:00:28. > :00:33.Good morning and welcome to The Big Questions. We are in Peckham, at
:00:33. > :00:36.the Harris Academy. Tomorrow Occupy will have been encamped outside St
:00:37. > :00:41.Paul's Cathedral for 100 days. They are not likely to be there much
:00:41. > :00:46.longer. On Wednesday the City of London Corporation won of High
:00:46. > :00:49.Court case to evict them. Our first big question, do we need to protect
:00:49. > :00:53.the right to protest? Some of the protesters are here to put their
:00:53. > :00:58.case. The coalition Government wants us to be happier so they have
:00:58. > :01:02.tried to find ways of raising our levels of contentment. The next big
:01:02. > :01:06.question, should governments care about happiness? Alastair Campbell
:01:06. > :01:11.is with the Government on this one. This weekend is the Feast of St
:01:11. > :01:16.Agnes, the patron saint of chastity and young girls. What better time
:01:16. > :01:22.to ask our next question? There sex-education encourage teenage
:01:22. > :01:32.sex? Nadine Dorries wants to encourage more young girls to say
:01:32. > :01:35.Well come. The Mayor of London described Occupy as baffling
:01:35. > :01:42.protest against capitalism that have led to not a single
:01:42. > :01:45.resignation of a banker but of three clerics. Christian groups
:01:45. > :01:49.have pledged to protect the protesters from the bailiffs are
:01:49. > :01:56.withering of prayer. They would not have been outside the Cathedral at
:01:56. > :02:05.all if swathes of the engine public's -- ancient public spaces
:02:05. > :02:09.had not been turned into private property. We have seen many people
:02:09. > :02:17.wrongfully arrested for trumped-up charges. I know people have been
:02:17. > :02:20.arrested for criminal damage for treacle on a tablecloth or
:02:20. > :02:24.possession of an offensive weapon, the bicycle lock, and somebody
:02:24. > :02:28.could not go home at Christmas because he had leaflets in his back.
:02:28. > :02:32.Lots of public money is being spent on people that are trying to change
:02:32. > :02:40.is unjust world in a peaceful way. Do you think it is verging on the
:02:40. > :02:44.authoritarian? I do. I think it is scarily verging on it. There is
:02:44. > :02:49.this other situation. My experience that Occupy is that on a number of
:02:49. > :02:55.occasions I have been walking with some other members of the grid,
:02:55. > :03:00.towards the student protest, for instance, and it happened on the
:03:00. > :03:04.public sector workers' strike, and if you get a few of us walking down
:03:04. > :03:07.at the Street, there is a line of police that wants to stop and
:03:07. > :03:11.search us. Everywhere I look there are groups of people walking
:03:11. > :03:17.together up and down, and they are not being stopped. It is constant.
:03:17. > :03:23.It almost verges on harassment. Boris Johnson has also described
:03:23. > :03:29.you as hand smoking fornicating hippies in crusty little tents. --
:03:29. > :03:33.cannabis smoking. Yes, we are not all hippies. There are hippies of
:03:33. > :03:41.course, but there are lots of other people. There are people in all
:03:41. > :03:47.kinds of work, teachers, security guards, former soldiers, everybody.
:03:47. > :03:52.When we say we are the 99%, we do not mean that 99% of people are
:03:53. > :03:58.outside protesting. Women that we are from 99% of all walks of life.
:03:58. > :04:01.-- we mean that. Why are you wearing your mask? If I am part of
:04:01. > :04:08.the anonymous collective and we believe we have the right to remain
:04:08. > :04:11.anonymous. What are you protesting about? We have a situation that the
:04:11. > :04:15.vast majority of people realise cannot be sustained and is damaging
:04:15. > :04:18.for the vast majority. Not to get ahead of ourselves in a debate, but
:04:18. > :04:26.the idea of David Cameron talking about increasing happiness at the
:04:26. > :04:34.same time as pursuing these policies is nonsensical. What is
:04:34. > :04:41.the main thing for you? One thing? We have and 99% and the 1%
:04:41. > :04:47.situation, which is a major one for me. 1% of the world's population is
:04:47. > :04:52.controlling the wealth. The rest of us, the 99%, are really struggling
:04:53. > :04:56.to make a decent living. There are solutions. What do you think,
:04:56. > :05:02.Nadine Dorries? Everybody has the right to protest but I think there
:05:02. > :05:06.reaches a level when it crosses over a boundary and becomes a
:05:06. > :05:10.situation that affects the lives of others. Your point about bordering
:05:10. > :05:14.on harassment, an interesting phenomenon has occurred recently
:05:14. > :05:17.when MPs have noticed that people coming to visit us at the House of
:05:17. > :05:21.Commons are being stopped by security and not allowed in because
:05:21. > :05:25.in their backs they have political leaflets. This is absolutely
:05:25. > :05:28.bizarre because the kind of people that come to see us in the House of
:05:28. > :05:33.Commons 10 to be political and are likely to be carrying political
:05:33. > :05:38.leaflets. -- tend to be political. That is strange and I agree with
:05:38. > :05:42.you on that. With the protest at St Paul's, many people want to visit
:05:42. > :05:45.it and enjoy St Paul's because it is a tourist destination, and I
:05:45. > :05:50.think perhaps the protest in that particular spot has become almost
:05:50. > :05:58.out of control. Everybody has a right to protest, but...
:05:58. > :06:02.The PR has done you no good because they have been playing us on the
:06:02. > :06:07.minimum wage cleaning up after you and people not being able to access
:06:07. > :06:11.the Cathedral. On that last point, people cleaning up after us, people
:06:11. > :06:17.on camp clean up every single day. We clean up, we sweep the steps of
:06:17. > :06:21.St Paul's Cathedral. I don't think the cleaners are lying. If you turn
:06:21. > :06:28.up in the early hours of the morning, you will suit people
:06:28. > :06:33.sweeping up on St Paul's. -- you will see people. I agree with your
:06:33. > :06:38.right to protest and I share some of the concerns but you have raised,
:06:38. > :06:41.such as bailing out bangs, but I don't think protesting means that
:06:41. > :06:46.you can have a permanent encampment for as long as you want on public
:06:46. > :06:49.space. My advice would be that if you do represent the 99%, you
:06:49. > :06:54.should have no trouble winning the next general election with a
:06:54. > :06:57.crushing majority. You will not need anything like 99% of the vote
:06:57. > :07:04.to form the next Government. My advice would be to focus some of
:07:04. > :07:09.your efforts on that. That, it is based on a fantasy that we all have
:07:09. > :07:14.equal access to the population generally. -- that point is based
:07:14. > :07:18.on. 80% in very clearly to the right and have been very determined
:07:18. > :07:23.from the beginning to divert that away from the crucial issues that
:07:23. > :07:27.we represent. The vast majority of people and all the major political
:07:27. > :07:30.parties have been forced to engage with the issues of inequality and
:07:30. > :07:35.financial regulation. There are solutions. People have been told by
:07:35. > :07:38.the same media that there are no solutions. The 20th century have to
:07:38. > :07:42.do economically. We have the depression, we had the solutions
:07:42. > :07:45.which brought capitalism under control for the first time in 250
:07:45. > :07:50.years. We have virtually no crisis for 40 years because the
:07:50. > :07:53.regulations were in place. We removed them and now here we are.
:07:53. > :07:56.agree to the right to protest and I don't think the police should take
:07:56. > :08:01.you away. I think you are effectively turning the centre of
:08:01. > :08:05.London, one of the great cities of the world, into a middle-class
:08:05. > :08:09.shantytown. The real problem with that is that you are defending your
:08:09. > :08:12.right to occupy there but you are a tiny minority of campers. It is
:08:12. > :08:19.intruding on the rest of the public's ability to enjoy his Ed
:08:19. > :08:23.Balls and London. Have you been down there? Several times. If
:08:23. > :08:30.Nadine Dorries is worried about Clunas, then the Government should
:08:30. > :08:33.pay them a living wage. -- cleaners. When Tony Benn retired, he said he
:08:33. > :08:37.was leaving the House of Commons to concentrate on politics. It is
:08:37. > :08:40.movement that changes things and politicians only respond to the
:08:40. > :08:45.agendas set by movements. When agendas changed, the politicians
:08:45. > :08:50.have to change, too. Is the right to protest so is he being
:08:50. > :08:54.threatened in this country? I think it is. -- seriously being
:08:54. > :08:57.threatened. We are paying homage to the triple A credit rating and we
:08:57. > :09:06.have to stand up and say this is nonsense and challenged the
:09:06. > :09:11.political consensus. Your Government was keen to stifle
:09:11. > :09:17.protest. They cleaned up Parliament Square. A gentleman barracked the
:09:17. > :09:26.Labour Party conference and he was frogmarched out of the case. This
:09:26. > :09:30.started in your Government. watched the Iron Lady last night,
:09:31. > :09:34.and I think the Occupy movement has had some good press, and I think
:09:34. > :09:37.you are in danger of giving the impression that you are getting a
:09:37. > :09:42.hard time, but they think your arguments are beginning to resonate
:09:42. > :09:46.and you should concentrate on that. What you said about the protest
:09:46. > :09:50.movement can have a huge impact on the world of change. You should be
:09:51. > :09:55.enjoying the fact that last week all three party leaders were making
:09:55. > :09:59.speeches that were moving on to your territory. For you to come on
:09:59. > :10:03.and say it is all about police brutality, thirsty compare
:10:03. > :10:06.yourselves to the way the miners were treated, and secondly
:10:06. > :10:13.understand that your arguments are beginning to China and that is
:10:13. > :10:18.important. But this accelerated under the Government that you
:10:18. > :10:23.worked for. There was a massive march against the wall. There is a
:10:23. > :10:26.near permanent protest outside Parliament. There are lots of
:10:26. > :10:30.balance is going on. I presume whatever we think about Parliament
:10:30. > :10:35.we do support it being right at the heart of our democracy. The Speaker
:10:35. > :10:38.has a responsibility to make sure that MPs can get into the House of
:10:38. > :10:42.Commons. If it is permanently ringed by protesters then that
:10:43. > :10:46.makes Parliament's functioning impossible. The police then have to
:10:46. > :10:49.deal with that. I think you guys should carry on making your
:10:49. > :10:54.argument and I think you have been doing a pretty good job on that.
:10:54. > :10:57.And you should complain less about the unfair treatment.
:10:57. > :11:04.difficulty is that the media does not want to talk about the real
:11:04. > :11:08.issues. Excuse me, let me speak. I think you get enough air time. We
:11:08. > :11:11.cannot talk about the real issue is because the media does not want to
:11:11. > :11:15.talk about the real issues. We are not talking about them now, we are
:11:15. > :11:19.talking about the right to protest. The question is not how to create
:11:19. > :11:23.an equal society and make places more fair. This is meant to be a
:11:24. > :11:27.moral ethics show. There are 3000 references in the Bible to money
:11:27. > :11:32.and poverty. We're not talking about money and poverty, we are
:11:32. > :11:39.talking about the right to protest. Unfortunately we are controlled by
:11:39. > :11:43.what the media is interested in. Mark Littlewood, you are screaming
:11:43. > :11:48.to come back in. I hate to say it but I agree with Alastair Campbell.
:11:48. > :11:53.Stop the world, I want to get off. The Occupy movement has had
:11:53. > :11:56.colossal airtime and coverage. You're not that numerous. There are
:11:56. > :12:00.150 of you at St Paul's. I understand it is difficult
:12:00. > :12:03.sometimes but you are appearing on programmes and to get a hard time
:12:03. > :12:08.and people cross-examine you and some newspapers do not write to up
:12:08. > :12:12.in the words you want to be described in. The amount of
:12:12. > :12:17.publicity you have had compared to the number of people that you are
:12:17. > :12:20.is monumental. You have written about this. Is our right to protest,
:12:20. > :12:26.to get on the streets and to March, two former camp, to say that
:12:26. > :12:35.something is wrong, we did not gain anything in this country without
:12:35. > :12:38.being able to do that. Is that being threatened? Everybody has
:12:38. > :12:41.said that they support the right to peaceful protest. When you look at
:12:41. > :12:49.what has happened in the City of London, there is Virgin know where
:12:49. > :12:54.available in the City of London for protest. -- virtually nowhere. The
:12:54. > :13:01.city has been privatised over the last 15 years. The reason why the
:13:01. > :13:05.protesters are outside St Paul's is not because they wanted to camp
:13:05. > :13:08.there. It is the Stock Exchange protest and they wanted to cabin
:13:08. > :13:13.Paternoster Square but it is private property and so is
:13:13. > :13:17.virtually the rest of the City. The area around St Paul's is virtually
:13:17. > :13:21.the only public land in the whole of the City of London. But the
:13:21. > :13:25.Corporation of London to use as its defence the safeguarding of the
:13:25. > :13:29.public highway, and to say that they support the right to peaceful
:13:29. > :13:32.protest, is actually totally hypocritical. There is nowhere in
:13:33. > :13:37.the City available for public protest because it has all been
:13:37. > :13:43.privatised. It is not just the corporation. This is a protest we
:13:43. > :13:47.have seen in all our towns and cities. There are lots of ways and
:13:47. > :13:55.lots of people that protest in London on almost a daily basis. On
:13:55. > :14:01.Friday there was a protest by the British humanist Association.
:14:01. > :14:08.heard about that? Lots of people did. It was on the news. On a daily
:14:08. > :14:12.basis, people are protesting. people need to be within the City
:14:12. > :14:16.of London. If we could not protest in London it would be a travesty. I
:14:16. > :14:20.have been on many much as myself and it happens all the time but
:14:20. > :14:24.what you say it is not true. There is nowhere else in the City of
:14:24. > :14:28.London that they can protest. This protest is targeting the City.
:14:28. > :14:37.Ferris worked for the Met Police for many years. How would you have
:14:37. > :14:40.I don't see this as any different to sit down protests. As soon as
:14:40. > :14:44.they sat down, they were obstructing the public highway,
:14:44. > :14:47.they were removed and that was the end of that. These people are all
:14:47. > :14:51.obstructing the public highway, I would not have allowed them to camp
:14:51. > :14:56.there in the first place. The first 10, you would have moved it?
:14:56. > :15:00.Highway obstruction, very simple, let the magistrates' court decide.
:15:00. > :15:03.The judgments about the city protest and the Parliament Square
:15:03. > :15:10.protest, the judge clearly said it is highway obstruction and that is
:15:10. > :15:13.why he ordered the their removal. We have actually left roads for the
:15:13. > :15:17.public to get around us. They have got routes through us. We have left
:15:17. > :15:23.the steps and the area in front of the cathedral clear. We're not
:15:23. > :15:27.blocking anyone at all. understand that. I was talking to
:15:27. > :15:31.somebody who sees St Paul's Cathedral as the iconic symbol of
:15:31. > :15:36.Londoners in the Blitz. He said he has been going there since 1944, he
:15:36. > :15:40.walks around, he said he has had a will bright to walk around whether
:15:40. > :15:46.he likes. He said he went they yesterday and he can't walk when he
:15:46. > :15:49.wants to walk. -- went there yesterday. It is also an iconic
:15:49. > :15:53.reduce speed -- building, would Jesus have been with these people?
:15:53. > :15:59.These are tough theological questions, for me, yes, of course
:15:59. > :16:04.he would. My question to the chap from the Met, we do have moved on
:16:04. > :16:09.the suffragettes if they were causing an obstruction? They were
:16:09. > :16:12.moved on. But they went back and they kept obstructing. The people
:16:12. > :16:15.that moved them on were in the wrong, history teaches us. We will
:16:15. > :16:24.look back on the occupy movement and realise that these people were
:16:24. > :16:28.right. I am interested in this theological question that you raced,
:16:28. > :16:30.or did I raised it? I can't remember. Nadine, you are a
:16:30. > :16:36.religious person, Jonathan said Jesus would have been with these
:16:36. > :16:42.people. I am a Christian, but I don't need to be portrayed as this
:16:42. > :16:47.religious... I do believe in Jesus and Jesus was well known in the
:16:47. > :16:50.Bible for taking on the Pharisees and turning the tables and Jesus
:16:50. > :16:57.probably would have been. But I don't think he would have blocked
:16:57. > :17:06.the steps to the church. They got rid of Jesus, the politicians got
:17:06. > :17:10.rid of Jesus... When Jesus turned over the temple, the tables in the
:17:10. > :17:13.temple, it was a profoundly economic point he was making. He
:17:13. > :17:17.was annoying, he rubbed the political and religious leaders of
:17:17. > :17:23.his day up the wrong day, he was on the side of right and they realised
:17:23. > :17:30.they needed to get rid of him as a result. I heard you say, read your
:17:30. > :17:34.Bible, I love hearing that in a Northern Irish accent. The two
:17:34. > :17:37.things that the authorities first attacked Jesus for were purity laws
:17:37. > :17:41.and misuse of the temple grounds. How was he misusing the temple
:17:41. > :17:44.grounds? He was talking to people about the need to take on the
:17:44. > :17:48.economic power, to take on the Empire they were being occupied by.
:17:48. > :17:52.He believed in a passionate revolution, he was not about
:17:52. > :17:56.violence. That is what this movement is about. There were riots
:17:56. > :18:00.last year. It is important that we take the energy that is concerned
:18:00. > :18:06.with changing things and channel it into productive, democratic spaces.
:18:06. > :18:10.It is not just symbolic, it creates a -- democratic forum. I think
:18:10. > :18:15.Jesus would have kept out of the political debates. I think his
:18:15. > :18:20.changing lives was due to the moral heart of values that people should
:18:20. > :18:23.have. The political debates can go on either side. You can have the
:18:23. > :18:27.different political groups and the different minority groups fighting
:18:27. > :18:33.each other, but I think Jesus wanted to change the hearts of the
:18:33. > :18:38.people. It was the politics that had to fit into what Jesus said.
:18:38. > :18:43.One of the differences between this protest and the suffragettes was
:18:43. > :18:46.they had a clear, coherent message. With Occupy, it tends to be the
:18:46. > :18:52.occupation that is the message. I don't think you have a clear sense
:18:52. > :18:55.of what you want to argue. I wanted to make one final point about
:18:55. > :19:00.blocking the route, it is not just the fact that the public needs to
:19:00. > :19:02.walk around it, it is the fact that you are turning the centre of
:19:02. > :19:08.London into this grubber a Glastonbury, this middle-class
:19:08. > :19:14.shanty town which is deeply on present -- grubby Glastonbury.
:19:14. > :19:19.would rather have a shanty town and loads of bankers doing coke. I am
:19:19. > :19:24.opposed to lying on TV. We have never got respect. Secondly, we
:19:24. > :19:31.have routes through for everyone to get through. Thirdly, we do have a
:19:31. > :19:37.clear message. What is it? Just because you don't understand it, it
:19:37. > :19:41.does not mean we have no message. What is it? We are anti- corruption
:19:41. > :19:44.in the banking system and anti- corruption within the government,
:19:44. > :19:50.and anti- the injustices in the world. Just because there are
:19:50. > :19:53.multiple things, it does not mean that we don't have a message.
:19:53. > :20:00.reason we have this camp is because this isn't a simple issue, it is
:20:00. > :20:04.not about a single law changed. It is about facing a systematic
:20:04. > :20:08.problem that has got worse and worse in the last 30 years,
:20:08. > :20:12.democratic deficit which is barely talked about in the media.
:20:12. > :20:19.Academics have been talking about it, the diva pacts -- de facto
:20:19. > :20:23.democratic power has moved to the 1%. I am not sure there is one in
:20:23. > :20:27.the way that Occupy insist. I am very concerned... I am against the
:20:27. > :20:32.injustices in the world, who would say they are in favour of half of
:20:32. > :20:35.the injustices? Do you actually have... Because you have been
:20:35. > :20:40.sitting in these tents talking to each other for some considerable
:20:40. > :20:45.time, have you actually got two or three coherent, understandable
:20:45. > :20:52.policy prescriptions that you wish to introduce? No tax havens,
:20:52. > :20:56.progressive taxation. Stop giving the banks so much power. Start
:20:56. > :21:00.using debt free money, rather than dead money. The banks create money
:21:00. > :21:09.and it is automatically in debt. We need the government to print its
:21:10. > :21:14.own currency and monitor that, so I watched the J Edgar film last
:21:14. > :21:18.night, it was a fantastic film. There was on amazing scene, I don't
:21:18. > :21:22.know if it is artistic licence, but J Edgar Hoover is watching Martin
:21:22. > :21:27.Luther King making the I Have A Dream speech. If you think about
:21:27. > :21:32.the fight for blacks to get the vote in America, along the way,
:21:32. > :21:37.there is a big sense of struggle. Voices rise up against them, voices
:21:37. > :21:41.of authority rise up against them and people keep struggling. I don't
:21:41. > :21:45.care if they are incoherent, I think a lot of the things they are
:21:45. > :21:49.saying are resonating, people are feeling that the world is not quite
:21:49. > :21:52.right at the moment. That is what they should concentrate on, and not
:21:52. > :21:57.go around saying they are being beaten up by the police the whole
:21:57. > :22:01.time, because I don't believe they are. Thank you all very much indeed.
:22:01. > :22:07.If you would like to share your views about that debate, please
:22:07. > :22:12.visit our website. We are also debating live from the Harris
:22:12. > :22:16.Academy in Peckham, should governments care about happiness?
:22:16. > :22:20.And does sex education encourage teenage sex? Tell us what do you
:22:20. > :22:27.think and send us ideas for future debates, or any general comments
:22:27. > :22:30.you would like to make about the programme. The government may have
:22:31. > :22:36.made most of us poorer to pay off the debts, but they are determined
:22:36. > :22:39.not to make us any more miserable. After all, the best things in life
:22:39. > :22:45.are meant to be free. Increasing our happiness is going to be at the
:22:45. > :22:51.heart of assessing every government policy from now on. Should
:22:51. > :22:57.governments care about happiness? The American constitution has those
:22:57. > :22:59.fantastic words, Mark Littlewood, one of the most famous political
:22:59. > :23:04.documents in the history of the world, about the pursuit of
:23:04. > :23:07.happiness. Clearly, the Government must facilitate that. It actually
:23:08. > :23:11.says every individual should have life, liberty and the pursuit of
:23:11. > :23:15.happiness, not that the Senate and the President should organise your
:23:15. > :23:20.happiness for you. The problem is that when you start looking at the
:23:20. > :23:25.numbers, and lots of governments in different countries ask you how
:23:25. > :23:28.happy you are, how stressed you are, and the problem is to try and find
:23:28. > :23:34.any correlation between those numbers at any sort of government
:23:34. > :23:38.policy. For example, inequality in the UK has increased enormously in
:23:38. > :23:44.the last 30 or 40 years. This doesn't seem to have had any impact
:23:44. > :23:47.upwards or downwards on our happiness caused, which have been
:23:47. > :23:51.consistent -- happiness scores. There has been a massive increase
:23:51. > :23:55.in the welfare state, that has not measurably it up lifted our
:23:55. > :24:00.happiness course. If you can find any correlation at all, by and
:24:00. > :24:04.large, broadly, and we have looked at data across 120 countries, you
:24:04. > :24:12.find as people get richer, they get happier. It is not the only thing
:24:12. > :24:18.that matters, but by and large, as they get richer, they get happier.
:24:18. > :24:21.Our research tackles this. It is not the only thing. This year, I
:24:21. > :24:27.probably care more about Southampton Football Club getting
:24:27. > :24:33.promoted than I do about a pay rise. What about the perception that we
:24:33. > :24:38.are so much wealthier in comparison to previous generations, but we
:24:38. > :24:43.don't seem to be happier? numbers for the UK have been
:24:43. > :24:48.bouncing along at the same level for about 40 years. There are
:24:48. > :24:52.little ups and downs, but the basic trend is incredibly flat for 40
:24:52. > :24:55.years. If you are rarely willing to take the leap and say why could
:24:55. > :25:00.that be, it seems that almost nothing has an impact on it. You
:25:00. > :25:03.are right, we have got a lot richer. We have also had major recessions
:25:03. > :25:09.and major booms, none of that seemed to have a particular impact.
:25:09. > :25:16.We have seen inequality enormously in space -- increase, public
:25:16. > :25:19.spending increased. This is making Alastair Campbell very unhappy.
:25:19. > :25:23.said in the introduction, I am with the government on this one. I am
:25:23. > :25:27.with the government on putting well-being of unhappiness as one of
:25:27. > :25:30.the factors of the agenda when considering policy. They now --
:25:30. > :25:35.well-being and happiness. They now have to show they can walk the walk
:25:35. > :25:39.as well as talk the talk. In this book, there is a graphic of our GDP
:25:39. > :25:44.going up and up and up, and happiness stays like that. The only
:25:44. > :25:48.point at which happiness and income appear to be going together is when
:25:48. > :25:53.people move from a low income, to a middle income. Once you get be on
:25:53. > :25:58.that, most of the really miserable people I know tend to be very rich
:25:58. > :26:02.-- once you get beyond that. I think as a government, if they are
:26:02. > :26:07.serious, back to the Occupy point, the best way to make more people
:26:07. > :26:12.happy is too seriously understand that gap between the top and bottom
:26:12. > :26:19.has to be improved, from the perspective of the people at the
:26:19. > :26:25.bottom 5th. We can trade crafts, we should probably trade books as well.
:26:25. > :26:32.You can also find there is no correlation between inequality
:26:32. > :26:37.going up. That is i point. Statistically, what makes us happy?
:26:37. > :26:43.-- that is my point. Economic growth is one of the drivers. They
:26:43. > :26:49.are also things, heterosexual marriage... People seem to be
:26:49. > :26:52.essentially happier. Believing in God, they say. People who believe
:26:52. > :26:57.in God. I do not want this government or any other government
:26:57. > :27:02.to start to bring in policies that encourage people to be heterosexual,
:27:02. > :27:06.married or forcing them to believe in God. You mentioned heterosexual
:27:06. > :27:09.marriage. Whittled earlier about the importance of protest movement.
:27:09. > :27:13.I thought -- we talked earlier. One of the extraordinary things that
:27:13. > :27:17.the last Labour government did in relation to gay marriage, that made
:27:17. > :27:22.a lot of people happy. People who had been made unhappy because of
:27:22. > :27:29.the prejudice and the hammer phobia... The Iraq war made a lot
:27:29. > :27:33.of people unhappy. -- and homophobia. I am heterosexual but
:27:33. > :27:42.not married. The evidence shows that if you are in a heterosexual
:27:42. > :27:46.marriage, by and large, you are happier. These are figures that
:27:46. > :27:51.have been quoted to us are just completely wrong. Completely
:27:51. > :27:55.misinformed. Just to follow on from Alastair Campbell's point,
:27:55. > :28:00.happiness has not correlated with increasing growth in GDP, but the
:28:00. > :28:03.direct correlation that we can see is that as inequality has risen, so
:28:03. > :28:08.have fear and distrust between people. Fear of crime has actually
:28:08. > :28:12.sought, and fear of crime is direct... Crime has fallen and
:28:12. > :28:16.there is a paradox. Crime is relatively low over the last 15
:28:16. > :28:20.years, and yet fear of crime is right up there. That directly
:28:20. > :28:24.correlates with the growing inequalities in this massive gap
:28:24. > :28:29.between rich and poor. Now, fear and unhappiness are very closely
:28:29. > :28:34.related as well. What we have started to see is the creation of
:28:34. > :28:39.this far more fearful and unequal society, and the two are absolutely
:28:39. > :28:43.linked. Last week it was announced that we are probably already in a
:28:43. > :28:47.recession again. The government is spending �2 million of public money
:28:47. > :28:51.to look into happiness at that time. I think they should spend some time
:28:51. > :28:55.showing some real leadership to get out of the economic crisis. This
:28:55. > :28:59.reeks of a diversion exercise. Let's teach the public that the
:28:59. > :29:02.good things in life are free, we should focus on happiness rather
:29:02. > :29:06.than economic growth. I would argue, to defend the right to be unhappy.
:29:06. > :29:10.I think there are lot of things we should be dissatisfied about. A lot
:29:10. > :29:14.of things we should be complaining about and striving to make better.
:29:14. > :29:19.Being told you need to meditate or help people so you feel better is
:29:19. > :29:24.really problematic. Mark Williamson, you have a list of things that can
:29:24. > :29:29.make a big difference to happiness. One of which was looking at things
:29:29. > :29:37.which we should be grateful for. Looking for the good in others.
:29:37. > :29:41.Trying something new every day, Happiness comes from our attitude
:29:41. > :29:45.and behaviour and the circumstances that we are run. Individual
:29:45. > :29:48.behaviour, the way we treat each other, the way we are in
:29:48. > :29:52.communities, that matters. The Government can influence your well-
:29:52. > :29:55.being. Regardless of your political views, the Government can affect
:29:55. > :30:00.well-being and it is right that they should be measuring the impact
:30:00. > :30:05.of policies on our lives. What other practical tips are there?
:30:05. > :30:08.There is a huge amount of evidence coming from positive psychology
:30:08. > :30:12.about what consistently leads to happiness. The economy is a means
:30:12. > :30:18.to an end, and the end is a good life. It is relationships which
:30:19. > :30:25.come from a strong community. doing what you have got? The es,
:30:26. > :30:32.and being comfortable with what you are. -- being grateful for what you
:30:32. > :30:36.have got? Do we need the Government to do this? When they are being
:30:36. > :30:41.happiness experts, why does Alastair Campbell no better than us
:30:41. > :30:45.about what makes us happy? I don't. The way in which Government is
:30:45. > :30:49.approaching this is not sitting in an ivory tower deciding what makes
:30:49. > :30:55.people happy. That is very wrong. They are asking the nation how they
:30:55. > :30:59.feel about their lives, their community, their workplace. That is
:30:59. > :31:03.great. The crime statistics give you information that allow you to
:31:03. > :31:06.devise crime policies. If you can get into the British people in a
:31:06. > :31:09.way that is profound, you really find out what they think about
:31:09. > :31:14.their lives, that can help individuals and Government make
:31:15. > :31:20.decisions. At the moment, for every policy the Government has to think
:31:20. > :31:25.about social, economic, gender impact. Why not happiness? Does
:31:25. > :31:29.this help people in their lives? Measuring crime statistics is
:31:29. > :31:34.measuring an objective fact. They are hard to measure. We have just
:31:34. > :31:37.shown that fear has gone up. are right, but statistics are an
:31:38. > :31:43.objective fact in crime. There is considerable concern about the
:31:43. > :31:49.weight of evidence here. It is an objective situation, how are you
:31:49. > :31:53.feeling? Are you stressed? These are subjective situations. They are
:31:53. > :31:56.ring-fenced between top and bottom, one to 10. And we can find
:31:56. > :32:03.virtually no correlation between people's well-being numbers and
:32:03. > :32:07.anything the Government might do. Isn't this a problem? One person's
:32:07. > :32:13.happiness is another person's misery. A high-speed train line
:32:13. > :32:17.might somebody ecstatic and some people will be distressed that the
:32:17. > :32:22.ancient woodland has been carved up. It is very vague, nebulous and
:32:22. > :32:27.difficult to calibrate. It is difficult to calibrate but it is
:32:27. > :32:30.something that you say to policy makers, think-tanks, civil servants.
:32:30. > :32:35.When you are analysing, developing policy, at least think about the
:32:35. > :32:39.impact upon individuals and communities and allow it to inform
:32:39. > :32:44.the policy-making process. G Babar Ahmad some people happy and some
:32:44. > :32:51.people drug. -- cheap alcohol makes some people happy. And some people
:32:51. > :33:00.drunk. You bring your own route to the picnic. It is a very subjective
:33:00. > :33:04.thing. In Bhutan in 1972, they looked at national happiness
:33:04. > :33:10.instead of GDP. I think the Government is trying to divert
:33:10. > :33:15.attention. If it was looking at 10% GDP, they would not be looking at
:33:15. > :33:22.happiness. They are diverting attention to try to find the quest
:33:22. > :33:25.of happiness instead of improving GDP. I think there is a confusion
:33:25. > :33:30.here between happiness and well- being. I don't think we are here to
:33:30. > :33:34.be happy. We will not be happy all the time. We need to know how to
:33:34. > :33:38.handle things when times are bad. This is why our children are sad.
:33:38. > :33:42.The focus of the national curriculum has taken away from
:33:42. > :33:50.strategies which enable us to deal with it. Things like the arts,
:33:50. > :33:53.religion, origami, crockery, all of those things that the Government is
:33:53. > :33:56.responsible for have been systematically devalued in the
:33:56. > :34:00.national curriculum in favour of things that do not bring us
:34:00. > :34:08.happiness. There is an area where Government can influence it, and
:34:08. > :34:13.that is to restore some of those strategies within our schools as
:34:13. > :34:17.things that children will learn. Nadine Dorries, David Cameron is
:34:17. > :34:21.very keen on this idea. He has been talking about this for some years.
:34:21. > :34:26.And yet at the same time lots of people are being made very unhappy
:34:26. > :34:31.by many of his policies. Their pensions are threatened, their
:34:31. > :34:35.disability allowance being taken away, that makes them anxious.
:34:35. > :34:38.war in Iraq. There are lots of policies that governments bring in
:34:38. > :34:45.that people do not like. Whether they correlate to unhappiness is
:34:45. > :34:51.another thing, I think. That was an extremely good point. School is
:34:51. > :34:54.where so much happens at an early stage. There is no value placed any
:34:54. > :35:00.more at some of the aspects of education that actually enriched
:35:00. > :35:08.and enhance the influencing stage of a child's life, which carries on
:35:08. > :35:13.until later. And you have stopped academies. There are more academies
:35:13. > :35:18.and free schools. There are lots. Pimlico Academy, I can name lots.
:35:18. > :35:24.One in my constituency being built at the moment. A great academy. We
:35:24. > :35:27.are going of the subjects likely. Subjects like cooking in school,
:35:27. > :35:31.good history lessons that teach people the value of where we come
:35:31. > :35:35.from and who we are. All of these things add to the sense of who we
:35:35. > :35:41.are and purpose. They have been slowly eroded and taken away from
:35:41. > :35:45.education. But history lessons, that is entirely subjective.
:35:45. > :35:48.depends what you are teaching. Allowing academies and free schools
:35:48. > :35:53.to bring these subjects back on to the curriculum and teach them again
:35:53. > :35:55.will go some way to address this. This is a sticking plaster on
:35:55. > :35:59.something that is fundamentally wrong, for example the league
:35:59. > :36:04.tables and the culture of testing. Children competing against one
:36:04. > :36:08.another, schools competing. It is the same as the catalyst system,
:36:08. > :36:13.which is based on competition, which is why you get widening
:36:14. > :36:19.inequality. -- the capitalist system. His is very dangerous to
:36:19. > :36:23.look at statistics. It is a fact apparently that people in a
:36:23. > :36:26.heterosexual marriage are happier than those that are not. The other
:36:26. > :36:32.thing he mentioned were that people that our religious and believe in
:36:32. > :36:42.God are happy. Why is that? I know lots of miserable Christians! Let's
:36:42. > :36:44.
:36:44. > :36:47.face it! You should try God. You would feel better. I would hate to
:36:47. > :36:51.see the Government to encourage people to believe in God because it
:36:51. > :37:00.improves well-being. Before we embrace the Sabin is economics
:37:00. > :37:04.staff, let's be very cautious about it. -- happiness economics stuff.
:37:04. > :37:08.It seems that the people in Burma came out as happier than people in
:37:08. > :37:16.Sweden. I would be very nervous if the Swedish Government acted more
:37:16. > :37:22.like the Burmese Government. This lady's hand shot up a while ago.
:37:22. > :37:27.But morning. There are you happy? am very happy actually. -- good
:37:27. > :37:30.morning. Are you happy? One of the reasons is that I believe in Jesus
:37:30. > :37:35.Christ and that makes me realise that so many things in the world
:37:35. > :37:39.can be seen in a different way. all makes sense to you? Definitely.
:37:39. > :37:43.One of the points that this lady made which was overlooked was that
:37:43. > :37:47.we are not happy all of the time, which is true, but the way we deal
:37:47. > :37:53.with that is very important. My family are from Nigeria and Nigeria
:37:53. > :37:57.has been topped as one of the happiest countries in the world.
:37:57. > :38:04.That should be strange, there is so much poverty, but it is the way
:38:04. > :38:07.that the deal with these problems that is so important. People are
:38:07. > :38:09.making expressions about happiness and well-being. Of course it is
:38:09. > :38:14.nonsensical to so that somebody should be happy all the time. This
:38:14. > :38:18.is not what this is about. Happiness is broader than that,
:38:18. > :38:21.about relationships, our work life, and meaning. That is why religion
:38:22. > :38:25.matters because it gives people a sense of meaning and belonging. It
:38:25. > :38:29.is not about bureaucrats with a clipboard checking that we are
:38:29. > :38:33.smiling enough. It is focusing on the things that really matter.
:38:33. > :38:39.happiness means unreasonable optimism, maybe we should have some
:38:39. > :38:42.realistic pessimism in the City of London. Absolutely. I think there
:38:42. > :38:46.is a good argument to be made that during boom times we had this
:38:46. > :38:51.positive psychology driven mindset, that it was always going to get
:38:51. > :38:56.better. And nobody was going to envisage the possibility that it
:38:56. > :39:01.could fall apart. I think that is one of the issues with this debate.
:39:02. > :39:05.Some people did envisage that it would fall apart. OK, I am a member
:39:05. > :39:09.of the Green Party, but lots of people said that too much choice is
:39:09. > :39:14.not liberating. When you have the end as pursuit of growth, it will
:39:14. > :39:17.end in tears. The hedge fund had unbridled optimism. The problem
:39:17. > :39:22.with this debate is that although governments should look at
:39:22. > :39:27.happiness, there is a tendency to stop looking at causes. The reasons
:39:27. > :39:37.why we have come to feel bad about the things we feel bad about. You
:39:37. > :39:38.
:39:38. > :39:43.can take responsibility for your mood to an been positive. -- adds
:39:43. > :39:45.to think positive. If the Government really wants to make its
:39:46. > :39:50.people happy then they should start listening to people and stop lying
:39:50. > :39:58.to people and covering it up with statistics. Sunday 6% of statistics
:39:58. > :40:02.are made up on the spot! -- 76%. For me happiness is about
:40:02. > :40:06.liberation and the freedom to choose what you do with your life.
:40:06. > :40:13.Being heterosexual, being religious, they make you happy because we live
:40:13. > :40:17.in a heterosexual religious society. Do we? Yes, we definitely do. I
:40:17. > :40:21.have been told off for kissing my girlfriend in London. I thought I
:40:21. > :40:28.would come to London and it would be an open society where everybody
:40:28. > :40:34.can interact. I realise it is just as segregated as Northern Ireland.
:40:34. > :40:37.The other issue as well is equality and opportunity. If you come from a
:40:37. > :40:42.council estate in Liverpool or eaten you still have the
:40:42. > :40:46.opportunity to do what you want with your life. The reality of a
:40:46. > :40:54.quality in our society is that we do not have equality of opportunity
:40:54. > :40:59.because of how much of the wealth is captured. You have written a
:40:59. > :41:09.book about this, which is surprisingly quite good! One last
:41:09. > :41:09.
:41:09. > :41:13.comment? I have called the book The Happy Depressive. I am making the
:41:13. > :41:17.point that we have to embrace both being miserable, which I often am,
:41:17. > :41:21.with an understanding that part of the job of people in public life
:41:21. > :41:25.and policy-making is thinking about the well-being and contentment of
:41:25. > :41:29.others. If they do, they can actually lead to substantial change
:41:29. > :41:34.in the way we look at and devise policy. Sarkozy is obsessed about
:41:34. > :41:39.the amount of time front people spend in traffic jams. That may
:41:39. > :41:43.lead him to devise a better public transport system. It may take him
:41:43. > :41:48.back to the Elysee Palace as well. He is the President that will no
:41:48. > :41:51.doubt be driven around in his fat limousine. But for the public, if
:41:51. > :41:54.the President says that you are spending too much time in traffic
:41:54. > :41:59.jams, that makes you unhappy and I will do something about it, that is
:41:59. > :42:04.no bad thing. The European President, rumpy-pumpy or whatever
:42:04. > :42:08.he is called, he said the book to all of the world leaders at
:42:08. > :42:11.Christmas about happiness and said let's make this year the challenge
:42:11. > :42:16.to liberate more happiness for the people that we represent. That is
:42:16. > :42:20.not a bad place to start politics. Thank you all very much indeed, we
:42:20. > :42:25.have to leave it there. If you have got something to say about the
:42:25. > :42:31.greatest gift that we possess, their log onto the website and you
:42:31. > :42:35.can join in the conversation. Our last big question, does sex-
:42:36. > :42:40.education encourage teenage sex? If you would like to be in the
:42:40. > :42:47.audience at a future at show, you can e-mail us. We are in Edinburgh
:42:47. > :42:53.next week, at Southampton on 5th February, also the week after that.
:42:53. > :42:56.-- Oxford the week after that. Protest as on Friday were jubilant
:42:56. > :43:00.that a bill requiring abstinence education to be part of sex
:43:00. > :43:08.education for girls was not debated. Nadine Dorries has not given up.
:43:08. > :43:18.The bill will be back. At its roosters our last big question,
:43:18. > :43:23.does sex-education encourage teenage sex? At -- at its root is
:43:23. > :43:28.our last big question. I would just like to explain the bill. Young
:43:29. > :43:33.girls are not spoken to about not having sex. Most of the teenage
:43:33. > :43:37.girls I speak to feel an obligation. It is almost as societal thing that
:43:37. > :43:41.if they do not agree to have sex at a young age then they will be
:43:41. > :43:45.branded as freaks. It is young girls that become pregnant and lose
:43:45. > :43:50.their place in education. They find it very difficult to get back into
:43:50. > :43:57.education later. They usually end up pregnant again. They enter old
:43:58. > :44:03.age in poverty. At the root of his bill was a desire to empower young
:44:03. > :44:08.girls in schools with the knowledge that you can say no and it is cool.
:44:08. > :44:17.Where does the pressure come from? Their abbot refer to the opera
:44:17. > :44:21.scission -- Diane Abbott spoke about pornography in society.
:44:21. > :44:26.pressure to have sex comes from the young boy that she is with at the
:44:26. > :44:30.time. Why are you talking about young girls? The pressure for the
:44:30. > :44:34.young boy to have sex comes from the magazines he reads, the
:44:34. > :44:39.computer games, the films. I go from school to school and young
:44:39. > :44:43.girls say that if they do not have sex, if they are averted at 18,
:44:43. > :44:50.they are weird. If they don't have sex, people think they are freaks
:44:50. > :44:55.and that is desperately sad. are talking about girls needing to
:44:55. > :45:03.abstain but girls are not supposed to be the gatekeepers of sex.
:45:03. > :45:10.as well. On Friday there was no gender title. It is about
:45:10. > :45:14.abstinence. Teachers should be saying what? Teachers in schools
:45:14. > :45:19.should be teaching the mechanics of sex and how to have safe sex, which
:45:19. > :45:24.is absolutely vital. Alongside that we need to have relationship
:45:24. > :45:27.education and the importance of abstinence alongside teaching
:45:28. > :45:33.children how to have sex. They should also be told that they do
:45:33. > :45:39.not need to do it. Can I give you an example? Lay people asks the
:45:39. > :45:43.teacher in a sex education lesson, aged 14, a group of girls, and they
:45:43. > :45:47.said that they have a boyfriend who wants them to have sex. They will
:45:47. > :45:51.think I am weird if they do not. They asked whether they should and
:45:51. > :45:56.the teacher's advice was this, act in accordance with your wishes and
:45:56. > :46:00.your feelings. When I challenged the teacher afterwards, why did you
:46:00. > :46:04.not say that it is illegal under the age of 16 and that she has the
:46:04. > :46:07.right to say no and it is illegal for the boy, too? And he said that
:46:07. > :46:12.he was not trained to do it and he only had an hour in teacher-
:46:12. > :46:19.training. He said that he is not allowed to morally direct, died
:46:19. > :46:23.these children. The parents? This is another element of the debate,
:46:23. > :46:27.and we have to bring it into the public forum. Parents at home have
:46:27. > :46:30.actually absolved themselves of responsibility for sex education to
:46:30. > :46:38.schools. That is a wholly inadequate place for it to take
:46:38. > :46:41.It is important that we provide young people with a broad and
:46:42. > :46:46.balanced curriculum. It is the responsibility of the schools and
:46:46. > :46:51.the parents to provide this. It is not one or the other's
:46:51. > :46:56.responsibility. Some parents may find it difficult, and that is why
:46:56. > :47:01.they look to the school to get help and support. We have the second
:47:01. > :47:09.worst teenage pregnancy rates in the world... Second only to the
:47:09. > :47:14.high ridges United States of America. State the obvious, George.
:47:14. > :47:18.-- the highly religious. commercialisation and the
:47:18. > :47:28.sexualisation of young girls has been talked about as the will pay
:47:28. > :47:28.
:47:28. > :47:32.part of their lives. A study said We have a country which is
:47:32. > :47:36.basically mimicking the US and in so much as we have mimicked their
:47:36. > :47:42.neo-liberal policies, we have given more free rein to the powers-that-
:47:42. > :47:47.be to Niblett us in ways that great profit for them and -- to
:47:47. > :47:50.manipulate as in ways that create profit for them. It gives free rein
:47:50. > :47:54.of the government to turn schools into hotbeds of social engineering
:47:54. > :48:00.rather than teaching subject knowledge. Teachers are having the
:48:00. > :48:04.burden to put on them, not just to teach subjects but personal and
:48:04. > :48:08.social education, now abstinence. The role that parents should have
:48:08. > :48:12.is being completely taken away because people don't trust parents.
:48:12. > :48:16.Our schools are hotbeds of materialistic values. What we have
:48:16. > :48:20.at the moment is a situation where Michael Gove talks about schools
:48:20. > :48:24.being places where we create the economic units of the future to
:48:24. > :48:27.compete in the global marketplace. Is it any wonder that children
:48:27. > :48:31.write to each other in terms of consumption and want to consume one
:48:31. > :48:35.another in terms of relationships. Remember what it was like being a
:48:35. > :48:39.teenage boy? It is all you think about. My wife worked Balshaw start
:48:40. > :48:45.for 10 years and lost her job because this government axe the
:48:45. > :48:49.work she was doing -- worked for Sure Start for 10 years. The
:48:49. > :48:53.government is not looking at a rich provision of education which
:48:53. > :48:58.encourages children to relate to one another. The Bill deals with 13
:48:58. > :49:03.to 16, that is way too late, you have to start with the way the
:49:03. > :49:07.children relate to one another much earlier. Which is where Sweden and
:49:07. > :49:12.the Netherlands are so spectacular compared to us. In terms of teenage
:49:12. > :49:16.pregnancy, rates have been dropping in this country. Those countries in
:49:16. > :49:20.northern Europe with luck teenage pregnancy rates have much better
:49:20. > :49:23.sex and relationships education and they have parents contributing.
:49:23. > :49:26.There is no coincidence that in these countries, the young people
:49:27. > :49:30.report that the well-being and happiness. These are countries
:49:30. > :49:35.which embrace young people's development, it is part of the
:49:35. > :49:39.curriculum. What are they doing right, tell us more about that. Are
:49:39. > :49:42.they communicating in a different way? I think they are being honest
:49:42. > :49:46.with children and young people about their bodies, growing up,
:49:46. > :49:52.development, sex and reproduction. It starts in primary school.
:49:52. > :49:56.Parents are echoing the message is being taught in school. They all
:49:56. > :49:59.use the same schools as well so you don't have an apartheid in the
:49:59. > :50:03.school system, that is for another day. I saw a clip of Mary
:50:03. > :50:06.Whitehouse on the television, when she would warn about the whole
:50:06. > :50:12.world being taken over by pornography, the sexualisation of
:50:12. > :50:15.youth. She was right. She was certainly right in terms of the
:50:15. > :50:20.scale of what has happened. I don't think any of us could have
:50:20. > :50:25.predicted that and she did. Nadine Dorries is on to something in terms
:50:25. > :50:27.of the impact of the sexualisation of youth. I think what the
:50:27. > :50:32.Scandinavians do is treat young people with much more respect than
:50:32. > :50:36.we do. That teaches them to teach - - treat each other with more
:50:36. > :50:42.respect. Families are more involved in their children's upbringing and
:50:42. > :50:50.education. It is family breakdown? I have two small daughters. One is
:50:50. > :50:53.nine and one is eight. You probably didn't read it this way but I --
:50:53. > :50:58.mean it this way but I did not like the turn of phrase about teaching
:50:58. > :51:02.our children about how to have sex. That is something that should be
:51:02. > :51:10.made criminal at any teacher that teaches my daughter how to have
:51:10. > :51:14.sex... Don't you think, however you educate these children about how to
:51:14. > :51:20.have sex, what to do, how about educating them about how to control
:51:20. > :51:25.their thoughts, their edges. Teach them some self restraint -- the
:51:25. > :51:32.their urges. That is what the bill was about. What I was talking about
:51:32. > :51:35.was the mechanics of sex. It is exactly what my bill was about.
:51:35. > :51:39.Teaching young girls... You put it in a different way, about how to
:51:39. > :51:43.exercise self-restraint. My Bill is coming from the point of how to
:51:43. > :51:53.empowered young girls and put them in control. And young boys. It was
:51:53. > :51:58.
:51:58. > :52:03.My emphasis and I make no apology, is on the young girls who lose
:52:03. > :52:07.their life opportunities. It is about empowering that and making
:52:07. > :52:11.them believe that it is not weird to say no, they are not freaks, it
:52:11. > :52:15.is school and something they should be doing. It is about empowering
:52:15. > :52:20.them to say no which is reinforcing a moral agenda. It is not about
:52:20. > :52:24.getting them to think about the nature of relationships, when they
:52:24. > :52:30.are right and wrong to have sex, and starting get much earlier.
:52:30. > :52:35.Totally agree. You are a number of this group, Rachel, challenge Team
:52:35. > :52:40.UK. You have made your decision not to have sex until you are married.
:52:40. > :52:45.How old are you? 26. Did you feel there was pressure at school,
:52:45. > :52:48.university, when you were growing up? Obviously, three teenage years
:52:48. > :52:53.at university there is a lot of pressure to have sex. I made my
:52:53. > :52:56.decision when I was quite young. I found the sex education I received
:52:56. > :53:00.in school very one-sided. I had already made my decision but I
:53:00. > :53:04.found the message I came away from his, you are going to have sex soon,
:53:04. > :53:09.use a condom and everything will be fine. I thought, what about my
:53:09. > :53:13.view? Have I got a valid opinion, that I can choose to wait? But I
:53:13. > :53:16.feel I can be empowered to make my own decisions? There was an
:53:16. > :53:22.assumption it would happen soon? There is very much an assumption of
:53:22. > :53:26.that. Challenge team go to schools and do assemblies and presentations
:53:26. > :53:34.on top of the school's own sex education, looking at the option of
:53:34. > :53:38.saving sex for marriage. Good- quality sex and relationships
:53:38. > :53:43.education would never make that assumption. Delaying sexual
:53:43. > :53:47.activity is one relationship choice, but it has to be put into the
:53:47. > :53:51.context of relationships. It is not taught in school. It is because we
:53:51. > :53:57.don't have a consistent policy across schools. Some are excellent,
:53:57. > :54:00.some are not doing a good job. we had sex and relationships
:54:00. > :54:06.education like in the Netherlands and Sweden from a much earlier age,
:54:06. > :54:11.we would have a much healthier situation? Yes, there is a role for
:54:11. > :54:16.government as well, to say, how is this part of the National
:54:16. > :54:22.Curriculum within personal and social health education. You can't
:54:22. > :54:25.leave it he up to an individual school to decide that it is
:54:25. > :54:28.important because there are high teenage pregnancy rates in my area.
:54:28. > :54:34.You can't leave it up to an individual school. They need to be
:54:34. > :54:41.a wide policy across the country which is broad, balanced, includes
:54:41. > :54:44.the delay but also learning about contraception. This is where the
:54:45. > :54:52.free schools policy is dangerous. Already, a third of faith schools
:54:52. > :54:57.opt out of that. We know there is a 10% -- they are 10% more likely to
:54:57. > :55:01.have homophobic bullying, probably linked. What we need is a
:55:01. > :55:06.standardisation and a commitment to do it across the board to do it at
:55:06. > :55:09.a younger age. From an early age, it is about self-esteem and
:55:09. > :55:13.learning about love and relationships. Some people are
:55:13. > :55:18.horrified, they think it is all about putting condoms on bananas,
:55:18. > :55:22.it is not. From two, three, four years old... I have two daughters
:55:22. > :55:26.and one son, we were talking openly about parts of the body. Sometimes
:55:26. > :55:30.it got us into embarrassing situations, in changing rooms when
:55:30. > :55:36.swimming, but that is fine, it is part of the conversation. When we
:55:36. > :55:41.get this hysteria, particularly from the right wing press, we
:55:41. > :55:45.actually need to be teaching kids at 5, 6, 7, in the right context.
:55:45. > :55:50.The Daily Mail website is all about women's bodies and whether they
:55:50. > :55:55.look right, who is having it off with who in the showbiz world. I
:55:55. > :55:59.saw the celebrity magazine editors at the Leveson Inquiry, I think
:55:59. > :56:03.their responsibility is pretty big in this. That is the media a lot of
:56:03. > :56:09.these young girls consume, and it would all make them feel abnormal
:56:09. > :56:13.more to be engaging in sex all the time. It is about the
:56:13. > :56:17.desensitisation of schools, schools don't teach you the full extent of
:56:17. > :56:22.what the media has pushed on you. Every day... I woke up the other
:56:22. > :56:26.day, I turn on the TV and Beyonce is there in suspenders and bras.
:56:26. > :56:30.You go into sex education in schools and you talk about the
:56:30. > :56:33.engineering of how babies are born. You go home and it is like walking
:56:33. > :56:37.on eggshells when you talk about sex around the house. It doesn't
:56:37. > :56:46.make any sense, to have a full impact of sex on TV and media, but
:56:46. > :56:50.when you talk about it with your parents, it is taboo. Everywhere we
:56:50. > :56:53.look, there is an overwhelming tide. It is very difficult to deal with.
:56:53. > :56:57.They have that presumably in the Netherlands and Sweden, when they
:56:57. > :57:01.turn on televisions? In the context of this debate, it is important to
:57:01. > :57:04.come back to the question we started with, does sex education
:57:04. > :57:08.make people have sex? I think we have come to the conclusion that no,
:57:08. > :57:12.it doesn't. There are plenty of other factors that playing to this.
:57:13. > :57:16.What is important is that you have conference of sex and relationships
:57:16. > :57:20.education which you start from a very young age, talking to people
:57:20. > :57:23.about what a French it is, a relationship is, before you start
:57:23. > :57:27.talking... What a friendship is. You don't start talking about the
:57:27. > :57:30.mechanics of sex, you talk about how they can make decisions they
:57:30. > :57:34.want to make and how they can protect themselves when they make
:57:34. > :57:44.those decisions. That is not what is happening in schools. I work in
:57:44. > :57:45.
:57:45. > :57:50.schools, I have seen good SRA -- so examinations at education and bad.
:57:50. > :58:00.-- sex and relationships education. Why don't we call it relationships
:58:00. > :58:04.Let's put the relationships first. Let's put the young people first.
:58:04. > :58:08.This has become a political debate around abstinence. That means that
:58:08. > :58:12.young people that use that word in the classroom are ridiculed by some