:00:27. > :00:30.Good morning. Welcome to The Big Questions live from Leicester. I'm
:00:30. > :00:33.Nicky Campbell. Rowan Williams decision to stand down as
:00:34. > :00:40.Archbishop of Canterbury in December leaves Anglicans deeply
:00:40. > :00:45.split over saex- -- same-sex marriage and women priests. He said
:00:45. > :00:49.some conflicts won't go away, not everybody in in the Anglican
:00:49. > :00:53.commune or the Church of England is eager to avoid schism. So has the
:00:53. > :00:56.Church of England reached a crossroads? We have liberal and
:00:56. > :01:04.traditional Anglicans here to battle over the direction to take.
:01:04. > :01:07.This week, the anti-animal testing lobby won a victory. They persuaded
:01:07. > :01:11.ferry companies to join most airlines in refusing to transfer
:01:11. > :01:15.live animals to the UK. Is animal questioning ever justified? This
:01:15. > :01:20.medical researcher says drugs tested on animals, including
:01:20. > :01:23.monkeys have saved or improved countless human lives. It's the
:01:23. > :01:28.Spring Equinox on Tuesday. It's a time when we used to celebrate the
:01:28. > :01:32.return of the sun and the renewal of life with tributes to the gods
:01:32. > :01:37.and goddesses of fertility. Our last big question: Are many gods
:01:37. > :01:42.better than one? This Hindu says having deities with different faces
:01:42. > :01:44.gives people to choose the aspect refligs which means most to them.
:01:44. > :01:51.Welcome everything, to The Big Questions.
:01:51. > :01:53.APPLAUSE Well, it may be gooing to Rowan
:01:54. > :01:59.Williams but it's not goodbye to the splits to the Church of England
:01:59. > :02:04.and the wider Anglican commune. Here, battles are likely to
:02:04. > :02:09.intensify over women bishops, gay priests and homosexual marriage.
:02:09. > :02:13.The next Archbishop will have to cope with Africa's growing
:02:13. > :02:17.religious conservatism and America's dynamic liberal change.
:02:17. > :02:21.There are water shed moments ahead this year Rowan Williams said and
:02:21. > :02:26.his successor will need the constitution of an ox and the skin
:02:26. > :02:29.of a rhinoceros to deal with them. Has the Church of England reached a
:02:29. > :02:33.crossroads? Alison Ruoff from the synod good morning. Lovely to see
:02:33. > :02:39.you again. Thank you. It's whether to go back to traditionalism or
:02:39. > :02:44.head towards liberalism, it's a real choice, isn't it? No, not
:02:44. > :02:48.really. To go towards liberalism is just the wrong way totally. There's
:02:48. > :02:53.a signpost really in the Christian religion saying the Bible, that's
:02:53. > :02:58.the way, that's the map for every Christian. We need to stick with it.
:02:58. > :03:03.Liberalism has failed in the United States. Those churches which are
:03:03. > :03:06.very liberal are falling in numbers, likewise in this country and the
:03:06. > :03:11.churches where the Bible is preached and taught and people are
:03:11. > :03:15.living it out are growing. In the African churches for example.
:03:15. > :03:19.Definitely but also in this country. There are churches where there are
:03:19. > :03:24.solid biblical churches and they're growing and it's great. In Africa,
:03:25. > :03:31.the church refuses to condemn the death penalty for homosexuality and
:03:31. > :03:34.the it was reported yesterday the bishop of Nigeria referred to
:03:34. > :03:38.likened homosexuals to dogs. think that's wrong. Why do you want
:03:38. > :03:44.to have anything to do with these people? Well, I mean part of that
:03:45. > :03:48.is perhaps cultural. I think that's totally wrong. I would stand for
:03:48. > :03:52.the death penalty in this country for one or two things, but
:03:52. > :03:59.certainly not for homosexuality. I think it's absolutely frightful.
:03:59. > :04:02.But I think by and large that the churches in Africa, they say that
:04:02. > :04:06.the Christianity in Africa is a mile wide and an inch deep. There's
:04:06. > :04:13.a lot of truth in that. That's because of lack of biblical
:04:13. > :04:16.teaching. But to scandalise and to go against homosexuals in that way
:04:16. > :04:21.is completely wrong. Having said that, I'm against practising
:04:21. > :04:25.homosexuality as many will know. And Peter, as a Christian from
:04:25. > :04:30.Christian concern, you believe it's important that the state religion
:04:30. > :04:34.in England returns to biblical values, you know, when it comes to
:04:34. > :04:37.no women priests, no homosexual bishops, no gay marriage. You're
:04:37. > :04:41.with Alison on that, aren't you? There are a lot of things that have
:04:41. > :04:45.happened in our country lately, which have called into question the
:04:45. > :04:49.place of the church in society. The summer riots, the financial crisis
:04:49. > :04:54.and corruption in business and finance, same-sex marriage, all
:04:54. > :04:59.these things. So, the church is not there to just reflect the trends of
:04:59. > :05:02.society. It's there to be a voice. At its best, it challenges and also
:05:02. > :05:07.brings hope. On certain issues it will challenge and on certain
:05:08. > :05:12.issues it brings hope. It should be counter to British liberal values?
:05:12. > :05:15.Yes, on certain issues, yes. don't buy the idea that the church
:05:15. > :05:20.must stick to tradition. If you look back on the history of the
:05:20. > :05:25.church, some of the traditions included supported slavery and
:05:25. > :05:29.colonialism, it opposed votes for women. The church has changed. If
:05:29. > :05:33.it can change on those issues, if it can accept that women have the
:05:33. > :05:37.right to vote, why can't it change on same-sex marriage? We hear this
:05:37. > :05:43.all the time on slavery that Christians condoned slavery. Many
:05:43. > :05:49.of them did, they made that mistake. Who was the person who brought down
:05:49. > :05:53.slavery? William Wilberforce. Why? Because he looked at his Bible.
:05:53. > :05:58.Hang on. Men and women are created in the women of God. That's why he
:05:58. > :06:02.fought for it. Don't insult the many heroic black people who fought
:06:02. > :06:08.against slavery. APPLAUSE
:06:08. > :06:11.We're at the crossroads a return to biblical values? I don't know what
:06:11. > :06:15.they are exactly. What do you mean, what's the dog collar about then?
:06:15. > :06:18.It's actually looking to the Bible to find things that are
:06:18. > :06:21.inspirational. There are lots of things in the Bible which are not
:06:21. > :06:24.inspirational and I wouldn't go anywhere near some of the things
:06:24. > :06:27.written there. We use it in a way that's constructive, that is
:06:27. > :06:30.helpful, that enables society to move forward and for the church
:06:30. > :06:33.actually to be a realistic force in society for things that are good
:06:33. > :06:36.and beneficial and things that need to change.
:06:36. > :06:40.APPLAUSE Everybody in this room here is a
:06:40. > :06:43.beneficiary of the Liberal society. The church needs to reflect, the
:06:43. > :06:50.best there is, challenge the worst there is and actually enable people
:06:50. > :06:53.to move forward in a creative way. How did Jesus use the Bible? He
:06:53. > :07:01.based his life and ministry on the Bible and used it to challenge and
:07:01. > :07:05.bring hope. And the Jewish scriptures? There wasn't a New
:07:05. > :07:09.Testament until the end of the fourth century. We need to get a
:07:09. > :07:12.bit real about it. Don't throw out phrases like what the Bible teaches
:07:12. > :07:16.when there's a wealth of material there. Some of it is very helpful
:07:16. > :07:21.and some of it actually not. are we to pick and choose? We do it
:07:21. > :07:29.all oo the time. The people who put the Bible together pickened and
:07:29. > :07:34.choose. -- picked and chose. In the Bible is says categorically men
:07:34. > :07:43.must not cut the corners of their beard. You're clean shaven. You're
:07:43. > :07:47.not obeying the Bible. Chris Sugden, you're looking exasperated. There's
:07:47. > :07:51.a simplistic discussion going on here which I think canon David
:07:51. > :07:57.knows better that the discussion about how the Bible is the word of
:07:57. > :08:01.God, about how it's received as the word of God, as Peter mentioned.
:08:01. > :08:05.Jesus received the scriptures as the word of God. Jesus spoke in his
:08:05. > :08:15.own way to say Moses said to you, but I say to you, his words with
:08:15. > :08:16.
:08:16. > :08:21.the word of God. Paul and his epistles. And Canon David knows
:08:21. > :08:23.very well indeed there's a complex and sophisticated argument about
:08:23. > :08:27.how we receive the Bible as scriptures but that the Church of
:08:27. > :08:32.England has always received the Bible properly interpreted as
:08:32. > :08:36.supreme in faith and conduct. Precisely Chris, properly
:08:36. > :08:38.interpreted. We use our God given wisdom and reason, that's one of
:08:38. > :08:41.the bench marks of the Church of England that we bring reason to
:08:41. > :08:46.bear upon this to find what is constructive and what is helpful
:08:46. > :08:51.for the flourishing of human life. That means respecting other people,
:08:51. > :08:56.who we may disagree with or not like. You know Jesus actual think
:08:56. > :08:59.changed some of the traditions. That's the other point. Kristina,
:08:59. > :09:02.you're very supportive of gay marriage and you're supportive of
:09:02. > :09:06.women bishops, as we know, from your stance and previous
:09:06. > :09:10.appearances on this programme and indeed, of homosexual clergy.
:09:10. > :09:13.They're never going to be, with respect to Alison, she's not going
:09:13. > :09:19.to be and Chris isn't going to be and Peter isn't going to be. Isn't
:09:19. > :09:24.it time to just wave a fond farewell to each other? Not at all.
:09:24. > :09:27.First of all, we don't have to get back to biblical values. The
:09:27. > :09:32.crossroad is not getting back to them. We stand on biblical values
:09:32. > :09:36.in the Church of England. The church is not deeply divided on
:09:36. > :09:40.women's issues. The church has for years said how much it wants women
:09:40. > :09:45.to hold the same positions of authority in the church as men.
:09:45. > :09:49.They say no. What I say is that, as they have accused me of following
:09:49. > :09:54.the spirit of the age as if the Holy Spirit of God is not in our
:09:54. > :09:58.age. Sometimes I feel our society, which don't forget, is founded on
:09:58. > :10:01.Christian values and Christian principles, our law is founded on
:10:01. > :10:09.Christian values, which you will find in the old and new test
:10:09. > :10:13.yaments. We're a deeply tradition aling Christian country. Yes there
:10:13. > :10:19.are many things we can amend and many that we ignore at our peril.
:10:19. > :10:23.We're at exciting crossroads. Let's go forward. Let's not be so risk
:10:24. > :10:28.averse. Let's listen to what we're guided to say and open up and be
:10:28. > :10:35.conscious above everything of spreading the love of God and of
:10:35. > :10:40.getting the good news of Jesus Christ out there. Alison? If we,
:10:40. > :10:44.you're saying we're at this crossroads, if this nation wants to
:10:44. > :10:50.remain a Christian nation and I still believe that it is, after all
:10:50. > :10:56.70% would say they believe in the Christian God, but 70% don't go to
:10:56. > :11:02.church. I still think that we are in real peril of this nation of
:11:02. > :11:05.walking away from biblical truth. I say biblical truth because...
:11:05. > :11:10.mean something different from what other people mean and we're both
:11:11. > :11:14.Christians Alison. But you pick and mix and see certain things. I'm not
:11:14. > :11:20.picking mixing at all. The Church of England is a broad church. It
:11:20. > :11:24.has to encompass Chris, it has to encompass Kristina. Why? Why don't
:11:24. > :11:27.you go your own ways? It's been like that all along. For some
:11:27. > :11:32.reason now people have become so... You go with the Americans. You go
:11:32. > :11:37.with the Africans. We agree on most of the important things. We agree
:11:37. > :11:44.there is a God. We agree that God is a God of love. These things are
:11:44. > :11:48.a given. God is a God of judgment too. You hear time and again from
:11:48. > :11:53.the pull pits, he's a God of love, love, love and love and you forget
:11:53. > :11:56.about the other side of his character. And that's what? The God
:11:56. > :12:01.of judgment and justice. That's where we're in trouble. I don't go
:12:01. > :12:06.with a schizophrenic God. That's what the Bible says. It's not me.
:12:06. > :12:10.Actually God is either love or not love. I actually think... He is
:12:10. > :12:16.both. The judgment comes when we come face to face with God and we
:12:17. > :12:22.are aware of our own failings and also we understand what God
:12:22. > :12:26.presents and that's our own built- in judgment ultimately. We all have
:12:26. > :12:30.consciences. Yes pt The Holy Spirit works in our lives if we allow him
:12:30. > :12:35.to. We can easily cut him out. interesting having this debate in
:12:35. > :12:39.the way we're having it. Let's talk about animal testing, if you like.
:12:39. > :12:44.Rather than gay priests or same-sex marriages I'm more worried about
:12:44. > :12:46.what the Charles Kennedy is going to do than some of -- what the
:12:46. > :12:53.Chancellor of the exchequer is going to do next week with the
:12:53. > :12:56.budget. It's a massive issue, it's been boiling since Jeffrey John, he
:12:57. > :13:01.was the celibate gay bishop. It's been boiling for years. It's coming
:13:01. > :13:05.to a head and it seems to be irreconcilable. The Church of
:13:05. > :13:09.England is the established church of this country. The head of state
:13:09. > :13:13.must be a member of the church. The Church of England has privileges.
:13:13. > :13:17.Its schools are state funded. It has 26 bishops uneleblgted which
:13:17. > :13:22.sit in the House of Lords. When I hear this squabbling church I think
:13:22. > :13:27.it should be disestablished. It's unfit to be the official church of
:13:28. > :13:32.this country. There's no greater sop riffic than listening to the
:13:32. > :13:38.incertainly wranglings of Anglicans. It seems clear to me that they
:13:38. > :13:41.cannot exist past 2018 and the next great meegt. This church has to
:13:41. > :13:45.split up. The question should be which bit are we going to carry
:13:45. > :13:50.forward as the established church of this country. It seems so
:13:50. > :13:56.obvious. They don't believe in any of the same things beyond the given
:13:56. > :14:00.like we believe in God. We do. What I would say, is yes we're skwarlg
:14:00. > :14:03.now and how unfortunate, but what people don't see along with the
:14:03. > :14:06.great privileges that the Church of England has in being the
:14:06. > :14:12.established church is the huge responsibilities. We're out in the
:14:12. > :14:17.parishes, across the land day in, day out, millions of volunteers. We
:14:17. > :14:21.give away more money than the BBC Children In Need appeal raises
:14:21. > :14:25.every year. We are there in some of the most deprived communities and
:14:25. > :14:28.do huge amount of good. I think it's a terrible shame that our
:14:28. > :14:34.squabbling is getting precedence over this. But that's another thing.
:14:34. > :14:39.We are open. We are able to squabble without a dictat coming
:14:39. > :14:49.and shutting us down. You aren't able to squabble. You just lost the
:14:49. > :14:51.
:14:51. > :14:54.arch bib op of Canterbury because Yes, you had your hand up.
:14:54. > :14:58.thought we lived in a secular society and I don't see why we
:14:58. > :15:03.should be involved in this argument over whether we have an established
:15:03. > :15:08.religion in this country. I am an atheist, I am happy to be one. You
:15:08. > :15:11.guys can argue about this as much as you want, but you don't need to
:15:11. > :15:15.have a legislature that affects me as a result of that. David, you
:15:16. > :15:20.would like, wouldn't you, you would like the opportunity down the line
:15:20. > :15:24.somewhere, perhaps with incremental change it will come, to preside
:15:24. > :15:30.over the marriage in a Church of a same-sex couple. Yes. Wye like to
:15:30. > :15:33.be able to do that. APPLAUSE. recognise that the legislation
:15:33. > :15:38.being proposed at the moment has no impact upon the Church and the
:15:38. > :15:44.Church will have to make up its own mind through processes, the the
:15:44. > :15:47.Church of England t may well come to a position it may open up gay
:15:47. > :15:50.marriage. But it will go through due process. If and when that
:15:50. > :15:54.happens and certainly who would have thought either of you, Chris
:15:54. > :15:58.or Alice, who would have thought we would have 20 years ago civil
:15:58. > :16:03.partnerships. You are right. when that happens will you - could
:16:03. > :16:07.you possibly be part of the same Church that allows that?
:16:07. > :16:10.absolutely not. You may not have a choice... I will have a choice.
:16:10. > :16:13.Because I will walk away from the Church of England. You will have to
:16:13. > :16:17.perhaps because what's going to happen as soon as this hits the
:16:17. > :16:22.statue books is human rights law is going to be invoked by campaigners
:16:22. > :16:25.to try and force all churches, not just the Anglicans, but Catholics
:16:25. > :16:30.and imams as well to perform gay gay marriages and that's going to
:16:30. > :16:34.open up the most terrific war between gays and churches and
:16:34. > :16:37.that's what worries me about it, when you get imams being told
:16:37. > :16:40.according to human rights law they must perform gay marriages if
:16:40. > :16:45.they're asked then you are going to see a war and the Government will
:16:45. > :16:49.have a big problem. The Government has made it quite clear that the
:16:49. > :16:55.proposals for same-sex marriages apply only in civil ceremonies in
:16:55. > :16:59.register offices, they will have no impact on religious institutions.
:16:59. > :17:02.That's not the way the law works. There will be no successful legal
:17:02. > :17:06.challenge to that because, for example, the Roman Catholic Church
:17:06. > :17:09.forbids divorce and even though divorce is lawful in a civil court
:17:09. > :17:14.there's never been a successful challenge or anybody trying to
:17:14. > :17:18.challenge the Catholic Church as right to deny rights on divorce.
:17:18. > :17:24.don't think you can say that with much certainty as you are. Chris,
:17:24. > :17:29.the situation which pertains at present that you can be a clergyman,
:17:29. > :17:35.but if you are gay, if you have those inclinations but you must be
:17:35. > :17:39.sell -- celibate. Is that not an invitation to dishonesty, perhaps
:17:39. > :17:43.hypocrisy? There have always been people with same-sex inclinations
:17:43. > :17:46.in the Church. The Christian teaching has always been that
:17:46. > :17:49.marriage is between a man and a woman for life, and that
:17:49. > :17:54.faithfulness should be between those two people. Any sexual
:17:54. > :17:58.behaviour, whether heterosexual or homosexual, outside that... Outside
:17:58. > :18:03.marriage? This sounds like an argument for same-sex marriage
:18:03. > :18:07.perhaps. Marriage between a man and woman as given in the script tures,
:18:08. > :18:13.is against God's will and purpose and best for human flourishing and
:18:13. > :18:19.is not only a doctrine, it is proved by experience. But I would
:18:19. > :18:22.like to address some of the oppositions of this discussion. A
:18:22. > :18:25.secular society, what do you mean by that? Do you mean a society in
:18:25. > :18:29.which those with religious convictions have no contribution to
:18:29. > :18:34.make? I am looking at the at the gentleman who raised the issue or
:18:34. > :18:37.do you mean a society where all contributions to the discussion of
:18:38. > :18:43.the public good are welcome, including religious ones? I hope
:18:43. > :18:47.you mean the latter, because if you mean the former we are into
:18:47. > :18:51.dictation by the state and it's precisely that issue on which the
:18:51. > :18:56.Church has stood for centuries. The Earl kreu kreu -- early Christians
:18:56. > :19:01.were faced with a Roman culture which said it's going to be good if
:19:01. > :19:04.we bind everybody together. Christians went to the lions and
:19:04. > :19:08.the stake because they said no to that and we have to be discerning
:19:08. > :19:13.about what the holy spirit says, we have to be discerning about our
:19:13. > :19:18.culture, and that is where the only reliable source in terms of the
:19:18. > :19:25.Church of England teaching is the bible as interpreted. Peter, this
:19:25. > :19:29.issue about being able to be a bishop, for example, but celibate,
:19:29. > :19:34.is that an invitation to dishonesty and hypocrisy? Absolutely. The fact
:19:34. > :19:38.the Church will not face the reality that probably a third of
:19:38. > :19:43.Anglican priests and probably 40% of Catholic priests are homosexual,
:19:43. > :19:47.that is a huge massive self-denial. Where do you get statistics?
:19:47. > :19:50.Different surveys by organisations working within the Church, in the
:19:50. > :19:56.United States, here, Australia. Figures are all much the same.
:19:56. > :20:00.There is huge dishonesty. I think, you know, the reality is that those
:20:00. > :20:04.clergy, gay or straight, provide ministry, they should be accepted
:20:04. > :20:08.for who they are. If they're in a loving long-term same-sex
:20:08. > :20:12.relationship, I don't see any fundamental moral reasons why
:20:12. > :20:22.churches should not accept them because churches are supposed to be
:20:22. > :20:28.
:20:28. > :20:33.about the value validation of love and commitment. These exchanges
:20:33. > :20:39.have been interesting but also painful for me, if Christianity is
:20:39. > :20:44.at a crossroads, which way are you going to turn and whatever
:20:44. > :20:48.shortcomings the Anglican community worldwide or Church of England have
:20:48. > :20:52.there are so many pluses about you and at times I wish we as Muslims
:20:52. > :20:55.could unify our ranks the way you have managed over centuries and the
:20:55. > :20:58.good that the Christians have done for this world and continue to do
:20:58. > :21:02.for today is something to be rejoiced and celebrated. Just
:21:02. > :21:04.reflect on the relationships that other faith communities in this
:21:04. > :21:09.country enjoy with the Christian community under the leadership of
:21:09. > :21:13.the Archbishop and others before him. It's fantastic. It's a signal
:21:13. > :21:17.to the world that we do not need to be at each other's throats. You
:21:17. > :21:20.have your differences, we agree to disagree and hold hands and move
:21:20. > :21:25.along and do good for humanity. That is where the strength of
:21:26. > :21:33.Christians lies and I have seen it in my short exposure to
:21:33. > :21:41.Christianity, that you guys are really good at taking care...
:21:41. > :21:49.we heard from the next Archbishop! But then... That's gracious of you.
:21:49. > :21:54.You will leave the Church if Kristina and David have their way.
:21:54. > :22:01.Only if they're forced out, this is the iraou. No someone going to
:22:01. > :22:08.force you out. Who would force you out? Liberalism plus, plus. Hold on.
:22:08. > :22:13.We are face ago vote in July, a General Synod on consecration of
:22:13. > :22:19.women. There is a big issue at the moment as to whether people who for
:22:19. > :22:23.theological reasons cannot accept that. Women bishops you mean.
:22:23. > :22:29.remain in the Church of England with security, rather than in a
:22:29. > :22:33.sort of condescending way at other people's pleasure. That's the big
:22:33. > :22:37.issue. That's an issue the House of Bishops is looking at and my
:22:37. > :22:42.concern is that on this matter, as on other matters, what we are
:22:43. > :22:46.facing with is incrementalism. Peter... Can I jump in. Can I
:22:46. > :22:52.finish. Peter has said no way will the Church be forced to celebrate
:22:52. > :22:55.gay marriages unless it wanted - we were told in 2005 when the civil
:22:55. > :23:00.partnerships act, that no way is this gay marriage, no way will the
:23:00. > :23:06.Church be required to do this. Now we have that they can be... Before
:23:06. > :23:09.the election in May 2010 Conservatives released contract of
:23:09. > :23:14.equalities saying they were going to do this. I don't think you will
:23:14. > :23:17.find in any of the election manifestoes that... Seven days
:23:17. > :23:20.before the election. It said this will be something they will be
:23:20. > :23:27.considering and then the Prime Minister actually publicly stated
:23:27. > :23:31.this is what he wanted to do. Unlike as is usually the case with
:23:31. > :23:34.Green Papers and White Papers and a genuine consultation, the
:23:34. > :23:37.consultation over gay marriage is only one in name because the
:23:37. > :23:41.decisions are already been made, this is a consultation about how to
:23:41. > :23:45.implement it, not whether to do it. It's been raced through because the
:23:45. > :23:52.decision has been made. We will see about that. Let's skate back to
:23:52. > :23:56.women bishops. Half the human race after all, women bishops has been
:23:56. > :24:02.on the agenda of General Synod for over 30 years. It was nearly passed
:24:02. > :24:10.in a debate in 1978. It fell narrowly in one House, then it was
:24:10. > :24:15.the House of Clergy. We have debated this ad nauseum and the
:24:15. > :24:20.people in the pews want women to have the same opportunity and no
:24:20. > :24:25.one, let me just say this, absolutely categorically, no one is
:24:25. > :24:30.forcing anyone out. The only way you can stay in is to not walk out.
:24:30. > :24:34.In terms of talking about security, what are we talking about? Security
:24:34. > :24:39.from holy women? It's insulting this type of talk. There are so
:24:39. > :24:43.many safeguards built in already into the code of practice and to -
:24:43. > :24:45.Chris is talking about is wanting to put into legislation itself
:24:45. > :24:50.something that distinguishes against bishops on the basis of
:24:50. > :24:59.whether they're male and female. And that is not only discriminatory,
:24:59. > :25:03.it's offensive. To the audience. alarms me that we are talking about
:25:03. > :25:07.whether we want this to go left or right, this shouldn't be political.
:25:07. > :25:10.This is your faith, this is not something that you want people to
:25:10. > :25:16.ballot on. You need to make the decision amongst yourselves is what
:25:17. > :25:20.I am saying. That would be nice. Yes, Sir here. I think the question
:25:20. > :25:24.is about who is the Church for, if it's for the people it should
:25:24. > :25:31.listen to the people. Or else it becomes a self-preservation society.
:25:31. > :25:41.It must listen to God and the Bible, not the people. How does God speak,
:25:41. > :25:41.
:25:41. > :25:45.through people. He speaks through his word. Actually Jesus. That's
:25:45. > :25:51.the usual mistake people make, they confuse the word in the form of
:25:51. > :25:55.Jesus with words about him. Jesus was the woed made -- word made
:25:55. > :26:01.flesh. The Bible is God's word in its entirity. The life and
:26:01. > :26:09.teachings and what Jesus did is preeminent in the Christian faith
:26:09. > :26:16.absolutely, and of course I am as pweubl biblically based as you are
:26:16. > :26:20.Alison. That's a matter of opinion. No, it's a matter of fact.
:26:20. > :26:24.gentleman here and the suit of the morning! I think the Church should
:26:25. > :26:28.be guided by the word of God. What is sin should remain sin. We can't
:26:28. > :26:34.change God, can't change the word of God. We should remember that
:26:34. > :26:38.there are examples in the word of God, They tried to change God's
:26:38. > :26:43.view on sin and there were consequences, what this nation
:26:43. > :26:48.needs is that revival. Alison talked about... More judgment?
:26:48. > :26:52.Judgmental God. People need to know what God says and what God expects
:26:52. > :26:57.from people. We can't try to change the word and try to say same-sex
:26:57. > :27:00.relationship, God says it's OK. are not looking happy. God speaks
:27:00. > :27:05.through loving God-like lives and we can witness those, we can
:27:05. > :27:09.evidence them. We can experience them. We don't need a book that we
:27:09. > :27:13.use as a weapon. We need to be able to experience how tkpod actually --
:27:13. > :27:16.God actually axe in the world -- acts in the world today with all
:27:16. > :27:20.the issues we have to face. Let's pray you find some compromise
:27:20. > :27:26.position and it all ends well. Or proceeds well for you. Thank you
:27:26. > :27:32.very much indeed for taking part in that debate.
:27:32. > :27:34.If would you like to have your say about that one, please log on to
:27:34. > :27:39.our website and you will find ways to continue the discussions online.
:27:39. > :27:43.We are also debating live this morning from the Samworth
:27:43. > :27:47.Enterprise Academy in Leicester, is animal testing ever justified? And
:27:47. > :27:50.are many gods better than one? Tell us what you think about those
:27:50. > :27:55.topics and send us your ideas for future debates or comments you
:27:55. > :27:58.would like to make about the programme.
:27:58. > :28:03.Nobody likes the idea of animals suffering in the name of beauty to
:28:03. > :28:06.test cosmetics but it's hard tore condemn scientists -- harder to
:28:06. > :28:10.condemn scientists who have used animals to research cures for
:28:10. > :28:14.Alzheimer's or a srabg even against malaria or to develop life support
:28:14. > :28:21.systems to help premature babies to survive. Is animal testing ever
:28:21. > :28:28.justified? We have Professor John Stein from Oxford Functional
:28:28. > :28:32.Neurosurgery group. You have done pioneering research on Parkinson's,
:28:32. > :28:40.haven't you, which has involved animal testing and testing on
:28:40. > :28:45.monkeys. Primates. How did you feel about that? Like the majority of
:28:46. > :28:50.people in this country I believe that animal testing is justified
:28:50. > :28:56.for the improvement of medicines and treatments and what I have done
:28:56. > :29:01.with primates I am proud of, because it has led to many, many
:29:01. > :29:05.thousands of people being improved in their lives, not just with
:29:05. > :29:08.Parkinsons, but work I did in monkeys, understanding how they
:29:08. > :29:12.move their eyes, has helped me to understand children with reading
:29:12. > :29:17.disorders. And what was done to the monkeys to facilitate you getting
:29:17. > :29:22.that information about how children read? I was cooling a part of the
:29:22. > :29:26.brain, not painful at all, in order to cease the functioning
:29:26. > :29:29.temporarily of part of the brain that we know in humans is important
:29:30. > :29:34.for reading. What that did was to change the way in which the animals
:29:34. > :29:44.moved their eyes from that we could deduce things about how children
:29:44. > :29:45.
:29:45. > :29:48.learn to read, the way they move For how long? For about half an
:29:48. > :29:54.hour. The rest of the time they were in gang cages playing with
:29:54. > :29:58.their mates. If there weren't the moral qualms about the higher prime
:29:58. > :30:07.Yates. Which we don't use at all. Would you if you could? No. Why do
:30:07. > :30:11.you draw the line? Because I think we have to have a regard to the
:30:11. > :30:17.level of intelligence of the monkeys to try and decide whether
:30:17. > :30:21.or not they are undergoing any sufferinging. At what point is it
:30:21. > :30:26.unacceptable, orangutans? All great apes are out of the question, I
:30:26. > :30:30.think. That is enshrined in law, as you know. If it weren't enshrined
:30:30. > :30:34.in law, I was investigating the principle. Would put a caveat on
:30:34. > :30:38.that. If it were shown to be the case that a particular very, very
:30:38. > :30:43.killing disease could only be modelled in great apes, and people
:30:43. > :30:49.were dying in thousands, then I would relax that prohibition.
:30:49. > :30:52.you? Yes, because in that case, if I could be reasonably sure of
:30:52. > :30:57.developing a cure for a disease that was killing thousands of
:30:57. > :31:01.people, then that would trump, as it were, my worries about the
:31:01. > :31:05.cognitive state of the ape. That's a very, very unlikely situation.
:31:05. > :31:09.Your argument is a utilitarian one. That some suffering is justified
:31:09. > :31:12.for the greater good. I didn't say anything about suffering. There is
:31:12. > :31:16.a problem here. People think the animals suffer. In all the
:31:16. > :31:24.experiments I do - There's no question about whether animals
:31:24. > :31:28.suffer. It's concerning that that people who dot skpairpts seem to
:31:28. > :31:34.deny that. All the experiments we do are done, if we're at all
:31:34. > :31:38.invasive and by the way, 95% of experiments are genetic
:31:38. > :31:44.modification experiments so they don't involve any sort of invasive
:31:44. > :31:52.activity, but if we are going to be invasive, all the surge vi done
:31:52. > :31:57.under anaesthetic, under close supervision than many human
:31:57. > :32:01.operations in fact. When we put this cooling plate on the pain, the
:32:01. > :32:05.brain has no pain receptors and therefore it is not painful. If it
:32:05. > :32:08.were, the monkey would not do the kinds of things that we train them
:32:08. > :32:16.to do, like tracking a moving target with their arm. They enjoy
:32:16. > :32:19.the game, just as children enjoy video games. How can you say that?
:32:19. > :32:23.They cannot be said to be suffering. The problem is how can you say
:32:23. > :32:26.they're enjoying it, when they don't have a voice? My question
:32:26. > :32:30.regarding experiment with the vision and the monkeys, keeping
:32:30. > :32:35.their eyes open... Not keeping their eyes open. They were just
:32:35. > :32:39.normal monkeys. Why not use MEG, a brain scanner that is able, without
:32:39. > :32:44.using animals at all, to gauge vision, cog any sans, all sorts of
:32:44. > :32:48.things that do with the brain. That is available now?
:32:48. > :32:52.APPLAUSE We also use MEG scanners, we use
:32:52. > :32:58.FMRI, many techniques that some people say could dispense with the
:32:58. > :33:06.need to use monkeys. However, none of those techniques can match the
:33:06. > :33:11.complexity of the brain. I don't agree. Have you spoke ton Professor
:33:11. > :33:17.Furlon as the Aston brain centre? He can explain quite a lot. There's
:33:17. > :33:19.a lot of things you can do with MEG than with other things, so less
:33:20. > :33:22.experiments will be necessary. As we go on, more and more techniques
:33:22. > :33:27.will be available. There's another technique which has been spoken
:33:27. > :33:31.about on the radio this week, which was a case, not yours, but monkeys
:33:31. > :33:35.having their skulls opened and their eyes forced open for five
:33:35. > :33:41.days, that was in the name of general research, finding out the
:33:41. > :33:45.effect of light on the eyes. Does that bother you Tom? So long as all
:33:45. > :33:48.the refinement techniques, enrichment techniques are there to
:33:48. > :33:51.ensure animal suffering is minimised wherever it may exist. I
:33:51. > :33:55.do accept there is certainly going to be some level of discomfort to
:33:55. > :34:01.animals. I think we have a duty to ensure that animal welfare is
:34:01. > :34:04.prioritised. I agree. We have an even greater priority to ensure
:34:04. > :34:07.that we allow people around to have the treatments tomorrow so that
:34:07. > :34:12.people aren't dying of cancer. So that people aren't dying of HIV.
:34:12. > :34:17.There are so many diseases which are scourges on humanity and we
:34:17. > :34:21.have a chance and a duty to try to prevent them. Most of the disease
:34:21. > :34:26.that's are scourges, most of the things that people die prematurely
:34:26. > :34:29.of are things we can already cure. People die for the want of mosquito
:34:29. > :34:33.nets that will prevent them suffering malairya. As a society
:34:33. > :34:38.we're turning away from that. We're not doing all we can to stop human
:34:38. > :34:41.suffering. Yet somehow we're saying we have a moral obligation to
:34:41. > :34:46.inflict others on animals. Give us an idea of the stress you believe
:34:46. > :34:50.they suffer Alastair? Well, the range is enormous. It is very
:34:50. > :34:52.disturbing to hear a suggestion they don't suffer. For instance,
:34:52. > :34:56.some of the animals not being transported into this country
:34:56. > :35:00.because of this story, are mice genetically engineered to develop
:35:00. > :35:04.cancer. I think everyone with any moral sense whatsoever feels a
:35:04. > :35:10.sense of revulsion, what can it possibly be other than wrong to
:35:10. > :35:13.create a being that can suffer pain in the same way as we do, we do
:35:14. > :35:18.pain research on animals and inflict that suffering upon it.
:35:18. > :35:23.have been talking about brains, but I would say it's a no brainer that
:35:23. > :35:29.we can use animals in order to serve, to find an end to human
:35:29. > :35:33.suffering. All animals? No, no, but what Professor Stein is right.
:35:33. > :35:39.draw the line. Listen to his hesitancy for crossing the line
:35:39. > :35:42.with using great apes and only for great reluctance. My mother died of
:35:42. > :35:47.severe Parkinson's, I promise you, if I could have helped her not to
:35:47. > :35:50.suffer for the last 20 years of her life and I hope that we get right
:35:50. > :35:55.perspective on this. The animals that are used for pre-clinical
:35:55. > :35:58.trials, that means so that you and I don't ever have to enter a trial
:35:58. > :36:03.on it. When clinical trials are made on human beings, there's a
:36:03. > :36:06.chance that they even could suffer. But a much less chance thanks to
:36:06. > :36:10.the pre-clinical trials done on rats and mice and monkeys. And I'm
:36:10. > :36:14.all for. It I'm grateful Professor Stein is here to talk about it and
:36:14. > :36:20.show that it's acceptable. Peter, why do you think this is not our
:36:20. > :36:24.right as a species? First of all, we humans are animals. To suggest
:36:24. > :36:29.there's some great gulf between us and other animals is nonsense. Of
:36:29. > :36:34.course, we are more civilised and cultured and greater intellectual
:36:34. > :36:41.compassities. But we are part of the animal kingdom. Other animals
:36:41. > :36:46.have sent yepbs. They feel pain and suffering. They have basic emotions,
:36:46. > :36:50.cognisance. To treat them as objects for our benefit is morally
:36:50. > :36:53.wrong and the argument for the other side... Are you vegetarian?
:36:53. > :36:57.The argument the other side is that suffering is justified for the
:36:57. > :37:01.greater good. The logic of that is that we should then experiment on
:37:01. > :37:05.humans, because humans should be sacrificed for the greater good. I
:37:05. > :37:11.don't believe that for one moment. There's a lady there, you've had
:37:11. > :37:16.your hand up for a long time. have an issue to take up with you.
:37:16. > :37:21.You say there's no suffer on the experiments you carry out on their
:37:21. > :37:24.monkeys. From the moment they are ripped from the wild - By the way...
:37:24. > :37:28.The suffering begins. They are injured in the process. Many of
:37:28. > :37:32.them even die in the transportation process, which can last up to 56
:37:32. > :37:37.hours. And by the time they arrive here they have suffered enough
:37:37. > :37:41.before the experiments that you deliberately and intentionally
:37:41. > :37:47.inflict upon these creatures begins. All the monkeys I use are
:37:47. > :37:54.actually... You deny akstos fresh water. You deny -- access to fresh
:37:54. > :37:59.water. These animals are bred here, not ripped from the jungles. Bred
:37:59. > :38:05.in cages. Social animals denied their natural habitat. OK, Tom's
:38:05. > :38:14.going to give us some perspective. This is less than one in 1,000
:38:14. > :38:18.animals is a monkey used in research. 95% are mice, rats, fish
:38:18. > :38:21.and birds. Many of which we would find on our dinner plate or in a
:38:21. > :38:25.trap. If you believe that animal suffering is the most important
:38:25. > :38:34.thing, why is it that you are not campaigning against the millions,
:38:35. > :38:39.hundreds of millions of animals that we eat? Can I just say, Peter
:38:39. > :38:42.you are starting to sound as though you're coming from a Pagan
:38:42. > :38:46.perspective with the moral notion that animals have a spiritual
:38:46. > :38:49.existence as well. I agree with that completely. That's right.
:38:49. > :38:53.That's something we aren't considering enough, there's an
:38:54. > :38:57.ethical point in a matter of belief as well as a social point about the
:38:57. > :39:03.way we experiment on animals. There's a morality that needs to be
:39:03. > :39:06.considered on a wider level. Scientifically as well, looking at
:39:06. > :39:09.the facts, the animal model is flawed. There are hundreds of
:39:09. > :39:14.scientists from top universities around the world who say that the
:39:14. > :39:19.animal model is flawed. I'd also say that using animals as well is
:39:19. > :39:22.also economically more expensive. Our taxes are actually paying for
:39:22. > :39:29.failures. Nine out of ten drugs tested on animals successfully,
:39:29. > :39:34.fail in humans. This is a very important point. John, could you do,
:39:34. > :39:40.could you have made the advances without animals? No, I could not
:39:40. > :39:47.have done so. We also use slide rules for years. Now we're using
:39:47. > :39:50.computers. Without being able to experiment on monkeys I would not
:39:50. > :39:56.have been able to find the part of the brain that we have found that
:39:56. > :39:59.when we stimulate it, we can reduce many of the symptoms of Parkinson's
:39:59. > :40:04.disease, which are otherwise incurable. I think that's an
:40:05. > :40:12.advance we should be proud of and it's because of the sacrifice of
:40:12. > :40:17.something like five monkeys. Now I think that is worthwhile, if we
:40:17. > :40:21.care about our human brethren more than we do about animals. What
:40:21. > :40:24.would you like to say? Good morning. Good morning. It is completely
:40:24. > :40:27.acceptable when people say that animal testing is not a good thing
:40:27. > :40:31.to do. Because it is a cruelty towards animals. But we also have
:40:31. > :40:35.to think that considering as a human race and it was rightly said
:40:35. > :40:39.that we also are animals, why are we putting them, doing all that and
:40:40. > :40:43.why are we doing testing on them? But if you're saying that as a
:40:43. > :40:48.science we need to proceed further, we can just give the medicines as
:40:48. > :40:53.they are. They have to grow. When the science is growing, when the
:40:53. > :40:57.technology is growing, when we discover new medicines, why is no
:40:57. > :41:01.human coming ahead and if we can sign a consent, sign it and say do
:41:01. > :41:05.testing on me. No-one is ready to do that.
:41:05. > :41:09.We haven't heard from you Sir. think it's unacceptable initially
:41:09. > :41:13.to think that somehow animals don't have the same level of pain and
:41:13. > :41:17.suffering emotionally and physically in the same way we do.
:41:17. > :41:22.Why is it acceptable to allow one animal to suffer so that we can
:41:22. > :41:27.live? We are all animals. Why is our health any more important than
:41:27. > :41:31.the animals. I would suggest that the pain the animals suffer is very
:41:31. > :41:36.likely to be much more than the pain the human being suffer because
:41:36. > :41:39.the animals live at the level of the senses. Their senses are highly
:41:39. > :41:43.accentuated. Pain they feel may be much more perhaps than we can
:41:43. > :41:48.imagine. We need to be very careful. In days past, we were doing
:41:48. > :41:51.experiments on human beings, in the lower wrungs of society n. Days to
:41:51. > :41:56.come, I think we with will see animal experimentation as a
:41:56. > :41:58.barbaric idea. As intelligent civilised people we
:41:58. > :42:02.have a moral duty towards vulnerable animals. They can't
:42:02. > :42:10.speak for themselves. We have a duty to protect them. It's a duty
:42:10. > :42:14.of moral stewardship of fellow animals. Chris? I'm glad that word
:42:14. > :42:18.stewardship has been introduced. It comes directly out of the Bible,
:42:18. > :42:22.where God gives the stewardship for the creation, including the animals
:42:22. > :42:28.for shepherdly care in the hands of human beings and that is the basis
:42:28. > :42:34.on which we can assert properly, with humility that there is a
:42:34. > :42:38.priority as the professor said in our accountability and sponts. When
:42:38. > :42:45.you take God out of equation, you end up with these inevitable,
:42:45. > :42:50.unresolvable conflicts. Where we would be without unresolvable
:42:50. > :42:53.conflicts on a Sunday? If you look at all the great moral problems,
:42:53. > :42:56.great suffering, they tend to rely on the notion that the suffering of
:42:56. > :43:00.others is somehow less important than the suffering of me or those I
:43:00. > :43:05.care about or others. Suffering is suffering. It doesn't matter who is
:43:05. > :43:10.suffering. We have a duty not to impose it on anyone or anything.
:43:10. > :43:15.Sorry, last word. I must say something, when I spoke to somebody
:43:15. > :43:19.on Five Live about this during the week, a geneticist, I said
:43:19. > :43:25.experiments on dogs. He said yes, but it's not your dog, Nicky. I
:43:25. > :43:28.thought that was a moral abrogaigs. It's like seeing a child starving
:43:28. > :43:32.in Ethiopia. It's not my child, John, it's still suffering. I want
:43:32. > :43:36.to talk about the suffering, because one of the problems that is
:43:36. > :43:40.occurring because of the effective ban on transport of animals that
:43:40. > :43:45.has been achieved, I'm afraid to say by activists, is that the
:43:45. > :43:49.animals suffer more in two ways. One, because they can't take the
:43:49. > :43:51.easiest and quickest and most, least suffering route to wherever
:43:51. > :43:58.they're going to be transported because these experiments will take
:43:58. > :44:02.place. And also, they take place in countries that don't care about
:44:02. > :44:11.animal suffering as much as I do. Thank you all very much indeed. If
:44:11. > :44:16.you have views about that debate, log onto bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions.
:44:16. > :44:20.Send us your views. Are many gods better than one? If you'd like to
:44:20. > :44:30.be in the show e-mail audiencetbq@mentorn.tv. We're in
:44:30. > :44:33.
:44:33. > :44:38.Birmingham next week, Bury April The classical Romans and Greeks had
:44:38. > :44:42.gods and goddesses for every aspect of life, the an seupbt Hindu
:44:42. > :44:45.religion tells tales of the exploits of many deities which
:44:45. > :44:51.still bear lessons for believers today. But Christians, Jews,
:44:51. > :44:56.Muslims are required to believe in one God. Are Are many gods better -
:44:56. > :45:00.good morning again, how are you. Many gods better than one, Hinduism
:45:00. > :45:03.is an interesting religion, been reading about it a lot. Very
:45:03. > :45:10.complex, very flexible and many people believe many different
:45:10. > :45:17.things. Indeed. But some of whom believe in many gods and goddesses.
:45:17. > :45:22.Hindus sometimes misunderstood, - this is a contradiction in terms,
:45:22. > :45:26.you can't have more than one ultimate. Hinduism has never never
:45:26. > :45:36.has always been a very mature, pluralistic tradition. Not many
:45:36. > :45:39.
:45:39. > :45:44.gods, but many ways to relate to the idea of spirituality, it can
:45:44. > :45:49.incorporate monothism. This is spiritual democracy and the lovely
:45:49. > :45:55.word is religious pluralism. Many parts of exploring spirituality.
:45:55. > :46:01.There is one ultimate supreme being? Not being, essentially
:46:01. > :46:05.spiritual rather than material, that manifests itself different
:46:05. > :46:10.layers. Man, God and universe is very artificial, it is time we
:46:10. > :46:15.demolished this... Is this the way out for the Church of England out
:46:15. > :46:25.of their problems? Earlier on they were talking about different gods.
:46:25. > :46:29.
:46:29. > :46:33.I was thinking gosh perhaps I am a Hindu! Intra faith dialogue. This
:46:33. > :46:37.is the way you relate to spirituality. Different ways of
:46:37. > :46:45.relating. So the supreme power and different ways of seeing that
:46:45. > :46:51.supreme power, it has many different faces. Indeed. Brahma,
:46:51. > :46:56.Vishnu. In a way this gives freedom for different people, depending on
:46:56. > :46:59.their own temperament to relate to idea of spirituality suited to
:46:59. > :47:09.their temperament. Some are goddesses too. Why should God
:47:09. > :47:13.
:47:13. > :47:17.always be father. Ashley is - you are a pagan belief and a witch as
:47:17. > :47:22.well. Yes, I am. It's not a problem. That's all right. On a Sunday
:47:22. > :47:27.morning. Lots of gods and goddesses. Can I distinguish between
:47:27. > :47:30.witchcraft and paganism, witch craft is a religion, paganism is an
:47:30. > :47:33.umbrella term for different beliefs and religion. Paganism is the
:47:33. > :47:37.belief all things are part of the natural world and aspects of that
:47:37. > :47:40.natural world have a non-physical part of their being through which
:47:40. > :47:43.they're connected. Life force is mother earth sort of thing. That's
:47:43. > :47:48.true and we are all related and connected through our non-physical
:47:48. > :47:58.being. Whereas a religion is a set of practices designed to follow a
:47:58. > :47:58.
:47:58. > :48:03.particular path. Paganism encompasses a variety. If there is
:48:03. > :48:08.a fundamental reality as Jay says, underlining reality it's possible.
:48:08. > :48:14.Because of that then possibly by approaching divinity from different
:48:14. > :48:23.angles and personifying it in different ways one is personifying
:48:23. > :48:33.the same same divinity. One of the advantages of - one of the
:48:33. > :48:38.disadvantages of pure unadulterated monotheism? It creates - you can
:48:38. > :48:47.have aLiege kwrepbs to one supreme personality. Other religion is
:48:47. > :48:50.people of no religion. It also creates intra-faith - what's
:48:50. > :48:57.written in the book is you can't integrate it then you are in
:48:57. > :49:01.trouble. I thought you two might come in here. I have the great
:49:01. > :49:05.privilege of living in India for six years and I dialogued with many
:49:05. > :49:10.Hindu leaders. The problem is this, that yes about one ultimate reality,
:49:10. > :49:12.which means this world is a total illusion T also mean that is
:49:12. > :49:16.certain people are born to a certain level of life and certain
:49:17. > :49:20.people are born to another level of life and that's justified.
:49:20. > :49:24.caste system. That means over a third of India's population of a
:49:24. > :49:29.billion are regarded as communicable social diseases such
:49:29. > :49:32.that if I was a low caste person and my shadow felt on you, you
:49:32. > :49:38.would have to go and ritually wash yourself in order to continue to
:49:38. > :49:41.take part in society. Now, unfortunately, Hinduism went
:49:41. > :49:46.through a rennaissance, as a result of its engagement with Christianity
:49:46. > :49:53.in the 19th century. One of those who was a product of that was
:49:53. > :49:58.Gandhi and Gandhi led the move for democracyisation, especially of the
:49:58. > :50:03.lower caste system. But I believe this becomes angels on the head of
:50:04. > :50:08.a pin argument when it's divorced from the reality of the experience
:50:08. > :50:16.of this system for a huge tphplt of people -- number of people. Is that
:50:16. > :50:26.because of the religion or because of cultural? This idea - hire arc
:50:26. > :50:30.alcaste system is same as saying Christianity is idea of - name of
:50:30. > :50:40.religion cannot be used in order to this marvellous broad vision of
:50:40. > :50:42.
:50:42. > :50:48.Hinduism. Vilifying Hinduism. live in a society with many gods.
:50:48. > :50:53.They're called mobile gods, iPods, flash cars, bankers' bonuses, these
:50:53. > :51:00.are the gods that prevail in our society at the moment. Some people
:51:00. > :51:03.would criticise Christianity for having three gods. The Holy Trinity.
:51:03. > :51:06.I think the real issue is actually how different faiths actually
:51:06. > :51:11.interact and work together for the common God. We heard in your
:51:11. > :51:18.discussions with our friends there with Chris and Alison, it was like
:51:18. > :51:21.hearing about different gods. is precisely the point... You were
:51:21. > :51:23.talking love and she was talking love but also judgment. There are
:51:23. > :51:27.different interpretations and we move forward in different ways and
:51:27. > :51:31.that's why I believe the Christian Church should have the profoundest
:51:31. > :51:35.of respect for other faith traditions and recognise that they
:51:35. > :51:37.experience God, ultimate reality, whatever words we use through their
:51:37. > :51:41.own particular traditions and humanism as well. And it's
:51:41. > :51:44.important that we make that recognition and not think that one
:51:44. > :51:50.particular religion trumps every other religion. Christianity sees
:51:50. > :51:53.God through the person of Jesus but we should... From a religious
:51:53. > :51:56.leader, that's the most absurd thing to hear from a religious lead
:51:56. > :52:00.they're we shouldn't think that one religion trumps the others.
:52:00. > :52:07.Obviously you have no interest in whether Christianity has a claim to
:52:07. > :52:17.truth or not. That seems ridiculous. You are Catholic, aren't you?
:52:17. > :52:19.
:52:19. > :52:29.Catholicism think the Virgin Mary is a quasi-Goddess in one way.
:52:29. > :52:29.
:52:29. > :52:34.like the idea of boy of -- polytheish. When you can structure
:52:34. > :52:37.your belief systems as you go through life according to your
:52:37. > :52:40.preferences, my worry with is there is you are selecting your gods and
:52:41. > :52:46.you are choosing your religion rather than the other way around
:52:46. > :52:49.and I am really horrified by statements like this, that religion
:52:49. > :52:53.- religion should not aspire to talk about the truth t should
:52:53. > :53:01.simply try to do good with everybody it can. It seems...
:53:01. > :53:04.are We are scratching the surface of the truth. I want to challenge
:53:04. > :53:09.on the idea of that f you believe in one God somehow it's going to
:53:09. > :53:19.make you a horrible intolerant fanatical person I don't agree with
:53:19. > :53:19.
:53:19. > :53:25.that, you have made an example of intra faith, imagine an intra God.
:53:25. > :53:33.Chaos all over the world. All the gods and goddesses. I am suggesting,
:53:33. > :53:43.most thinkers of recent times pointed the finger at monotheism.
:53:43. > :53:48.Always pointed finger at monotheism for producing fan fan -- fanatic
:53:48. > :53:54.behaviour. I don't think that any of us can say we are not, but what
:53:54. > :53:58.excites me is to hear what you say is there has to be one ultimate
:53:58. > :54:02.reality, and that you say that we are connected in a non-physical way,
:54:02. > :54:07.all of life, because that's what Christians believe. I believe we
:54:07. > :54:11.are connected but I all our connection the holy spirit and I
:54:11. > :54:15.think everything that exists, everything that exists animals
:54:15. > :54:22.people, everything is enlivened and here because of the Holy Spirit.
:54:22. > :54:31.you pray to God or Jesus? I pray to - I have one God and it's like a
:54:31. > :54:40.finely cut crystal, will never exhaust the infinitude of the
:54:40. > :54:45.divine and I come through Jesus. Peter. Can we talk about the
:54:45. > :54:49.greatest monotheist existed if you like, Jesus, and what kind of
:54:49. > :54:53.behaviour did that produce? Did he kill people? No, he laid down his
:54:53. > :54:58.own life for his people. There's no other God that's laid down his life
:54:58. > :55:03.for his people. That's the behaviour, service and sself-
:55:03. > :55:07.sacrifice. Any spiritual - idea of spirituality geared for society it
:55:07. > :55:10.was living in, the Met afor, language used was suited to that
:55:10. > :55:14.time to those people, not necessarily for the modern secular
:55:14. > :55:17.society and this ability to move forward and evolve with the times
:55:17. > :55:22.and recognise the deeper idea of religion which is at the spiritual
:55:22. > :55:27.level is the way forward. I am promoting spiritual humanism in
:55:27. > :55:31.contrast to any religion. Peter wants to come in. Far from taking
:55:31. > :55:38.the view that many gods are better than one, I would say that no God
:55:38. > :55:42.is better than any God. I absolutely respect and defend
:55:42. > :55:48.people of faith who are being persecuted, I work to help support
:55:48. > :55:53.Christians in Pakistan being persecuted, Sunni Musliming in Iran
:55:53. > :55:56.-- Muslims in Iran. But I think that reason, rationale argument,
:55:56. > :56:01.scientific knowledge is a better way to understand the world than
:56:01. > :56:05.the superstition of religion. Ashley. I don't believe in
:56:05. > :56:08.superstition, we are all part of a natural world, therefore there's no
:56:08. > :56:11.supernatural. What I have noticed here is that we are dealing with
:56:11. > :56:14.the difference between spirituality and religion and Jay is talking
:56:14. > :56:20.about spirituality even from the perspective of a religion and
:56:20. > :56:25.myself in the same way. Let me also say what we have been talking about
:56:25. > :56:28.earlier is moral and ethical issues and whether the state gets involved
:56:28. > :56:31.in what people do as well as what they believe and maybe religions
:56:31. > :56:34.and spiritual people might think about stepping back and dealing
:56:34. > :56:37.with what people believe, rather than the way they act upon those
:56:37. > :56:42.beliefs and we can all have a discussion about the whole thing.
:56:42. > :56:47.Determined behaviour, beliefs should determine behaviour.
:56:47. > :56:50.believe the only way to eternal life is through Jesus Christ,
:56:50. > :56:55.millions of people are condemned to what if they don't believe in
:56:55. > :57:02.Jesus? They're condemned to eternal death, punishment from God, that's
:57:02. > :57:04.what the Bible teaches. That is the love of God. That ultimate reality
:57:04. > :57:14.is somehow responsible for everything that is, it's pretty
:57:14. > :57:17.
:57:17. > :57:21.mean thing to actually do that, I think. That's why, I think - it's a
:57:21. > :57:28.both, not either or. I lived in India for a year, it was
:57:28. > :57:34.fascinating to see the various gods and when you came to the
:57:34. > :57:37.celebrations the goddesses for example, the goddesses of death,
:57:37. > :57:40.you see people take down tree, make a God and have loads of smoke, you
:57:40. > :57:45.almost see because of all the people and the working up the
:57:45. > :57:48.people that the thing can move, after that what do they do with the
:57:48. > :57:55.God, it's chucked in the river. What's the difference between body
:57:55. > :58:00.and blood of Christ? I believe that's done in remembrance of the
:58:01. > :58:04.death and passion. Another religion in order to score points for own
:58:04. > :58:07.religion is not going to work in modern day and times, it's
:58:07. > :58:11.necessary to look at the deep are ideas of religion and not threw out
:58:11. > :58:14.the baby with the bath water and hanging on to idea of spirituality
:58:14. > :58:18.and I am promoting spiritual humanism is the way forward. Thank