:00:29. > :00:33.Good morning. Great to see you. Welcome to The Big Questions live
:00:33. > :00:37.from the West London Academy. On Wednesday the judge told the nine
:00:37. > :00:41.Asian man convicted in the Rochdale grooming and multiple rape case
:00:41. > :00:45.that they had treated the victims as though they were worthless and
:00:45. > :00:50.beyond any respect and one of the factors leading to that was the
:00:50. > :00:53.fact they were not part of their community or religion. Our first
:00:54. > :00:57.big question, should the Pakistani community put its own house in
:00:57. > :01:00.order? Mohammed Shafique says the elders of the community have
:01:00. > :01:04.ignored the problems for years and refuse to see it as their job to
:01:04. > :01:07.change attitudes. Parliament is currently
:01:07. > :01:10.investigating the investigators. Are private eyes too free to
:01:10. > :01:15.intrude on what should be private matters, like whether a client's
:01:15. > :01:19.husband is having an affair? And is it right to spy on your
:01:19. > :01:24.spouse? Rebecca Jane spied on her former husband herself and then set
:01:24. > :01:27.up a business to investigate other people's straying partners.
:01:27. > :01:31.The General Medical Council has issued draft guidance on how
:01:31. > :01:35.doctors should handle their personal beliefs at work. Should
:01:35. > :01:38.doctors be forced to act against conscience? Dr Richard Scott
:01:38. > :01:42.believes it is wrong that he is facing professional sanction
:01:42. > :01:51.because he discussed whether faith in Christ might help the patient.
:01:52. > :01:55.Welcome to The Big Questions. The police in Rochdale news that
:01:55. > :01:58.Asian men had been grooming vulnerable young girls for sex
:01:58. > :02:04.since 2008 when a 15 year-old victim told them what had happened
:02:04. > :02:08.to her. It took until May, 2011, when Nazir Afzal was appointed
:02:08. > :02:12.Chief Crown Prosecutor for the North West before the law did
:02:12. > :02:18.anything about it. He said that imported cultural baggage played a
:02:18. > :02:23.role in this terrible crime. The convicted men all thought that
:02:23. > :02:28.women are lesser beings. Should the Pakistani community put its own
:02:28. > :02:32.house in order? It is a question that has been debated one way or
:02:32. > :02:35.another this week. Lots of people are uncomfortable with this
:02:35. > :02:42.question, Mohammed Shafique. Is it a fair question? Yes, it is. The
:02:42. > :02:47.facts are that out of 77 recent convictions, 67 a Pakistani man.
:02:47. > :02:56.80% of sexual offenders in terms of online crooning of Wight. We have
:02:56. > :03:00.to put it into context. -- online grooming are white people. So why
:03:00. > :03:04.is this anything to do with the Pakistani community? As a community
:03:04. > :03:07.we have to reflect why it is that there are people among us that big
:03:07. > :03:16.that white girls are worthless and they can use and abuse them in this
:03:16. > :03:20.abhorrent way. Just white girls? actually think it is a race issue.
:03:20. > :03:27.I have been stopped many times in the community... I live in Rochdale,
:03:27. > :03:31.unlike some people commentating on this. I live in the community and I
:03:31. > :03:37.can tell you that there is a problem with a minority of people
:03:37. > :03:41.who think that white girls are worthless. Let's explore this a
:03:41. > :03:47.little bit more. British Pakistanis have been saying exactly what you
:03:47. > :03:55.are saying. Some have been agreeing with you. And a man who has been
:03:55. > :04:00.working in this area who you know has used the expression of cultural
:04:00. > :04:05.dissonance. They come from a socially conservative, rural
:04:05. > :04:11.culture with no emphasis on sexual gratification, into a liberal,
:04:11. > :04:15.perhaps over sexualise culture, our own culture. Explain that. You said
:04:15. > :04:20.before that we don't talk about sex. That is a problem. We don't show
:04:20. > :04:25.affection. My mother and my late father, if they were in the same
:04:25. > :04:31.room, would not show affection to each other, and as a community we
:04:31. > :04:41.have got this baggage. I would caution what that man said. That is
:04:41. > :04:44.this. Previous cases of second and third generation Pakistani men,
:04:45. > :04:51.they were actually born in the UK. Placing too much emphasis on the
:04:51. > :04:56.cultural baggage is quite dangerous. Is there any cultural baggage here?
:04:56. > :05:00.Are we unfairly targeting a community? A vile, degenerate
:05:00. > :05:06.person who will prey on innocent girls does not take race into
:05:06. > :05:08.account. They go after girls, simple. Saying they go after white
:05:08. > :05:17.girls any is bang out of order because you are turning it into a
:05:17. > :05:21.race issue when it clearly is not. It is a race issue. It is not. It
:05:21. > :05:28.is important to realise this. You are diverting from the at all
:05:28. > :05:31.problem, which is that we have file, degenerate men calming young girls.
:05:31. > :05:35.-- the actual problem. Because they are Pakistani they are not more
:05:35. > :05:40.likely to do this. They picked up a web they could, which so happened
:05:40. > :05:45.to be white gills. Some have gone after Bangladeshi girls. It does
:05:45. > :05:49.not matter who they are, they do not think about race. I think race
:05:49. > :05:55.is a central issue to this. I am not going to talk about speculation.
:05:55. > :06:00.If you look at the facts, 77 recent convictions, of which 67 of
:06:00. > :06:03.Pakistani men. As a member of the Pakistani community, we have to be
:06:03. > :06:08.honest and open. One of the things that I called for in the Times
:06:08. > :06:12.newspaper this week was for the leaders to speak out openly and for
:06:12. > :06:18.the police to report to the main mosque in Rochdale, making some
:06:18. > :06:22.powerful points. We have got to deal with this. You can look at it
:06:22. > :06:26.the other way. Young white girls are more likely to be out on the
:06:26. > :06:30.streets at night, so some people might think that white communities
:06:30. > :06:35.have to get their act together. suppose that was the second part of
:06:35. > :06:40.my argument in my piece. As a community, we have to reflect on
:06:40. > :06:45.why white girls are wandering the streets at 3 o'clock in the morning.
:06:45. > :06:51.Absolutely. This is victim blaming. You cannot look at young,
:06:51. > :06:54.vulnerable girls... I take your point, that communities have to put
:06:55. > :07:02.their house in order. Every community has to get their house in
:07:02. > :07:07.order. If it is cultural, the culture that affects young girls
:07:07. > :07:10.and enables sexual predators to abuse them is called patriarchy and
:07:10. > :07:15.sexism. There is no culture in this world where girls are valued on a
:07:15. > :07:19.par with poise and I would like to say this. Why did nobody talk about
:07:19. > :07:24.the endemic sexual abuse of children and adult women by the
:07:24. > :07:30.clergy as a white problem? There is no such thing as a Pakistani
:07:30. > :07:33.problem. Well, it was spoken about as a Catholic problem. People said
:07:33. > :07:38.the Catholic Church needed to get its act together. But we did not
:07:38. > :07:42.talk about white men abusing white children, but men abusing children.
:07:42. > :07:46.There is no question that some police have been reluctant to act
:07:47. > :07:50.on these cases involving Pakistani child abusers because they are
:07:50. > :07:54.feared they will be labelled racist. That is something for white people
:07:54. > :07:57.to look at. If we are so scared about being called racist that we
:07:57. > :08:03.allow 15 year-old girls to be prostituted and raped, then there
:08:03. > :08:10.is something wrong with white people as well. You have been on
:08:10. > :08:14.this for a long time, writing about this for a long time, haven't you?
:08:14. > :08:18.Is there any cultural baggage here, Andrew? Firstly, let's get the
:08:18. > :08:23.facts right. The vast majority of child sex offenders in this country
:08:23. > :08:27.of white men acting on their own. If you look at offences where the
:08:27. > :08:32.victims of pre-pubescent, where the victims of boys, where it runs in
:08:32. > :08:36.the family, then it is usually white men acting alone. What is
:08:36. > :08:41.different about this, and when the Government ordered an assessment
:08:41. > :08:47.last year of St grooming, they found that in a country that is 6%
:08:47. > :08:53.Asian, at 46% of all offenders were Asian. When it came to grips, it
:08:53. > :09:00.was over half in cultures that are 6% Asian. -- when it came two
:09:01. > :09:04.groups. This has become normalised group activity. They have not been
:09:04. > :09:08.cases of groups of white men being convicted. This is not organised
:09:08. > :09:12.crime gangs in Rochdale, they were respected members of the community.
:09:12. > :09:16.This activity was carried out between work colleagues, friends,
:09:16. > :09:20.relatives, with girls being shared around. You could not do that in
:09:20. > :09:23.the white community. There are an awful lot of paedophiles, but if
:09:23. > :09:29.you share that with colleagues and friends, somebody would say there
:09:29. > :09:37.is something wrong. That is the mindset that needs to be challenged.
:09:37. > :09:45.What is that minds that? -- minds that? It is the mindset that has
:09:45. > :09:49.normalised the abuse of young girls. It is not a mindset that is
:09:49. > :09:55.acceptable within a small subsection of the criminal section
:09:55. > :10:00.of the Pakistani community. It is the Pakistani community that has to
:10:00. > :10:04.sort themselves out. You feel strongly about that? You are saying
:10:04. > :10:08.it is the Pakistani modus operandi to abuse children. It is a criminal
:10:09. > :10:12.sub-sector. It is a criminal problem within society, not the
:10:12. > :10:16.Pakistani community. That is how we have to look at it. If you are
:10:16. > :10:21.focusing on ways, then we are diverting from the fact of what
:10:21. > :10:25.support mechanisms do we have in place for young girls? -- focusing
:10:25. > :10:28.on race. What is actually wrong in society that we all need to deal
:10:28. > :10:32.with? It is not saying that you Pakistanis have a problem and you
:10:32. > :10:38.have to deal with it, come back next year. We all have to deal with
:10:38. > :10:47.it. I will come back to you in the second. I do think that one reason
:10:47. > :10:56.why these girls were all white is because the Asian girls are better
:10:56. > :11:00.protected by their families. If it were that this gang had got
:11:00. > :11:08.involved with Asian girls, they may have finished up with their throat
:11:08. > :11:16.cut. That is not true. Can I finish? I spent 16 years working on
:11:16. > :11:20.this sort of thing as a Member of Parliament. I worked on cases 10
:11:20. > :11:27.years ago. It was identical to what has actually been put before us
:11:27. > :11:30.this last week. Why are they have Greater Manchester police are
:11:30. > :11:36.saying they did not know anything about this, I don't know because I
:11:36. > :11:45.knew about it 10 years ago. -- why on earth? There was a reluctance to
:11:45. > :11:50.talk about it. We have to take into account of the fact that there is
:11:50. > :11:55.much use my own part of the Pakistani community. -- Maggie
:11:55. > :12:01.Smith. They have that in all cultures. It is bang out of order
:12:01. > :12:05.to focus on the Pakistani community. What about the pain culture in the
:12:05. > :12:10.white community? I am sorry, can I just tell you something that
:12:10. > :12:16.happened in Bradford? To get women Asian councillors we had to have a
:12:16. > :12:24.rule that stopped the Asian meant selecting more men to contest their
:12:24. > :12:28.seats. -- Asian men. We now have five excellent women Labour
:12:28. > :12:32.councillors who are Asian. Let's get back to the victims. You want
:12:32. > :12:36.to talk about the victims. I agree with what he was saying and I
:12:36. > :12:43.respect the work that you have done on this issue because it needs to
:12:43. > :12:47.be exposed. But the problem I have with the idea that Asian girls are
:12:47. > :12:53.better protected in the home is that most child sexual abuse occurs
:12:53. > :12:59.in the home. This is hidden. It is endemic. We have a problem with the
:12:59. > :13:02.devaluing of girls in every single culture. I do think there are
:13:02. > :13:06.problems in certain cultures where there is a fundamentalist religion
:13:06. > :13:10.and it is worse for women, but I would not so those girls are
:13:10. > :13:17.protected in the home. They are not on the streets, but many are abused
:13:17. > :13:20.in the home. The problem is the focus on the word community. There
:13:20. > :13:26.is no homogenous Pakistani community, any more than there is a
:13:26. > :13:29.white community, and Asian community. The frame of the
:13:30. > :13:35.question is that the Pakistani house should get its house in order,
:13:35. > :13:39.which is silly. People do not want to police their own communities.
:13:39. > :13:44.That is the top of the police and the social services and the CPS to
:13:44. > :13:47.deal with this issue. And they have failed, no doubt about it. The idea
:13:47. > :13:52.that the Community should police itself opens them up to more abuse.
:13:52. > :13:57.Then you have got local community leaders, just like the case you
:13:57. > :14:00.mentioned in the Jewish community in New York, at and in that case
:14:00. > :14:04.the Orthodox rabbi leaders themselves went to the police and
:14:04. > :14:09.said they would deal with that problem in their own community.
:14:09. > :14:13.Similar to the Catholic Church? Exactly. If you make it into a
:14:13. > :14:18.community, cultural thing, you are making it worse. You are saying
:14:18. > :14:23.that the community leaders have to deal with it. So it is counter-
:14:23. > :14:26.productive? We have to take a step back at look at the facts. I hear
:14:26. > :14:34.what you are all saying, but the reality is that we have got a
:14:34. > :14:43.problem. Let me finish. When you say the facts, that is not true.
:14:43. > :14:47.Let me finish. I have listened to you quietly. Not that quietly!
:14:47. > :14:55.point is that we have got a problem. Looking at the facts, I am not
:14:55. > :14:59.going to look at speculation of people arrested. 77 people arrested,
:14:59. > :15:06.67 Pakistani men. We have to look at the wider context. This week we
:15:06. > :15:09.saw eight men convicted of child abuse in Edinburgh. So does the
:15:09. > :15:16.Scottish Community need to get their house in order? No mention
:15:16. > :15:21.whatsoever in their newspapers. We have to be careful how we deal with
:15:21. > :15:25.this. I have understood that we have got a problem. The Pakistani
:15:25. > :15:29.community in Rochdale has been very vocal. You have been accused of
:15:29. > :15:33.playing into the hands of the BNP. They were due to come to Rochdale
:15:33. > :15:43.yesterday and they have not turned up. I think this is a direct result
:15:43. > :15:47.
:15:47. > :15:52.By dealing with this issue now, we have stopped the BNP... Why is he
:15:52. > :15:57.in some ways giving them...? Because he is making it into a race
:15:57. > :16:01.issue. If you say that, and you're suddenly pointing to a bunch of
:16:01. > :16:06.Scottish guys in Scotland, that is also a race issue. If you're then
:16:06. > :16:11.talking about Irish Catholics abusing young kids, why is it not
:16:11. > :16:15.an Irish Catholic issue? It is a male issue. Across a lot of
:16:15. > :16:20.communities, the culture is, we're going to abuse, and then once the
:16:20. > :16:26.kids get abused, then they hide it. So, the idea that it is a cultural
:16:26. > :16:33.issue... There are conservative elements in any culture. If you get
:16:33. > :16:40.a situation where the people in those communities, the so-called
:16:40. > :16:46.community leaders, are protected, that is a problem in itself.
:16:46. > :16:50.reason this is a cultural problem is because, unlike I suspect what
:16:50. > :16:55.happened in Edinburgh, here, you have people who, in the opinion of
:16:55. > :17:03.professionals close to that case, had a schizophrenic existence,
:17:03. > :17:06.where conduct which would be unthinkable... Let him finish.
:17:06. > :17:10.conduct somehow became morally acceptable with corrupted white
:17:10. > :17:15.girls. It is not just white girls, it is what is available. And in
:17:15. > :17:22.this country, out on the streets, it does tend to be white girl's who
:17:22. > :17:30.are scene. The fact is, I am working with a family in the West
:17:30. > :17:34.Midlands... I am working with a family which is a Sikh family,
:17:34. > :17:38.whose daughter has been through exactly the same process, an
:17:38. > :17:43.absolutely desperate process. I do think there are hidden stories
:17:43. > :17:47.which have not come out yet, but I do think, I'm afraid, if you have
:17:47. > :17:50.an attitude that something is permissible with one section of
:17:51. > :17:56.this society, and not permissible with your own, and I am not saying
:17:56. > :18:01.that is a majority. You make a generalisation, and then you say it
:18:02. > :18:06.is a minority. Look, most Muslim women in the UK are abused by
:18:06. > :18:11.Muslim men. You know why? Simply because most rape happens within
:18:11. > :18:17.families. So the idea that somehow they see one group of women as
:18:17. > :18:22.untouchable, it is just completely idiotic. Some of the women abused
:18:22. > :18:25.in these cases were Bangladeshi women. So, the idea that they are
:18:25. > :18:29.specifically picking out Englishwomen and trying to rake
:18:29. > :18:37.them is silly, because, if they had the opportunity to exploit Muslim
:18:37. > :18:42.women or Pakistani women, they would do it. This is what I was
:18:42. > :18:46.trying to say, the communities in our northern towns would jump on
:18:46. > :18:55.such characters very quickly indeed if it was found out that they were
:18:55. > :18:59.having relationships of this type. It would be self-policing. Yes, it
:18:59. > :19:03.would be self-policing, and I am not in favour of that. Let me
:19:03. > :19:07.finish what I'm saying, for goodness sake. What has been said
:19:07. > :19:11.goodness sake. What has been said already is that we have to look to
:19:11. > :19:20.the communities themselves, not to police, but just to change
:19:20. > :19:23.attitudes. That's all I am asking. But there have been several cases
:19:23. > :19:29.where cases of rape by people from those communities have been hidden
:19:29. > :19:33.away, so this idea that if Muslim women get raped by Muslim men, that
:19:33. > :19:37.they would get their throat cut, or that the men would police their own
:19:37. > :19:42.communities, is silly, because actually, there have been loads of
:19:42. > :19:46.cover-ups within the communities, even within madrassas. There was a
:19:46. > :19:49.report about 10 years ago, with a bunch of Muslim clerics saying, we
:19:49. > :19:59.have child abuse within our communities, and we need to deal
:19:59. > :20:03.
:20:03. > :20:10.with the problem. So, there is a lot of cover-up. Good morning to
:20:10. > :20:13.you... Good morning. I think it is dangerous to create an atmosphere
:20:13. > :20:15.where you're using race as a determining factor when you're
:20:16. > :20:20.talking about criminality. These are criminals, and it has been said
:20:20. > :20:23.by a number of people that we need to focus on their criminality. Yes,
:20:23. > :20:27.there are Common, shared values amongst these criminals which got
:20:27. > :20:37.them working together to do what they did. However, you cannot label
:20:37. > :20:41.whole community by that. Over here, let's go to you. I agree with what
:20:41. > :20:46.you're saying, but these things are multi-faceted, so at the same time,
:20:46. > :20:51.you cannot ignore the race issue. There is clearly an issue within
:20:52. > :20:56.that community, the facts are that 67 convictions have been made in
:20:56. > :21:00.that community. I come from Derby, and there have been convictions in
:21:00. > :21:09.Derby, and there are issues within that community, you cannot just
:21:09. > :21:17.ignore them. This kind of thing could happen anywhere, couldn't it?
:21:17. > :21:20.Of course it could, and it probably does. We talk about child sex abuse,
:21:20. > :21:26.but what they are also doing is actually passing the girls around
:21:26. > :21:29.for money. There are men who are willing to pay for sex from a child.
:21:29. > :21:37.And raped them repeatedly, it is just horrific, let's not lose sight
:21:37. > :21:46.of that. A simple freedom of information request shows that out
:21:46. > :21:50.of 53 grooming cases, five cases were Asian, the rest were white.
:21:50. > :21:54.We're saying, let's extrapolate from the 67 cases, it is a
:21:54. > :21:59.Pakistani problem. How can you do that? We have research groups who
:21:59. > :22:04.have spent time on this, saying the data is not reliable enough to
:22:04. > :22:09.extrapolate it as a Pakistani problem. I have already said, if
:22:09. > :22:15.you look at online grooming, it is something like 95% white people, of
:22:15. > :22:20.all ages, of all backgrounds, from 18 to 80, Oxford dons to road
:22:20. > :22:26.sweepers. There is a very specific model going on, which has been
:22:26. > :22:29.going on for 20 years, in the north and the Midlands. We seem to have
:22:29. > :22:34.agreed that everybody would like to change the mindsets of the
:22:34. > :22:40.individuals who are doing this. We had the quote at the start of the
:22:40. > :22:43.programme, about forced marriage, it was said that some people are
:22:43. > :22:48.saying this is just going to be another stick to beat the Muslim
:22:48. > :22:52.community. I am saying, we should be carrying our own stick. In a
:22:52. > :22:57.society where the police, the social services, everybody in
:22:57. > :23:01.authority, is too scared to confirm what is going on, and admit that
:23:01. > :23:11.there is a need to understand it, then the only people who are really
:23:11. > :23:11.
:23:11. > :23:15.going to get to grips with it are the brave people like Nazir Afzal
:23:15. > :23:17.who are standing up and saying, who are standing up and saying,
:23:17. > :23:23.this is wrong. We have to leave it there. If you would like to have
:23:23. > :23:27.your say about that debate, log on to the website, you will find links
:23:27. > :23:30.to the discussion online. We are also debating live this morning, is
:23:30. > :23:34.it right to spy on your spouse? And also, should doctors be forced to
:23:34. > :23:38.act against conscience? Tell us what you think about those topics,
:23:38. > :23:48.too. You can send us any general comments you would like to make as
:23:48. > :23:51.
:23:51. > :23:57.It is spring, the wedding season, brides and grooms are promising to
:23:57. > :23:59.love each other in sickness and in health, for better for worse, and
:23:59. > :24:02.forsaking all others. But what if one of those promises has been
:24:02. > :24:10.broken? Is it your right to discover the truth, to hire
:24:10. > :24:15.somebody to spy on your spouse? Well, Rebecca Jane, a few years ago,
:24:15. > :24:19.you suspected your husband was having an affair - what happened?
:24:19. > :24:23.tried to hire private investigators, and I found them to be really cold
:24:23. > :24:28.and hard and wanted lots of money it off me. So I got my friends to
:24:28. > :24:35.help, we did it ourselves. Does the private investigator community need
:24:35. > :24:40.to get its act in order? But you found certain attitudes which you
:24:40. > :24:44.were uncomfortable within the way that they operate? Yes, I rang up,
:24:44. > :24:47.I poured out my heart, and they did not care in the slightest. They
:24:47. > :24:55.were just calculating the money, and it was it. And so I did not
:24:55. > :25:00.hire any of them. What did you do instead? We did the DIY detective
:25:00. > :25:05.thing, we spider on him, a lot, and we found out a lot as well. What
:25:05. > :25:10.did you find out? He was having liaisons with about five or six
:25:10. > :25:16.women, and I was seven months pregnant at the time. It was an
:25:16. > :25:24.amazing period of my life. I bet you were somewhat slightly upset.
:25:24. > :25:29.was not very thrilled. Five or six? Yes. And when you confronted him?
:25:29. > :25:34.He went into utter denial, a bit like a lot of my clients' partners
:25:34. > :25:38.do now. But we had some decent evidence, and probably to this day
:25:38. > :25:43.he will deny it until he is blue in the face. What kind of evidence did
:25:43. > :25:49.you go there then, and what do you go the now? We do surveillance a
:25:49. > :25:52.lot, and that is what we did back then as well. But I also owned his
:25:52. > :25:58.mobile phone, so I was able to check who he was ringing, when he
:25:59. > :26:04.was telling me that his battery had died and everything. Have you ever
:26:04. > :26:10.listened to a voicemail message, Mr Murdoch?! I have nothing to do with
:26:10. > :26:16.the News of the World. Have you ever bugged the telephone? No.
:26:16. > :26:21.you ever read a text message? do you mean? Would you for example
:26:21. > :26:25.have read his text messages at the time? Yes, but I owned his
:26:25. > :26:30.telephone. It is interesting, because we do not know what we are
:26:30. > :26:33.able to do, and what we are not able to do. Absolutely, people
:26:33. > :26:38.misunderstand that there are laws and it is criminal to do certain
:26:38. > :26:43.things. You cannot break into your husband or wife's e-mails, even if
:26:43. > :26:47.you have the home computer together. If you go into his password and
:26:47. > :26:52.look at his e-mails, that is illegal. If you look at people's
:26:52. > :27:02.text messages, that is illegal. If they leave it open and you happen
:27:02. > :27:02.
:27:03. > :27:08.to glance at it, that's OK. There was a case about a year ago which
:27:09. > :27:17.set the boundaries for us lawyers. We cannot use 99% of what private
:27:17. > :27:21.detectives go and find out these days. The thing is that if you
:27:21. > :27:24.break into your husband's briefcase and take out those documents and
:27:24. > :27:30.then come to your lawyer, put them on the desk and say, look what I
:27:30. > :27:37.have found, the lawyer has to say, I cannot even look at ease. What
:27:37. > :27:46.about going through his pockets? What if you put it in the wash and
:27:46. > :27:54.then go through the pockets? you cannot even look at it! You're
:27:54. > :27:58.not allowed to do that? No, because of we have this human rights act,
:27:58. > :28:02.which says they have a right to privacy. And we have been given
:28:02. > :28:09.directives about what we can and cannot use. If you put a tracker on
:28:09. > :28:17.a car, it is a bit of a grey area. What can you do, then? You know, it
:28:17. > :28:25.is really difficult. Surveillance is one of the easiest things.
:28:25. > :28:29.Watching somebody going into a flat or something? There's a lot less
:28:29. > :28:33.definite boundaries in that kind of thing. But there are a lot of
:28:33. > :28:36.things which we cannot do. We have to constantly speak to the Data
:28:36. > :28:41.Protection people. At the end of the day, you need to think about
:28:41. > :28:49.why this is happening. This is not the fault of our clients. This is
:28:49. > :28:55.the fault of somebody else, potentially, until proved otherwise.
:28:55. > :29:02.And Christmas is your busiest time? Before Christmas is the quietest
:29:02. > :29:08.time, and after Christmas is most definitely the busiest. Terry
:29:08. > :29:12.Prendergast, chief executive of Marriage Care, coming from a
:29:12. > :29:17.Christian perspective - you think this is deceitful, don't you?
:29:17. > :29:20.deceitful, I can understand why people do it. But for me it is a
:29:20. > :29:26.classic example of the solution becoming part of the problem. The
:29:26. > :29:32.difficulty I think we have in our culture is, we do not teach people
:29:32. > :29:35.how to build relationships. In hiring a private detective, what do
:29:35. > :29:39.you want to achieve, do you want evidence which give you the courage
:29:39. > :29:43.to confront your partner or do you want evidence to actually break the
:29:43. > :29:53.relationship up? If it is about confronting your partner about what
:29:53. > :29:53.
:29:53. > :29:57.he is doing, or she, then I think that my suggestion would be, cut
:29:57. > :30:00.out the middleman and save yourself hundreds of pounds and do the
:30:00. > :30:05.confrontation yourself. I know it is very difficult. We have loads
:30:05. > :30:08.and loads of people who have been coming to our organisation for help
:30:08. > :30:14.over more than 60 years, and infidelity is one of the biggest
:30:14. > :30:18.hurdles to get over. A personal, intimate relationship is probably
:30:18. > :30:22.one of the most difficult decisions you make in your life. At that
:30:22. > :30:27.point you're under the influence of a Class A drug called Romans, so
:30:27. > :30:31.none of us are able to make a rational decision. -- called
:30:31. > :30:41.romance. It is at that point that people will often try to find
:30:41. > :30:45.
:30:45. > :30:49.This is true, I agree with you, but our clients on in no way naive. We
:30:49. > :30:52.deal with barristers, people of exceptionally high intelligence. If
:30:52. > :30:55.they could talk to their partners, and their partners would come
:30:55. > :31:02.straight out with everything that was going on, they would not call
:31:02. > :31:05.us up. There is mediation between this. I agree for some people to
:31:05. > :31:10.talk directly to their partner and confront them is incredibly
:31:10. > :31:17.uncomfortable. But by going to a relationship counsellor, if someone
:31:17. > :31:21.that can mediate between a couple... As a psychologist, I watch what
:31:21. > :31:25.people are saying, how they are saying it, body language, I can
:31:25. > :31:32.work closely with a couple to tease out information that they have
:31:32. > :31:36.tried to deny it up until that point. If you go straight from I
:31:36. > :31:43.cannot confront them to a private investigator... I cannot think of a
:31:43. > :31:47.single couple that has done this and come out happy with the results.
:31:47. > :31:51.Are you a marriage guidance counsellor? I wish! You get
:31:51. > :31:55.everybody. They pour out their life stories, that is just the way that
:31:55. > :31:59.it is. If they could talk to one another, and they often have talked
:31:59. > :32:03.to each other and people go into denial, and it is not a perfect
:32:04. > :32:08.world. If they find out that they have been to a private investigator,
:32:08. > :32:12.they have every right legally and otherwise... Some people cannot go
:32:12. > :32:16.to a counsellor because the other partner will not go. What we always
:32:16. > :32:21.say to women in particular, when they want a private detective to
:32:21. > :32:27.find out, we always say it what are you going to do with the
:32:27. > :32:33.information? Are you going to leave your partner? Do you really want to
:32:33. > :32:37.know? Others will say yes, some will say they don't. It is
:32:37. > :32:41.fundamental in a relationship. The things that support any
:32:41. > :32:46.relationship, trust, respect, communication. That is all broken
:32:46. > :32:49.down. In a perfect world. No, in every world. In every relationship
:32:49. > :32:53.there should be that and there probably was at the beginning and
:32:53. > :32:58.you have to find it with your partner again somehow. I think the
:32:58. > :33:03.last possible resort in solving any relationship, whether it you talk
:33:03. > :33:09.to a friend, the church, a councillor, a coach, a psychologist,
:33:09. > :33:14.the last possible resort should be finding a private investigator.
:33:14. > :33:17.that is when they come to us. They are not bringing us up to find out
:33:17. > :33:20.if their partner is playing with fluffy bunnies in a field somewhere.
:33:20. > :33:24.They are ringing us up because there is a major serious problem
:33:24. > :33:31.and they have nowhere else to go. Do you think this is right
:33:31. > :33:34.ethically? We work with victims of press intrusion and there is a
:33:34. > :33:39.contentious issue about whether accessing emails on a family
:33:39. > :33:43.computer is unlawful. I have had different advice from what you said.
:33:43. > :33:46.What is in no doubt is that industrial scale fishing
:33:46. > :33:49.expeditions on ordinary members of the public and even celebrities and
:33:49. > :33:54.certainly their families is not lawful. That is a significant
:33:54. > :34:00.bridge and it is widespread of the Data Protection Act. -- significant
:34:00. > :34:04.breach. This was across all media group's 10 years ago, not just News
:34:04. > :34:08.International, and we don't believe that those practices ended when a
:34:08. > :34:12.particular investigator was raided. There is good evidence coming out
:34:12. > :34:18.today that there is a very big private investigation industry and
:34:18. > :34:22.we should all be alarmed. Rebecca Jane is not going to appear
:34:22. > :34:26.before the Leveson Inquiry! No, but we should be alarmed about the
:34:26. > :34:30.extent of the private investigator industry. They put Trojans on
:34:30. > :34:35.computers. Lawfully they say if it is a marital commuter, not the word
:34:35. > :34:40.computer of the husband, for example... I am just warning people
:34:40. > :34:44.that this is going on and this is one end of that industry. It goes
:34:44. > :34:54.into insurance companies using private investigators, and I think
:34:54. > :34:58.Parliament needs to look at this again. OK. Back there? Personally I
:34:58. > :35:05.believe that, like my friend did say, what is the motive in all
:35:05. > :35:10.these things? Is it divorce? What is the key thing? I believe people
:35:10. > :35:15.need to come to a place whereby they talk among themselves and the
:35:15. > :35:23.community leaders come together to mediate and know what is going on
:35:23. > :35:28.before these things are set up. The final outcome, you may not like it.
:35:28. > :35:32.Would you prefer not to know? actually answer that. The general
:35:32. > :35:37.motive when people ring us up, and it is a common misconception,
:35:37. > :35:40.people do want to stay together. They don't come to us and say they
:35:40. > :35:44.what evidence to leave their partner. It is unusual that they
:35:44. > :35:47.wanted for the divorce. Do people come to you because this is back
:35:47. > :35:53.upon his having an affair, and it was established that they were, and
:35:53. > :36:01.there has been a happy ending? a lot of people. Probably 60% of
:36:01. > :36:06.our clients. Are all of your clients women? No. Are the vast
:36:06. > :36:11.majority women? I think it is interesting with patriarchy.
:36:11. > :36:13.slightly more women. It is really difficult, and I have found as
:36:14. > :36:17.professionally, for people to sit down and talk about a relationship
:36:17. > :36:21.that has gone wrong. It is difficult and painful to do that.
:36:21. > :36:26.The problem for men is that we find it more difficult than women. For
:36:26. > :36:30.whatever reason. Exactly. And we live in a society that stigmatises
:36:30. > :36:34.relationship difficulties. Stigmatises relationships breaking
:36:34. > :36:38.down, despite the fact it is costing us 45 billion to the
:36:38. > :36:47.taxpayer. We are making no inroads at all and I think has meant we
:36:47. > :36:51.need to do something to understand that the people we live with a
:36:51. > :36:56.working and communicating in a different way. -- the many to do
:36:56. > :37:03.something. I think if you have this level of mistrust then things are
:37:03. > :37:08.seriously wrong. I think that is naive. Some people are not in a
:37:08. > :37:12.position that you are. Some people are so frightened they need to know
:37:12. > :37:16.the information. I'm not saying it is necessarily right, but they do
:37:16. > :37:20.need to know. What is very important, there is so much
:37:20. > :37:24.advertised on the internet, people downloading things to stop spying
:37:24. > :37:29.on their husbands and wives, their telephones and everything, they are
:37:29. > :37:34.illegal. -- to start spying. This is not funny, they could get into
:37:34. > :37:40.trouble, they could go to prison. They need to be educated.
:37:40. > :37:44.getting some electronic device? absolutely. I don't want to give
:37:44. > :37:49.you the impression that I think that the work that you are doing is
:37:49. > :37:53.in anyway questionable. I think they are private detectives are
:37:53. > :37:57.doing exemplary work that is a great public service. But for many
:37:57. > :38:02.women that have been cheated on, who desperately need to keep hold
:38:02. > :38:10.of half of the marital home, need to sort out child custody issues,
:38:10. > :38:14.then perhaps it is the only way that they can go. It is about trust.
:38:14. > :38:17.I think there is a right in any relationship, and I am listening to
:38:17. > :38:24.the practicalities and the legalities, and at the end of the
:38:24. > :38:30.day... Of men are not very communicative at many times. They
:38:30. > :38:36.tend to be the ones whose behaviour changes, especially when they are
:38:36. > :38:40.having an affair. How? You notice a significant difference. They might
:38:40. > :38:44.be troubled at work, they may not be well, they might have financial
:38:44. > :38:50.concerns that they do not want to discuss. They become withdrawn.
:38:50. > :38:54.could be gambling? I absolutely. Ladies' underwear? That is more
:38:54. > :38:58.likely to be an affair! But as a woman, your intuition tells you
:38:58. > :39:01.that a man's behaviour is changing but not necessarily because of an
:39:01. > :39:05.affair. You go to a private investigator and they find he is
:39:05. > :39:11.not having an affair. I don't know how you come back from that when
:39:11. > :39:17.you have made it that huge step. That is a very good point and it
:39:17. > :39:20.deserves some appreciation. What happens when your partner says to
:39:20. > :39:24.you that I hired a private investigator to see if you are
:39:24. > :39:30.having an affair and you are not! Let's go out for dinner! They never
:39:30. > :39:34.say that. These are secrets and lies. I will say that whenever we
:39:34. > :39:38.deliver a result, it people generally are happy in one way or
:39:38. > :39:42.another. Relieved that they are not going insane, because people are
:39:43. > :39:47.tortured every single day and they have nowhere else to turn. They
:39:47. > :39:51.have, but they choose to turn to you but carry on. They have
:39:51. > :39:57.generally tried it. I am sure your clients have not been to
:39:57. > :40:06.relationship boating before they come to you. That is ridiculous.
:40:06. > :40:11.relationship coaching. In how many couples where only one partner
:40:12. > :40:15.agrees to come in? I see it all the time. Somebody said why don't you
:40:15. > :40:21.go to the community leaders, most of us don't have community leaders
:40:21. > :40:26.any more. They go to their GP. All too often the other half will not
:40:26. > :40:30.come in. I agree. But I would like to see people coming to a
:40:30. > :40:35.relationship counsellor when they sense there is something wrong, or
:40:35. > :40:38.not right rather, as opposed to it having gone wrong. You are a
:40:38. > :40:42.relationship counsellor at so you want people to go to relationship
:40:42. > :40:49.counsellors. You are private detective and so you want people to
:40:49. > :40:54.go to detective! Can I correct something that is wrong? I don't
:40:54. > :41:00.think that people will face present in the case of spouses. There is
:41:01. > :41:05.nothing in terms of the misuse of data protection for that. I don't
:41:05. > :41:10.know of any spouse who would face present but I am saying that
:41:10. > :41:20.Parliament needs to look at it again. -- face prison. Not for
:41:20. > :41:21.
:41:22. > :41:26.partners and spouses, but the industry. Thank you. You can log on
:41:26. > :41:31.to our website to follow the links to continue the discussion online.
:41:31. > :41:35.And now, it should doctors be forced to act against conscience?
:41:35. > :41:40.If you would like to be in the audience for a future show, you can
:41:40. > :41:46.email us. Next week, a pre-recorded special from London, debating just
:41:46. > :41:50.one big question. Is there a difference between a cult and a
:41:50. > :41:58.religion? We will be live from Glasgow for the last show of the
:41:58. > :42:04.series on the June 3rd. The draft guidelines on the General
:42:04. > :42:07.Medical Council contain rules to stop doctors talking about faith,
:42:07. > :42:11.make them recommend treatments like contraception and abortion but they
:42:11. > :42:14.believe are morally wrong, and to make sure doctors of the treatment
:42:14. > :42:24.to patients with lifestyles that they disapprove of like alcoholics
:42:24. > :42:24.
:42:24. > :42:28.and drug takers. -- offer treatment. So should doctors be able to work
:42:28. > :42:35.against conscience? You are involved in a case that is on-going
:42:35. > :42:38.and we cannot divulge the details because of patient confidentiality.
:42:38. > :42:41.A patient with problems that conventional medicine had not
:42:41. > :42:46.solved and you suggested that Christ had helped you and you
:42:46. > :42:53.suggested that might help him. And everything hit the fan, didn't it?
:42:53. > :42:56.It did. But there was a complaint. Yes, by his mother, who was not in
:42:56. > :43:01.the consultation. The patient reflected back that I only spoke
:43:01. > :43:06.about uses, which was not accurate. We had had a lengthy consultation
:43:06. > :43:10.before that. First of all, I looked at his faith, different from mine,
:43:10. > :43:14.discovered it was not helping and said that over the years as a GP I
:43:15. > :43:17.had discovered that in my life and in the lives of my patients, that
:43:17. > :43:22.hundreds of people have been massively helped by taking on
:43:22. > :43:25.aspects of the Christian faith. Praying, going to church, becoming
:43:25. > :43:31.Christians. So why are offered him something that I was convinced
:43:31. > :43:36.would help her. -- I offered him. You are only the messenger, nobody
:43:36. > :43:41.is forced to do anything. I offered it, he did not like it, that is
:43:41. > :43:47.fine, and six weeks later I got a letter from the GMC. If you went to
:43:47. > :43:52.a confirmed atheist Dr, and he said that you are deluded and you think
:43:52. > :44:00.you have got an imaginary friend and you don't, were to be offended?
:44:00. > :44:07.He would be utterly wrong. -- would you be offended? Would he be
:44:07. > :44:11.utterly wrong to say that? He can share his view. But I don't agree.
:44:11. > :44:15.There is a variety of views on a community that I sit on, so I am
:44:15. > :44:20.not speaking for them, but your primary concern should be the care
:44:20. > :44:23.of the patient. What you are not allowed to do, and this is very
:44:23. > :44:31.clear, is impose your own personal beliefs, religious or political.
:44:31. > :44:36.Let me finish. This is important. We can pursue your point in a
:44:36. > :44:41.minute. You are not supposed to impose a personal beliefs on
:44:41. > :44:45.patients, especially when they are vulnerable. And you have said in
:44:45. > :44:48.interviews on the radio, including on Nicky Campbell's radio programme,
:44:48. > :44:52.that you have done this for hundreds if not thousands of
:44:52. > :44:57.patients. You said to this gentleman that you thought his fate
:44:57. > :45:02.could not help him and only Jesus could help people with this stuff.
:45:02. > :45:12.-- is faith. If you have that view, and you can, then you should be a
:45:12. > :45:14.
:45:14. > :45:18.preacher, and not giving it in an First of all, you're not accurate.
:45:18. > :45:21.I did not say it in the way that you phrased it. I stated that
:45:21. > :45:31.Christianity, you might find, could help you more than your current
:45:31. > :45:35.fate. The second point was, over the 13 years that I have been a GP,
:45:35. > :45:39.I have seen hundreds and hundreds of patients massively helped by
:45:39. > :45:45.fate, which is because in my view, and in their view, there is a God
:45:45. > :45:48.who really cares for them. Statistics show that health is
:45:48. > :45:58.massively helped by religion. The great majority of papers which have
:45:58. > :46:02.been written on this subject have been about the Christian religion.
:46:02. > :46:08.Sarah Jarvis, you have got a pained expression on your face. I have to
:46:08. > :46:13.say, I find this quite shocking. It is clear that you're a caring
:46:13. > :46:19.doctor. Yes, part of our job is to talk to our patients and to help
:46:19. > :46:23.them. The fact is that first and foremost, we are there as doctors.
:46:23. > :46:27.People come to see me as a doctor. If I am going to tell them that
:46:27. > :46:31.something is right, then I need to be able to give them all the
:46:31. > :46:35.information. We work on a lot of programmes, things like shared
:46:35. > :46:40.decision-making, and all of it is about a partnership with your
:46:40. > :46:44.doctor, and giving them the evidence. Are there any randomised
:46:44. > :46:49.controlled tests, apart from anything else, on this subject?!
:46:49. > :46:55.The fact is, I have got two partners in a practice, I have one
:46:55. > :47:00.committed, practising Muslim as a partner, I have one lay preacher
:47:00. > :47:09.and warned ordained vicar, they would never dream of bringing
:47:09. > :47:16.religion into the consultation. That would be wrong. But they are
:47:16. > :47:20.not doing their job properly. In my 30 years of general practice, I
:47:20. > :47:25.trained up hundreds of medical students. One of the first things I
:47:25. > :47:29.say to them actually is that even if you're an atheist or a person of
:47:29. > :47:33.huge faith, religion is so important in the majority of your
:47:33. > :47:37.patients' lives, that if you're not as comfortable in taking the
:47:37. > :47:43.spiritual history of that patient, as you are of sexual history or
:47:43. > :47:46.medication history, you are failing them. The students often look as
:47:46. > :47:51.gobsmacked as Sarah, but in a week of practice, I have never had it
:47:51. > :47:56.the case that religious issues have not been raised by patients. Where
:47:56. > :48:01.are those patients going to go? am shocked by what I am hearing.
:48:01. > :48:11.Are we going to the same doctors? Because I have 10 minutes maximum
:48:11. > :48:21.with mine...! I do not want to go with a medical problem and have my
:48:21. > :48:21.
:48:21. > :48:27.religion questioned. There are other issues involved, which I
:48:27. > :48:32.would like to get into. I know you're no longer practising as a GP,
:48:32. > :48:35.Trevor Stammers, but supposing a 15-year-old girl came into you, and
:48:35. > :48:41.she was in a steady sexual relationship with her boyfriend,
:48:41. > :48:48.already having sex, and she what's contraception - would you give it
:48:48. > :48:52.to her? -- she wants contraception. My views do not come first. Would
:48:52. > :48:58.you give her contraception? It is the protection of the patient which
:48:58. > :49:04.comes first. Would you give her contraception? If she is being
:49:04. > :49:09.abused... I did not say that, that was not the scenario. Steady
:49:09. > :49:15.relationship, would you give her contraception? She is going to be
:49:15. > :49:18.unmarried, and if this GMC guidance is passed, I could lose my licence
:49:18. > :49:28.to practise as a doctor, because I will not give contraception to an
:49:28. > :49:31.
:49:31. > :49:37.under rage, unmarried girl. Is that fair? -- under age. You're saying
:49:37. > :49:40.he would never do it, even if it was in her best interests. I am
:49:40. > :49:50.sudden, I would not do it without investigating how old the boyfriend
:49:50. > :49:53.is, how many other sexual partners she has had. Most of those who came
:49:53. > :50:00.back to me were girls who had been put on to contraception by other
:50:00. > :50:04.doctors. I have worked for 21 years, and I'm like you did and still
:50:04. > :50:10.working as a GP, and icy patients every day, and on a very regular
:50:10. > :50:14.basis, I get 15-year-old scamming in - of course there are occasions
:50:14. > :50:17.where they have been abused, but the sad fact is, and I do think it
:50:17. > :50:22.is a sad fact, that the vast majority of them have been having
:50:22. > :50:27.sex before they come to see me, and will continue to have sex. There
:50:27. > :50:31.are absolutely clear guidelines - you have to do your best for the
:50:31. > :50:36.patient. You have to make sure that they understand what you're saying,
:50:36. > :50:40.you have to make sure that you cannot persuade them to come in
:50:40. > :50:47.with a responsible adult, and very often, actually, I can persuade
:50:47. > :50:52.them to come back with their mum. But what about the fact that I
:50:52. > :50:57.should be under threat of losing my licence if, on consideration of all
:50:57. > :51:03.things, and it is not only religious people who have
:51:03. > :51:09.consciences, atheists do as well, and if I am a atheist doctor, and a
:51:09. > :51:15.patient comes to me about religious circumcision, if I say no, then I
:51:15. > :51:20.think that equally, these regulations should apply. Because
:51:20. > :51:26.the same rule applies. The rule is that you must be able to defend
:51:26. > :51:31.your actions. That's what the GMC says, and if you do not refer for
:51:31. > :51:35.religious circumspection, of course you could defend your actions. --
:51:35. > :51:39.religious circumcision. The question you were asked was,
:51:39. > :51:43.whether you would ever consider it to be in the interests of your
:51:43. > :51:48.patient to prescribe an under-aged girl who is having consensual sex
:51:48. > :51:52.appeal. If the answer to that is never, for conscientious reasons,
:51:52. > :51:56.which I respect, then you cannot act as a doctor, because you're not
:51:56. > :52:01.prepared to put the best interests of your patient first. If the whole
:52:01. > :52:09.of my job revolved around aiding and abetting, as I would see it
:52:09. > :52:14.from the point of view of my conscience, under-aged sex, and
:52:14. > :52:19.there was a lot of talk about girls getting groomed in the previous
:52:19. > :52:23.debate... I am saying 75% of young girls or more who came to see me
:52:23. > :52:27.were already using contraception when they got pregnant. It is not
:52:27. > :52:33.lack of access, it is lack of boundary setting. In which case we
:52:33. > :52:39.need better education about reliable, long acting contraception.
:52:39. > :52:44.The sexual education community has to get its act in order. Good
:52:44. > :52:48.morning. We live in a society which is completely sexualised. Surely if
:52:48. > :52:51.someone is coming to you, they are looking for help, looking to you to
:52:51. > :52:59.protect them. Surely as a doctor you should not be imposing your
:52:59. > :53:02.views on them, you should be the one that helps them. As a Muslim
:53:02. > :53:06.couple we did have consultations with committed Christian doctors
:53:06. > :53:11.and nurses, we have had conversations about God, and they
:53:11. > :53:16.encouraged more faith in God, and as a Muslim couple, we actually
:53:16. > :53:19.appreciated the advice. It is not bad medical practice, in contrary
:53:19. > :53:23.to what the GMC say, because they failed to realise that psychology
:53:23. > :53:28.is part of the healing process. And my second point is that even though
:53:28. > :53:34.I am British, and I have been in a Christian boarding school, I can
:53:34. > :53:39.see things as an outsider, because I am a Muslim Bangladeshi. And I
:53:39. > :53:45.can see a situation where Christians are getting isolated in
:53:45. > :53:50.our society, and even as a Muslim, I feel very sad. I have got the
:53:50. > :53:56.Margate Muslims behind me supporting me and what I do. This
:53:56. > :54:01.is crucial. At the end of the day, you're saying it is a stitch-up,
:54:01. > :54:10.let's have more religion. But at the end of the day, if you want
:54:10. > :54:20.religious advice, or spiritual guidance, go down to the church or
:54:20. > :54:29.the mosque. There is a clear separation of these issues. If I go
:54:29. > :54:32.to the doctor, and supposed to get medical advice. -- I am supposed.
:54:33. > :54:37.What if somebody came and said, I feel I am trapped in the wrong body,
:54:37. > :54:43.I feel I should be a woman, I want to fulfil what I really am, can you
:54:43. > :54:48.put me on a course of hormones to enable me to be a woman? I'd do do
:54:48. > :54:51.that, and it is difficult for me as a Christian. I also prescribe
:54:51. > :54:55.under-age contraception, but it is difficult to do that. You have to
:54:55. > :55:01.decide which battles you want to fight as a Christian. My primary
:55:01. > :55:05.concern is the patient, which is why I bring up spiritual things.
:55:05. > :55:09.it true you have said that you recommend the Alpha course to
:55:09. > :55:14.patients, and a quarter of them go on it and half of those are helped?
:55:14. > :55:24.Is it the job of a Dr ever to recommend an evangelical, quite
:55:24. > :55:27.
:55:27. > :55:33.hard core... This is judgmental language. Well, it is evangelical!
:55:33. > :55:40.As a Christian organisation, one question we get asked very often is,
:55:40. > :55:45.we come from within the Catholic community originally, so will
:55:45. > :55:49.religion be involved? I say, no, people within our organisation are
:55:49. > :55:59.driven by personal fate, but we are very clear that you do not put your
:55:59. > :56:00.
:56:01. > :56:04.personal baggage in front of clients. When I take my car to the
:56:04. > :56:11.menders, I do not know what is wrong with it. Patients often do
:56:11. > :56:15.not realise... The guy in the garage does not pray, does he?
:56:15. > :56:20.World Health Organisation have stated that health is a combination
:56:20. > :56:24.of the physical, mental and spiritual aspects. It is not for
:56:24. > :56:31.you to tell a patient what religion they should follow. That's the
:56:31. > :56:35.problem. I am a man of faith, and I think fate has been marginalised by
:56:35. > :56:38.secularist and humanist and atheist, and I am on the opposite side to
:56:38. > :56:42.them, but you have got to behave more responsibility, because if I
:56:42. > :56:47.went to my GP and she started giving me lectures about religion,
:56:47. > :56:52.I think I would be walking straight out. If you went to your surgery
:56:52. > :56:58.and your GP was a Muslim... She is, but I would still feel
:56:58. > :57:01.uncomfortable. It is not marginalisation or victimisation to
:57:01. > :57:11.say that religion should generally be kept out of the consulting room
:57:11. > :57:14.of the GPA. -- of the GP. That is not intolerance. The circular
:57:14. > :57:17.argument is that when you're delivering the public service, you
:57:17. > :57:22.need to do so without discrimination based on religion,
:57:22. > :57:27.employers must not discriminate, as I think your surgery does... As I
:57:27. > :57:32.understand it, you advertise for people to work in your surgery, and
:57:32. > :57:37.for them to be Christians, is that right? That is what it says on your
:57:37. > :57:42.website, is it not? We have six Christian partners, we have four
:57:42. > :57:52.non- Christian employed people. The majority of our staff are not
:57:52. > :57:53.
:57:53. > :57:58.Christians. The GMC says in these draft guidelines... You're really
:57:58. > :58:02.worried about these guidelines. am, because they do discriminate
:58:02. > :58:07.against the religious. It specifically says, your patients
:58:07. > :58:11.may not trust you if you are religious. That, to me, is a
:58:11. > :58:15.discriminatory and sold. My patients may not trust me if I am