:00:26. > :00:29.Good morning and welcome to The Big Questions, live from Hutchesons'
:00:29. > :00:32.Grammar School in Glasgow. I'm Nicky Campbell. This weekend Syria
:00:32. > :00:36.stands on the brink of a catastrophic civil war which would
:00:36. > :00:42.kill hundreds of thousands of people in sectarian strife. Our
:00:42. > :00:44.first Big Question: Is it immoral not to intervene in Syria? Ausama
:00:44. > :00:47.Monajed, from the Syrian National Council, says the world can no
:00:47. > :00:51.longer stand by and watch more children being slaughtered as they
:00:51. > :00:54.were at Houla. The coalition government say, "We're all in this
:00:54. > :00:58.together" but their reforms to the benefits system are hitting some
:00:58. > :01:01.families harder than others. Here in Scotland politicians are looking
:01:01. > :01:05.for a way to protect their constituents from the worst of the
:01:05. > :01:09.Westminster-imposed cuts. Our next Big Question: Should benefits be
:01:09. > :01:12.different in Scotland? The Scottish National Party MSP, Humza Yousaf,
:01:12. > :01:17.says it's wrong that Scots should suffer from reforms they did not
:01:17. > :01:22.support at the ballot box. Will your street be hanging out the
:01:22. > :01:25.bunting and toasting Her Majesty's health this afternoon? Or are you
:01:25. > :01:29.planning an escape from the Jubilee jamboree? Our last Big Question: Is
:01:29. > :01:32.the Jubilee showing Britain at its best? Charles Kennedy is here to
:01:32. > :01:42.lead the Royal tributes. And comedian Janey Godley defends the
:01:42. > :01:44.
:01:44. > :01:47.party poopers. Welcome everyone to The Big Questions. APPLAUSE
:01:47. > :01:50.With Kofi Annan's peace plan for Syria in tatters, Britain, France
:01:50. > :01:53.and the United States of America have all stood on the sidelines,
:01:53. > :01:56.wrung their hands and agreed "something must be done" but not
:01:56. > :02:06.without the backing of the United Nations, which everyone knows that
:02:06. > :02:06.
:02:06. > :02:10.Russia and China will veto. Around 10,000 people have already died in
:02:10. > :02:20.the conflict since March last year. Is it immoral not to intervene in
:02:20. > :02:26.Syria? From the Syrian National Council, Ausama Monajed, what
:02:26. > :02:31.should the world do? I think that intervention is inevitable. It is
:02:31. > :02:36.immoral not intervene. We cannot watch the Syrians being slaughtered
:02:36. > :02:39.on our TV screens. This law intensity conflict can drag on for
:02:39. > :02:45.years, given that the regime is in full control of the intelligence,
:02:45. > :02:49.the army, of the public and the posts and the opposition can no
:02:49. > :02:54.longer go back home and surround to oppression and dictatorship.
:02:54. > :02:59.Will there be more deaths as a result of intervention? Some argue
:02:59. > :03:03.that the ultimate effect would be more death and destruction? Without
:03:03. > :03:09.intervention, there will be a more chaotic situation and more deaths,
:03:09. > :03:14.of course. We can stop Civil War by intervening now and stop these
:03:14. > :03:22.cronies from destroying the country and killing as many Syrians as they
:03:22. > :03:25.wish to stay in power and maintain their grip on power.
:03:25. > :03:31.APPLAUSE Charles Kennedy, we remember, of
:03:31. > :03:36.course, Rwanda and the dereliction of duty there, we remember Bosnia
:03:36. > :03:42.with the UN peacekeepers with their hands tied as the slaughter went on.
:03:42. > :03:48.We did intervene in Kosovo to save lives, partly as a result of
:03:48. > :03:53.abdication of moral responsibility as some saw in Bosnia, surely this
:03:53. > :03:59.is the example to save civilian lives, where we have to do
:03:59. > :04:05.something? It is. It sounds dreadful to say this, there is no-
:04:05. > :04:08.one watching the programme, with not 110% sympathy to the points
:04:08. > :04:14.that are being made, but without the sanctions of the United Nations
:04:14. > :04:21.you cannot pick and choose. I was the Lib Dem ladder during Iraq. We
:04:21. > :04:25.took a stand, people agreed or disagreed with it, but you need the
:04:25. > :04:30.sanctions from the United Nations. You mention, Russia, China, but
:04:30. > :04:36.also the United States. President Obama is not going to do something
:04:36. > :04:41.pre-emptive, or something expeditionary, shall we say.
:04:41. > :04:45.Is that because it is a difficult time in the cycle? Precisely.
:04:45. > :04:49.Without the leader of the United States, in terms of personal and
:04:49. > :04:55.hardware, you will not be able to achieve anything.
:04:55. > :05:00.What about civilian enclaves? I mean children are being slaughtered.
:05:00. > :05:06.It is aing, but we cannot be selective. You cannot make a moral
:05:06. > :05:11.case, to come back to the question, you cannot make a moral case for
:05:11. > :05:19.saying we can ignore or flout international legallities when it
:05:19. > :05:25.suits us. There was no UN security resolution
:05:25. > :05:35.in 1998. We have now a coalition D- that was a touchy point to do with
:05:35. > :05:38.
:05:38. > :05:43.the Russians. We have to define I legally? If you cannot carry the
:05:43. > :05:50.United States, Russia and China... The question we have to ask
:05:50. > :05:55.ourselves is that why are we in the West putting sons and daughters at
:05:55. > :05:59.risk? Where are the Arab countries? Those countries have trillions of
:05:59. > :06:04.dollars of wealth, yet are silent, that is what is immoral.
:06:04. > :06:09.So they should be doing something? Reverend Sally Foster-Fulton, we
:06:09. > :06:15.have a situation that here one side is, of course, the Government, they
:06:15. > :06:19.are armed by Russia, they have Migs, they have surface-to-air missiles,
:06:19. > :06:24.entire towns in Russia are dependant on the arms trade to
:06:24. > :06:29.Syria, so Putin is not going to change his mind, is he? You have
:06:29. > :06:33.hit the nail on the head. This is a complex, deep issue. Of course we
:06:33. > :06:36.have a moral obligation to intervene anywhere where our
:06:36. > :06:42.brothers and sisterss in this global community, where people
:06:42. > :06:50.struggle and live on fear. But, the big question that we
:06:50. > :06:56.really have to grapple with is what is the best way forward? Now,
:06:56. > :07:02.historically, humanity has gone, any time there is violence we have
:07:02. > :07:08.met violence with more violence. Look at where that has led us. At
:07:08. > :07:13.least we could limit the damage, it would get too dark, the arms would
:07:13. > :07:18.be too tired to hold the sword, now, with a push of a button, without
:07:18. > :07:22.seeing the people we are harming we can anigh late them. We have to
:07:22. > :07:26.think hard about the stance, the world we live in, should violence
:07:26. > :07:30.be met with violence. What do you mean by intervention?
:07:30. > :07:37.How do you save the lives? definition is key. There is no
:07:37. > :07:42.point asking a question, saying is it immoral not to intervene? I
:07:42. > :07:49.could say is it immoral not to drop bombs on women and in order to
:07:49. > :07:54.protect other women and children? In wars people die. With this type
:07:55. > :08:02.of intervention we can still hurt people. This is not a choice of
:08:02. > :08:06.bombs and bullets on the one hand. Ausama Monajed says, with every
:08:06. > :08:11.sympathy, no-one here does not have that, but we cannot sit back.
:08:11. > :08:16.Watching this on our screens, but if we are dropping bombs we are
:08:16. > :08:21.still watching with arms followeded. We could be intensifying a conflict,
:08:21. > :08:26.adding to the death toll. Going to Libya with where we have moved on,
:08:26. > :08:29.there are now 250 different militias. We have moved on. We
:08:29. > :08:36.cannot go into Middle East countries, arming a bunch of people
:08:36. > :08:41.we know little about. So this is the lesser of several
:08:42. > :08:47.evils? My level of several evils is diplomacy.
:08:47. > :08:53.Will diplomaty work? There is no diplomat kal solution for. This
:08:53. > :08:58.there a military solution? It is to stop... This is a point. They are
:08:58. > :09:04.prepared to kill millions of Syrians. It is not right to compare
:09:04. > :09:09.two sides. You are stopping aggressors from aggressor -- from
:09:09. > :09:16.aggression. I don't want my taxpayer money to
:09:16. > :09:22.go to the Free Syrian Army to go into another village to kill people.
:09:22. > :09:28.What the Free Syrian Army is doing is protecting civilians.
:09:28. > :09:34.From launching attacks on civilians, from snipers killing children and.
:09:34. > :09:41.More than 15,000 women and children have been killed. We have more than
:09:41. > :09:46.1,of00 cases of rape. The a-- 1,6 hundreds cases of rape. The regime
:09:46. > :09:51.will carry on. They are prepared to kill as many as they can in their
:09:51. > :10:00.power. Russia and China are influential. It is like Egypt back
:10:00. > :10:04.in the day for Russia. So strategic. Any victory, and Russia would
:10:04. > :10:10.consider the collapse of the Syrian regime as a victory for the West.
:10:10. > :10:14.That is the key way that Russia is objecting. Intervention has
:10:14. > :10:18.different forms in different ways, Turkey was prepared to take the
:10:19. > :10:24.lead, but the United States thought it was not the right time, probably
:10:24. > :10:28.because of the election cycle. Speaking as an ex-military
:10:28. > :10:33.officer... What is the ethical position? I think, my view is that
:10:33. > :10:37.we have now got to the point where doing nothing is not an option.
:10:37. > :10:42.We cannot really just stand by and watch the awful things that we have
:10:42. > :10:46.seen over the past few weeks happening in Syria. There are huge
:10:46. > :10:51.practical problems, of course there are. As Charles Kennedy has pointed
:10:51. > :10:55.out, without the UN resolution it becomes very difficult. Without US
:10:55. > :11:02.participation it is difficult they have the essential resources
:11:02. > :11:06.required to do that. The USA is shifting its military focus to the
:11:07. > :11:10.Pacific, but I do think that there come as point where you have to say
:11:10. > :11:15.enough is enough and intervene. It is never easy.
:11:15. > :11:18.How does that manifest itself? have to protect the innocents. That
:11:18. > :11:23.is the moral function of military forces.
:11:23. > :11:27.So by that we kill more people? may not have to kill people. The
:11:27. > :11:32.primary aim is to protect those who cannot protect themselves. To
:11:32. > :11:38.protect the weak from the strong. If... That sounds like a noble
:11:38. > :11:44.purpose, but how do we do that? We have to put in ground troops?
:11:44. > :11:50.To separate the warring factions. When did we become the equaliser of
:11:50. > :11:54.the world. Who are we to keep going in sorting out everyone's fights. I
:11:54. > :11:58.am appalled by the deaths in Syria, but we don't have a history of
:11:58. > :12:03.working this out right. We are in the middle of two other conflicts
:12:03. > :12:06.we have not finished, so I don't think we are good equalisers at
:12:06. > :12:11.this. So turn our backs on it? There must
:12:11. > :12:16.be another way. I would say intervention is not the
:12:16. > :12:23.answer. It would only exacerbate the situation. Look at Afghanistan,
:12:23. > :12:30.Iraq, and also Libya. NATO intervened there. 30,000 more
:12:30. > :12:35.civilians lives' were killed once NATO had intervened. Also it just
:12:35. > :12:41.adds fuel to the fire. APPLAUSE
:12:41. > :12:46.I think there is hypocrisy here. In Libya, the politicians came in,
:12:46. > :12:52.this is a moral case, we are stopping a slaughter, a massacre
:12:52. > :12:57.happening. What is the difference with Syria? Why not intervene in
:12:57. > :13:03.Syria? We don't have the reserves. That is it. George Osbourne said
:13:03. > :13:09.after Libya, let's get the oil contracts for the oil companies!
:13:09. > :13:15.The Syrian regime have a different level of weaponry, superyore to
:13:15. > :13:21.Colonel Gaddafi. -- suepeer yore.
:13:21. > :13:26.There are lots of Syrian opposition groups, you accept? There are lots
:13:27. > :13:30.of jihadists? That is overstated. We see the narratives being created
:13:30. > :13:34.in the West as an excuse not to intervene.
:13:34. > :13:39.Is that what what it is, propaganda? We have seen what
:13:39. > :13:45.happens when you go into a foreign country with Western troops and
:13:45. > :13:51.think that you can take sides. should not ply what happened in
:13:51. > :13:59.Iraq. You would like the Libyan model in
:13:59. > :14:03.Syria? Libya threatened Europe's national security, it had the
:14:04. > :14:08.energy reserves. I think that the gentleman had a
:14:08. > :14:13.good point about hypocrisy. One of the reasons we are not discussing
:14:14. > :14:19.this is that Syria are not Western allies. Nobody called for
:14:19. > :14:24.intervention against irbl when they are slaughtering Palestinians. --
:14:24. > :14:29.Israel when they are slaughtering Palestinians.
:14:29. > :14:35.Is there hypocrisy, a double standard? The whole of foreign
:14:35. > :14:43.policy and diplomacy, who said we don't have permanent friends, we
:14:43. > :14:46.just have permanent interests? There is a way that the world works,
:14:46. > :14:53.but another practical point, as Stuart was saying, I have sympathy
:14:53. > :14:57.with the point he is making, but as he knows better than me being ex-
:14:57. > :15:01.military, now without the sanction of a United Nations resolution, the
:15:01. > :15:05.military planners in this country or any other country, they have to
:15:05. > :15:10.decide if we are going to bomb there or there, they themselves
:15:11. > :15:15.could end up in the international court in the Hague, guilty of war
:15:15. > :15:21.crimes if they don't have the legality behind them.
:15:21. > :15:26.Illegal wars? Exactly. Tony Blair is still being hounded as he was at
:15:26. > :15:32.the Leveson Inquiry over accusations he was a war criminal
:15:32. > :15:40.because he launched an illegal war. If we go beyond the moral aspects,
:15:40. > :15:46.I believe there is a talk for intervening, but the practical
:15:46. > :15:51.aspects, Britain cannot do it on their own.
:15:51. > :15:57.We are already intervening, you are talking about a point of morality.
:15:57. > :16:03.It surely must be immoral to be putting in weapons and arms into an
:16:03. > :16:07.unsafe conflict zone. Our memories are sho so short we have forgotten
:16:07. > :16:12.what happened with the Mujahideen, we trained them up, now they are
:16:12. > :16:17.kicking our backsides, now our sons and daughters are put in danger in
:16:17. > :16:24.Afghanistan. But the nat is isolation? It does
:16:24. > :16:27.not need to be a Western intervention. The intervening
:16:27. > :16:32.forces would leave with the weapons, and not have the weapons left in
:16:32. > :16:36.the country. So the forces go in and do what?
:16:36. > :16:42.Destroy the capabilities of the Bashar al-Assad regime launching
:16:42. > :16:47.attacks and coordinating military campaigns against civilians.
:16:47. > :16:51.That sounds easy And creating a safe zone for military defectors to
:16:52. > :16:56.go to. Then what? There is the assumption
:16:56. > :17:02.that intervention stops things, that we will say we are coming and
:17:02. > :17:07.everything will stop. This will not happen. All that we will be aed of
:17:07. > :17:12.is colonisation, going in doing what we do not understand. The
:17:12. > :17:16.Islamic world, Dubai will then unite against us and divide monks
:17:16. > :17:21.itself. This is more complicated than justing there is a moral case
:17:21. > :17:25.there. Is a moral case for the Syrian government to stop what they
:17:25. > :17:29.are doing, for the rebels to try other solutions. There are all
:17:29. > :17:33.sorts of moralcations to be made, but the moral case for intervention
:17:33. > :17:36.is not clear. It would not stop the thing as people assume that it
:17:36. > :17:40.might. If you lived in Houla and were a
:17:40. > :17:45.villager there, and your children, wife had been slaughtered, had
:17:45. > :17:48.their throats cut, what would you want the world to do? I would want
:17:48. > :17:55.the world to stop Bashar al-Assad from killing my people, but what is
:17:55. > :17:59.the best way to do that? Is sending in bombers better? If I were a
:17:59. > :18:06.villager in an Alawite village bombed by the West in response,
:18:06. > :18:11.what is the best way? With all respect, that is a simple approach.
:18:12. > :18:15.There is a side that says you drop bombs and then the world is a
:18:15. > :18:21.better place Military operations can comprise of a spectrum from
:18:21. > :18:24.basic peacekeeping to what you are talking about, general war and
:18:24. > :18:29.armed conflict. I think that the primary purpose for military
:18:29. > :18:33.intervention would be to stop the fighting. Secondly to separate the
:18:33. > :18:38.warring factions and to protect those who cannot protect themselves,
:18:38. > :18:45.and then to allow the Syrian people to sort out politically by debate
:18:45. > :18:49.what to do in the future. But the SNC is a big opposition
:18:49. > :18:55.group but it does not represent all Syrians.
:18:55. > :19:00.How to appease the Russians? They have a Naval Base, a listening post.
:19:00. > :19:06.Which is very important to them. They have a weapons contract to the
:19:06. > :19:13.order of �2.5 billion. That is a big diplomatic problem.
:19:13. > :19:19.A huge political problem for Putin. Huge. We are getting on our high
:19:19. > :19:23.horses about the Russians. Let's talk about morality, let's talk
:19:23. > :19:29.about consistency. You do what you can do. We have the
:19:29. > :19:37.situation for, example, of North Korea. The atrocities there are
:19:38. > :19:46.unspeakable. China... Human rights in China?
:19:46. > :19:49.cannot do anything? Can we? We can't cross the street and save
:19:50. > :19:54.our brothers and sisters and their children there, we can't. Is this
:19:54. > :19:59.not a situation where we can't do anything? When was the last time
:19:59. > :20:08.that a current affairs programme like this, for example or Newsnight,
:20:08. > :20:12.whatever it may be, the Andrew Marr Show discuss the situations in
:20:12. > :20:15.Zimbabwe? Yet, wheel back, it was all over the place, terrible things
:20:15. > :20:20.were happening, I guess that they still are.
:20:20. > :20:26.The best way forward is to back the peace plan the UN and Kofi Annan,
:20:26. > :20:29.shaky as it is, we have to support it. The only way there will be
:20:30. > :20:34.lasting peace is to get those involved in it around the table to
:20:34. > :20:40.come up with their own answer. If we go in as the military, it is
:20:40. > :20:45.like putting a cap on a spring that will pop back with a vengians. We
:20:45. > :20:51.have to let them handle it themselves. As painful as it is.
:20:51. > :20:54.So what is feasible? But that is a failure. The regime would stop its
:20:54. > :21:00.atrocities against people, they would pull troops from outside of
:21:01. > :21:07.the cities and villagers, point two is to release the political
:21:07. > :21:13.prisoners, 2,012 have been arrested. We have to demonstrate freely in
:21:13. > :21:16.the streets, this none of this has happened. That was supposed to
:21:17. > :21:21.happen. Then to enter the negotiations of the regime and the
:21:21. > :21:26.regime does not want to negotiate, so the Kofi Annan plan is not
:21:26. > :21:34.working as the regime does not want it to.
:21:34. > :21:41.Ausama Monajed, will... They have issued statements... Ausama Monajed
:21:41. > :21:45.will Bashar al-Assad end up in the dock? There have been different
:21:45. > :21:48.options offered. How will end up? Similar to Colonel
:21:48. > :21:51.Gaddafi's regime. We have to leave it there.
:21:51. > :21:54.If you'd like to have your say about that debate, log on to
:21:54. > :21:56.bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions, where you'll find links to where you can
:21:56. > :21:59.continue the discussion online. We're also debating live this
:21:59. > :22:02.morning from Hutchesons' Grammar School in Glasgow. "Should benefits
:22:02. > :22:06.be different in Scotland?" And, Is the Jubilee showing Britain at its
:22:06. > :22:14.best? Tell us what you think about those topics, or send us any
:22:15. > :22:17.general comments you'd like to make about the programme. At the last
:22:17. > :22:22.General Election, Scotland sent 41 Labour MPs to Westminster and 6
:22:22. > :22:25.Scottish Nationalists, versus just 11 Lib Dems and one Tory. So it's
:22:25. > :22:27.not surprising that Scots find many of the policies of the coalition
:22:27. > :22:32.government hard to stomach, especially the reform of the
:22:32. > :22:35.welfare system. But the Scottish Parliament can only huff and puff
:22:35. > :22:43.about its dissent unless, or until, they vote for independence or are
:22:43. > :22:46.given more financial freedoms under devolution. Last week the Labour
:22:46. > :22:51.and the SNP members flexed their muscles by voting for a Bill to
:22:51. > :22:59.protect people in Scotland from the ravages of UK-wide cuts to benefits.
:22:59. > :23:07.Should benefits be different in Scotland? Well, Humza Yousaf, it is
:23:07. > :23:13.interesting, as an SNP MSP, you look the polling, one of the things
:23:13. > :23:19.that the coalition Government has planned legislating on which is
:23:19. > :23:22.popular are the welfare reforms 74% agreed the Government pays too much
:23:22. > :23:27.in benefits. That does not... the current welfare system working
:23:27. > :23:32.in Scotland? No, the system across the United Kingdom, that is not
:23:32. > :23:36.working. It is fundamentally flawed. To that extent I can have sympathy
:23:36. > :23:40.with trying to change it. The problem is that the changes being
:23:40. > :23:44.made are punishing the worst off. The disabled in our community. That
:23:44. > :23:47.is not the way to go. In Scotland we tend to go a different path to
:23:47. > :23:51.the United Kingdom in a number of different affairs. Education for
:23:51. > :23:57.people in Scotland is free at University. South of the border
:23:57. > :24:03.barriers are being erected. The NHS south of the bored ter is a two-
:24:03. > :24:09.tier system. We are keeping it public. If we had control over we
:24:09. > :24:12.have we -- welfare we would do things different. It would be more
:24:13. > :24:16.simple it would make work pay and lift people out of poverty. That is
:24:16. > :24:20.what you want if you control the powers here you can start from
:24:20. > :24:24.scratch. You can have the benefit of hindsight, but I want it get to
:24:24. > :24:28.the crux of the matter, the problem with welfare reforms and the
:24:28. > :24:32.austerity that is coming from the UK Government, is that on the one
:24:32. > :24:36.hand they are told they have no money, so they increase fees. Don't
:24:36. > :24:40.have money so they increase prescription charges, they don't
:24:40. > :24:48.have money so they have it make welfare reforms, but on the other
:24:48. > :24:52.hand, they somehow manage to find �100 billion to re new Trident.
:24:52. > :24:57.So where are you finding the money from? We are saying that in
:24:57. > :25:01.Scotland we pay 9 .4% of tax money for a population of 8%. So we are
:25:01. > :25:04.paying our way. There are ways to find money. The difference is in
:25:04. > :25:07.Scotland we do it differently. Those that are best-placed to make
:25:07. > :25:11.the decisions about Scotland are the Scottish people. They would
:25:11. > :25:17.look for the interest. We don't need a UK Government that we did
:25:17. > :25:21.not vote for telling us what, how we should live in our society.
:25:21. > :25:31.We were having a conversation earlier, you said that there were a
:25:31. > :25:37.lot of people in Scotland or on welfare in the country this should
:25:37. > :25:42.not be? Do you believe of the idea of the deserving and undesever --
:25:42. > :25:48.undeserving? I am sure there are feckless people and worthy people
:25:48. > :25:53.who are in deep trouble and need help. That is not the argument, the
:25:53. > :25:59.money it is �21 billion for social support in Scotland, out of a
:25:59. > :26:03.budget of �6 billion, we have to keep it capped -- �66 billion. I
:26:04. > :26:08.want to bring it back to Scotland, the one thing to bring back is the
:26:08. > :26:13.taxation that pays for that welfare. Holyrood is unacceptable, the
:26:13. > :26:17.accountability of the MPs spending that money is not there.
:26:17. > :26:21.The one in five Scottish homes that are workless, and families where
:26:21. > :26:26.generations have never worked is this the way to affect cultural
:26:26. > :26:31.change? Would be a wonderful change in Scotland. The SNP as they have
:26:31. > :26:35.said, that we have had 60 years and not much has changed in Glasgow. I
:26:35. > :26:39.remember when I was a boy here it was exactly the same. We still had
:26:39. > :26:44.the same people who were on welfare, nobody worked in the families. The
:26:44. > :26:51.welfare system has failed us.. The way we are doing it is wrong. We
:26:51. > :26:56.have to solve that. APPLAUSE As a socialist and as a citizen, I
:26:56. > :26:59.think that the welfare state is non-negotiable. The settlement
:26:59. > :27:04.after the Second World War was that Britain protects the vulnerable,
:27:04. > :27:07.that is why we had the welfare state and the NHS it exists to stop
:27:07. > :27:12.people falling through the bottom of society. Now the economy, such
:27:12. > :27:16.as it is... But people are falling through the bottom and have stayed
:27:16. > :27:21.from generation to generation? Do you think people are taking the
:27:21. > :27:25.micky on welfare? I'm sure there are, but far fewer than we suppose.
:27:25. > :27:29.I think that the people taking the micky are the people running our
:27:29. > :27:33.society, frankly, who have put people in this poverty. We have had
:27:33. > :27:38.generations of people on welfare, it is because of the failure of
:27:38. > :27:44.free market capitalism. The idea... The poor are poorer
:27:44. > :27:48.because the rich are richer is nonsense. But that is what it looks
:27:48. > :27:52.like. That is nonsense that the poor are poor because the rich are
:27:52. > :27:57.rich. What you want to do is to have a social welfare system that
:27:57. > :28:01.is redistributing. That is up to you if you have the tax you want
:28:01. > :28:07.socialism. Others want a safety blanket at the bottom. Which in
:28:07. > :28:10.1944 is what was invented. The Act let people not fall out of the
:28:10. > :28:13.bottom, as you say. Somewhere between the two we need a
:28:13. > :28:20.resolution. The point is that Scotland could have ideas on how to
:28:20. > :28:27.do this. Personally, I would like to devolve welfare down, below
:28:27. > :28:32.Holyrood, down to local councils and little community groups, into
:28:32. > :28:35.mutuals. It is the mechanics society, the working men's society,
:28:35. > :28:40.the way that welfare was organised people in communities looked after
:28:40. > :28:48.their own it could be the chump, yourself, anyone. The women's
:28:48. > :28:52.society ! That would help as opposed to the
:28:52. > :28:56.working men's! I think it is clear from what people say that there is
:28:56. > :29:00.something needed in the reform of welfare. We have heard people argue
:29:00. > :29:09.for that. We have a process driven from Westminster. It has not been
:29:09. > :29:13.applied in Scotland yet. It does not come into effect... Until April
:29:13. > :29:18.of 2013. What the process reform has brought forward are the changes
:29:18. > :29:22.that Humza Yousaf is asking for. I believe that Scotland has a great
:29:22. > :29:27.deal to gain from the same process. We have all of the same problems,
:29:27. > :29:31.but perhaps on a different scale. We have an element of fraud in the
:29:31. > :29:35.system where people are claiming benefits they are not entitled to.
:29:35. > :29:40.But more importantly, what we have to do is take the poor unfortunate
:29:40. > :29:44.people who have been dumped by successive governments, own
:29:44. > :29:47.benefits simply to get them out of the way back into work for the
:29:47. > :29:52.benefit for the economy and for the benefit of the people themselves
:29:52. > :29:55.who suffer all of the indignities of being unemployed.
:29:55. > :29:58.That is difficult to disagree with, that of course we want to get
:29:59. > :30:04.people back into work, but the strength of feeling in Scotland
:30:04. > :30:08.about the welfare issue, the reforms is rare for the SNP and the
:30:08. > :30:14.Labour Party to join forces. That alone goes to show just how
:30:14. > :30:20.damaging these can be. To say that they don't come into effect next
:30:20. > :30:26.year, technically they don't, but speaking to the organisations, the
:30:26. > :30:30.groups,... Shelter Scotland support the reforms? All of them? Go to the
:30:30. > :30:34.carers in society taking care of the vulnerable, they are saking in
:30:34. > :30:38.their boots and want the Scottish Parliament to step up and do what
:30:38. > :30:42.they can. I can't believe that indig nation that people are
:30:42. > :30:51.defrauding the system. We have watched MPs defraud the system for
:30:51. > :30:56.the longest time! Let's get a handle on that! Oh, woe betide
:30:56. > :31:01.somebody defrauds the social system! We only have one MP in the
:31:01. > :31:06.system, he is unimpeachable. Uncorruptable. Listen, Charles
:31:06. > :31:10.Kennedy, we mention... Humza Yousaf make as good point.
:31:10. > :31:14.Politicians with the surname of Kennedy have not got a good record
:31:14. > :31:18.here. We are not talking about sex! Let's
:31:18. > :31:21.address the issue of governments over the years having tried to do
:31:21. > :31:28.something about this. It used to be called thinking the unthinkable
:31:28. > :31:34.when Tony Blair came to power and put Frank Field into charge of this.
:31:34. > :31:38.Can we reform it, if you do, can it be painless? No it cannot be
:31:38. > :31:42.painless. I think that, when I started out nearly 30 years ago now
:31:42. > :31:47.in Parliament, one of the issues that I was involved with as a young
:31:47. > :31:52.MP at that point was the welfare state.
:31:52. > :31:55.The health service and the benefits, so on. Everyone could see the
:31:55. > :32:00.iceberg coming out of the mist which was that we were an ageing
:32:00. > :32:06.society, that was going to accelerate, the demography of the
:32:06. > :32:10.situation was what they used to call in that phrase "the inverted
:32:10. > :32:14.pyramid" less taxpayers, smaller families and more to support. You
:32:14. > :32:19.don't have to be a Nobel Prize winner to figure out there is a
:32:19. > :32:25.problem here, Mission Control! I don't think that the problem would
:32:25. > :32:29.be solved, myself, coming back to the question, by devolving more
:32:30. > :32:34.here. I will give an example, pensions, how on earth are you
:32:34. > :32:42.going to disentangle pensions and inheritance on a purely Scottish
:32:42. > :32:45.basis from a UK tax-funded basis, which it has been through
:32:45. > :32:50.generations. I don't think it can be done.
:32:50. > :32:58.You have concerns about this? only speak for the whole of the UK.
:32:58. > :33:02.I started Pat's Petition six months ago. The nature of the percentage
:33:02. > :33:06.of fraud, that was one of the things that the government brought
:33:06. > :33:13.out, to reform benefits for the disabled people because of the
:33:13. > :33:18.fraud rate. That is 0.5%, the lowest rate of fraud next to old
:33:18. > :33:20.age pensioners, but we don't talk about pensioners cheating the
:33:20. > :33:25.system. Unless they are in the House of
:33:25. > :33:31.Lords! I'm work ong that one! much less are you going to get,
:33:31. > :33:35.Pat? What are the fears about the changes? They did talk about when
:33:35. > :33:40.they first brought it in being a complex system. Then the recession
:33:40. > :33:48.came, the bankers, I say broke the society.
:33:48. > :33:51.That was Fred Good win, Alex Salmond's friend! It was a Labour
:33:51. > :33:54.government... Carry on. Now we have a recession, we are
:33:54. > :34:02.told there is no money. The Government has everything handed to
:34:02. > :34:07.them on a plate. They keep cutting and cutting. What concerns us as a,
:34:07. > :34:11.I'm a disabled person, what concerns us is the impact that the
:34:11. > :34:15.social works, the benefits, the housing, the legal aid, the
:34:15. > :34:22.Citizens Advice Bureau, everything falling on disabled people's
:34:22. > :34:26.shoulders, the whole lot coming all in one go. We have looked for a
:34:26. > :34:30.community impact assess model and how it will affect people across
:34:30. > :34:37.the country. As a blind person how does it
:34:37. > :34:44.affect you, you are a carer to? will have to go through
:34:44. > :34:50.reassessment. I was judged registered blind in 1997, I did not
:34:50. > :34:55.have to be reassessed. That was it. How stressful is the process of
:34:55. > :35:00.reassessment? We are frightened. You are going to lose the
:35:00. > :35:04.disability allowances that mean we can have a quality of life that
:35:04. > :35:09.everybody in this audience will probably take for granted. Why do
:35:10. > :35:14.you believe you will lose your benefit? Because they have
:35:14. > :35:18.changed... As we heard from Humza Yousaf we don't don't have the
:35:18. > :35:24.detail. We have the details. There has been
:35:24. > :35:28.a run on the new assessment process. It has been done in Burnley and
:35:28. > :35:31.Aberdeen. The information coming from that to those of us who are
:35:31. > :35:40.politicians on the ground is that there has been fear and concern,
:35:40. > :35:45.but in practise it has worked. How can you have an assessment done
:35:45. > :35:49.by ATUS when it is a tick box. It does not take notice of the person,
:35:49. > :35:55.the healthcare professional. There is no room on the box system for
:35:55. > :35:59.personal information. There is one lady assessed. She did pottery. On
:35:59. > :36:05.the interview she said that she managed pottering, there was
:36:05. > :36:09.nothing on that assessment to take into account that individual
:36:09. > :36:12.person's needs... So it is blunt and imprecise.
:36:12. > :36:16.What is interesting about the discussion is we are talking about
:36:16. > :36:21.the administration of the welfare system it goes back to the
:36:22. > :36:26.nationalised method. It is not ever going to work because it is a far
:36:26. > :36:30.too big. We have to move to other ways of organisation to make this
:36:30. > :36:35.happen and break down the money. Get the money going to individual
:36:35. > :36:39.people. For the Conservative MSP to suggest
:36:39. > :36:44.it is not impact on Scotland demonstrates his ignorance of some
:36:44. > :36:48.of the different legislation within Scotland. There are 32 local
:36:48. > :36:54.authorities who are having to plan with regards to housing and
:36:54. > :36:56.homelessness now. They are looking to chaos and bankruptcy, given the
:36:56. > :37:01.homelessness responsibilities. It will be a complete nonsense for you
:37:02. > :37:07.to say that. The system failing in Scotland is the system put in place
:37:07. > :37:11.by previous governments over generations. The reforms taking
:37:11. > :37:14.place would have been administered had it not been for the fact that
:37:14. > :37:18.the Scottish Parliament rejected the opportunity to pass the powers
:37:18. > :37:22.back to Westminster. Now we have to quickly create a process in
:37:22. > :37:26.Scotland which is designed to paper over the cracks created by that
:37:26. > :37:36.decision. It is happening now.
:37:36. > :37:36.
:37:36. > :37:41.If the result of this, Humza Yousaf, is a more generous, a less cut
:37:41. > :37:46.benefit system in Scotland, would thereby the responsibility of
:37:46. > :37:49.benefit tourism? People from other parts of the European Union coming
:37:49. > :37:55.to Scotland as they will not go to England is that ridiculous? It is,
:37:55. > :38:03.but the point is about the detail that the gentleman is making...
:38:03. > :38:09.Hang on, why is that ridiculous? Hold on if you are a citizen of the
:38:09. > :38:14.European Union and we are, and so is everything else in the European
:38:14. > :38:24.Union then you have equal entitlement.
:38:24. > :38:28.
:38:28. > :38:31.All On Red -- ALL SPEAK AT ONCE People from Scotland don't go to
:38:31. > :38:35.other parts of the European Union because they have better benefits.
:38:35. > :38:41.That does not happen, but the point is, the point that the gentleman
:38:41. > :38:46.was making which was correct, you have a UK Government that I sass
:38:46. > :38:51.they can't so shave -- to shave off �2 50 million from the disability
:38:51. > :38:55.welfare, you don't give the detail, it is natural that people assume
:38:55. > :38:59.the worst. If you know there are cuts coming your way, you will suem
:38:59. > :39:05.the worst and put in place the structures for that. You cannot
:39:05. > :39:11.hold that against people. Kitty? The welfare reforms are not
:39:11. > :39:17.just about disability benefit, but a raft of other things. The idea of
:39:17. > :39:21.a universal benefit which is coming along. That is surely a good one.
:39:21. > :39:25.For all there are people that defraud the system, there are those
:39:25. > :39:29.who don't collect the benefit as they don't understand the system. I
:39:29. > :39:34.think it would be detrimental. We have a fluid society in the UK. My
:39:34. > :39:40.children live half in Scotland, half in England. If we start
:39:40. > :39:43.separating it out, the idea was, sorry, to simplify, to have a
:39:43. > :39:47.universal benefit. I can't see how a simplified benefit system
:39:47. > :39:53.throughout the whole of the UK would be bad for people. At least
:39:53. > :39:59.they could understand it and if you did not like it, you could complain.
:39:59. > :40:05.At the moment it is so complicated. The highest rate of disability
:40:05. > :40:12.allowance for a person is about �70 a week, the DLA care package. An
:40:12. > :40:19.MSP is paid more than that to stay in a hotel in Edinburgh! APPLAUSE
:40:19. > :40:29.We are going to leave it there. Ed I will come to you in the last
:40:29. > :40:30.
:40:30. > :40:33.debate. He knows the Royal family b.
:40:33. > :40:36.-- very well. If you have views about that debate
:40:36. > :40:40.just log on to bbc.co.uk/the big questions and follow the links to
:40:40. > :40:42.where you can continue the discussion online. It all began
:40:42. > :40:45.back in March when the Queen and Prince Phillip visited Leicester,
:40:45. > :40:48.Britain's most multi-cultural city. By the end of July, the 86-year-old
:40:48. > :40:51.Queen and the 91-year-old Duke will have traversed the length and
:40:51. > :40:54.breadth of her kingdom on her Diamond Jubilee tour. And today
:40:54. > :41:00.they'll all be floating down the Thames on barges, probably in the
:41:00. > :41:07.rain. Is the Jubilee showing Britain at its best? Now, Katie
:41:07. > :41:13.Grant has presided over a remarkable er a... Me? You have,
:41:13. > :41:19.you are a remarkable woman, you don't look your age at all! No, the
:41:19. > :41:22.Queen, she has almost become a cultural icon? Yes, she has. What
:41:22. > :41:25.is important about the Jubilee is people looking outside what they
:41:25. > :41:31.see about us from the outside. I think it is a great thing that they
:41:31. > :41:36.do see the best of British. The Pageant tri which is great. The
:41:36. > :41:40.street parties, people getting together -- Pageantry. The
:41:40. > :41:44.wonderful people in the Mall there twor two or three days. I think
:41:44. > :41:49.that when people look at Britain they see a sense of joy. How can
:41:49. > :41:56.that be bad? There is a chance for everyone to get together. Does she
:41:56. > :42:01.preside over a union ified, multi- cultural kingdom? She does, not
:42:01. > :42:07.always unified. But she is a constant? The Jubilee
:42:07. > :42:11.givers us a chance to argue. We can all argue. We have free speech in
:42:11. > :42:15.the country. People can argue about whether she is a good thing or bad
:42:15. > :42:19.thing. I think that the monarchy is a good thing it is nice it is
:42:19. > :42:24.something that we do well. Charles Kennedy, even a rabid lefty
:42:24. > :42:34.like yourself is not going to argue against this? I will answer to
:42:34. > :42:35.
:42:35. > :42:41.being a Jacobite! No, I think, I agree. I think it is a plus.
:42:41. > :42:48.I really do. The thing that strikes me, you know,
:42:48. > :42:56.I'm not somebody who is terribly in favour of the hereditary principle
:42:56. > :43:02.or that, but when the Honours comes around and it is the lollipop lady,
:43:02. > :43:07.the unsung heroes and the pleasure that gives to so many people at a
:43:07. > :43:13.local level, this are never going to be on national television, their
:43:13. > :43:18.name up in lights, irthink that is... The Queen herself over 60
:43:18. > :43:26.years, do you think she has done a remarkable job? I think she has.
:43:26. > :43:34.Can you think of anyone from Prime Ministers to Archbishops, anyone
:43:34. > :43:39.who has held such a prominent, global position public ally for 60
:43:39. > :43:44.years. She has hardly put a foot wrong.
:43:44. > :43:50.When the historians write, sad to say, one day, the reflections on
:43:50. > :43:53.this era, I think it will go down as a remarkable plus story.
:43:53. > :43:59.APPLAUSE You two! What on earth are you
:43:59. > :44:02.going to say! I think that she comes from a great immigrant family
:44:02. > :44:06.that came to this country and that is with great respect she has done
:44:06. > :44:11.well in that. I think it is wonderful we have the Greeks, the
:44:11. > :44:16.Germans, ul of them there, that is unification. I reckon in Glasgow,
:44:17. > :44:21.as I came here this morning, the swathes of bunting and Union Jacks
:44:21. > :44:25.missed me because the orange walk is not out today. So I never saw
:44:25. > :44:29.that but I'm not against, I'm not against the retrospective, I
:44:29. > :44:36.tonight think we should start hunting them down, the way we do
:44:36. > :44:41.MPs that screw with our taxes. On this day OK, there is old women
:44:41. > :44:45.who haved with drug addicts and prostitutes and helped women come
:44:45. > :44:51.off drugs and done this for many years. That is a great job. Being
:44:51. > :44:57.born into a job where you wear a nice frock, occasionally open a
:44:57. > :45:07.Teflon fact tri, I'm sure that is hard. My wee granny worked in a
:45:07. > :45:10.
:45:10. > :45:16.fish factory, that was a hard job. APPLAUSE On this day of days! Katie
:45:16. > :45:20.Grant? It is, I know a joke. I know you are a stand-up comedian. And a
:45:20. > :45:27.writer! You would not do it to anybody else, I have to say.
:45:27. > :45:33.would! Your granny did a wonderful job. The Queen does a good job.
:45:33. > :45:42.They don't do the same job. They don't, my granny had to apply for
:45:42. > :45:46.her job, you are absolutely right. We can be tolerant and diverse, she
:45:46. > :45:52.is everything from Brenda to Her Majesty. It is fantastic that we
:45:52. > :45:58.have that institution, you can have a bev y for her or put the ermine
:45:58. > :46:07.on it is a different thing. Alan I don't imagine you have
:46:07. > :46:12.bunting up at your place? I may go to a barbeque. People are getting
:46:12. > :46:16.together in their communities, this is good. We don't do enough of that
:46:16. > :46:20.in our society. I just don't think that we need the Queen to do it. We
:46:20. > :46:24.were talking about the benefit system, we are paying hundreds of
:46:24. > :46:28.millions of taxpayers' money in a recession to celebrate the fact...
:46:29. > :46:32.It is costing very little. You say that, but when there is a national
:46:32. > :46:38.strike called, the Government are the first to say how much is this
:46:38. > :46:42.harming the economy. Here we are having a Jubilee weekend where we
:46:42. > :46:48.all take the time off, no-one is saying anything about that
:46:48. > :46:55.Do you hold her in affection? have nothing against her. By I
:46:55. > :46:59.don't agree with inherited wealth. In a modern demo accuratic
:46:59. > :47:06.prefer President Boris Johnson? because of the word "President"
:47:06. > :47:15.ahead of it, ewould have a say in the choosing of the state. You say
:47:15. > :47:20.is the Jubilee showing Britain at its best? No it is showing Britain
:47:20. > :47:28.as uneven, or the BBC light in the unfawning coverage.
:47:28. > :47:32.What, right now? The BBC right now have an oasis... I am talking about
:47:32. > :47:38.across the four days. The coverage of this is unbelievable. I escaped
:47:38. > :47:41.to Scotland to get away from it. She has been on the thrown for 60
:47:41. > :47:47.years. Because nobody got a chance to
:47:47. > :47:51.elect her in or out. If you want her on the thrown for 60 years,
:47:51. > :47:56.then vote for her. Surely when we spent part of the
:47:56. > :47:59.programme earlier, discussing the Head of State in Syria, you must
:47:59. > :48:04.realise that we get good value for money.
:48:04. > :48:07.That is a good example, Bashar al- Assad! Alex Salmond has been
:48:07. > :48:12.converted. In an independent Scotland he wants to keep her as
:48:12. > :48:20.the Head of State. So let's have a photo with the
:48:20. > :48:25.Queen and Bashar al-Assad. You said pageantry, you also mentioned north
:48:25. > :48:34.Korean death camps. The idea that we should base our constitution and
:48:34. > :48:40.political system on the base of praj tri and tourism is absurd.
:48:40. > :48:50.-- pageantry. Let's celebrate democracy and not
:48:50. > :48:53.inherited privileges! We do. Did you give the Queen no credit
:48:53. > :48:57.for anything? Of course I do. It is interesting you make it
:48:57. > :49:01.personal about the Queen. This is her day? Let's have this
:49:01. > :49:06.discussion when Charles is the king. I find it interesting that
:49:06. > :49:09.monarchists say that they support the traditions, but when the polls
:49:09. > :49:13.show that the people want the tradition to continue, they want
:49:13. > :49:18.William to continue it. Why is Glasgow not, sorry I know you are
:49:18. > :49:22.into this, I don't want to steal your moment, because it is a
:49:22. > :49:26.cracking hobby! But why is Glasgow not celebrating the Jubilee as
:49:26. > :49:33.much? And nobody talks about it. The problem is in Glasgow we have
:49:33. > :49:37.the problem of sectarianism with the Union flag... It has different
:49:37. > :49:42.baggage? If you have Union flags hanging out of the window, people
:49:42. > :49:47.don't think that man really likes the Queen, you are thinking oh, the
:49:47. > :49:55.orange walk is coming soon. That is the problem. We should have had the
:49:55. > :50:02.royal standard as a flag if you wanted to portray it, it has no BNP
:50:02. > :50:11.or connotations behind it. E d, let's personallise it, this is
:50:11. > :50:17.her day, a word on ent Queen? know -- a word on the? I her as a
:50:17. > :50:21.person. Not from the TV footage and so on. She is very down to earth,
:50:21. > :50:26.she is committed to the job she is doing. Which other country in the
:50:26. > :50:30.world can have a Head of State that's been in place for 60 years
:50:30. > :50:37.and given steady, good counsel all of that time, regardless of whether
:50:37. > :50:44.you are aist or not. I mean, unless you go to some of the dir takeships,
:50:44. > :50:52.like... Like France, Germany, the United States? If you go to that
:50:52. > :50:58.situation with a President, or Johnston or whatever, they are re-
:50:58. > :51:02.elected every eight years. So, she rises above it? She a
:51:02. > :51:05.apolitical above everyone and she is a steady influence in the
:51:05. > :51:09.country, regardless of whether it is England and Wales, Scotland or
:51:10. > :51:18.Ireland. She is the Queen of Britain.
:51:18. > :51:20.Prince Philip by her side today? is a wit. Very much so.
:51:20. > :51:28.APPLAUSE Has he got a wicked sense of
:51:29. > :51:36.humour? Absolutely. I will give him an open spot on a
:51:36. > :51:40.comedy gag! See how he does. No, I suppose because I live in
:51:40. > :51:44.Crathie I happen to be in a position to meet the retrospective,
:51:44. > :51:50.she will stop and speak to you if you are out on the golf course,
:51:50. > :51:55.they all do. They are just like good neighbours.
:51:55. > :52:00.That is the way they have always been.
:52:00. > :52:04.You were nodding all the way through that so you think she has
:52:04. > :52:08.done a wonderful job and this is a great cause for celebration? I do
:52:08. > :52:11.think it is a great cause for celebration. There are not many
:52:11. > :52:15.countries have the monarchy, the Queen. They are talking about the
:52:15. > :52:20.tax and the money that has been spent, but they also bring a lot of
:52:20. > :52:25.money into the country, tourism.That Is a point I would
:52:25. > :52:31.like to make. On one of the News Channels on Friday night, they said
:52:31. > :52:37.that the cost of this Jubilee celebrations in London, the Thames
:52:37. > :52:44.Pageant today has been paid for by private donations. All of the rest
:52:44. > :52:48.of the celebrations a -- amounts to �3 million. The comment made by the
:52:48. > :52:53.commentator, the income generated is priceless.
:52:54. > :53:00.That is lovely that she knows a lot of private donations it was
:53:00. > :53:05.provided for by private donations, she knows such rich people. We have
:53:05. > :53:08.one in four children in Scotland living in poverty, maybe private
:53:08. > :53:15.donations would help them as Westminster.
:53:15. > :53:19.We should go back to the origin of Jubilee, that was to free debts,
:53:19. > :53:24.free slaves and give back the land to people that owned. To reflect on
:53:24. > :53:31.what we did well and to put up our hands to say this is what we have
:53:31. > :53:35.to do better. That, I wish we would Well, you said yourself that the
:53:35. > :53:40.Queen is good value for money, there was a figure that was said
:53:40. > :53:44.that there is like 66 pence mer per day, per person, but that is not
:53:45. > :53:50.true if you add on the security and the grants and unpaid tax it comes
:53:50. > :53:57.up to about �150 million a year. Now, if we were to have elected
:53:58. > :54:01.President like the one in Ireland that would cost 5% of that, 95% of
:54:01. > :54:05.that �150 million could be better spent. I think.
:54:05. > :54:12.In reference to the question in terms of how it presents Britain at
:54:12. > :54:16.its best, because we live in such a richly diverse and multiculture
:54:16. > :54:21.nation that is Britain it would be good to join into the celebrations
:54:21. > :54:27.that mark the cause of say the festivals such as for example
:54:27. > :54:31.marking the cause of the months's long fast at the end which is Eid
:54:31. > :54:35.and so on. But people do that, don't they?
:54:35. > :54:41.they do, but to make more of a hype about it
:54:41. > :54:45.You have been looking Grumpy! is not about the cost. I don't care
:54:45. > :54:50.about the cost. He sounds like George Bush now!
:54:50. > :54:55.is not about the cost. The cost is a red herring. The issue is the
:54:55. > :55:01.symbolism. We live in a deeply unequal society. When you celebrate
:55:01. > :55:07.the monarchy, you are celebrating inequality. A group of people
:55:07. > :55:11.allowed to rule over us. Does she not rule over the waves?
:55:11. > :55:15.As Head of State, as head of the Church of England, et cetera, we
:55:15. > :55:20.are privilegeing small family of people who were not elected, who
:55:20. > :55:23.are there simply by accident of birth. I don't think that is a good
:55:23. > :55:28.thing to teach our children. That is a respectable republican
:55:28. > :55:35.argument to put forward, but the question now simply to pose is
:55:35. > :55:39.this: We are seeing wauf-to- wall coverage of the Jubilee as we are
:55:39. > :55:44.of the Olympic torch, where are the mass protests saying down with the
:55:44. > :55:50.Queen. They are here in the studio! Does
:55:50. > :55:56.that not tell you something? Just because my argument is not popular,
:55:56. > :56:02.does not make it wrong! If arcy is so popular, vote them N
:56:02. > :56:08.Most people support it I like Katie's piece when she said
:56:08. > :56:13.that the whole world has eyes on Britain, but I'm sorry, people in
:56:13. > :56:18.Spain and Greece are not watching this coverage! They are watching it
:56:18. > :56:21.in Australia! I was in America at the time of the Royal Wedding. I
:56:21. > :56:25.was flicking through the television station, they were obsessed with it.
:56:25. > :56:30.Is that the Britain, I know you are not keen on the concept of Britain
:56:30. > :56:35.perse, but is that the country that you want the world to see? I wanted
:56:35. > :56:38.to touch on that. We have to accept that Britain has been and is a four
:56:38. > :56:43.different nation states and what makes people tick in Scotland does
:56:43. > :56:47.not make people in other parts of the United Kingdom tick. The poll
:56:47. > :56:54.that came out showed in England 75% of people in England were inspired
:56:54. > :57:01.by the Queen, by their identity. That figure was only 40%, Robert
:57:01. > :57:05.Burns was 85% about what makes you feel inspired to be Scottish. So
:57:05. > :57:13.different things... Salmond is going to maintain the monarchy of
:57:13. > :57:18.Scotland when he wants to have an independent nation, he wants the
:57:18. > :57:25.Queen to stay. What is that saying? I think when a
:57:25. > :57:30.country is ready to move fron the monarchy, -- move on from the
:57:30. > :57:32.monarchy, taking Jamaica, this year, 50 years, they said OK, that the
:57:33. > :57:37.people of Jamaica are ready to be independent.
:57:37. > :57:43.If you are ready to be independent it is a different system? You are
:57:43. > :57:47.looking uncomfortable now? I am not bothered about the face on coins,
:57:47. > :57:51.the stamps, this is not about flags, anthems but the power to control
:57:51. > :57:55.here in the best interests of Scottish people. There is a poll
:57:55. > :57:59.that says that Scots respected Billy Connolly more than the Queen.
:57:59. > :58:03.That was a recent poll. I think that a lot of people it is a
:58:03. > :58:13.generational thing now. The older generation, and total respect...
:58:13. > :58:17.
:58:17. > :58:22.There you go, King Billy!? He has a different religion! Charles
:58:22. > :58:27.Kennedy? We have in the course of the programme talked about two
:58:27. > :58:31.issues, another country and a domestic, a huge issue facing us,
:58:31. > :58:37.welfare. To both extents, the situation is broken, how can you
:58:37. > :58:40.fix it, make it better? Sometimes in life it is worth saying if it
:58:40. > :58:42.ain't broke, don't fix it. Thank you very That's it for this