:00:27. > :00:33.Good morning. Welcome to The Big Questions live from Manchester. I
:00:33. > :00:37.Nicky Campbell. Yesterday, restaged by the EDL in Denmark to launch a
:00:37. > :00:44.counter-jihad movement was attended by only 300 people from five
:00:44. > :00:49.countries. 4,000 demonstrated against them. But many said the
:00:49. > :00:53.meeting had more strategic said -- significance than suggested. A
:00:53. > :00:58.Tommy Robinson, the leader of the deal, says he will continue to
:00:59. > :01:03.expose the threat from Islamism to the culture of the UK and Europe.
:01:03. > :01:09.The average age of turning to prostitution is just 15, despite it
:01:09. > :01:16.being illegal to pay for sex with somebody younger than 18. She
:01:16. > :01:22.looked older is often a defence. It is being looked at whether to raise
:01:22. > :01:27.the age to 21. Should it be illegal to pay for sex with a young adult?
:01:28. > :01:32.Helen Wood turned to prostitution at the age of just 19 which led to
:01:32. > :01:38.a liaison with Wayne Rooney. Welcome, everybody to The Big
:01:39. > :01:42.Questions. At yesterday's meeting of anti-
:01:42. > :01:45.Islamist groups in Essien was labelled a damp squib in the papers
:01:45. > :01:54.this morning, but those who launched a counter-demonstration
:01:54. > :02:02.said we should not underestimate. The trial of Anders Behring Breivik
:02:02. > :02:08.begins in two weeks. Good morning. On a previous rally, this was at
:02:08. > :02:15.Tower Hamlets, I just want to see where you are coming from. You said,
:02:15. > :02:20.every single Muslim watching this, on 7/7 comedy got away with killing
:02:20. > :02:23.and maiming British citizens. You got away with it. You had better
:02:23. > :02:28.understand that we have built a network from one end of this
:02:28. > :02:31.country to the other, and we will not tolerate it and the Islamic
:02:31. > :02:40.community will feel the full force of the English Defence League if we
:02:40. > :02:46.see any of our citizens killed or hurt on British soil again. Yeah.
:02:46. > :02:49.Basically, we were highlighted as we have done from day one, protest
:02:49. > :02:54.peacefully and bring it to the media attention. That does sound
:02:54. > :03:01.peaceful. That sounds very threatening. It is not a threat, it
:03:01. > :03:05.is a promise. It is, we will continue to deal with it. Nobody is
:03:05. > :03:11.dealing with the Islamic groups. We have more extremists than ever
:03:11. > :03:18.before. What do you mean by a "full forced"? I mean by taking to the
:03:18. > :03:22.streets. What do you mean by "every single Muslim"? I mean, every
:03:22. > :03:27.single Muslim in the community. Stop brushing it under the carpet
:03:27. > :03:37.and pretending it is not there. People think you're just a bunch of
:03:37. > :03:38.
:03:38. > :03:46.thugs. I stood up on stage and we had a break-in point in our
:03:46. > :03:53.movement where we had neo-Nazis trying to get on the hour bandwagon.
:03:53. > :03:58.I called them up and then I head- butted him. He was shouting abuse.
:03:58. > :04:08.When I got back to the coach, I was confronted by another 30 Nazis. I
:04:08. > :04:09.
:04:09. > :04:19.get weekly death threats from them. Are you an anti-Nazi movement?
:04:19. > :04:21.
:04:21. > :04:28.Nazis and it Islamism is the key opposite side of a coin. -- they
:04:28. > :04:32.are the same sides of a coin. has been said, they are trying to
:04:32. > :04:40.do something and they have politicised a whole generation of
:04:40. > :04:46.youngsters. Used to be in the BNP, but knew? Yes. In 2004. Before I
:04:46. > :04:53.joined the BMP, did not know that non-white people could not join. --
:04:53. > :04:58.the b n people stop you thought it was a multi-racial organisation?
:04:58. > :05:04.Added not know he was a not see. For him saying, we are morons. I
:05:04. > :05:12.watched him on Question Time. dangerous do you believe the EDL
:05:12. > :05:17.is? I think Tommy and his organisation are extremely
:05:17. > :05:22.dangerous. They peddle hate and myths at a time when we have seen
:05:22. > :05:29.spikes in Islamophobia and raised raid. We see attacks across the
:05:29. > :05:36.UK... Have you been threatened? have been threatened and had lied
:05:36. > :05:40.cases. I have been threatened with violence myself. This is not about
:05:40. > :05:48.me, though. As a society, we have your organisation, which is
:05:48. > :05:56.paddling hate, which is hurting, alienating and you are denigrating
:05:56. > :06:02.cor communities. It has be made very, very clear. This is about
:06:02. > :06:12.Islam. I am not sure you can even be fine Islamism. Some of my best
:06:12. > :06:16.friends are Muslims. I don't hate all Muslims. Muslim is the first
:06:16. > :06:21.step to extreme Islam. I have always said that. When it comes to
:06:21. > :06:25.paddling hate. When you say you were threatened on Twitter, I have
:06:25. > :06:32.been in hospital with bruising to my brain, I have had eight stitches
:06:32. > :06:39.in my lip. My children have been threatened. So don't tell me about
:06:39. > :06:41.being threatened. Do you not think for a second you are part of an
:06:41. > :06:49.organisation, and you win in Denmark yesterday and you are
:06:49. > :06:59.bedfellows with people saying that they want to outlaw he job and
:06:59. > :07:00.
:07:00. > :07:05.export Muslims and pay them to have government! -- to have governments
:07:05. > :07:11.send them away. The people that show it to a greater or lesser
:07:11. > :07:15.extent some of the concerns that Tommy took -- attempts to
:07:15. > :07:19.articulate, do they not count? think they are important but we
:07:19. > :07:27.have a major problem in this country, in that there has been no
:07:27. > :07:37.a proper debate about Islam. Almost every Muslim I have met, Islam is
:07:37. > :07:42.shown to be inclusive... What about extremist sects? This is the United
:07:42. > :07:45.Kingdom. We are talking about Muslims and Islam in the United
:07:45. > :07:51.Kingdom, which is inclusive and tolerant and supportive and
:07:51. > :07:56.encouraging of other faiths. In Islam, we say there is no
:07:56. > :08:03.compulsion in religion. It is not about oppression, it is actually
:08:03. > :08:09.about providing freedom for people. And not the kind of fear of York
:08:09. > :08:14.Organisation pedals. If there will be 1,000 sitting at home who don't
:08:14. > :08:21.see things integrating. -- there will be thousands of people sitting
:08:21. > :08:29.at home who don't see things integrating. You are not talking
:08:29. > :08:38.about political extremism. You are talking about all Muslims. I am not
:08:38. > :08:42.talking about Muslims. I am talking about Islam. But you think all
:08:42. > :08:50.Muslims are likely extremists? can you say that? I have just told
:08:50. > :08:58.you... I have just said some of the best people I've met growing up are
:08:58. > :09:06.Muslim. Islam is a seventh century ideology. It is not just me
:09:06. > :09:12.thinking it is failing... Let him finish. The fastest growing parties
:09:12. > :09:18.across Europe are anti-Islamist parties. It needs to evolve and
:09:18. > :09:23.modernise and you can't call me a worship -- a fascist or racist for
:09:23. > :09:27.pointing out this ideology. significant of the EDL? Are a
:09:27. > :09:31.changing the discourse in the country? There are significant and
:09:31. > :09:37.they represent the grievances in society. But many watching the show
:09:37. > :09:41.may be concerned about the way in which organisations like EDL tend
:09:41. > :09:48.to have a lot of slippage in the way they talk about Islam. So they
:09:48. > :09:54.talk about militant Islam but they it openly talk about Muslims as
:09:54. > :09:58.well. We have to be very precise in our terminology. When we look at
:09:58. > :10:06.the evidence and the survey and the research being done, the majority
:10:06. > :10:10.of Muslims do not endorse terrorism or violence. The vast majority feel
:10:10. > :10:14.strongly attached to their country and their neighbourhood. And the
:10:14. > :10:24.vast majority of Muslims in this country do not endorse things like
:10:24. > :10:27.
:10:27. > :10:31.honour killings. But under Sharia law, women are treated as second-
:10:31. > :10:39.rate citizens. You will get 50% less than a man in a law court.
:10:39. > :10:44.That is not on. What I find really interesting... What I find
:10:44. > :10:47.interesting about your organisation is, I was looking at your website
:10:47. > :10:53.yesterday, and you are trying to say you are a human rights
:10:53. > :11:02.organisation. I find that quite farcical. Basically, organisation
:11:02. > :11:08.pedals hate and misinformation. Last month, two Asian men were
:11:08. > :11:13.beaten to a pulp by men who claimed they were sympathising with
:11:13. > :11:18.extremism. It was discussed in court. They have gone to prison.
:11:18. > :11:23.Two weeks ago in Salford, a black woman was walking in broad daylight,
:11:24. > :11:28.2pm, pushing her child in a pram and a man racially abused her and
:11:28. > :11:35.used sexual language and threw acid at her. Racism is very much a
:11:35. > :11:38.reality of people's lives. If the other side of this is, it to the
:11:38. > :11:45.Muslim community need to do more to separate themselves from their
:11:45. > :11:53.extremist wings? There are young men who want to cure their fellow
:11:53. > :11:58.Britons. -- to kill. What you think about the poppy-burners? I think
:11:58. > :12:02.they are extremists, just like you are an extremist. You talk about
:12:02. > :12:12.human rights. The European Court of Human Rights did an in-depth study
:12:12. > :12:22.and a -- and they've found that Sharia law was incompatible with
:12:22. > :12:26.
:12:26. > :12:36.modern views and law. Why do your members wear toy pig masks and
:12:36. > :12:41.
:12:41. > :12:44.carry bacon? And you have dressed up as Anders Behring Breivik?
:12:45. > :12:51.misquoted me. I was using the noise that a frog makes because I look
:12:51. > :13:00.like a frog. What are these pig masks about? I don't know. I don't
:13:00. > :13:06.wear those. The point is, within society, you are worried about this
:13:06. > :13:10.country becoming more and more Islam and you are worried about
:13:10. > :13:15.that happening in Europe because of fear. Fear that does not need to
:13:15. > :13:24.exist. If you understood the Islamic contribution to the society
:13:25. > :13:31.in arts, society, music, literature, maths... But Christian populations
:13:31. > :13:40.across the world are being massacred... You cannot be
:13:40. > :13:48.misguided by the actions of a few individuals. We are talking about
:13:48. > :13:51.the far right. Can you define that to me? There are two key things
:13:51. > :13:57.that far-right groups share. Firstly, they undermined what
:13:58. > :14:01.liberal democracy is all about. It accepts that a plurality of views
:14:01. > :14:05.is littered -- legitimate and we should support them and allow them.
:14:05. > :14:08.What many people would feel is that your organisation and the way in
:14:08. > :14:13.which she campaigned is automatically discounting the views
:14:14. > :14:18.of Muslims and the rise of Muslims to hold those used. Secondly, what
:14:18. > :14:21.far-right groups share... I am sure you would say you are not the same
:14:21. > :14:25.as the American Nazi Party because there is much variation in those
:14:25. > :14:29.parties. But they share a rejection of human equality and I would guess
:14:29. > :14:35.many watching the show would feel your organisation is no longer
:14:35. > :14:41.talking about militant Islam. You are just talking about Muslims.
:14:41. > :14:47.You so far right. We have got a Sikh division, a Jewish division...
:14:47. > :14:55.Sorry. Matthew is an expert from the far-right. You were brought up
:14:55. > :15:02.in Kettering. No, I wasn't! What is the population of Muslims where you
:15:02. > :15:06.grew up? Where you grew up, there has been no Muslims or immigration.
:15:06. > :15:12.When your children go to a school where other age children's fathers
:15:12. > :15:17.are teaching them hatred and those views, then you can be an expert.
:15:17. > :15:27.Because they are out of touch with reality. Are too many politicians
:15:27. > :15:32.out of touch with what he receives Clearly, one of the reasons that
:15:32. > :15:36.groups like EDL across Europe is growing is partly a feeling that
:15:36. > :15:39.left-wing parties that should have been representing the working
:15:39. > :15:43.classes no longer understand what it is like to live in a
:15:43. > :15:46.multicultural society. Tommy can say he lives in Luton and he knows
:15:46. > :15:52.what it is like, and in Westminster you have no idea but the question
:15:52. > :15:55.is whether we are complacent. For all the bluster that EDL can
:15:55. > :16:02.present each week, and they get lots of media coverage, there is
:16:02. > :16:06.not many of them. Most of them or online, on Facebook and forums, but
:16:06. > :16:15.they cannot get more than 400 people in the streets. Look at the
:16:15. > :16:22.BNP in the UK, it calls 2% or 1%, and across the rest of Europe, it
:16:22. > :16:26.is polling 20%. There never has been, maybe in the Thirties there
:16:26. > :16:30.was a brief shining moment, but there has been no tradition of
:16:30. > :16:34.electoral success for far-right parties in this country. A lot of
:16:34. > :16:37.that has to do with the system that we have. We are just as concerned
:16:37. > :16:41.about the far right issues and they do not think those issues should be
:16:41. > :16:46.discounted, they need to be talked about. That is probably the only
:16:46. > :16:50.point of convergence that we would have. In Britain particularly,
:16:50. > :16:54.because of the failure of parties like the BNP and the National Front,
:16:54. > :16:57.we have tended to be extra dismissive about the far right. We
:16:57. > :17:02.have dismissed it as a lunatic fringe to do not deserve to have
:17:02. > :17:06.their grievances talk about, and I do not think that is right. It is
:17:06. > :17:09.because people do not want to vote for groups like the BNP. The
:17:09. > :17:16.average person the joins the English Defence League is an
:17:16. > :17:22.average man. There is quite a lot of crossover. The reality is that
:17:22. > :17:25.the type of narratives these parties offer are very similar.
:17:25. > :17:31.Jamie's study has shown that EDL supporters are concerned about
:17:31. > :17:34.immigration generally. I think many people are. I have a huge problem
:17:34. > :17:38.with the way this debate is being defined because the implication
:17:38. > :17:43.seems to be that there needs to be proactive steps taken by government
:17:43. > :17:48.to stop people from expressing their opinions. You cannot say this
:17:48. > :17:53.because I do not agree with you, and every opportunity the EDL is
:17:53. > :17:58.taking to express themselves, the reaction is so strong to this.
:17:58. > :18:02.Actually, what we should be asking is, why does the EDL exist in the
:18:02. > :18:09.first place? Why is it that these people feel so disenfranchised that
:18:09. > :18:12.they have to look to the EDL rather than local councillors? There is a
:18:12. > :18:16.deficit here in terms of representing these people's views.
:18:17. > :18:20.Whether you agree with them or not, we live in a democracy and the idea
:18:20. > :18:26.is that people are able to express their opinions, whatever they may
:18:26. > :18:33.be. That is fair enough. And there are people who have these concerns
:18:33. > :18:38.to a greater or lesser extent. It will volunteers. -- We are all
:18:38. > :18:44.volunteers. There are legitimate issues that need to be discussed on
:18:44. > :18:48.race, immigration, all those issues. Across Europe, these issues are
:18:49. > :18:54.being manipulated by mainstream parties. They are not. There is
:18:54. > :19:00.definitely an increase in far-right activity. When you say far right,...
:19:00. > :19:06.Led to finish. -- let her finish. There needs to be an accurate
:19:06. > :19:10.debate. Let us talk accurately. Let's not used misinformation.
:19:10. > :19:17.would you like, and this is an important question, what would you
:19:17. > :19:21.like the Muslim communities in this country, and they come in many
:19:22. > :19:29.different forms, what would you like them to do? Integrate and
:19:29. > :19:34.assimilate. To find that. He cannot call everyone who opposes Islam far
:19:34. > :19:41.right. What you mean by integrate and assimilate? How would that
:19:41. > :19:47.look? If you go to Luton, half my mates are West Indians. How come
:19:47. > :19:55.the Jews, the Sikhs, the West Indians are integrated? There is no
:19:55. > :20:05.commotion. 38 goals on Friday in court in Oxford, 12 Muslim men
:20:05. > :20:05.
:20:05. > :20:12.and... Sexual perverts come in all races. When will Muslims take to
:20:12. > :20:16.the streets in outrage against this -- their fellow Muslims? The first
:20:16. > :20:22.issue is this. If they are criminals, they are criminals and
:20:22. > :20:27.their ethnicity and race and religion has nothing to do with it.
:20:27. > :20:31.Secondly, within Islam we have women's rights, we have men's
:20:31. > :20:37.rights and we have rights for children. We are very moral and
:20:37. > :20:43.quite conservative. Your idea of the simulation would -- and mean
:20:43. > :20:48.that I should not have a beard, wear a hat or walk around like this.
:20:48. > :20:57.No one has said what needed to be said. In my home town, there have
:20:57. > :21:04.been four armed robberies by people wearing burkas. What would she like
:21:04. > :21:08.-- how would you like these people to behave differently? All these
:21:08. > :21:13.organisations that you are affiliated with either give money
:21:13. > :21:19.to charities that fund extremism or Islamist organisations. There is no
:21:19. > :21:23.evidence of that. That is a slander. You are not affiliated with the
:21:23. > :21:28.Islamic Forum of Europe, named as an Islamist organisation? The fact
:21:28. > :21:33.of the matter is that this issue is about complacency with your
:21:33. > :21:38.organisation. We can argue about the definition of far right is, but
:21:38. > :21:42.we have scholars and studies saying that the rhetoric and language used
:21:42. > :21:52.by your organisation is in parallel with the anti-Semitism that came in
:21:52. > :21:53.
:21:53. > :21:57.the 1930s before the Holocaust. will have another chance. There
:21:57. > :22:02.were lots of pro Israeli flags at the demonstration yesterday, which
:22:02. > :22:05.is an interesting phenomenon. think the debate is characteristic.
:22:05. > :22:11.I do not think the deal is that they can they do not think it will
:22:11. > :22:14.get much bigger. It represents grievances the people have and the
:22:14. > :22:17.idea of getting out and doing something is quite appealing, but
:22:18. > :22:21.the fact is that the way the media landscape has changed in the last
:22:21. > :22:26.five or 10 years has meant that Tommy is always reading stories
:22:26. > :22:32.about Sharia law being about to be introduced, and other people are
:22:32. > :22:36.reading stories about EDL, and it becomes very polarised. Because the
:22:36. > :22:43.EDL is predominantly an online organisation that sends each
:22:43. > :22:49.other's -- cents each other links, it is group think. Men the of us
:22:49. > :22:54.are guilty of group think. -- many of us. I think it is unfortunate
:22:54. > :22:57.that the far right are getting all the press when it comes to
:22:57. > :23:05.criticism of Islam. I think there is a lot that needs to be
:23:05. > :23:11.criticised in a free democracy about Islam. But Islamists in
:23:11. > :23:17.particular. The main problems icy or that embedded in Islamic
:23:17. > :23:23.theology and culture is the idea of Jihad. It has been going on for
:23:23. > :23:28.1500 years. With respect, we have debated this on many occasions. My
:23:28. > :23:38.question this morning, are we too complacent about the far right?
:23:38. > :23:39.
:23:39. > :23:44.think we are too complacent about the far right of Islamism. I think
:23:44. > :23:51.politicians are sparking the fires. Jack Straw, many of the mainstream
:23:51. > :23:56.politicians are discussing issues like grooming, extremism, and
:23:56. > :24:02.defined -- I find that organisations like the EDL jump on
:24:02. > :24:07.those issues. The discussion is, are we too complacent in tolerating
:24:07. > :24:11.BTL? The public space has already been given to these organisations
:24:11. > :24:17.and the rhetoric from the politicians gives these movement's
:24:18. > :24:24.credibility. -- the EDL. I wonder what do you think about this. Is it
:24:24. > :24:28.good to have Mr Robinson on this morning so that we can examine and
:24:28. > :24:32.analyse and assess what he is saying? You wanted to ban them at
:24:32. > :24:40.one stage. If you and your family ever want to come and meet my
:24:40. > :24:45.family, you're more than welcome. Let me just finish. I have no
:24:45. > :24:54.hatred for you. While we're sat here, most of us can hear a protest
:24:54. > :25:03.going on outside. They attacked a lady. She was spat on. In his eight
:25:03. > :25:08.people. -- it is eight people. Winston Churchill was a famous
:25:08. > :25:11.Islamophobia. I think it is important that you're here and that
:25:11. > :25:16.we have this debate. It is important that we have a discourse
:25:16. > :25:20.to challenge these things. I have a problem that if the Government
:25:20. > :25:24.decides that organisations who are not conducive to the public good,
:25:24. > :25:27.whether it is Muslims against Crusades or any other organisation,
:25:27. > :25:32.if the Government decides to ban them, and I have a copy of a letter
:25:32. > :25:38.that I wrote to the Home Secretary. James Brokenshire wrote back to me
:25:38. > :25:46.and said that they had decided not to prescribe the English dispense
:25:46. > :25:52.League. Why five members... Anders Breivik made it very clear that he
:25:52. > :26:00.had influence and links with the EDL. On page 1438 of his manifesto
:26:00. > :26:06.he said EDL is anti- racist, anti- Nazi and naive fools. And on page
:26:06. > :26:11.1242 he said that he had met with an shared ideology with...
:26:11. > :26:17.problem I have, if 38 Muslim Corus had been raped her in the last
:26:17. > :26:23.three weeks, country would be on fire. The country would have been
:26:23. > :26:28.on fire. I am from Oxford. Everybody's DRS... Your daughters
:26:28. > :26:33.are not being raped, ours are. are making more or noise than the
:26:33. > :26:37.people outside. I am from Oxford and there is a case going on at the
:26:37. > :26:43.moment, Thames Valley Police are investigating grooming of young
:26:43. > :26:48.women. A similar case. 11-year-old children, our daughters. Can I just
:26:48. > :26:52.speak? Thank you very much. There has been a similar case in Rochdale.
:26:52. > :26:57.Some supporters of the EDL showed up at Liverpool Crown Court where
:26:57. > :27:03.the case is going to court, and that trial had to be temporarily
:27:03. > :27:12.halted. A barrister rang me. Does the EDL short but cases were white
:27:12. > :27:22.men have been grinning Corus? men are not allowed to sit outside
:27:22. > :27:23.
:27:23. > :27:28.A* -- grooming Corus. I am totally anti- fascist, 100%. I got arrested
:27:28. > :27:32.last year for throwing eggs at this lot. I am not against you guys as
:27:32. > :27:36.an organisation advocating love for everyone. That is what I'm about.
:27:36. > :27:45.But there is an elephant in the room. Even the Asian community, and
:27:46. > :27:52.this is not an Islamic issue... but it is an Islamic issue. How old
:27:52. > :27:55.was the Prophet Mohammed when he had sex with a child? They are
:27:55. > :27:59.represented and the grooming of young girls and unfortunately, that
:27:59. > :28:05.has been statistically shown. The Asian communities are working with
:28:05. > :28:10.those men to sort out those issues. John Mann, MP. And we should not
:28:10. > :28:18.shy away from issues any more... Any more than we should shy away
:28:18. > :28:26.from problems with the Catholic Church and Catholic priests. They
:28:26. > :28:31.are hijacking it. There are many problems. The EDL is a tiny
:28:31. > :28:39.organisation and I think that they would be far better off, is that Mr
:28:39. > :28:47.Robinson? If instead of Saughton -- starting aggressive marches, if he
:28:47. > :28:51.accepted the dinner Invite, I think that would be a better way...
:28:51. > :28:57.have got this extraordinary celebrity edition of Come Dine With
:28:57. > :29:03.Me coming up here. Look in's Labour-run council... Are you
:29:03. > :29:09.serious about the offer? I have a meeting next week with an a man.
:29:09. > :29:14.Luton's Labour-run council, when we asked them to facilitate a meeting
:29:14. > :29:17.between us and the Muslim leaders, they said no. I am concerned with
:29:17. > :29:23.engaging with the merits of the debate rather than the issue, which
:29:23. > :29:27.is, are we allowed to express ourselves? He is expressing itself
:29:27. > :29:31.-- and sulphur. In terms of what is happening at the moment, as a
:29:31. > :29:34.result of 30 or 40 years of multicultural thinking, it is now
:29:34. > :29:44.prohibited to even challenge certain basic things. I do not
:29:44. > :29:47.
:29:47. > :29:54.agree with the way the debate is Under the Prevention of Terrorism
:29:54. > :29:59.Act, if you insight terror, under the Communications Act, the law
:29:59. > :30:05.makes it clear and distinct what is lawful and what is not. But I do
:30:05. > :30:11.not suggesting by saying we are being complacent that the EDL is an
:30:11. > :30:18.organisation that should be banned? No... You did have a Facebook
:30:18. > :30:24.petition. If they were banned or any organisation were banned, that
:30:24. > :30:30.causes its own problems. After Anders Behring Breivik killed
:30:30. > :30:38.virtually 100 people, an absolute monster who loved EDL... Hold on a
:30:38. > :30:42.minute! My point was, he shared an ideology, and if the Government
:30:42. > :30:47.bans all organisations which share ideology with extremist
:30:47. > :30:54.organisations, the EDL have gone over that line. Some people will be
:30:54. > :31:03.able to hear the shouting outside where we are today. Are some people
:31:03. > :31:09.on the left doing this counter- productive? On your Facebook
:31:09. > :31:15.profile, you say your views are left, far left? I say I am
:31:15. > :31:19.progressive. The point is, there on militant fascists contributing to
:31:19. > :31:24.problems in towns and cities and that is an elephant in the room
:31:24. > :31:30.that is not discussed. Should the EDL be banned? No it. I think it
:31:30. > :31:33.should be heard. But at some point, the organisation has to take some
:31:33. > :31:41.responsibility for his reporting, as do some sections of the British
:31:41. > :31:48.media. Tabloids reported that two thirds of young British men endorse
:31:48. > :31:56.honour killings. They had to apologise, didn't they? Yes. If we
:31:56. > :32:00.look beyond the data, it is a completely different story. This is
:32:00. > :32:06.a European-wide movement, this counter-jihad movement, as it is
:32:06. > :32:12.called, where does the money come from? Across Europe? If your cat
:32:13. > :32:20.stays like the Netherlands, it is privately backed. -- if you look at
:32:20. > :32:24.states like the Netherlands. Others are political parties who are
:32:24. > :32:30.democratically registers. If the English Defence League goes into
:32:30. > :32:39.elections, they will have to comply with electoral law. A let's get a
:32:39. > :32:47.microphone for him. There were jihad it just means struggle. I
:32:47. > :32:50.would love to sit down with you and discuss that. I would like you to
:32:50. > :32:55.understand how I contribute to society as a Muslim because my
:32:55. > :33:00.religion asks me to do that. So let's sit down, have a coffee and
:33:00. > :33:07.have a chat. Thank you all very much for taking part in that debate.
:33:07. > :33:12.If you would like to have your say, go on to a wore site. You will find
:33:12. > :33:19.links to continue the conversation online. We are also debating in
:33:19. > :33:24.Manchester, should it be illegal to pay for sex with a young adult? We
:33:24. > :33:32.are back after Easter from Brighton on 15th April and the wheel
:33:32. > :33:35.recording two shows from Bristol on 29th April and two from West London
:33:35. > :33:40.on the 13th of May. The MP for Bassetlaw has already
:33:40. > :33:44.spoken. John Mann is piloting a Private Members' Bill through
:33:44. > :33:49.Parliament to make it a crime to have sex with a prostitute under
:33:49. > :33:53.the age of 21. Teenage prostitutes mainly work from the streets, the
:33:54. > :33:58.most dangerous place to be. Many end up in care and on heroin.
:33:58. > :34:04.Should it be illegal to have sex with a young adult? Why should this
:34:04. > :34:08.work, John Mann? I think it will work because... It won't solve all
:34:08. > :34:12.problems, but we think he will change the culture that is there
:34:12. > :34:18.and create a breathing space to allow more interventions with very
:34:18. > :34:22.vulnerable young women and with young men as well. I come from this
:34:22. > :34:26.having done a lot of work in my area on drugs and young people who
:34:26. > :34:31.are on drugs, and a lot of work as well on young people who have been
:34:31. > :34:39.thrown out of home or have left home. But it is not working at the
:34:39. > :34:44.moment. That is the problem. There is this get out clause of "I
:34:44. > :34:52.thought she was 18". So what about people who use these services to
:34:52. > :34:58.have a less of their regard for serve but -- for law and this new
:34:58. > :35:02.statute? I think if you raise the threshold, it gives the police the
:35:02. > :35:07.ability to do something about it. And I think it will have an impact,
:35:07. > :35:14.because I think it will impact on people's behaviour. Charlie, you're
:35:14. > :35:20.shaking your head. I wish it would. I am one of the statistics are 60
:35:20. > :35:26.times more likely to end up in prison, home this or on the game. I
:35:26. > :35:32.had managed all three before I was 21 and no law would have stopped me
:35:32. > :35:35.from walking the streets. Why was that? Because I needed milk and
:35:35. > :35:40.nappies for my baby. And furthermore, I would not have got
:35:41. > :35:46.off the streets if that had been the case because brothels in the
:35:46. > :35:50.80s back then were not regulated as such, but there was a code of
:35:50. > :36:00.conduct that said, if you are under age, you cannot work here, so why
:36:00. > :36:01.
:36:01. > :36:03.would not even have got off the streets. -- so I would not. George
:36:03. > :36:12.McCoy, you are the author of McCoy's British Massage Parlour
:36:12. > :36:19.Guide. Would it trouble you if the girl were under 18? Yes. If she was
:36:19. > :36:23.18 or over? No, I don't think so. If we are talking about the girls
:36:23. > :36:29.on the streets, there on laws adequate to safeguard them as far
:36:29. > :36:33.as the kerb-crawling laws, which stop men from doing that now. And
:36:33. > :36:36.then draws in Parliament which have been visited by the economy
:36:36. > :36:45.taskforce to make sure people are paying tax, that they are all the
:36:45. > :36:49.right age, that they are not from abroad. There of girls who are 18
:36:49. > :36:54.and 19 and then men who are 18 and 19 going off to Afghanistan and
:36:54. > :37:01.coming back in a coffin. There has to be an age when you become
:37:01. > :37:07.responsible for what you do and that has been decided at 18. So if
:37:07. > :37:13.you're allowed to die for your country, why should you not be
:37:13. > :37:18.allowed to sell your body? At least when you join the Army, it is your
:37:18. > :37:25.free choice. Nobody is forcing you to sign up. You don't believe there
:37:25. > :37:31.is autonomy here? I don't believe everybody is forced... I am aware
:37:31. > :37:37.some women choose that but a vast majority don't. Don't label them
:37:37. > :37:42.with the same brush. I am not, but I have worked for 16 years with
:37:42. > :37:48.women working on the streets. I came into this work with no
:37:48. > :37:55.preconceptions but I have not met a single one who wants to be on the
:37:55. > :37:59.streets. The other week, two women came in and they wanted to own
:37:59. > :38:03.their lives but the situations they were in were so bad, so serious...
:38:03. > :38:10.But you are talking about the streets and this will affect indoor
:38:10. > :38:15.sex workers. There is a low incidence of indoor sex workers
:38:15. > :38:20.being attacked. I will come to that, but will this change things?
:38:20. > :38:24.will help, because it is about criminalising demand. Not the women
:38:24. > :38:28.on the streets. If we can reduce demand, and I would really ask that
:38:28. > :38:34.if this goes through, the Government looks at resourcing,
:38:34. > :38:41.because in that time of austerity, the number of services for women on
:38:41. > :38:47.the streets. It has to be housing... Changing the law doesn't change
:38:47. > :38:51.people's behaviour. We don't have Sharia law! I would like the
:38:51. > :38:54.campaign and the policy to be based on evidence. I am from the
:38:54. > :38:59.International Union of Sex Workers. We would like to see policy based
:39:00. > :39:07.on evidence. One point is that the average age of entry into
:39:07. > :39:11.prostitution is 15. We know that is not actually correct. There is a
:39:12. > :39:21.lot of material out of the Home Office and other material as well.
:39:22. > :39:22.
:39:22. > :39:27.The Home Office material often contradict itself. Generally, you
:39:27. > :39:32.were looking at 20 plus but for outdoor sex work you are looking at
:39:32. > :39:36.about 16. In terms of talking about who commits crimes of violence
:39:36. > :39:40.against people in the sex industry, the evidence is that it is not
:39:40. > :39:44.people paying for sex. Criminalising people who pay for
:39:44. > :39:47.sex and to treat the people they are paying with respect and
:39:47. > :39:53.consideration makes no difference in terms of tackling crimes of
:39:53. > :40:02.violence against us. It sends the message that our consent, to
:40:02. > :40:09.discriminate against the consent... When it reduced demand?
:40:09. > :40:13.evidence from Sweden is that it will not. Hang on. Prostitution has
:40:13. > :40:21.halved in Sweden. It has been massively reduced and it has had a
:40:21. > :40:24.huge impact on the women and they have put support services in place.
:40:24. > :40:28.I totally support you were doing and I promise you, I really do
:40:28. > :40:32.think what you do it is amazing, especially bearing in mind you are
:40:32. > :40:36.getting your funding cut. I have seen that with many different
:40:36. > :40:39.projects. You were doing the work for the Government but it is
:40:39. > :40:43.positive intervention with people in care that would make the
:40:43. > :40:49.difference, to stop them getting into it rather than turning around
:40:49. > :40:57.their lives when they are. When did you get into it and how? It was
:40:57. > :41:04.redundancy. There was an option. I look now and I think, of course
:41:05. > :41:09.there was an auction, now I am older. That is why the bill will
:41:09. > :41:13.help but it won't change anything. If you are in a situation where you
:41:13. > :41:17.need to provide for a child, you are going to have to find a means
:41:17. > :41:21.of doing that. But if there was more support earlier on in life, I
:41:21. > :41:26.think that would help. A massive point as well is how prostitution
:41:26. > :41:36.is perceived. Everyone is so quick to judge and kind of point the
:41:36. > :41:38.
:41:38. > :41:41.finger, but yet we have programmes that glamorise it. We have 15-year-
:41:41. > :41:44.olds, that it has been statistically proven that a
:41:44. > :41:48.prostitute themselves, but these kinds of girls watching programmes
:41:48. > :41:52.like that in the bedroom think that if they go and sell their body for
:41:52. > :41:58.sex, they can live on the River Thames and have designer clothes
:41:58. > :42:03.and this, that and the other. they have a moral framework in
:42:03. > :42:09.their family and home? Of course they do. If I had seen that, I
:42:09. > :42:14.would not have seen it as such a bad thing. And it is an issue of
:42:14. > :42:19.materialism. It used to be that women went into prostitution out of
:42:19. > :42:23.desperation. I understand it from both points of view. I went into
:42:23. > :42:27.which for money but had I been a bit younger and in support... I was
:42:27. > :42:31.in care myself and if somebody had put me in a position where they
:42:31. > :42:37.said we can do this for you instead of trapping me out on the streets...
:42:38. > :42:43.But that is what I am saying. there were some intervention where
:42:43. > :42:48.people sat you down and help you. It helps at a younger age to
:42:48. > :42:53.structure your life. I want to explore this. Would it have helped
:42:53. > :42:56.from the point of view from the men paying if it had been illegal when
:42:56. > :43:04.you're 19 to pay for sex with somebody who was 19. Would that
:43:04. > :43:08.have stopped him? No. It won't stop them anyway, even if the ban goes
:43:08. > :43:14.in place. More importantly, I know there are girls in the industry
:43:14. > :43:19.working poor are also below 18 and nobody is doing anything about it.
:43:19. > :43:23.-- who are also. The police aren't doing anything. There are foreign
:43:24. > :43:27.girls as well and nothing is done. The police know about several
:43:28. > :43:32.places where body can go and pay for sex and the girls are working
:43:32. > :43:36.there under-aged and they are actually working under false
:43:36. > :43:43.pretences and passing the money on to other people. It is not even for
:43:43. > :43:50.themselves. What makes you think this will change, John? It is not
:43:51. > :43:59.to solve all problems, but... will it solve any? I think it will.
:43:59. > :44:04.George said no to 16, 17. 18, yes. If the threshold is raised to 21,
:44:04. > :44:08.that will affect the behaviour of some of them. Changing the law
:44:08. > :44:11.doesn't change behaviour! Would it change your behaviour? I think you
:44:11. > :44:16.have to bear in mind that if somebody finds that they have had
:44:16. > :44:21.sex with somebody between 18 and 21 and it was illegal, what are they
:44:21. > :44:26.going to do? They are just going to disappear. They are not going to
:44:26. > :44:35.reported to the police. If the law were changed to 21, would you make
:44:35. > :44:42.sure the girl was 21? I don't... How what would we? Would you ask
:44:42. > :44:51.her and she would save...? Excuse me, how old are you? How do you
:44:51. > :45:01.intend to enforce this? How do you know a girl isn't under the age of
:45:01. > :45:04.
:45:04. > :45:12.The question would not have been applicable for a long time, but
:45:12. > :45:18.when... So you don't know whether you have been with a girl that is
:45:18. > :45:23.under-age? I very much doubt it. 15-year-old may have been exploited.
:45:23. > :45:26.I want to see vulnerable people on the streets not being killed. But
:45:27. > :45:35.changing the law does not change people's behaviour. We need
:45:35. > :45:45.positive intervention to stop a Rhodes going on the game. -- girls.
:45:45. > :45:47.
:45:47. > :45:51.Good morning. Any law that helps young women not to go in this
:45:51. > :45:56.direction, to reduce the number of women indulging in immoral
:45:56. > :46:03.behaviour has to be a good thing. I think this is a society thing, not
:46:03. > :46:08.just a case of changing one wall. - - one law. From a religious
:46:08. > :46:16.perspective, we need to create an environment in which the family is
:46:16. > :46:23.very strong and there is no need for a woman to feel that she needs
:46:23. > :46:29.to sell her body. I like selling my body. I am very good at what I do
:46:29. > :46:34.and I like it. What is your problem? You had your religion and
:46:34. > :46:41.I respect that. I have a different one. Unfortunately, that means that
:46:41. > :46:45.I have control over my body. The minute that young women are removed
:46:45. > :46:49.from their parents, they want to be in the driving seat. The social
:46:49. > :46:53.workers try to tell them what to do and a rebel. The reason they get
:46:53. > :46:59.groomed is because someone else sits in the back seat. That is how
:46:59. > :47:06.they get groomed. Durrell's on the street, a massive amount of been in
:47:06. > :47:11.care. -- girls. There is a tendency to want to legislate. As a lawyer,
:47:11. > :47:17.as someone who has gone through the system, there is enough hole there
:47:18. > :47:25.to protect people. You do not need to waste this energy. -- enough law.
:47:25. > :47:29.There is male prostitution issues as well. Historically, prostitutes
:47:29. > :47:37.are people who were the forerunners of the women's liberation movement.
:47:37. > :47:45.They were the first women to use contraceptives and lipstick, to
:47:45. > :47:49.dress up. All, George... Logical conclusion is that we end up like
:47:49. > :47:55.Iran. I am sorry but the majority of women that are out on the
:47:56. > :48:03.streets today are really struggling with abuse and exploitation. I do
:48:03. > :48:10.not doubt that is the case. I am personally concerns... The vast
:48:10. > :48:16.majority of indoor sex workers are not attacked. The two, it is
:48:16. > :48:21.difficult to separate... Please, let her answer. Often the women go
:48:21. > :48:25.indoors and outdoors. The girls who are on drugs and work on the street
:48:25. > :48:32.are not suitable to work in parlours. Parlour's need regular
:48:32. > :48:40.people who will turn up for chefs. Is the answer not ultimately to
:48:41. > :48:45.legalise and properly regulate? no. OK, forget that. Changing the
:48:45. > :48:50.law does not change behaviour. Proper regulation? Very simply, I
:48:50. > :48:53.am totally in favour of early intervention. We have done a lot in
:48:53. > :48:59.my area and than in the middle of trying to get that to happen. The
:48:59. > :49:03.people I meet, young boys and young girls, who are involved in this, do
:49:03. > :49:06.not want to do it. They are doing it because they have had major
:49:06. > :49:13.problems in their lives. The interventions have not been good
:49:13. > :49:18.enough. By raising VAT threshold, that create more space. Firstly, it
:49:18. > :49:23.will mean that the behaviour of some clients will change. -- that
:49:23. > :49:27.threshold. Do you seriously think it is a tidal wave of human nature?
:49:27. > :49:34.Do you think the police would go against some of these men and get
:49:34. > :49:40.them and make efforts to do so, in the current climate? They will look
:49:40. > :49:46.upon it as, we have other things to do. In areas like mine, or the
:49:46. > :49:54.police would act. If they felt that was going on. They would arrest the
:49:54. > :49:58.men and charge them. That in itself would change the behaviour. It is
:49:58. > :50:05.only one small part of dealing with the problem. I'm seeing lots of
:50:05. > :50:15.Honourable young people. On the streets! There are 18 to 21-year-
:50:15. > :50:15.
:50:15. > :50:20.old its... In this criminalising girls? We have seen what can work
:50:20. > :50:28.to stop violence against sex workers. It is prioritised as a
:50:28. > :50:32.hate crime in the Midlands, and they have achieved a 90% conviction
:50:32. > :50:37.rate for crimes of violence against St sex workers. One of the things
:50:37. > :50:42.we are campaigning for his for the roll-out of that model of policing
:50:42. > :50:47.nationwide. That successfully targets crimes of violence. If you
:50:47. > :50:52.talk to a wide range of specialist services, outside the framework on
:50:52. > :50:58.the streets, and I accept that many of the Beyond the Streets project
:50:58. > :51:03.work fairly well. Talking to projects over the last couple of
:51:03. > :51:08.days, overwhelmingly they have said that this work, such a law, if
:51:08. > :51:12.passed, would impede the work to support and protect people. It
:51:12. > :51:18.would mean people are further marginalised and excluded. Into the
:51:18. > :51:24.shadows. And the premises that included people under 21 would no
:51:24. > :51:34.longer give them access. As a person of faith, the main thing in
:51:34. > :51:38.
:51:38. > :51:44.this regard, the main cause of this, I think that marriage is the only
:51:44. > :51:48.way to uplifted the status of humanity. What a lovely world we
:51:48. > :51:58.would love them. This wonderful nirvana where religion is good and
:51:58. > :51:59.
:51:59. > :52:04.no one is a hypocrite and everyone goes home to their wife. We should
:52:05. > :52:10.look at the cause. If we're talking about a faithful marriage, fateful
:52:10. > :52:16.marriage does not mean not fulfilling physical desires.
:52:16. > :52:26.Faithful marriage really protects women socially, morally,
:52:26. > :52:26.
:52:26. > :52:33.financially. Protects? It traps us! You have made a strong point.
:52:33. > :52:37.this is very simplistic, but I would go back to the schools and
:52:37. > :52:47.education and create more jobs for people so they do not feel that
:52:47. > :52:48.
:52:48. > :52:52.they need to. Can I ask over here now, Charlie, you can go to that
:52:52. > :52:56.special dinner party we're having later on! Helen, the girls that are
:52:56. > :53:06.still doing this, what kind of money are they making? They are
:53:06. > :53:09.
:53:09. > :53:13.making a lot of money. How much? Give us an idea. It is important,
:53:13. > :53:19.because I know goals that are over 21 that will continue to do it for
:53:19. > :53:24.as long as they can. What are they making? Up to �3,000 a week.
:53:24. > :53:28.you're over 21, you are at a stage where you could make that decision
:53:29. > :53:32.for yourself. What is more important is that there are Corus
:53:32. > :53:38.of 21 and under that are not mentally stable and been forced
:53:38. > :53:47.into doing it. There is an element of force behind that. But the money
:53:47. > :53:52.still drives them. There are different angles to it. I do not
:53:52. > :53:59.see the problem with somebody Under 21 doing it. If that is their
:53:59. > :54:07.choice. If someone is being forced, and if they feel like there is no
:54:07. > :54:11.option. The ban only comes in handy if the police actually enforces it.
:54:11. > :54:15.But banning does not increase the choices people have, it does not
:54:15. > :54:20.increase the opportunities. It does not increase the range of services
:54:20. > :54:28.available. Actually, the majority of services do not take the view
:54:28. > :54:34.that you do. This gentleman here. Society is what it is. Demand has
:54:34. > :54:38.never diminished. The oldest profession and all that. I think we
:54:38. > :54:47.should be concentrating on the girls who have been trafficked, and
:54:47. > :54:51.brought into this country and manipulated by criminal gangs. We
:54:51. > :54:58.have spoken about the voluntary aspect, or semi voluntary aspect of
:54:58. > :55:07.the situation. Really, that is where the focus and attention has
:55:07. > :55:10.got to be. Grooming and trafficking are two issues. Those are
:55:10. > :55:15.vulnerable women. I am supporting what you're saying, in the main,
:55:15. > :55:19.but the biggest problem is that everyone here, bar a couple of
:55:19. > :55:24.people and people-watching, thinks that prostitutes are all the same,
:55:24. > :55:28.that they are all vulnerable and on drugs and under 18s. There are
:55:28. > :55:33.200,000 women actually in the UK working off internet portals right
:55:33. > :55:42.now, choosing to do so. This is genuinely a personal choice,
:55:42. > :55:49.autonomy? The indoor trade. There is separations. No answer says
:55:49. > :55:53.otherwise. We have to recognise that there were so -- reports out
:55:53. > :55:57.last year but said that the UK is the sex trafficking capital of the
:55:58. > :56:04.world. We have 122 serious acts of sexual violence against women every
:56:04. > :56:08.year. We did not have this 20 years ago. That is an immigration issue.
:56:08. > :56:14.We have problems with approaching issues of sex and sexuality in the
:56:14. > :56:18.West. Were did not have this problem in the '80s.
:56:18. > :56:26.trafficking has always been around. Who is a tougher opponent, Charlie
:56:26. > :56:32.or Tommy Robinson? We opened the floodgates and led to
:56:32. > :56:38.many people in. I have worked directly with operation ramparts.
:56:38. > :56:44.OK, do you see a lot of trafficked Corus? Trafficking is defined by
:56:44. > :56:48.the Home Office as taking a lady to her place of work. -- girls. If you
:56:48. > :56:51.want to work at a massage parlour and you do not fancy the idea of
:56:51. > :56:56.your uncle coming into the parlour where you might work, you might
:56:56. > :57:00.decide to work further away, say Preston. You will contact a parlour
:57:00. > :57:04.in Preston and they will send their brother around to pick you up at
:57:04. > :57:09.the station. He is guilty of trafficking you because he has
:57:09. > :57:15.taken you to the parlour. Are the figures inflated? Of course. There
:57:15. > :57:25.are no women in my area who were trafficked. I bet I could find one.
:57:25. > :57:27.
:57:27. > :57:35.I will show you where to look. I promise you. There are five main
:57:35. > :57:40.groups of people moving them around. The men and the young women that I
:57:40. > :57:46.have dealt with our people who have had major problems. The majority
:57:46. > :57:53.have been on heroin. That is why they are involved in this trade.
:57:53. > :57:57.Not in the street trade, not in my area. What is needed in my area,
:57:57. > :58:02.and has worked, his early intervention. What has not helped
:58:02. > :58:09.is the fact that the trade is legal. We have helped it easier to get
:58:09. > :58:15.people at 16 and 17, and younger, and get the interventions in. The
:58:15. > :58:19.19 and 20 Urals, the same space should be there. -- 20 year-olds.
:58:19. > :58:24.Thank you for braving the gauntlet this morning. Thank you for being a