:00:25. > :00:29.Good morning. Thank you. Welcome to The Big Questions, live from King
:00:29. > :00:32.Edward VI Handsworth School in Birmingham. I'm Nicky Campbell.
:00:32. > :00:37.This week a Crown Court judge dismissed a woman from a jury
:00:37. > :00:41.because she refused to remove her face veil, or niqab. Our first big
:00:41. > :00:44.question, is a niqab a barrier to justice? This woman says wearing
:00:44. > :00:48.the niqab has never interfered with her ability to communicate at work,
:00:48. > :00:50.in public places or in social surroundings.
:00:50. > :00:53.This week a Swansea University student pleaded guilty to posting
:00:53. > :01:03.racist remarks on Twitter about Bolton midfielder Fabrice Muamba as
:01:03. > :01:03.
:01:03. > :01:06.he lay fighting for his life in hospital. And on Wednesday, a
:01:06. > :01:09.Newcastle University student was fined and sentenced to 240 hours of
:01:09. > :01:11.community service after he pleaded guilty to tweeting racist remarks
:01:11. > :01:14.about the football pundit Stan Collymore. Our next big question,
:01:14. > :01:17.is the beautiful game bigoted? John Amaechi, the former basketball
:01:17. > :01:22.player turned motivator, says the FA's Kick It Out campaign has done
:01:22. > :01:25.nothing to stamp out racism in professional football.
:01:25. > :01:33.And last, one of those age-old big questions, do we need religion to
:01:33. > :01:37.create a moral society? The Bishop of Birmingham says he's not a
:01:37. > :01:42.Christian because he's naturally a good person. We all need religion
:01:42. > :01:48.to help us lead a moral life. Welcome, everybody, to The Big
:01:48. > :01:51.Questions. APPLAUSE. On Monday, a judge at Blackfriars Crown Court
:01:51. > :01:54.asked a woman to stand down from the jury because she was not
:01:54. > :02:00.prepared to remove the veil, or niqab, covering all her head except
:02:00. > :02:03.her eyes. The trial was for an attempted murder and the judge said
:02:03. > :02:12.it was desirable that the court could see her facial expressions.
:02:12. > :02:15.Is a niqab a barrier to justice? Three wadi you think it is?
:02:15. > :02:20.judge was applying judicial guidelines given by the judicial
:02:20. > :02:26.Studies Board for this situation. The judge was having to think about
:02:26. > :02:30.the right of the defendant to a fair trial. The court process in
:02:30. > :02:34.the UK space to face-to-face encounters. People call evidence in
:02:34. > :02:40.front of a libel jury and judge and the jury have to assess that
:02:40. > :02:44.evidence. I think the judge was thinking about, putting myself in
:02:44. > :02:48.the position of the defendant, how comfortable would I feel giving my
:02:48. > :02:55.side of the story in front of an audience, some of whose faces I
:02:55. > :03:02.could not see. Do you have to see all of them? Perhaps people could
:03:02. > :03:08.understand if the entire jury had their faces covered? That person's
:03:08. > :03:12.these might be decisive in the jury room afterwards. The judge was
:03:12. > :03:16.trying to ensure a fair trial. It may be that when that particular
:03:16. > :03:20.lady was called to jury service, it may not have been explained to her
:03:21. > :03:25.that the judge reserved the right to consider these issues. People
:03:25. > :03:32.may not be happy with his decision, but it is his duty to make that
:03:33. > :03:37.decision. Myriam Francois Cerrah, if it is a point of principle, do
:03:37. > :03:42.you think that anybody should be allowed to cover their faces in a
:03:42. > :03:46.court room and for whatever reason? I think there are very good reasons
:03:46. > :03:52.that might be applicable for asking women to remove their face fell in
:03:52. > :03:57.a quarter of loss. It is testimony to our judicial Service that there
:03:57. > :04:02.are very fair guidelines in that regard. The only thing with regard
:04:02. > :04:08.to this case is that I am not sure that the argument that he was not
:04:08. > :04:12.able to read her facial expressions was a legitimate one. What about my
:04:12. > :04:22.friend to is a fantastic poker player and has a fantastic Poker
:04:22. > :04:27.Face. You would not be able to read his expressions. The this was not a
:04:27. > :04:33.poker game. This was a trier for murder. We are talking about facial
:04:33. > :04:42.expressions. What if you are misreading people's facial
:04:42. > :04:47.expressions? You said this is not a poker game. It is a court of law
:04:47. > :04:51.and are really formal process. It is a really important oral
:04:51. > :04:57.tradition which needs respect. this country we have a fair system
:04:57. > :05:03.which is based on a avoiding the tyranny of the majority. We do that
:05:03. > :05:09.by protecting the rights of the minorities. That allows people to
:05:09. > :05:18.live out their religious identity. I am not sure this particular case
:05:18. > :05:24.convince me. It would not matter what her reasons were for wearing
:05:24. > :05:28.the veil, whether it was for religious or some other reason, she
:05:28. > :05:31.might have a facial disfigurement. In which case you may not be able
:05:31. > :05:38.to read her facial expressions either. Should she be dismissed on
:05:38. > :05:44.those grounds? The judge said that it was a jury of the courtiers.
:05:44. > :05:48.She's been denied her rights. explore that. The there are certain
:05:48. > :05:54.rules in the system in which she wants to engage. If she wants to
:05:55. > :06:01.sit in judgment... The judge can also take other steps, rather than
:06:01. > :06:07.just asking that the juror to stand down. He can ask for any adaptation
:06:07. > :06:14.that the court can apply, for example, may be talking behind a
:06:14. > :06:19.curtain. In if you are giving evidence, that is different. This
:06:19. > :06:27.is crucial for the evidence or the victim. There are other ways, video
:06:27. > :06:32.links, that they can use in court. Yes, special measures. Only been
:06:32. > :06:39.shown to the judge. If you were serving on a jury, if I judge asked
:06:39. > :06:44.you to remove your veil, would you remove it? It depends on the
:06:44. > :06:50.situation. Each situation has to be considered individually. Sometimes
:06:50. > :06:54.if it is crucial, for the interests of the victim. She sued the other
:06:54. > :07:02.jurors be allowed to see your face if you are deliberating in the jury
:07:02. > :07:09.room? Yes, if it is crucial, yes. If it is crucial for the victim's
:07:09. > :07:12.interests. THEY ALL TALK AT ONCE I think the problem here is that you
:07:12. > :07:19.are making a preference for a minority.
:07:19. > :07:25.The system has to be equal and formal. She we not have summer
:07:25. > :07:30.cultural alliances in society? I think the niqab is about female
:07:30. > :07:35.subjugation. This country has a long tradition of female rights.
:07:35. > :07:40.What does it say that someone walks down the streets of Britain today
:07:40. > :07:50.with equality of gender is almost a settled issue? I feel that this is
:07:50. > :07:54.
:07:54. > :08:02.wrong today. He has broadened the issue. Myriam is not happy. I do
:08:02. > :08:09.not think you are either. THEY ALL TALK AT ONCE Are you are pressed?
:08:09. > :08:19.Not at all. I should be given the option or the choice whether to
:08:19. > :08:26.take it off, even in the court. THEY ALL TALK AT ONCE Were it a
:08:26. > :08:31.minute, we are all speaking at once. You used to wear it, didn't you,
:08:31. > :08:37.and you said that you felt incredibly protected? Yes.
:08:37. > :08:44.explain that. I wore the niqab for a personal, spiritual reasons. It
:08:44. > :08:50.has nothing to do with anyone else. I put it on and I felt special,
:08:50. > :08:55.closer to God, I felt that this was the way I wanted to express my
:08:55. > :09:01.religious beliefs. I took it off because I began to suffer from
:09:01. > :09:06.abuse from people, spitting at me in the street. I have had stones
:09:06. > :09:12.thrown at me. I am quite used to being called names, I do not care
:09:12. > :09:18.about names. We should all care about that. If it can I ask you
:09:19. > :09:24.about the modesty aspect of it? We had a conversation over a very
:09:24. > :09:31.pleasant couple coffee earlier on, and it also takes a certain thing
:09:31. > :09:37.out of the conversation with a man. You call did the, I would do ha,
:09:37. > :09:43.factor. What do you mean? It is not just men, you are taking away that
:09:43. > :09:50.judgment. I do not want to have a stranger say to me at Worthing, I
:09:50. > :09:55.would kick that out of bed, I will tell you that. I do not think she
:09:55. > :10:03.put her make-up on well today. it not insulting of men take say
:10:03. > :10:13.that. I did not say men, I said women as well. It mentally, we all
:10:13. > :10:13.
:10:13. > :10:19.judge. I do not want to be judged on my appearance. It is all about
:10:19. > :10:24.choice and a woman's right to choose. Women have a right to
:10:24. > :10:28.choose. The tradition that my friend has been talking about, this
:10:28. > :10:33.great tradition of feminism, is actually about women having the
:10:33. > :10:38.right to choose. If women are saying that they want to weigh it,
:10:38. > :10:44.we are proud of our democratic tradition that says, yes, you can
:10:44. > :10:49.wear it. We should be tolerant. APPLAUSE The what would you like to
:10:49. > :10:53.say? I am a Muslim. I agree with the
:10:53. > :10:59.fact the reason why they are wearing the niqab. It is their
:10:59. > :11:02.choice. They have the courage to make the choice. In which policy
:11:02. > :11:09.does it stayed that you are entitled not to wear a certain item
:11:09. > :11:14.are you have to remove a certain item? Where does it stayed at?
:11:14. > :11:19.are not likely to wear a crash helmet or balaclava in court.
:11:19. > :11:26.can coming to court and remove a turbine, you could remove a Jew's
:11:26. > :11:33.cat. This is a barrier to Islam. speak as a magistrate. We deal with
:11:33. > :11:38.these issues daily. I believe in the rights of women. I am a woman
:11:39. > :11:42.myself. I have come from the Commission for the Status of Women
:11:42. > :11:46.where we are working for women's rights and the right to choose, but
:11:46. > :11:54.in a court situation, one of the problems we have is that people
:11:54. > :11:58.cannot be identified. This is an issue for us as magistrates. People
:11:58. > :12:03.who are accused, we do not work with the jury in a magistrates'
:12:03. > :12:07.court, but certainly witnesses, if a person is making an accusation
:12:07. > :12:13.against someone, the person who is the defendant has a right to know
:12:14. > :12:18.who that is. APPLAUSE I totally agree with that.
:12:18. > :12:24.If you are going into a court of law and the judge asks you to
:12:24. > :12:29.remove your niqab, I do not see a problem with that. We are living in
:12:29. > :12:33.the United Kingdom and he is part of our judge and jury. I cannot go
:12:33. > :12:40.over to Dubai and do what I would like to do. These are English
:12:40. > :12:47.citizens. The what would you like to do? Obviously I have to abide by
:12:47. > :12:52.that. They are not foreign, they are you a fellow British citizens.
:12:52. > :13:00.They are entitled to have an opinion on how their judicial
:13:00. > :13:09.services run. There is a unanimity here in fact, if I judge asks for
:13:09. > :13:18.it a niqab to be lifted, it should be. The problem is us as us aside -
:13:19. > :13:28.- we are the problem as a society. Death there are 0.083 % of women
:13:29. > :13:33.
:13:33. > :13:38.This is about what the traditional values of openness and transparency
:13:38. > :13:42.are in British culture. You have other cultures coming in and it is
:13:42. > :13:50.up to them to change the standards of this country, it isn't about
:13:50. > :13:56.everybody changing. Do we cherished traditions in this country as well?
:13:56. > :14:06.Do we cherish freedom of expression? Is this not a
:14:06. > :14:06.
:14:06. > :14:13.manifestation of that? The best is a specific gender stigmatisation.
:14:13. > :14:20.First of all, we have to know and that wearing the niqab is an act of
:14:20. > :14:23.worship before modesty. I am wearing it to freely practised what
:14:23. > :14:29.something is that I deeply believe in and I think I should have the
:14:30. > :14:33.right to practise it. Then, modesty comes as a second reason so that is
:14:33. > :14:40.different between men and women and for me, it is just an act of
:14:40. > :14:48.worship. It is good to contrast the enlightenment through discourse and
:14:48. > :14:54.to remove the problem a Test nation, which is a word to use. When we see
:14:54. > :15:00.somebody completely covered up with her husband and he is wearing a
:15:00. > :15:05.designer jeans and the open-necked short-sleeved shirt, why is he not
:15:05. > :15:10.being modest? That is his choice. There is an inconsistency in
:15:10. > :15:14.modesty? They are two different people with a totally different
:15:14. > :15:23.relationship with God and they have chosen a different way. Because my
:15:23. > :15:27.sister is wearing the niqab, do not think she is any better a Muslim.
:15:27. > :15:36.It is a cultural practice which treats women differently. Even if
:15:36. > :15:40.it is religious, we should not treat women differently to men.
:15:40. > :15:45.What are you saying? We have to open up the traditions of this
:15:45. > :15:49.country, that women do not cover themselves. Freedom of expression?
:15:49. > :15:55.This is about saying that women are different to men and that is
:15:55. > :16:01.fundamentally wrong. You have to be really careful. As an atheist I
:16:01. > :16:04.perhaps don't have a place to talk on this but I will say this... We
:16:04. > :16:07.have to be careful when the Pontificate about the traditions of
:16:07. > :16:13.any country because if you look like in our history and you don't
:16:13. > :16:17.have to go far in Britain, all of a sudden, some ugly things, buy-out
:16:17. > :16:21.and the idea that some cultures subjugate women becomes absurd
:16:21. > :16:27.because you don't have to look far back on our own history to realise
:16:27. > :16:32.we did the same things. We don't do that anymore because we had the
:16:32. > :16:37.Enlightenment. We put religion on the spot and decided that it should
:16:37. > :16:42.not affect aspects of our society and this is a minority that has not
:16:42. > :16:52.gone through the process and then add the mint, of David Hume, the
:16:52. > :16:54.
:16:54. > :17:00.whole idea of Westernisation. was the Muslim community in Spain
:17:00. > :17:10.that introduced this to Western Europe. Also, if you just want to...
:17:10. > :17:19.There is a cleric and Saudi Arabia that says the niqab does not go far
:17:19. > :17:28.enough. He said that women should only show one alive. -- eye. How
:17:28. > :17:34.enlightened is that? You have got British women, girls, wearing not
:17:34. > :17:40.even Shorts. Their underwear is in public. And the boys walking around,
:17:40. > :17:45.they have got proper trousers on and girls are being sexualised and
:17:45. > :17:51.we are in an insane position at the highest rates of teenage pregnancy.
:17:51. > :18:01.That is also freedom of choice. are not complaining about that, if
:18:01. > :18:04.
:18:04. > :18:09.a girl sits there, as a juror, on their sexualised in the jury? A Yes,
:18:09. > :18:12.it makes sense that we need to be able to see their face, but the
:18:12. > :18:18.juror was making a decision and does not be to make any sort of
:18:18. > :18:23.facial... If you have ever been in front of an audience, you need to
:18:23. > :18:27.see how they react to what to say and if one person's face is covered,
:18:27. > :18:31.then they have an unfair relationship with the person who is
:18:31. > :18:34.being tried and the person who is being tried, their rights are
:18:35. > :18:43.paramount because they could go to jail and their lives can be
:18:43. > :18:52.destroyed. That is why it is important in court. This is
:18:53. > :19:00.pregnant... Whoever wants to address this, there is a case a few
:19:00. > :19:03.years back, 2010, wear a woman had been abused by her partner and she
:19:03. > :19:09.wore the niqab and that was required that she take it off in
:19:09. > :19:16.court and she did not want to to testify and by keeping that on,
:19:16. > :19:22.that was an impediment to justice? Washy giving evidence? Against her
:19:23. > :19:28.husband? She was. That makes sense because if they do not want to show
:19:28. > :19:35.any signs of emotion, if anybody is giving evidence, it makes sense, it
:19:35. > :19:39.is a juror that does not make sense to me. The juror is deciding and
:19:39. > :19:44.the jury plays a public function so it isn't like going along to meet
:19:44. > :19:52.your friends in the pub. You are performing a public function and if
:19:52. > :19:56.the rule in his... I am sorry, what did Gerard does is very important.
:19:56. > :20:04.I do not recall ever having eye- contact with the judge, we went
:20:05. > :20:11.into a separate room. The jury is supposed to be impartial and the
:20:11. > :20:15.idea that you could be a defendant who is being looked at by someone
:20:15. > :20:23.who says, I don't like the look of that, and it isn't the road of the
:20:24. > :20:31.judge to think, she looks like... They judicial guidelines say that
:20:31. > :20:35.only if the defendant has a problem... By Barbara? Or the
:20:35. > :20:39.prosecution because it depends what the case is about and both sides in
:20:39. > :20:42.the process are entitled to know how the people they are trying to
:20:42. > :20:50.persuade are reacting and covering the face isn't acceptable, I am
:20:50. > :20:53.afraid. I promised to come to this lady. We seem to be conflating two
:20:53. > :20:59.different arguments and one is the argument of the freedom of women to
:20:59. > :21:04.wear what they want when walking down the street and the other is a
:21:04. > :21:08.freedom in court. Court has conventions, we spoke earlier about
:21:09. > :21:13.girls walking down the street in next to nothing. We would not
:21:13. > :21:19.expect adjudged to except somebody walking into the court in a bikini
:21:19. > :21:25.and thinking that was OK. There are conventions in court. One of those
:21:25. > :21:30.is that justice is meant to be transparent in all but cases where
:21:30. > :21:35.somebody's physical well-being is at issue. People can testify from
:21:35. > :21:45.behind a screen but that is usually people who are testifying and are
:21:45. > :21:46.
:21:46. > :21:53.threatened. It is all about choice. Although we are arguing, we do
:21:53. > :21:57.agree on a lot, which is what is about the guidelines, they are no
:21:57. > :22:00.one-star and allow for many scenarios and in certain situations,
:22:00. > :22:05.apart from the jury, were there might be different views, and that
:22:05. > :22:10.is for the discussion of the judge and other members, broadly speaking,
:22:10. > :22:15.yes, women should have their faces visible in court. There is a small
:22:15. > :22:19.amount of cases that we're talking about. A jury is supposed to be
:22:19. > :22:24.from your peers and if you are going to say you are not allowed on
:22:24. > :22:32.the jury because of their They'll, you're taking away a section of
:22:32. > :22:36.society that has appeared to someone in court. Last word?
:22:36. > :22:40.women serving on a jury in a public function make that choice that they
:22:40. > :22:43.would prefer to pursue their personal wish to cover the face,
:22:43. > :22:49.that is their choice but they cannot perform a public function,
:22:49. > :22:52.then. Thank you all very much indeed. If you'd like to have your
:22:52. > :22:56.say about that debate, log on to: bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions. You'll
:22:56. > :22:59.find links to places to continue the discussion online. We're
:22:59. > :23:03.debating live this morning from the King Edward VI Handsworth School in
:23:03. > :23:07.Birmingham. Is the beautiful game bigoted? And do we need religion to
:23:07. > :23:10.create a moral society? Tell us what you think about those topics
:23:10. > :23:18.or send us your ideas for future debates or any general comments
:23:18. > :23:22.you'd like to make about the 2012 has not been a season of
:23:22. > :23:26.goodwill in football. Luis Suarez refused to shake the hand of
:23:26. > :23:29.Patrice Evra after an eight-game suspension for racially abusing him.
:23:29. > :23:33.Oldham's Tom Adeyemi was reduced to tears at Anfield because of a fan's
:23:33. > :23:38.racist remarks. And Evra was subjected to boos and monkey
:23:38. > :23:41.gestures from the crowd on the same pitch. And on Monday, Newcastle
:23:41. > :23:50.United's Cheick Tiote says he was abused by an Arsenal fan. Is the
:23:50. > :23:54.beautiful game bigoted? John Amaechi, it is better than it was
:23:54. > :24:00.in the 1970s but you say there are still some way to go. What are the
:24:00. > :24:05.authorities doing wrong? Campion after campaign. They are like
:24:05. > :24:09.Saatchi and Saatchi with anti- bigotry initiative has. They can
:24:09. > :24:16.come up with the best posters and platitudes. When it comes to
:24:16. > :24:19.reducing bigotry. Unfortunately, they have managed very basic
:24:19. > :24:24.qualification. We have stopped people throwing bananas onto the
:24:24. > :24:32.field, I don't know how many millions it took for that.
:24:32. > :24:36.Fundamentally, most things have not changed, how can you call a sport
:24:37. > :24:45.progressive when they hire their first female board member in 2012?
:24:45. > :24:53.There are no qualified women for that job?! The reality is that they
:24:53. > :24:56.undertake an unbelievably poor approach. They had a set of issues
:24:56. > :25:01.what racism are important and other things come underneath that in
:25:01. > :25:04.descending order. Homophobia, they still have people who openly giggle
:25:04. > :25:11.when you talk about gay people as if they were still eight years old.
:25:11. > :25:15.More progress needs to be made and leadership is entirely absent.
:25:15. > :25:21.it the case that incidents like those in the 1970s, if they
:25:21. > :25:27.happened now, there is at the rich. Is that progress? Yes, it is. I
:25:27. > :25:31.want to agree and disagree with John. That is fine! I agree that we
:25:31. > :25:37.have not gone far enough, there is a long way to go but we have come a
:25:37. > :25:42.very long way. Whiteley, it is now socially unacceptable to be racist
:25:42. > :25:49.in a football ground. What does it happen so much? Not as much as it
:25:49. > :25:52.used to it and that is clear. In my own case, Leeds United, they had a
:25:52. > :25:58.reputation that was very racist in the 1970s and 1980s and a small
:25:58. > :26:05.group of people campaigned, these are the unsung heroes, they stopped
:26:05. > :26:07.the National Front from giving out their magazine outside the national
:26:07. > :26:12.ground under stop the mindset of Leeds fans which was to insult
:26:12. > :26:18.black players. They actually won a victory. It was not in knowledge,
:26:18. > :26:22.but when I go to the ground, I do not see or hear any racist comments.
:26:22. > :26:30.The they was an incident a few years back when they were hissing
:26:30. > :26:36.at the Tottenham Hotspur match because of their Jewish player and
:26:36. > :26:40.the gas chambers. As a Jewish Leeds United fan, I was absolutely
:26:40. > :26:44.disgusted by that. I stopped going to see Leeds for quite a while
:26:44. > :26:49.because of things like that. It does not happen any more and partly
:26:49. > :26:55.this is what you were talking about earlier. The campaign, which is
:26:55. > :27:01.kick racism Out Of Football, has got many of the people in society
:27:01. > :27:07.actually saying that using that word is wrong, like using the P
:27:07. > :27:13.word. The use of those words does not necessarily denote someone as a
:27:13. > :27:19.racist. We are getting very close... That people said those words, why
:27:19. > :27:22.are they not resist? If you carry on down this route, what you get is
:27:22. > :27:32.what has happened, S Dyche and warranties tend to be more
:27:32. > :27:33.
:27:33. > :27:41.sensitive to words and others. That is a worrying state of affairs.
:27:41. > :27:45.They are only words. Grow up! of the issue of is that there has
:27:45. > :27:55.been researched as far as the 1950s telling us that words are not just
:27:55. > :27:56.
:27:56. > :27:59.words. Words escalate. A APPLAUSE. We know that words can escalate
:27:59. > :28:03.quickly and can informal opinion, they make it clear that certain
:28:03. > :28:06.types of people are less and the moment they are less than human,
:28:06. > :28:13.you can start doing things to them that you would never decide to do
:28:13. > :28:19.to a person you decide is human. Why can you not be happy... What
:28:19. > :28:25.does it matter what people think? Why nothing, I don't give a damn?
:28:25. > :28:30.Be strong. John? Tell that to the young people in Britain who enjoy
:28:30. > :28:40.endemic bullying in schools because of being gay or lesbian and are
:28:40. > :28:41.
:28:41. > :28:49.Can I say that racism does exist in football? Eight may not be seen but
:28:49. > :28:56.it is festering underneath the skin. We have four managers of colour, of
:28:56. > :28:59.any race, at football league level out of 92 clubs. I do not see any
:28:59. > :29:04.ethnicity at boardroom level. I have a seven-year-old son who
:29:04. > :29:09.recently came home from school after being racially abused, after
:29:09. > :29:16.being called names, and I have to explain to him why he has to put up
:29:16. > :29:25.with that. Would you like your son, your child, to come home crying
:29:25. > :29:33.their eyes out, saying, dad, why are they picking on me? APPLAUSE
:29:33. > :29:38.The simple explanation... Simple. People who do that are
:29:38. > :29:42.radiates. If you are going to be so abject as to insult people on the
:29:42. > :29:46.basis of their race, you should just dismiss those people and not
:29:46. > :29:50.care about it. You have got to be very self-
:29:50. > :29:55.confident to do that? Yes, but that is what we should
:29:55. > :30:02.encourage people to do. We should try to get people to be impervious
:30:02. > :30:09.and stronger. You are a nation football
:30:09. > :30:14.representative. On the General point made by Michael Johnson,
:30:14. > :30:20.access to the top jobs, is that the problem? That is one of the key
:30:20. > :30:27.problems. Racism is not over any longer, but it is covert, it is
:30:27. > :30:31.there. There is institutionalised racism throughout the game. Looking
:30:31. > :30:37.at the South Asian experience, parents who have come from Pakistan,
:30:37. > :30:43.Bangladesh and India, there is not even one Asian player playing at
:30:43. > :30:48.the top level. Why not? Of their playing everywhere else. It's
:30:48. > :30:55.surely if someone is good enough, they would be playing? If that was
:30:55. > :31:00.the case, it has been 16 years since the report on the under-
:31:00. > :31:05.representation of stations in football was put together. Still to
:31:05. > :31:14.this day we are continually arguing the same point. A five players, it
:31:14. > :31:20.is absurd. What we're looking at is a waste of talent. We have so much
:31:20. > :31:25.talent in this country that is not being used. Whether you're getting
:31:25. > :31:31.hung up about whether we use these words, the important thing is how
:31:31. > :31:36.as in English football team have we improved over the years? One of the
:31:36. > :31:40.ways is when we draw on the talent of all communities. To exclude any
:31:40. > :31:47.community, whether it is through prejudice or self exclusion, it is
:31:47. > :31:50.wrong. I want to move on to the other thing. You mentioned
:31:50. > :31:55.homophobe be out in football. What did you think of the interview with
:31:55. > :32:01.John Fashanu for he said, I do not think my brother was gay, I think
:32:01. > :32:07.he was an attention seeker. In years in the game, I never
:32:08. > :32:17.encountered a gay footballer, it is a macho sport. What did you make of
:32:18. > :32:20.
:32:20. > :32:26.that? He is symptomatic of the problem. Of course, if you are that
:32:26. > :32:31.openly hostile, says the hostility towards gay people radiates of you
:32:31. > :32:37.in the way that it radiates of John Fashanu, it is unlikely that people
:32:37. > :32:43.will come to you and self disclose. It is a very stereotypical view of
:32:43. > :32:49.what a gay person is as well? if he thinks that you can tell by
:32:49. > :32:53.looking, you're wrong. It is a massive mistake. Because of your
:32:53. > :33:00.religious beliefs, you have a problem with the anti- homophobe be
:33:00. > :33:06.a agenda? Yes, as a born-again Christian, it does say in the Book
:33:07. > :33:11.of Leviticus in the Bible that it is detestable to the Lords. It is
:33:11. > :33:19.not that I do not dislike anyone who is homosexual, I just do not
:33:19. > :33:23.agree with the ways of being homosexual. When people say I am
:33:23. > :33:29.devout, I read the Bible and the Book of Leviticus says such-and-
:33:29. > :33:35.such, if you still eat shellfish, is being gay is as bad as eating
:33:35. > :33:41.shellfish... Aid is not that bad. There are so many prohibitions in
:33:41. > :33:45.the Bible that you cannot possibly rationalise. It's unless you are
:33:45. > :33:49.treating it like some kind of do favour you can pick and choose the
:33:49. > :33:55.bits you want. He you want to be a manager? What would you do if you
:33:55. > :33:59.had a gay player in your team? was to be a manager, I would not
:33:59. > :34:06.say to a player, you cannot be in your team because you are
:34:06. > :34:12.homosexuals. What if he said, boss, I am gay, I want to come out and be
:34:12. > :34:16.a trailblazer. I want to be the first player in the Premiership.
:34:16. > :34:22.That is fine, a few at are strong enough and want to do that, I will
:34:22. > :34:27.not say, you cannot do that. But because of my religious beliefs, I
:34:27. > :34:31.myself do not agree with homosexuality. Would you not give
:34:31. > :34:37.that player the support that he would need in that situation.
:34:38. > :34:44.course. I have an assistant manager, first-team coach... So you would
:34:44. > :34:50.put the responsibility for that on to them? No, I would sit down with
:34:50. > :34:56.my staff and discuss the situation. Says someone were to be brave
:34:56. > :34:59.enough. Obviously no one has in the last how many years thanks to the
:34:59. > :35:04.Justin Fashanu situation but if someone was to come to you and say,
:35:04. > :35:09.I am gay, I'm going to come out, there is speaking to people under
:35:09. > :35:16.you, but you as the manager, you have to take a lead and make sure
:35:16. > :35:20.they are OK. It's your personal believes should be put to one side.
:35:20. > :35:25.You are spot-on. I would say to them that if this is something they
:35:25. > :35:31.were comfortable with, that is entirely up to you. I would speak
:35:31. > :35:38.to them and let them know how I feel about the subject. Do you
:35:38. > :35:46.support the FA's campaign against homophobia? Listen, would I support
:35:46. > :35:51.the FA's campaign? Again, because of my beliefs, because of the Bible
:35:51. > :36:00.that and read, in that chapter, it does state that homosexuality is
:36:00. > :36:06.detestable. It does not say that homosexuality is allowed to be
:36:07. > :36:13.beaten on. What you just said, you have a little bit... To let's get
:36:13. > :36:17.back to Barbara. Football clubs are employers, and their subject to the
:36:17. > :36:25.same laws of the land as any other employer. So whatever their
:36:25. > :36:29.personal view, they have to respect the law. APPLAUSE They all have
:36:29. > :36:34.equal opportunities policies, but how do they implemented?
:36:34. > :36:39.When we're speaking about homophobic or racism Reporting, the
:36:39. > :36:42.levels are lower. The levels are low because people do not report it
:36:42. > :36:47.because they have no confidence in the system.
:36:47. > :36:52.The main point with perversity, whether it be in what we would
:36:53. > :36:58.consider to be regular business or sport, is that it is a performance
:36:58. > :37:02.prerogative. I am not interested in poster's that put a black person
:37:02. > :37:09.next to a white person and somehow that is supposed to inform us that
:37:09. > :37:15.racism has gone. It is absurd. We want an environment where people
:37:15. > :37:19.are attracted to the organisation and can survive that within it.
:37:19. > :37:28.Maybe this would make us perform better in the World Cup. That is
:37:28. > :37:34.why diversity is important. If you as a manager cannot create an
:37:34. > :37:38.environment where every player can thrive, that is a problem. Go if
:37:38. > :37:44.you are a manager and you say, by the way, I think you are going to
:37:44. > :37:48.burn in hell, I think that is a problem. But diversity also
:37:48. > :37:53.encompasses his right to have religious beliefs? I absolutely.
:37:53. > :37:59.are speaking about one of the most wonderful games in the world. It is
:37:59. > :38:04.such a strong part of British identity. We want the very best of
:38:04. > :38:08.our society to be revealed in 21st century football. Where we let
:38:08. > :38:14.ourselves down is not connecting our personal beliefs and attitudes,
:38:14. > :38:19.which we are hearing today, hearing what we think personally, with our
:38:19. > :38:25.public behaviour. When we get into the crowd and go along with the
:38:25. > :38:28.crowd, we let ourselves down. I like the campaigns in favour of
:38:28. > :38:34.anti homophobe beer. It is important that we deal with the
:38:34. > :38:44.dignity of each person. -- homophobe dear. The game is letting
:38:44. > :38:44.
:38:44. > :38:54.itself down. The gamers a reflection of what society is like.
:38:54. > :38:59.In the 2000-2012 statistics, 80 % of crimes were racist. That is a
:38:59. > :39:06.reflection of society. How Kenfig poll lead the way and be a
:39:06. > :39:11.pioneering enclave in our society. Earth football is a microcosm of
:39:11. > :39:16.society, but it is also a powerful agent of society. When it sends out
:39:16. > :39:21.these terrible messages, that informs society rather than the
:39:21. > :39:25.reverse. Campaigns are great if you're trying to sell beans, but
:39:25. > :39:35.when you're trying to change actual behaviour, you need more than a
:39:35. > :39:38.
:39:38. > :39:44.campaign. You need to educate people. Most people would suggest
:39:44. > :39:50.that there are lots of good reasons not to go to Kuwait. For me, going
:39:51. > :39:55.to a country where being gay, and that is not behaving in end of --
:39:55. > :40:02.in any particular way, your life can be compromised, that is not a
:40:02. > :40:08.good idea. I support any anti- discriminated able legislation. The
:40:08. > :40:16.loss should be blind on these issues. Equality legislation is a
:40:16. > :40:18.great move forward. APPLAUSE I do not agree with racism or homophobe
:40:18. > :40:24.beer. I think it is terrible and most of
:40:24. > :40:27.us would agree with that. But the way to change that is not through
:40:27. > :40:33.the state of their governing body telling us from on high what we can
:40:33. > :40:38.or cannot say. It is through getting to know each other, mixing,
:40:38. > :40:44.and it is not the state's job to play a role. It is down to
:40:44. > :40:52.individuals. You have got a gay football team, haven't you? Why is
:40:52. > :40:56.that necessary? Thought 10 years ago, there was a lot of prejudice
:40:56. > :41:02.against homosexual people in sport. So boat as a social and playing
:41:02. > :41:07.network, we were there to support people. We were there to pick up on
:41:07. > :41:17.the general feeling. Yes, the state plays a role. The state plays a
:41:17. > :41:24.role in legislation and informing and educating people. This is an
:41:24. > :41:34.issue of which is there. Racism is under the surface. Homophobe Bay is
:41:34. > :41:35.
:41:35. > :41:40.their blatantly. Is it changing, is it getting better? It is getting
:41:40. > :41:45.better, but the fault is that football has put on bigotry is that
:41:45. > :41:51.it is not really there, it is not the fault of the powers that be, it
:41:51. > :41:55.is stupid people in the terraces. They are the problem. If you are a
:41:55. > :42:01.football fan, you should revolt against that, because the vast
:42:01. > :42:04.majority do not care about race or sexuality. I would like to see that
:42:04. > :42:08.brought this of mind creeping into the dinosaurs who run football.
:42:08. > :42:11.APPLAUSE If you have views about that debate just logon to
:42:11. > :42:14.bbc.co.uk/the big questions and follow the links to where you can
:42:14. > :42:17.continue the discussion online. Or send us your views about our last
:42:17. > :42:20.big question, do we need religion to create a moral society? And if
:42:20. > :42:24.you would like to be in the audience at a future show you can
:42:24. > :42:34.email us. We are in Bury next week, then after Easter we are in
:42:34. > :42:39.
:42:39. > :42:42.Brighton on April 15th, and Bristol In churches, temples and mosques
:42:43. > :42:47.they preach about the dangers of sin and the rewards of keeping to
:42:47. > :42:53.the path of righteousness. But not all religious people are good, and
:42:53. > :42:55.not all good people are religious. There have been many humanitarians
:42:55. > :42:57.and philanthropists who are agnostic or atheist, from the
:42:57. > :43:07.philosophers David Hume and John Stuart Mill to Microsoft's Bill
:43:07. > :43:13.
:43:13. > :43:23.Gates. Do we need religion to Dr Stephen Law, do we need religion
:43:23. > :43:25.
:43:25. > :43:30.If you look at China, for two millennia, it was very moral and
:43:30. > :43:35.that morality was based on Confucius, it was a secular
:43:35. > :43:42.doctrine, you find more less the same moral codes, the golden rule,
:43:42. > :43:46.do as you would be done by. That was the message of Confucius. You
:43:46. > :43:50.find societies that are very moral and have similar levels of morality
:43:50. > :43:57.to religious societies, such as Europe under Christianity, so it is
:43:57. > :44:01.a straightforward counter argument to the claim that you cannot have
:44:01. > :44:07.morality without remission. morality predate religion?
:44:08. > :44:11.would have to ask a scientist! They both clearly have deep roots in
:44:11. > :44:15.history and to some extent it looks like there is perhaps a genetic
:44:15. > :44:23.component to both. All those tendencies that we have to be moral
:44:23. > :44:30.and went towards religion. Bishop David? Do you believe that morality
:44:30. > :44:33.comes from God? Yes, I do, but then I believe in God. Clearly, people
:44:33. > :44:38.who want to little more life or create a framework can choose to do
:44:38. > :44:42.so without God. What is needed is a framework that human beings Irish
:44:42. > :44:47.and they know this from our own vulnerability as Terry children
:44:47. > :44:51.with a framework. And there is some basic understandings of right and
:44:51. > :44:57.wrong, what is true and not true, and what is the right way to treat
:44:57. > :45:02.each other. We touched on that already. A as we have established,
:45:02. > :45:06.one person's morality is another person's bigotry? This is a very
:45:06. > :45:10.common problem today, that we make it up as we go along and it is
:45:10. > :45:15.interesting to talk about the Chinese government and its present
:45:15. > :45:20.interest in understanding what the framework is for a human being that
:45:20. > :45:24.has entered into the free market and is trying to aspire to their
:45:24. > :45:30.own family life, what is a moral framework? That is why Christianity
:45:30. > :45:34.is booming in China at the moment. Because people seek not only just
:45:34. > :45:39.their own safety and physical needs but they also need spiritual
:45:39. > :45:44.nourishment and so the roots of much morality, and we talked about
:45:44. > :45:48.the law courts, is rooted in an understanding that we need a
:45:48. > :45:54.framework and the people can that - - can connect that up not just with
:45:54. > :45:58.logic and measurable things but also things of the spread. I think
:45:58. > :46:02.that what is most important is that be produced good citizens. And the
:46:02. > :46:06.kind of cities in that and would want to hold up as a model would be
:46:06. > :46:11.the kind of citizens who rescued Jews during the Holocaust and
:46:11. > :46:16.research has been done into their backgrounds and it turns out that
:46:16. > :46:19.what motivated those individuals was not religious belief. They did
:46:19. > :46:25.not appear to be much more religious than those who did not
:46:25. > :46:29.rescue. What marks out the rescuers is that they raised to think and
:46:29. > :46:34.question and think about things from other points of view.
:46:34. > :46:38.right thing for the right reason? Two openly discuss and not just
:46:38. > :46:43.passively accept whatever they were told. You can raise children like
:46:43. > :46:47.that within a religious setting, it isn't incompatible, but also a
:46:47. > :46:56.outside religion and it does not what you very much whether it is
:46:56. > :47:02.inside or outside, as long as you do that, that is most important.
:47:02. > :47:06.You believe that a fear of God is necessary? I actually agree with
:47:06. > :47:12.Stephen, there is maybe a genetic component and Muslims believe that
:47:12. > :47:18.God has created human beings with moral understanding within them so
:47:18. > :47:23.we know that certain things are not right. We do have that moral
:47:23. > :47:29.compass within ourselves, we are born without, but human beings, and
:47:29. > :47:36.our own rationale, is wonderful but it is fallible. We can be assuaged
:47:36. > :47:40.by things around us and the way that society becomes so obsessive
:47:40. > :47:44.about wasting the world's resources and there was a time when our own
:47:44. > :47:48.intellect told us that it was perfectly OK for a white person to
:47:48. > :47:56.treat a black person as inferior because they are inferior and that
:47:56. > :48:01.was our intellect. Slavery has not been the monopoly of white people?
:48:01. > :48:07.I am talking about the intellect. Slavery is mentioned in the Koran,
:48:07. > :48:14.the Bible. Not just mentioned, it is overtly allowed within these
:48:15. > :48:19.texts. Certainly within the Bible. That is another part of the Old
:48:19. > :48:26.Testament, that gets revised so we can ignore that whilst paying
:48:26. > :48:32.attention to Leviticus 20. I am not suggesting that we do not know some
:48:32. > :48:37.adept to especially Abraham like religions. For disseminating
:48:37. > :48:43.general ideas about humanist principles and making people that
:48:43. > :48:47.would not have perhaps obeyed them, obey them. What do we need religion
:48:47. > :48:52.now have to be amoral society? That would suggest we are regressive
:48:52. > :48:57.creatures and we're going backwards? No, we do not be that.
:48:57. > :49:05.We are going backwards. Look at society, look at our youngsters.
:49:05. > :49:10.would be due to be more specific. Specifics? OK, look at the rate of
:49:10. > :49:15.youngsters that now have no father figures and the kids on our streets
:49:16. > :49:18.who are having children, it says in the Bible that children will start
:49:18. > :49:24.having children because they are living away from what the Bible
:49:24. > :49:31.says... Can you point to a better time than now, some golden age when
:49:31. > :49:37.there was proper adherence to what you believe in? My grandparents,
:49:37. > :49:43.they have been married for the best part of 60 years, they have had one
:49:43. > :49:47.partner, their children are there, they are married, it is within the
:49:47. > :49:52.convenience of the church and is consecrated by job and because of
:49:52. > :49:58.their upbringing, the child has a better chance. I am not saying that
:49:58. > :50:04.single parents are going to struggle but what I do say is that
:50:04. > :50:08.if you are married and you have a father and a mother, you have a
:50:08. > :50:11.better chance of surviving. I am not sure there is any statistic
:50:12. > :50:18.that shows that questions are somehow staying married more than
:50:18. > :50:21.it tastes, for example. Or secular people. Of course, some of the
:50:21. > :50:25.things you say are true but the idea that the only variable between
:50:25. > :50:29.the time when every family was together and there were picket
:50:29. > :50:34.fences and this time round of near Armageddon that is being suggested
:50:34. > :50:44.is just the decline of religion, it isn't. There are so many other
:50:44. > :50:45.
:50:45. > :50:50.factors. Morals can be exceeded by the use of reason. The difference
:50:50. > :50:53.is that you have no way to then ground that within society and the
:50:53. > :50:57.individual and that is where religion plays a role because it
:50:57. > :51:01.connects the individual to broader society and when you pray you
:51:01. > :51:06.reconnect with those courtly values, the universal moral values and when
:51:06. > :51:11.you fast you think about poor people. All of these rituals are
:51:11. > :51:15.there to connected to other people and research suggests that
:51:15. > :51:19.religious institutions and organisations are better at
:51:19. > :51:24.creating civic networks and the Oxford Handbook of religion show
:51:24. > :51:34.that religious Americans are better at being civic activists in voting,
:51:34. > :51:34.
:51:34. > :51:41.giving to charity. Is that a moral society? Sociologists find it
:51:41. > :51:47.difficult to measure the this. USA is the most religious society
:51:47. > :51:51.in the Western world. It is easier to measure self proclaimed, how
:51:52. > :51:55.often you attend church and give to charity and pray. That is connected
:51:55. > :52:04.to civic activism. It is no surprise that one in 10 young
:52:04. > :52:13.people in Britain feel they have no responsibility for the elderly.
:52:13. > :52:18.There is a lot to respond to and some of that is right, religion is
:52:18. > :52:23.a very good social at Pisa, quite good at finding people together
:52:23. > :52:28.into communities. But it is also true that if you run fossa the
:52:28. > :52:31.programmes in schools, those children are also transformed, they
:52:31. > :52:34.become more interested in interacting with each other. You
:52:34. > :52:40.can build communities using religion or without religion and
:52:40. > :52:43.the thing about the philosophical approach, let me finish, is that
:52:43. > :52:53.everyone is included. You don't have the effect of different
:52:53. > :52:53.
:52:54. > :52:59.religions and as they bind people, they produce divisions. Someone is
:52:59. > :53:08.your brother in humanity or faith. I like what you're saying but I do
:53:08. > :53:13.not agree. If we took religion out of it, it would be one man's word
:53:13. > :53:18.over another as to what morality is. You could state that this is moral
:53:18. > :53:23.and I could stay at something else. They is an example of that, you
:53:23. > :53:29.think that all Muslim women should wear their hijab. There is a lady
:53:29. > :53:34.that does not. Is she being immoral? I do not think so but my
:53:34. > :53:37.personal belief and that is her personal belief. I do not know her
:53:37. > :53:45.life story or when she was born or where she was born or even her full
:53:45. > :53:51.name. That is an example of what you're saying. One person's
:53:51. > :53:55.morality. I also believe that women who have some disabilities that can
:53:55. > :54:01.at, should not wear their hijab. There are plenty of reasons why
:54:01. > :54:06.that should be. This is my very personal belief. I do not believe
:54:06. > :54:10.in enforcing it on anybody. Most religions are actually involved in
:54:10. > :54:13.civic networks in which they have to feed the poor and look after the
:54:13. > :54:18.elderly and they are buttressing wear the state is failing us and
:54:18. > :54:21.without them, we would be poor. They are also massively involved in
:54:21. > :54:25.politics, in which case they do things like trying to prevent gay
:54:25. > :54:32.people from adopting, stopping them from having codified relationships.
:54:32. > :54:40.They are not just this benign organisations. The question is out
:54:40. > :54:44.to flawed. Sorry about that! The us religion brink and more moral
:54:44. > :54:48.society? Do we always want that more moral society if you then
:54:48. > :54:53.condemn people who you consider to be immoral? In other words, one
:54:53. > :54:57.person's definition of morality is another person's immorality. During
:54:57. > :55:03.the Crusades, the Chris's for morality persecuted and killed lots
:55:03. > :55:06.of people who were deemed immoral. In a born-again Christian sense,
:55:06. > :55:11.homosexuality is immoral and in my view, some of the most moral people
:55:11. > :55:21.I have ever met have been homosexual. I am not saying I have
:55:21. > :55:22.
:55:22. > :55:28.got a problem. There is a point. We look at the history of religion and
:55:28. > :55:33.it is drenched in blood. Drenched in humanity. The Middle East is
:55:33. > :55:42.about ancient religious claims to a strip of land. It is about politics
:55:42. > :55:46.and gas and oil. Stalham and Mal were not religious people. There is
:55:46. > :55:50.a tremendous amount of politics. But on the one hand, religion is as
:55:50. > :55:55.powerful entity and on the other, the moment anything bad happens
:55:55. > :56:03.within it, that is politics. You have to take some responsibility.
:56:03. > :56:08.What is the difference between that moral and immoral person? With
:56:08. > :56:14.someone who has God on your shoulder backing up, those words
:56:14. > :56:24.then have double the impact? There is a much better insight into the
:56:24. > :56:26.
:56:26. > :56:32.Almighty than perhaps I do. But it... The main thing about this
:56:32. > :56:36.agenda is that human beings need to live together. In harmony. They
:56:36. > :56:41.need to seek creative flourishing, whoever they are, whatever their
:56:41. > :56:44.colour or creed, and at the same time, we need to allow for the
:56:44. > :56:48.flourishing of that extraordinary thing in human beings, which seeks
:56:48. > :56:53.the other and that description of love. That is extremely difficult
:56:54. > :56:58.to measure but raises the spirit and questions find that love in the
:56:58. > :57:02.person of Jesus, face-to-face and also in the ability to sort things
:57:02. > :57:06.out when things go wrong. We have mentioned all sorts of negative
:57:06. > :57:10.things today and that is one of the basic experiences of human beings
:57:10. > :57:14.and therefore, the ability to be forgiven and know that you can
:57:14. > :57:20.forgive in order to pick up and move on is that the heart of many
:57:20. > :57:25.people's religious practice. What about those people who are
:57:25. > :57:29.unarguably wonderful people, all Trust, but to do this not because
:57:29. > :57:37.they believe there is some Creator but because they think it is the
:57:37. > :57:44.right thing? I say, praise the Lord! A They don't! A Christian
:57:44. > :57:48.understanding of God is big enough to encompass the whole cosmos.
:57:48. > :57:52.think that each one was ultimately has some responsibility for making
:57:52. > :57:57.our own moral decisions and Winnie the inner resources to fall back on
:57:57. > :58:01.to make those. There and I have no problem with religion whatsoever,
:58:01. > :58:06.in terms of providing guidance, but you need to ultimately make your
:58:06. > :58:14.own decision, do not treat your religion as a moral compass -- that