0:00:15 > 0:00:17AUDIENCE APPLAUDS
0:00:17 > 0:00:18Thank you, good morning.
0:00:18 > 0:00:22Welcome to The Big Questions live from the West London Academy in Northolt.
0:00:22 > 0:00:23I'm Nicky Campbell.
0:00:23 > 0:00:25Parents are usually delighted
0:00:25 > 0:00:29when their children want to follow the family's faith.
0:00:29 > 0:00:32But it's often a different matter when a teenager or young adult
0:00:32 > 0:00:35chooses a new religious direction, especially
0:00:35 > 0:00:39if the organisation they have chosen to follow has a charismatic leader,
0:00:39 > 0:00:45very different beliefs, or results in total separation from the family.
0:00:45 > 0:00:49In other words, they fear their beloved child has been
0:00:49 > 0:00:52recruited into what some would call "a cult".
0:00:52 > 0:00:56So this morning we're asking just one very Big Question -
0:00:56 > 0:01:00is there a difference between a cult and a religion?
0:01:00 > 0:01:02To debate it, we have some distinguished scholars,
0:01:02 > 0:01:05current members of several new religious movements,
0:01:05 > 0:01:09campaigners against cult techniques, concerned parents
0:01:09 > 0:01:12and people whose lives have been changed for ever.
0:01:12 > 0:01:16And they will be encouraged by our very lively London audience.
0:01:24 > 0:01:25As always you can join in too.
0:01:25 > 0:01:28Just log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions
0:01:28 > 0:01:32where you'll find links to continue the discussion online.
0:01:36 > 0:01:39So how would you categorise the following?
0:01:39 > 0:01:41Opus Dei, the Children of God,
0:01:41 > 0:01:44the Church of Scientology, the Unification Church,
0:01:44 > 0:01:47Branch Davidian, Jews for Jesus...
0:01:47 > 0:01:50Their members may think of them as a religion,
0:01:50 > 0:01:53but their critics have called them cults.
0:01:53 > 0:01:56Is there a difference between a cult and a religion?
0:01:56 > 0:01:58We've got Glenn Carter here. Hi, Glenn.
0:01:58 > 0:02:00Head of the Raelian movement in this country,
0:02:00 > 0:02:03so it's the equivalent of having the Archbishop of Canterbury on.
0:02:03 > 0:02:07Let's just go through your beliefs just to remind people.
0:02:08 > 0:02:12You believe that we're all descended from aliens,
0:02:12 > 0:02:14who came to Earth, known as the Elohim?
0:02:14 > 0:02:18Elohim, yes. I believe that life here was created by human beings,
0:02:18 > 0:02:19by scientists.
0:02:19 > 0:02:22- Right, and Jesus and Mohammed... - Were prophets.
0:02:22 > 0:02:25..and Buddha and Moses were all prophets who came from the Elohim?
0:02:25 > 0:02:27Yes, yes.
0:02:27 > 0:02:31And you... Your founder, Claude Vorilhon - Rael -
0:02:31 > 0:02:32he was not abducted,
0:02:32 > 0:02:35you wouldn't use the word abducted, he was contacted by aliens.
0:02:35 > 0:02:36What happened?
0:02:36 > 0:02:40He was contacted, he went to a place
0:02:40 > 0:02:43and he was given a message to share with humanity.
0:02:43 > 0:02:47Make no profit out of it, to make no money, just to publish the book
0:02:47 > 0:02:49and give it away, which is what he's been doing for 40 years.
0:02:49 > 0:02:51And the message is?
0:02:51 > 0:02:54That life here was created by human beings,
0:02:54 > 0:02:57just like we, as a scientific society going forward
0:02:57 > 0:03:00and beginning to learn how to create life ourselves...
0:03:00 > 0:03:01Cloning's big in your belief.
0:03:01 > 0:03:05Cloning... However... Creating unique life forms from scratch,
0:03:05 > 0:03:08using genetic techniques.
0:03:08 > 0:03:12We will, as we evolve, in our scientific development,
0:03:12 > 0:03:16go out to other planets and create... Like we have a biosphere, in Britain
0:03:16 > 0:03:21and we'll go out and create unique indigenous life to a planet somewhere. That's what happened here.
0:03:21 > 0:03:24- So we will be the Elohim of the future?- Exactly.
0:03:24 > 0:03:27- And that is the never-ending cycle. - Right, OK.
0:03:27 > 0:03:29For you, immortality is through cloning?
0:03:29 > 0:03:34All we believe is that there is no ethereal God,
0:03:34 > 0:03:35no mysticism in that respect,
0:03:35 > 0:03:40so what we believe is that there is only an afterlife if science creates one,
0:03:40 > 0:03:44we don't do our... We're not evangelical at all.
0:03:44 > 0:03:47People come to us, they find a book in a bookshop, or they search us out online.
0:03:47 > 0:03:51But if they come, they come to help
0:03:51 > 0:03:53other people find that message if they wish to,
0:03:53 > 0:03:56not for a reward of eternal life
0:03:56 > 0:04:00because we don't believe there is one, unless science creates one.
0:04:00 > 0:04:04And how do you feel about the derision and the contempt
0:04:04 > 0:04:08that you get from, established religions, mainstream religions?
0:04:08 > 0:04:12I actually feel, I feel a great deal of compassion for the mind
0:04:12 > 0:04:14that behaves in that way, to be honest with you.
0:04:14 > 0:04:18I feel sorry for people who hate without understanding,
0:04:18 > 0:04:22who condemn without really researching and trying to understand
0:04:22 > 0:04:26what I believe, and that it's benevolent, it's not in any way
0:04:26 > 0:04:27aggressive to anybody.
0:04:27 > 0:04:31As I say, we don't go out and grab people, induct people,
0:04:31 > 0:04:33people stay with their families, they live their lives.
0:04:33 > 0:04:36I'm an actor, I've been an actor for 30 years...
0:04:36 > 0:04:38How has it affected your career since you were known as a Raelian?
0:04:38 > 0:04:41Since I became publicly known as a Raelian,
0:04:41 > 0:04:44I went from being possibly the top 1 or 2% earners in my area of acting,
0:04:44 > 0:04:48to being pretty much unemployable, for doing nothing.
0:04:48 > 0:04:51I was the same person ten years before that,
0:04:51 > 0:04:56but I haven't worked to the degree I used to work for ten years now.
0:04:56 > 0:04:57Really?
0:04:57 > 0:05:02But that is a level of discrimination which I don't think is intentional,
0:05:02 > 0:05:04I don't say people say, "He's in a cult,
0:05:04 > 0:05:07"therefore he shouldn't be allowed to work."
0:05:07 > 0:05:09I think people are fearful and they say...
0:05:09 > 0:05:11What I hear is,
0:05:11 > 0:05:14"Oh, he's not necessarily a good member of a company."
0:05:14 > 0:05:18So some things go... Francesca, is this...? People are derisive of beliefs like this.
0:05:18 > 0:05:21Some would argue it's no different from believing in a virgin birth
0:05:21 > 0:05:25- or a resurrection, or... - I think there's no difference at all between a cult and a religion
0:05:25 > 0:05:29in terms of what it's doing for the members of those religious groups.
0:05:29 > 0:05:32- No difference? - No. The main... It's...
0:05:32 > 0:05:36People think a cult is something that's different from the norm,
0:05:36 > 0:05:40but what's one religion to judge another religion? It's about size.
0:05:40 > 0:05:43Size matters and I think it's about size,
0:05:43 > 0:05:46and as long as people aren't harming other people...
0:05:46 > 0:05:49I mean, that's another accusation that's made to cults -
0:05:49 > 0:05:51that they're harmful -
0:05:51 > 0:05:54but then, mainstream religions can be harmful.
0:05:54 > 0:05:56What about all the academic material?
0:05:56 > 0:06:00I'm referring to academic material because you're a member of the academic community
0:06:00 > 0:06:03that supports the argument
0:06:03 > 0:06:05that cults are using psychological coercion.
0:06:05 > 0:06:07We know what these techniques are,
0:06:07 > 0:06:10we know what the end result is and the impact on the human mind.
0:06:10 > 0:06:12- Ian, Ian.- Free choice is removed.
0:06:12 > 0:06:15One second. Are the Raelians dangerous?
0:06:15 > 0:06:17They represent a group about which we're very concerned
0:06:17 > 0:06:20and I would equate them with the Moonies.
0:06:20 > 0:06:22You mentioned the Jews for Jesus earlier
0:06:22 > 0:06:26and that I would see in a different category altogether and not a problem.
0:06:26 > 0:06:29But for legal reasons, I have to word things in a particular way
0:06:29 > 0:06:32because these groups have a tiresome habit of suing.
0:06:32 > 0:06:36- I was...- Could you say what the problem with Raelians is so that we understand why
0:06:36 > 0:06:38you have a concern about them?
0:06:38 > 0:06:39Em...
0:06:39 > 0:06:42- I have to... - Cos I know nothing about them!
0:06:42 > 0:06:45- I have to word things very carefully...- Of course.
0:06:45 > 0:06:48..because I might have to prove certain things I could say in a court of law.
0:06:48 > 0:06:51- But what is it...?- What I can say is that the same concerns
0:06:51 > 0:06:54that families have that call me when they have loved ones
0:06:54 > 0:06:57who've become involved in one of the groups
0:06:57 > 0:06:59about which we're concerned,
0:06:59 > 0:07:01in terms of those loved ones becoming alienated,
0:07:01 > 0:07:03changing for the worse and so on,
0:07:03 > 0:07:07are the same things we've heard about people who've become involved in the Raelians.
0:07:07 > 0:07:11- Can I interrupt?- I've talked to people who are ex-members and they take time to recover.
0:07:11 > 0:07:15What you're actually using there are psychological, manipulative techniques
0:07:15 > 0:07:17to turn the opinion of an audience against...
0:07:17 > 0:07:22- I don't expect you...- You're saying "I could offer information but I can't just in case,
0:07:22 > 0:07:26"but take it from me, I'm a scholar, that you and those people are bad."
0:07:26 > 0:07:29What you haven't done is say anything that's real,
0:07:29 > 0:07:32you've passed an opinion and used manipulative techniques to do that,
0:07:32 > 0:07:37and yet I'm sat here being honest with you.
0:07:37 > 0:07:39Be honest with me.
0:07:39 > 0:07:41Glenn, thank you. Ian. Rabbi in a minute.
0:07:41 > 0:07:45Let me talk about the group represented by our friend next door to you.
0:07:45 > 0:07:46The Unification Church?
0:07:46 > 0:07:50The Unification Church was involved in a landmark case in 1980.
0:07:50 > 0:07:54It finished up in the High Court where the Moonies sued the Daily Mail.
0:07:54 > 0:07:56The Daily Mail won the case.
0:07:56 > 0:07:58The Daily Mail had accused the Moonies
0:07:58 > 0:08:02of what it described as brainwashing and breaking up families,
0:08:02 > 0:08:04and it proved its case in the High Court.
0:08:04 > 0:08:08- GLENN: Brainwashing is impossible! - We're not talking about an academic debate here,
0:08:08 > 0:08:12- we're talking about something proven in the legal system... - OK, Simon.
0:08:12 > 0:08:14If we're going to go back in time a bit...
0:08:14 > 0:08:15One of the interesting things
0:08:15 > 0:08:18is Reverend Moon told the British leadership
0:08:18 > 0:08:22"Don't sue on this, it's a waste of time, it's not going to..."
0:08:22 > 0:08:23A mistake was made.
0:08:23 > 0:08:26We lost the court case, but, and then they got
0:08:26 > 0:08:30the government to set up a commission to investigate our charitable status,
0:08:30 > 0:08:34and they did way more work on that
0:08:34 > 0:08:37than they did on the court case, on the libel case.
0:08:37 > 0:08:41In their final conclusion there was no case to be had for our charitable status.
0:08:41 > 0:08:48Let me finish! I've forgotten who it was from the anti new religious movement...
0:08:48 > 0:08:51You won't say the C word, will you?
0:08:51 > 0:08:54..who spoke in the libel case,
0:08:54 > 0:08:57but certainly an MP made an apology in the House of Commons
0:08:57 > 0:09:00for what he said in the libel case about our movement,
0:09:00 > 0:09:06and interestingly enough, just about a couple of years ago, we buried the hatchet with the Daily Mail.
0:09:06 > 0:09:09We've buried the hatchet with a lot of media organisations
0:09:09 > 0:09:11that we've had a lot of misunderstanding with.
0:09:11 > 0:09:14I think new religious movements can be a bit like,
0:09:14 > 0:09:17a little bit obnoxious teenagers, sometimes -
0:09:17 > 0:09:21they're not very good at communicating everything they're trying to get across, but...
0:09:21 > 0:09:25All right. Listen, we'll come to you a little bit more later on, Simon. I want to investigate exactly
0:09:25 > 0:09:28what the difference is between a religion and a cult.
0:09:28 > 0:09:31- Aren't religions, Rabbi Schochet, just successful cults?- No.
0:09:31 > 0:09:32A religion in the first instance
0:09:32 > 0:09:35is predicated on the belief in a deity
0:09:35 > 0:09:37and a cult, in the first instance,
0:09:37 > 0:09:40is predicated usually on the belief in a particular man
0:09:40 > 0:09:44who concocted something which he then chose to define as a religion
0:09:44 > 0:09:48and invariably then preys on people, the vulnerable in particular,
0:09:48 > 0:09:50looks to lure them in.
0:09:50 > 0:09:52It's often about being able to create a certain kind of power,
0:09:52 > 0:09:55money base and whatever else besides.
0:09:55 > 0:09:59- FRANCESCA:- On that basis... - Let me just say this. That's the essential difference...
0:09:59 > 0:10:00Exactly the same!
0:10:00 > 0:10:05That's the essential difference between a religion and a cult.
0:10:05 > 0:10:07I'll only say this on that basis -
0:10:07 > 0:10:11I think it's wrong that you should have been discriminated against
0:10:11 > 0:10:13in your work on account of your personal beliefs,
0:10:13 > 0:10:17that shouldn't have happened, for whatever the reasons, fear or whatnot.
0:10:17 > 0:10:21My single issue with any cult or any person's individual belief,
0:10:21 > 0:10:24is when you go out there and you look to lure other people,
0:10:24 > 0:10:28whether out of other faiths or out of no faith,
0:10:28 > 0:10:30and get them to try and embrace your belief.
0:10:30 > 0:10:33- Did you believe the Jews... - So the Labour Party.
0:10:33 > 0:10:34Wait, wait!
0:10:34 > 0:10:37Like the Labour Party, he said. You believe the Jews for Jesus do this, don't you?
0:10:37 > 0:10:40Jews for Jesus do this in a very big way.
0:10:40 > 0:10:43- Jews for Jesus, that's you. - Jews for Jesus are a bunch of Jewish people
0:10:43 > 0:10:46who have come to see that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah.
0:10:46 > 0:10:48We believe as you all know, the classic Christian belief,
0:10:48 > 0:10:51that Jesus died for our sins, rose from the dead,
0:10:51 > 0:10:54this is what we believe, and we're like, "Who would I share this with?"
0:10:54 > 0:10:57I'd share it with my people, with other Jewish people just like me.
0:10:57 > 0:11:01I believe he's the Jewish Messiah, if somebody doesn't want to talk to me, I don't lure them.
0:11:01 > 0:11:05I stand on the street, I wear a big T-shirt so everyone knows exactly what I believe,
0:11:05 > 0:11:08and I say, "Hey, what do you think about Jesus?
0:11:08 > 0:11:11"If you don't want to talk, don't. If you want to talk, let's do that."
0:11:11 > 0:11:15But I don't stand on the street and stop, I don't know, vulnerable Christians
0:11:15 > 0:11:18or whoever else and say, "Hey, what do you think about Judaism?"
0:11:18 > 0:11:20I don't look to lure them into my faith.
0:11:20 > 0:11:25- That's your choice. - I grant you that, that's why I say anything that essentially takes away
0:11:25 > 0:11:28other people's critical thinking and particularly,
0:11:28 > 0:11:30and I know a lot about Jews for Jesus over the years,
0:11:30 > 0:11:32I've encountered so many of them,
0:11:32 > 0:11:36particularly those who are vulnerable and have their minds, if you like,
0:11:36 > 0:11:39ensnared in some kind of brainwashing technique.
0:11:39 > 0:11:43What's different about bringing up a child in your religion
0:11:43 > 0:11:46and the fact that they're born in that religion,
0:11:46 > 0:11:49they grow up in that religion, they know nothing else?
0:11:49 > 0:11:51In what way is their mind not ensnared, in a sense?
0:11:51 > 0:11:54They are always left with an open mind to be able,
0:11:54 > 0:11:56and there are many - sadly, if you like -
0:11:56 > 0:11:58Jews who walk away from their Jewish faith.
0:11:58 > 0:12:00I know again categorically
0:12:00 > 0:12:04that Jews for Jesus uses clear brainwashing techniques -
0:12:04 > 0:12:08befrienders, what have you, things that are done to ensnare them.
0:12:08 > 0:12:10You believe you've got good news, don't you?
0:12:10 > 0:12:14Yeah, I just hang out with people in coffee shops - Starbucks, Costa, these are my offices.
0:12:14 > 0:12:16This is why I hang out with people,
0:12:16 > 0:12:20I don't really use a technique other than, you know, the Bible, I suppose.
0:12:20 > 0:12:23- If the Bible's...- Jews for Jesus is a deceptive term.
0:12:23 > 0:12:27- Really?- That's one of the problems. - Why is it a deceptive term?
0:12:27 > 0:12:31Because to be Jewish you don't believe in Christ, OK?
0:12:31 > 0:12:33So Jews for Jesus is a deception
0:12:33 > 0:12:36that Jewish people can retain their Judaism
0:12:36 > 0:12:39while believing in Jesus Christ
0:12:39 > 0:12:42and they use many deceptive techniques.
0:12:42 > 0:12:46They have people that they say are rabbis who were never rabbis,
0:12:46 > 0:12:47and were never Jewish,
0:12:47 > 0:12:52and they target the Jewish community during vulnerable times such as Christmas
0:12:52 > 0:12:54when it's very alienating to be Jewish,
0:12:54 > 0:12:56it's like the entire world is Christian.
0:12:56 > 0:13:01They run advertisements at those times to reach people who might be in pain.
0:13:01 > 0:13:02Are they dangerous?
0:13:02 > 0:13:07Are they dangerous? They're dangerous to particular people if they alienate them
0:13:07 > 0:13:11from their families and if they are using a deceptive techniques.
0:13:11 > 0:13:16- If we ever use a deceptive technique, I'd love somebody to let me know.- The name, the name itself.
0:13:16 > 0:13:18OK, well, let me ask you this question.
0:13:18 > 0:13:21Jesus is Jewish. All the disciples were Jewish.
0:13:21 > 0:13:22If he IS the Jewish Messiah,
0:13:22 > 0:13:25what could be more Jewish than believing in Jesus?
0:13:25 > 0:13:27I mean, what could be more Jewish?
0:13:27 > 0:13:28APPLAUSE
0:13:28 > 0:13:32You disagree he's the Messiah. You disagree that he died to cover your failings, fine!
0:13:32 > 0:13:35- You need to give Rabbi Schochet a leaflet. - LAUGHTER
0:13:35 > 0:13:38Cristina, while we're on the subject of Jesus,
0:13:38 > 0:13:43I'd like to quote the Bible to you, a book of which you are a big fan.
0:13:43 > 0:13:48Jesus said, and this was Matthew - Chapter 10, Verse 37...
0:13:48 > 0:13:52"He that loveth father and mother more than me, is not worthy of me
0:13:52 > 0:13:56"and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."
0:13:56 > 0:14:00That's a pretty cultish message from Jesus, isn't it?
0:14:00 > 0:14:02The very interesting thing was,
0:14:02 > 0:14:07when I was looking at cults for a very different idea,
0:14:07 > 0:14:12I realised that the description of the classical cult
0:14:12 > 0:14:14is to have a charismatic leader...
0:14:14 > 0:14:16- Jesus.- Jesus. Who is...
0:14:16 > 0:14:18- Mohammed.- Mohammed.
0:14:18 > 0:14:23..who is saying to his followers,
0:14:23 > 0:14:27"This is a radical teaching and you've got to leave your family.
0:14:27 > 0:14:30"You've got to leave everything that feels comfortable and that you know.
0:14:30 > 0:14:36"And you must go forth and you will find that you are alienated from your surroundings."
0:14:36 > 0:14:40So all of that sounds like a cult or it sounds like a religion.
0:14:40 > 0:14:43But the thing that none of us has mentioned is values.
0:14:43 > 0:14:48What religion asks you to do is to live by
0:14:48 > 0:14:50your day-by-day values.
0:14:50 > 0:14:53Values that are transcendental...
0:14:53 > 0:14:55You know, ask yourself,
0:14:55 > 0:15:00when somebody says to you, "Are you a member of a cult or are you a member of a religion?"
0:15:00 > 0:15:02Ask yourself, "What do I do for others?"
0:15:02 > 0:15:03Cos that's what religion asks.
0:15:03 > 0:15:07What cults ask is, "What are you doing for me, your leader?
0:15:07 > 0:15:10"What are you doing for us, our little group?"
0:15:10 > 0:15:14Let me bring Francesca back, then I'll come to you Livingstone. Francesca, respond to that point.
0:15:14 > 0:15:18The difference, the clear difference that Cristina has identified.
0:15:18 > 0:15:22I think it's very hard to say that religions rather than cults ask,
0:15:22 > 0:15:24"What do you do for other people?"
0:15:24 > 0:15:26There are a lot of "cultic" movements
0:15:26 > 0:15:28that do an awful lot of charity work, for example.
0:15:28 > 0:15:30I don't think that's a fair distinction to draw.
0:15:30 > 0:15:33Charity is not... When talking about other people...
0:15:33 > 0:15:35The main point is about perceptions of damage
0:15:35 > 0:15:37and it's outside perceptions of damage
0:15:37 > 0:15:39versus inside perceptions of damage...
0:15:39 > 0:15:42- CRISTINA:- What d'you mean...? - I'm about to tell you.
0:15:42 > 0:15:45Is the person within this religious group being damaged somehow
0:15:45 > 0:15:48psychologically, physically, sexually?
0:15:48 > 0:15:51And you can't draw a distinction there either
0:15:51 > 0:15:52between a religion and a cult.
0:15:52 > 0:15:54For example, we all know that...
0:15:54 > 0:15:58It's people that are dangerous, not necessarily religions per se
0:15:58 > 0:16:00or cults per se.
0:16:00 > 0:16:01It's the people within them.
0:16:01 > 0:16:04If you've got someone on a power trip
0:16:04 > 0:16:06within a Christian church or a Jewish community,
0:16:06 > 0:16:08you may as well have a person
0:16:08 > 0:16:10who's on a power trip in any other kind of way.
0:16:10 > 0:16:12APPLAUSE
0:16:12 > 0:16:14In a minute. Cristina.
0:16:14 > 0:16:16Except that with a religion
0:16:16 > 0:16:19you have a much wider body which will rein in the power-crazed people.
0:16:19 > 0:16:22A religion and a cult, the main difference is size.
0:16:22 > 0:16:26- That's the main difference. - Not at all, not at all.
0:16:26 > 0:16:28Some cults are very small, as well.
0:16:28 > 0:16:31We had a clear thing there. The main difference is size.
0:16:31 > 0:16:33You'll all get a chance.
0:16:33 > 0:16:36It's a long programme on one topic, don't worry.
0:16:36 > 0:16:39But Livingstone's been trying to come in and I want to speak to him.
0:16:39 > 0:16:41I want everyone to hear his story.
0:16:41 > 0:16:44- Livingstone, you were at Waco? - That's correct.
0:16:44 > 0:16:50In that 51-day siege you lost members of your family in the fire,
0:16:50 > 0:16:53you then served 14 years for your role in defending...
0:16:53 > 0:16:55Well, actually we we're...
0:16:55 > 0:17:00David Koresh was the man defending his mission.
0:17:00 > 0:17:04You believed that he was a prophet. He saw an angel, didn't he?
0:17:04 > 0:17:07That's correct, on a visit to Jerusalem in 1985
0:17:07 > 0:17:14and that's how he came by the message that was the essence of our group,
0:17:14 > 0:17:17which takes me back to something that Cristina said.
0:17:17 > 0:17:20I understand the values part that you spoke of
0:17:20 > 0:17:22and we embrace those too.
0:17:22 > 0:17:28But it was the pursuit of the truth, the knowledge of God,
0:17:28 > 0:17:31that was the principal driving force.
0:17:31 > 0:17:34What was David Koresh like? Give us an idea.
0:17:34 > 0:17:36Well, much like you.
0:17:36 > 0:17:38LAUGHTER
0:17:38 > 0:17:40I doubt it.
0:17:40 > 0:17:44You don't play the guitar, that's the only difference, huh?
0:17:44 > 0:17:48They say these leaders are charismatic, these cult leaders are charismatic.
0:17:48 > 0:17:50- Not in the sense of those stereotypes.- No, OK.
0:17:50 > 0:17:54He's no different than your person who is sincerely trying to find God
0:17:54 > 0:18:01and you're putting your entire being in that effort.
0:18:01 > 0:18:05If that makes you charismatic, then, OK.
0:18:05 > 0:18:08OK, OK, but people followed him because the message was important?
0:18:08 > 0:18:11No, no, it's not HIM that was followed.
0:18:11 > 0:18:13- It's the message.- The truth. - The truth.
0:18:13 > 0:18:16The same truth that those who were there,
0:18:16 > 0:18:20the members who were there, was the same truth that David followed.
0:18:20 > 0:18:24David was merely the point of reference through which that truth was given,
0:18:24 > 0:18:28by reason of the fact that he had that initial experience
0:18:28 > 0:18:30by which the truth came.
0:18:30 > 0:18:32Now we can go into a dissection of that.
0:18:32 > 0:18:35From that, you get a better understanding of what David's about.
0:18:35 > 0:18:39You very much believe that message is as true now as it was then
0:18:39 > 0:18:41and it's an eternal truth, and we are in the end times?
0:18:41 > 0:18:43Indeed.
0:18:43 > 0:18:44You don't look back and say,
0:18:44 > 0:18:47"That was madness," you absolutely stand by everything?
0:18:47 > 0:18:49Absolutely.
0:18:49 > 0:18:50There is no reason for...
0:18:50 > 0:18:54As a matter of fact, the events that have unfolded since then, in the 20 years since Waco,
0:18:54 > 0:18:58have corroborated all that we held true.
0:18:58 > 0:19:01In terms of what's going on in the world right now
0:19:01 > 0:19:05and what is to come as a result of the events that are now unfolding.
0:19:05 > 0:19:10So it encompasses a world view that extends way into the future -
0:19:10 > 0:19:13the Messianic Kingdom that will go on for another thousand years
0:19:13 > 0:19:16and from then, we go into eternity itself.
0:19:16 > 0:19:20This is a hope. The hope for mankind in the present situation.
0:19:20 > 0:19:24Now, only as you can see it in the context of the truth that we held,
0:19:24 > 0:19:29can you really understand why the events of 1993
0:19:29 > 0:19:31turned out the way they did.
0:19:31 > 0:19:35Why did they have to separate themselves into a compound? Why was that necessary?
0:19:35 > 0:19:38Well, it's no different to going to a university.
0:19:38 > 0:19:41You're children come and they go and they go to university.
0:19:41 > 0:19:44Except that we're dealing with spiritual truths.
0:19:44 > 0:19:47What about the guns that were stockpiled at Waco?
0:19:47 > 0:19:49I understand. I knew you would come to that.
0:19:49 > 0:19:52It seems relevant. Why were the guns there?
0:19:52 > 0:19:56Well, for one, we were called that we would be attacked.
0:19:56 > 0:20:00So the objective of the guns was as a deterrent.
0:20:00 > 0:20:02Now, you've got to understand in the context...
0:20:02 > 0:20:05You were called that you'd be attacked?
0:20:05 > 0:20:08Well, part of our message dealt with prophecy.
0:20:08 > 0:20:10You were attacked by the agency because of the guns.
0:20:10 > 0:20:13Now called the Tobacco and Firearms Agency.
0:20:13 > 0:20:14That's what they said.
0:20:14 > 0:20:16David wasn't a very good prophet, was he?
0:20:16 > 0:20:18He couldn't prophesy what actually happened.
0:20:18 > 0:20:20- That's unfair.- But, in fairness...
0:20:20 > 0:20:22No, in fairness here, we're talking about...
0:20:22 > 0:20:24If you're going to make a statement like that
0:20:24 > 0:20:27and then just jump to something else, let me address it.
0:20:27 > 0:20:29When you say David was not a good prophet...
0:20:29 > 0:20:33I'm just picking up on a single issue that you mentioned.
0:20:33 > 0:20:35Most of this as far as I'm concerned, is irrelevant
0:20:35 > 0:20:38because I would fight for your right to believe
0:20:38 > 0:20:41whatever you choose as long as you choose it.
0:20:41 > 0:20:44The issue is, what is the difference between a cult and a religion?
0:20:44 > 0:20:46We're talking about the difference...
0:20:46 > 0:20:48Was this a cult?
0:20:48 > 0:20:52We're talking about a group there that was certainly of concern
0:20:52 > 0:20:55and I would have had the same concerns about it
0:20:55 > 0:20:57as I did at the time,
0:20:57 > 0:21:01as I do about the other groups that we've referred to earlier today.
0:21:01 > 0:21:05We're talking about a difference here between conversion
0:21:05 > 0:21:07and coercion.
0:21:07 > 0:21:11Rabbi, you talked about the problems associated with evangelism,
0:21:11 > 0:21:12and proselytising.
0:21:12 > 0:21:16My understanding is that the word "proselyte" meant someone who'd converted to Judaism originally,
0:21:16 > 0:21:19but that practice did cease by and large
0:21:19 > 0:21:22in the majority of the Jewish community a few hundred years ago.
0:21:22 > 0:21:26There are still some that do proselytise but only within the Jewish community.
0:21:26 > 0:21:31There's nothing wrong with proselytising, there's nothing wrong with sharing your perspective...
0:21:31 > 0:21:32Sharing the message.
0:21:32 > 0:21:35..and giving people a chance to exercise free choice.
0:21:35 > 0:21:37What we're concerned with is that cults
0:21:37 > 0:21:40remove free choice and do so very effectively
0:21:40 > 0:21:43through the use of techniques of psychological coercion.
0:21:43 > 0:21:46You keep using that phrase, "They remove your blah, blah, blah."
0:21:46 > 0:21:49The thing is, you don't actually know that.
0:21:49 > 0:21:51I mean, I run the Raelian movement in this country
0:21:51 > 0:21:55and we don't do anything other than what we're doing now, which is debate.
0:21:55 > 0:21:56We debate, and talk about ourselves
0:21:56 > 0:21:59and run campaigns against things like paedophilia,
0:21:59 > 0:22:02against bad behaviour and the oppression of human beings,
0:22:02 > 0:22:04and yet you're sat there saying that
0:22:04 > 0:22:06we're concerned about groups like this.
0:22:06 > 0:22:09I'm concerned about you and I could just as easily
0:22:09 > 0:22:12cast aspersions over your good name by saying I've heard things about you
0:22:12 > 0:22:15that I'm not prepared to say in this programme,
0:22:15 > 0:22:17but I've heard things about your sexual habits.
0:22:19 > 0:22:20What I'm saying is, those things...
0:22:20 > 0:22:23That's outrageous to say something like that.
0:22:23 > 0:22:26What I'm saying is, those things are easy to say,
0:22:26 > 0:22:29they're not very easy to back up.
0:22:29 > 0:22:30That is exactly the technique...
0:22:30 > 0:22:35It is very easy to back up the whole issue that cults use psychological coercion.
0:22:35 > 0:22:38That is exactly the technique that you are using over my philosophy.
0:22:38 > 0:22:40Professor.
0:22:40 > 0:22:44Wait a minute, Professor. We have - without casting any more aspersions about each other -
0:22:44 > 0:22:49Professor, we have something really fascinating there from Livingstone.
0:22:49 > 0:22:53It was all about truth. This is the truth.
0:22:53 > 0:22:56And is there something in that that various groups,
0:22:56 > 0:22:58whether they be a religion or a cult,
0:22:58 > 0:23:03we can get the situation where they think they have a monopoly on the truth?
0:23:03 > 0:23:04That's what we're getting at.
0:23:04 > 0:23:06One second, let's get Professor on this.
0:23:06 > 0:23:10Well, most of the time I would say that all organisations
0:23:10 > 0:23:13have the propensity to be manipulative or to damage people
0:23:13 > 0:23:19and it's about organisational practices, not about beliefs.
0:23:19 > 0:23:20Groups are on a continuum,
0:23:20 > 0:23:24not all of them end up with mass suicides, thankfully,
0:23:24 > 0:23:26not all organisations,
0:23:26 > 0:23:31but the fact is that on occasions the belief system, if it does take over people psychologically,
0:23:31 > 0:23:34and there is evidence for that in the literature...
0:23:34 > 0:23:36It doesn't happen in all religious groups,
0:23:36 > 0:23:39it doesn't happen in all groups that are on the cultic spectrum,
0:23:39 > 0:23:41but when it does happen, as with the Branch Davidians,
0:23:41 > 0:23:45- it can have catastrophic effects on individuals... - I've got to address...
0:23:45 > 0:23:48There's a statement that Christ made 2000 years ago.
0:23:48 > 0:23:50I and the Father are one.
0:23:50 > 0:23:55In the pursuit of truth and of God, it is designed to bring us
0:23:55 > 0:24:00into a being or a state of being that is in harmony with the Divine.
0:24:00 > 0:24:03Now if the world and everything about the world
0:24:03 > 0:24:05is out of kilter with God,
0:24:05 > 0:24:08then obviously those who pursue that
0:24:08 > 0:24:12are going to seem by the world to be...different.
0:24:12 > 0:24:18Francesca, are the problems here inherent in people taking things in the Bible literally?
0:24:18 > 0:24:22With every respect to Livingstone,
0:24:22 > 0:24:25Revelations is the true word of God as far as he's concerned.
0:24:25 > 0:24:29Yeah, I mean, I think the point about monopoly is right...
0:24:29 > 0:24:30- On truth?- Exactly.
0:24:30 > 0:24:33Some people think they have an exclusive access
0:24:33 > 0:24:36to this divine truth that's revealed in the Bible,
0:24:36 > 0:24:39but the Bible is a very contradictory collection of texts.
0:24:39 > 0:24:42Francesca, I don't believe you believe that.
0:24:42 > 0:24:45- I do believe that! - I don't believe you.
0:24:45 > 0:24:48- She's an academic.- I know what I'm talking about.- That's problematic!
0:24:48 > 0:24:51THEY LAUGH That's problematic.
0:24:51 > 0:24:53- Cole Moreton... - I feel sorry for you.
0:24:53 > 0:24:57Cole Moreton, isn't it fascinating hearing Livingstone?
0:24:57 > 0:25:00- It really is. It's fairly clear... - From a guy who was at Waco?
0:25:00 > 0:25:05I'd be fascinated to spend an hour talking to Livingstone on his own
0:25:05 > 0:25:07about what happened at Waco and the ramifications of that.
0:25:07 > 0:25:11I think what's really interesting in the wider debate here
0:25:11 > 0:25:13is that we're in a culture at the moment,
0:25:13 > 0:25:16a society where people on the whole, en masse, have said,
0:25:16 > 0:25:19"We don't want to belong, we don't want to be part of an organisation.
0:25:19 > 0:25:23"Even the Church of England, which is about as mild as it gets in the religious spectrum,
0:25:23 > 0:25:25"we don't want to be part of that"
0:25:25 > 0:25:27and yet within that circle,
0:25:27 > 0:25:30there are groups that are getting bigger and bigger
0:25:30 > 0:25:31because they're preaching certainty
0:25:31 > 0:25:36and the ones that are attracting the most attention are the ones that are absolutely giving you certainty.
0:25:36 > 0:25:39Now I understand that, because as a teenager I embraced a group
0:25:39 > 0:25:41that was absolutely about certainty,
0:25:41 > 0:25:44and some days I'm nostalgic for it, frankly.
0:25:44 > 0:25:47I wish I could go back and know exactly who I was and what I was trying to do.
0:25:47 > 0:25:50That was a missionary group. What's missing? What's lacking?
0:25:50 > 0:25:53You wake up in the morning and you know exactly what you're doing,
0:25:53 > 0:25:56where you're going, what you believe in and what you're meant to do about it.
0:25:56 > 0:26:01That's tremendously liberating actually. And I'm nostalgic for it.
0:26:01 > 0:26:05I don't believe many of the things upon which that was based at the time,
0:26:05 > 0:26:07but I'm nostalgic for the sense of purpose.
0:26:07 > 0:26:10You could say that about some of the great monotheistic religions -
0:26:10 > 0:26:15the precepts are laid out, you know what to do and how to do it. Francesca, you're nodding.
0:26:15 > 0:26:16Yeah, absolutely.
0:26:16 > 0:26:18It's not really that easy. I mean...
0:26:18 > 0:26:22I've got a faith with absolutes in it and there's a theology around it,
0:26:22 > 0:26:26but I don't wake up every morning feeling completely purposeful.
0:26:26 > 0:26:30- And I think...- Perhaps you ought to look for another one, then.
0:26:30 > 0:26:31LAUGHTER
0:26:31 > 0:26:34Well, can I answer that?
0:26:34 > 0:26:36- Can I answer that?- Of course you can.
0:26:36 > 0:26:40I just signed up for a course at...
0:26:40 > 0:26:44Holy Trinity Brompton's theology course.
0:26:44 > 0:26:49I am a Pastor. I've got a congregation of 165 people.
0:26:49 > 0:26:51For the Unification Church of...
0:26:51 > 0:26:55I haven't got any formal theological training...
0:26:55 > 0:26:59I can see a lot of the things that the established Church has done
0:26:59 > 0:27:00and is doing,
0:27:00 > 0:27:02are things that I don't have in my organisation
0:27:02 > 0:27:06and I think there's a lot for us to learn from the established faiths,
0:27:06 > 0:27:09and there's things the established faiths can learn from newer faiths.
0:27:09 > 0:27:13You know, we're sitting here, like, in the Houses of Parliament,
0:27:13 > 0:27:16with a line down the middle,
0:27:16 > 0:27:19and I think a personal relationship with God
0:27:19 > 0:27:22is too precious and important
0:27:22 > 0:27:25for us to start playing power politics with his name.
0:27:25 > 0:27:26You talk about power politics.
0:27:26 > 0:27:28I hope you won't think me impertinent,
0:27:28 > 0:27:32but the Reverend Moon is being accused - your founder - of being the ultimate power junkie,
0:27:32 > 0:27:35because he became a very...
0:27:35 > 0:27:38He saw God, he saw Jesus or was it an angel?
0:27:38 > 0:27:41He had a personal experience of Jesus around Easter
0:27:41 > 0:27:44when he was a Sunday School teacher, as a teenager.
0:27:44 > 0:27:45And Jesus told him the truth,
0:27:45 > 0:27:48that he had to relay to the rest of the world...
0:27:48 > 0:27:51He had a conversation with him and from that,
0:27:51 > 0:27:52various revelations came out.
0:27:52 > 0:27:56From those revelations, he became a very wealthy man, didn't he?
0:27:56 > 0:27:58Em, well, the movement's a big worldwide movement,
0:27:58 > 0:28:01he's personally not a person of wealth, I don't think, no.
0:28:01 > 0:28:04That's... That's one of the...
0:28:04 > 0:28:07The Archbishop of Canterbury is much richer
0:28:07 > 0:28:10in terms of the body and size of his organisation,
0:28:10 > 0:28:11so I think that's a really unfair...
0:28:11 > 0:28:14When he had children - the Reverend Moon and his wife -
0:28:14 > 0:28:18his children were the first ever to be born without original sin, is that right?
0:28:18 > 0:28:21GIGGLING IN AUDIENCE
0:28:21 > 0:28:23I mean, I didn't come on the programme
0:28:23 > 0:28:25to have people sit behind me sniggering.
0:28:25 > 0:28:29People need to understand the beliefs.
0:28:29 > 0:28:32- You know... - Answer the question, then.
0:28:32 > 0:28:35His children were the first to be born ever without original sin.
0:28:35 > 0:28:38- We have a theology... - Three of them committed suicide.
0:28:38 > 0:28:41- Three of the kids committed suicide? - We have a theology
0:28:41 > 0:28:44about the message that he got from Jesus.
0:28:44 > 0:28:47Jesus asked him to continue his work,
0:28:47 > 0:28:51that he went on a path - if you want to study it you can study it -
0:28:51 > 0:28:54that was an incredible path, and he has a vision
0:28:54 > 0:28:56to create the family that was lost...
0:28:56 > 0:28:59Children who are without original sin and he kicked that off.
0:28:59 > 0:29:02But children, you know, people have their own responsibility.
0:29:02 > 0:29:05His children are far from perfect, there's been lots of mistakes
0:29:05 > 0:29:08and our movement is far from perfect.
0:29:08 > 0:29:11I don't hold my movement up to be the answer to,
0:29:11 > 0:29:13you know, world salvation,
0:29:13 > 0:29:16but I think our faith has a lot to contribute
0:29:16 > 0:29:19and I think if we could get away from a bit of the antagonism,
0:29:19 > 0:29:23if I could have a bit of time in Starbucks with Ian,
0:29:23 > 0:29:25like our friend over here does with his friends...
0:29:25 > 0:29:28- You're on, we'll meet.- OK.
0:29:28 > 0:29:31I've been leading, the last four years, the Unification movement in the UK
0:29:31 > 0:29:34and one of my main policies has been transparency.
0:29:34 > 0:29:36I've put all our accounts up on the web,
0:29:36 > 0:29:38I've put my own wage up there,
0:29:38 > 0:29:40I've put all the things that...
0:29:40 > 0:29:44And I think if we get a bit more transparent with each other
0:29:44 > 0:29:46and really know what each other's lives are like...
0:29:46 > 0:29:50You know, when I walked into church this morning, the girl from my music team
0:29:50 > 0:29:54told me about an illness her father has, er, and...
0:29:54 > 0:29:57cos I could see she wasn't happy...
0:29:57 > 0:30:00That's what real people in real religions are dealing with.
0:30:00 > 0:30:04Communities, families, helping people to grow,
0:30:04 > 0:30:07helping people to change their lives so that they can be happier...
0:30:07 > 0:30:09Does that extend to a duty of care
0:30:09 > 0:30:12to every single member of your organisation?
0:30:12 > 0:30:15Like Ian, I have spoken to countless ex-members
0:30:15 > 0:30:17of the Unification Church or movement,
0:30:17 > 0:30:19who talk of being isolated from their families,
0:30:19 > 0:30:22talk about the way in which the church took over their lives,
0:30:22 > 0:30:25the fact that if they try and leave, people try and...
0:30:25 > 0:30:29- When was this?- Well, countless examples, over many decades.
0:30:29 > 0:30:31In the last 10, 20 years?
0:30:31 > 0:30:32Yes, absolutely.
0:30:32 > 0:30:35If you're saying your movement's reforming, that's a great thing.
0:30:35 > 0:30:37- If you're looking after your members.- It is.
0:30:37 > 0:30:41In that case, would you allow psychologists such as myself to work with your church...
0:30:41 > 0:30:42I'd love it, I'd love it.
0:30:42 > 0:30:48..to test whether members are actually functioning healthily like all organisations...
0:30:48 > 0:30:50I will come to you in a minute, Livingstone.
0:30:50 > 0:30:52That offer's been accepted. Let's hear from other people.
0:30:52 > 0:30:55Gentleman at the back, what would you like to say?
0:30:55 > 0:30:58One of the things I've noticed, I'm an atheist,
0:30:58 > 0:31:00but I saw a quote by Buddha
0:31:00 > 0:31:02and it would deal with all the cults hands down.
0:31:02 > 0:31:05It says, "Do not believe anything because you see it,
0:31:05 > 0:31:08"because you read it in a religious book,
0:31:08 > 0:31:13"because religious teachers say so, and includes 'because I say so.' "
0:31:13 > 0:31:15In other words, Buddha said,
0:31:15 > 0:31:18"If I say something stupid, it's stupid.
0:31:18 > 0:31:23"Do not follow ANYTHING, always use your own common sense,
0:31:23 > 0:31:25"your own reason,
0:31:25 > 0:31:27"your own sense of fairness. Do not believe anything,"
0:31:27 > 0:31:30and in regards to truth, well, there's a TV show,
0:31:30 > 0:31:32it's called Myth Busters,
0:31:32 > 0:31:34where they go and test out things like...
0:31:34 > 0:31:36Can a mouse scare an elephant?
0:31:36 > 0:31:38Get an elephant, get a mouse
0:31:38 > 0:31:42and go prove every single thing you SAY, once and for all.
0:31:42 > 0:31:44So there's no accepted truths.
0:31:44 > 0:31:47It's the same as don't smoke, because all your friends do.
0:31:47 > 0:31:50It's the same principle with religions, and like you said,
0:31:50 > 0:31:53it's just a case of size, or is the leader dead or not?
0:31:53 > 0:31:55Thank you. Yes, sir?
0:31:55 > 0:31:57As a Muslim,
0:31:57 > 0:32:01we define religion as...
0:32:01 > 0:32:03I meant, like the Rabbi did say,
0:32:03 > 0:32:07around the creator.
0:32:07 > 0:32:13This creator is everlasting, he has no beginning, he has no end.
0:32:13 > 0:32:16He is the creator of everything in existence.
0:32:16 > 0:32:19- Do you think Islam started as a cult?- No.
0:32:19 > 0:32:21It wouldn't have because before Islam,
0:32:21 > 0:32:24there were other religions before Islam.
0:32:24 > 0:32:26- Do you think it started as a cult? - No, I don't.
0:32:26 > 0:32:29You know that only two years ago the Governor of Tennessee
0:32:29 > 0:32:32was trying to brand Muslims as part of a cult.
0:32:32 > 0:32:37And I think that what we haven't discussed yet is how threatened
0:32:37 > 0:32:40organised religions and atheists like Francesca,
0:32:40 > 0:32:43feel by new religions.
0:32:43 > 0:32:45Why do they feel threatened?
0:32:45 > 0:32:49They feel threatened because things are really askew as you put it.
0:32:49 > 0:32:53The economy's in a total state of collapse,
0:32:53 > 0:32:55global economy is doing badly,
0:32:55 > 0:32:58people are without work, people are without hope,
0:32:58 > 0:33:04and we are latching on to anything that offers spiritual guidance.
0:33:04 > 0:33:06OK, gentleman here.
0:33:06 > 0:33:08I want to talk to Livingstone about Branch Davidians.
0:33:08 > 0:33:12One thing you forgot to mention was the sexual abuse that went on in Waco.
0:33:12 > 0:33:15I mean, David Koresh would come down and talk to his congregation
0:33:15 > 0:33:18about the young children he'd sexually abused that day.
0:33:18 > 0:33:21I don't know how you can condone that.
0:33:21 > 0:33:22Your name is?
0:33:22 > 0:33:24I don't have to tell you my name.
0:33:24 > 0:33:28It's on the record, Livingstone. He sexually abused children at Waco.
0:33:28 > 0:33:32I don't know how you can still say you're a Branch Davidian.
0:33:32 > 0:33:34- Livingstone.- Nicky, I didn't really come here for that.
0:33:34 > 0:33:36I didn't know he was going to say it.
0:33:36 > 0:33:41- That's the problem. You didn't come here for that.- Let me finish.
0:33:41 > 0:33:43He has one man who says what he heard from Jesus,
0:33:43 > 0:33:45you've got another man who heard what he heard from Jesus,
0:33:45 > 0:33:48he's got another man with his own interpretation from Jesus.
0:33:48 > 0:33:53- Will the real one please stand up? - IAN:- That's why we need to look at the methodology...
0:33:53 > 0:33:54Livingstone.
0:33:54 > 0:33:56- I wanted to come back...- Please.
0:33:56 > 0:33:58..to the issue of cults and religion.
0:33:58 > 0:34:03I understand what you're saying and I understand how you might even perceive that.
0:34:03 > 0:34:06But it's not as you perceive it. And here's the thing.
0:34:06 > 0:34:11Did you question the person that put that in your mind?
0:34:11 > 0:34:14- You're telling me sexual abuse didn't go on, in Waco?- No, no.
0:34:14 > 0:34:17I'm not trying to tell you that, what I'm trying to say to you...
0:34:17 > 0:34:18You know it went on there.
0:34:18 > 0:34:22- Livingstone, let me ask you, did sexual abuse go on at Waco?- No.
0:34:22 > 0:34:23- No?- No.
0:34:23 > 0:34:25- Look me in the eye and say that- No.
0:34:25 > 0:34:26OK.
0:34:26 > 0:34:29- Now let me finish.- There were several witnesses.- Hold on.
0:34:29 > 0:34:32I don't necessarily believe it, but he looked me in the eye and said it.
0:34:32 > 0:34:35Did you question the persons that put that in your mind?
0:34:35 > 0:34:37There are several witnesses to it.
0:34:37 > 0:34:41David Koresh would regularly sexually abuse young children at Waco
0:34:41 > 0:34:44and he would come down to his congregation and he would talk about it.
0:34:44 > 0:34:47He said he was justified to do it because of his religion.
0:34:47 > 0:34:50When David Koresh actually presents that with you, to you,
0:34:50 > 0:34:52and it turns out that your belief was incorrect...
0:34:52 > 0:34:56- He can't, he's dead.- No, no, wait a minute, wait a minute. Wait a minute.
0:34:56 > 0:34:59When he actually presents that to you,
0:34:59 > 0:35:01and it turns out that your belief was incorrect,
0:35:01 > 0:35:04are you prepared to take the consequences for that?
0:35:04 > 0:35:05Yes, it's on FBI records.
0:35:05 > 0:35:07That's all I'm here to find.
0:35:07 > 0:35:11Listen, the accusations... Let me say this,
0:35:11 > 0:35:15you absolutely believe this gentleman will have to take the consequences of saying that
0:35:15 > 0:35:18about a man who was sent as a prophet from God, that's fascinating.
0:35:18 > 0:35:23Sexual abuse is often seen, and sexual exploitation,
0:35:23 > 0:35:27as at the very heart of many of these movements,
0:35:27 > 0:35:28these new religions,
0:35:28 > 0:35:32or some of them that have been referred to as cults by some people.
0:35:32 > 0:35:34And Juliana, growing up in the Children of God,
0:35:34 > 0:35:37you went through hell, didn't you?
0:35:37 > 0:35:38Yes.
0:35:38 > 0:35:40I just want to take you back to the whole question
0:35:40 > 0:35:42that we're actually here to discuss,
0:35:42 > 0:35:45which is the difference between cult and the new religious movement.
0:35:45 > 0:35:47Before that, for people who don't know,
0:35:47 > 0:35:49cos you know everything about the Children of God,
0:35:49 > 0:35:51- you were born into the Children of God.- Yes.
0:35:51 > 0:35:53Many at home might not be so well acquainted.
0:35:53 > 0:35:57David Berg, another man who saw Jesus, or was visited by an angel...
0:35:57 > 0:35:58It's the standard fare.
0:35:58 > 0:36:00They all think they are the mouthpiece of God
0:36:00 > 0:36:03and they all have a handle on the Almighty's will,
0:36:03 > 0:36:08and everybody sort of follows him as the figurehead of God
0:36:08 > 0:36:11- and so, you know, with that... - And there was a lot of child abuse in the movement.
0:36:11 > 0:36:13There was, but, you know,
0:36:13 > 0:36:16it's not something that people go into thinking,
0:36:16 > 0:36:19"OK, I'm going to join a cult, I'm going to abuse children,
0:36:19 > 0:36:20"I'm going to do this and this."
0:36:20 > 0:36:23It's a steady conditioning that happens over a period of time.
0:36:23 > 0:36:27I think there's a lot of scientific and psychological studies
0:36:27 > 0:36:30that have been done on the effects of groupthink,
0:36:30 > 0:36:32of when people are put into an isolated environment
0:36:32 > 0:36:35with extremist ideas or beliefs,
0:36:35 > 0:36:38what is possible for a normal human being to do to another human being.
0:36:38 > 0:36:42I think everybody knows the standard,
0:36:42 > 0:36:47the Stanford Prison Test or the Milgram's Obedience Test,
0:36:47 > 0:36:49even Nazi Germany,
0:36:49 > 0:36:52you know, what happened on a massive scale to an entire race of people,
0:36:52 > 0:36:56but they were doctors who were slaughtering children,
0:36:56 > 0:36:59they were, you know, people who would normally be in the caring professions.
0:36:59 > 0:37:03It can happen to anyone, but the problem as I see it
0:37:03 > 0:37:06is that there's so much hair-splitting over this idea that
0:37:06 > 0:37:12"Oh, are they a new religious movement? What should we call them? A cult? A high demand organisation?"
0:37:12 > 0:37:15It's drawing attention away from the bigger issue
0:37:15 > 0:37:17which is, we need to look at
0:37:17 > 0:37:21the effects of what their belief system...
0:37:21 > 0:37:25Are they harming people, are they harming other people in the group?
0:37:25 > 0:37:27Are they taking away people's liberty?
0:37:30 > 0:37:33Are they controlling people's information?
0:37:33 > 0:37:34Are they keeping people within...?
0:37:34 > 0:37:37How old were you when you thought, "This is wrong?"
0:37:37 > 0:37:40I honestly never believed, I was never a believer.
0:37:40 > 0:37:42I never considered myself a member.
0:37:42 > 0:37:45I was born into it without choice and this is...
0:37:45 > 0:37:48There's a large demographic of children around the world born into these groups
0:37:48 > 0:37:52who aren't given a full picture of the world...
0:37:52 > 0:37:55When you saw that sexual abuse around you...
0:37:55 > 0:37:58As you grew up and it happened to you,
0:37:58 > 0:38:02why didn't you go to the authorities, were you a prisoner?
0:38:02 > 0:38:05Well, yeah, you're kept within a compound, very much like Waco
0:38:05 > 0:38:08- where you're behind walls. - No, not very much like Waco.
0:38:08 > 0:38:09- How do you know?- I was there!
0:38:09 > 0:38:13I was in mine, and you know, David Berg glorified David Koresh
0:38:13 > 0:38:15and called you all martyrs.
0:38:15 > 0:38:16Sure, sure.
0:38:16 > 0:38:18David Berg called them martyrs?
0:38:18 > 0:38:21And he said that we probably would suffer a similar fate as you.
0:38:21 > 0:38:23I think this is key, actually.
0:38:23 > 0:38:26What about the attitude to people in the Children of God to those who were not?
0:38:26 > 0:38:29In other words, the rest of us.
0:38:29 > 0:38:32Within these groups it's very much an "us versus them" mentality,
0:38:32 > 0:38:36so, you know, you feel justified in feeling superior to everybody else
0:38:36 > 0:38:38cos you have the truth and the answer.
0:38:38 > 0:38:41- What did you call people who were not in the movement?- Systemites.
0:38:41 > 0:38:42- Systemites?- Yeah.
0:38:42 > 0:38:44The police were called Romans
0:38:44 > 0:38:49and people who we thought we could convert into the group
0:38:49 > 0:38:53were called Sheep, which is interesting because in society there's the sheep
0:38:53 > 0:38:54and there's the shepherds.
0:38:54 > 0:38:57There's the followers and there's the leader.
0:38:57 > 0:38:59There's the controlled and there's the controlling.
0:38:59 > 0:39:02- I'm sorry what was her name? - Juliana.- Juliana.
0:39:02 > 0:39:06Juliana. What you've explained there, and what you experienced,
0:39:06 > 0:39:08and I hope it hasn't had too negative an effect on you...
0:39:08 > 0:39:11- Not at all.- OK!
0:39:11 > 0:39:14That does not characterise Waco.
0:39:16 > 0:39:20That does not reflect how things were with us.
0:39:20 > 0:39:24I don't know the exact dynamics of what went on, but that's not my point.
0:39:24 > 0:39:26You made a comment.
0:39:26 > 0:39:29How has it affected you?
0:39:29 > 0:39:32OK, for me, it's been a journey towards
0:39:32 > 0:39:34what I believe in my own person,
0:39:34 > 0:39:38but I know that other kids from my social dynamic
0:39:38 > 0:39:41have struggled much more than I did.
0:39:41 > 0:39:43There's a very high suicide rate.
0:39:43 > 0:39:46Just in the first two months of this year,
0:39:46 > 0:39:49there was four suicides from my group, the youngest being 16.
0:39:49 > 0:39:53They have a very difficult time adjusting into society
0:39:53 > 0:39:54when they leave.
0:39:54 > 0:39:57They're not given the mechanisms to adapt into society.
0:39:57 > 0:39:59They're generally not given a good education,
0:39:59 > 0:40:02certainly not a formal one that they can get a job with.
0:40:02 > 0:40:05They're often denied medical care.
0:40:05 > 0:40:09There's a whole environment where there's not enough
0:40:09 > 0:40:11of the transparency within these groups.
0:40:11 > 0:40:14There are no child protection policies in these groups
0:40:14 > 0:40:17and this is where harm can happen.
0:40:17 > 0:40:18You have survived.
0:40:18 > 0:40:21Can we not just lump all of these groups together, cos I mean...?
0:40:21 > 0:40:25Half of my congregation, they're all across the park at Imperial College.
0:40:25 > 0:40:31Everyone's moved out of living in missionary centres.
0:40:31 > 0:40:32Everyone's got their own house,
0:40:32 > 0:40:36they've got a job, they work for a bank, they're a bus driver...
0:40:36 > 0:40:40- Exactly the same in the Raelian movement.- This is why I don't believe we should be lumped together,
0:40:40 > 0:40:43we need to look at the effects of particular groups,
0:40:43 > 0:40:45what is happening with them...
0:40:45 > 0:40:48You can't say that all of them are harmful or negative.
0:40:48 > 0:40:49Ian Haworth.
0:40:49 > 0:40:52This issue of sexual abuse has come up.
0:40:52 > 0:40:56Juliana has talked about that in the group she was in.
0:40:56 > 0:40:59I actually challenged a member, a leader actually of that group,
0:40:59 > 0:41:01the Children of God,
0:41:01 > 0:41:02about the sexual abuse
0:41:02 > 0:41:04and he said, "Oh, there's no sexual abuse here."
0:41:04 > 0:41:09Another ex-member said later, "Well, of course, because we didn't define it as abuse.
0:41:09 > 0:41:12"We said if we were having sexual relations with children,
0:41:12 > 0:41:15"that was done in love and therefore it wasn't abuse."
0:41:15 > 0:41:16I find this important.
0:41:16 > 0:41:20Rabbi Schochet, what have the bad effects been, psychologically...
0:41:20 > 0:41:22The brain is a very vulnerable organ, isn't it?
0:41:22 > 0:41:24It is indeed. Let's be very clear.
0:41:24 > 0:41:28There's a lot of banter here about having the monopoly on truth.
0:41:28 > 0:41:31In essence, logically, rationally,
0:41:31 > 0:41:33if you belong to any particular faith,
0:41:33 > 0:41:36you have to obviously believe that that is absolute truth,
0:41:36 > 0:41:37to the exclusion of all others,
0:41:37 > 0:41:41otherwise you have no business believing in that faith in the first instance.
0:41:41 > 0:41:45The problem is when it spills over into excess,
0:41:45 > 0:41:49such that you then have disregard for people of other faiths,
0:41:49 > 0:41:52and say, that if you're not a member of my faith,
0:41:52 > 0:41:55then you are just not a good human being, you serve no purpose in life.
0:41:55 > 0:41:57That's where it all goes wrong.
0:41:57 > 0:41:59Essentially, if you go around over here amongst the front row,
0:41:59 > 0:42:02when they're sitting in Waco as far as they're concerned,
0:42:02 > 0:42:05unless I embrace that way of life, then essentially I'm damned to hell.
0:42:05 > 0:42:08Frankly, as far as he's concerned if I don't embrace Jesus,
0:42:08 > 0:42:09I'm damned to hell as well.
0:42:09 > 0:42:12That's where there's the problem.
0:42:12 > 0:42:14Is he damned to hell? He says you're not.
0:42:14 > 0:42:16- It's...- You don't believe in the New Testament.
0:42:16 > 0:42:18I do, hang on a second. >
0:42:18 > 0:42:22The thing is we all must recognise and this is where we start,
0:42:22 > 0:42:26we all have to recognise we all fail, we're all messed up people,
0:42:26 > 0:42:28none of us are perfect, right?
0:42:28 > 0:42:29Now I believe that the only way
0:42:29 > 0:42:32of having those failures covered over...
0:42:32 > 0:42:33The only way?
0:42:33 > 0:42:35Yeah, the only way is through Jesus. Right?
0:42:35 > 0:42:38But I don't believe that Jesus is going to send me to hell if I don't believe in him.
0:42:38 > 0:42:44Answer the question. If I don't embrace Jesus, what's my destiny?
0:42:44 > 0:42:48If you continue living the life that you live, like anyone else...
0:42:48 > 0:42:50This dissolute, sinful life that you live?
0:42:50 > 0:42:51But all of us...
0:42:51 > 0:42:53I've seen you drinking whisky.
0:42:53 > 0:42:55And it was good too!
0:42:55 > 0:42:57And I am just as messed up,
0:42:57 > 0:42:59probably more messed up than the Rabbi, right?
0:42:59 > 0:43:00In my life.
0:43:00 > 0:43:04But the problem is I think that God sent out this way of mercy.
0:43:04 > 0:43:09So it's not God that actually sends me to condemnation, I send myself.
0:43:09 > 0:43:10You didn't answer my question.
0:43:10 > 0:43:11And God's the one that saves.
0:43:11 > 0:43:14Livingstone's going to answer your question,
0:43:14 > 0:43:17then we're going to move onto a comparatively new religion,
0:43:17 > 0:43:20which calls itself a church but is nothing to do with God.
0:43:20 > 0:43:23Answers on a postcard. That's just in a minute.
0:43:23 > 0:43:27Rabbi Schochet, that judgment is left to God.
0:43:28 > 0:43:31Not to him, not to me, not to any other human being.
0:43:31 > 0:43:34Even Christ says, remember Matthew 7?
0:43:34 > 0:43:36"Judge not, lest you be judged.
0:43:36 > 0:43:39"For whatever judgment you make, be made to you."
0:43:39 > 0:43:43Or is it left to your subjective interpretation of what God said?
0:43:43 > 0:43:46Which can be very different to his subjective interpretation.
0:43:46 > 0:43:50You judge my interpretation to be subjective?
0:43:50 > 0:43:52That's your judgment of me.
0:43:52 > 0:43:55That's why every movement and every cult and every religion
0:43:55 > 0:43:57should be held up to scrutiny
0:43:57 > 0:43:59and if there's objective criteria
0:43:59 > 0:44:02by which to determine the authenticity of the faith, then great.
0:44:02 > 0:44:04If not, it falls down.
0:44:04 > 0:44:06I agree with you, I agree with you.
0:44:06 > 0:44:09Wait a minute, everybody.
0:44:09 > 0:44:14Let's move on, let's move on now. I'll get a chance to come back to you, hopefully.
0:44:14 > 0:44:16Right, OK. If not in this life, in the next.
0:44:16 > 0:44:18- John...- You'll wait a long time.
0:44:18 > 0:44:20- NICKY LAUGHS - I know that, Glenn.
0:44:20 > 0:44:23John, former Scientologist. Right.
0:44:23 > 0:44:26What's the leaving like?
0:44:26 > 0:44:30It's a very baffling experience, particularly,
0:44:30 > 0:44:33and I think this may be something that defines a cult,
0:44:33 > 0:44:36because of the attack that you receive from the group.
0:44:36 > 0:44:40Because when you're expelled you're shunned, you're disconnected.
0:44:40 > 0:44:44- APPLAUSE - Now, let's just make it clear...
0:44:44 > 0:44:46And if the Raelians don't do that, Glenn, then that's great.
0:44:46 > 0:44:52We're not generalising, we're talking about this particular group.
0:44:52 > 0:44:56And that's perfect. But I think what's not clear from what I'm hearing,
0:44:56 > 0:45:00is people are saying here, what's happening with cults is this and this and this,
0:45:00 > 0:45:03but I'm classed, in this meeting, as a cult. I'm telling you now...
0:45:03 > 0:45:07We are identifying problematic techniques that are sometimes used,
0:45:07 > 0:45:08and let's further explore those.
0:45:08 > 0:45:10I agree with that, that's a valid thing.
0:45:10 > 0:45:12But clarity's important.
0:45:12 > 0:45:15- Can I perhaps interpose a definition?- That'd be nice.
0:45:15 > 0:45:19This is from the American Family Foundation in 1985.
0:45:19 > 0:45:22"A cult, a totalist cult, to give it a full definition,
0:45:22 > 0:45:26"is a group or movement exhibiting a great or excessive
0:45:26 > 0:45:30"devotion or dedication to some person, idea or thing
0:45:30 > 0:45:33"and employing unethical, manipulative
0:45:33 > 0:45:37- "or coercive techniques of persuasion and control..." - That's the key bit.
0:45:37 > 0:45:40"..designed to advance the goals of the group's leaders
0:45:40 > 0:45:42"to the possible or actual detriment
0:45:42 > 0:45:46"of members, their families, or the community."
0:45:46 > 0:45:48And I'm not accusing anybody of being a cult.
0:45:48 > 0:45:52I want to hear his story and I'll come to you if I can.
0:45:52 > 0:45:54Right, OK.
0:45:54 > 0:45:57So you had to pay quite a lot of money
0:45:57 > 0:46:00to progress through the courses over a number of years.
0:46:00 > 0:46:03I met somebody who'd given 2 million to Scientology
0:46:03 > 0:46:05and who ended up in hospital.
0:46:05 > 0:46:07And you eventually qualified,
0:46:07 > 0:46:10you paid for courses to progress up the 26 levels
0:46:10 > 0:46:16and you reached the level whereby you were made privy to the secret.
0:46:16 > 0:46:18- Yes.- What's the secret?
0:46:18 > 0:46:20The secret is that we're all composed
0:46:20 > 0:46:21of millions of little beings,
0:46:21 > 0:46:23we're not individuals,
0:46:23 > 0:46:26and so our thoughts and our feelings are confused by this.
0:46:26 > 0:46:27The idea is to extract our souls
0:46:27 > 0:46:30from these clusters of little beings.
0:46:30 > 0:46:31- Thetans?- Body Thetans, yes.
0:46:31 > 0:46:34- Which came from an intergalactic war...- Yes.
0:46:34 > 0:46:38- AMERICAN ACCENT:- 75 million years ago, in this sector of the galaxy.
0:46:38 > 0:46:40You're channelling L Ron Hubbard now, aren't you?
0:46:40 > 0:46:41Very nearly, yeah.
0:46:41 > 0:46:45So... Just supposing, let's take a leap of imagination.
0:46:45 > 0:46:49Just supposing this is nonsense, this Thetan business.
0:46:49 > 0:46:51Just supposing it's not true for one second.
0:46:51 > 0:46:58Why do sane, rational, intelligent human beings buy it - literally -
0:46:58 > 0:46:59and buy into it?
0:46:59 > 0:47:00Well, it's a secret.
0:47:00 > 0:47:03I'd been a member for seven years before this was put to me
0:47:03 > 0:47:06so you know, I'd gone along that road a long way.
0:47:06 > 0:47:09In fact, the day that I opened the pack to these materials,
0:47:09 > 0:47:12I said, "This is like Colin Wilson's novel, The Mind Parasites,"
0:47:12 > 0:47:13it didn't make sense to me.
0:47:13 > 0:47:16But I said, "I've been on this road for seven years,
0:47:16 > 0:47:17"I'll check it. I'll see."
0:47:17 > 0:47:21And I still never did feel convinced and two years later I left.
0:47:22 > 0:47:25And how long has it...? Are you still getting over it?
0:47:25 > 0:47:26No, no.
0:47:26 > 0:47:29It's nearly 30 years ago since I left,
0:47:29 > 0:47:31but I think the problem with people who leave is
0:47:31 > 0:47:34they often consider the emotional experiences they had
0:47:34 > 0:47:36rather than questioning the truth of the teachings.
0:47:36 > 0:47:39Scientology claims to be scientific.
0:47:39 > 0:47:42So if you look at its tenets and discuss them openly,
0:47:42 > 0:47:43you find it's not scientific.
0:47:43 > 0:47:46L Ron Hubbard - he preached against drugs...
0:47:46 > 0:47:49Yes, he himself admitted to having been a barbiturate addict,
0:47:49 > 0:47:51in a lecture.
0:47:51 > 0:47:55And he tried to cash prescriptions in East Grinstead in the '60s,
0:47:55 > 0:47:58said he could give barbiturates to plants.
0:47:58 > 0:48:01This is interesting, isn't it?
0:48:01 > 0:48:03Cristina, you don't know what it's about until you're...
0:48:03 > 0:48:07Well, everyone knows now, the secret's out, not here but previously.
0:48:07 > 0:48:11- Read my book!- That's one of the best plugs I've ever heard.
0:48:11 > 0:48:15You don't know the secret until you're well into it, Cristina.
0:48:15 > 0:48:18You don't really know what the beliefs are.
0:48:18 > 0:48:19That is a very good magnet
0:48:19 > 0:48:22for people who are feeling vulnerable and confused
0:48:22 > 0:48:24- Mystery.- The mystery.
0:48:24 > 0:48:26The unfolding mystery, whereas...
0:48:26 > 0:48:28- Seduced.- Yes.
0:48:28 > 0:48:30And yet, when viewing it from a distance,
0:48:30 > 0:48:32Judge Laity in the mid-'80s,
0:48:32 > 0:48:34described it as corrupt, sinister and dangerous.
0:48:34 > 0:48:38Lots of strong words to use, and again we have to look at the methodology within a group.
0:48:38 > 0:48:42Why is it that people take on board a particular world view?
0:48:42 > 0:48:43If it's through free choice, fine.
0:48:43 > 0:48:46If it's not, that's a serious problem.
0:48:46 > 0:48:50George, we haven't heard from George yet. I'll come along. George.
0:48:50 > 0:48:52I think throughout this programme
0:48:52 > 0:48:54we've tended to polarise the discussion
0:48:54 > 0:48:56and we've done it from the start -
0:48:56 > 0:48:59what's the difference between a religion and a cult?
0:48:59 > 0:49:01As if you've got religions there and cults there.
0:49:01 > 0:49:04- LIVINGSTONE:- I agree with this gentleman.
0:49:04 > 0:49:05Cults brainwash you,
0:49:05 > 0:49:08it's psychological coercion, it's the charismatic leader...
0:49:08 > 0:49:10Francesca was saying right at the top
0:49:10 > 0:49:14there is very little distinction if you look at it. It's just a matter of scale.
0:49:14 > 0:49:18If you looked at the list that you put up at the beginning of the programme,
0:49:18 > 0:49:20if you take something like Opus Dei,
0:49:20 > 0:49:23now it's actually part of the Roman Catholic Church,
0:49:23 > 0:49:24it's been approved by the Pope.
0:49:24 > 0:49:26It's heavily criticised, yeah.
0:49:26 > 0:49:29There's the Opus Dei Awareness Network...
0:49:29 > 0:49:31Can you let me finish, please?
0:49:31 > 0:49:33I'm just responding.
0:49:33 > 0:49:37It is part of the Roman Catholic Church, OK, it's controversial
0:49:37 > 0:49:40but that's precisely my point - which category do you put it in?
0:49:40 > 0:49:45Is it part of religion, or is it something that's different?
0:49:45 > 0:49:48And I think we've tended to say, "Well, religion...
0:49:48 > 0:49:51"Mainstream religion has got sensible beliefs,
0:49:51 > 0:49:54"cults have got these funny beliefs."
0:49:54 > 0:49:57We haven't said that. Some people have said that, some people haven't said that.
0:49:57 > 0:50:00I think you're being a little bit selective in your hearing.
0:50:02 > 0:50:07In general, the conversation has been split between religion and cults,
0:50:07 > 0:50:10and the conversation what's been said,
0:50:10 > 0:50:13is a generalisation rather than actually address specific areas.
0:50:13 > 0:50:18And quite frankly, I think this obscures what's really going on.
0:50:18 > 0:50:20That is to say, if we're trying to find meaning,
0:50:20 > 0:50:23but if we're just going to have a little circus here,
0:50:23 > 0:50:24then we're having it.
0:50:24 > 0:50:27What's interesting about the debate is when I employed -
0:50:27 > 0:50:30and I know nothing about this gentleman's sexual habits -
0:50:30 > 0:50:33but when I employed exactly the same technique,
0:50:33 > 0:50:36of casting aspersions without any evidence whatsoever,
0:50:36 > 0:50:38I was called ridiculous.
0:50:38 > 0:50:41And yet, when this is happening on the front row here,
0:50:41 > 0:50:45it's thought of as, "Oh, yes, yes, these movements are dangerous."
0:50:45 > 0:50:49But the fact is the techniques of criticism are from that side,
0:50:49 > 0:50:51and they are all generalised.
0:50:51 > 0:50:55There are one or two absolutely real, absolutely real...
0:50:55 > 0:50:59Wait, wait. Let's explore technique in a second.
0:50:59 > 0:51:01One of the techniques, a cultish practice.
0:51:01 > 0:51:04We're not talking about groups per se being cults,
0:51:04 > 0:51:06we're talking about cultish practices within groups
0:51:06 > 0:51:09whether they be sects, parts of religions, or whatever.
0:51:09 > 0:51:12You've had your hand up for so long.
0:51:12 > 0:51:13You were talking about,
0:51:13 > 0:51:17your definition first of all of what counts as a cult.
0:51:17 > 0:51:20A lot of those words that you used are actually subjective,
0:51:20 > 0:51:23that this is, you know, this is manipulative.
0:51:23 > 0:51:26One person's manipulative is another person's selling technique.
0:51:26 > 0:51:29Manipulation means having a hidden agenda.
0:51:29 > 0:51:32It means that, literally, a hidden agenda.
0:51:32 > 0:51:37And I'm sure that lots of people have experienced when they belong to
0:51:37 > 0:51:40established religions and they don't...
0:51:40 > 0:51:44They decide to marry somebody that is not of their faith
0:51:44 > 0:51:47and their families get very upset and they don't speak to them,
0:51:47 > 0:51:50and people won't have green carpets
0:51:50 > 0:51:53because they're Protestant, aren't Catholic...
0:51:53 > 0:51:55What's the difference? This was our original contention.
0:51:55 > 0:51:57They use separation.
0:51:57 > 0:51:59All groups, all groups.
0:51:59 > 0:52:01Political parties, religions,
0:52:01 > 0:52:05they all use the, "We know what's best, those people are doing it wrong."
0:52:05 > 0:52:08APPLAUSE
0:52:08 > 0:52:10Barbara.
0:52:11 > 0:52:12Tell us about Tom, your son.
0:52:12 > 0:52:14Right.
0:52:14 > 0:52:18My son is involved with an organisation
0:52:18 > 0:52:21that's based on the internet.
0:52:21 > 0:52:22It's not a religion,
0:52:22 > 0:52:28it's run by an atheist who lives in Canada, who is an entrepreneur.
0:52:28 > 0:52:30He has set up a structure
0:52:30 > 0:52:34which earns him a living from voluntary donations
0:52:34 > 0:52:36and subscriptions to the podcasts,
0:52:36 > 0:52:38the books that he produces.
0:52:38 > 0:52:40It's about philosophy, isn't it?
0:52:40 > 0:52:41That's right.
0:52:41 > 0:52:44Politics, philosophy, so-called free thinking.
0:52:44 > 0:52:46It's apparently the biggest philosophy show on the internet.
0:52:46 > 0:52:50My son was studying philosophy and critical thinking when he was at school.
0:52:50 > 0:52:54He was about 16 when he first came across this website.
0:52:54 > 0:52:57I imagine he Googled "philosophy podcasts,"
0:52:57 > 0:53:01and there was an introduction to philosophy by this man,
0:53:01 > 0:53:03who is very charismatic
0:53:03 > 0:53:09and says unusual things in quite a gripping way,
0:53:09 > 0:53:13and he can tell you how to be free.
0:53:13 > 0:53:17He can really help you achieve personal freedom.
0:53:17 > 0:53:21All you have to do is listen to some of his podcasts,
0:53:21 > 0:53:23starting at the beginning of two and a half thousand.
0:53:23 > 0:53:26Read his books as well.
0:53:26 > 0:53:30Voluntary donations, please, because we can't run this without you,
0:53:30 > 0:53:33just had a bill for the server.
0:53:33 > 0:53:35Erm... When you listen to the podcasts,
0:53:35 > 0:53:39it's not so much about philosophy,
0:53:39 > 0:53:42it's about how evil your parents were.
0:53:42 > 0:53:43How you were abused as a child,
0:53:43 > 0:53:48because you didn't ask to be born, that was an unequal relationship,
0:53:48 > 0:53:51therefore it's an abusive relationship.
0:53:51 > 0:53:55It's nothing to do with sexual abuse, physical abuse,
0:53:55 > 0:53:59beating, whatever, even emotional abuse of raising a voice
0:53:59 > 0:54:03or shouting at the child, or shouting that they're stupid.
0:54:03 > 0:54:06It can be just asking them to clean their room,
0:54:06 > 0:54:11asking them to tidy up, lay the table.
0:54:11 > 0:54:13Very simple things, do your homework.
0:54:13 > 0:54:16Things that parents say routinely to their children
0:54:16 > 0:54:18as they're growing up.
0:54:18 > 0:54:20That's abusive, apparently.
0:54:20 > 0:54:24You should get abusive people out of your life,
0:54:24 > 0:54:26you should only have voluntary relationships
0:54:26 > 0:54:30and that means you should
0:54:30 > 0:54:32cut yourself off from your parents.
0:54:32 > 0:54:34How long's since you've seen Tom?
0:54:34 > 0:54:37Four years. Four years this month, in fact.
0:54:37 > 0:54:41Um... He's alive and well,
0:54:41 > 0:54:45I'm not sure what part of the country he's in any more.
0:54:45 > 0:54:50He's very much involved with this organisation still.
0:54:50 > 0:54:53He's close friends with some of the inner circle
0:54:53 > 0:54:57and I can't see him coming out of it
0:54:57 > 0:55:00as long as this charismatic leader is still alive -
0:55:00 > 0:55:03the advert for the show.
0:55:03 > 0:55:09It's growing very popular across the world,
0:55:09 > 0:55:12not just in America and Canada where it's largely based,
0:55:12 > 0:55:15but also in the UK, Australia, Europe.
0:55:15 > 0:55:19it's like an internet radio show,
0:55:19 > 0:55:22so there's a weekly show, which is live on a Sunday evening,
0:55:22 > 0:55:23there's podcasts as well.
0:55:23 > 0:55:25I bet Rod can enlighten us further.
0:55:25 > 0:55:28Barbara, it's an incredibly powerful story.
0:55:28 > 0:55:32We were saying earlier on, the brain can be very malleable and vulnerable
0:55:32 > 0:55:35and Tom, paradoxically, was studying critical thinking,
0:55:35 > 0:55:39but all the critical faculties seem to just disintegrate in some...
0:55:39 > 0:55:42Are we all vulnerable?
0:55:42 > 0:55:45I think all people are vulnerable to being manipulated
0:55:45 > 0:55:48and to also having their psychology taken over
0:55:48 > 0:55:50by any group or organisation.
0:55:50 > 0:55:52It can be a religious group or it can be a political group.
0:55:52 > 0:55:55Why might this have particularly hit home with Tom?
0:55:55 > 0:55:57Because it offers ultimate truths
0:55:57 > 0:55:59and on their own there's nothing wrong with that,
0:55:59 > 0:56:02but if that means cutting yourself off from your family,
0:56:02 > 0:56:04cutting yourself off from your career,
0:56:04 > 0:56:07giving your possessions away, if it takes over your life...
0:56:07 > 0:56:10The evidence is now becoming very clear in the literature
0:56:10 > 0:56:13that when groups take over in that way, when they become totalistic,
0:56:13 > 0:56:17that has a serious psychological effect on individuals,
0:56:17 > 0:56:21as well as destroying their life chances over the period during which they're involved,
0:56:21 > 0:56:23and the question to that group
0:56:23 > 0:56:26is the same to any other organisation in my view is,
0:56:26 > 0:56:29what are you doing to look after your members?
0:56:29 > 0:56:33Now, the fact is that the law doesn't apply equally at the moment
0:56:33 > 0:56:35to voluntary organisations or to religions.
0:56:35 > 0:56:39The Health and Safety at Work Act, for example, that has the duty of care...
0:56:39 > 0:56:41Or multinational organisations.
0:56:41 > 0:56:44And the fact is, that I welcome any organisation that says it's prepared
0:56:44 > 0:56:47to open itself up to that scrutiny, that says that it will allow...
0:56:47 > 0:56:50- Which Simon has to you this morning. - I welcome that.
0:56:50 > 0:56:52And the Raelians have as well.
0:56:52 > 0:56:55But I would say that those groups that don't,
0:56:55 > 0:56:58those groups that try and allow the argument to go forward,
0:56:58 > 0:57:01that somehow their beliefs allow them to do anything to anybody,
0:57:01 > 0:57:05those are the groups that I would describe as destructive cults
0:57:05 > 0:57:07because they elevate belief beyond anything
0:57:07 > 0:57:09and it actually doesn't matter any more
0:57:09 > 0:57:11the effect that that has on people.
0:57:11 > 0:57:14I agree with him, I think there's no system of checks and balances within these groups
0:57:14 > 0:57:17and I think that people are afraid to step on the toes,
0:57:17 > 0:57:20step on people's religious rights to religious freedom
0:57:20 > 0:57:22and yet forget about the effect that...
0:57:22 > 0:57:25You have the right to believe whatever you want,
0:57:25 > 0:57:27but the moment that your belief infringes on another's rights...
0:57:27 > 0:57:30Cole, I'll give you the last word. Your thoughts.
0:57:30 > 0:57:35Well, my thoughts are there'll be people sitting at home thinking,
0:57:35 > 0:57:37"Well, I sort of believe in God,
0:57:37 > 0:57:40"and I'm looking for truth in my life,
0:57:40 > 0:57:41"but what I've heard today
0:57:41 > 0:57:43"is a great number of people are all saying,
0:57:43 > 0:57:46" 'I've got the truth because Jesus told me individually.' "
0:57:46 > 0:57:50And actually, what I look for in a belief system,
0:57:50 > 0:57:52is a belief system that's about personal freedom,
0:57:52 > 0:57:55but it's about community and belonging,
0:57:55 > 0:57:58and allows me to express that and to also have an appreciation
0:57:58 > 0:58:00for the people around me who might have different belief systems.
0:58:00 > 0:58:02I've heard that this morning
0:58:02 > 0:58:04from some of the people who are in this room
0:58:04 > 0:58:07and I've not heard it from others, and those are the ones that concern me.
0:58:07 > 0:58:10Thank you all very much indeed, thank you.
0:58:10 > 0:58:15The debate continues on Twitter, online, we're not on next week because it's Whitsun.
0:58:15 > 0:58:19We'll be in Glasgow June 3rd, for now goodbye from everyone here in London
0:58:19 > 0:58:21and thank you very much for watching.
0:58:35 > 0:58:38Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd