:00:27. > :00:32.Good morning. Welcome to The Big Questions, from Manor Church of
:00:32. > :00:35.England School in York. I'm Nicky Campbell. Eric Pickles, the
:00:35. > :00:40.Communities Secretary, has a plan to bring us all closer together
:00:40. > :00:44.across class, colour and creed with shared British values. Our first
:00:44. > :00:49.big question - should we promote a united British identity? The poet
:00:49. > :00:52.Benjamin Zephaniah says Britain's strength is that it is a blend of
:00:52. > :00:57.different cultures who share only one valued - belief in democracy.
:00:57. > :01:00.On Friday, Iran voted for a new parliament.
:01:00. > :01:05.President Ahmadinejad's candidates are regarded as moderates compared
:01:05. > :01:08.to those supporting Iran's Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Khamenei. With
:01:08. > :01:18.tensions already heightened with Israel and the West over Iran's new
:01:18. > :01:21.
:01:21. > :01:25.club for -- nuclear potential, our next big question - is Iran a real
:01:25. > :01:29.threat? And finally, should we listen to
:01:29. > :01:34.the angels? The author Lorna Byrne sees angels wherever she goes and
:01:34. > :01:43.believes they are using her to send a message to the world. Welcome to
:01:43. > :01:47.The Big Questions this morning. Now, separate lives, differing
:01:47. > :01:50.values being tolerated across Britain's diverse faith, ethnic and
:01:50. > :01:55.social mix is soon to be a thing of the past. The Government will do
:01:55. > :01:57.its best to promote freedom of speech, freedom of worship,
:01:57. > :02:03.democracy and the rule of law as fundamental British values to be
:02:03. > :02:08.accepted by all. Should we promote a united British identity? Douglas
:02:08. > :02:11.Murray, how can you construct a narrative that unites under one
:02:11. > :02:15.umbrella, if you like, on a rainy day, a hedge fund manager in
:02:16. > :02:19.Weybridge with the young Muslim man in Bradford? It would be hard to
:02:19. > :02:23.create that from scratch. Fortunately, we are not doing it
:02:23. > :02:31.from scratch. You can create a shared British identity through our
:02:31. > :02:36.shared culture and history. If you teach that well, it is something
:02:36. > :02:42.which anyone can feel part of. aspect of that history do you
:02:42. > :02:46.emphasise? All sorts of things, the good and bad. There is a feeling
:02:46. > :02:50.that at some points in the past, we might have only celebrated the good
:02:50. > :02:58.things in our culture. Others would say we have only celebrated the bad.
:02:58. > :03:03.You have to teach people pride and awareness of pitfalls. What is the
:03:03. > :03:07.pride, invention, industry, culture? People fill pride in
:03:07. > :03:12.different things. Some feel pride in our sporting achievements,
:03:12. > :03:16.others in our cultural achievements. Most feel a bit of all these things.
:03:16. > :03:21.But when people talk about a shared British identity, they tend to
:03:21. > :03:27.assume that you are excluding people somehow. The key thing is
:03:27. > :03:33.that you have a core culture on which all sorts of people pursue
:03:33. > :03:40.different things around it, but they know what the core is. Then
:03:40. > :03:46.what is the core? The court in this case is British identity, British
:03:46. > :03:54.achievements, writing, philosophy, art, architecture. That is a lot of
:03:54. > :03:58.things. Britain, by definition, is multicultural. The Celts, the Picts,
:03:58. > :04:04.all the early tribes that came here came with a different culture. Even
:04:04. > :04:12.the Romans brought a culture. So the new cultures that come now are
:04:12. > :04:22.doing what Britain has done, and we should be embracing them because
:04:22. > :04:23.
:04:23. > :04:28.that is what is at the core of being British. If Eric Pickles said
:04:28. > :04:34.he wanted to come up with an idea of what Britishness is, could you
:04:34. > :04:39.imagine? A group of men sitting in suits around a table. You should
:04:39. > :04:42.not have to invent something. You just have to identify it. What
:04:43. > :04:49.about empire? At empire would be part of it. You would teach the
:04:49. > :04:53.good and bad things about empire. No one believes in that concept of
:04:53. > :04:56.Britishness, but what is disturbing is that David Cameron and Eric
:04:56. > :05:04.Pickles, ahead of the election on May 3rd, are trying to turn up the
:05:04. > :05:11.noise on this debate in an attempt to attract audiences of... Who
:05:11. > :05:20.knows what their views are. Why do we need this? There are a number of
:05:20. > :05:24.reasons. Embracing multiculturalism is great. But we should not promote
:05:24. > :05:29.faith based identity politics or people being treated differently
:05:29. > :05:34.because of their faith, their race or their culture. That is what has
:05:34. > :05:37.happened over the last ten or 15 years. I have seen the brunt of
:05:37. > :05:41.that. David Cameron and Eric Pickles are trying to undo what has
:05:41. > :05:44.been done over the last ten years, where people have been dealt with
:05:44. > :05:50.according to their faith etc, and they have been living separate
:05:50. > :05:54.lives, not mixing. I am not talking about assimilation, but integration.
:05:54. > :06:00.People have not been able to speak English, yet been born here. What
:06:00. > :06:04.about the way people dress who come from Pakistan, for example? When
:06:04. > :06:10.immigrants come to this country, it is natural that they bring with
:06:10. > :06:16.them a particular culture. My uncle's had been here since the
:06:16. > :06:19.'20s. I remember looking at photos of the immigrants that came over.
:06:19. > :06:25.They were dressing in a manner that would help them integrate into
:06:25. > :06:32.society. Now, the people who are Pakistani or Bangladeshi are more
:06:32. > :06:37.Pakistani than people in Pakistan. A few years ago, a British man
:06:37. > :06:43.would have been represented by a man in a bowler hat. You do not see
:06:43. > :06:47.that now. It changes. I know somebody who, years ago, got
:06:47. > :06:52.married when she was 18. Her husband died when she was 20, and
:06:52. > :06:57.she stayed in mourning, covered in black, for all her life. And she
:06:57. > :07:07.lived to be 80 or something. That would have been seen as British
:07:07. > :07:09.
:07:09. > :07:14.culture. It is not any more. Should Kiran Bali be wearing a tweed two-
:07:14. > :07:18.piece, then? For we celebrate the diversity we have in this country.
:07:18. > :07:23.But what is missing is They do That binds us together. How do we get
:07:23. > :07:27.that? With a sense of belonging through the British values of
:07:27. > :07:33.freedom of speech, the rule of law, democracy, all those things which
:07:33. > :07:37.are prevalent among the religions as well. And English, being the
:07:37. > :07:44.common light bridge, will serve to bridge the gaps between communities.
:07:44. > :07:54.But we have another language. Forget about Hindi and Urdu. There
:07:54. > :07:58.
:07:58. > :08:05.has to be a common language, English. What about Brummie?
:08:05. > :08:09.Reverend, let's bring you in. Eric Pickles said the separate lives
:08:09. > :08:13.strategy has failed. I think people live separate lives because it is
:08:13. > :08:18.natural. There is no policy of separate nurse. People gravitate to
:08:18. > :08:23.people who are like them and they live in their own comfort zone.
:08:23. > :08:27.That is the reality we face. It is where we come together. It is
:08:28. > :08:32.Englishness that I am concerned about. I work in Bradford with a
:08:32. > :08:35.new immigrant groups, asylum- seekers, refugees and others. I am
:08:35. > :08:40.appalled at the fact that there is no hope -- help for people to
:08:40. > :08:45.access services. People are isolated because they cannot speak
:08:45. > :08:50.English, and they are living in these sort of enclaves. Individuals
:08:50. > :08:54.like me are doing voluntary work. The councils are not doing enough.
:08:54. > :09:00.There is no government policy of helping people, except to
:09:00. > :09:05.understand what makes a Britain. We can talk about democracy... I know
:09:05. > :09:10.a young chap who was born in this country. He went to a school which
:09:10. > :09:14.was predominantly Pakistani heritage people, 99%. He went to
:09:14. > :09:17.university and only mix with people from Pakistan who worked for his
:09:17. > :09:22.father, Pakistani best customers. He left the company after having a
:09:22. > :09:27.problem with his father. I got him a job somewhere else in mainstream
:09:27. > :09:33.society, and he could not survive in that job. He signs on now. This
:09:33. > :09:39.is someone who was born here. Limiting life and job prospects. Do
:09:39. > :09:44.you think somebody wearing a niqab, for example, should be reading the
:09:44. > :09:46.9 o'clock news on TV? If she wants to. But I would have a problem
:09:46. > :09:56.taking my family to a restaurant of the waiters were wearing a
:09:56. > :10:05.balaclava. I think we get hung up on trivialities. In terms of how we
:10:05. > :10:10.dress, how do you define what stress is? What this gentleman said
:10:10. > :10:14.will be a government strategy, not just scaremongering or using it for
:10:14. > :10:19.political ends. If there is a genuine concern, we should see that
:10:19. > :10:24.strategy coming out. Do you think these things are happening
:10:24. > :10:30.naturally? You were saying that when you go to Kashmir, you feel
:10:30. > :10:33.British. At the end of the day, you pick up the norms, the conventions
:10:33. > :10:39.and the way of doing things. You only realise that when you go out.
:10:39. > :10:45.You mentioned Brummies. We talk about Lancashire and Yorkshire and
:10:45. > :10:50.cricket and football. There will be slight differences. You said
:10:50. > :10:56.earlier that when you see people jumping queues, you get angry. That
:10:56. > :11:02.is a very British thing. I found this out the hard way. I went back
:11:02. > :11:07.to visit my grandfather, who lived in this country for 50 years. He
:11:07. > :11:11.just wanted a warm place to retire. We do not have those in Yorkshire!
:11:11. > :11:16.At the airport, there was an elderly Pakistani gentleman behind
:11:16. > :11:21.me who started kicking off. People over there accept this. It is just
:11:21. > :11:25.normal that people jump the queue. And it is who you know. It might
:11:25. > :11:30.happen in small cases in this country, but it is not common. We
:11:30. > :11:34.do not accept it. Asian people, when they go to Pakistan, they tell
:11:34. > :11:38.people about this. They say, we love it in Britain. We don't get
:11:39. > :11:45.this. But when we come here, we have to go to influential people to
:11:45. > :11:49.get things done. In Britain, we don't have to do that. Benjamin
:11:49. > :11:59.Zephaniah, what is a better idea to foster a sense of unity? What about
:11:59. > :12:00.
:12:00. > :12:05.the Queen? What about her? Does she not transcend? Is she not a
:12:05. > :12:10.unifying force? I feel very British. If I go to Jamaica, they look at me
:12:10. > :12:14.by the way I walk. I don't even have to talk. They just see my body
:12:14. > :12:18.language, and they know I am British. But I would like to do
:12:19. > :12:22.away with the Queen. Does that make me less British? Definitely.
:12:22. > :12:28.course it does not. There has been a tradition of republicanism in
:12:28. > :12:34.this country for years. This is a constitutional monarchy. Does that
:12:34. > :12:39.make him less British? Yes, it does. It is outrageous on national
:12:39. > :12:45.television to say to get rid of the Queen. That is our Queen in this
:12:45. > :12:49.country you are talking about, sunshine. Sunshine? How dare you!
:12:49. > :12:52.How can you have people on your programme Call Me Sunshine? If you
:12:52. > :12:57.were to insult at the head of state anywhere else, you would be in
:12:57. > :13:01.trouble. Don't insult the head of state at. But it is the beauty of
:13:01. > :13:05.this country that you are not allowed -- you are allowed to not
:13:05. > :13:14.like the Queen. What about the Levellers? You are allowed to have
:13:14. > :13:18.Union Jack T-shirts. The threat about being British is the same
:13:18. > :13:23.discussion that is coming up. It is a problem that may be created in
:13:23. > :13:32.the future. I think people in this country should not be defined by
:13:32. > :13:39.their race, their gender or their culture. It will be a diverse
:13:39. > :13:46.British community. I think religion or language is a problem. If we
:13:46. > :13:49.want to all have a common language called English, why does the
:13:49. > :13:52.British government Cup English courses for people who enter the
:13:52. > :14:00.UK? There should be support for people to learn the language. There
:14:00. > :14:04.is no support. They have to pay. Benjamin, our friend over their
:14:04. > :14:08.highlighter something interesting. He called me sunshine. I know, and
:14:08. > :14:17.I apologise if you were offended. But freedom of speech is vital,
:14:17. > :14:22.isn't it? He didn't give me any. You have it now. Even when the
:14:22. > :14:26.Queen and the monarchy were German, white, even back then, there was
:14:26. > :14:32.multiculturalism in this country. Not so long ago, the East End of
:14:32. > :14:36.London was a poor Jewish area. There were parts of the East End of
:14:36. > :14:41.London which were a poor German area. There were poor Polish areas
:14:41. > :14:45.when people came from those countries, they gathered together
:14:45. > :14:49.for security because they had people who understood them. Once
:14:49. > :14:58.they lifted themselves out of poverty, they moved out. That is
:14:58. > :15:05.what needs to be addressed in these This is about class, isn't it?
:15:05. > :15:09.Socio-economic. To a great extent, yes. People that come into this
:15:09. > :15:14.country tend to be at the lower socio-economic class and then over
:15:14. > :15:20.decades and centuries they come up. To an extent, it is true that there
:15:20. > :15:24.has always been immigration in this country and in the last 60 years
:15:24. > :15:29.there has been much more. Some of these debates are more febrile than
:15:29. > :15:33.they were then. The amount of Huguenots that came to this country
:15:33. > :15:37.over the course of a century was the same number of people that were
:15:37. > :15:41.in a grating to Britain in a few months under New Labour. --
:15:41. > :15:44.emigrating to Britain. It is a different case and we do not
:15:44. > :15:48.necessarily have to pretend that away. Although we have immigration,
:15:48. > :15:53.there has always been a sense of identity in this country. That
:15:53. > :15:57.should not be ignored and it should not be pretended away. People are
:15:57. > :16:02.saying that Britain has always been a country with no identity that is
:16:02. > :16:05.British. We do. People feel it. A lot of damage is done when you tell
:16:05. > :16:11.people that they do not have an identity or the right to an
:16:11. > :16:17.identity. I was born and educated in this country and my identity is
:16:17. > :16:20.precisely not having that identity. Britishness is not having that
:16:20. > :16:24.identity. That might be fine for you but not for other people. Lots
:16:24. > :16:29.of people want to feel an identity and pride. They may not want to
:16:29. > :16:32.celebrate not having an identity like you, but having one. That is
:16:32. > :16:38.Britishness. What is wrong with encouraging the pride of being
:16:38. > :16:44.British? People that are indulging in an to national activities are
:16:44. > :16:49.dangerous. What is dangerous? unBritish to think like that.
:16:49. > :16:53.unBritish to have an idea of being British? An interesting paradox!
:16:53. > :16:58.When you are abroad you have that feeling of Britishness because you
:16:58. > :17:01.sometimes know what it is. But it is complicated. The idea of British
:17:01. > :17:05.people wandering around being proud to be British is not very British.
:17:05. > :17:14.You should not pretend that people do not have an identity and do not
:17:14. > :17:18.feel it. Another thing worth considering is that historic... Of
:17:18. > :17:23.what we have here is pretty unique. Very few countries have this level
:17:23. > :17:27.of tolerance and decency. That is not accidental. It is because
:17:27. > :17:29.people have fought this through before in this country. There is a
:17:30. > :17:33.tradition of philosophy and a religious tradition that has been
:17:33. > :17:37.accepting of people. We should know about it if we are going to
:17:37. > :17:42.celebrate it. If you get somebody to come up with an idea of what it
:17:42. > :17:47.is to be British, you will lose it. You are not coming up with it. It
:17:47. > :17:50.will evolve. There is a difference between evolving a British identity
:17:50. > :17:53.over time and celebrating multiculturalism and actively
:17:53. > :18:00.promoting that people live separately. There is a massive
:18:00. > :18:04.difference. Every time I have somebody to tell me what is
:18:04. > :18:08.Britishness, and to put it in a sentence, they can never do it. The
:18:08. > :18:15.things that made me proud of being British are different, probably, to
:18:15. > :18:19.the things that make you proud of being British. There will be some
:18:19. > :18:25.commonality. Yes, there will be some things in common. Freedom of
:18:26. > :18:29.speech. And all of law. Democratic process. -- rule of law. These are
:18:29. > :18:38.the similarities and we should focus on them. What freedom of
:18:38. > :18:44.speech? Freedom of speech means that this gentleman can upset this
:18:44. > :18:47.monarchist. That is fine. The Gentleman is right on one thing, it
:18:47. > :18:51.is run around the world to be in a country and so that you do not for
:18:51. > :18:55.the head of state and for that to beat fine but it is fine in this
:18:55. > :18:59.country. There is a long tradition of being anti- monarchy and it is
:18:59. > :19:06.part of it. It is not a value of only being British. Living in this
:19:06. > :19:11.country, either obey the law of this country. My identity is not
:19:11. > :19:16.being British, Asian, black. It is being human. If I come from another
:19:16. > :19:21.country and so that I am British, it will give lots of opportunity to
:19:21. > :19:30.the racists in this country to grow up. This is another threat. It is
:19:30. > :19:36.very damaging to the white people to be British or non-British.
:19:36. > :19:41.Everybody should be entitled equally. There is so much
:19:41. > :19:45.discrimination, especially against women. You have just said that to
:19:45. > :19:48.obey the law. In this country women have the right to vote. How do they
:19:48. > :19:56.get the right to vote? By disobeying the law.
:19:56. > :20:00.Thank you all very much indeed. Give Benjamin and Douglas and
:20:00. > :20:06.everybody around of applause. If you would like to have your say,
:20:06. > :20:11.please log on to our website. You will find links to places where you
:20:11. > :20:15.can continue discussing it online. We are also debating live this
:20:15. > :20:18.morning from the Manor Church of England School whether Iran is a
:20:18. > :20:23.real threat and if we should listen to the angels. Tell us what you
:20:23. > :20:30.think about those topics and send us your ideas for future debates
:20:30. > :20:34.and any comments you would like to make about the programme.
:20:34. > :20:39.Tomorrow Binyamin Netanyahu visits Barack Obama for a very important
:20:39. > :20:42.meeting. Top of the agenda is Iran and whether tougher sanctions or an
:20:42. > :20:47.Israeli attack is the best way of dealing with their nuclear
:20:47. > :20:53.ambitions. The rest of the world will be holding its breath. Is Iran
:20:53. > :20:58.a real threat? Douglas Murray? it is. It is a regional destabilise
:20:58. > :21:03.in the Middle East and it finds terrorist groups, Hamas, Hezbollah.
:21:03. > :21:06.It has destabilised the Lebanon. To that extent, yes, it is a threat.
:21:06. > :21:11.Some people believe that if you like what they are doing now,
:21:11. > :21:15.you'll love it when they are also a nuclear power. To that extent, yes,
:21:15. > :21:19.of course. It has a long history going back 30 years now, since the
:21:19. > :21:24.revolution. The Israeli assassination of Iranian nuclear
:21:24. > :21:29.scientists, is that not terrorism? I would just say that it is unwise
:21:29. > :21:33.to assume that it is Israelis carrying that up. Nobody knows.
:21:33. > :21:36.Somebody killed was a member of the green movement in Iran last week.
:21:36. > :21:41.There are a lot of things going on in the Middle East and lots of
:21:41. > :21:47.entries that really do not want Iran to become a nuclear power. --
:21:47. > :21:53.lots of countries. We should not assume. In a second, Benjamin.
:21:53. > :21:57.is not just Israelis that have a problem with Iran becoming nuclear.
:21:57. > :22:02.It is the Bahrainis, the Saudis, the people that are diametrically
:22:02. > :22:05.opposed in terms of theology and ideology, controlling the sacred
:22:05. > :22:10.places in Saudi Arabia. They are the people that have more to lose
:22:10. > :22:13.than the Israelis and they are the people that are really worried. If
:22:13. > :22:18.Iran escalates in terms of nuclear weapons, or what is to stop them
:22:18. > :22:24.getting them? You work for press to be. I do not work for them. I have
:22:24. > :22:28.a production company that produces programmes for them and did work
:22:28. > :22:33.for them in Tehran. This is the BBC and I work for the production
:22:33. > :22:38.company. It is funded by the Iranian state. Ahmadinejad has said
:22:38. > :22:42.some extraordinary things. Of 9/11, for example, he spoke of the myth
:22:42. > :22:47.of the Holocaust and said that 9/11 was orchestrated by people in the
:22:47. > :22:50.American Government. Can this man be trusted in any way? I think the
:22:50. > :22:56.way of using personalities to discuss the idea that his country
:22:56. > :23:02.will go to war of is another one in the next few months, as Tony Benn
:23:02. > :23:10.says, issues and not personalities. It is not just Barack Obama and
:23:10. > :23:14.Ahmadinejad. Replying to that point, you can say that Iran is not a
:23:14. > :23:22.nuclear threat. Barack Obama says so, the President of united States
:23:22. > :23:26.says so. It is lovely to hear somebody that works for that
:23:26. > :23:30.television station siting the press secretary as an authority. Recently
:23:30. > :23:34.were not doing that. Why believe this defence secretary when he says
:23:34. > :23:40.something that you agree with but you would not otherwise? And not a
:23:40. > :23:45.grin. That is the general consensus among policy makers. -- I am not
:23:45. > :23:53.agreeing. That is not the consensus at all. It is not the consensus. It
:23:53. > :23:57.is your opinion. I am taking statements by... By certain people.
:23:57. > :24:01.The US national intelligence services. We could all quite the
:24:01. > :24:04.opposite. The rhetoric coming from the Iranian regime is not positive.
:24:04. > :24:09.It sent jitters across the international community. The regime
:24:09. > :24:12.is not doing any favours to itself. It needs to build confidence to
:24:12. > :24:17.reassure us that we have got nuclear facilities and they will
:24:17. > :24:25.not be used for weapons. That is all that it will take. Unless they
:24:25. > :24:29.do otherwise it will escalate into war. They are malicious date in the
:24:29. > :24:39.heart of the Middle East with nuclear weapons, and that is how
:24:39. > :24:42.they are viewed by others. -- a militia state. David Cameron is
:24:42. > :24:46.arming them to kill their own populations. The rest of the
:24:46. > :24:53.developing world sees Britain and the united States as arming this
:24:53. > :25:00.proxy state called Israel. It is strange that we have countries in
:25:00. > :25:03.the Middle East, Pakistan, a country of origin and for my
:25:03. > :25:06.parents, who are struggling to feed the people and have real issues in
:25:06. > :25:12.their countries, but all they can think about is arming themselves
:25:12. > :25:19.with nuclear weapons. There are some real issues. Nobody would
:25:19. > :25:23.disagree with that. Peter Jenkins? I am frustrated by this discussion
:25:23. > :25:28.because there is no evidence that Iran has taken the decision to
:25:28. > :25:33.manufacture nuclear weapons. The leaders of Israel have been trying
:25:33. > :25:38.to persuade the rest of the world for 20 years now, ever since 1992,
:25:38. > :25:42.that Iran is a threat. But there is no evidence that it is trying to
:25:43. > :25:46.manufacture nuclear weapons. There is no evidence that it has given
:25:47. > :25:54.radioactive material to its friends in the level none, the Hizbollah.
:25:54. > :25:58.That would have been end natural thing to do. -- in the Lebanon.
:25:58. > :26:04.That would have been a natural thing to do. The leaders of Iran
:26:04. > :26:08.are rational. Which leaders? Ahmadinejad? A even he is rational.
:26:08. > :26:17.He is a rabble rouser, a populist, a demagogue. We know these people
:26:17. > :26:25.and we even have them in Britain. The Holocaust, and? Iranians are
:26:25. > :26:27.very intelligent and by and large a rational people. They know the
:26:27. > :26:32.world would be united in condemning it and taking action against them
:26:32. > :26:37.if they were to cross the threshold and bridge their Non-Proliferation
:26:38. > :26:41.treaty obligations and start manufacturing weapons. At the
:26:42. > :26:44.moment they are on good terms with Russia and China and most of the
:26:44. > :26:49.countries in the developing world, contrary to Western rhetoric which
:26:49. > :26:53.says they are isolated. They are not isolated. You are a former
:26:53. > :26:59.ambassador of the National Atomic Agency. Why do they not allow the
:26:59. > :27:06.inspectors to go where they want to go? The agency inspects countries
:27:06. > :27:10.according to an agreement, a legal agreement. Iran has always allowed
:27:10. > :27:16.the agency inspectors to go where it is entitled to go under that
:27:16. > :27:22.legal agreement. The one area in which they have so far made
:27:22. > :27:28.difficulties relate to allegations which were not covered by that
:27:28. > :27:32.legal agreement. Iran for the moment is claiming that those
:27:32. > :27:37.allegations are not true. In reality, probably some of those
:27:37. > :27:40.allegations are true. But Iran does not want to make an avowal until it
:27:40. > :27:44.is given some reason to be confident that if it makes an
:27:44. > :27:49.avowal, it will not be incriminating itself. Only the week
:27:49. > :27:53.before last, the agency went into Iran and were forbidden to visit
:27:53. > :27:58.certain sides. They asked to visit the site which they are not
:27:58. > :28:03.entitled to visit. I think they should be allowed to go there and I
:28:03. > :28:08.am confident that Iran will allow them to. It is a military site. It
:28:08. > :28:12.is not on area with nuclear material. I am glad that you know
:28:12. > :28:16.that! Well, I do know that. But the agency has not had the opportunity
:28:16. > :28:21.to find that out because they are not being allowed to visit by the
:28:22. > :28:25.regime. The idea that the regime in Iran is rational. Not talking about
:28:25. > :28:30.Ahmadinejad at the moment. The Supreme Leader has repeatedly
:28:30. > :28:37.called for the eradication, the annihilation is the turn he uses,
:28:37. > :28:44.of a UN member state. Israel. No other country in the world is led
:28:44. > :28:48.by a leadership that continually calls for the eradication, the
:28:48. > :28:52.annihilation, of our whole people. Most Middle East dictated in the
:28:52. > :28:59.Arab world say things like that. The Liberal Democrat peer was
:28:59. > :29:05.thrown out of the party this week for saying something like that.
:29:05. > :29:10.you want her to have nuclear weapons?! A new twist to the
:29:10. > :29:13.coalition! They don't have nuclear weapons. What we have outlined
:29:13. > :29:18.before is that most people in the Middle East feels that Israel
:29:18. > :29:22.cannot last in its current configuration. There will be a one
:29:22. > :29:27.state solution. They will live together. Peter Douglas, then we
:29:27. > :29:30.will come back to you. This kind of rhetoric, calling for the
:29:30. > :29:39.elimination not of the state of Israel but the current regime that
:29:39. > :29:44.governs it, then... What is the difference? Let me finish my point.
:29:44. > :29:49.Iran's leaders have been doing this since 1980 but for 12 years between
:29:49. > :29:57.1980 and 1992, Israel's leaders were trying to have an alliance
:29:57. > :30:02.with Iran. So for 12 years, Israel's leaders were not the least
:30:02. > :30:10.bit disturbed by that rhetoric. It is only since 1992 that they have
:30:10. > :30:13.chosen to fight that rhetoric It is extraordinary to claim that
:30:14. > :30:23.it is the fault of the Israelis when a neighbouring state denies
:30:23. > :30:27.that the horror cursed -- Holocaust occurred, and then to have the
:30:27. > :30:31.leadership of that state call for the eradication of the people who
:30:31. > :30:34.are the descendants of the survivors of that Holocaust, and
:30:34. > :30:39.for that state, while doing these things, to be disobeying all
:30:39. > :30:42.international obligations and to be, in the eyes of many people,
:30:42. > :30:46.pursuing a weapon eyes to nuclear capability. It is extraordinary,
:30:46. > :30:52.when those things are going on, that anyone would think it is
:30:52. > :30:56.Israel's fault for misreading Iran. On many TV channels, we know that
:30:56. > :31:01.you are playing with language. It is widely cited that there is this
:31:01. > :31:05.eradication debate. It is you who is playing with language. We are
:31:05. > :31:15.BBC One, a channel where the chairman of the board of governors
:31:15. > :31:24.was fired during the Iraq war. We are getting into another war.
:31:24. > :31:28.are referring to Ofcom rules. wanted press TV to pay a fine of
:31:28. > :31:34.�100, which they refused to pay, so there were real seasons for the
:31:34. > :31:39.banning. Let's not get into that debate. Benjamin Zephaniah. But we
:31:39. > :31:43.say something for the Common woman and the common man here. I missed
:31:43. > :31:48.one moment, in a sense. When you started talking, you started saying
:31:48. > :31:52.as a fact all these bad things about Iran. When Nicky mentioned
:31:52. > :31:57.the assassinations of Iranians, he said, -- you said, that may not
:31:57. > :32:03.have happened. You miss her bad. I said it would be unwise to think
:32:03. > :32:10.that we know who is doing that. you know all this other negative
:32:10. > :32:15.stuff about Iran. Other people in the region may have an interest in
:32:16. > :32:19.doing that. I said it would be unwise to assume. All I would say
:32:19. > :32:24.to Britain is to speak to people who have lived and worked in Iran.
:32:24. > :32:28.I have never met this man in my life, but he sounds reasonable. He
:32:28. > :32:33.understands the place. I have met an ambassador, and they give me a
:32:33. > :32:41.completely different view from the view you give me. I have met
:32:41. > :32:47.Iranian punks stand Rastafarians. I saw the map last night of all the
:32:47. > :32:57.American bases around Iran. Hundreds of them, looking at Iran,
:32:57. > :32:58.
:32:58. > :33:05.and Iran is a threat to us? Diana, what is the regime like the human
:33:06. > :33:12.rights? That was exactly my point. Iran is a threat to whom? Iran is
:33:12. > :33:17.most threatening its own people within the country. It violates
:33:17. > :33:26.human rights, it discriminates against women. There is a part by
:33:26. > :33:30.gender and sex for separation. They execute political activists. It is
:33:30. > :33:35.violating human rights within the country. Is it a threat to the
:33:35. > :33:40.region? But Iran never attacked any countries around the world during
:33:40. > :33:46.the last hundred years. Unfortunately, nuclear weapons are
:33:46. > :33:55.in the hands of many irresponsible people around the world, including
:33:55. > :34:00.Iran and many other countries. Haras Rafiq, you are worried by a
:34:00. > :34:05.religious aspect? President Ahmadinejad so has a particular
:34:05. > :34:09.strain of Shia Islam which believes that the end times are imminent. If
:34:09. > :34:13.you have somebody who believes that, you believe that if you join the
:34:13. > :34:17.dots with a nuclear weapon, there is a problem. We have to make the
:34:17. > :34:20.caveat that some people who want to be the next President of the United
:34:20. > :34:26.States quite also want the end times to be promised, but is this a
:34:26. > :34:30.worry for you? It is not just the Shia people, but there are many
:34:30. > :34:37.sects within Islam that think we are in the end times. President
:34:37. > :34:41.Ahmadinejad is a member of the Shia religion. Yes. What worries me is
:34:41. > :34:49.that if Iran gets nuclear-weapons, Saudi Arabia and Bahrain and
:34:49. > :34:59.everybody else will want them. Pakistan has got them. Pakistan is
:34:59. > :35:03.a problem. But Israel has got them. Apparently present can many has
:35:03. > :35:07.said nuclear-weapons are not Islamic -- Ayatollah Khamenei has
:35:07. > :35:11.said they are not Islamic. Does that we are sure you? I don't know.
:35:11. > :35:16.What happens in the future? Anything could happen in Pakistan
:35:16. > :35:19.at this moment in time. They have nuclear weapons. We have extremism
:35:19. > :35:26.and terrorism running through Pakistan. If those nuclear weapons
:35:26. > :35:31.get into the hands of those people, we have a problem. There is no
:35:31. > :35:40.meaningful dialogue with the Iranian regime. All three of you
:35:40. > :35:50.are warmongering. Ahead of a war. These kind of statements are part
:35:50. > :35:52.
:35:52. > :35:57.of this general media drift towards war which we saw in 2003. On the
:35:57. > :36:02.domino effect, you need to bear in mind that countries like Saudi
:36:02. > :36:06.Arabia and all Iran's neighbours are also parties to the Non-
:36:06. > :36:10.Proliferation regime. If they were to start manufacturing nuclear
:36:10. > :36:14.weapons, there would be in breach of the international community --
:36:14. > :36:18.commitments. How would the US reacted that? Were Israel to attack
:36:19. > :36:23.around, it would be in very serious breach of the UN Charter. It would
:36:23. > :36:28.be an act of aggression. You are only allowed to attack another
:36:28. > :36:33.state out of self-defence. In the absence of any evidence that Iran
:36:33. > :36:36.is manufacturing nuclear-weapons... I like Iran and the Iranian people.
:36:36. > :36:43.If I liked their culture. There is a lot of history around the Persian
:36:43. > :36:47.culture. I do not want Israel to attack Iran. I want peace and
:36:47. > :36:51.stability in the region. Because what happens in the region has an
:36:51. > :37:00.impact elsewhere. Then who are the warmongers? In the Middle East? How
:37:00. > :37:04.long have we got? Fists we have dictators and regimes.
:37:04. > :37:11.Ahmadinejad a warmonger? He tries to be. Whether he is actually
:37:11. > :37:20.blowing hot air or not, I don't know. Yes? Anybody's extreme view,
:37:20. > :37:25.I do not understand the meaning of extreme this. -- extremeness. Islam
:37:25. > :37:30.does not kick -- tell anyone to kill anyone. They should not kill a
:37:30. > :37:34.fly, never mind a human being. It is only the evil people who are
:37:34. > :37:43.killing people. It is nothing to do with Islam. Islam is getting a bad
:37:43. > :37:48.name because of these evil people. I don't care where they are from.
:37:48. > :37:51.The problem is that it is not the Muslim community, it is the
:37:51. > :37:57.extremists who are to blame. They make all the changes in the world.
:37:57. > :38:04.One of the problems is Iran is the rule of the extremists. They have
:38:04. > :38:09.got power. In this country, we have got extremists. We are facing this
:38:09. > :38:16.problem even in small things. Like allowing a Sharia court to operate
:38:16. > :38:22.in the UK. All of those activities are linked. Steve is from a local
:38:22. > :38:28.church. You have been praying for somebody in Iran? Yes, a pastor has
:38:28. > :38:34.been held for a long time in Iran for leading a Christian church,
:38:34. > :38:39.which is illegal. This week, he was executed by the government of Iran.
:38:39. > :38:43.Today in church, we will be praying for the nation of Iran and for
:38:43. > :38:49.those who have suffered the loss because of this terrible travesty.
:38:49. > :38:52.Because of a man's faith, he can be put to death. A lot of the media
:38:52. > :38:59.were saying he was going to be executed and were erroneously
:38:59. > :39:04.reported. But it is Iranian people who are saying this. The idea that
:39:04. > :39:14.Christians and Jews are not allowed to practise in Iran is observed. If
:39:14. > :39:22.I can mention press TV again it's Sykes, the editors are Jewish says.
:39:22. > :39:28.The so is this man dead or not? has been reported. There are double
:39:28. > :39:33.standards here. In Iran, a woman was charged with adultery, and I
:39:33. > :39:38.understand she was killed. Stoned to death. There was outrage in this
:39:38. > :39:44.country. Around the same time in Saudi Arabia, a woman was beheaded
:39:44. > :39:52.because somebody said she put a curse on them and she was a witch.
:39:52. > :39:58.Not a word from Britain. Haras Rafiq? There was some noise about
:39:58. > :40:03.that. Not as much. David Cameron was shaking hands and hugging the
:40:03. > :40:07.Saudi Arabians. Douglas Murray, what about that issue of double
:40:07. > :40:13.standards? It is absurd to think that there is only one problem in
:40:13. > :40:19.the region. If you pick up any of these chords in the Middle East,
:40:19. > :40:24.they lead to major problems. Saudi Arabia pumps its Wahhabi propaganda
:40:24. > :40:28.around the world and has polluted a mainstream top of Islam to the
:40:28. > :40:32.terrible detriment of Muslims worldwide. And from Iran, you have
:40:32. > :40:37.seen this ideology which has funded terrorist groups around the region.
:40:37. > :40:44.It is absurd to think that there is only one problem or that because
:40:44. > :40:47.you have several problems, you should not deal with one.
:40:47. > :40:51.liberation movement is fighting for the voiceless in at least while
:40:51. > :40:55.Britain supports Saudi Arabia and arms the Zionists with their
:40:55. > :40:58.nuclear weapons. It was not a liberation movement that
:40:58. > :41:02.assassinated Rafiq Hariri. There is another serious problem in the
:41:02. > :41:07.region, the occupation of Palestinian land on the West Bank
:41:07. > :41:11.by the state of Israel. That is a debate we have had before and will
:41:11. > :41:15.no doubt have again. And it is connected to this one. But one last
:41:15. > :41:22.question, Douglas, about the meeting tomorrow between Benjamin
:41:23. > :41:27.Netanyahu and President Obama. gather the speech President Obama
:41:27. > :41:30.is giving tonight, he will stress that America will not allow Iran to
:41:30. > :41:35.become a new theorised state and they will stop it from being so
:41:35. > :41:40.before it can declare its nuclear success. I think that will, to some
:41:40. > :41:47.extent, dampen fears in the region, because it will mean the Israelis
:41:47. > :41:50.will not feel they have to do this alone. It is nothing -- the
:41:50. > :42:00.president Obama will realise the Iranians are trying to do what they
:42:00. > :42:00.
:42:00. > :42:05.For you can continue the discussion online.
:42:05. > :42:10.Send us your views about our last big question - should we listen to
:42:10. > :42:13.the angels? If you'd like to be in the audience at a future show, you
:42:13. > :42:17.can e-mail audiencetbq@mentorn.tv. We will be back next week with a
:42:18. > :42:21.special edition asking just one very big question: is
:42:21. > :42:27.fundamentalism undermining faith? Then we will be in Leicester on the
:42:27. > :42:33.18th, and Birmingham the week after that.
:42:33. > :42:39.You may think you can say about 60 or 70 people around me, who are all
:42:40. > :42:44.getting on tremendously well. But one of our guests, the author Lorna
:42:44. > :42:49.Byrne, can see many more beings than that. She says everyone here
:42:49. > :42:54.is accompanied by an angel. We are just not prepared to listen to them.
:42:54. > :42:59.Should we listen to the angels? Welcome to the programme. Your book
:42:59. > :43:04.has been tremendously successful. It was a Sunday Times bestseller.
:43:04. > :43:11.You have lectured all around the world. If what can you see right
:43:11. > :43:16.now? I suppose one thing to tell you or, I see the wonderful
:43:16. > :43:20.audience here. But as well, I see your guardian angel physically
:43:20. > :43:24.behind each and every one of you. It doesn't matter what religion or
:43:24. > :43:28.what nationality you are or whether you believe or not. Even if you say
:43:28. > :43:38.you don't believe in God, you have a guardian angel that God has given
:43:38. > :43:42.
:43:42. > :43:48.you as a gift for. To me, the message is for people to be kinder
:43:48. > :43:54.to each other and nicer. I hear from so many young people,
:43:54. > :44:03.especially young men, saying that now they realise they have a
:44:03. > :44:08.guardian angel. Which is no bad thing. So there are guardian angels
:44:08. > :44:12.and other Rangers as well? Yes, I see other angels as well. I am
:44:12. > :44:17.looking at the audience so that I will not be distracted too much.
:44:17. > :44:23.I have a guardian angel? You have a beautiful guardian angel. Not my
:44:23. > :44:30.editor in my hippies? No. What does my guardian angel look like? Your
:44:30. > :44:33.guardian angel is of a male appearance. Only four guardian
:44:33. > :44:41.angels have a human appearance. They may be male or female, but
:44:41. > :44:46.they do that for us. Are they be? Yes. As Douglas have a guardian
:44:46. > :44:52.angel? Douglas does have a guardian angel. I know he does not believe,
:44:52. > :44:56.but that does not matter. Does his guardian angel look happy?
:44:56. > :45:01.guardian angel is looking down on him and is quite contented with him.
:45:01. > :45:06.You have to remember, I have never seen any guardian angel being
:45:06. > :45:10.annoyed with us. They seem to Never Give Up On Us. They keep
:45:10. > :45:16.encouraging us. You must remember that your guardian angel, would you
:45:16. > :45:20.believe in God or not, is a gift from God to guide you through your
:45:21. > :45:25.life. Your guardian angel will never overstepped the boundaries of
:45:25. > :45:30.your free will. I see them talking to people. How do we get that
:45:30. > :45:39.guidance? We do we hear them. But a lot of the time, I'm afraid we
:45:39. > :45:49.don't listen. We kind of half hitter side. But today, everybody
:45:49. > :45:50.
:45:50. > :45:56.is talking about wonderful subjects. You have seen an angel. Tell me
:45:56. > :46:00.about it. I more than one occasion, yes. When my second daughter was
:46:00. > :46:05.born, my wife had had a difficult pregnancy the first time, and we
:46:05. > :46:10.were praying that she would have a short Labour, only gas and air, and
:46:10. > :46:14.that it would just last four hours, a normal delivery. The midwife came
:46:14. > :46:18.into the room and said that we needed to be thinking about 24
:46:18. > :46:22.hours for the Labour. I want you to ask for an epidural and we will
:46:22. > :46:29.have the forceps ready. We had been praying for nine months a different
:46:29. > :46:33.way. We just prayed to the Lord, what was this about? At that very
:46:33. > :46:41.second, issued person appeared in the room. I was not looking for an
:46:41. > :46:45.angel. -- a huge person appeared. He was 10 ft tall, no wings, looked
:46:45. > :46:48.masculine. Wearing something like armour. He stood at the foot of the
:46:48. > :46:53.bed that my wife was in with his hands laid out and the booming
:46:53. > :46:57.voice filled the room, saying that this angel has awaited his charge
:46:57. > :47:02.since the dawn of time. I suppose it was at that moment that I
:47:02. > :47:10.started to believe in guardian angels. And you saw one on the M62
:47:10. > :47:16.as well. Yes, when I was quite young, 19 or 20. 1920? You don't
:47:16. > :47:21.look that old! 19 or 20! I was a young driver. I was not very
:47:21. > :47:24.confident and I hit some mist and fog. It was the worst I had ever
:47:25. > :47:29.seen and I did not know what to do so I stopped the car. I saw a
:47:29. > :47:33.figure running past me. I thought what is that? He was running,
:47:33. > :47:40.wearing shorts and a T-shirt, running along and 62 in the fog,
:47:40. > :47:44.and it seemed very dangerous. -- along the M62. I wanted to know
:47:44. > :47:48.where he was and so I drove the car slowly forward and caught a glimpse
:47:48. > :47:52.of him in front of me. He started walking. I thought that I could not
:47:52. > :47:57.hit anything if he walked in front of me so I drove at his speed.
:47:57. > :48:01.Except he ended up running at about 50 mph. The thing that shocked me
:48:01. > :48:06.was when I drove out of the fog bank, there was nobody in front of
:48:06. > :48:11.me. Until that moment in time I had not thought it was an angel. Lots
:48:11. > :48:16.of people have an experience like that, of seeing angels. I think
:48:16. > :48:21.that is very wonderful. The message of the angels is being spread
:48:21. > :48:25.around the world because they are giving so many messages. What is
:48:25. > :48:30.their message? They have told you about various scenarios, haven't
:48:30. > :48:36.they? A couple of those scenarios are too frightening for you to tell
:48:36. > :48:44.us about, I know. Yes, I would not like those futures. We were talking
:48:44. > :48:48.about Iran a few minutes ago and one of the messages from the way --
:48:48. > :48:58.from the angels is that war is easy to make MPs is the hardest thing to
:48:58. > :49:00.
:49:00. > :49:07.keep and we must keep on talking. - keeping the peace is the hardest
:49:07. > :49:14.thing. Peter is applauding! I do agree in Luke Skywalker as well as
:49:14. > :49:17.the angels, let's put it that way. The angels announced the birth and
:49:17. > :49:24.resurrection of Jesus and they always want us to direct us to
:49:24. > :49:31.Jesus, I believe. Even along the M62? Yeah so! Do you believe in
:49:31. > :49:34.angels? You are the Catholic. brought up to believe in guardian
:49:34. > :49:39.angels but when I reached the age of reason I became more sceptical
:49:39. > :49:43.about that Catholic doctrine. I had black ice and 60 miles an hour on
:49:43. > :49:47.the M4, skidded out of control and bounce like a pinball between the
:49:47. > :49:54.barriers on either side. The car was totally written off and yet I
:49:54. > :49:58.emerged intact, as you can sue. I did not see an angel, but my first
:49:58. > :50:04.thought was... That sounds like an assassination attempt by the
:50:04. > :50:09.Israelis! For conspiracy theories! My first thought was maybe I'd do
:50:09. > :50:12.have a guardian angel after all. When you listen to these stories
:50:13. > :50:19.about guardian angels, if you take away the religious aspect, they
:50:19. > :50:23.would be in mental homes. I used to know the editor of a newspaper and
:50:23. > :50:27.he used to come out of his room and say that he had just finished
:50:27. > :50:30.talking to Bob Marley. He would have these conversations with Bob
:50:30. > :50:35.Marley and everybody thought that he was mad. Because it is religious
:50:35. > :50:40.you think it is all right to call them angels. I am not criticising,
:50:40. > :50:44.I am just saying it is the state of our society. If somebody is not
:50:44. > :50:49.religious, and they hear voices and they see people, they go into a
:50:49. > :50:53.mental institution. But if I say that those people are sent from God,
:50:53. > :50:55.and it is religious, I am just commenting, for me, what this lady
:50:55. > :51:00.is saying is harmless. I'm interested in near-death
:51:00. > :51:03.experiences. Everybody that has had a near-death experience says that
:51:03. > :51:07.there is a God and something else, but it has nothing to do with
:51:07. > :51:12.religion. Nothing to do with the way you dress, what you eat, but
:51:12. > :51:19.there is something greater than us. And it is the same, whatever
:51:19. > :51:24.country you are in. Go on? Before I come to you, let's just establish
:51:24. > :51:33.this. We have a wide shot of the audience. And everybody else. Put
:51:33. > :51:39.up your hands if you believe in angels. Has anybody else seen an
:51:39. > :51:46.angel, in the audience? I have seen fairies. Some people will find this
:51:46. > :51:50.difficult. You were going to come back then. It does not matter to me
:51:50. > :51:55.whether people ridicule it. I see them physically and I have since
:51:55. > :51:59.the moment I was born, every day. I know it is hard for people out
:51:59. > :52:04.there in the world that can't see angels physically. I know that they
:52:04. > :52:08.are real, normal and natural. I know everybody has a soul and God
:52:08. > :52:13.is real. To me the most fascinating thing is that IOC angels physically
:52:13. > :52:22.with everyone and it does not matter of what religion they are. -
:52:22. > :52:26.- by sue I see angels. From a Muslim perspective there is the
:52:26. > :52:31.dogma of faith and spirituality as well. We believe that there are at
:52:31. > :52:33.least two angels with you at all times, one on the right and one on
:52:33. > :52:39.the left. The one on the right actually writes down when you have
:52:39. > :52:46.a good intention and when you do it, they write it down again. Do you
:52:46. > :52:52.see two or one? I only ever see one guardian angel. You are wrong!
:52:52. > :52:55.see a minimum of two. That is fine. The point that she is making is
:52:55. > :53:02.very important. It does not matter from my perspective whether
:53:02. > :53:09.somebody is somebody of fate, or not. They are still created by one
:53:09. > :53:14.God. -- is somebody of faith. The creation of the angels, the Sol,
:53:14. > :53:18.the spirit, it is irrelevant of what faith you are. There is free
:53:18. > :53:25.will and we can decide what to do. What do you make of this, as an
:53:25. > :53:34.atheist? I think it is a good idea for a book. That is why your book
:53:34. > :53:39.is on the bestseller list and wine is not! -- mind is not! I could not
:53:39. > :53:44.read or write. I am dyslexic. I cannot even say the word properly!
:53:44. > :53:52.As a child, the angels would say that I would write about them and
:53:52. > :53:59.God and I took no notice. When I was married one of my children told
:53:59. > :54:05.me it was time to write. I could not understand how God expected me
:54:05. > :54:09.to write a book when I was almost incapable of reading and writing.
:54:09. > :54:18.He said that help would be sent and somebody did come along and buy me
:54:18. > :54:21.a dictaphone. What do you think? seems to me, to an extent, whether
:54:22. > :54:26.you believe that this is the case or not, that it is dangerous to
:54:26. > :54:32.take advantage of the credulous and people's real fears. People have a
:54:32. > :54:37.real fear of death, for instance. What do you see in it? P pulled do
:54:37. > :54:41.have a real fear of death and they always will. -- people do have. If
:54:41. > :54:44.you tell people they are looked after, it makes them feel better.
:54:44. > :54:48.So people that believe in reason are always at a disadvantage
:54:48. > :54:52.because we do not have fairy-tales and we cannot take advantage of the
:54:52. > :54:58.credulous. We cannot claim that angels say banal things in our
:54:58. > :55:02.spare time. Not only that. The story gives a lot of comfort to
:55:02. > :55:07.some people, but I always bigger but those people that do not have
:55:07. > :55:12.those experiences. I mean, I believe in angels but... What do
:55:12. > :55:15.you mean? On the M62? You listen to these experiences and you have to
:55:15. > :55:19.think they can be interpreted otherwise but I worry about those
:55:19. > :55:24.that do not have that. If he had died that evening he would not be
:55:24. > :55:27.saying anything about angels. Lots of people just die on the motorway.
:55:27. > :55:32.And they did not say that the guardian angel let them down.
:55:32. > :55:36.is the point. For every child rescued there are so many others.
:55:36. > :55:40.People love lives of quiet desperation. I wish that we all had
:55:40. > :55:48.an angel that can speak and top. Badgered is multiculturalism debate,
:55:48. > :55:52.we are worried about living isolated lives of quiet desperation.
:55:52. > :55:55.-- back to this multiculturalism debate. It is not about spirit. It
:55:55. > :56:01.is about us getting involved and becoming the Messenger, the angel,
:56:01. > :56:06.to help other people. Do you believe that angels can speak to
:56:06. > :56:11.us? As Hindus we do not believe in angels. It is fascinating what has
:56:11. > :56:14.been said about seeing angels and communicating them and with God. I
:56:14. > :56:19.would be interested to know whether these angels were their thousands
:56:19. > :56:25.of years ago at the time of Lord Krishna. Can they tell us that?
:56:25. > :56:29.believe so. So they were serving Lord Krishna as angels? That is the
:56:29. > :56:34.thing, icy everyone with a guardian angel. I see angels with everybody.
:56:34. > :56:38.It does not matter. I know that the other man was saying that when
:56:38. > :56:44.somebody is killed in a crash, where is the angel, but you have to
:56:44. > :56:51.remember that the guardian angel is there. When we are born, we are
:56:51. > :56:54.born to live but we have to die, too. We had a bit of a
:56:54. > :56:58.confrontation earlier on, which Benjamin felt very uncomfortable
:56:58. > :57:06.with. The gentleman there said something disobliging and Benton
:57:06. > :57:12.and felt offended by it. -- Benjamin. What is guarded angels be
:57:13. > :57:21.conferring on that incident? -- are of their guardian angels
:57:21. > :57:29.conferring? No. I do not see guardian angels constantly speaking
:57:29. > :57:34.to each other. He will never call a black man sunshine again. Seriously.
:57:34. > :57:41.There are people that see other people, dead relatives. Do you know
:57:41. > :57:46.about this? Do you see that as well? On occasions, God allows me
:57:46. > :57:51.to see a soul, yes. Before my husband died, when he was very ill,
:57:51. > :57:56.I saw his soul, out of his body. I felt very privileged to see that.
:57:56. > :58:02.Some people can see their dead grandfather and relatives. I only
:58:02. > :58:09.see the angels. I did see an angel ones. It was in a nightclub in
:58:09. > :58:13.Birmingham but she was married! idea of us being the messengers of
:58:13. > :58:16.God is really important. The good news, which angels are supposed to
:58:16. > :58:21.announce, has got to be that we can be the answer to a lot of people's
:58:21. > :58:25.needs. Thank you very much and have a good sermon this afternoon. We