:00:48. > :00:52.Good morning, everyone. Welcome to The Big Questions, from the Perse
:00:52. > :00:56.School. I am Nicky Campbell. Christianity, or the lack of it,
:00:56. > :01:03.has hit the headlines nearly every day this week. At the Vatican,
:01:03. > :01:08.Baroness Bhatti attacked militant secularism. -- Baroness Warsi. On
:01:08. > :01:12.the radio, Richard Dawkins appealed to God. The first big question, is
:01:12. > :01:14.Britain a Christian country? Professor Dawkins says we
:01:14. > :01:18.overestimate the number of Christians in the country and give
:01:18. > :01:21.it too much significance in public life. There is still a huge gap
:01:21. > :01:26.between the number of people who need a life-saving transplant and
:01:26. > :01:29.the number organ donations each year. Three people a day die on the
:01:30. > :01:32.waiting list. The British Medical Association is asking for a debate
:01:32. > :01:37.about previously contentious and even illegal methods of increasing
:01:37. > :01:43.the supply of organs. Our second big question, should it be easier
:01:43. > :01:47.to harvest organs for transplant? Sue Burton's sun's organs saved or
:01:47. > :01:57.improved the lives of at least six people. But she thinks the new
:01:57. > :01:59.
:01:59. > :02:05.proposals are concerning. Welcome, Good morning. Well, back in 2001
:02:05. > :02:09.when the next -- last census was taken, 71% declared ourselves to be
:02:09. > :02:12.Christians. Yet we know that churches are pretty empty on Sunday
:02:12. > :02:16.mornings. A new survey published this week by the Richard Dawkins
:02:16. > :02:21.Foundation found that the majority who call themselves Christian do
:02:21. > :02:29.not actually practise the faith in any meaningful sense. Is Britain a
:02:29. > :02:34.Christian country? Richard, your foundation, it was an Ipsos MORI
:02:34. > :02:39.poll and it polled people that put Christian on the census. What was
:02:39. > :02:44.interesting is, to a greater or lesser extent, whether it be
:02:44. > :02:51.evangelical, all the way through to a vague belief, 78% said that they
:02:51. > :02:55.believed in God. That is quite high, isn't it? The poll that we
:02:55. > :03:00.commissioned was done by Ipsos MORI. As you know, that is a very
:03:01. > :03:05.respectable organisation. It should be attributed to them, rather than
:03:05. > :03:09.to us. The first thing that it showed was that the number of
:03:09. > :03:19.people who call themselves Christian has dropped from 72%, I
:03:19. > :03:23.think it was, in 2001, down to 54%. The margin of error might be plus
:03:23. > :03:25.or minus 2%. That is already a dramatic drop in the number of
:03:25. > :03:30.people that call themselves Christian. What was more
:03:30. > :03:34.interesting, in a way, was that when we look further at what those
:03:34. > :03:38.54%, after wiping out all the people that do not call themselves
:03:38. > :03:43.Christian, we call these the censors Christians, when you look
:03:43. > :03:48.at them, even they are not, in many cases, really Christian in the
:03:48. > :03:51.sense that most of the Christians here would recognise, I suspect. Of
:03:51. > :03:56.course, they are absolutely free to call themselves Christian if they
:03:56. > :04:02.like. Totally free country, you can label yourself anything you like.
:04:02. > :04:06.What worries us is that if you label yourself Christian, the
:04:06. > :04:10.numerical strength that you add to the Christian figure may then be
:04:10. > :04:14.used by a much narrower constituency of Christian who it
:04:14. > :04:18.will then argue, well, the country is such and such percentage
:04:18. > :04:22.Christian, therefore we need bishops in the House of Lords and
:04:22. > :04:28.so on. I want to dispel a misunderstanding. We are not
:04:28. > :04:33.telling Christians, you are not a true Christian, it is up to you if
:04:33. > :04:36.you are a true Christian. But beware of using the ammunition of a
:04:36. > :04:41.percentage number of Christians, even though it has now dropped from
:04:41. > :04:48.72, down to 54, beware of using it as ammunition for pushing through
:04:48. > :04:52.really strong, narrowly defined Christian values when the number, a
:04:52. > :05:02.large majority of people who take themselves as Christian, actually
:05:02. > :05:02.
:05:02. > :05:09.do not support those Christian But if they say they are Christian
:05:09. > :05:15.in some sense, whether it is a broad church... It in a very broad
:05:15. > :05:20.church, that is the point. Whether they are evangelical or vague
:05:20. > :05:25.Christians, isn't that what we have? A gentle Christianity. It is
:05:25. > :05:30.not a theocracy. That is the precise point that we are trying to
:05:30. > :05:34.make. If you boldly ask people of the censors, are you Kristin? You
:05:34. > :05:39.embrace this broad church of people who say, well, I feel I have a good
:05:39. > :05:44.person, I'd better tick the box. That is insulting to Muslims and
:05:44. > :05:50.Jews, as a start. How is it effective policy innate detrimental
:05:50. > :05:55.way? Time and again, politicians, after the last census, had
:05:55. > :06:01.justified Christian inspired policies like reserved seats for
:06:01. > :06:04.bishops in the House of Lords. They say, well, the 2001 census shows
:06:04. > :06:08.that 72% of the country is Christian. We must respect them. Of
:06:08. > :06:13.course, we must respect their right to call themselves Christian. Why
:06:13. > :06:17.not ask them if they support bishops in the House of Lords? And
:06:17. > :06:25.they don't. All the Resurrection, etc. There have been strong words
:06:25. > :06:30.during this debate. Very strong words. Baroness Warsi, referring to
:06:30. > :06:34.the militant secularists, saying they are deeply intolerant. Using
:06:34. > :06:40.words like Stalinist and totalitarian. You called Richard
:06:40. > :06:44.the Ayatollah of atheism. I'm not sure if you are aware of that. Why
:06:44. > :06:49.is the slightest challenge, not even a challenge, but a question...
:06:49. > :06:54.Research, indeed. Seen as militant? At the did you write. I will let
:06:54. > :06:59.Baroness Warsi fight in the way that she does. -- absolutely right.
:06:59. > :07:03.What I said in the book was in reaction to eight specific moment.
:07:03. > :07:07.I have seen Professor Dawkins behave in a way that seems to me to
:07:07. > :07:11.be very similar to the way that I have seen religious fundamentalists
:07:11. > :07:16.perform in meetings and in the way they conduct themselves in public.
:07:16. > :07:20.You know, maybe that was over the top in the book. The point is, I'm
:07:20. > :07:24.sorry, Professor, I think you are a brilliant scientist but I did you
:07:24. > :07:30.let yourself down by behaving like a fundamentalist. When was the last
:07:30. > :07:35.time I threw a bomb? He asked, when was the last time he threw a bomb,
:07:35. > :07:38.rather than an intellectual bomb? Can we talk about the survey? Your
:07:38. > :07:42.introduction said that these people did not practise Christianity in a
:07:42. > :07:46.meaningful way. It is meaningful enough for them to put down on a
:07:46. > :07:50.form that they were Christian. In the basis of a poll that I think is
:07:50. > :07:56.1000 people, Professor Dawkins is dismissing as largely irrelevant,
:07:56. > :08:02.and that is the word he used, the belief system, by his statistics,
:08:02. > :08:06.of more than half the population. What the poll shows is that we are
:08:06. > :08:09.still a nation, whether or not we are post-Christian or post
:08:09. > :08:13.imperialist, whether we off the growing of the kind of Christianity
:08:13. > :08:16.that dictated us for 500 years and finding a new way forward in a
:08:16. > :08:21.multi pate world, we are still a country that very firmly and
:08:21. > :08:27.emphatically has some kind of engagement and fascination with God
:08:27. > :08:32.and spirituality. Wasn't that exactly what I said? You feel an
:08:32. > :08:37.engagement with Christianity, so you tick the Christian box.
:08:37. > :08:41.Absolutely fine. I feel a good person, I will tick the box. When
:08:41. > :08:47.it went on to say, when you are faced with a moral dilemma, do you
:08:47. > :08:51.turn to your religion for moral guidance, only 10% said yes. The
:08:51. > :08:56.whole point is that the people that ticked the box are entirely welcome
:08:56. > :09:01.to do that. Of course they are, I am not denying them that right. But
:09:01. > :09:04.don't use those figures to justify much narrower Christian policies
:09:04. > :09:13.when you come to make government decisions. That is all but we are
:09:13. > :09:21.saying. I want you to address this tag of militancy. A backlash
:09:21. > :09:24.towards you, Cole has nothing to do with it, but the Telegraph had done
:09:24. > :09:29.a who do you think you are, and they found out that one of your
:09:29. > :09:34.great ancestors was a slave owner. You would be amazed at what has
:09:34. > :09:39.been going on this week. One after another, this one in the Telegraph
:09:39. > :09:44.is just the latest, I really feel we are rattling their cages. When a
:09:44. > :09:48.Telegraph reporter feels the need to retaliate by going back 300
:09:48. > :09:54.years till an ancestor of mine, I think he was my great, great, great,
:09:54. > :09:57.great grandfather, who owned slaves in Jamaica, how desperate can you
:09:57. > :10:03.get? If, instead of listening to the argument, you say, his great,
:10:03. > :10:06.great, great, great grandfather owned slaves. The best of my
:10:06. > :10:10.knowledge it is not a smear tactic, it is a story that somebody found
:10:10. > :10:13.out and printed it in the paper. I'm not involved in that story. To
:10:13. > :10:16.the best of my knowledge there was no sense of smeared tactical
:10:16. > :10:22.retaliation. I have to admit, working for the Telegraph, as I
:10:22. > :10:28.do... Telegraph on trial! We were rather amused by the fact that
:10:28. > :10:32.Professor Dawkins has often talked about how religion enslaves
:10:32. > :10:36.humanity. And it was interesting to see that he comes from a family
:10:36. > :10:41.that used to enslave people. That was what prompted the article,
:10:41. > :10:45.then? No, I don't think that is what prompted it. It was amusing.
:10:45. > :10:50.We are all more related to each other in this room than he is to
:10:50. > :10:55.the ancestor. This is a political debate, as well as religious.
:10:55. > :10:59.Richard has made that point very powerfully. These figures are being
:10:59. > :11:05.used in a political wave of the Op is this a Christian country? I'll
:11:06. > :11:09.make the point of the Slade issue. People speak out in defence of the
:11:09. > :11:12.Christian country by saying we abolished the slave trade. What of
:11:12. > :11:16.the agencies of the Church of England was branding slaves and
:11:16. > :11:20.bishops were supporting the commercial trade. We have a
:11:20. > :11:24.situation when neither side and the debate is being realistic about the
:11:24. > :11:28.history, accepting the mistakes of the past, recognising that religion
:11:28. > :11:32.had a good part to play but also a terrible part. So did secularism.
:11:32. > :11:36.Is this a Christian country? This country has never been a Christian
:11:36. > :11:41.country. I don't think it is now. Let's take our definition,
:11:41. > :11:44.controversially, as the values of Jesus Christ. Are you really
:11:44. > :11:48.endorsing the values of Jesus Christ? Really. What would it look
:11:48. > :11:52.like if it did? We might forgive our enemies a little bit more. We
:11:52. > :12:01.might have a more equal society. We might not encourage a capitalist
:12:01. > :12:04.system that makes people compete Cristina Odone? I think it is a
:12:04. > :12:08.Christian country and should stay a Christian country. What do you mean
:12:08. > :12:14.by that? I mean that everything from the language we use every day
:12:14. > :12:21.comes from the Bible. The church we walk past on our street is part of
:12:21. > :12:26.the Christian culture. Charity, all kinds of institutions from
:12:26. > :12:30.hospitals to orphanages, to schools, they were founded by churches. Our
:12:30. > :12:35.culture is definitely a Christian culture. That religious, but not
:12:35. > :12:41.necessarily Christian. Let's take the rich man in his castle, the
:12:41. > :12:45.poor man at his gate, the Lord God made them, each to his estate. It
:12:45. > :12:49.was an endorsement of medieval feudalism, keeping end --
:12:50. > :12:53.inequality. That's not Christian, that is religious. It was written
:12:53. > :12:57.by a Victorian lady, an expression of her values. What religious
:12:57. > :13:02.barriers, but not Christian. We need to make a distinction, the two
:13:02. > :13:08.are not the same. I think, as I said, we have a culture that is
:13:08. > :13:13.Christian. What completely confounded Richard Dawkins was that
:13:13. > :13:17.he thought we were textbook Christians. That we knew which was
:13:17. > :13:21.the first book in the Bible, that we knew the first five books of the
:13:21. > :13:24.Old Testament. That's not the kind of Christians we are. We are
:13:24. > :13:28.everyday Christians. It informs our every life. It means we do believe
:13:29. > :13:33.in charity, we do believe in helping others. We do believe in
:13:33. > :13:40.turning the other cheek. Much, much more than if we were a totally
:13:40. > :13:47.secular culture. I didn't think anything. I asked Ipsos MORI to
:13:47. > :13:52.find out, research. Research is not preconception. That is not what the
:13:52. > :13:56.research shows at all. It doesn't show that people live their lives
:13:56. > :14:00.as if Christianity is cultural wallpaper. Although they say they
:14:00. > :14:04.are Christian as a cultural box, the most common reason being that
:14:04. > :14:14.their parents were religious, actually, Christianity forms very
:14:14. > :14:20.little of the common sense of their lives. Most people, for example...
:14:20. > :14:22.Can I put a David Cameron quote to you? He recently said, and he
:14:23. > :14:26.described this as just that, a Christian country, he said, the
:14:26. > :14:30.Bible has given Britain a sense of values that has made Britain what
:14:30. > :14:33.it is today. What do you think of that statement? I think
:14:33. > :14:37.Christianity has contributed to the formation of culture in this
:14:37. > :14:41.country. But it is not the only factor. It depends when you start
:14:41. > :14:44.the story. Of course if you start the story that when this country
:14:44. > :14:50.became Christian, if you started it earlier, you are with the Romans
:14:50. > :14:54.and Cripps. Before that, it is the secular enlightenment. -- Greeks.
:14:54. > :14:58.Lot of influences have shaped us. But the more interesting factor is,
:14:58. > :15:02.actually, why politicians are suddenly seeming to be breaking out
:15:02. > :15:12.all over saying we are a Christian country. I think that is the real
:15:12. > :15:15.question. It is so self evidently Let's bring the historical
:15:16. > :15:19.perspective in. We are at the end of a period of something like 500
:15:19. > :15:24.years in which a kind of Christianity, a British state
:15:24. > :15:30.Christianity, has informed he we are, laws, language, literature,
:15:30. > :15:33.culture, superstitions. That period, because of the way church, state
:15:33. > :15:38.and crown are pulling apart, and because of the way our population
:15:38. > :15:43.is changing, is coming to an end. People asking, what does it mean?
:15:43. > :15:48.Do we throw it away? Is there something we can keep? It is a mere
:15:48. > :15:52.speck in the span of time. At the moment, we are asking, is this
:15:52. > :15:55.country we are living in informed by Christianity? The Archbishop of
:15:55. > :16:00.Canterbury said we were haunted by Christianity, which is a good way
:16:00. > :16:05.of putting it. The question is where we go from here? Once it has
:16:05. > :16:10.lost its grip on the hearts and minds of people in the country...
:16:10. > :16:15.It has lost constitutional grip. has totally lost its grip. Most
:16:15. > :16:19.people... A according to your survey, 54% of the country care
:16:19. > :16:23.enough to say, I am a Christian? But it turns out they do not
:16:23. > :16:29.believe it. It is neither my plays the will to confront what they
:16:29. > :16:33.believe. Yes, it is! York Hall set out to prove there are fewer
:16:34. > :16:40.Christians than you thought... -- you're poor. It did not. Of course
:16:40. > :16:45.you did! When you ask them what they believe, it does not have a
:16:45. > :16:49.very large part, hardly any part at all, in many cases, in their
:16:49. > :16:57.feelings. I am happy to live in a country where Christianity is
:16:57. > :17:03.ambiguous and generous. So am I. is he! I am panicking, we have had
:17:03. > :17:07.an outbreak of consensus. We cannot be having any of that! We have got
:17:07. > :17:12.to move beyond polarisation and say, what do we want to hang on to, and
:17:12. > :17:16.what do we want to make new? That is an important question. This is a
:17:16. > :17:20.Christian country? My personal belief is that this country is
:17:20. > :17:23.built on Christian values, and I think it is a very beautiful aspect
:17:24. > :17:28.of this country. I am a Muslim myself, and that is something I
:17:28. > :17:31.value about this country. I cannot think people are necessarily
:17:31. > :17:38.Christian in terms of the technical details of that faith. I think they
:17:38. > :17:42.have a general awareness of belief in God. And over here. Good morning.
:17:42. > :17:46.Good morning. I think both sides are talking about Christianity in
:17:46. > :17:50.an incredibly practical way, and I do not think we are addressing the
:17:50. > :17:55.fact that we have a very moral country. Especially the politicians
:17:55. > :17:59.at the minute, the Tories are using this, the riots and things like
:17:59. > :18:06.that, using it as moral guidance that they want us to follow.
:18:06. > :18:10.Although I do not like the Tories! But I do think that our country is
:18:10. > :18:13.not Christian in a practical way. The Queen is our head of state,
:18:13. > :18:17.head of the Church of England, but realistically the government leads
:18:17. > :18:23.us. We do not attend church, but people still hold those values.
:18:23. > :18:26.Then again, most religions offer those values. It is very much
:18:26. > :18:30.geographical, actually. I think that the Far East is incredibly
:18:30. > :18:35.moral, and whether that is because of Islam or whatever other religion,
:18:35. > :18:41.it is not as practical as we are talking. Interesting questions,
:18:41. > :18:48.thank you for that. The whole idea of this slightly vague armour some
:18:48. > :18:57.would say wishy-washy, others would say it comfortable and gentle,
:18:57. > :19:02.tolerant, and if you look to France, which is validly secular and
:19:02. > :19:06.arguably, as a result perhaps of that even, has some pretty
:19:06. > :19:13.illiberal laws, you know the banning of the burka. Completely
:19:13. > :19:18.intolerant. Would that not be a danger? Well, I think you cannot
:19:18. > :19:23.over-egg the extent to which it has a link to tolerance, and it was a
:19:23. > :19:26.very hard right and burnt itself out with persecution over the
:19:26. > :19:29.centuries and eventually arrived at this sort of tolerance settlement.
:19:29. > :19:35.But I think there are many other factors in this country that have
:19:35. > :19:39.led to tolerant feelings, a long centuries without any particular
:19:39. > :19:43.civil war or internal conflict, relative prosperity, economic
:19:43. > :19:49.factors. We have had civil war in these islands in the last 30 years.
:19:49. > :19:53.That is true, archaic, let's say England and Wales! But your
:19:53. > :19:57.question was about the Anglican Church. Christianity in these
:19:57. > :20:01.islands. There are many Christians in France, so that cannot be the
:20:01. > :20:05.deciding factor, and the French state indeed funds various Catholic
:20:05. > :20:10.groups even despite of secularism. My argument would be, yes, this is
:20:10. > :20:13.a very tolerant country, and that is to be welcomed, but I think the
:20:14. > :20:16.sort of things the establishment of the Church of England and the
:20:16. > :20:23.artificially inflated Christian figure preserves are far from
:20:23. > :20:26.tolerant. At 72% figure has been used to justify not just existing
:20:26. > :20:29.state funded faith schools that discriminate but an expansion of
:20:29. > :20:32.them, and it is at the hard edge of political debate that that figure
:20:32. > :20:38.is used to inflict damage on other people, and that is why the survey
:20:38. > :20:44.is important, because it shows people in that 72%... They are very
:20:44. > :20:50.popular, a lot of people want to send their children to them.
:20:50. > :20:53.would not ban the burka, that is illiberal. Some of the specific
:20:53. > :20:59.questions on theology are interesting as well. I'll come to
:20:59. > :21:03.in a moment, but Rowan Williams recently said that you do not have
:21:03. > :21:08.to believe in the virgin birth to be a Christian. You believe in it?
:21:08. > :21:14.Do I believe in it? Yes. Well, literally, not necessarily. What
:21:14. > :21:21.does that mean, literally? New line identify me as a Christian. Today
:21:21. > :21:27.Virgin give birth to a thousand years ago? I don't know. Does it
:21:28. > :21:31.matter? Does it matter to me personally? No, it does not. I
:21:31. > :21:35.think we are making an interesting move on the basis of what Andrew
:21:35. > :21:39.and Richard were just saying. This week we have had a comment from the
:21:39. > :21:45.Queen, who has made a shift and I started to talk about the Church of
:21:45. > :21:49.England acting as a kind of broker, using its influence on the stage.
:21:49. > :21:53.Those things that are left of its influence in official circles, to
:21:53. > :21:57.become a broker for people of all faiths. Now, actually, I think that
:21:57. > :22:01.is a positive way forward, may be the only way forward the Church of
:22:01. > :22:05.England has got left. Do you believe in the Virgin Birth? I do,
:22:05. > :22:13.and I believe in miracles. Do you have to believe that to be a
:22:13. > :22:19.Christian? No, and the whole thing is, what is so interesting, what
:22:19. > :22:24.Richard and his fellow secularists want is for science to be the only
:22:24. > :22:30.guiding force. A lot of religious people are secularists. And for
:22:30. > :22:34.rationality and reason to be our God. But actually, what
:22:34. > :22:39.spirituality is is a whole other dimension that we enter into and
:22:39. > :22:46.you do not. I do not care what you believe and what you save.
:22:47. > :22:50.greatly! You keep trying to play another game, a numbers game, and
:22:50. > :22:55.7,000 members of the National Secular Society is just about as
:22:55. > :23:01.many... Are please don't start this! The national British sausage
:23:01. > :23:05.Association. We all know this is political. Let's not let the
:23:05. > :23:09.secularists drive policy on that basis. Remind Richard what he was
:23:09. > :23:16.going to say! I was just interrupted, I cannot remember.
:23:16. > :23:19.What was the point when you were making? Oh, yes, I do not care what
:23:19. > :23:22.you believe, so long as what you believe is not used to legislate in
:23:22. > :23:32.this country and affect what the rest of us believe.
:23:32. > :23:40.Why do we have 26 places in parliament reserved for bishops of
:23:40. > :23:44.the Church of England? Could I finish? Let him finish. Why not
:23:44. > :23:49.have 26 places reserved for white men? If you did that, there would
:23:49. > :23:53.be righteous outrage. Why do we have 26 places reserved for bishops
:23:53. > :23:58.of the Church of England? What to think about this, I do not know
:23:58. > :24:02.about the virgin birth, is that key to being a Christian? It is up to
:24:02. > :24:09.them... If they want to believe supernatural nonsense, that is up
:24:09. > :24:13.to them, but don't force it on the rest of us. The Majid Katme, to you
:24:13. > :24:20.think this is a Christian country? Now, let me give you a Muslim
:24:20. > :24:26.perspective on what you're asking. I have been working with hundreds
:24:26. > :24:30.of Christian organisations, family, morality, chastity, marriage,
:24:30. > :24:36.heterosexual etcetera. This is my Islamic values the same. We share
:24:36. > :24:42.together the same value, and these values are very few today
:24:42. > :24:52.implemented! What has gone wrong? disagree a lot with Professor
:24:52. > :24:55.Richard Dawkins, but in his point, the Ten Commandments of broken day
:24:55. > :24:59.and night by the majority of Christians. We badly need to go
:24:59. > :25:04.back to Christian values. Islamic values are the same, exactly like
:25:04. > :25:10.you. But at the same time... are talking about licentiousness
:25:10. > :25:16.and depravity? A course. We believe in Virgin Mary, Jesus, the 10 per
:25:16. > :25:20.cannons 4th -- the Ten Commandments. Practically, we should be careful.
:25:20. > :25:28.And not as a Christian country, we are practically a multi-faith
:25:29. > :25:33.country. Two main point I want to make. First of all, faith is a
:25:33. > :25:37.force for good, and it is often portrayed that there is a chance of
:25:37. > :25:41.something inherently extremist about religion, so you half but
:25:41. > :25:45.actively moderate. That is not true. Secondly, when you look at the pole
:25:46. > :25:49.that has been commissioned, it says people are not Christian according
:25:49. > :25:53.to the textbook definition. Over time, People's affiliation has
:25:53. > :25:56.changed. Just because they did not tick the box according to what we
:25:56. > :26:01.might think our traditional religious people, that does not
:26:01. > :26:04.mean they are not religious. They care enough to tick the box, I am a
:26:04. > :26:09.Christian, so because they do not follow the commandments, you are
:26:09. > :26:13.not a Christian, that is like saying, it is a poor example, on
:26:13. > :26:16.Radio 4, Professor Dawkins, you could not pronounce the name of the
:26:16. > :26:22.Book of Charles Dawkins, you're not a good enough atheist. That is
:26:22. > :26:25.wrong. Just because you do not go to church as regularly as it says,
:26:25. > :26:29.therefore you are not a good enough Christian. That is incorrect, you
:26:29. > :26:35.cannot go down that road. People choose their values, that is up to
:26:35. > :26:39.them. Nobody is just saying that, just to clarify. The survey that we
:26:39. > :26:44.did, that Ipsos MORI did for Richard's Foundation, what is being
:26:44. > :26:48.said, after the 2001 senses results were published, there was a high
:26:48. > :26:51.proportion of Christians. Lots of lobby groups, bishops, politicians
:26:51. > :26:57.leapt on the figures with glee and said, look, it proves what we knew
:26:57. > :27:00.all along, Britain is a Christian school, and this testify state
:27:00. > :27:03.schools and contracting out public services to Christian groups. What
:27:03. > :27:08.this research is trying to articulate is that that was a
:27:08. > :27:11.mistaken assumption by those people, because actually that 72% has been
:27:11. > :27:18.hijacked, and what they believe is not what is being claimed that they
:27:18. > :27:21.believe that is something else. That is the important point.
:27:21. > :27:27.given everything that you have said, does that mean that you want the
:27:27. > :27:33.state to take back from the religious institutions any work
:27:33. > :27:41.that they do with youth, schools... No, certainly not. State-funded
:27:41. > :27:46.schools... So what is the point of this? OK, so if there was to be a
:27:46. > :27:52.sudden awakening of atheism, and also secularism, two different
:27:52. > :27:55.things, what would we lose? I think we would lose a great, great deal.
:27:55. > :28:00.In the public space, we do not want just the government to be dealing
:28:00. > :28:06.with the running schools, with running charities, because we want
:28:06. > :28:11.voluntary spirits, and many of them... Faith schools are state-
:28:11. > :28:16.funded, government standard schools. Many of them are not. It is the
:28:16. > :28:21.state funded ones, a third of all of our state-funded schools.
:28:21. > :28:25.are you going to have state-funded charities? Are you going to have
:28:25. > :28:30.state-funded hospitals? Secularism does not affect the thriving civil
:28:30. > :28:33.sphere. We already have charities. It affects what is funded by the
:28:33. > :28:36.state in public life, treating people without privilege or
:28:36. > :28:46.discrimination on the basis of religion. State-funded schools
:28:46. > :28:46.
:28:46. > :28:49.should not be choosing pupils on Good morning, hello. You must give
:28:49. > :28:54.this country is a Christian country. I believe, if you are buying
:28:54. > :28:58.Christmas presents and Easter eggs, it is a Christian country. Yes, it
:28:58. > :29:04.is a Christian country, but when it comes to moral issues, yes, it is
:29:04. > :29:08.not. What I believe is that the professor's research could be used
:29:08. > :29:12.and a positive manner, thinking, yes, we are failing as Christians
:29:12. > :29:15.and we need to upgrade. Now, every time there is a wedding taking
:29:15. > :29:20.place, I think that should be applauded, rather than
:29:20. > :29:23.discriminated against in tax. Family life should be encouraged.
:29:23. > :29:32.Abortions and single parenting should be discouraged. We should
:29:33. > :29:36.help people in marriage, create Is this your view of Christianity?
:29:36. > :29:40.I think it's a different view, but the important thing is that we have
:29:40. > :29:44.a conversation about it. While we have this polarisation, we don't
:29:44. > :29:48.get a sensible conversation. Would it be good to give tax breaks to
:29:48. > :29:52.married couples? I don't think so, I'd like to see tax breaks for
:29:52. > :29:56.civil partnerships, heterosexual and gay people being able to get
:29:56. > :30:00.married. I think that is the tolerant view. You can't have a
:30:01. > :30:05.Christian country, a faith organised country, when you have
:30:06. > :30:09.civil partnerships and you are encouraging X, Y and Z. I'm sorry.
:30:09. > :30:14.What is a Christian Dior of government? What is the Christian
:30:14. > :30:18.view of the state? To me, it is one that allows for parity. A secular
:30:18. > :30:21.one, not one that is value-free, but one that does not impose one
:30:21. > :30:27.particular religious form on the nation. Surely that is the best
:30:27. > :30:33.religious view of all. Absolutely. I think we are in a position where
:30:33. > :30:39.we will have to find a way forward that allows for variety... I can't
:30:39. > :30:42.even say the word, having 1000 jobs -- gods. We have 1000 gods in this
:30:42. > :30:46.country. We need a way forward to allow that to be and to celebrate
:30:46. > :30:51.that. Nobody really believes there should be 26 bishops and the House
:30:51. > :30:54.of Lords these days. Why do we have them? We do have to find their way
:30:54. > :31:04.forward. A way forward that reflect the fact that Britain is still
:31:04. > :31:07.There is a point, I have been debating with a number of people
:31:07. > :31:10.this week who do believe there should be 26 bishops in the House
:31:10. > :31:14.of Lords, that do believe that church schools should be allowed to
:31:14. > :31:19.discriminate in admissions and employment. There are people that
:31:19. > :31:23.need to be called to account as well as secularists. Religion on
:31:23. > :31:26.one side, atheists on the other, by Richard's estimation there are 30
:31:26. > :31:34.million people sitting in the middle scratching their heads,
:31:34. > :31:39.watching this programme and going, what about us? 30 million? I wish!
:31:39. > :31:43.You have said faith is a spent force in the UK. Do you think that
:31:43. > :31:49.friends are very much that religion is slowly crawling into the dustbin
:31:49. > :31:54.of history? I think so. They are showing some signs of desperation.
:31:54. > :31:58.When you think what faith actually is, it is delayed in something --
:31:58. > :32:02.believing something without evidence. How can you justify that?
:32:02. > :32:07.If there is evidence, it is not face any more, it is evidence. It
:32:07. > :32:10.is what people who believe in science believe in. What percentage
:32:10. > :32:14.of the universe do we not know anything about? A very great deal.
:32:14. > :32:20.I don't say, therefore I believe such and such, I say, I am waiting
:32:20. > :32:26.to find out. So do Christians. why do you have faith in things
:32:26. > :32:31.like the Virgin Birth? I don't. glad you don't, many do. I do.
:32:31. > :32:36.know you do! How can you justify believing something of which there
:32:36. > :32:41.is no evidence. I believe in the Resurrection. It offers me a hope
:32:41. > :32:45.of a future. It shapes my ethics. I come to similar conclusions in some
:32:45. > :32:48.areas because of my faith. We disagree on some things because I
:32:48. > :32:53.come from a different route. That is very revealing. You believe
:32:53. > :33:03.something because it gives you hope. My case rests. We are going to
:33:03. > :33:04.
:33:04. > :33:12.leave it there. Thank you all so Now, if he would like to have your
:33:12. > :33:16.say about that the date log on to: -- a debate. We are also debating
:33:16. > :33:21.live from the Perse School in Cambridge. Should it be easier to
:33:21. > :33:28.harvest organs for transplant? If you would like to be in the
:33:29. > :33:33.audience at a future show, you can e-mail: We are in Cardiff next week.
:33:33. > :33:39.On March 4th we are in York to record two shows. We are in
:33:39. > :33:43.Leicester on 18th March. In transplant surgery there is a
:33:43. > :33:48.narrow window between the death of a donor and the removal of their
:33:48. > :33:52.organs to save someone else's life. All too often, even when the dying
:33:52. > :33:58.carry a donor card, the gap is reduced even further because
:33:58. > :34:02.families have to be persuaded to honour their loved one's which is.
:34:02. > :34:06.Doctors asking if donors could be kept on ventilation to preserve
:34:06. > :34:09.their donors -- donor organs for longer, or if hearts to be
:34:09. > :34:14.restarted after death. And whether newborn babies who die could also
:34:14. > :34:23.become donors. All very challenging stuff. Should it be easier to
:34:23. > :34:28.harvest organs for transplants? Professor Gurch Randhawa, this idea
:34:28. > :34:31.of an elective ventilation, putting a dying person on life-support to
:34:31. > :34:36.keep their organs preserved for longer, so that when you are ready
:34:36. > :34:40.for them to die... Is that acceptable? A lot of families would
:34:40. > :34:45.have a huge problem with that. think you have hit the nail on the
:34:45. > :34:48.head. It's about families and individuals. Consent is crucial.
:34:48. > :34:52.What we need to do is to refrain the question. You have asked,
:34:52. > :34:58.should it be easier to harvest organs? The question should be
:34:58. > :35:03.asked, should it be easier for us all to have the opportunity to
:35:03. > :35:07.become and organ donor? I think it is enormously disrespectful to the
:35:07. > :35:11.many thousands of families and individuals who have consented to
:35:11. > :35:17.organ donation. Do you despair when the medical profession used that
:35:17. > :35:21.word? I don't think many people do. I think they find it uncomfortable
:35:21. > :35:24.to use that language. We need to be far more positive about this. If
:35:24. > :35:29.families and individuals have consented, I believe it is our duty
:35:29. > :35:34.to make sure we explore every single option, elective ventilation
:35:34. > :35:38.or other areas of that. Resuscitating the heart? As long as
:35:38. > :35:42.there is consent. This is all about consenting to organ donation. What
:35:42. > :35:47.we don't do well enough in this country, we are beginning to put
:35:47. > :35:52.those building blocks in place, is unsure that the public are thinking
:35:52. > :35:55.more about organ donation in their life as an employee, in schools,
:35:55. > :36:00.through the media, so that people recognise there is a shortage of
:36:00. > :36:04.organ donation. All of the research in this country shows that most
:36:04. > :36:09.people on the street do not, to this day, realise that they have to
:36:09. > :36:12.wait for a transplant. People are soon you are going to receive a
:36:12. > :36:20.transplant if you join a waiting list. As anybody will tell you,
:36:20. > :36:24.this is not the case. I totally agree. I think it needs to be that
:36:24. > :36:28.people need to be more comfortable talking about it. Possibly more
:36:28. > :36:34.education in schools about it. So that families are aware of what
:36:34. > :36:37.their loved ones actually want. If they have to come to that decision,
:36:37. > :36:42.then they know what they're that one wants, rather than going
:36:42. > :36:46.against their wishes because the rate of them saying no at the
:36:46. > :36:50.minute is 40%. That is a lot of where the problem is. I think
:36:50. > :36:57.intensive care units need more help, more intensive training on
:36:57. > :37:02.approaching the family. It's about education, giving information?
:37:02. > :37:06.think simple steps like that will make a lot of difference. Dale
:37:06. > :37:12.Gardiner, do you think these techniques, keeping a heart going,
:37:12. > :37:17.keeping a body going on ventilation, do you think they are acceptable?
:37:17. > :37:23.It's extremely complicated, this medical technology. What is
:37:23. > :37:26.possible is not always right. People think a simple solution is
:37:27. > :37:30.all that is required. When they have a donor and a donor family and
:37:30. > :37:34.they have to walk into a room and talk to them, there is a tragedy
:37:34. > :37:36.going on in their lives, and I have to walk in and give them the most
:37:36. > :37:42.heartbreaking news they will ever receive and then approached them
:37:42. > :37:46.about organ donation, it is never going to be an easy task. We need
:37:46. > :37:48.to get into understanding the families and supporting them. It
:37:48. > :37:55.easy means supporting the families and helping them cope with this
:37:55. > :38:03.terrible tragedy, yes. But if easy means that we start to turn into a
:38:03. > :38:06.commodity, tweets them like and use words like harvest, as if it is a
:38:06. > :38:12.body to be consumed, what they're doing is giving the greatest gift
:38:12. > :38:16.anybody can give in peace time to another person. Keeping somebody
:38:16. > :38:21.alive for longer than they would normally be alive, interrupting the
:38:21. > :38:25.natural processes of death, for you, is that beyond a line of
:38:25. > :38:29.acceptability? What happens now when people become an organ donor
:38:29. > :38:34.is that at the moment you may have been entered... I'll give you an
:38:34. > :38:40.example, you are entered into it at this and emergency, you have a
:38:40. > :38:44.terrible bleed in your head. We tried to resuscitate you. Over
:38:44. > :38:47.there next few days, we learn as doctors that you're not going to
:38:47. > :38:50.survive. Then we start to think about end of life care. That is
:38:50. > :38:54.when you're going to talk to the family. In that regard, they are
:38:54. > :39:00.having treatment continued. Once a family says yes, we are happy for
:39:00. > :39:04.them to be an organ donor, we are going to make this gift, then
:39:04. > :39:10.starts one of the most complicated processes in the NHS. It takes at
:39:10. > :39:13.least 12 and sometimes 24 hours from that moment to went donation
:39:14. > :39:17.proceeds. That is because you can donate multiple organs and saved
:39:17. > :39:22.many lives. That requires multiple teams to come from all around the
:39:22. > :39:25.country to that hospital and then recipients, again, there might be
:39:25. > :39:30.getting a phone call saying to come into hospital. It's extremely time-
:39:30. > :39:34.consuming. It takes 12 or 24 hours. A family and dying person is there
:39:34. > :39:39.the whole time. This question of elective ventilation is a new thing.
:39:39. > :39:43.It was tried about 20 years ago. Because of the donor shortage,
:39:43. > :39:47.people are trying to think about it. Is it beyond the line of
:39:47. > :39:51.acceptability? It creates a brand new system where we initiate
:39:51. > :39:57.treatment that we would never start, that has never been started on that
:39:57. > :40:07.person. It potentially makes the last moments one of intervention,
:40:07. > :40:07.
:40:07. > :40:11.of doctors intervening, rather than You understand this position.
:40:11. > :40:15.Martin, your teenage son, died of a brain haemorrhage. One of the
:40:15. > :40:20.things we need to change in attitudes is the fact that his
:40:20. > :40:26.organs save at least six people. We were discussing this earlier, over
:40:26. > :40:32.a cup of coffee. He is a hero for what he has done for others. And
:40:32. > :40:37.that should be absolutely a highlight. That is kind of part of
:40:37. > :40:42.changing attitudes, isn't it? I think the support of thing for
:40:42. > :40:45.families is that it is seen as a gift. It is also an important thing
:40:45. > :40:51.for a lot of recipients. They need to know that the family made that
:40:51. > :40:56.choice, they made that decision voluntarily. With no controversy.
:40:56. > :41:04.All of these various, slightly controversial systems... SLIGHTLY
:41:04. > :41:10.controversial? How would you have felt if the situation was... Well,
:41:10. > :41:13.we need to put Martin... You know, invasive is what Dale called it. We
:41:13. > :41:18.need to prolong his life in order to preserve his organs and make
:41:18. > :41:22.them ready for a donation, we need to resuscitate his heart. You have
:41:22. > :41:26.been in a situation not dissimilar. How would that have been for you?
:41:26. > :41:33.think it would have made it harder. The approach is the most important
:41:33. > :41:36.part to identify donors, especially for nurses to approach the donors
:41:36. > :41:42.as soon as possible, so it is looked on as a positive experience,
:41:42. > :41:46.as positive as it can be at a time of family tragedy. For us, it was
:41:46. > :41:50.made a positive experience. It's so important so that families... You
:41:50. > :41:53.have a short experience, a short period of time to make the decision,
:41:53. > :42:00.and it can be the most important decision of your life. Whether it
:42:00. > :42:04.is yes or no, it is important not to regret. We have processes in
:42:04. > :42:08.place, without controversial procedures, for that to happen.
:42:08. > :42:15.That is an organ donation task force, there are recent NICE
:42:15. > :42:17.guidelines, what we need is to campaign, as the doctor said, we
:42:17. > :42:21.need a campaign for the general public to make sure everybody
:42:22. > :42:25.considers organ donation. Not when they are sat in hospital with a
:42:25. > :42:31.member of their family who is dying. It is something to be confronted
:42:31. > :42:41.with at the hour, at that moment, isn't it? It always will be. Well
:42:41. > :42:41.
:42:42. > :42:45.said. Richard? Well said indeed. These are very difficult matters.
:42:45. > :42:48.But Dr's life and the patient's life would be made easier if
:42:48. > :42:54.everybody carried wannabes. I want to appeal to people to carry a
:42:54. > :42:59.donor colt -- card. If the doctors knew that much more people were
:42:59. > :43:04.carrying donor cards, many of these dilemmas would not arise. Do get
:43:04. > :43:08.one. But families might still ultimately say no. That is where
:43:08. > :43:14.the problem occurs. It doesn't matter if you are on the list or
:43:14. > :43:21.not. If the family say no, that is what he wanted, that is where
:43:21. > :43:25.problems arise. It is all about timing. Doctors go in there to
:43:25. > :43:30.discuss a donation. If the timing is wrong, if they get there were
:43:30. > :43:39.digging out of place, it is just... If the family have discussed it in
:43:39. > :43:42.depth, around the tea table, then that helps as well. They should be
:43:42. > :43:45.campaigns to encourage people to discuss it before they are put in
:43:45. > :43:49.that situation, so they did not change their mind because they are
:43:49. > :43:51.put on the spot. I would ask someone like Amy, would you not
:43:51. > :43:55.prefer to know that when you receive your transplant that it
:43:55. > :44:00.comes from somebody that has voluntarily made that decision?
:44:00. > :44:04.Definitely. It makes it easier for you to accept? I try not to think
:44:04. > :44:08.about it. Some people think I am waiting for somebody to die. I try
:44:08. > :44:12.not to think that way. You are waiting for someone that is going
:44:12. > :44:18.to die anyway and for their family to say yes. It's a totally
:44:18. > :44:23.different situation. I think it is hard for people to understand what
:44:23. > :44:27.brain stem dead is, in comparison to being in a coma. It's the
:44:27. > :44:32.darkest time anyone can go through. If someone is asking for their
:44:32. > :44:35.organs, that they are preserving, keeping alive, the family are still
:44:35. > :44:39.going to have that hope that person is going to come back. A lot of
:44:39. > :44:45.people do not understand the difference. It is a dark time to
:44:45. > :44:55.try to explain that to someone. know you are thinking about the
:44:55. > :44:55.
:44:55. > :45:00.number of times, as you might put Well, precisely, and it is so
:45:00. > :45:03.humbling, because I did not know the figures about donation, I was
:45:03. > :45:10.wondering whether I should feel guilty about not carrying a card.
:45:10. > :45:17.As Richard managed to do that? Finally! But it is also true,
:45:17. > :45:23.because I do believe that miracles can happen in everyday life, it is
:45:23. > :45:33.a horrible thought that a family is hoping, hoping, hoping for their
:45:33. > :45:38.child or their spouse to come back from almost the dead. And that hope
:45:38. > :45:44.is extinguished. When do you let go? Where the sated then, that hope
:45:44. > :45:48.is extinguished? -- When do you say to them. She surely it is brain
:45:48. > :45:52.stem death, Richard. I do not know enough about it. We are talking
:45:52. > :45:57.about somebody who would have been taken off a ventilator, so has far
:45:57. > :46:05.as the doctors are concerned, the decision to Ard Fheis has already
:46:05. > :46:08.been taken. It is about incubating somebody. The patients are on a
:46:08. > :46:13.breeding machine, they have a tune that is helping them with breeding.
:46:13. > :46:17.I would echo those thoughts. When I enter into a room and talk to a
:46:17. > :46:21.family with terrible news, if they have actually talked about it as a
:46:21. > :46:26.family or they are on the register, it is such a relief. Even if the
:46:26. > :46:30.answer is no, because they have spoken about it, when they are left
:46:30. > :46:36.not knowing what the person wanted, that is an agony for Royal Family.
:46:36. > :46:40.You should never put your family in that situation. -- for your family.
:46:40. > :46:45.I would pick up a me's point about families say No even when you're on
:46:45. > :46:49.the register. That happens very rarely. Only in about 10% of
:46:49. > :46:53.occasions. But you have got to imagine the 24 hour process that I
:46:53. > :46:57.outlined, and it sort of begins when you have had three days of
:46:57. > :47:03.Knowsley at all, because you are going through the worst tragedy of
:47:03. > :47:08.your life. -- no sleep. Sometimes 12 and 24 hours in a lifetime in
:47:08. > :47:14.that circumstance. For us now, it is nothing, you should go through
:47:14. > :47:20.it, but... It is an eternity. an eternity for those people, and
:47:20. > :47:26.you should respect that. As a humanist, do you think one's dead,
:47:26. > :47:29.dead, it doesn't matter? wonderful thing that modern medical
:47:29. > :47:35.science has given us is a sort of afterlife in that you can help
:47:35. > :47:37.other people to live on. Donation is an incredible achievement. I
:47:38. > :47:41.personally, and the British humanist Association, too, has
:47:41. > :47:46.supported the idea of an opt-out system. However invasive the
:47:46. > :47:50.procedure, should we take that chance, make the step to help
:47:50. > :47:54.others? The greatest good for the greatest number? You have to be
:47:54. > :47:59.rational and ethical when you're making policy decisions, but you
:47:59. > :48:04.have got to appreciate the emotional situation case by case.
:48:04. > :48:08.Any system that says, for example, an opt-out system, where the norm
:48:08. > :48:12.would be for organs to be donated, there will always be a provision
:48:13. > :48:17.for families to still be able to say no, the safeguards that are
:48:17. > :48:23.being discussed. We would get two different Islamic perspectives,
:48:23. > :48:27.which you have a donor card? I will not carry a card, do not take my
:48:27. > :48:36.organ after my death, for many reasons. What is the theological
:48:36. > :48:40.reason? The day of judgment, is it? As a Muslim, no organ donation, but
:48:40. > :48:43.with strict conditions. I would like to go back to the basic, if
:48:43. > :48:48.you allow me, with respect to the medical profession. We have a
:48:48. > :48:52.rising number of organ donation failures etcetera. What are we
:48:52. > :48:57.doing? You know alcohol will give you liver cirrhosis, why are you
:48:57. > :49:01.chasing me to give my liver to you? You caused by your drinking! You
:49:01. > :49:06.know that smoking will give you lung cancer, why are you chasing me
:49:06. > :49:11.for my lungs? Medical profession has to go back to the basics.
:49:11. > :49:14.most people, it is through no fault of their own. Who are we to cast
:49:14. > :49:24.the first stone perhaps? Why do you believe it is important to have
:49:24. > :49:29.organs intact on a day of judgment? Obviously, first, God is the Lord
:49:29. > :49:34.of our body, we have no right, we have to keep the organ functioning,
:49:34. > :49:42.no alcohol, no smoking etcetera. Not many Muslims no doubt. The holy
:49:42. > :49:49.book, the Koran, my hand, my feet, my ears, my vision, my skin, record
:49:49. > :49:54.every deed of what I do in his life, good or bad. On the day of judgment,
:49:54. > :49:58.all my accounts will be put to God by my organs. More important...
:49:58. > :50:03.it says in the Koran, whoever saves the life of one person, it is like
:50:03. > :50:08.saving the life of all mankind. This is what I do in my campaign
:50:08. > :50:11.against abortion, 600 babies a day, I am trying to stop this daily
:50:11. > :50:16.massacre of babies in Britain! have a slightly different
:50:16. > :50:21.perspective. It is too simple to say, you said yourself that the
:50:21. > :50:25.organs will testify, they do not have to be new to testify, that is
:50:25. > :50:28.the first point. Secondly, going back to what was said before, the
:50:28. > :50:34.fundamental issue is that people do not know enough about organ
:50:34. > :50:40.donation. From a Muslim perspective, there have been fatters that have
:50:40. > :50:44.been religiously sought during this. -- fatwa. The majority of people
:50:44. > :50:47.say that it is a good tea. The thing is, as a Muslim, I believe I
:50:47. > :50:53.have been sent to do good, to help people irrespective of their faith
:50:53. > :50:58.or religion. God does not need to see your heart. It is the spiritual
:50:58. > :51:03.heart, Bajaur actual heart. The point is to help others. It is very
:51:03. > :51:07.easy to become very theoretical and say, should we give organs or not?
:51:07. > :51:14.The fundamental thing is, if it was happening to your own family, you
:51:14. > :51:17.would not think for a second, you would do it. I find it very
:51:17. > :51:21.compelling that you should talk about your organs testify to the
:51:21. > :51:27.deeds that you have done, when actually you can stand before your
:51:27. > :51:32.God and say that you save six lives with those very organs. God has the
:51:32. > :51:35.power... He has the almighty power to save everybody's life. If
:51:35. > :51:43.everybody lived to 200, how many billions of people what we have in
:51:43. > :51:49.this world? We have to respect our own body. If somebody... Let's say
:51:49. > :51:55.I needed units of blood, I refused to take them. I am a blood donor,
:51:55. > :51:58.but I would not take an organ, God forbid I suffer from anything.
:51:58. > :52:03.have a question in that theory. If one of your children needed an
:52:03. > :52:09.organ, would you let them take one? No. I would ask them to go against
:52:09. > :52:19.it, I would say no. So you would happily let them die? Yes. We
:52:19. > :52:19.
:52:19. > :52:26.believe there life after death. cannot understand that. Jonathan!
:52:26. > :52:30.Jonathan! I do not tend to see my faith in legalistic terms, and it
:52:30. > :52:38.tends to be about... I see human beings as gifts to one another, and
:52:38. > :52:41.that is why we are here, there is a communal responsibility. 4,500
:52:41. > :52:47.people die in London from air pollution, and I have contributed
:52:47. > :52:51.to that. I have a responsibility to work that out. There is a sense
:52:51. > :52:54.that there is an individualistic approach which says, my body is my
:52:54. > :52:58.own to do what the hell I like with. I do not see my faith leading me to
:52:58. > :53:02.that conclusion about what it means to be made in the image of God. It
:53:02. > :53:08.is about my obligations to each other, my gift of myself to one
:53:08. > :53:13.another. Gift is a word much used in this. And grace comes from that,
:53:13. > :53:18.which is about forgiveness when you mess up your liver! Certainly after
:53:18. > :53:24.this show! You have looked into the into fake aspects of this. How much
:53:24. > :53:29.of a problem is it? I just think these are just Muslim views, others
:53:29. > :53:34.would take a different view. To come up against problems like this
:53:34. > :53:38.in different fates? We do. There is a range of positions within any
:53:38. > :53:44.faith. I think what is interesting for me, though... Do not force it
:53:44. > :53:48.on us, opting out. I am not forcing anything up on anyone. Do not make
:53:48. > :53:53.law to force all Muslims, Christians to take his organ! This
:53:53. > :54:00.is what you are pushing with the BMA. I am not part of the BMA.
:54:00. > :54:03.Carry on. He is entitled to this view? Absolutely. He is entitled!
:54:04. > :54:07.We need to recognise that one of four people waiting for a kidney
:54:07. > :54:12.transplant is from an African Caribbean or South Asian community.
:54:12. > :54:16.They have chosen, because it is a choice, to join the transplant
:54:16. > :54:20.waiting list. They have obviously decided that they have a set of
:54:21. > :54:25.values that permits them to join a waiting list, and it permits them
:54:25. > :54:29.to receive an organ, most importantly, permits that family
:54:29. > :54:34.and individual from where the organism to come from to reconcile
:54:34. > :54:37.their values, be they faith or whatever, to donate an organ. So I
:54:37. > :54:43.think it is interesting that we have people from lots of different
:54:43. > :54:47.faiths the war on the waiting list. Happy to receive. Most importantly,
:54:47. > :54:52.not just happy to receive, but they are happy for another family who
:54:52. > :54:56.may have those same faiths, happy for them to reconcile those
:54:56. > :54:59.barriers and decide, yes, they should be an organ donor, and I
:54:59. > :55:02.will receive that organ. We should recognise that. What is really
:55:02. > :55:07.powerful, which has been highlighted in this debate, is that
:55:07. > :55:11.we are now beginning to get people of faith at senior levels across
:55:11. > :55:15.this country in rooms together to debate these issues. Most
:55:15. > :55:18.importantly, to give to the public the various opinions, because most
:55:18. > :55:22.important to this is that the public make an informed decision
:55:22. > :55:27.and to have the different perspectives of their faith or
:55:27. > :55:31.whatever else is important to them so that they can make a personal
:55:31. > :55:37.decision with their family, but I do think it is a really interesting
:55:37. > :55:41.thing, as Amy points out, that proportion bleak Asians and African
:55:41. > :55:47.Caribbeans on the make-up 8% of the population but are three times
:55:47. > :55:55.greater represented on the waiting list. -- only make up. Good morning
:55:55. > :55:58.to you. There is a microphone there. I would like to say, it should be
:55:58. > :56:02.seen as a gift. It should not be a perspective where it should be a
:56:02. > :56:06.matter of fact thing that people automatically receive. It should be
:56:06. > :56:10.perceived as a gift in the first place. Families should have that,
:56:10. > :56:14.people should have that conversation with their families to
:56:14. > :56:17.say, this is what I want to do, so in the event of any tragedy, the
:56:17. > :56:23.family know what their wishes were and they do not feel bullied into
:56:23. > :56:27.saying, you should do this, you should give your organs. It is a
:56:27. > :56:32.change of mindset, isn't it? Absolutely right. Over here, you
:56:32. > :56:36.wanted to say something. I just think, as a country, we are really
:56:36. > :56:39.poor at discussing difficult things around health gap. I work in
:56:39. > :56:43.healthcare research, and yet I have no idea how I feel about this issue
:56:43. > :56:46.for my own organs are what my family would want as well. I think
:56:46. > :56:50.we could really engage people in this, it is something that affects
:56:50. > :56:54.all of us, but we systematically fail to do that. Because of that,
:56:55. > :56:58.we always end up going to top-down solutions, where we would go to an
:56:58. > :57:01.opt-out system, which I do not feel very comfortable with. I think we
:57:01. > :57:06.could easily address this problem so it would not be an issue and we
:57:06. > :57:13.would not have to go to these more controversial top-down approaches.
:57:14. > :57:17.Over there, hello. Well, personally, I believe has almost no limits now.
:57:17. > :57:21.John Lennon said that reality is anything that you can dream of, and
:57:21. > :57:25.in medicine you can keep ploughing on, so I think that they need to be
:57:25. > :57:30.limits, but when you get to these moral-immoral boundaries, it
:57:30. > :57:34.becomes so great, we do not know what is wrong or right any more.
:57:34. > :57:39.And so I personally believe that we need to pull back some times of the
:57:39. > :57:43.things that we do. I believe organ donation is a good thing Bach
:57:43. > :57:50.steady as we go. Exactly, every article pipping alive to harvest
:57:50. > :57:54.organs, I think that is immoral. -- if we are keeping people alive till
:57:54. > :57:57.harvest organs. Richard. It is difficult, and that is why I would
:57:57. > :58:01.advocate more people carrying cards, many of whom probably have not
:58:01. > :58:06.thought about it. If the medical profession knew that they had a
:58:06. > :58:12.larger starting base hot support for organ donation, then there
:58:12. > :58:15.would be less pressure to resort to these more controversial areas like
:58:15. > :58:21.keeping people alive for longer than they otherwise would. Are you
:58:21. > :58:25.going to carry one? Yes, what were you going to say? I have got four
:58:25. > :58:30.kids. I'm finding myself very much persuaded by the testimony of
:58:30. > :58:34.people here this morning. I have not carried one, partly because I
:58:34. > :58:39.have not thought about it. Have you changed your mind? I did not think
:58:39. > :58:43.it was a sin in the first place Whyman not to think about things,