:00:24. > :00:29.Good morning. Welcome to The Big Questions, live from Wychwood
:00:29. > :00:32.School in Oxford. I'm Nicky Campbell.
:00:32. > :00:38.The Government's reforms to the English National Health Service are
:00:38. > :00:44.facing a mounting tide of Critics accuse it of privatisation
:00:44. > :00:49.by the back door. Our first big question: Should 49% of the NHS
:00:49. > :00:54.become a business opportunity? This health professionals as the NHS
:00:54. > :01:01.needs to be run as a business and hospitals should be encouraged to
:01:01. > :01:05.do more profit-making work. This week, the General Synod failed yet
:01:05. > :01:12.again to concentrate their first female bishop, an idea first
:01:12. > :01:14.discussed in 1966. Our next big question: Are religions sexist?
:01:14. > :01:18.Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin says allowing opponents to bypass the
:01:18. > :01:22.authority of a woman bishop is akin to sanctioning apartheid.
:01:22. > :01:25.On Friday in a case brought by the National Secular Society, a judge
:01:25. > :01:28.ruled that Bideford Council should not hold acts of prayer as part of
:01:28. > :01:31.its formal meetings. Our last big question: Is Christianity being
:01:31. > :01:35.marginalised? The philosopher and atheist Alain de Botton says
:01:35. > :01:45.secularism has gone too far. Welcome, everyone, to The Big
:01:45. > :01:45.
:01:45. > :01:48.Lord Lawson, the former Chancellor, likened the National Health Service
:01:48. > :01:53.to "the closest thing the English have to a religion, with those who
:01:53. > :01:59.practise in it regarding themselves as its priesthood". And this
:01:59. > :02:06.weekend, this week, the priesthood came out in force to defend it,
:02:06. > :02:09.with 17 professional bodies voting against the government's proposals.
:02:09. > :02:13.One of the most contentious issues is the plan to allow hospitals to
:02:13. > :02:16.raise nearly half their income from the private sector. Should 49% of
:02:16. > :02:23.the NHS become a business opportunity?
:02:23. > :02:29.Dr pinnacles, you but absolutely enthusiastic about this idea -- Dr
:02:29. > :02:33.Una Coales. Explain to people watching this morning how a large
:02:33. > :02:38.part of a foundation hospital having private health care will
:02:38. > :02:44.benefit the many. I am absolutely in support of this because it is
:02:45. > :02:50.the only way to save the NHS. Last year we spent �122 billion on the
:02:50. > :02:56.NHS to deliver care to 62 million people. And yet we know the rising
:02:56. > :03:01.costs of health care. If we look at hospitals and say, you can access
:03:01. > :03:07.their profit in the private sector and pump the money back into the
:03:07. > :03:12.NHS, or well done. I am a south London GP. Queen Mary's Sidcup
:03:12. > :03:16.closed their casualty department in 2010 and that caused uproar. The
:03:16. > :03:22.closest casualty department is in Woolwich. They have to travel all
:03:22. > :03:27.that way. They also closed the maternity wing. They closed their
:03:27. > :03:31.cancer wards. Patients were furious. The Woolwich hospital Queen
:03:32. > :03:37.Elizabeth is strapped for cash. They had a deficit. What did they
:03:37. > :03:44.do to try to save money? They closed the urology ward. What did
:03:44. > :03:48.the surgeons say? What is happening to my cancer patients? It is about
:03:48. > :03:55.patient safety and lives. So that money will be ploughed back into
:03:55. > :04:03.the NHS? Yes. Better equipment? Exactly. Shorter waiting lists? You
:04:03. > :04:10.can guarantee that? Yes. The NHS is dealing with the PIP implants
:04:10. > :04:17.scandal. They are charging �1,000 for top up and will replace those
:04:17. > :04:21.others. 14,000 women want replacements, even 20,000 is �20
:04:22. > :04:27.million that can be pumped back into the NHS to treat cancer
:04:27. > :04:31.patients. It is fantastic. It is the only way. I want to know
:04:31. > :04:38.whether resources would come from to take on these extra private
:04:38. > :04:43.patients. -- where the resources. The bill, this is just part of the
:04:43. > :04:47.way the NHS is opening up to the private sector. In the
:04:47. > :04:50.circumstances which have been explained, the NHS is facing
:04:50. > :04:57.squeezed budgets, hospitals get less money for every patient they
:04:57. > :05:02.treat, they are under pressure to treat fewer patients, and to say,
:05:02. > :05:05.fill your boots and recruit as many private patients as you can means
:05:06. > :05:13.that NHS patients become second- class citizens in hospitals paid
:05:13. > :05:19.for and run by the taxpayer. Can I respond? You don't have to put your
:05:19. > :05:23.hand up! The private sector are making a lot of money. They are
:05:23. > :05:30.allocating 25% of their resources to NHS patients. A patient can say
:05:30. > :05:34.to me, I want my visit to me, and you have NHS choice. You can have
:05:34. > :05:40.it at an NHS hospital or a private hospital and it costs nothing.
:05:41. > :05:44.they are making a massive income from the private part, is there not
:05:44. > :05:47.the risk that they will take their eyes off the ball and concentrate
:05:47. > :05:54.on income rather than the inconvenience costs of the NHS
:05:54. > :05:57.patients? No. The private hospital charged the marginal costs to the
:05:58. > :06:03.NHS patient. If they don't fill their hospital up with Private
:06:03. > :06:08.Patients, they fill it up with NHS patients... Your father as a young
:06:08. > :06:11.doctor was involved in the drafting of the bill. He was a junior civil
:06:11. > :06:18.servant and he worked in Niall Bevin's office and he was involved
:06:18. > :06:22.in drafting this. When he first got a letter from a privatised pit of
:06:22. > :06:26.their health service purporting to work for the NHS for him, he looked
:06:26. > :06:34.at the embossed letter head and said "that must have cost them a
:06:34. > :06:40.bit, I wonder who they think they are trying to impress". The NHS is
:06:40. > :06:45.a huge business opportunity. The NHS is funded by taxpayers' money.
:06:45. > :06:51.That money should not be going into the pockets of private sector
:06:51. > :06:58.corporations. APPLAUSE. You say it is immoral.
:06:58. > :07:03.Yes. But what about this �20 billion funding gap by 2015?
:07:03. > :07:09.that set in stone? That is something that David Cameron has
:07:09. > :07:12.told us. We are doing our best. General practitioners and hospital
:07:12. > :07:17.doctors and all the other disciplines in the health service
:07:17. > :07:21.are now dedicated to evidence-based medicine. We don't want to be
:07:21. > :07:26.funded -- funding unnecessary procedures and operations, we don't
:07:26. > :07:32.want to be giving money to drugs that are more expensive than
:07:32. > :07:39.generic versions. We are refining continually in the NHS and we do
:07:39. > :07:44.not need this Bill to go on doing that. The Institute of economic
:07:44. > :07:47.Affairs. Will this drive costs down? The more commercialism and
:07:47. > :07:53.the more profit-seeking you have in health care, the more controlled
:07:53. > :07:59.you will have over cost... Can I stop you? The privatisation of the
:07:59. > :08:03.railways... Or health in America for example. The cost of rail
:08:03. > :08:07.tickets at the moment some people think is a national disgrace. Has
:08:07. > :08:12.that driven costs down? The way that was done was not the best way,
:08:12. > :08:16.so that is a different issue. But the number of people travelling on
:08:16. > :08:20.the railways is at a record high and there has been an enormous
:08:20. > :08:25.improvement in the quality of rolling-stock. Do much has
:08:25. > :08:29.increased. I find this argument very evidence poor. This lady was
:08:29. > :08:34.saying there is a shortage of money in the health service. There is not
:08:35. > :08:39.a shred of evidence that bringing in the private sector saves money.
:08:39. > :08:45.The private sector initiatives of the last Government were shown by
:08:45. > :08:50.the NATO to have thrown money at Independent... I disagree. They are
:08:50. > :08:56.so into the hospital, what is your tariff for an ultrasound? They say
:08:56. > :09:01.�400 because we are lumping that in with a consultant visit. You do not
:09:01. > :09:07.need a consultant... They are checking prices. The private sector
:09:07. > :09:13.can charge less. You love this idea! It is bringing down prices.
:09:13. > :09:23.The former MP and doctor. Not Kevin Davies, he is one of your
:09:23. > :09:24.
:09:24. > :09:29.colleagues! The key thing missing, I haven't understood jogger -- your
:09:29. > :09:36.argument. There is not capacity in the health service at the moment so
:09:36. > :09:41.giving over a more capacity to treat private sector patients is
:09:41. > :09:45.very dangerous, and the key thing is fairness, the huge health
:09:45. > :09:50.inequalities and inequalities of access. We know from the United
:09:50. > :09:55.States that where there is a larger private sector, that suffers.
:09:55. > :10:00.Finally my concern is this, that if the NHS is allowed to do private
:10:00. > :10:04.work, then commercial companies will say in the courts, under
:10:04. > :10:09.competition legislation, why should there be any restriction on us
:10:09. > :10:17.being able to do NHS work and that could undermine the capacity of
:10:17. > :10:20.hospitals. Steve Davis. You what 100%. Yes. You might want the
:10:20. > :10:24.government to fund health care through giving people money and
:10:24. > :10:28.vouchers but I do not see why the government should be involved in
:10:28. > :10:33.the delivery of health care. Herbert Morrison argued precisely
:10:33. > :10:38.for that, that the government should simply fund health care and
:10:38. > :10:48.not won a hospitals. You are quite right... We don't have private
:10:48. > :10:54.armies and private police. Is 1947 not different from 2012? Exactly!
:10:54. > :11:01.He spoke about the equality of sacrifice. The modern consumer does
:11:01. > :11:05.not by equality of sacrifice. you have a plural, fragmented NHS,
:11:05. > :11:12.with competitions all over the place, the people who are really
:11:12. > :11:17.expert at digging all the boxes on the tenders for a particular
:11:17. > :11:22.surface, are the big corporations, with their legal people and
:11:22. > :11:28.embossed letter heads. Down on the ground, the local, cost-effective
:11:28. > :11:32.provider has a struggle getting somebody ready to take all the
:11:32. > :11:36.boxes on that contract. We have a local example where a local
:11:36. > :11:40.provider failed to win a tender for a health service element that was
:11:40. > :11:45.needed and it was because the tender was not slick enough. That
:11:45. > :11:51.is not an argument for having big corporations come in and fragment
:11:51. > :11:57.and take away bits of the NHS that should be run by local services.
:11:57. > :12:02.Julia Manning. Can I ask you something. Will this ultimately
:12:02. > :12:09.lead to the NHS part of the hospital being driven up in
:12:09. > :12:14.standards and quality? I believe that it will. But I want to roll
:12:14. > :12:18.back. Why would people still go privately them? That is an
:12:18. > :12:24.interesting question. Over time we might see that people have access
:12:24. > :12:30.to better services because of the private investment. So it is self-
:12:30. > :12:35.defeating? We need to think what is the problem that the NHS is facing?
:12:35. > :12:38.There are three ticking time bombs. An economic problem. We do not have
:12:38. > :12:42.the investment we need. We have been warned by Standard and Poor's
:12:42. > :12:46.that unless some of the G20 countries get their public spending
:12:46. > :12:50.down in health, that we will be downgraded and we will be faced
:12:50. > :12:56.with interest rates which will mean that we have less money to invest
:12:56. > :13:05.in the NHS. There is an economic issue. The American spent twice as
:13:05. > :13:10.much as we do! Demand is rising. the Americans spend. Over five
:13:11. > :13:16.people are working to support every elderly person. In 20 years' time,
:13:16. > :13:22.under four people will be working to support every person over 70.
:13:22. > :13:26.The demographics are scary. We have to do things smarter. We have to
:13:26. > :13:31.get more investment. And responsibility. We need to be
:13:32. > :13:41.taking more responsibility for our health. We treat the NHS like we
:13:42. > :13:42.
:13:42. > :13:45.can hail it like a taxi. No X map that is unsustainable. No!
:13:45. > :13:55.solution is not private profit. Even if you are right that those
:13:55. > :13:59.are the three challenges, there is Private profit creates incentives
:13:59. > :14:03.for people. What is wrong with that? There is nothing wrong with
:14:03. > :14:07.providing a service to customers to make money. Is it wrong for Tesco
:14:07. > :14:11.to make money by selling food, which is vitally important? It's
:14:11. > :14:17.not customers... Let's clear something up for people that might
:14:17. > :14:23.be confused. I know your hand is up, I will come to you in a second. Why
:14:23. > :14:26.will it improve the lot of the NHS patients? Some people see it as
:14:26. > :14:30.some people being on Ryanair and the other part of the hospital is
:14:30. > :14:36.British Airways' first-class? about it this way, the provision of
:14:36. > :14:42.classes has been improved for most people by the advent of commercial
:14:42. > :14:46.opticians. That is the model that we need to go to. So you now pay
:14:46. > :14:49.�400 for a pair of glasses when you used to get them on the NHS? You
:14:49. > :14:52.don't have the choice to get them on the NHS any more. You are
:14:52. > :14:59.talking to a former optometrist. Many people still get NHS glasses
:14:59. > :15:02.funded by the NHS. The private sector in this country is on the
:15:02. > :15:06.verge of bankruptcy and not making any money, and selling private
:15:06. > :15:10.medicine. If you look at private sector is running it in the United
:15:10. > :15:15.States, far from bringing down prices and controlling prices,
:15:15. > :15:20.delivering an efficient system, it is the most wasteful, ludicrously
:15:20. > :15:23.inefficient system. Not because it is private, because it is
:15:23. > :15:32.incredibly heavily in regulated by the Government. There are policies
:15:32. > :15:37.which drive down supply and restrict demand. One minute. Ken
:15:37. > :15:43.has had his hand up, he is patient, a lawyer, a man with opinions on
:15:43. > :15:47.his. Is this the kind of system you want? No. I don't want to be in
:15:47. > :15:51.competition with private patients. That will eventually lead to, in
:15:51. > :16:01.general terms, the wealthy are becoming healthier and the poor
:16:01. > :16:02.
:16:02. > :16:08.A loss of hospitals have a 5% ceiling at the moment, they have...
:16:08. > :16:12.Or 2%. 2% or less. That is tiny, negligible. You are worried about
:16:12. > :16:16.the expansion of the private sector? The idea that I should take
:16:16. > :16:21.more responsibility for my health care, this idea that patients
:16:21. > :16:25.should be put in charge, it is a complete red herring. I want my
:16:25. > :16:29.doctor to advise me on what care I should have, what care I need, and
:16:29. > :16:35.then I want him to refer me to one NHS provider that supplies that
:16:35. > :16:39.care. I am a patient, I am a lawyer. Give me a book about neurology, I
:16:39. > :16:43.would not know where to start. I don't want to take more
:16:43. > :16:47.responsibility for my health care. That is why my doctor, and I have a
:16:47. > :16:56.very good GP, that is why my doctor went through years of medical
:16:56. > :17:00.training, so that he could be in I know, they're our hands up. Quick
:17:00. > :17:05.points, if we could. Yes, in the white shirt? In the introduction
:17:05. > :17:09.you asked if the NHS should make 49% of their profit from private.
:17:09. > :17:15.That is not true. It's not the case that every hospital will make 49%.
:17:15. > :17:18.The trend for the last five years... Up to 49% of income? Yes, in the
:17:18. > :17:23.last five years hospitals have been making less of their profits from
:17:23. > :17:27.private health care. This allows them to make more. I think that are
:17:27. > :17:30.two questions we should be asking. Will the Government find a way to
:17:30. > :17:36.stop private companies from cherry- picking patients? If they do this
:17:36. > :17:39.through subsidies, will they really make their �20 billion savings?
:17:39. > :17:42.cherry-picking point is a good point. Picking only the most
:17:42. > :17:48.lucrative patients full stuff you cannot do that as a provider.
:17:48. > :17:52.are two ways of determining who goes where. One is who commissions
:17:52. > :17:56.the services. Which Health Organisation has chosen the
:17:56. > :18:00.contract with the provider. They can direct patients. The other
:18:00. > :18:04.person that can direct the patient is the patient. The provider cannot
:18:04. > :18:08.cherry-pick and say, we can take those ones and not the other ones.
:18:08. > :18:13.It's simple. The provider decides which services they want to offer
:18:13. > :18:16.and do not offer the others. You offer services that are low risk,
:18:16. > :18:20.or elective surgery and you do not offer accident and emergency, you
:18:20. > :18:24.do not offer chronic care or serious mental health care. You
:18:24. > :18:28.leave those to the public sector. Then you rip off all of your
:18:28. > :18:31.trained staff from the public sector, who trained them at
:18:31. > :18:41.taxpayer's expense. You get the Government to subsidise empty beds
:18:41. > :18:41.
:18:41. > :18:45.Do what would the situation before prioritising if somebody wants a
:18:45. > :18:49.hip replacement through the NHS, somebody once it privately, to pay
:18:49. > :18:52.for it privately at the same hospital, what happens? The people
:18:52. > :18:57.in charge of commissioning our GPs. They are the most trusted
:18:57. > :19:06.professions. We have to believe and trust in doctors and GPs. They will
:19:06. > :19:09.not allow cherry-picking. What about queues for theatre? They will
:19:09. > :19:13.prioritise based on health needs. The people that need urgent care,
:19:13. > :19:20.cancer patients, they will have priority. So what is the point of
:19:20. > :19:23.paying for it? The patient never pays for it. What is the point,
:19:23. > :19:31.what with the advantages be of going private in one of the
:19:31. > :19:35.hospitals? For the NHS patient,... OK, say they need an operation for
:19:35. > :19:38.a cancer operation. You need to private hospitals, the NHS
:19:38. > :19:43.hospitals, they can decide which has the shorter waiting time.
:19:43. > :19:47.you tell me, what would be the advantage of going private? I think
:19:47. > :19:52.it is often patient experience, which I think the NHS needs to
:19:52. > :20:00.learn from. People that go private feel they are looked after better,
:20:00. > :20:02.they are more carefully monitored and catered for. Better food, nicer
:20:03. > :20:07.environments and your own room. You are paying for the extra four
:20:07. > :20:12.stocks picking the date you are treated? Yes, day and time, it is
:20:12. > :20:15.convenience. The it is not universal, this experience will
:20:15. > :20:20.benefit in the private sector. There are very dissatisfied private
:20:20. > :20:24.patients. If I can come back to the GP role with the patient, it is a
:20:24. > :20:28.genuine partnership. I have said it is based on needs, not necessarily
:20:28. > :20:32.what you want. That is the conversation that the GP and
:20:32. > :20:35.patient will half. That should result in an evidence-based pathway
:20:35. > :20:40.from their doctor-patient relationship of trust, which is
:20:40. > :20:44.what the NHS has been based on since 1948, hopefully three-way
:20:44. > :20:51.trusting relationship between the GP and specialist teams. It is
:20:51. > :20:55.better to have that of a locally organised, not corporate provided
:20:55. > :21:00.base where the NHS run the service and they may be very distant from
:21:00. > :21:06.us. If we work with local teams and local provisions, we simply cannot
:21:06. > :21:13.have 49% of hospital beds in the hand of the private sector. Where
:21:13. > :21:17.would G P's patients go? Let me put it to you that there is huge
:21:17. > :21:23.affection for the NHS in this country. It was built on a
:21:23. > :21:26.communitarian spirit of the 1940s. That is still pervasive. It is
:21:26. > :21:31.acknowledged, people on this side of the argument acknowledge that if
:21:31. > :21:37.it is not the best health care service system bang for buck in the
:21:37. > :21:42.world, if it ain't broke... Why fix it? Because, even if that were true,
:21:42. > :21:47.I would reject that, but even if it were true we cannot go on as we are.
:21:47. > :21:53.Like all developing countries, we are facing severe rising costs for
:21:53. > :21:57.health care. So why go for the American system? Nobody is
:21:57. > :22:02.proposing to follow the American system. That is the way we are
:22:02. > :22:04.going. Nobody else in the world has our system. The systems used in
:22:04. > :22:08.continental Europe have significantly better results in
:22:08. > :22:14.many areas. The American system is not one that anyone in their right
:22:14. > :22:20.mind wants to follow. That is your Holy Grail! I would never advocate
:22:20. > :22:30.it. Holy grail, a good phrase for Sunday morning. If you would like
:22:30. > :22:31.
:22:31. > :22:36.We are also debating live from Wychwood School and Oxford are
:22:36. > :22:40.religions sexist? And his Christianity been marginalised?
:22:40. > :22:43.Tell us what you think about those topics and send your ideas for
:22:43. > :22:49.future debate saw any comments you would like to make about the
:22:49. > :22:55.programme. They are still debating. Judaism,
:22:55. > :23:00.Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism, they all had their origins
:23:00. > :23:05.millennia ago in societies which were run and ruled by men. Today,
:23:05. > :23:09.women's status in many countries are very different, with a quality
:23:09. > :23:14.enshrined in law. But many religions continue to treat women
:23:14. > :23:24.as subject to different rules, even as inferior to men. Our religion
:23:24. > :23:24.
:23:24. > :23:29.sexist? -- his religion sexist? Good morning. Explain to people
:23:29. > :23:33.this morning why who you think that women cannot be full bishops and
:23:33. > :23:38.should not be for bishops with full responsibility for the diocese?
:23:38. > :23:43.That is a big jump from the original discussion. We will find
:23:43. > :23:48.out onto that in a moment. We will start with this. I go back to the
:23:48. > :23:52.Bible. My understanding is that... Let me just say, first of all, that
:23:52. > :23:57.I have no problem with women reaching the highest of any
:23:57. > :24:01.profession in the secular world. I think it is brilliant. We have Her
:24:01. > :24:05.Majesty, we have had a female prime minister. I think it is great. But
:24:05. > :24:10.I do not believe it to be right in church. I go back to the Bible,
:24:10. > :24:18.going back to Genesis, that Adam was made first and Eva was his
:24:18. > :24:23.helper. Secondly, in Corinthians, Chapter 11, we look at Christ being
:24:23. > :24:30.ahead of everybody. Mandy in the head of woman. I just think that,
:24:30. > :24:33.in the Church, it is not right for women to be in authority over men.
:24:33. > :24:37.That is mirrored in marriage. That is not to say there is not
:24:37. > :24:41.partnership between the man and the woman in marriage. The ultimate
:24:41. > :24:45.final decision? I believe the ultimate, final decision comes from
:24:45. > :24:50.the husband. At times, I am thinking, this is great. We have
:24:50. > :24:54.discussed it, we have come to a conclusion or maybe we have not,
:24:54. > :24:58.but my husband can make the final decision. And you don't have to?
:24:58. > :25:01.There are times when I am quite glad that I don't have to. But by
:25:01. > :25:06.and large we do everything in partnership. I believe that to be
:25:06. > :25:10.right. I see that as what we call in at the church as headship. I do
:25:10. > :25:16.have a problem, in the church only, with women being in authority over
:25:16. > :25:26.men and that is where I stand. fans have gone up. That is that
:25:26. > :25:31.
:25:31. > :25:41.sorted, then? I could easily just Wait, baloney, let's have a look at
:25:41. > :25:41.
:25:41. > :25:44.the Bible. Timothy, 2: 12. You might not like it, but it is in
:25:45. > :25:48.there. I permit not a woman to teach nor to have dominion over
:25:48. > :25:53.Rain Man but to be in quietness. We do not want that this morning from
:25:53. > :25:57.you. Adam was first formed, and Adam was not beguiled but the woman,
:25:57. > :26:01.being beguiled, has fallen into transgression. Is this yet another
:26:01. > :26:05.part of the scripture that you want to conveniently ignore? I don't
:26:05. > :26:11.want to ignore it at all. What I want to say about that is that you
:26:11. > :26:15.have a particular interpretation borne out by the experiences of men
:26:15. > :26:19.at that time. We are not there now. Actually, I don't think they were
:26:19. > :26:24.just talking about scripture, church, synagogue, they were
:26:24. > :26:28.talking about the community at that time. We are not in that community
:26:28. > :26:37.now. It is a huge jump to bring it from there and say that is exactly
:26:37. > :26:45.how we need to behave now in the 21st century. Alison, some people
:26:45. > :26:51.have tipped Rose to become a bishop because she is a fantastic vicar.
:26:51. > :26:55.If she was, would you recognise her? No, I am afraid not. Yes, she
:26:55. > :26:58.can be a bishop, but I would not want to be under her authority in
:26:58. > :27:05.the parish or church that I was in. I would move and going to a
:27:05. > :27:08.different church. He would move? Not my house, but I would go to a
:27:08. > :27:11.different church where there was not the authority of a female
:27:11. > :27:15.bishop. Or we would have proper provision in the Church of England
:27:15. > :27:19.to have a male bishop in authority for people that were unable to
:27:19. > :27:27.accept the authority of a woman bishop. You cannot have that. The
:27:27. > :27:32.church either accepts women as bishops full stop, without this
:27:32. > :27:36.ridiculous setting where we created another set of bishops. You have
:27:36. > :27:40.called that apartheid? I can only think of it in those terms. When
:27:40. > :27:46.they wanted to abolish apartheid, there were those who said, yes, I
:27:46. > :27:50.am in favour, but let me just to save this one bus so it can only be
:27:50. > :27:56.whites. We mustn't have that, we have grown up and moved on. Why do
:27:56. > :28:00.you think that over 2000 years, we suddenly have to change the 21st
:28:00. > :28:05.century? It is absolute rubbish. much has changed. You would not be
:28:05. > :28:09.a magistrate 2000 years ago. You would be your father's and then
:28:09. > :28:15.your husband's property. We I in a different world, we must recognise
:28:15. > :28:19.that. The General Synod, this has been debated for decades. What we
:28:19. > :28:24.said repeatedly, and we have been saying it for a number of years, is
:28:25. > :28:29.that we do want women to share as bishops, along with men. Not
:28:29. > :28:34.supplanting them. But men and women together. I go back to the Bible,
:28:34. > :28:39.Alison. I read the same Bible. You know what I find? Radical quality
:28:39. > :28:44.in Jesus Christ, who never, ever, treated people differently or
:28:44. > :28:51.preached a different gospel to women or men. Right now we are a
:28:51. > :28:58.church that wants to have women as You are a parish worker and you
:28:58. > :29:04.very much agree with Alison. Yes. Going back to the verse you quoted,
:29:04. > :29:09.which says women should not teach and have authority, both positively,
:29:10. > :29:16.goes BECTU creation, which the Lord Jesus also goes back to when he
:29:16. > :29:26.talks about marriage, so he is affirming that all day in creation.
:29:26. > :29:27.
:29:27. > :29:32.Which one? Genesis 1 and 2. Adam was created first... They are made
:29:32. > :29:38.in the image of God. This is important to understand. First of
:29:38. > :29:43.all that we are equal and made in God's image, male and female. We
:29:43. > :29:50.are absolutely equal. We start equal, we finished equal. But some
:29:50. > :29:58.are more equal than others? Why not bishops? We are also equal in that
:29:58. > :30:08.we are responsible to God for our lives, we are equally so given by
:30:08. > :30:11.
:30:11. > :30:17.Jesus and so -- the quick forgiven by Jesus. We are not equal by what
:30:17. > :30:21.we do. That is illogical. Your argument is illogical. If you can
:30:21. > :30:27.think of the number of women who have taught Sunday school, kept the
:30:27. > :30:34.faith alive, kept the faith alive! Have they not taught boys? Is that
:30:34. > :30:40.irrelevant? There is a problem in understanding what women can do.
:30:40. > :30:47.There is a wide variety of work for women in the judge. Servitude, is
:30:47. > :30:55.that a word that you cherish? The Lord Jesus says, I have not
:30:55. > :31:00.come to be served but to serve, and gives! Annabel Heywood is saying
:31:00. > :31:05.that you cannot call people and give people gifts according to
:31:05. > :31:09.their heart, then natural skills, their characteristics, it is
:31:09. > :31:14.basically if you are a man, you can be called to leadership but if you
:31:14. > :31:20.are a woman, you must not be called to leadership. It is about
:31:21. > :31:26.authority, authority of women in the Church over men. It is about
:31:26. > :31:33.insecurity and not authority. APPLAUSE. Now we will talk about
:31:33. > :31:38.Islam. Good morning. This highlights why you should not based
:31:38. > :31:42.your morals on one book written 2000 years ago by tribesmen. If you
:31:42. > :31:46.based models on the Old Testament, you would still be stoning the
:31:46. > :31:50.victims of rape, you would still be selling your daughter and putting
:31:50. > :31:55.animals before humans and men before women. Thankfully most of us
:31:55. > :32:01.have evolved. Religion has some excellent points on the basis of
:32:01. > :32:05.moral guidance which is useful to everybody. But morality is
:32:05. > :32:10.progressive, society is progressive, and if you are going to stick to
:32:10. > :32:14.this one tradition that you are taking from the Old Testament, like
:32:14. > :32:19.this man behind me just said, it is pointless. We have to understand
:32:19. > :32:24.that society has moved on. The Queen, head of state and head this
:32:24. > :32:29.Church of England. How can she be in that position and women not hold
:32:29. > :32:38.authority in a localised setting in the Czech? We are seeing a really
:32:38. > :32:41.good debate. -- in the church. admire the work of this campaign.
:32:41. > :32:47.Although this is a private matter to be determined democratically by
:32:47. > :32:50.the Church of England, it does affect everyone in the country.
:32:50. > :32:55.This country is constitutionally associated with the Church that is
:32:55. > :32:59.sexist, to put it mildly, some might say misogynist, and
:32:59. > :33:04.discriminates against gay people. So we do have an interest in this
:33:04. > :33:09.country in hoping that we make yourselves a private organisation,
:33:10. > :33:13.and good luck to you, but if you do say it -- stay associated with us
:33:13. > :33:20.constitutionally that you do not carry on antediluvian,
:33:20. > :33:25.discriminatory attitudes. That is your opinion. It is. There is only
:33:25. > :33:31.one example we could find of a woman leading mixed prayers in a
:33:31. > :33:38.mosque, and that was a situation that you organised because you see
:33:38. > :33:44.yourself at the forefront of modernisation in Islam, Dr Taj
:33:44. > :33:49.Hargey. It is great to have you on the show again. There were protests.
:33:49. > :33:52.His Islam sexist? No, I think Muslims are sexist and that is a
:33:52. > :33:58.distinction. You need to distinguish between Islam, the
:33:58. > :34:04.faith, and Muslims of the third and culture. Most cultures, including
:34:04. > :34:10.my Christian friends, are misogynistic, chauvinistic and
:34:10. > :34:15.patriotic, as society was 2000 years ago. A lot of Muslim
:34:15. > :34:20.societies are still misogynistic and sexist. But in the Koran, women
:34:20. > :34:30.were not created as an afterthought. It was a simultaneous creation, men
:34:30. > :34:30.
:34:30. > :34:38.and women, same time, bang-bang. The Big Bang Bang! In the Koran, it
:34:38. > :34:45.is the word of God? We believe it is. There is this it would trouble
:34:45. > :34:51.some people. I am called to witness, two witnesses, and it two men at
:34:51. > :34:55.the not found men a man and two women -- and if two men. So that
:34:55. > :35:01.the second of the two making mistakes may remind the other. That
:35:01. > :35:11.is incredibly patronising! What is the prevailing situation in
:35:11. > :35:12.
:35:12. > :35:18.seventh-century Arabia? Hang on...! The reality is... That was tribal,
:35:18. > :35:24.primitive, patriarchal society and women were on the margins. Religion
:35:24. > :35:29.has to deal with both the reality of the time and also things for the
:35:29. > :35:33.future. I look at Islam not in terms of patriarchy but in terms of
:35:33. > :35:37.equality and in terms of fairness and justice so I don't see any
:35:37. > :35:42.reason why a woman who is equally qualified, better educated than I
:35:42. > :35:48.am, should not give a sermon and lead prayers and become a school of
:35:48. > :35:53.the faith. So there were no internal truths. What you have just
:35:53. > :36:00.said his brilliant but it is not so in his long, does it -- is
:36:00. > :36:09.brilliant. Women are second class citizens. A are you accusing Islam
:36:09. > :36:14.of being sexist? Of course I am! The Inquisition, is that to do with
:36:14. > :36:19.Christianity? You will say it is to do with Christians! You can't blame
:36:20. > :36:29.it is long for sexism in Islam. I blame his limbs for that. -- you
:36:29. > :36:33.can't blame Islam for sexism in his long, I blame it Muslims. We have
:36:33. > :36:41.to distinguished tradition and faith. They are not the same.
:36:42. > :36:51.Particularly Islam. You don't want to get on the wrong side of him!
:36:52. > :36:52.
:36:52. > :36:58.am very happy to get on the wrong side of him! He's Sikhism sexist? -
:36:58. > :37:04.- is? No, we believe in equality for all regardless of gender, age,
:37:04. > :37:13.ethnicity, even religion. It is a cultural straitjacket? To a certain
:37:13. > :37:18.extent. INAUDIBLE. Sikh women can lead prayers, however they so wish.
:37:18. > :37:23.There is no priest had system within Sikhism. We believe in true
:37:23. > :37:29.equality. You go to the her Reebok and that is everything for you --
:37:29. > :37:33.you go to the holy book. Having said that, I agree that cultures
:37:33. > :37:39.can be quite misogynistic and sexist and so it is not the
:37:39. > :37:49.religion itself which is sexist, and I agree about Islam, it is not
:37:49. > :37:54.religion itself, it is the People have different
:37:54. > :37:59.interpretations for different fates. It does not mean they will be seen
:37:59. > :38:07.equally in each other's eyes -- different faithss. The do you think
:38:07. > :38:13.the law should be used? No. Not to bolster up... Yes, I do. Anti-
:38:13. > :38:17.discrimination. That is what I meant! That is what we faced in the
:38:18. > :38:22.Church's parliament this week. We had a choice and we chose the right
:38:22. > :38:27.way, we said we want women and men to serve on the same basis. We do
:38:27. > :38:32.not want a second class citizen, those no-go areas for women, and we
:38:32. > :38:36.want to have women as bishops but on the same times, and we do not
:38:36. > :38:40.want to change the structure of the church in order to accommodate
:38:40. > :38:44.women. I would like to say something else about religion. We
:38:44. > :38:50.have heard from his long, Sikhism, we have spoken to people from
:38:50. > :38:55.Judaism -- Islam. All other religions have this aim for
:38:55. > :39:03.equality, they are enlightened overrule, but religions were
:39:03. > :39:08.developed by people, mainly men, and mainly... Everyone has a
:39:08. > :39:13.context and a culture and most cultures have been patriarchal and
:39:13. > :39:18.the world view is to see women as left the beings than men. Alison,
:39:18. > :39:24.we read the same Bible. We are sisters in the body of Christ but I
:39:24. > :39:29.would say to you that when I read the New Testament and I look at the
:39:29. > :39:38.teachings and life and example of Jesus Christ, who we both follow, I
:39:38. > :39:43.see him saying, in me you on a new creation, the old barriers of sex,
:39:43. > :39:53.class, ethnicity, it is gone! And that is good news for everyone!
:39:53. > :39:54.
:39:54. > :40:04.APPLAUSE. I totally agree with all of that. There we are! What I don't
:40:04. > :40:04.
:40:04. > :40:09.agree... It is there a but? And big but! Why wasn't religion included
:40:10. > :40:15.in equality laws? It is a matter for those organisations. I am very
:40:15. > :40:19.secular but I am not arguing that the state should tell religions who
:40:19. > :40:24.they should have in their club, and I don't mean that in a pejorative
:40:24. > :40:29.way. It is a private organisation. But they are the power structure of
:40:29. > :40:35.the state. There are bishops in the House of Lords and the House of
:40:35. > :40:45.Lords is not short of elderly, has sensibly heterosexual, social
:40:45. > :40:47.
:40:47. > :40:52.Conservatives. We know that. -- ostensibly heterosexual. But our
:40:52. > :40:56.legislators... We have this sexism are imposed upon us in our
:40:56. > :41:01.parliament and that is one of the reasons we need to either separate
:41:01. > :41:05.that or urged the Church does sort it out. And we are hoping to reform
:41:05. > :41:09.the House of Lords and also how we appoint bishops or how bishops are
:41:09. > :41:14.in the House of Lords and make it possible for women to become in the
:41:14. > :41:20.House of Lords. What would happen if they finally agree on women
:41:21. > :41:26.bishops, no compromise, the Pope will welcome you with open arms...
:41:26. > :41:31.No, he will not. Simple as that. The Roman Catholic Church are
:41:31. > :41:38.totally opposed to women priests even. By it if you leave the church
:41:38. > :41:41.he will welcome you. I will not go to the Roman Catholic Church! I
:41:41. > :41:49.misunderstood. I will go to a church where there is proper
:41:49. > :41:54.provision... With a man about you? A indeed. I could not be under the
:41:54. > :42:04.authority of a woman bishop and I am sorry. Thank you for your
:42:04. > :42:04.
:42:04. > :42:14.honesty this morning. A round of applause is due for... Or something.
:42:14. > :42:16.
:42:16. > :42:21.If you have any views about that Send us your views about our last
:42:21. > :42:27.big question. His Christianity been marginalised? If you would like to
:42:27. > :42:31.be in the audience, you can e-mail us. -- is Christianity being
:42:31. > :42:37.marginalised. We are in Cambridge next week, Cardiff after that and
:42:37. > :42:41.in York after that. Friday's judgment against the
:42:41. > :42:44.holding of prayers at Bideford Council provoked the former
:42:44. > :42:47.Archbishop of Canterbury to say Christians are being pushed into
:42:47. > :42:52.the background by a secular establishment that seems to be
:42:52. > :43:01.embarrassed by the fact that Britain is a Christian country. His
:43:01. > :43:07.Christianity being marginalised? -- is? This is after the couple that
:43:07. > :43:11.on the bed and breakfast. Why does an atheist at a council have the
:43:11. > :43:16.right to object to prayers but an elderly Christian couple do not
:43:16. > :43:21.have the right to object to taking two gay men? They do have a right
:43:21. > :43:26.to object to are two gay men. Secularism is about ending
:43:26. > :43:31.religious privilege. It is not about whether she be religious. It
:43:31. > :43:35.is about not allow many people in the commercial world and public
:43:35. > :43:41.service to discriminate, either on the grounds of religion or against
:43:41. > :43:45.people on the grounds of sexual orientation and gender. The Dutch
:43:45. > :43:50.Reformed Church used religious rights to say there was a religious
:43:50. > :43:54.basis for racial discrimination. If people who are councillors are
:43:54. > :44:00.religious and want to break, pray before the meeting, pray at home,
:44:00. > :44:06.pray after the meeting. But do not subject councillors to a meeting
:44:06. > :44:10.where, as part of the formal agenda, they have prayers. Or have a
:44:10. > :44:15.religious service. All these things are out with the purposes of
:44:15. > :44:18.spending taxpayers' money on council business. You can't just
:44:18. > :44:24.say it is tradition because there is lots of things that were
:44:24. > :44:27.traditional that we have said on not appropriate. I agree. The
:44:27. > :44:30.question is not whether this is a Christian country, it is whether
:44:30. > :44:40.the institutions of governors should be tied to a particular
:44:40. > :44:44.Why not have a secular state? you feel that Christians are being
:44:44. > :44:49.marginalised? I do, I want to underline that we are a Christian
:44:49. > :44:54.country, not a secular country. What does that mean? Away a white
:44:54. > :44:57.country because they rob All Whites? No, the very foundation of
:44:57. > :45:02.who we were in Britain was formed on Christianity. I don't think that
:45:02. > :45:07.is right at all. Is that historical? It's very disrespectful
:45:07. > :45:13.for ancient Britons. The impact on blast 2000 years, it impacts on our
:45:13. > :45:17.views, the laws, he what we are. Can I just say, that is because we
:45:17. > :45:20.were a theocracy. You couldn't get into Parliament for hundreds of
:45:20. > :45:23.years unless you were religious. It's not a surprise that the people
:45:23. > :45:26.that made the laws were religious and they were based on the laws of
:45:26. > :45:29.religion at the time. It's not an argument for saying if we are
:45:30. > :45:33.starting from here that there should be a theocracy. We are not
:45:33. > :45:38.starting from here. This is where we are now. We cannot just throw it
:45:38. > :45:42.away because there are few people who decide we are atheist or
:45:42. > :45:46.agnostic or we do not believe. in the last debate you were
:45:46. > :45:53.vigorously defending... You were attacking discrimination against
:45:53. > :45:57.women. What about this bed-and- breakfast trouble, what about
:45:57. > :46:03.discrimination about how Mr Trotter? I don't believe we should
:46:03. > :46:08.be discriminating against homosexuals. You believe with the
:46:08. > :46:14.court doesn't -- judgment, that they are entitled to their beliefs
:46:14. > :46:18.but if they are running a commercial service they can't have
:46:19. > :46:22.a sign saying, no gays, like you can't have a sign saying no Jews or
:46:22. > :46:26.no blacks? There wasn't a sign, they were just turn down. It would
:46:26. > :46:31.be more helpful to have a sign rather than having people going all
:46:31. > :46:39.the way to Cornwall to be turned away by the in Tibet. There is a
:46:39. > :46:43.level of intolerance growing in Those who are Christians should not
:46:43. > :46:48.be afraid of being Christians. me give you weigh plug. You have
:46:48. > :46:51.written a book religion for atheists. Some say it is a
:46:51. > :46:57.contradiction in terms, others say it is fascinating. Are Christians
:46:57. > :47:03.on the back foot? No group has a monopoly on good nets, scepticism,
:47:03. > :47:05.tolerance etc. There is a branch of atheism, led not far from here in
:47:05. > :47:10.North Oxford by somebody that asserts their views with such
:47:11. > :47:15.vehemence and has an army of followers who target anyone...
:47:15. > :47:21.Professor Dawkins? I have been personally attacked on the basis of
:47:21. > :47:24.saying that religion is not all bunker. If, as an atheist, you say
:47:24. > :47:29.that I am an atheist but religions have not got everything wrong, you
:47:29. > :47:37.are in the firing line. You cannot have a system where the right is
:47:37. > :47:42.only in the camp of one body. Tolerance and goodness exists in
:47:42. > :47:46.different places. To say, I am an atheist and I am good...
:47:46. > :47:54.Professor Dawkins gets a lot of vile repute -- abuse from people of
:47:54. > :47:58.religions. Sure. They take him out of context, they do quote mining,
:47:58. > :48:02.put him on YouTube saying things that he is not really saying. You
:48:02. > :48:05.can understand why he is a bit annoyed? There is a fractious
:48:05. > :48:08.atmosphere where religious people feel sorry for those that do not
:48:08. > :48:14.believe. Those that do not believe patronise and feel sorry for those
:48:14. > :48:16.that do believe. For those of us with faith, those who believe,
:48:16. > :48:21.irrespective of religious background, it is something quite
:48:21. > :48:25.real. It is not a coat that we put on depending on the weather. It is
:48:25. > :48:31.who we are. To ask us not to want to pray as a majority of that body
:48:31. > :48:37.in that particular place, I believe they voted twice... All out if they
:48:37. > :48:41.voted to sacrifice a goat? Nobody is saying you cannot have your
:48:41. > :48:49.beliefs and you cannot pray at home or when you get to the meeting.
:48:49. > :48:53.Just don't have it as a formal part. It is a while since they sacrificed
:48:53. > :48:59.a goat in Bideford. They have prayed, to be fair, they have done
:48:59. > :49:04.this for centuries and they voted to keep it. That is democracy.
:49:04. > :49:08.centuries they burned people at the stake. I'm not making that
:49:08. > :49:12.comparison, of course. The principle is that the state should
:49:12. > :49:14.not favour one religion. We do not have blasphemy any more, opposed by
:49:14. > :49:24.many in the Church of England saying that we should keep
:49:24. > :49:26.
:49:26. > :49:30.blasphemy laws. Over here, the church is established. We have a
:49:30. > :49:35.constitution that recognises Christianity in a unique way. When
:49:35. > :49:38.I talk to my Muslim and Jewish friends, they are grateful for the
:49:38. > :49:43.umbrella of faith that we have in this country because we are a
:49:43. > :49:49.country that takes faith seriously. And doesn't take none faith
:49:49. > :49:57.seriously? You can't have it both ways. I think we respect atheists
:49:57. > :50:00.and agnostics that engage. That is patronising. I'm not being
:50:00. > :50:08.patronising a tall full stops the church is established, therefore it
:50:08. > :50:16.should have privilege? God does not It does have a privilege. It has
:50:16. > :50:23.huge privileges. But the way will - - it works, the Church works with
:50:23. > :50:29.the underprivileged. Do you think that Christianity is marginalised?
:50:29. > :50:39.In this instance, yes. The new atheists, the aggressive ones, not
:50:39. > :50:40.
:50:40. > :50:44.Alan... He is a nice atheist, is he? Suicide atheist! Very militant.
:50:44. > :50:47.They are trying to marginalise Christianity. I don't feel
:50:47. > :50:50.particularly marginalised when I speak to some of my Muslim and
:50:50. > :51:00.Jewish friends and they tell me, let me tell you about being
:51:00. > :51:02.
:51:02. > :51:08.Are you an aggressive or nice a c'est? Nice. What has been
:51:08. > :51:12.marginalised his sexism, homophobia, backwards myths and cults and
:51:12. > :51:15.superstitions and it is right that they are marginalised. There is no
:51:15. > :51:21.doubt that Christianity has taken a back seat in the country.
:51:21. > :51:26.Unfortunately, we live on the edge of militant and aggressive atheism.
:51:26. > :51:31.You are intolerant. Take the bidder for example. Whether they are
:51:31. > :51:34.talking about the price of goats meet all the right to play, it was
:51:35. > :51:43.a democratic decision. They want to have it both ways. Democracy when
:51:43. > :51:51.it pleases them an dictatorship What do you think? We are at risk
:51:51. > :51:56.of nerdy in -- muddying the waters. From what I understand, the
:51:56. > :51:59.judgment was solely in respect to the Local Government Act of 1972.
:51:59. > :52:03.It was that it didn't fit in with the legislation and that is why it
:52:03. > :52:07.should not be on the agenda. Personally, I feel that if people
:52:07. > :52:10.want to pray, I agree with what was being said, it is something that
:52:10. > :52:14.should be a personal thing. You did not necessarily need to bring it
:52:14. > :52:19.into the public forum in that manner, in meetings. Personal faith
:52:19. > :52:23.is nothing if you keep it private. It has to have consequences in your
:52:23. > :52:27.behaviour. It is a ticket but behind closed doors, you are
:52:27. > :52:33.telling Christians to say, you can pray at home, but don't you dare
:52:33. > :52:37.pray in public. I'm saying that religion is a personal thing.
:52:37. > :52:41.it has to have public consequences. Of course. But that has
:52:41. > :52:45.consequences through, say, let's say they did that Council. Let's
:52:45. > :52:50.say they have lots of inter-faith work that takes place. That is a
:52:50. > :52:55.more proactive way of continuing to ensure that religion plays an
:52:55. > :52:59.important part in modern life. To say, let's pray before the meeting,
:52:59. > :53:05.and not saying anything bad about prayer, I am saying it is not
:53:05. > :53:10.making it relevant to constituents. Shouldn't the local councils be
:53:10. > :53:17.praying as much as they can at the moment, with all of the cuts? Karen,
:53:17. > :53:22.you have people attending services, atheist Christians, they follow the
:53:22. > :53:28.teachings of Christ but they do not believe in God? That is an
:53:28. > :53:32.interesting area. There are many shades of opinion and belief. I
:53:32. > :53:37.think that belief and doubt always interplay with each other. I met a
:53:37. > :53:42.lot of people that valued the church for its community and its
:53:42. > :53:46.ethics, and its sense of the aesthetic, duty and transcendence
:53:46. > :53:49.that comes from that, while not being able to subscribe to a
:53:49. > :53:53.traditional notion of a transcendent God. He doesn't mean
:53:53. > :53:57.to say that God is necessarily completely out of the picture as
:53:57. > :54:02.far as they are concerned. You might say they are sceptics, rather
:54:02. > :54:05.than atheists. Some of them say, no, I will stick to its Christian ethic
:54:05. > :54:09.I have discovered in my local church, which my children are
:54:09. > :54:12.involved with, they play instruments in the Church Orchestra,
:54:12. > :54:17.there is great communal benefit, but I do not actually believe in
:54:17. > :54:22.God. When I say that cannot be Christian ethics, they say...
:54:22. > :54:26.follow the teachings of Christ? but without the theology that goes
:54:26. > :54:31.behind it. One argument against that is why would you admire... If
:54:31. > :54:36.you don't believe he was the son of God, why I admire the teachings of
:54:36. > :54:41.a man who said he was the son of God? Well, did he? Did he?
:54:41. > :54:46.Absolutely! Well, he was the son of God or someone that went around
:54:46. > :54:53.saying that he was. And not saying that he is not the Son of God. But
:54:53. > :54:56.I am saying that is not the key issue. You are astonished, Alison?
:54:56. > :55:02.Pardon me for saying, I am gobsmacked. For the simple reason,
:55:02. > :55:06.how can this gentleman wear a clerical collar, who reports to be
:55:06. > :55:12.a Christian minister? That is the glory of England! I cannot
:55:12. > :55:19.understand it, it is extraordinary. I was saying that, in the case of
:55:19. > :55:23.Christian ethics, it is quite easy to find Jesus and immensely
:55:23. > :55:27.admirable person, the life of self- giving, he was not worried about
:55:27. > :55:30.money, he did not get occupied with all of the things we are occupied
:55:30. > :55:36.with today. It is a brilliant example of how to live life. That
:55:36. > :55:40.is what people admire. They want to extend that into their own lives.
:55:40. > :55:46.just want to say that I think this entire debate is a huge over-
:55:46. > :55:49.reaction to what is a minor issue. All Bideford Council have to do is
:55:49. > :55:53.have the prayer session at the start, before the meeting, have a
:55:53. > :55:58.cup of tea and let them on Christian counsellors turn up and
:55:58. > :56:02.then start the meeting. I mean, isn't... There is a long list of
:56:02. > :56:10.claimed marginalisation is. fact we are discussing this on
:56:10. > :56:13.television... They were talking about it is verging on persecution.
:56:13. > :56:16.I need prayers in the House of Commons every day when the House is
:56:16. > :56:22.sitting. They are there for everyone who comes in, those that
:56:23. > :56:31.want to take part or who do not. I pray for of the MPs, whether they
:56:31. > :56:37.have faith or not, that they will leave wisely? Does it work? -- that
:56:37. > :56:41.they will lead wisely. The whole fabric of the place oozes Christian
:56:42. > :56:45.faith. Do you think that is threatened? Not for one moment.
:56:45. > :56:49.They have every right to do this, but there are political Christian
:56:49. > :56:53.organisations who, because we are a democracy, they advocate their
:56:53. > :56:57.position. They found it useful to claim they are persecuted when they
:56:57. > :57:00.are not. It is good for them to recruit people and try to have the
:57:01. > :57:03.freedom that they see it as to discriminate, usually on the
:57:03. > :57:07.grounds of sexual orientation, because that is their particular
:57:07. > :57:12.focus, some would say obsession, to say they are being marginalised.
:57:12. > :57:15.Look at this country. We have bishops, men, sitting in Parliament
:57:15. > :57:20.simply on the basis of their religion, not on the basis of what
:57:20. > :57:26.they do, let alone a elected. On the basis of history, so that you
:57:26. > :57:31.object to when it comes to women in the priesthood. We have schools,
:57:31. > :57:35.where there is an act of compulsory worship for children. When I was at
:57:35. > :57:42.school they used to pray in the morning, we had assembly. Most of
:57:42. > :57:49.us used to just sit like that. Let them get on with it. Many
:57:49. > :57:55.Christians believe that having compulsory act of mass hypocrisy in
:57:55. > :57:59.school... It doesn't happen in every school, unfortunately. Would
:57:59. > :58:03.you like it too? Christian prayers in every school in the country?
:58:03. > :58:07.course, I want all children to grow up hearing about Jesus. When they
:58:07. > :58:11.are older, they can make a decision. Is important to recognise it is not
:58:11. > :58:16.as though the secular world is devoid of messages. There are
:58:16. > :58:21.messages coming out, by Jaffa Cakes, go on holiday here, the villagers
:58:21. > :58:25.are adding one more message. But it's not as if we have an empty
:58:25. > :58:30.space into which religions are sending out their poison. We are