:00:24. > :00:28.Thank you. Good morning everyone. Welcome to The Big Questions from
:00:28. > :00:33.Leith Academy in Edinburgh. I'm Nicky Campbell. On Wednesday
:00:33. > :00:37.Scotland's First Minister, Alex Salmond, launched a consultation
:00:37. > :00:42.paper outlining his country's plans on independence. But the rest of
:00:42. > :00:48.the UK isn't going to get a say. Our first Big Question. Would the
:00:48. > :00:56.UK miss Scotland? Margaret Curran and Ruth Davidson are here to
:00:56. > :01:00.explain why many Labour and Scots are united in against the plans.
:01:00. > :01:08.And same sex couples marrying in church. Should gay couples have the
:01:08. > :01:13.right to marry? Prominent Roman Catholics and Protestants stand
:01:13. > :01:16.side by side. Welcome to everybody on The Big Questions this morning.
:01:17. > :01:21.Alex Salmond's vision for an independent Scotland built on
:01:21. > :01:24.fairness is as a beacon for progressive opinion south of the
:01:24. > :01:29.border. But the First Ministers of Wales and Northern Ireland are more
:01:29. > :01:33.afraid that the removal of Scotland's voting power will
:01:33. > :01:38.fundamentally change what remains of the United Kingdom. Would the UK
:01:38. > :01:43.miss Scotland? It's been an incredibly successful nation state
:01:43. > :01:46.for 300 years. Scotland contributed and benefited hugely from the
:01:46. > :01:52.empiper adventure, but Margaret Curran, looking that the from a UK
:01:52. > :01:56.perspective, what would the removal of Scotland mean for the rest of
:01:56. > :01:59.the United Kingdom? I think it would be a huge loss if Scotland
:01:59. > :02:02.separated off from the United Kingdom. We've got a big decision
:02:02. > :02:06.to make in Scotland about that. Scotland's contributed enormously
:02:06. > :02:11.in terms of people, in terms of wealth and culture. But that will
:02:11. > :02:16.continue won't it? As part of of the union it is better to be
:02:16. > :02:20.partners rather than competitors. APPLAUSE That doesn't mean to say
:02:21. > :02:23.it is an unchanging partnership. Of course it is changing. Devolution
:02:23. > :02:26.is perhaps one of the most important things that's happened to
:02:26. > :02:30.Scotland and the UK. I hope it continues and will grow strongly.
:02:30. > :02:37.You can have a strong Scotland and a strong United Kingdom. I'm
:02:37. > :02:42.Scottish and British. I'm proud to be Scottish. I'm very patriotic.
:02:42. > :02:47.That doesn't mean I don't think about the English. I think they are
:02:48. > :02:52.partners and we can grow and be strong together. Alan Bissett this,
:02:52. > :02:58.has been an incredibly successful nation state for 300 years. There's
:02:58. > :03:02.a quote from Dominic sand brook. Blinkered, mean-spirited and
:03:02. > :03:06.unscrutiny louse politicians are destroying something special.
:03:06. > :03:10.I don't think. So it hasn't worked out for a great many people in
:03:10. > :03:15.Scotland. Glasgow has the lowest life expectancy in Europe - highest
:03:15. > :03:20.knife crime rate. How does the union explain that if we are living
:03:20. > :03:23.this times of plenty. And you maintain and argue that the union
:03:24. > :03:27.is culturally damaging to Scotland. What does that mean? Scotland
:03:27. > :03:32.doesn't know what it is. It's never been allowed to grow up and mature
:03:32. > :03:38.as a nation, because we've always been in this straitjacket. Such
:03:38. > :03:42.things as the Scottish cringe and pessimism, all these things we are
:03:42. > :03:46.told that are our national characteristics. That's not what
:03:46. > :03:50.Scotland wants to be. Imagine after a "yes" vote the euphoria that
:03:50. > :04:00.would sweep this country, the cultural confidence we would have
:04:00. > :04:04.for ourselves that never Been allowed? I think a lot of people
:04:04. > :04:07.would like to take the north of England with us. There is more in
:04:07. > :04:11.common between Glasgow and Liverpool than Liverpool and London.
:04:12. > :04:15.Scots have the decide what's better for them as a people. John Haldane,
:04:15. > :04:18.in what ways do you think this would affect Britain? I think it
:04:18. > :04:21.would expose a real problem for England. That's perhaps not
:04:21. > :04:25.something since we are in Scotland today we need to focus on. I think
:04:25. > :04:30.we do need to focus on it. There's a question about English identity
:04:30. > :04:34.in this respect. It seems to me the union came into existence for
:04:34. > :04:38.entirely practical reasons, economic on the part of Scotland,
:04:38. > :04:45.defence on the part of England because of its anxiety about wars
:04:45. > :04:48.with France and the Scots being allied with that. Over the
:04:48. > :04:51.centuries a familiarial relationship has developed. The
:04:51. > :04:55.point was made that people in Glasgow may have more in common
:04:55. > :04:59.with people in Liverpool than, say, with other parts of Scotland or
:04:59. > :05:02.England. That's right. We are part of a larger union. It has provided
:05:02. > :05:07.the Scots with a stage in which they can move. This idea that
:05:07. > :05:11.Scotland has somehow been culturally inhicted, I just don't
:05:11. > :05:15.see. Scotland is a significant contributor to British culture.
:05:15. > :05:20.That's correct but it is probably despite the British state.
:05:21. > :05:24.APPLAUSE After the rigged 1979 referendum on devolution which the
:05:24. > :05:31.British Government make sure that even though the majority of Scots
:05:31. > :05:38.voted yes it didn't go through there was a huge flurry in Scottish
:05:38. > :05:42.culture. That was because of the subconscious reaction against the
:05:42. > :05:47.British state. Have you ever heard of the Scottish enlightenment? That
:05:47. > :05:50.was the greatest flowering ever. To say you can see echoes of Scotland
:05:50. > :05:54.where you live and where I represent. I would subject Belfast,
:05:54. > :05:57.Liverpool, Newcastle, where I have family and friends, I see very much
:05:57. > :06:01.of Glasgow in all these places. There are similarities between
:06:01. > :06:06.different parts of the United Kingdom. I think that we gain a
:06:06. > :06:10.huge amount for being part of like you say, not just an economic but a
:06:10. > :06:14.cultural union. With countries that have the same language as us.
:06:14. > :06:19.Places that have a similar background, have gone through the
:06:19. > :06:23.same political processes as us to. Break off from that... Those ties
:06:23. > :06:27.of kinship, Ruth Davidson, will surely continue unchanged. But why
:06:28. > :06:31.would you want to break them off just now when people like them and
:06:31. > :06:38.put up barriers to that. Particularly when the majority of
:06:38. > :06:42.Scots want to keep the ties that bind. That is nonsense. Scotland is
:06:42. > :06:46.not going anywhere. Will it still being here. We are not floating off
:06:46. > :06:51.into the North Sea somewhere. to get the oil. Oil will stay with
:06:51. > :06:55.us of course. The fact remains that all of the strong social unions,
:06:55. > :06:57.the family and the cultural this exist at the moment will continue
:06:57. > :07:01.after independence. In fact I believe we'll have a strengthened
:07:01. > :07:05.position for both Scotland and the rest of the UK post independence.
:07:06. > :07:09.We could work in partnership where it is in our mutual benefit and
:07:09. > :07:12.interest, but where we have a different view of the world, for
:07:12. > :07:15.example on weapons of mass destruction, we could get rid of
:07:15. > :07:21.them. You cannot have a union where there's been political and social
:07:21. > :07:26.union for 300 years, similar language, the same currency, to
:07:26. > :07:31.take us out of that to put us in a union with 27 other nations without
:07:31. > :07:35.that same economic union and cycle and language. I don't see why you
:07:35. > :07:41.are so intent on doing that when the majority of Scots don't want
:07:41. > :07:44.it? Because we would have the ability to determine our own
:07:44. > :07:49.destiny. But you are tying it to Brussels. The UK Government is
:07:49. > :07:59.pursuing policys which for the most part are abhorrent to the Scottish
:07:59. > :08:05.people. We don't want the disabled people... More than two thirds of
:08:05. > :08:11.Scots support the cap on welfare payments. Not doesn't the SNP?
:08:11. > :08:17.spoke fondly op your kinsfolk in the north of England. Maybe your
:08:17. > :08:21.political brothers and sisters as well. Are you not abandoning the
:08:21. > :08:27.core left-wing vote, the Labour vote, to a Tory Britain if Scotland
:08:27. > :08:31.leaves? Unfortunately yes. Did you feel guilty about that? I do.
:08:31. > :08:34.that self determination or selfishness? It is search
:08:34. > :08:37.determination. That's exactly what it is. The unfortunate thing is
:08:37. > :08:42.England continues to vote Tory. Scotland does not. There's a
:08:42. > :08:46.democratic deficit here. There are no Tory votes in Scotland. And yet
:08:46. > :08:56.we have to endure decades of Tory rule. That is not good for the
:08:56. > :09:01.people of Scotland. I have to come in here 24. Is -- I have to come in
:09:01. > :09:06.here. More people voted Liberal Democrat in the 2010 general
:09:06. > :09:16.election than voted SNP for Alex Salmond and First Minister. That is
:09:16. > :09:17.
:09:17. > :09:22.incorrect. 898,000 voted for the coalition pact. Politics in Britain
:09:22. > :09:32.fluctuates. The only party that's had a majority of seats in Scotland
:09:32. > :09:33.
:09:33. > :09:37.is the Conservatives. This is my point. Politics fluctuates.
:09:37. > :09:41.There'll be periods in which one party will comes to the foreand
:09:41. > :09:44.another party and so on. What we are talking about here is breaking
:09:44. > :09:48.up an enduring union. The question that hasn't been brought into focus
:09:48. > :09:51.is what exactly we are talking about. I gather today Alex Salmond
:09:51. > :09:56.is continuing to talk about the existence of the British state
:09:56. > :09:59.beyond this point. It seems to me... The United Kingdom. He talked about
:09:59. > :10:04.the British state and the continuation of the union of the
:10:04. > :10:07.kingdoms can, with the sovereign remaining and so on. This leaves
:10:07. > :10:11.many of us puzzled as to what we are talking about when talking
:10:11. > :10:14.about independence. The thing north and south of the border and in the
:10:14. > :10:18.Principality of Wales and in Northern Ireland people should be
:10:18. > :10:22.most concerned about and most press is what exactly is it that we are
:10:22. > :10:24.talking about? You can't talk about Scotland going it own way while at
:10:24. > :10:30.the same time talking about the the continuation of the British state.
:10:30. > :10:35.This idea of a social union is a warm, fatty phrase. It needs to be
:10:36. > :10:40.defined. APPLAUSE What was true of Scotland
:10:40. > :10:46.between the union of the couns and the Parliaments? How would you
:10:46. > :10:51.describe that? A period of economic collapse basically. Remember you
:10:51. > :10:55.are talking about a Europe this those times made of of tiny
:10:55. > :11:01.kingdoms and pains palities. Most of the European states were
:11:01. > :11:06.products of the 19th century. Germany. Italy. The trend was to
:11:06. > :11:08.create nation states. At the end of the Second World War there were
:11:08. > :11:13.approximately 50 independent countries in the United Nations.
:11:13. > :11:18.There are now 200. The trend is for smaller nations in the world.
:11:18. > :11:23.That's the trend. It is opposite of what you are saying. Will this, if
:11:23. > :11:27.it happens, be better for Wales, will it be better for England,
:11:27. > :11:30.better for Northern Ireland, and why? I think it is better for the
:11:30. > :11:37.rest of the United Kingdom and for Scotland. What we have at the
:11:37. > :11:42.moment is an unfairness. At the moment, in the European Union, the
:11:42. > :11:48.UK has one vote at the top table. Post-poips there'll be two votes.
:11:48. > :11:56.You have to apply to join? No we don't. The weight of opinion
:11:56. > :11:59.suggests that you do. That's an assertion. That's not truth. We'll
:11:59. > :12:03.both be members of the European Union. Both have votes at the top
:12:03. > :12:07.table. Where our interests meet together we can work together for
:12:07. > :12:13.the benefit of both. Two votes rather than one. The real debate is
:12:13. > :12:15.about the future of Scotland and the needs of people. And the future
:12:15. > :12:20.of England, Wales and Northern Ireland. I accept, that but for
:12:20. > :12:25.those of us who will be voting in the referendum it is largely about
:12:25. > :12:28.the future of Scotland. One of the implications of, that what matters
:12:28. > :12:32.for the people of the UK, is Scotland's economic future. I want
:12:32. > :12:39.to ask Stuart, the proposal from the SNP is that Scotland will
:12:39. > :12:42.remain part of sterling and the British currency. I don't
:12:42. > :12:47.understand why that is independence in separation. I don't know how you
:12:47. > :12:56.can have that and be part of a sovereign and a foreign power and
:12:56. > :13:00.the policies of that. It is quite clear that there are 67
:13:00. > :13:04.approximately countries in the world in monetary unions, currency
:13:04. > :13:09.unions. That's a perfectly normal situation around the world. They
:13:09. > :13:15.don't think of themselves as any less independent because they are
:13:15. > :13:19.in the same currency zone. Would you want to join the euro? If it
:13:19. > :13:22.benefited the Scottish people. That's a phrase out of the back
:13:22. > :13:28.pocket! We wouldn't do it if it was against us. You wouldn't do it
:13:28. > :13:31.tomorrow would you? Certainly not. If peopled for it. Owen Dudley-
:13:31. > :13:35.Edwards, you said Scottish is a country that's compassionate to the
:13:35. > :13:39.core and independence would let that compassion express itself,
:13:40. > :13:44.whereas England, driven by the English political class, is far
:13:44. > :13:49.more materialistic. What do you mean? First of all, if I can make
:13:49. > :13:54.one or two small points, there's a country called Ireland which is
:13:54. > :14:02.also part of our archipelago. It contains very many people who've
:14:02. > :14:06.cousins in Britain. It existed in the sterling area between 1920 and
:14:06. > :14:12.1970, Margaret Curran - learn a little Irish history. It was able
:14:12. > :14:18.to do so and the existence of Ireland then is a reminder to us of
:14:18. > :14:22.quite a number of things, including the fact that so many Irish
:14:22. > :14:28.continue to prosper in several generations in Britain, including
:14:28. > :14:33.the fact that you had a Prime Minister whose name most people
:14:33. > :14:40.couldn't pronounce because it was so Irish - James Callaghan. Ireland
:14:40. > :14:46.at the same time is a warning. Implacably against violence and
:14:46. > :14:48.they've elevated Scottish nationalism to be an anti-violent,
:14:48. > :14:55.non-violent brief. The contrast with Ireland is overwhelming and
:14:55. > :15:05.important. So credit for not using guns, and bombss? On the positive
:15:05. > :15:09.
:15:09. > :15:16.side for preaching a gospel of It's basic to the question as far
:15:16. > :15:19.as... Quickly on that point? He's an Irishman, a fine historian, but
:15:19. > :15:22.look, the fact of the matter is, you know what happened in Ireland,
:15:22. > :15:25.in the 19th century there was a movement for home rule. What that
:15:25. > :15:29.became was something that divided Ireland very deeply. I don't just
:15:29. > :15:33.mean north and south in what is now the republic as well. It has to be
:15:33. > :15:36.said that one consequence, we saw this with the break-up of
:15:36. > :15:40.Yugoslavia and so on, one consequence of breaking up nation
:15:40. > :15:45.states into smaller units is that some of the regional and other
:15:45. > :15:50.tensions that inevitably exist start to be exposed within a
:15:50. > :15:54.smaller stage. It would be overoptimistic to think we are not
:15:54. > :15:58.within Scotland and I'm not thinking about sectarian, but
:15:58. > :16:03.significant regional differences. There is a myth of this idea that
:16:03. > :16:06.somehow Scotland enjoys a degree of cultural integrity and union within
:16:07. > :16:10.itself that somehow means we are problem free. In fact, much of the
:16:10. > :16:13.tensions and difficulties that any small country faces and features,
:16:13. > :16:18.have to some extent been absorbed and concealed by being part of this
:16:18. > :16:22.larger union in which Scots have moved freely north and south of the
:16:22. > :16:26.borders and others have done likewise. A great danger with the
:16:26. > :16:32.break-up of the UK is that you get an intensification of some of the
:16:32. > :16:38.divisions that already exist. England, aspects of society may
:16:39. > :16:43.emerge? I think that's a real danger? Is it? I think it's
:16:43. > :16:46.provided... Ruth Davies? In this multicultural, globalised world,
:16:46. > :16:50.you clearly believe we face the challenges better within the
:16:50. > :16:53.structure of a British state, but there's also a strong current of
:16:53. > :16:57.resentment in the rest of the UK that they're paying for this,
:16:57. > :17:02.they're paying for the way Scotland lives at the moment. Would.the best
:17:02. > :17:07.way to lance that boil be to go the route of Stuart Maxwell, full
:17:07. > :17:11.independence? There's about seven questions in there, so if I may
:17:11. > :17:15.pick and choose them. We have time. Super. Never tell a woman there's
:17:15. > :17:18.enough time to talk! Let's not overstate this. Everybody on the
:17:18. > :17:22.table on this is part of a democratic process and we all want
:17:22. > :17:27.to be. Nobody is suggesting or scaremongering that this will go
:17:27. > :17:34.into violence. Do we see things we don't like that are being said? Yes
:17:34. > :17:39.I do. I don't appreciate your colleague saying don't support the
:17:39. > :17:42.SNP it's anti-Scottish. This is a debate about ideas and what the
:17:42. > :17:47.future of Scotland should be, what we want the future of our nation to
:17:47. > :17:52.be. The future of the UK is our angle this morning? I happen to
:17:52. > :17:57.believe that Scotland stands taller, shouts louder and is stronger for
:17:57. > :18:03.being part of a larger union which has served us well down the years.
:18:03. > :18:07.The union is greater than some of the parts? Absolutely, Scots have
:18:07. > :18:11.contributed a lot and we've got a lot back from it. For me, being
:18:11. > :18:15.Scottish and British, I wear both nationality lightly but I don't
:18:15. > :18:19.want someone to take the British part away. Feeling British doesn't
:18:19. > :18:24.make me feel any less Scottish than I am. Can you explain then why the
:18:24. > :18:28.independent report in the 1970s that that was commissioned by the
:18:28. > :18:31.Conservative Party, the McCrone report that stated if Scotland was
:18:31. > :18:36.to nationalise its oil industry it would have one of the hardest
:18:36. > :18:41.currencys in Europe, there would be an embarrassing budget surplus.
:18:41. > :18:48.That argument was pressed by Conservatives and Labour and kept
:18:48. > :18:51.from the Scottish people. Something you might not know was that the
:18:51. > :18:57.entire North Sea revenue was a third of the Scottish welfare bill,
:18:57. > :19:02.so the price of oil goes up and down. Why is the Scottish welfare
:19:02. > :19:06.bill so high? Why is it 134 Because of the policies perpetrated by
:19:06. > :19:10.Westminster. I think the welfare bill's so high because of Scottish
:19:10. > :19:16.Labour that's been entrenched for years and years. That is the
:19:16. > :19:19.argument I would makes, particularly in my part of glaz.
:19:19. > :19:24.there sufficient candour about this debate -- Glasgow? I think the
:19:24. > :19:27.business community is largely keeping its head below the parapet
:19:27. > :19:31.and nobody's willing to raise their head and say what they think. I
:19:31. > :19:38.think there's a real danger there. We need to have an open debate
:19:38. > :19:42.about kwha this means for business. What, lest they be accused of being
:19:42. > :19:46.unpatriotic? Correct. I spend lots of time in London in what I detect
:19:46. > :19:50.already is complete understanding of why the Scots are trying to turn
:19:50. > :19:54.the union apart, leading to resentment and I already detect
:19:54. > :19:59.that, being in London a couple of day this is week. Our largest
:19:59. > :20:04.public, private sector employers are the banks, the supermarkets,
:20:04. > :20:11.whether we like it or not, they are English companies. I'd be extremely
:20:11. > :20:17.concerned about the impact which the whole thing may have on the way
:20:17. > :20:21.that English look at the Scots and what impact that may have if you
:20:21. > :20:27.think that England is today our largest single export market, we
:20:27. > :20:34.want to make sure we've still got the ability to trade freely in our
:20:34. > :20:38.largest... This morning... APPLAUSE Speaking to Andrew, Alex
:20:38. > :20:44.Salmond promised lower corporate tax rates and with natural
:20:44. > :20:48.resources in Scotland, couldn't Scotland adoin Norway be a success.
:20:48. > :20:55.Independent nation attractive for business? That sounds terrific. My
:20:55. > :20:59.day job, I help people to start new technology companies. You have no
:20:59. > :21:04.chance of getting finance unless you have got a terrific business
:21:04. > :21:07.plan, strong management team and you stand up to rigorous diligence.
:21:07. > :21:12.An investor puts his money into something without those things,
:21:12. > :21:17.he'll lose it. At the moment, I think the Scots are being asked to
:21:17. > :21:22.invest, by extension and analogy, we are being asked to invest in a
:21:22. > :21:28.company with no business plan, no visibility in its management team
:21:28. > :21:32.post-independence and basically, I had a look at the referendum
:21:32. > :21:35.document which appeared this week, it's all about the process, there's
:21:35. > :21:39.nothing in it whatsoever about the substance.
:21:39. > :21:42.I think the reason that support for independence is growing can
:21:42. > :21:46.actually be because of the arguments that are ah tick rated on
:21:46. > :21:50.this side of the hall this morning -- articulated. We have had scare
:21:50. > :21:54.stories and a suggestion that we need to be protected in Scotland in
:21:54. > :21:58.case we dissolve into a Balkan-type conflict. It's unbelievably
:21:58. > :22:02.depressing a view of the people of Scotland. This is a basic issue of
:22:02. > :22:08.fairness. I lived in England for a long time, I understand people
:22:08. > :22:11.there are very fair minded. If we had a general election and one
:22:11. > :22:14.party had one Member of Parliament and they said, we are the
:22:14. > :22:20.Government, we are going to be in charge of economic Sol pi and we
:22:20. > :22:24.are going to be the Prime Minister, people in England would laugh at
:22:24. > :22:27.that. We have a Conservative Member of Parliament. We are a coalition
:22:27. > :22:34.of Government. One member of Scotland and they are in charge of
:22:34. > :22:37.our country. A lot of Lib Dems in Scotland? The other thing I would
:22:37. > :22:41.say, on the day that Alex Salmond launched the independence renk
:22:41. > :22:45.double, on the week that David Cameron raised this issue in
:22:45. > :22:49.particular, there are two important facts that came out, one, one in
:22:49. > :22:54.five of our churn in Scotland live in poverty and next year, we'll
:22:54. > :22:59.have record investment in the North Sea oil. We have generated �300
:22:59. > :23:05.million of royalties in North Sea oil and one in five children in our
:23:05. > :23:11.country live in poverty and you are telling us we shouldn't be changing.
:23:11. > :23:16.APPLAUSE There is a big issue over North Sea
:23:16. > :23:23.oil. If we were running this country, people would be incapable.
:23:23. > :23:27.That's not the argument. Denmark, Switzerland and Norway couldn't do
:23:28. > :23:32.it. It's not the country, it's to do with us, Scotland, you are
:23:32. > :23:37.saying, we are incapable. It's not the size of the country, it's what
:23:37. > :23:41.that country... You think it's Scotland, it's to do with us.
:23:41. > :23:45.never said that. Do you go to Denmark and tell them they're a
:23:45. > :23:50.country of five million people and therefore they're incapable. That
:23:50. > :23:54.is not my argument, it's not the size of the country, it's what the
:23:54. > :23:58.country decides to do. It's to do with Scotland, not the size. But
:23:58. > :24:03.you said it's not the size, it's the country. You will be on the
:24:03. > :24:12.naughty step in a minute, you know that, don't stkpwhrou! I think you
:24:12. > :24:17.have to see a different thing about distributing resources across the
:24:17. > :24:22.country. Every month since the SNP have been elected, child poverty's
:24:22. > :24:27.gone up so I would be less righteous about tackling priority.
:24:27. > :24:30.We can't do anything about it, we haven't got the power. That's the
:24:30. > :24:33.point. It's about how you use the resources. We have heard the First
:24:33. > :24:38.Minister say this morning he wants to cut corporation tax, you wanted
:24:38. > :24:42.to cut taxs to the bankers. That's not what I would want to do, I
:24:42. > :24:47.would want to make sure you raise taxes to make sure you help tackle
:24:47. > :24:51.pofr any Scotland and that's a policy you should be arguing for --
:24:51. > :24:55.poverty. How will Scotland do? You are off
:24:55. > :24:58.the naughty step now and are back in favour. With a deficit about
:24:58. > :25:02.what it takes in and pays out, you are relying on the oil revenues
:25:02. > :25:05.aren't you, because you are not going to get all that money from
:25:05. > :25:09.the Barnet formula and there are people watching from elsewhere in
:25:09. > :25:14.the UK who realise that the spend per Capita is far higher than where
:25:14. > :25:19.they live? We are not just relying on the oil revenue. How are you
:25:19. > :25:22.going to make the money then? four of the five years before the
:25:22. > :25:27.crash Scotland was in surplus. From the ten years from 2000, the UK as
:25:27. > :25:30.a whole was in deficit. I think the argument... There's another
:25:30. > :25:34.important point here. You were talking about Alex Salmond this
:25:34. > :25:39.morning who's clearly a giant in British politics, never mind
:25:39. > :25:47.Scottish politics, but can we trust his vision? This is a man who
:25:47. > :25:51.encouraged Sir Fred Goodwin in the take-over that RBS did on ABN AMRO.
:25:51. > :25:57.His Finance Minister wrote congratulating Sir Fred Goodwin on
:25:57. > :26:02.that. Embarrassing? I don't think so. The former Labour First
:26:02. > :26:04.Minister, Jack McConnell, suggested that Fred Goodwin should get his
:26:04. > :26:08.Knighthood. I don't criticise him for that because at the time people
:26:08. > :26:11.were thinking it was a successful Scottish business, we now know
:26:11. > :26:15.something very different. Post- independence about what it would be
:26:15. > :26:19.a successful project? The issue of money is very important. It's good
:26:19. > :26:23.for the UK. At the moment we have a situation where there's some
:26:23. > :26:26.unpleasantness because people in England, some right-wing
:26:26. > :26:29.commentators will say, we are living the high life with free
:26:29. > :26:35.tuition fees and prescriptions off the back of people in England. I
:26:35. > :26:39.look at the oil resources and Norway with its �5 50 billion oil
:26:39. > :26:44.fund and I think, put that to good use. If we happened independence,
:26:44. > :26:51.the revenue raiseded if Scotland would stay in Scotland and same in
:26:52. > :26:55.England and we could meet as equals.. What about the oil?
:26:55. > :27:00.started off with culture and Scotland, Wales and Ireland have a
:27:00. > :27:04.much stronger cultural identity than England, but if this is what
:27:04. > :27:09.is emerging from this is the elephant in the room, it's till
:27:09. > :27:13.about oil. Oil production peaked in 1997. What I know about oil is that
:27:13. > :27:17.North Sea oil will run out the lifetime of my children,
:27:17. > :27:23.grandchildren. So if we have a vision for the future of Scotland...
:27:23. > :27:28.That's a long time. Well, I think people, Alex Salmond, is choosing
:27:28. > :27:35.to have the referendum in the 70th anniversary of Bannockburn or
:27:35. > :27:41.something like that, so that was a long time ago -- 70th anniversary.
:27:41. > :27:50.So let's look into the future and think about our children and our
:27:50. > :27:58.children's children. It's nothing to do with oil and everything to do
:27:58. > :28:03.with creating sustainable ement employment for our next generation
:28:03. > :28:07.-- sustainable employment. A quick point there? Ewan mentioned the
:28:07. > :28:11.fact about poverty. Poverty is one of the social issues and the social
:28:11. > :28:16.problems that we have in Scotland, right, and the other point was
:28:16. > :28:20.about the oil. The oil will only last about 50 years or so, that's
:28:20. > :28:27.what's been forecast. I would like to add that Scotland has enjoyed
:28:27. > :28:30.prosperity for over 300 years with the act of union in 1707. We cannot
:28:30. > :28:35.deny that. After the that, the Victorians have increased the
:28:35. > :28:39.wealth of Scotland and I think it will be devastating if Scotland
:28:39. > :28:43.splits... Profits of empire are all around us? We can look at the
:28:43. > :28:46.castles we have. It's not an insecure country. Scots have
:28:46. > :28:49.prospered in Scotland and they've been able to migrate down to
:28:49. > :28:53.England and get work. There is no work in Scotland at the moment and
:28:53. > :28:56.this is not another issue that we haven't touched on.
:28:57. > :29:03.I think it's really important to emphasise that this debate is much
:29:03. > :29:10.less about rejecting Britain and much more about Scotland embracing
:29:10. > :29:14.itself, empowering itself, giving powers to the world, it's not a
:29:14. > :29:18.separatist movement, about inclusion. It's about Scotland's
:29:18. > :29:22.future. What sort of Government do we want? Do we want it to reflect
:29:22. > :29:25.our values, priorities, and help us achieve our ambitions? I think when
:29:25. > :29:30.the Scottish people get the chance to take that opportunity, they will
:29:30. > :29:36.grassp it with both hands and we can move confidently into the 21st
:29:36. > :29:41.century. What about England? Would England be better off for it? Would
:29:41. > :29:46.Wales be better off for it? should establish its own political
:29:46. > :29:48.identity of where it wants to be in the 21st century. In terms of Wales
:29:48. > :29:53.and the north of England for the Social Democrats, if they don't
:29:53. > :29:59.want Scotland to go alone and become a beacon of social democracy,
:29:59. > :30:01.what do we do, do we follow the path of the Tories or follow Labour
:30:01. > :30:06.for another few generations promising they are going to deal
:30:06. > :30:12.with poverty and not do it in our lifetimes. Some are arguing it's
:30:12. > :30:17.not a beacon of social democracy on match day in Glasgow, is it?
:30:17. > :30:19.began by talking about the UK. Given where we are and the
:30:19. > :30:23.personalities, we are focusing on the needs of Scotland in particular.
:30:23. > :30:28.If we think about this, it's all very well to say there's only the
:30:28. > :30:32.past and that's part of the historians talking about the past.
:30:32. > :30:37.There was a present once and a future once, we are talking about
:30:37. > :30:41.things extended in time. A new kind of entity was created called
:30:41. > :30:46.Britain. Scotland needn't see itself as losing but gaining, just
:30:46. > :30:50.as we'll talk later about same sex marriages and people entering into
:30:50. > :30:54.unitys, it creates something larger. It's exceedingly important that
:30:54. > :30:59.Scots be proud, that they generate their cultural identity and so on.
:30:59. > :31:03.Those things that happen, whether in painting or so on, the Scottish
:31:03. > :31:13.movements went on within the union, no reason why that's going to stop
:31:13. > :31:13.
:31:13. > :31:21.I am concerned about the idea that we give up sthack was an
:31:21. > :31:28.inretchment and then say, "What have we done now?" An enrichment?
:31:28. > :31:33.We have an enrichment through our welfare state. Much of what was
:31:33. > :31:37.best in the history of the United Kingdom the Scots want to stand by.
:31:37. > :31:43.The Scots insistence on a priority in health. These are the things we
:31:43. > :31:49.are holding to hear and which both the Tories and the Labour are
:31:49. > :31:53.frittering away in the south. the Justice Minister said the Scots
:31:53. > :31:57.are a compassionate people. What does that mean? To have a society
:31:57. > :32:01.in which you are pursuing the politics of greed, constantly
:32:01. > :32:05.telling people you are a taxpayer but these spongers, these
:32:05. > :32:09.scroungers are trying to get money away from you, building class
:32:09. > :32:17.hatred. That is something we are passionately opposed to.
:32:17. > :32:23.APPLAUSE Let's have a quick show of hands. Who supports,
:32:23. > :32:28.unrepresentative of course, this is not binding, by the way! Who
:32:28. > :32:36.supports the union? Put your hand up. And who wants outright
:32:36. > :32:38.independence? It's pretty evenly split. He's not sure. No, I'm not
:32:38. > :32:46.going there. Thank you all very much indeed.
:32:46. > :32:51.APPLAUSE Now, if you would like to have your
:32:51. > :32:55.say on that debate, log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions. You will
:32:55. > :33:00.find links to continue the conversation online. We are also
:33:00. > :33:05.debating live this morning from the Leith Academy in Edinburgh - should
:33:05. > :33:09.gay couples have the right to marry? And if you would like to be
:33:09. > :33:12.in the audience in future, e-mail audiencetbq@mentorn.tv. We are in
:33:12. > :33:21.Southampton next week, Oxford on February 12th and in Cambridge the
:33:21. > :33:24.week after that. David Cameron has said he supports
:33:24. > :33:28.same sex marriage, because he believes marriage brings advantage
:33:28. > :33:32.to society as a whole. He plans to launch a consultation on gay
:33:32. > :33:37.marriage in March. Here in Scotland, a recent consultation on this
:33:37. > :33:41.received over 50 ,000 responses. Tomorrow the equality network is
:33:41. > :33:46.lobbying the Scottish Parliament to crack on with changing the law. But
:33:46. > :33:51.the Archbishop of York, the second most powerful man in the Church of
:33:51. > :33:56.England, says it is not the role of the state to say what marriage is.
:33:56. > :34:01.So should gay couples have the right to marry? It is something
:34:01. > :34:05.which is causing huge arguments and debate of course in the Church of
:34:05. > :34:09.Scotland. We asked them to send a representative here to The Big
:34:09. > :34:15.Questions this morning but they didn't think it in their interests
:34:15. > :34:20.to do so. We do however have from the Free Church of Scotland, which
:34:20. > :34:24.broke away from the Church of Scotland many months ago, Reverend
:34:24. > :34:33.Alex MacDonald, and Gordon McDonald from Care, a Christian pressure
:34:33. > :34:38.group. We were chatter earlier and you said it is God's plan for human
:34:38. > :34:46.sexuality. A man and a woman in marriage. What do you mean? I
:34:46. > :34:52.suppose the question is, why should we be looking to the Bible for
:34:52. > :34:57.social policy in the 21st century? I think it's true that that is the
:34:57. > :35:02.view that the Bible very clearly puts across but it has also been
:35:02. > :35:07.the pattern of the social institution of marriage across all
:35:07. > :35:12.cultures from time immemorial, that one man, one woman is marriage. I
:35:12. > :35:16.know there've been departures from that in various ways. We are not
:35:16. > :35:20.talking about something of a small interest of a small group of people
:35:20. > :35:24.called the Church. The Bible is your starting point. Sure. It is
:35:24. > :35:27.important to say, as a lot of people at home of an opinion will
:35:27. > :35:31.point out that it says lots of things in the Bible, at one stage
:35:31. > :35:39.if you work on the Sabbath you should be put to death. I don't
:35:39. > :35:43.know if you are worried thabtd this morning yourself. Of course, Jesus
:35:43. > :35:48.interneted the Old Testament and he said he is Lord of the Sabbath and
:35:48. > :35:56.it is right to do good on the Sabbath day. I hope I'm doing good
:35:56. > :36:00.today. Witchs should be killed, adulterers, we should keep slaves
:36:00. > :36:04.and not beat them too harshly, it says why. Should we be taking
:36:04. > :36:09.social policy from this? That's getting very complicated.
:36:09. > :36:16.really. What you are saying is that is part of the Old Testament cannon
:36:16. > :36:20.law or social law. Where does Jesus condemn gay marriage? Jesus
:36:20. > :36:25.reinforces what the Old Testament does say about marriage - that
:36:25. > :36:29.marriage is the pattern for human sexuality that God has laid down.
:36:29. > :36:34.And any departure from that, including adultery or the breaking
:36:34. > :36:39.of marriage, and homosexuality is a departure from that standard that
:36:39. > :36:44.God has given. That's been the basis. We've been talking about
:36:45. > :36:48.Scottish identity. That's been one of the fundamentals of sosh social
:36:48. > :36:54.life, including education, -- Scottish social life, including
:36:54. > :36:59.education and health and so on. It's a huge social experiment in
:36:59. > :37:06.social engineering... What is going to happen? We don't know what is
:37:06. > :37:10.going to happen. The whole respect for this entity of marriage will be
:37:10. > :37:15.lowered. The whole question of stability of a man and a woman
:37:15. > :37:19.bringing up their own children will be sidelined in society. Ruth, you
:37:19. > :37:22.got married in South Africa. You married in a church. The respect
:37:22. > :37:27.for the institution of marriage will be lowered. How do you answer
:37:27. > :37:33.that point? I think he is barking up the wrong tree, to be honest...
:37:33. > :37:37.APPLAUSE Jesus said nothing about homosexuality in the Bible. If
:37:37. > :37:42.Gordon goes back and reads his Bible he will see that. Is Gordon
:37:42. > :37:46.advocating that divorced people should be forced to remarry,
:37:46. > :37:49.because Jesus was against divorce and he came out against the Old
:37:49. > :37:54.Testament view that divorce was OK. The whole concept of marriage has
:37:54. > :37:59.evolved over the years. It predates the Christian religion. Lots of
:37:59. > :38:02.different views on marriage have awe bounded throughout the ageing.
:38:02. > :38:08.One of the arguments people will put is that civil partnership is
:38:08. > :38:12.marriage in every sense. No. don't think so? That's not good
:38:12. > :38:17.enough? No, and there are a number of reasons for that. As part of a
:38:17. > :38:21.civil partnership we are unable to express our faith beliefs. And
:38:21. > :38:26.express our faith. It is supposed to be a fundamental human right
:38:26. > :38:31.that we are able to include our faith in everything that we do. We
:38:31. > :38:37.have a Minister who would have been quite prepared to marry us had the
:38:37. > :38:43.law allowed him to in Scotland. But because we wanted a marriage that
:38:43. > :38:49.involved our faith, we had to go abroad. Are they married? No, I
:38:49. > :38:53.believe marriage is between one man and one woman. I have a marriage
:38:53. > :39:03.certificate in my purse which tells us that we are married.
:39:03. > :39:09.APPLAUSE Are they married? They are not married, because marriage is
:39:09. > :39:13.defined by God, between a man and a woman. He defines it in seven
:39:14. > :39:18.different ways in the Bible. Gordon and his church are entitled to
:39:18. > :39:22.their view and no-one is trying to impose same sex marriage on any
:39:22. > :39:27.religious group. We agree with the majority of Scots who want same sex
:39:27. > :39:32.couples to have the same right to get married civily and for those
:39:32. > :39:36.religious bodies who want to conduct same sex marriages to be
:39:36. > :39:44.able to. APPLAUSE What I would challenge
:39:44. > :39:49.Gordon on... Gordon, please let me speak. What I would challenge
:39:49. > :39:55.Gordon on, do you respect the freedoms of quakers and Unitarians
:39:56. > :40:00.who want to be able to conduct same sex marriages but are banned from
:40:00. > :40:04.doing so? It would be opposed because there is a legal precedent
:40:04. > :40:10.which says she is a public authority. That would apply to
:40:10. > :40:14.Ministers of religion as well. The European Court of Human Rights
:40:14. > :40:21.changes its understanding, girks don't understand your reference.
:40:21. > :40:25.Tom's point. Don't worry about it. It is a codicil. He said that
:40:25. > :40:29.certain religious organisations want to carry this out. Tom's
:40:29. > :40:38.question is, did you respect their religious right snods I respect
:40:38. > :40:43.everybody's freedom of -- I respect everybody's freedom of religion.
:40:43. > :40:51.Thank you for saying that. disproportionate effect of
:40:51. > :40:56.legalising this outweighs the rest. He is missing the point. If a
:40:56. > :41:00.Catholic priest or a Jewish Rabbi was taken to court for refusing to
:41:00. > :41:06.marry a Catholic person and a Jewish person on the grounds of
:41:06. > :41:11.their faith it would be thrown out. We know it would be a joke, because
:41:11. > :41:17.that expectation is not there. In the same way that I would certainly
:41:17. > :41:24.not seek to approach somebody who was distinctly opposed to same sex
:41:24. > :41:29.marriage, to want to marry me. It is just a fundamental misnomer. I
:41:29. > :41:34.respect and recognise your right not only to say that you are
:41:34. > :41:38.opposed to it and to say it as vehemently as you wish. I also
:41:38. > :41:48.recognise your right to refuse to practice that. Did you recognise
:41:48. > :41:58.the right of a registrar who has a conscientious objection to that?
:41:58. > :41:58.
:41:58. > :42:02.Indeed. Allow me to answer that. If those who are part of the policy
:42:02. > :42:07.making took a very careful look at how that is being dealt with across
:42:07. > :42:11.the world, and in the country that I got married in... But we are
:42:11. > :42:16.talking about Britain, case law in Britain. I'm asking tow remember
:42:16. > :42:20.that policy makers have to look outwith where these situations have
:42:20. > :42:29.arisen before. In a country like South Africa, where it remains a
:42:29. > :42:33.huge debate, a person can register as formally opposed to same sex
:42:33. > :42:38.marriage and they are legally registered as not required to do so.
:42:38. > :42:43.You respect that right to oppose. This is the point. Absolutely.
:42:43. > :42:48.I will come to you in a second, I know you are a practising Catholic.
:42:48. > :42:58.We'll go to you first. What saddens me about Gordon's argument is the
:42:58. > :42:59.
:42:59. > :43:04.lack of the use of the word "love". APPLAUSE For me, marriage is about
:43:04. > :43:10.what -- if one of my children was gay and wanted to get married, I
:43:10. > :43:15.would love her no less than I would love any other. You create a
:43:15. > :43:20.division. That is not true that. Argument was put forward to silence
:43:20. > :43:23.our argument. I love my children. I love people who I know who are
:43:23. > :43:29.homosexual. Some of your best friends? As a Christian I love
:43:29. > :43:33.everybody. The point is marriage is not just about love. Marriage is
:43:33. > :43:37.about forming a new unit in society. It is about providing a context for
:43:37. > :43:41.raising children. Marriage is a lot more than that.
:43:41. > :43:47.APPLAUSE It is about more than just a context, Gordon, for raising
:43:47. > :43:54.children, some would argue. John Haldane, the Pope only recently
:43:54. > :43:58.said gay marriage undermines the future of humanity. Are you with
:43:58. > :44:03.his holiness on that one? I'm more interested in the question of the
:44:03. > :44:08.nature of marriage as a society. What about what the Pope said?
:44:08. > :44:14.can address that and move to the other thing. It is clear the Roman
:44:14. > :44:18.Catholic's view on this matter. They are strong words aren't they.
:44:18. > :44:21.He has in mind the institution of marriage as he understands it is
:44:21. > :44:26.the principal means through which generations are produced and
:44:26. > :44:29.through which society is sustained and so on. He has an understanding
:44:30. > :44:34.of what constitutes, the larger sense, in which marriage is central
:44:34. > :44:40.to that. Can I move this, because this is a larger issue than just
:44:40. > :44:42.what religious people think. That's been put straight off. We live in a
:44:42. > :44:47.pluralist society and there's a diversity of positions and
:44:47. > :44:51.interests and so on. It seems to me that the civil partnership phase of
:44:51. > :44:53.that was an attempt to try to address that. I think there are
:44:53. > :44:57.difficulty and people can object in one way or another, but that seems
:44:57. > :45:03.to me a reasonable response to these contested issues. What comes
:45:03. > :45:06.up now is the question of marriage. What I would say is this. Marriage
:45:06. > :45:10.is an institution that is not within the gift of Government to
:45:10. > :45:14.define or redefine. We are not talking about an extension of
:45:14. > :45:18.marriage but a redefinition of marriage. This is an important
:45:18. > :45:21.point. If you say the basis on which marriage should be made
:45:21. > :45:27.available to people is love, affection, desire and so on, it
:45:27. > :45:32.seems to me that once you depart from one man and one woman, the
:45:32. > :45:37.traditional perception of marriage, you have no grounds of opposition
:45:37. > :45:47.to multi-partner marriage... Can I finish this. And indeed, and this
:45:47. > :45:53.
:45:53. > :45:56.movement exists, the GSA movement, Incest opens the door to sibling
:45:56. > :45:59.marriage and the argument is exactly the same which is why
:45:59. > :46:02.shouldn't people who love one another and feel a commitment to
:46:02. > :46:06.one another and want to be together, why should that be restricted to
:46:06. > :46:10.two or three? This is a distraction, if you are talking about polygamy,
:46:10. > :46:14.if you look around the world, 50 countries, polygamy in legal. Only
:46:14. > :46:20.one of them is same sex marriage also legal. If you are going to
:46:20. > :46:24.make my connections, it would be between mixed sex marriages and
:46:24. > :46:28.polygamy. The first point is that it's not down to the state to
:46:28. > :46:32.define what is and isn't marriage? I don't think anyone owns the
:46:32. > :46:38.definition of marriage, those groups that don't want to conduct
:46:38. > :46:41.same sex marriages, the majority of Scots, 61% in the recent Scottish
:46:42. > :46:47.social attitude survey say they do agree with same sex marriage and
:46:47. > :46:52.most people, like Alex Salmond, who wants Scotland to be a progressive
:46:52. > :46:57.beacon agree that lesbian and gay people should have the same rights
:46:57. > :47:01.under the law. John Sentamu said he feels the hand of dictatorship
:47:01. > :47:06.coming in. He says it's a matter of tradition and history, you can't
:47:06. > :47:09.change it overnight, that's the sort of thing dictators do. He also
:47:09. > :47:14.said that he's all for and supported civil partnerships
:47:14. > :47:20.because that encourages friendship. I would question that because the
:47:20. > :47:25.groups opposing this are the same ones that opposed the repeal of
:47:25. > :47:28.section 28. Someone's behind you. When I hear John Sentamu say these
:47:28. > :47:34.things and Mario Conti and our friend over there, I feel
:47:34. > :47:39.embarrassed to be a Christian, I really do. You know, the whole
:47:39. > :47:43.Bible defines seven forms of marriage, including polygamy. How
:47:43. > :47:48.did Adam and Eve have grandchildren, you know. Marriage is something
:47:48. > :47:52.that evolves, it's a cultural thing within society and it to evolve to
:47:52. > :47:57.reflect the traditions of society as the Bible did reflect the
:47:57. > :48:02.traditions current in those days. Let's bring it into a more recent
:48:02. > :48:06.context. I grew up in a country where black-and-white people were
:48:06. > :48:10.forbidden from getting married and the argument was that if we allow
:48:10. > :48:14.black-and-white people to get married, mixed marriage, and it
:48:14. > :48:17.wasn't only black-and-whites, it was Indians and mixed race people,
:48:17. > :48:21.it would cause such social deterioration in the country. Now,
:48:21. > :48:25.what I've actually seen in the country I was born in, when those
:48:25. > :48:28.laws were done away with, that country has socially flourished,
:48:28. > :48:35.despite the other problems that it has that are a knock-on effect from
:48:35. > :48:40.the original laws. Social problems, yes? But that aspect and that part
:48:41. > :48:45.of the rainbow nation is flowished? Yes. What about that? You hear the
:48:45. > :48:51.objections? You hear the argument that this would in fact, contrary
:48:51. > :48:55.to what you are saying, it would bolster, strengthen and celebrate
:48:55. > :48:59.the institution of marriage? think it would undoubtedly change
:48:59. > :49:03.it. The last point that was made, what's happened in South Africa is
:49:03. > :49:08.perfectly right because, of course, it's in line with the universal
:49:08. > :49:14.declaration of human rights. Which includes gay marriage. No, it
:49:15. > :49:19.doesn't. It says men and women of age without limitation, due to race,
:49:19. > :49:24.nationality, or religion, have the right to marry. Now, if it had
:49:24. > :49:27.meant that there would be same sex marriage, it would have included it
:49:27. > :49:32.without limitation of sex or sexuality. But it's not done that.
:49:32. > :49:37.Why? I think if there is to be a change in this, it's to be done
:49:37. > :49:41.universally, that it should be done through the universal declaration
:49:41. > :49:45.on human rights. Across the world? Yes, that's the basis that's always
:49:46. > :49:49.been recognised as a universal declaration of marriage. That's
:49:49. > :49:53.unlukely to happen then isn't it, David? Yes. The problem I see is
:49:53. > :49:59.that we are going slightly away from the main point and the main
:49:59. > :50:04.point is that the definition of marriage is essentially a Christian
:50:04. > :50:08.definition of marriage and we have Gordon and Alex there. I thoroughly
:50:08. > :50:12.understand, I thoroughly accept their point of view, but it's not
:50:12. > :50:18.the only point of view. There is an alternative interpretation.
:50:18. > :50:23.APPLAUSE What about the point of universal
:50:23. > :50:29.declaration? If I can just continue with the point I'm making. There is
:50:29. > :50:33.an alternative interpretation. Most of the objection to same sex or
:50:33. > :50:39.homosexuality is based upon New Testament scripture and it's based
:50:39. > :50:43.upon one Greek word that's suddenly become called homosexual. It
:50:43. > :50:49.doesn't, in the opinion of approximately 50% of people, mean
:50:49. > :50:58.homosexual. In fact, it's a word that didn't even exist prior to
:50:58. > :51:05.Paul writing it in the Corinthians. What does it mean then? The word
:51:05. > :51:11.itself is a conisoiti. It's a mixture of two Greek words. It
:51:11. > :51:20.didn't exist or there's no record of it existing prior to Paul
:51:20. > :51:25.writing it. In a little translation, it's man bed or man marital bed.
:51:25. > :51:30.That does not translate into homosexuality. Now, if we take the
:51:30. > :51:35.Roman Catholic version, the new Jerusalem Bible, if we look in one
:51:35. > :51:40.Corinthians, it's translated as sod mites. If we look at one Timothy,
:51:40. > :51:49.exact think same word is translated as homosexuals. The King James
:51:49. > :51:54.version of the Bible, that's same word is appearing as those who
:51:54. > :51:59.abuse themselves. So ultimately, if it's two people getting married, do
:51:59. > :52:09.you believe that God cares about their sexuality and their gender?
:52:09. > :52:10.
:52:10. > :52:17.Personally, I don't believe he cares one jot about it. He didn't
:52:17. > :52:22.answer your point, but respond to what he said, Alex? I think it's a
:52:22. > :52:27.fundamental point I raised. There are some hands here. When you said
:52:27. > :52:31.it again, hands shot up to answer it. I wonder when I hear Christian
:52:31. > :52:35.groups talk about this issue, whether they've ever considered the
:52:35. > :52:39.possibility that Jesus himself might have been gay. I mean, he was
:52:39. > :52:42.a confirmed bachelor, we know that, and from what I remember of the New
:52:42. > :52:47.Testament, he hung around mainly with men and they went, as he put
:52:47. > :52:53.it, fishing for men. At the very least, he could have been in the
:52:53. > :53:03.closet and, you know, it's not exactly an unknown phenomenon,
:53:03. > :53:10.especially mongrel jous leaders to be critical -- especially among
:53:11. > :53:16.religious leaders. Je sous - people live a sell bait life because they
:53:16. > :53:19.want to follow Christ. So there's no problem with people having
:53:19. > :53:24.homosexual feelings, this is about whether marriage should be
:53:24. > :53:28.redefined and marriage, for thousands of years, the point that
:53:28. > :53:31.John Sentamu has been saying, it's between a man and woman, it's a
:53:31. > :53:35.social purpose for the common good of society and it's not been within
:53:35. > :53:40.the role of the state to define or redefine it. Ruth, you heard the
:53:40. > :53:47.points very clearly made by Gordon. You are an historic figure, if I
:53:47. > :53:51.may say so. OK. The first leader of any of the main parties in the
:53:51. > :53:55.British Isles and United Kingdom to be openly gay but you are not
:53:55. > :53:59.married, are you? Would you like to marry your partner? I think I'll
:53:59. > :54:03.leave my home life out of this because that debate is much bigger
:54:03. > :54:07.than this. One thing I find interesting is that I used to work
:54:07. > :54:10.for the BBC and I used to get very angry that when the discussions
:54:10. > :54:14.about gay marriage came up, we always picked somebody from the
:54:15. > :54:20.church. That was the anti-voice and we always picked somebody from a
:54:20. > :54:26.gay group as the pro-voice because I think it's a misnomer to say
:54:26. > :54:31.everybody who's gay wants marriage, everybody who's of faith is anti-
:54:31. > :54:35.it, that's what they say. I'm happy to see David say what he said
:54:35. > :54:38.because it seems to me that in terms to have debate, it's not
:54:38. > :54:45.about whether you are a person of faith or not, I'm a member of the
:54:45. > :54:50.chufpb of Scotland, the ladies here are clearly belonging to a
:54:50. > :54:55.religious belief as well. In this country, it seems to be about age.
:54:55. > :54:59.All the polls, whether it was the Times poll, two thirds support for
:54:59. > :55:04.gay marriage, the Scottish social attitude survey said 61% support
:55:04. > :55:14.for gay marriage, it's a generational issue. This isn't a
:55:14. > :55:14.
:55:14. > :55:17.faith issue. Changing with great app idity? Yes, -- rapidity. It's
:55:17. > :55:21.worth pointing out that this isn't as clear cut as people seem to
:55:21. > :55:27.think it is and perhaps somebody like myself and lots of other
:55:27. > :55:31.people are formed more by their age than their personal circumstances.
:55:31. > :55:36.There's a danger, Gordon or Alec, that if given what Ruth has said
:55:36. > :55:40.and if she's right, that the church is opposing this would become
:55:40. > :55:44.increasingly irrelevant. Do you fear that, or is it all about
:55:44. > :55:46.sticking to universal eternal principles? There are eternal
:55:46. > :55:50.principles about what's good for society and many churches have many
:55:50. > :55:54.young people in them, such as destiny church in Glasgow, other
:55:55. > :56:00.churches like that which are growing which we'd hold to a
:56:00. > :56:05.traditional Orthodox view. You are worried about society. You talked
:56:05. > :56:08.about the riots in England and said you believed that came from a lot
:56:09. > :56:13.of family breakdown. Is this not a way to strengthen the family and
:56:13. > :56:17.marriage and to have people growing up in a loving relaceship? Well,
:56:17. > :56:20.the issue about family breakdown goes much beyond this particular
:56:20. > :56:24.debate that we are having today. It's been happening for the last 40
:56:24. > :56:28.years in this country and we are seeing the consequence of that in
:56:28. > :56:33.terms of educational achievement and health outcomes and in terms of
:56:33. > :56:40.this lack of respect for law and order which we saw last summer.
:56:40. > :56:45.Ross? To bring this back to reality, in terms of Scotland, 58% of
:56:45. > :56:48.marriages in Scotland last year were secular. The vast majority,
:56:48. > :56:53.human society conducts more marriages than the Catholic Church
:56:53. > :56:57.in Scotland. So people are voting with their feet. We would love to
:56:57. > :57:01.have same sex marriage because we support the whole fact that some of
:57:01. > :57:08.the Christian people have said here is that marriage is about love,
:57:08. > :57:14.it's about social aspects and everybody deserves that.
:57:14. > :57:17.Look, we've discussed several things, what people think about the
:57:17. > :57:21.ethics of homosexuality, what we think about marriage and now this
:57:21. > :57:25.is an issue about marriage and Ruth is right to say there are people
:57:25. > :57:28.who are divided within religious groups and not everybody who's gay
:57:28. > :57:31.wants to get married. If the question is a question about
:57:31. > :57:35.marriage, it seems to me that we need to negotiate some way through
:57:35. > :57:38.here, right. It's very clear that there are religious groups that
:57:39. > :57:43.have very distinctive and particular views about this. There
:57:43. > :57:46.is one possibility that it's not so far been discussed which is
:57:46. > :57:50.effectively for the state to withdraw itself to some extent from
:57:50. > :57:53.the institution of marriage to say we are going to have a form of
:57:53. > :57:59.association that's available there, whether it's called civil
:57:59. > :58:04.partnership, that... That good enough for you? No, there's a
:58:04. > :58:09.broader principle, equality under the law. Lesbian and gays in
:58:09. > :58:14.Scotland deserve equality under the law, the same law should apply to
:58:14. > :58:18.them. It's a separate institution. I just made the point that I cannot
:58:18. > :58:28.under the universal declaration of human rights practice my faith in
:58:28. > :58:36.
:58:36. > :58:41.terms of my marriage because it's ALL SPEAK AT ONCE
:58:41. > :58:46.Between a man and a woman which is where it started if you go all the
:58:46. > :58:50.way back... It's not where it started. Genesis... We are out of