:00:29. > :00:33.Good morning. Welcome to the The Big Questions from Brighton. This
:00:33. > :00:37.week Brighton plays host to the Council of Europe. 500 delegates
:00:37. > :00:43.from 47 countries will be here to discuss European human rights and
:00:43. > :00:46.the way the courts apply the laws. The MP Dominic Raab says the
:00:46. > :00:53.European Court of Human Rights simply makes up laws out of thin
:00:53. > :00:57.air and it is time to rein it back. Has Europe created too many rights.
:00:57. > :01:07.When anti-abortionists filmed a rape victim entering an abortion
:01:07. > :01:08.
:01:08. > :01:13.clinic they unleashed a storm of protests.
:01:13. > :01:18.Our next big question should abortion be a private matter.
:01:18. > :01:27.Last, is God a woman? The historian Bettany Hughes is here to argue God
:01:27. > :01:32.used to be a girl. Welcome to the The Big Questions
:01:32. > :01:37.Good morning. By this time next week the Brighton declaration may
:01:37. > :01:39.have immortalised this city where the decision was made to curb the
:01:39. > :01:44.power of the European Court of Human Rights. British politicians
:01:44. > :01:48.complain it's given too many rights to prisoners and non-European
:01:48. > :01:54.criminals. Some eastern European nations this it has pandered to the
:01:54. > :02:00.gay and lesbian community. Elderly couples thank them for the right to
:02:00. > :02:03.stay together when one of them needs to go to a home. Lord Carey
:02:03. > :02:12.wants it to safeguard the right of Christians to display their faith.
:02:12. > :02:18.Has Europe created too many rights. Paul Houston, your daughter Amy,
:02:18. > :02:24.you lead a campaign, 12-years-old run over by this man, an Iraqi
:02:24. > :02:29.asylum seeker. He then ran away from the scene. He was caught,
:02:29. > :02:37.sentenced to eight months in prison, served only two. He lost his
:02:37. > :02:41.application to stay here, but he wasn't deported. He is still here.
:02:41. > :02:46.Why do you blame in this terrible case, why do you blame the European
:02:46. > :02:50.Court of Human Rights for the fact he is still here? Human rights is
:02:50. > :02:55.about balance and fairness, about protecting the innocent and
:02:55. > :03:01.vulnerable. It is very galling when Amy, my only child, was killed, I
:03:01. > :03:06.don't have a family life any more. He claims his rights have been
:03:06. > :03:11.deprived and he has been deprived of a family life. At no point was
:03:11. > :03:17.my view taken into consideration in the courts. When I asked the human
:03:17. > :03:21.rights barrister for the UKBA what my rights were, he said Mr Houston,
:03:21. > :03:26.you haven't got any. How can I that right in a fair and balanced
:03:26. > :03:29.society? That's what he said? is what he said. My problem with
:03:29. > :03:34.the Human Rights Act is, I believe in human rights, but I believe it
:03:34. > :03:37.is about balance and fairness and I believe that my rights should have
:03:37. > :03:45.been taken into consideration and they haven't been.
:03:45. > :03:49.APPLAUSE This was article 8, the right to a
:03:49. > :03:55.family life, you believe he had no family life before that, he used it
:03:55. > :04:01.as an argument point. It is a definition of what is a family life.
:04:02. > :04:05.The scope is that wide, but it covers anything. In some cases the
:04:06. > :04:10.people aren't married, sometimes they don't have any children,
:04:10. > :04:17.sometimes they don't even see their children. In some cases it is
:04:17. > :04:25.because they have a mother and father. Frankly everybody has a
:04:25. > :04:29.family life. But the thing is, it can't be right. This sounds crazy.
:04:29. > :04:34.It is a very, very troubling situation, it is an awful situation
:04:34. > :04:39.you have described. It is to do in the way with which that
:04:39. > :04:45.interpretation has happened and liberty has done work on that, but
:04:45. > :04:50.it doesn't undermine the ultimate question question that the Human
:04:50. > :04:54.Rights Act exists as a way of encoding the most important rights
:04:54. > :04:58.that we have, your right to a family life as well as the rights
:04:58. > :05:02.of others. What worries me, the discussion about scrapping it makes
:05:02. > :05:05.it sound like it is just an issue of fashion, when you have the Home
:05:05. > :05:09.Secretary talking about immigrants not being allowed to be deported
:05:09. > :05:13.because they have a cat, ridiculous stories. What I hope we get out of
:05:13. > :05:17.this debate is a mature discussion about where one person's right
:05:17. > :05:22.impinges on another person's responsibility. The media has a
:05:22. > :05:28.role to play in this to report these things correctly. Nobody
:05:29. > :05:34.wants to see scrping article 8. We want to see it reformed and getting
:05:34. > :05:39.an agreed opinion across Europe, because... The proper application.
:05:39. > :05:44.A proper application of it. It does say in article 8 it can be
:05:44. > :05:49.overruled for other people's human rights. If the judge had all the
:05:49. > :05:54.facts in front of him, I think he would possibly have come to a
:05:54. > :05:58.different conclusion. The first thing to say is we have so much
:05:58. > :06:02.respect for Liberty in the way you have entered this debate, we can't
:06:02. > :06:08.imagine the horror you have been through. In your case, the Human
:06:08. > :06:14.Rights Act isn't to blame, though I have been badly failed by the
:06:14. > :06:19.system. We don't understand why the Home Office only sought the
:06:19. > :06:22.deportation for the man responsible five years after. It was in that
:06:23. > :06:26.period he established his family ties here, had two children and
:06:26. > :06:31.adopted two more. It was those children's rights the judge was
:06:31. > :06:36.concerned about, but the Home Office could have deported him
:06:36. > :06:42.sooner. They probably lie would have succeeded. The The other thing
:06:42. > :06:45.that doesn't make sense was that he was only prosecuted for a miner
:06:46. > :06:52.offence. He could have been prosecuted for something more
:06:52. > :06:58.serious. The truth is this article 8 issue is not a one-off in Paul's
:06:58. > :07:02.case. The Home Office has done the data on this. 400 cases a year of
:07:02. > :07:07.foreign criminals successfully challenging the deportation orders
:07:08. > :07:10.on the rights of family life and other social ties. This is 61% of
:07:10. > :07:15.successful challenges to deportation orders by foreign
:07:15. > :07:22.criminals. I think we need to look at the European dimension and the
:07:22. > :07:26.domestic dimension. No-one disagrees with the fund abilityal -
:07:26. > :07:34.- but it is a serious problem. haven't been expanded. Before the
:07:34. > :07:39.Human Rights Act came into force it was possible for a foreign criminal
:07:39. > :07:43.to claim... We have the statistics. The last Conservative government
:07:43. > :07:47.incorporated article 8 principles into domestic law. Do you agree by
:07:47. > :07:51.definition as a democracy we can set those stand sards and if we
:07:51. > :07:55.think the balance has swung too far, scale them back a bit. The point
:07:55. > :08:04.about the convention of the Human Rights Act parliament has the final
:08:04. > :08:07.say. You have no problem with that? The problem is is is when plugss -
:08:08. > :08:13.politicians, including the Prime Minister talk about Human Rights
:08:13. > :08:17.Act judge and European Court right act judgements, it is up to
:08:17. > :08:21.parliament to decide. I couldn't agree more with you.
:08:21. > :08:24.Parliamentarians and MPs across the board knead to stand up and be
:08:24. > :08:29.responsible for the law to be passed, that Hughes the Human
:08:29. > :08:33.Rights Act. But there is cross- party consensus for, the Bill of
:08:33. > :08:43.Rights commission supports the idea that stras bores should intervene
:08:43. > :08:59.
:08:59. > :09:05.less in UK law. The Bill of Rights... Cat Qatada, why can't
:09:05. > :09:10.can't he be sent back to his own country? What he said is wrong but
:09:10. > :09:14.having said that, that is where human rights have to come into
:09:14. > :09:17.force. On the most difficult cases. If one is against torture, one has
:09:17. > :09:25.to be against torture of everybody, not just the people we would like
:09:25. > :09:30.to think are nicer people. We also make the mistake of thinking the
:09:30. > :09:37.European rights was an improvement on pre-existing British common law
:09:37. > :09:45.and it wasn't. Under pre-existing common law the injunction against
:09:45. > :09:49.torture was being replaced by inhuman and degrading. What pre-
:09:49. > :09:55.existed the European Convention on Human Rights was a diminishment of
:09:55. > :10:00.rights when we didn't allow private trial. We allowed any suspect of
:10:00. > :10:04.the king to go in and seek private trials. Private trials are now
:10:04. > :10:07.permitted. What we have got is something that in many ways isn't
:10:07. > :10:11.as good as we had before. I think the idea that should be reformed
:10:11. > :10:16.along the British Bill of Rights is a thoroughly good idea because what
:10:16. > :10:20.it will give us it is a check against what are topped down
:10:20. > :10:30.imposition of foreign rights culture, r... Foreign rights
:10:30. > :10:30.
:10:30. > :10:35.culture? The notion - human rights, they vary according to your
:10:35. > :10:39.tradition and context. The Human Rights Act actually brought
:10:39. > :10:42.sovereignty back to this country and allowed our judges to
:10:42. > :10:46.adjudicate on human rights claims in the British courts. Before we
:10:46. > :10:51.had the Human Rights Act your first fort of call would be Strasbourg
:10:51. > :10:57.and we didn't have British judges interpreting rights in the way they
:10:57. > :11:06.are now able to. The problem is as every man and his cat is basically
:11:06. > :11:10.claiming human rights now and the cost to the general public, the
:11:11. > :11:17.Legal Aid system system is being abused because everybody wants to
:11:17. > :11:21.claim rights. A man says it is his child's right to have a pony tail
:11:21. > :11:26.at school. It was set up to protect citizens of Europe being persecuted
:11:27. > :11:32.from the state. We have to get back to the core purpose of what human
:11:32. > :11:38.rights is. Not because a paedophile thinks has a hard life because he
:11:38. > :11:45.wants to slop out his cell. prisoner wasn't there, who was
:11:45. > :11:52.allowed to become a father through artificial insemination. It was
:11:52. > :11:56.Never meant to be about that? is a good thing. We don't want the
:11:56. > :12:00.European convention on European rights frozen in 1950. You have
:12:00. > :12:06.entire gay minority of Europe extremely grateful that the court
:12:06. > :12:09.has done exactly what Mr Rab opposes which is which is raise
:12:09. > :12:13.European human rights standards in line with social and legal change.
:12:13. > :12:17.Is this what you mean by other countries that don't have our
:12:17. > :12:22.regressive standards. What we've got, with the interpretation of
:12:22. > :12:30.European human rights is we've got minority claim rights against
:12:30. > :12:36.majorities and... Such as? Anything on -- the point I am making is we
:12:36. > :12:43.don't protect Christians wearing the cross, we don't protect...
:12:43. > :12:48.There is a case pending. We don't protect large groups. We allow to
:12:48. > :12:52.give minorities vetoes over majorities. That creates something
:12:52. > :12:55.very problematic in those countries because we live in a society where
:12:55. > :13:00.we have both laws and we have to create tolerance for those who
:13:00. > :13:04.don't live within those laws. Should Should we be a beacon of
:13:04. > :13:10.these rights? I don't think the European convention is a beacon for
:13:10. > :13:16.those rights because they produce - they destroy the notion that rights
:13:16. > :13:22.come with responsibilities. What the European Court does is sets
:13:22. > :13:27.society up against itself S they create new false citizenry that
:13:27. > :13:31.claim not to have any relationship with other forms of citizenry. It
:13:31. > :13:35.creates a society where we don't try and solve problems together but
:13:35. > :13:39.we have one way entitlement rights where we don't have to do anything
:13:39. > :13:45.for them. That is dangerous for minorities and majorities. A bit of
:13:45. > :13:49.a problem that many many Christians who agree with Lord Carey n this
:13:49. > :13:55.country it is the British - Lord Carey is going to Europe with this?
:13:55. > :13:59.The only thing that can protect religious freedom in this country
:13:59. > :14:03.is article 9 of the Human Rights Act and that is the piece of
:14:03. > :14:08.lengthlation being used to fight the Christians to be able to wear
:14:08. > :14:11.the cross. To say it is against the majority is nonsense. It protects
:14:12. > :14:14.every person, man, woman and child in this country. We can disagree on
:14:15. > :14:20.what the balance should be here. I respect the arguments on the other
:14:20. > :14:25.side, but the formlation of human rights, their explanation, their
:14:25. > :14:31.development, you have to have accountable law makers responsible
:14:31. > :14:34.for it. It undermines public trust. Human rights in this country are
:14:34. > :14:41.becoming dirty words. That is because the politicians are setting
:14:41. > :14:47.a bad example. When the holder of a great office of state, the Home
:14:47. > :14:55.Secretary uses false information. Sthe didn't actually. There was a
:14:55. > :15:00.cat involved? There was a cat. Juror it was nonsense. That is not
:15:00. > :15:06.the only thing. Was the cat involved, we deal with the big
:15:06. > :15:12.questions. The cat was regarded as a material factor which allowed him
:15:12. > :15:18.to claim his article 8 right. of the things you do to prove you
:15:19. > :15:22.are in a relationship, you have a kalt, joint bills. I got annoyed
:15:22. > :15:27.with that because it was a very bad example. If you wanted to use an
:15:27. > :15:35.example of a bad case of human rights, why don't you use the death
:15:35. > :15:41.of a 12-year-old child. The thing is, the Home Secretary, from Labour,
:15:41. > :15:44.I have Teresa May, I have had Damian Green, jack Jack Straw, I
:15:44. > :15:54.have had David Cameron agree with my opinion and said this man should
:15:54. > :15:54.
:15:54. > :15:58.have been deported and he hasn't been. Ultimately he can't use the
:15:58. > :16:05.defence of the Human Rights Act. He was aware of his immigration status
:16:06. > :16:10.before he had the children. There is a second paragraph. He applied
:16:10. > :16:16.for asylum, that was rejected. He had an appeal, that was rejected.
:16:16. > :16:20.He had a judicial review, that was rejected. He was served his
:16:20. > :16:27.deportation papers, he should have gone. He evaded them because he
:16:27. > :16:31.should have gone. He hasn't come from Iraq and successfully noshled
:16:32. > :16:39.our Human Rights Act, so why don't you have child, make it better, why
:16:39. > :16:46.not have two children. Which is why the Home Office sk act fast.
:16:46. > :16:56.can't can't he be sent back now. Because of his children. Why break
:16:56. > :16:57.
:16:57. > :17:01.up another family. This man killed a 12-year-old. You can't punish Mr
:17:01. > :17:05.Abraham's children. Let's look at Mr Abraham. Driving whilst
:17:05. > :17:09.disqualified four times. Leaves a child trapped under the wheels of a
:17:09. > :17:16.car, still alive, sles screaming, she is frightened and he runs to
:17:16. > :17:21.save his own skin. He has been done for possession of drugs, damage to
:17:21. > :17:27.property, intimidation. He even got arrested in front of his children,
:17:27. > :17:32.taken away in handcuffs for a disturbance of the peace. Is this a
:17:32. > :17:37.perfect family man. The system has failed. He has a right to family
:17:37. > :17:43.live? The courts are now allowing him to stay in the UK because they
:17:44. > :17:47.have sympathy for Mr Abraham, it is because they do not want to punish
:17:47. > :17:54.his British children and his British wife. But separating a
:17:54. > :17:58.family or forcing them to move to Iraq. I have a case in my
:17:58. > :18:03.constituency, a young waiter, body dumped in a river couldn't be
:18:03. > :18:11.deported even though he has no wife, we have 400 cases like this a year.
:18:11. > :18:21.There is a case like that on Tuesday, against a Nigerian man.
:18:21. > :18:21.
:18:21. > :18:26.The European Court of Human Rights said he could be deported.
:18:26. > :18:30.chooses to live three miles down the road from me. We are making
:18:30. > :18:35.human rights a dirty word because we are letting the decisions
:18:35. > :18:39.ultimately be made in a place far away from this country that most
:18:39. > :18:45.British people feel feel isn't part of our culture. There is a very
:18:45. > :18:49.interesting point made, you are saying we are making human rights a
:18:49. > :18:55.dirty word, the head of the European Court of Human Rights, he
:18:55. > :18:59.has dismissed criticism and said that it's the kind of ignorance
:18:59. > :19:05.displayed in the popular press. He's blaming the way it is all
:19:05. > :19:08.reported. Does he have a point? That is contemple for -- contempt
:19:08. > :19:12.for ordinary people. Until we can bring rights home and have a
:19:12. > :19:18.British based rights where we have politicians who not just claim to
:19:18. > :19:22.be able to act but act consistently in all cause cases, rights will
:19:22. > :19:27.divide us and they are already dividing us, because people feel
:19:27. > :19:36.that people are gaming the system. That removes popular political
:19:36. > :19:41.support for rights, which isn't right. The irony is that if we get
:19:41. > :19:49.rid of the Human Rights Act, it gives the Strasbourg court more
:19:49. > :19:52.power in this country not less. is that? Unless he proposes we
:19:52. > :19:57.leave the European Convention on Human Rights altogether, which
:19:57. > :20:00.would send out a terrible message, if we are saying one out of 48
:20:00. > :20:06.countries Britain is going to leave the European convention, if we
:20:06. > :20:12.don't leave it, it means people will have the course for the
:20:12. > :20:17.Strasbourg course and it will give more power to Strasbourg, not less.
:20:17. > :20:22.The whole thing about human rights, that means if I commit a crime,
:20:22. > :20:26.which is what happened, and I go and kill somebody, I might start
:20:27. > :20:30.arguing, why should I go to prison, my wife is going to find it
:20:30. > :20:35.difficult and that is what is going to happen. You have rules and
:20:35. > :20:45.regulations to protect the majority of people. If people abuse that,
:20:45. > :20:48.
:20:48. > :20:53.they have -- this is a matter of justice for me. The irony is that
:20:53. > :21:02.the Human Rights Act leisure Make the case. The prison standards is
:21:02. > :21:09.temporary, of course family life is disrupted. Deportation is permanent.
:21:09. > :21:16.Make a case for the positives, DNA database. There are a whole set of
:21:16. > :21:20.cases, that don't don't make the headlines. The media have a vested
:21:20. > :21:24.interest in opposing the Human Rights Act. It gives people a right
:21:24. > :21:33.to private lives and that interference with the kiss and tell
:21:33. > :21:38.stories the tabloids like to do. There has not been an article like
:21:38. > :21:45.this. What you are saying is you come to this country, break any
:21:45. > :21:55.laws you want, as long as you have a child... I am not talking about
:21:55. > :21:55.
:21:55. > :22:00.immigration, we have a right to privacy. Good morning. I didn't
:22:00. > :22:05.think you wanted to come over this way. One of the things that
:22:05. > :22:13.happened, illegal immigrant from Dorset, cautioned and all this,
:22:13. > :22:18.motor vehicle offences. He came to Hove, he knocked a father with
:22:18. > :22:26.three children, killed a man, he only got nine months, is that a
:22:26. > :22:32.joke? That is the British court system. So when people see me, I
:22:32. > :22:37.travel by buses and I will tell you, some white people when they see me,
:22:37. > :22:43.they like to help me disappear or something, they are being rude. I
:22:43. > :22:48.don't blame them. It is this rotten laws that does all these problems.
:22:48. > :22:51.Is it creating that resentment. are in a situation where for the
:22:51. > :22:55.most part we have rights without relationships, without
:22:55. > :23:02.responsibilities and it puts people against one another. We need to
:23:02. > :23:06.restore rights to the community so people understand reciprocal and
:23:06. > :23:12.people understand their rights. I agree with the comment you have
:23:12. > :23:17.made sir, it puts people against one another. It gives majorities
:23:17. > :23:25.the idea that minorities are playing them. And are taking
:23:25. > :23:35.advantage of them. That is disastrous for our country. Thank
:23:35. > :23:39.you very much Thank you very much. You can continue the discussion
:23:39. > :23:45.online. We are debating live this morning from Brighton, should
:23:45. > :23:54.abortion be a private matter and is God a woman. Tell us what you think
:23:54. > :23:58.about those ones and send us your ideas for future debates.
:23:58. > :24:02.The pro-choice movement is staging a march this morning, just along
:24:02. > :24:06.the coast from here. They are protesting against the anti-
:24:06. > :24:09.abortion group lobbying and filming women as they enter abortion
:24:09. > :24:15.clinics in Brighton and other major cities across the country. Should
:24:15. > :24:23.abortion be a private matter? Good morning to Andy Stephenson.
:24:23. > :24:28.You are from Abort 67. We have a right to protest in this country,
:24:28. > :24:33.enshrined in the aforementioned European Court of Human Rights.
:24:33. > :24:38.What you stand accused of doing is going slightly beyond that and
:24:38. > :24:42.intimidating women on the way into the clinic who are in a vulnerable
:24:42. > :24:45.situation anyway. How do you respond to that criticism? Well, it
:24:45. > :24:52.would be useful to set the record straight. We don't film people
:24:52. > :24:56.going into abortion clinics. We don't shout at people. Contrary to
:24:56. > :25:02.the allegations in the media. don't, others have. What do you do?
:25:02. > :25:09.What we do is want to educate people as to who the unborn child
:25:09. > :25:16.is and what abortion does to him or her. We agree that actually
:25:16. > :25:22.abortion should be a private matter, women should have no access -
:25:22. > :25:26.should have access to it without any kind of leading for doctors'
:25:26. > :25:32.signatures, there should be unrestricted access to abortion if,
:25:32. > :25:38.if the unborn child isn't really an unborn child. If the unborn child
:25:38. > :25:43.isn't a human being, why should there be any kind of restriction.
:25:43. > :25:50.From the point of conception. Believe it is murder? We believe it
:25:50. > :25:56.is killing a a small human being who is defenceless by people...
:25:56. > :26:03.are relaying that flftion to women on the way to the clinic. There has
:26:03. > :26:09.been a big furore locally, who was a rape victim and said the
:26:09. > :26:15.experience of being lobbied given this information made her feel
:26:15. > :26:19.intimidated and panicky and judged. You don't know the individual
:26:19. > :26:24.circumstances, do you. She had She had been raped. No, we don't know
:26:24. > :26:30.the individual circumstances of all these women going into the clinic
:26:30. > :26:33.or the people going past the clinic. We are try to go reach the broadest
:26:33. > :26:43.society with what is happening behind this in the clinic, but...
:26:43. > :26:53.People... This is the place to do it or through a newspaper article.
:26:53. > :26:55.
:26:55. > :26:59.Not a vulnerable woman's ear. agree they are vulnerable, but they
:26:59. > :27:03.are - we stand there with pictures and this is what's happening here,
:27:03. > :27:08.in the abortion industry, it is in a panic because they have survived
:27:08. > :27:12.for 40 odd years because what they are doing has been hidden behind
:27:12. > :27:16.closed doors, all we are doing is showing what they do. If the
:27:16. > :27:19.abortionists were having to perform the abortions where we stand on the
:27:19. > :27:23.pavement, abortion would be illegal next week. All we are doing is
:27:23. > :27:29.showing people who abortion is. We don't call people murderers or
:27:29. > :27:32.anything like that. It is a matter of time and place. If you want to
:27:32. > :27:37.lobby parliament against abortion that is up to you, but if somebody
:27:37. > :27:43.is going to an abortion clinic, they are going because they have
:27:43. > :27:47.made a decision, and your pictures are in their faces. They don't have
:27:47. > :27:51.a choice about whether they see those pictures. They might want to
:27:51. > :27:58.choose and look at more information but I believe in the abortion
:27:58. > :28:02.clinic, they will be given the relevant information they need and
:28:02. > :28:08.I don't think depsh I think we should trust the women. If you
:28:08. > :28:14.don't want to have an abortion, that's fine, I am not pro-abortion,
:28:14. > :28:19.I am pro-choice. It is legal and these are legal medical medical you
:28:19. > :28:27.are obstructing women from accessing these services. You have
:28:27. > :28:30.seen similar operations in America. Yes, in Kansas I do chaperoning at
:28:30. > :28:34.the clinic that has abortion procedures carried out. Because
:28:34. > :28:38.there are protesters lining the side of the clinic and shouting at
:28:38. > :28:48.the women as they came in, some abusive, some things emotionally
:28:48. > :28:50.
:28:50. > :28:55.blackmailing. Like what? Jesus loves the little life inside you.
:28:55. > :29:00.It is a very traumatising experience for her. We are back to
:29:00. > :29:05.rights. It's a genuinely difficult subject, let's make no bones about
:29:05. > :29:09.that, but there are cases in America also where often women go
:29:09. > :29:13.into abortion because they feel they have no choice, because they
:29:13. > :29:16.feel that actually they have never really been presented with any
:29:16. > :29:21.other options. There is an abortion industry that structures the
:29:21. > :29:25.outcome in a certain way. There are examples in America of people - I
:29:25. > :29:30.don't agree with violent protesting or anything that is intimidating,
:29:30. > :29:34.but some women are persuaded by protesters to carry the child and
:29:34. > :29:42.then go and join the picket. The point is that people are persuaded.
:29:43. > :29:46.I think in a free and democratic society... Some people are
:29:46. > :29:51.persuaded and some people are grateful to the protesters that
:29:51. > :29:56.actually that another option was presented to them. This is a
:29:57. > :30:01.fundamental part of our rights, Andy and Caroline and others over
:30:01. > :30:04.there, they sincerely believe this, you may not agree with them, they
:30:04. > :30:10.believe it is murder. Have they got the right to transmitt that message
:30:10. > :30:14.to people. They do have that right, but I think what we are seeing with
:30:14. > :30:17.some of these groups that they are going well beyond just people
:30:17. > :30:23.protesting, holding up photographs. That is not what I have been
:30:23. > :30:27.hearing from the staff inside these clinics. If we are are interfering
:30:27. > :30:33.with individuals at a vulnerable point in their life, I am against
:30:33. > :30:36.whoever is doing that. It is also suggested that organisations like
:30:36. > :30:42.the British pregnancy advisory people are not giving objective
:30:42. > :30:47.advice. They are, we have talked to them. There are two things here.
:30:47. > :30:53.This is why we film ourselves outside the abortion clinic because
:30:53. > :30:58.we knew right from the outset of the allegations about our behaviour.
:30:58. > :31:05.The clinic accused elderly people of urinating on the cars in the car
:31:05. > :31:15.park, we knew we had to document our displays. We invite the police
:31:15. > :31:19.
:31:19. > :31:24.to attend the displays we do. I agree with I do have a divergence
:31:24. > :31:30.of opinion here because I think we need to educate the public as to
:31:30. > :31:36.with the fact it is an unborn child, but I would say, these images are
:31:36. > :31:43.very, very advice ral -- advice roll, they inspire a very strong
:31:43. > :31:47.response. When I am walking through Brighton, I see the horrendous
:31:47. > :31:54.photos of children maimed in wars and actually when we see something
:31:54. > :31:59.that really angers us or upsets us, we get very upset and angry. We
:31:59. > :32:03.need to have intellectual honesty and say why are we angry about this.
:32:03. > :32:13.When we see something really gruesome and upsetting we want to
:32:13. > :32:14.
:32:14. > :32:22.turn away. It is It is counter productive then? I think a better
:32:22. > :32:29.tactic would be, there's been so many advances in diagnostic imaging,
:32:29. > :32:33.many pregnant women have these 4 D scans and I think although graphic
:32:33. > :32:40.images do have their place, I think they are better off if they are in
:32:40. > :32:50.an open and engaged and constructive dialogue with a
:32:50. > :32:53.
:32:53. > :32:59.consense ul adult, as opposed to - I am very pro-life. Andy, - Angela,
:32:59. > :33:02.do you believe these people don't realise it is a baby inside them.
:33:02. > :33:07.do believe some people don't realise what they are doing. We
:33:07. > :33:12.don't have so much open discussion. We need to have a constructive -
:33:12. > :33:18.you were talking about being mature on the subject, we need to think
:33:18. > :33:22.about this subject, not this is wrong and this is right. The
:33:22. > :33:26.polarisation that goes on. Let's go into the middle here and look at
:33:26. > :33:31.the human side of it. What are these women going through. Are they
:33:31. > :33:37.being given the proper choice or do they feel there was no choice,
:33:37. > :33:45.because there are many women who I counsel and have phoned me and been
:33:45. > :33:50.on the phone to me for hours, who were coerced into abortion. These
:33:50. > :33:54.include solicitors, very well- educated people. I had two
:33:54. > :34:02.abortions, the second one was a persuasion. You believe there is
:34:02. > :34:07.not the proper information. proper choice. The proper choice.
:34:07. > :34:10.The people protesting outside some of the clinic, I am completely
:34:10. > :34:14.convinced they are giving a broad range of information. If there are
:34:14. > :34:18.clinics where that is not happening, but but when you talk about saying
:34:18. > :34:25.there shouldn't be polarisation, it is exactly polarisation happening,
:34:25. > :34:31.when people are outside the clinics, not just standing with photographs,
:34:31. > :34:39.but thrusting leaflets into people's hands, making staff hard
:34:39. > :34:44.to deal with them after that. Two months ago an article was
:34:44. > :34:49.published in the journal of medical ethics, after birth abortion, there
:34:49. > :34:54.was a big outcry at the time because the people who wrote the
:34:54. > :35:01.article said there is no moral difference between a newborn and a
:35:01. > :35:05.foetus, there is no reason why a newborn should not be killed if it
:35:05. > :35:10.is burdensome. Slightly different issue. They make a telling issue on
:35:10. > :35:14.page two of the article, that both foetus and a newborn certainly are
:35:14. > :35:18.human beings. The point about that is as soon as something is a human
:35:19. > :35:24.being below the age of majority, it comes within the terms of article 1
:35:24. > :35:31.of the declaration of the rights of the child, article 6 impose on
:35:31. > :35:38.states an obligation to do everything possible to protect that
:35:38. > :35:44.human individual. There is no universally agreed decision point
:35:44. > :35:49.on when a human life becomes a human life. Everyone has different
:35:49. > :35:59.opinions about that If you believe human life begins at conception but
:35:59. > :36:00.
:36:00. > :36:05.don't tell me what I am allowed to do with my womb. This is a legal
:36:06. > :36:10.matter now. It is not a controversial issue that human life
:36:10. > :36:13.begins at conception. If abortion rights want to get rid of us, we
:36:13. > :36:17.will leave tomorrow and shut our website down if they can prove to
:36:17. > :36:20.us with science that the unborn child who was killed in abortion
:36:20. > :36:26.isn't a human being, we will stop doing what we are we are doing
:36:26. > :36:31.instantly. We are talking about the potential for human life. How far
:36:31. > :36:37.are you going to go, I know you want to ban the morning-after pill
:36:37. > :36:43.as well. Are you going to start saying you can't have... Let's get
:36:43. > :36:47.back to the debate, is it a private matter. The debates we have on this
:36:47. > :36:56.programme regularly about the end of life and also the beginning of
:36:56. > :37:00.life are huning ethical issues and they are necessarily matters of
:37:00. > :37:05.public discourse. So this clearly is a matter of public discourse.
:37:05. > :37:14.Why can there not be a matter of them being able to express what
:37:14. > :37:17.they believe. I have no problem with peaceful protest. I have been
:37:17. > :37:22.outside the clinic and I have heard of people who are not given
:37:22. > :37:25.information but being harassed. That is untrue. It may not be your
:37:26. > :37:31.group, but it is not untrue to say that is happening, I have heard of
:37:31. > :37:39.it happening. We want to avoid the American situation, where you do
:37:39. > :37:43.get insanity on both sides. I think we need to stop abortion being a
:37:43. > :37:48.taboo subject, which it is. With the advances in medical procedures,
:37:48. > :37:53.we now have a situation in which abortion is permitted beyond the
:37:53. > :37:57.point at which children are born and can survive, it is back on the
:37:57. > :38:05.agenda. We need to have a non- poisoned atmosphere to discuss what
:38:05. > :38:15.is clearly an issue. We know we don't permit abortion up to the
:38:15. > :38:16.
:38:16. > :38:23.point of birth, so we accept after 24 weeks there are... It is a plea
:38:23. > :38:28.for removing the taboo and having a civilised conversation. If you are
:38:28. > :38:32.so right about everything, how come all your leaflets result in medical
:38:32. > :38:41.misinformation and abuse in them, rather than setting out how things
:38:41. > :38:45.are. You say abortions will send you mad and give you cancer.
:38:45. > :38:51.displays outside the clinnish attract various people from other
:38:51. > :38:55.groups. All we do is show people people what abortion does to ab
:38:55. > :39:00.unborn child. If that makes people so angry, you have to ask yourself,
:39:00. > :39:05.if abortion is such a good idea why do pictures of it make people so
:39:05. > :39:13.angry. Why do you have to say it will give you cancer and threaten
:39:13. > :39:21.women, it is intimidating women. want to bring to your attention,
:39:21. > :39:26.first and foremost, women are very, very important people. That is why
:39:26. > :39:31.we do this, we care for them as well. In society, we try to mix oil
:39:31. > :39:35.with water, it never mixes. Women are very, very important people and
:39:35. > :39:41.I can tell you from the Bible, right in the very beginning, God
:39:41. > :39:45.said let us make man in our image, he made eve and all the things you
:39:46. > :39:53.see in the Lord Jesus Christ is right there in the book of Genesis.
:39:53. > :39:58.Women are supposed to populate the country. Jesus is excited about
:39:58. > :40:06.women giving birth and bringing up children. If I may remind you when
:40:06. > :40:14.the disciples bid the mothers go away, Jesus sweetly said, suffer
:40:14. > :40:17.little children to come unto me because that is the kingdom of God.
:40:17. > :40:23.Women do not run around saying I can't wait to have an abortion.
:40:23. > :40:33.Women are having abortions because they need to have an abortion.
:40:33. > :40:34.
:40:34. > :40:39.Nobody wants to have an abortion. I don't buy it when Andy says that
:40:39. > :40:43.they care for women. Because I really don't think that showing
:40:43. > :40:47.these graphic images when a woman is at a vulnerable point in her
:40:47. > :40:52.life and hasn't taken a decision lightly, that is not caring for a
:40:52. > :40:56.woman. We want to care for women, we want to care for their mental
:40:56. > :41:02.well-being and support them in whatever choice they make. And not
:41:02. > :41:07.intimidate them when they are trying to access legal services.
:41:07. > :41:12.Why would the truth be intimidated. Women have made their decision,
:41:12. > :41:17.they have looked at the evidence, they know the facts.
:41:17. > :41:24.information is readily available, if they want to see this
:41:24. > :41:29.information they can do. Abortion is generally hidden away. The
:41:29. > :41:34.abortion clinics are telling women that this is just a pregnancy, it
:41:34. > :41:39.is the removal of a pregnancy, all this benign language they are using
:41:39. > :41:43.and we have got evidence of this, and all we want to do, we are not
:41:43. > :41:47.making any - we know we can't stop women from having abortion. We
:41:47. > :41:50.can't prevent them from making their legal choices but we do
:41:50. > :41:59.believe they need to be properly informed. We have to leave it there.
:41:59. > :42:09.Thank you for another spectacular intervention.
:42:09. > :42:16.
:42:16. > :42:19.If you have views about that debate, Our next question is is God a woman.
:42:19. > :42:24.You can e-mail us if you would like to be in the audience.
:42:24. > :42:30.We are not on next week because of the London Marathon but we are back
:42:30. > :42:38.on April 29th. From West London on May 13th, two shows, then Glasgow
:42:38. > :42:42.on June 3rd. As we have been hearing in the
:42:42. > :42:46.beginning God created the heaven and the earth. But long before
:42:46. > :42:51.those words were set down in Genesis, humans believed the world
:42:51. > :42:57.had been created by a Goddess. She had many names. The ancient Greeks
:42:57. > :43:02.called her Gaia, the great mother and the statues of her have been
:43:02. > :43:07.found in the earliest settlements dating back 9,000 years. Is God a
:43:07. > :43:11.woman. You have this interesting TV series
:43:11. > :43:19.at the moment Divine Women. Something changed didn't it, along
:43:19. > :43:22.the road to today. What changed, when did God become mass clinised?
:43:22. > :43:28.Why is the million dollar question but there is a big shift in history.
:43:28. > :43:38.If you look back 40,000 years, back to the very beginning of human
:43:38. > :43:42.civilisation, human society, what is fascinating is for the bulk of
:43:42. > :43:48.human experience, definitely people conceived of the God figure as
:43:48. > :43:55.being female. We know this because if you look at all the human
:43:55. > :43:58.figurines created between 1,000 BC and 40,000 BC, 92% of those are of
:43:58. > :44:02.women. This was clearly how people viewed the world. But something
:44:02. > :44:06.does shift. There is a massive change. It is in the Bronze Age.
:44:06. > :44:10.What happens really is that civilisation gets greedy, so
:44:10. > :44:13.populations have stabilised, we are living in beautiful citadels and
:44:14. > :44:19.look over the horizon and think I have a great life but I want more
:44:19. > :44:25.of what they have, we get warrior societies and the creation of an
:44:25. > :44:31.all smitting warrior God. Maybe we should return to our mother who art
:44:31. > :44:37.in heaven? I go to church. But I read the Bible and I see a lot of
:44:37. > :44:41.the female concept of divine wisdom in the old and New Testament. We
:44:41. > :44:49.haven't lost it but we chews to ignore it or brush it under the car
:44:49. > :44:55.bet. Rabbi Pesach Efune, you believe the language that we use
:44:55. > :45:00.about God in the mass clin is so we can understand and relate to him.
:45:00. > :45:05.Explain what you mean. I would like to say I think God is a woman but
:45:05. > :45:11.he is also a man at the same time. Quite frankly, any person who asks
:45:12. > :45:15.that question in my opinion shows a great degree of theological
:45:15. > :45:21.immaturity and lack of understanding of God. The concept
:45:21. > :45:27.of God as a male totally in terms of the language which is used in
:45:28. > :45:31.the Bible has to do because of two main reasons, first Hebrew, the
:45:31. > :45:34.original language of the Bible speaks in genders. In view of the
:45:35. > :45:40.fact we have to refer to God in something because ultimately we can
:45:40. > :45:45.only speak about God in terms of our experience, there is a verse in
:45:45. > :45:49.Joab which speaks about from my flesh I see God, meaning the way we
:45:49. > :45:54.understand our thinking process and emotions, we can speak and think
:45:54. > :46:01.about God, so we speak about God being angry and loving and so on.
:46:01. > :46:06.But the main theme about why God actually is always seen in bubble
:46:06. > :46:09.kal - biblical literature as a male, has to do with the most basic act a
:46:09. > :46:16.human being can do which is which is similar to God and that is the
:46:16. > :46:22.act of creativity. In the act of intimacy, the male is the giver and
:46:22. > :46:25.the female is the receiver, so when we view God and view our
:46:25. > :46:30.remingsship, - relationship with God, it is the human being being
:46:30. > :46:34.receiving from God, we have to turn that into something productive and
:46:34. > :46:41.we make ourselves and the world a better place. Women give birth.
:46:41. > :46:46.to continue that argument, it is us human beings in the God... God is
:46:46. > :46:54.the giver. We as human beings, every time we Blake a blessing on
:46:54. > :47:04.the bread, we know God doesn't give us bread, he gives us wheat. There
:47:04. > :47:08.
:47:08. > :47:18.are sur vifuls. -- survivals. We can't detect what happened, there
:47:18. > :47:26.is no doubt a warrior society created God in a male image. Our
:47:26. > :47:34.own lit ji 2,000 years ago... is the whole debate. S Can you be
:47:34. > :47:41.giving and let her finish. Absolutely. My wife told me before
:47:41. > :47:51.I came here I should be giving. When the Rabbi, you were smiling at
:47:51. > :47:52.
:47:52. > :47:58.the Rabbi's point there. I just feel this is a very dangerous
:47:58. > :48:03.ground we are on in the sense it seems to be legitimising the reason
:48:03. > :48:10.why men have the biggest part in ourly linlingons, there are debates
:48:10. > :48:20.over women bishops. It seems to lead to the conclusion that women
:48:20. > :48:23.are not going to be able to have those roles in the church. There is
:48:23. > :48:30.another Rabbi voice, which is a voice of another form of Judaism
:48:30. > :48:34.and that form of Judaism actually speaks as you do from the same
:48:34. > :48:44.starting point, God is neither male nor female but we have to find ways
:48:44. > :48:49.
:48:49. > :48:58.of speaking to God on the basis of our lives and our experience.
:48:58. > :49:04.morning to you. Why is the constructive God so masculine? Is
:49:04. > :49:12.it OK to say mother? God is clearly not a women or man. One of the
:49:12. > :49:19.things we also need to do is not to bring in... Why is he -- why do we
:49:19. > :49:25.call him man why do we call him father? We have to chews one gender
:49:25. > :49:29.or another? Can we stop calling him father? I am not particularly
:49:29. > :49:34.anxious about it. I think sometimes there are implications about the
:49:34. > :49:40.way we use language. One of the stories that takes place is that it
:49:40. > :49:49.is not actually the replacement of a wrior society, shifting from
:49:49. > :49:55.feminine to masculine. Some people could find it offensive. One of the
:49:55. > :50:05.other ideas is that the revelation from the Bible is about stopping us
:50:05. > :50:09.
:50:09. > :50:15.committing adultery. We are keen on worshipping things that matter. To
:50:15. > :50:21.try and make a distinction between the agency side agency, it becomes
:50:21. > :50:25.masculine. But the prevailing theological idea was feminine. It
:50:25. > :50:33.was simply to introduce a balancing idea, the moment we lose this
:50:33. > :50:37.balance, particularly at the moment, starting a polarised debate. Just
:50:37. > :50:41.to say it is not being offensive or sexist to say there was a
:50:41. > :50:46.development of a warrior society, I am not laying the blame at the door
:50:46. > :50:51.of men. But the archaeology shows us it was the men that went out and
:50:51. > :50:56.fought, we know that because their bones are covered in axe marks,
:50:56. > :50:59.they have sword slashes down their arms. This is what men were doing.
:50:59. > :51:03.When we see that bone evidence in the ground, that is when we get the
:51:03. > :51:08.single smitting warrior God. It seems to me at that moment, we lose
:51:08. > :51:18.something about the glory of God which is God is love, neither man
:51:18. > :51:26.nor woman. What is interesting is the first lines of equality we find
:51:26. > :51:32.in human history in Judaism and Christianity, when Paul says, the
:51:32. > :51:38.way to Christianity is the refeminine zeution away from God
:51:38. > :51:48.washior. The Bible is repeat with feminine images. Women did better
:51:48. > :51:54.
:51:54. > :52:00.under Christianity than almost any other associateological Form. What
:52:00. > :52:05.Catholics - you have a clear fem anymorisation of Mary. And the
:52:05. > :52:12.position of women. Is that a psychological necessity that we
:52:12. > :52:19.have. Christianity is already the feminist connection. The moment has
:52:19. > :52:24.come, sir. Is God possibly a woman. Let me tell you with, I was with TB,
:52:24. > :52:30.I was left to die there, three months in a coma, who came? Jesus
:52:30. > :52:39.Christ, five times he visited me. Let me tell you, God is a male,
:52:39. > :52:43.only on that. When we get to heaven Jesus made it clear, he said what
:52:43. > :52:51.happens to this woman, she has had seven brothers, who is going to be
:52:51. > :53:01.her husband. God said you don't know the scrip tours. He said in
:53:01. > :53:04.
:53:04. > :53:10.heaven, we like angels, sexless. You are loched by God more than men
:53:10. > :53:18.and you should be made to populate this world. Without you we wouldn't
:53:18. > :53:25.be here. In what way is God a man? In the person of Jesus Christ.
:53:25. > :53:32.Every detail, whatever you want, from the beginning to the ending of
:53:32. > :53:38.this world, it is going to burn up with nuclear. That is the fact.
:53:38. > :53:42.Politicians should never mingle with our Christian faith. Because
:53:42. > :53:51.you have got to worship God in spirit and truth to know the truth.
:53:52. > :53:59.You can't be a politician. Dominic, follow that. I am going to tread
:53:59. > :54:09.carefully. My father was Jewish and I married a Catholic. I thought of
:54:09. > :54:14.
:54:14. > :54:19.God as something transindental. I have no divine knowledge, I won.
:54:19. > :54:26.Why is it they refuse to allow women bishops. Why is it that there
:54:26. > :54:31.is the argument to get women priests. If you are saying God is
:54:31. > :54:37.neither male or female, God is neither, why are they making this
:54:37. > :54:44.fuss. The church is going to have women bishops and lots of people
:54:44. > :54:47.are pleased about it. I want to see what happens. I am looking at the
:54:47. > :54:52.church in America, where we are pursuing the policies we are
:54:52. > :54:56.talking about now. What are the dangers? It is not like that.
:54:56. > :55:03.are you worried about? One of the things people are worried about is
:55:03. > :55:09.taking the secular agenda and imposing it on a very nuance
:55:09. > :55:16.Christian dynamic. There is a great deal of nuance to be had within the
:55:16. > :55:24.present system. If we take secular issues with gender and impose them
:55:24. > :55:29.on Christianity. It is not a secular agenda at all. We are
:55:29. > :55:33.willing to share the notion that God neither male or female, why
:55:33. > :55:41.isn't it possible for us to say in that case, then the priests,
:55:41. > :55:48.ministers Rabbis can be male or female. Jesus revealed God, the
:55:48. > :55:53.father. The greatest revelation to come to mankind is that God is a
:55:53. > :55:58.heavenly father which means he loves us, he wants to provide for
:55:58. > :56:05.us. As a Christian, that is the revelation that Jesus Christ
:56:05. > :56:09.brought, that God is our father in heaven. He was very specific.
:56:09. > :56:14.make a really important point here. When we talk about the priesthood
:56:14. > :56:18.and certainly, I am a Catholic, and we talk about the male priesthood,
:56:18. > :56:23.actually that is quite demeaning to everybody else in the church. It is
:56:23. > :56:26.saying only the priesthood is important. In fact if you look at
:56:26. > :56:32.Catholic congregations, the vast majority of them are women. Women
:56:32. > :56:36.play a huge role in the Catholic Church. There is a very famous
:56:37. > :56:42.Catholic thee low general who says women are more spiritual than men
:56:42. > :56:47.because they are freed from the office and burden of priesthood.
:56:47. > :56:51.Give women the opportunity to chews. Not every woman is going to want to
:56:51. > :56:57.be a priest. Let them have the opportunity to chews. Do you think
:56:57. > :57:01.the church would be more successful, your programme is addressing the
:57:01. > :57:05.issue of women priestesses. Do you think the church would be more
:57:05. > :57:08.attractive to the other half of the population? It is fascinating the
:57:08. > :57:13.greatest time of expansion in Christianity was when women were
:57:13. > :57:20.priests and very actively involved in the prom you will gaition of the
:57:20. > :57:28.church. The first 2300 years. That is when Christianity establishes
:57:28. > :57:34.itself. You say women were priests in the first 300 years? Where is
:57:34. > :57:43.your evidence for that You will see it on television! It's all been
:57:43. > :57:48.researched. That is very interesting,. It is not about
:57:48. > :57:52.whether God is a woman. We are speaking about the role of humans,
:57:52. > :57:56.men and women. We have missed the point here. The fact we describe
:57:56. > :58:00.God in certain terms in reality for those who have a deep understanding
:58:00. > :58:04.of faith has nothing to do with the gender of God. It has to do with
:58:04. > :58:08.what we as religious people think God wants from us as human beings,
:58:08. > :58:13.male or female. That is to make ourselves holy, to make ourselves
:58:13. > :58:16.good and have a personal connection with with God. It doesn't matter
:58:17. > :58:26.where I am a priest or not. It has to do with my personal relationship
:58:26. > :58:30.with God, what does God want from me. That is exactly right. What we
:58:30. > :58:34.get caught up in in is talking the language of politician, which is
:58:34. > :58:39.power. We need to be against injustice and stop the oppression
:58:39. > :58:45.of power. But the moment you politicise spirituality you distort