:00:26. > :00:29.Questions, live from King Edward VI Handsworth School in Birmingham. I'm
:00:30. > :00:33.Nicky Campbell. It took more than a century of argument, but now British
:00:33. > :00:37.women have the right to be educated, to marry the man of their choosing,
:00:37. > :00:42.the right to own their own property, to borrow, to manage their own
:00:42. > :00:45.money, to vote on the right to work at whatever profession they choose.
:00:45. > :00:55.Women can be Queens, prime ministers, they can win prizes for
:00:55. > :01:13.
:01:13. > :01:16.science and Olympic medals for boxing, but they can still be a
:01:16. > :01:19.bishop or Catholic priest or need men in prayer in a mosque or an
:01:19. > :01:21.orthodox synagogue. So this morning, we are asking one big question - are
:01:21. > :01:22.religions unfair to women? To debate this, we have distinguished
:01:22. > :01:25.theologians and writers, campaigners and converts, believers and
:01:25. > :01:27.apostates from four faiths. And they will be encouraged I our lively
:01:27. > :01:30.Birmingham audience. You can also join me by Twitter macro. Last
:01:30. > :01:40.month, the Dalai Lama said he would be pleased if his successor were to
:01:40. > :01:42.
:01:42. > :01:49.be female. Now we are compassion. Well, it might happen in Tibet, but
:01:49. > :01:59.we are a long way from Archbishop of Canterbury or chief rabbi in
:01:59. > :02:02.
:02:03. > :02:07.Britain. Our religion is unfair, theologian looking at the
:02:07. > :02:13.Scriptures, how do they portray women in general? Has there been a
:02:13. > :02:20.bit of cutting and pasting by men? Not really. The way in which women
:02:20. > :02:23.tend to be portrayed the Scriptures, both Hebrew Old Testament and new,
:02:23. > :02:29.women are defined in terms of their relationship to men, whether they
:02:29. > :02:33.are a wife, mother, sister or daughter. That is always the way
:02:33. > :02:36.women are defined. Women are not the main targets of the Scriptures
:02:36. > :02:43.anyway. The Scriptures were not written for women, they were written
:02:43. > :02:51.by men for men about their male God. So ignored, basically? They are baby
:02:51. > :02:54.machines. They are celebrated in terms of bringing in new life and
:02:54. > :02:58.perpetuating the generations. is probably only one biblical book
:02:58. > :03:03.that celebrates what it is to be a woman and a sexual being, and that
:03:03. > :03:07.is the Song of Songs, but even that text is written from the point of
:03:07. > :03:14.view of a male writer and a voyeur's days, looking at this sexy
:03:14. > :03:19.woman. Quite erotic. When I say cutting and pasting, has some of it
:03:19. > :03:26.been interpreted within patriarchal societies to be even more male
:03:27. > :03:30.orientated? Some argue that we have conflicted views on what women
:03:30. > :03:35.should be doing in Christianity. Some say that according to the
:03:35. > :03:40.Gospels, Jesus was quite pro-women. He had women followers. Some of the
:03:40. > :03:44.earliest church leaders were wealthy women. On the other hand, in some of
:03:44. > :03:48.the writing of Saint Paul, he is not keen on women. Women should not talk
:03:48. > :03:53.in church, they should cover their heads, they are secondary to their
:03:54. > :04:00.husbands. " I do not permit a woman to teach a man. She must be silent".
:04:00. > :04:03.You have broken that already! would not like me much anyway.
:04:04. > :04:09.Wives, submit to your husbands, and all that stuff in Leviticus about
:04:09. > :04:19.women being unclean. Do you just skip those bits? Not at all. We
:04:19. > :04:20.
:04:20. > :04:26.can't skip bits, but when they were written and who it was mainly
:04:26. > :04:29.written by men for men so we have to use the understanding we have now.
:04:29. > :04:34.Since everything in the Bible, both the Old Testament and New Testament
:04:34. > :04:38.were written, we have had the Enlightenment. We now understand
:04:38. > :04:44.reproduction in a different way. So the taboo laws in Leviticus, talking
:04:44. > :04:48.about how women had to be separate and were literally seen as unclean
:04:48. > :04:55.when they were menstruating and after giving birth, even though the
:04:56. > :04:59.vestiges of that carry on... Do you not find that offensive? Know, those
:04:59. > :05:04.are the texts, that is the understanding that people had then,
:05:04. > :05:10.and we don't know it all now. But we know enough to make the changes that
:05:10. > :05:15.we can. Paul wrote as a good Jewish man in first century Palestine. If
:05:15. > :05:21.he were alive today, he was passionate about helping people
:05:21. > :05:26.understand who Jesus was, who he saw as the Messiah. He would be
:05:26. > :05:29.different now? If he were here today, he would be scolding the
:05:29. > :05:35.Church of England, my beloved church, that still discriminates
:05:35. > :05:39.against women. He would be saying, we don't see women in the way we
:05:39. > :05:44.used to see women any more, as the property of their fathers or
:05:44. > :05:52.husbands. Allow women to be bishops. Do you think Paul would be saying
:05:52. > :05:57.all that? I don't think he would. There was no sense of two genders in
:05:57. > :06:03.the ancient world. In ancient Jewish and Christian societies, women were
:06:03. > :06:10.seen as a deviant form of a man. All would find that hard to let go of.
:06:10. > :06:20.But there were two macro sides of Paul. He was doing the best he could
:06:20. > :06:23.
:06:23. > :06:33.with his understanding. Anyone who was baptised into Christ, all the
:06:33. > :06:37.
:06:37. > :06:45.old barriers came down. Liz, tell us about Eve. Whether you take it as
:06:45. > :06:52.little or figurative, Eve was the first woman. And she was created to
:06:52. > :06:58.be Adam's helper. It says clearly in Genesis that both male and female
:06:58. > :07:08.were created in the image of God. Genesis one or Genesis to? These
:07:08. > :07:12.
:07:12. > :07:18.people know better than I! She was a helper, which is equal. Eve was
:07:18. > :07:21.taken from Adam's rib, which is from the side, not from the head or from
:07:21. > :07:28.the feet, so not a rule be oppressed, but from the side, to be
:07:28. > :07:34.an equal partner in life. Eve was Adam's partner, but God also did say
:07:34. > :07:38.that Adam was first and Eve was to be his helper. And in the fall,
:07:38. > :07:42.which was when sin entered the world, that was turned on its head.
:07:42. > :07:47.It was meant to be God ruling people and people ruling creation. And in
:07:47. > :07:53.the fall, you have the serpent tempting and leading Eve, the woman,
:07:53. > :07:59.a straight, and then her leaving her husband. So it was her fault? No,
:07:59. > :08:06.Adam should have said no. He chose to follow Eve, and in so doing, he
:08:06. > :08:16.said, I know better than God. Unfortunately, that is what you are
:08:16. > :08:20.saying. And if women do become leaders in the church, you think
:08:20. > :08:27.there are problems? There are potential problems. Particularly on
:08:27. > :08:33.the issue of bishops. The Church of England is doing its best to be
:08:33. > :08:38.inclusive, to avoid division. is a secondary issue. I am not
:08:38. > :08:44.saying people who disagree are not Christians, but as a layperson, I
:08:44. > :08:49.can choose to go to a church with a male vicar or a female vicar. I have
:08:49. > :08:54.that freedom of choice. If you are a male vicar who has doctrinal reasons
:08:54. > :08:58.why you are not happy to have a woman in leadership over you because
:08:58. > :09:04.you believe those teachings, that is where the problem comes. So you
:09:04. > :09:09.believe as God is head of Christ, so man is head of woman. What about a
:09:10. > :09:16.woman prime minister? There is no prohibition, because the Bible only
:09:16. > :09:20.refers to marriage and church. that could be a problem, because you
:09:20. > :09:23.have to ask about the dynamic of that relationship with her husband.
:09:23. > :09:32.When she goes home, if she had been ruling the country, is her husband
:09:32. > :09:42.still had of the marriage? This is where it falls to bits. We have six
:09:42. > :09:42.
:09:43. > :09:50.angry people over here. We have got plenty of time. There are political
:09:50. > :09:54.Muslim leaders in Bangladesh. Women have two X chromosomes on the Y
:09:54. > :09:59.chromosome is a mutation. If only they had known that, they might have
:09:59. > :10:05.written a different story. In the womb, they are all female and they
:10:05. > :10:09.become male. Talking about Prime Minister's, the obvious thing to say
:10:09. > :10:12.is that we have just lost Lady Thatcher. I would love to have seen
:10:12. > :10:19.you argue with her that she was not supposed to be in a position of
:10:19. > :10:24.leadership. I did not say that. when Lady Thatcher got home, there
:10:24. > :10:27.might have been problems? There is no problem. I have no problem with
:10:27. > :10:32.women holding positions of responsibility at any level, I am
:10:32. > :10:36.just saying it might cause tensions. If it doesn't for her, relate. When
:10:36. > :10:40.she went to speak to the Church of Scotland, as somebody who had been
:10:40. > :10:45.raised a Methodist, you would have said sorry, prime minister, you
:10:45. > :10:48.cannot interest the Church of Scotland because you are woman?
:10:48. > :10:53.don't know what happened at that meeting. We are talking about
:10:53. > :11:01.teaching the word of God. Your interpretation. It is about church
:11:01. > :11:04.and marriage, that is what the Bible talks about. I would say your
:11:04. > :11:08.interpretation of male and female roles really under cells what the
:11:08. > :11:13.resurrection of Jesus Christ accomplished. My view is much bigger
:11:13. > :11:17.than the view you are selling. I am a fan of the verse, and I want to
:11:17. > :11:23.ask you your interpretation of this. It says there is neither male nor
:11:23. > :11:26.female, Greek nor June, slave nor free. The resurrection of Jesus has
:11:26. > :11:31.done away with these divisions. So I would look at the divisions you are
:11:31. > :11:35.putting up and say the resurrection is not enough to cancel out those
:11:35. > :11:41.barriers, then what has it accomplished? It is a great verse to
:11:41. > :11:46.bring up, but you are twisting its meaning. There is neither male nor
:11:46. > :11:50.female, slave nor free. That is not the first time I have heard that
:11:50. > :11:57.phrase, you are twisting its meaning. That passage is talking
:11:57. > :12:07.about salvation. In Jesus's resurrection, every person is
:12:07. > :12:10.
:12:10. > :12:20.equally saved. That does not mean we are no longer different. Is there
:12:20. > :12:20.
:12:20. > :12:26.headship in heaven? I don't know. Headship does not appear in the
:12:26. > :12:30.Bible. There is no word headship in the Bible. It is not there. It is an
:12:30. > :12:37.accretion put on by Paul using the word head. There is a biblical
:12:37. > :12:41.expert beside you. It has ambiguous meanings. We don't know what it
:12:42. > :12:45.meant. Paul was trying to have order. He even said himself that
:12:45. > :12:50.there are some things that he appeals to nature about, like men
:12:50. > :12:53.having short hair and women having long hair and things like that. He
:12:53. > :13:03.always finished those passages by saying nevertheless, I said to you,
:13:03. > :13:06.
:13:06. > :13:09.in Christ, you are both equal. drawing on the idea that in the Old
:13:09. > :13:13.Testament, idolaters and rebellious Israelites were the adulterous wife
:13:13. > :13:18.of God. In the new Testament, writers are drawing on that Old
:13:18. > :13:24.Testament image and transferring it to say that the Church is the wife
:13:24. > :13:31.of God. And it has to be obedient. It is all about obedience. Saint
:13:31. > :13:41.Thomas Aquinas said after Eve that women were in some way defective.
:13:41. > :13:42.
:13:42. > :13:47.Let me bring the rabbi in. You are shaking my hand, but you would not
:13:47. > :13:51.shake our female research's hand this morning. Why not? We don't have
:13:51. > :13:57.a problem with separate roles. There is such a thing called
:13:57. > :14:02.collaborative. But she put her hand out to shake your hand and you would
:14:02. > :14:08.not. It is not something I do. Why not? Because I don't touch things
:14:08. > :14:12.that don't belong to me. That doesn't belong to you. Nicky doesn't
:14:12. > :14:19.belong to you! It is something I was taught from a young age. Do I belong
:14:19. > :14:29.to you? I respect a woman, and as such, I will not touch her. Then you
:14:29. > :14:30.
:14:30. > :14:35.don't respect Nicky? I don't have an issue. I don't have a problem
:14:35. > :14:42.shaking a man's and will stop shaking a woman's hand to be
:14:42. > :14:46.misconstrued. Misconstrued? Who is doing the interview here? It could
:14:46. > :14:52.be taken as an affront. She might take it as an affront that you
:14:52. > :14:54.didn't want to shake her hand. I said that that is my sensitivity. Is
:14:54. > :15:04.it because she might be menstruating? Nothing to do with
:15:04. > :15:06.
:15:06. > :15:10.that. In other feasts, like Islam, the shaking of the hand is more to
:15:10. > :15:15.do with steps. So if you shook a woman's hand or mail's hand or vice
:15:15. > :15:20.versa, that is one step. So in Islam, it is about prevention. It is
:15:20. > :15:26.not shaking the hand, it is like having different rules. For example,
:15:26. > :15:29.if you don't have a particular reason to be in a room with a man if
:15:29. > :15:36.you are woman, you should not embrace men. These are different
:15:36. > :15:39.steps to prevent things from happening. We'll come to it later. I
:15:39. > :15:42.want to ask you, sir, about the prayer, Rabbi. Tell us about the
:15:42. > :15:51.prayer that Orthodox Jewish men say every morning. "Blessed be God, King
:15:51. > :15:56.of the Universe for Thou hast not made me a woman." Judaism presents a
:15:56. > :16:01.view of creation, Adam and Eve. Let's go back to that for a minute
:16:01. > :16:04.as a preamble to answer the question. When Adam was created, so
:16:04. > :16:10.was Eve, and according to many traditions they were actually joined
:16:10. > :16:14.back to back. They were then separated. So the clear Jewish
:16:14. > :16:17.traditional view of the roles of man and woman are as absolute equals.
:16:17. > :16:24.And as collaborative equals. Because when a man and a woman come
:16:24. > :16:34.together, then they become a whole. And that's the whole pattern which
:16:34. > :16:41.
:16:41. > :16:46.creates Jewish law and Jewish thought. So a man says I'm happy
:16:46. > :16:52.I've been created the way I am as a man, even though as a man it has its
:16:52. > :16:55.downside. A woman says I'm happy I've been created as a woman and,
:16:55. > :16:57.you know, to try and give a Hebrew Bible Jewish Christian nomenclature,
:16:57. > :17:07.the Old Testament view, of women being the underdogs, there were
:17:07. > :17:10.women prophetesses, there was a matriarch. If a woman has a boy
:17:10. > :17:20.child she is unclean for thirty three days. When she has a girl
:17:20. > :17:24.
:17:24. > :17:27.child she is unclean for sixty six days. Why is that? This is because
:17:27. > :17:34.you're dealing there - when you talk about unclean, it doesn't mean
:17:34. > :17:44.dirty. You are using a Hebrew word that has a context to it, the
:17:44. > :17:48.
:17:48. > :17:58.context is within temple time society. If, for example, you trod
:17:58. > :18:03.
:18:03. > :18:10.on a creepy crawly, you would become unclean. Why is it less so if you
:18:10. > :18:20.have a boy and more time if you have a girl? I don't know the answer to
:18:20. > :18:24.
:18:24. > :18:32.that. There is no other explanation whatsoever. Unclean means impure and
:18:32. > :18:35.I'm sure Francesca will know. sorry, you took that very
:18:35. > :18:37.categorically. I spend about maybe ten hours a day studying the
:18:37. > :18:46.sources. I'm very interested in the source. A categorical statement
:18:46. > :18:49.which clearly runs contrary to everything I understand. I spend the
:18:49. > :18:53.same amount of time in my reading of the Torah and understanding, how
:18:53. > :18:57.else is - when men and women commit sins it takes exactly twice as long
:18:57. > :19:00.for the woman to become pure and clean again than it does for the
:19:00. > :19:03.man. And Nicky talked about thirty three days after a boy child and
:19:03. > :19:06.then sixty - in Leviticus, don't look confused, it's in there.
:19:06. > :19:16.There's a wide variety of sins. about the double standards on
:19:16. > :19:31.
:19:31. > :19:34.apologistsblood -- on blood? There's a double standard in blood
:19:34. > :19:37.regulations in Torah and it's based on male and female, so when a woman
:19:37. > :19:45.gives birth to a male child, that male child is circumcised on the
:19:45. > :19:48.eighth day. The blood of the circumcised penis, male circumcision
:19:48. > :19:51.blood in a way hastens her impurity process so she's only impure for a
:19:51. > :19:54.short amount of time, 33 days Whereas if she had a female child,
:19:54. > :19:59.there's no penis to circumcise so therefore she stays impure for
:19:59. > :20:09.longer. That is a very particular construction placed on verses which
:20:09. > :20:13.
:20:13. > :20:18.are taken out of context. Nowadays, restrictions which applied to temple
:20:18. > :20:21.sacrifice don't apply any more. But circumcision does. So to try and
:20:21. > :20:28.draw a comparison between the blood of circumcision, which we don't make
:20:28. > :20:36.a great big deal out of... But you make a big deal out of Passover, it
:20:36. > :20:44.is picking and choosing. Nowadays there is no blood involved in
:20:44. > :20:50.sacrifice, so the comparison between circumcision and the laws...
:20:50. > :20:57.women being displaced while they are menstruating is a part of Judaism.
:20:57. > :21:04.Why do women have to be removed when they are menstruating? I wish I
:21:04. > :21:09.could be removed while I am menstruating! Some Samaritan men and
:21:09. > :21:14.women came over to do a concert in London, they have this singing
:21:14. > :21:19.tradition and when they start to sing it is incredible. They have
:21:19. > :21:26.very low divorce rates, because I was interested in what this ritual
:21:26. > :21:31.impurity means, I thought it might mean something helpful. They said
:21:31. > :21:38.when we are menstruating, we have a special flat, we stay there and read
:21:38. > :21:45.and pray, the men do everything. I had a view of this, I am going to
:21:45. > :21:55.ring a bell next month and stay out of the way. What do you make of
:21:55. > :21:57.
:21:57. > :22:01.this? I am genuinely appalled and horrified. Which bit?Everything. I
:22:01. > :22:05.cannot help thinking these deities should have written more clearly,
:22:05. > :22:11.and in the meanwhile if we look at the real world, there are thousands
:22:11. > :22:14.of women, millions of women around the world who are being denied the
:22:14. > :22:23.right to vote as a result of religion, being denied the right to
:22:23. > :22:27.leave the house and get the job they want, young girls having their
:22:27. > :22:31.clitoris removed, having their lives ruined and we are bickering about
:22:31. > :22:41.what the verses mean. Look at the real world, religion is incredibly
:22:41. > :22:43.
:22:43. > :22:53.damaging. I would go so far, not the whole way, religion is not doing
:22:53. > :22:55.
:22:55. > :23:00.that to women, men are. You are using that as an excuse. Let's look
:23:00. > :23:03.at this in the broadest context, this has been happening throughout
:23:03. > :23:10.history but we have to put it into that context and say not only
:23:10. > :23:15.religion is doing this. We already have enough men trying to keep women
:23:15. > :23:25.down in this world and yet you are supporting this. How can you do
:23:25. > :23:28.
:23:28. > :23:32.that? Before we move on, let's speak to our Muslim guest. It is not the
:23:32. > :23:35.fault of religion, it is the fault of those interpreting the religion
:23:35. > :23:45.so a clear distinction needs to be made and you need to understand
:23:45. > :23:58.
:23:58. > :24:01.that. The gentleman back there. are looking at Islam in the first
:24:01. > :24:11.century of Islam it was a woman. One of the biggest scholars of Islam was
:24:11. > :24:13.
:24:13. > :24:21.again a woman. The greatest woman in creation is Mary. You have given us
:24:21. > :24:26.mark a diversion, what do you mean? What is a human person? What is the
:24:26. > :24:36.greatest thing a human person can be? Is it a virgin and other
:24:36. > :24:56.
:24:56. > :24:59.question --?! That's a big question to ask. But the Catholic church
:24:59. > :25:01.would say in profound communion with God and therefore in profound
:25:01. > :25:05.communion with each other, and in profound communion with creation and
:25:05. > :25:15.using all their talents for love. Now the Virgin Mary is the greatest
:25:15. > :25:18.
:25:18. > :25:22.woman in creation because she listened to God. She's pure? Pious?
:25:22. > :25:26.She's obedient, totally. She was open to receiving the gift that she
:25:26. > :25:33.was given, and when we respond to the gift given us that God gives us
:25:33. > :25:36.we grow as people. You did some nice cutting and pasting before and I
:25:36. > :25:39.wanted to add to your queries about women must submit to their husbands.
:25:39. > :25:49.Straight after, it says husbands must submit to their wives in
:25:49. > :25:58.
:25:58. > :26:06.Christ, the bigger picture... Sexually? No, that's not at all what
:26:06. > :26:10.it means. Why do I know that? Because when a husband submits to
:26:10. > :26:13.his wife, he has to behave, as it says in The Bible, as Christ behaves
:26:13. > :26:16.towards the Church. Laying down his life is a beautiful word to describe
:26:16. > :26:19.what Christ did, and is the inspiration for all men. And it is
:26:19. > :26:23.kinosis which is complete self emptying. I'd like to see some more
:26:23. > :26:33.of that. Mary is the ultimate in human creation because she is
:26:33. > :26:39.
:26:39. > :26:43.totally open to God. What I want to say, just to step back one point,
:26:43. > :26:47.when you talk about kinosis and I totally agree, it's a great point,
:26:47. > :26:50.but it feels like when we look at The Bible we have to actually go so
:26:50. > :26:52.deep in explaining it and on a superficial surface reading of The
:26:53. > :27:02.Bible I can understand why people think it's patriarchal. Do you agree
:27:03. > :27:04.
:27:04. > :27:07.about Mary? I do, but when I get to Heaven I will be saying to God why
:27:08. > :27:11.did you not explain things more clearly? And I think it's important
:27:11. > :27:14.that we can be honest about The Bible. I respect it, I honour it,
:27:14. > :27:17.but I think it's a very difficult book and I think some such structure
:27:17. > :27:21.is very black and white, very clear, it's not anti-women. It looks
:27:21. > :27:23.anti-women. Let's be honest. But if you look a bit deeper if you put it
:27:23. > :27:26.in context. That's a really important point there. Before
:27:26. > :27:32.Christianity came along it was in a particular society. The Greeks were
:27:32. > :27:36.still studying to work out whether women were human. If a woman does
:27:36. > :27:42.not want to submit in that way and be pure and be virginal, is she a
:27:42. > :27:50.failure if she doesn't want to be like Mary? Oh absolutely not. I
:27:50. > :27:53.agree with the point about Song of Songs, beautifully erotic. The
:27:53. > :27:55.beautiful thing about the Song of Songs is that reality is revealed as
:27:55. > :27:58.marital, sparital, whether you're single, married, you are living a
:27:58. > :28:01.spousal reality with a very deep feeling of sexuality. What is your
:28:01. > :28:11.sexuality? What is your masculinity? It's espousal and it's deep. It's
:28:11. > :28:14.
:28:14. > :28:18.worth thinking about. In the Christian tradition, it is men in
:28:18. > :28:23.power using the religious institution to determine what is
:28:23. > :28:28.normal and what goes, and throughout our Christian tradition, very
:28:28. > :28:34.sadly, the cutting edge theologians of the day saw sexuality not
:28:34. > :28:44.something to be celebrated, they were terrified it. They were
:28:44. > :28:55.
:28:55. > :28:58.terrified. Is this the legacy of Eve? Women were temples over
:28:59. > :29:03.sewers, and in the same breath they taught things about the Christian
:29:03. > :29:08.faith which have stood the test of time. What I am saying is that the
:29:08. > :29:13.too long in the Christian tradition run by men, they said to be a good
:29:13. > :29:19.Christian man you had to divorce yourself from your sexuality, and
:29:19. > :29:27.what is the one thing they couldn't control? Sexual desire and women, so
:29:27. > :29:32.they tried to separate it out. was bursting to come in. We have
:29:32. > :29:36.talked about Mary the virgin, and many of the main focuses of religion
:29:36. > :29:43.continually seems to be controlling women's bodies, access to
:29:43. > :29:46.contraception, and the reality is that when you take away the right to
:29:47. > :29:51.control fertility from women, you take away their opportunity to
:29:51. > :29:56.escape poverty and get an education and have control over their own
:29:56. > :30:01.lives. That single cause is led by major religions is preventing women
:30:01. > :30:11.from leading better lives and escaping poverty. Alison, good
:30:11. > :30:12.
:30:12. > :30:22.morning. As an ex-Muslim, there is a phrase in the Koran you were very
:30:22. > :30:22.
:30:22. > :30:25.uncomfortable with. Chapter four, verse 34, it talks about obedient
:30:25. > :30:31.women who obey their husbands and they are perfectly fine, but it
:30:31. > :30:38.talks about rebellious women and it addresses their husbands and tells
:30:38. > :30:45.them if they rebel against you, you shouldn't sleep next to them on the
:30:46. > :30:55.same bed and you are allowed to punish them. This word punish can be
:30:56. > :31:00.
:31:00. > :31:06.interpreted as whipping. Why are you in disguise? Because I come from a
:31:06. > :31:13.Muslim background and my parents still live in Iran. I come from
:31:13. > :31:18.Iran. The punishment for apostasy is capital punishment, as you may
:31:18. > :31:28.know. So I have to be in disguise because of my parents' security.
:31:28. > :31:33.What about sura in the Koran? are certain things. No doubt we will
:31:33. > :31:40.get corrected on this by the Muslims over here. Women are fields. Go into
:31:40. > :31:49.your fields, whichever way you like. What does that mean? Women are
:31:49. > :31:56.objects. Women are your property. Your you can be however you want.
:31:56. > :32:02.Actually, it is just talking about sexual positions. At the time, there
:32:02. > :32:07.were issues and beliefs that certain sexual positions were not allowed.
:32:07. > :32:14.The Koran was just saying actually, within sex, you are free to
:32:14. > :32:22.experiment and be together. Other verses in the Koran address both men
:32:22. > :32:30.and women, not men separately. They say you are from the same soul. It
:32:30. > :32:38.has to be taken within context. That was about sexuality. A couple of
:32:38. > :32:45.other things to put on the agenda. lot of Muslims argue that Islam is
:32:45. > :32:50.fairer to women than other religions. But I have a devout
:32:50. > :32:55.Muslim friend who is campaigning on this vigorously at the moment. He
:32:55. > :33:05.thinks men get a double share of inheritance. They do. He says this
:33:05. > :33:05.
:33:05. > :33:08.is an outrage. You also need two women witnesses to be equal to one
:33:08. > :33:13.male witness in case one of the women forgets. It is quite
:33:13. > :33:18.patronising. These might be certain rules. The word of God? At the
:33:18. > :33:23.beginning of the programme, you talked about women get the right to
:33:23. > :33:27.education,, to wealth, to work, this was all established 1400 years ago
:33:27. > :33:31.by Islam. At the time, it was revolutionary. All the things we
:33:31. > :33:36.were talking about being clean or unclean or whether the Koran was
:33:36. > :33:40.written to men met it was not. It was written to men and women and
:33:40. > :33:44.Muslims and non-Muslims. An inheritance, this was written at the
:33:44. > :33:50.time when men were financially responsible for women. At the time,
:33:50. > :33:54.a woman was more likely to be having children, not like now.
:33:54. > :34:00.Traditionalists say we should still cleave to that. As a modernist, I
:34:00. > :34:04.would argue that we have a different context. And he witnessed in?With
:34:04. > :34:11.that, again, it was a time when women might be putting their lives
:34:11. > :34:15.in danger if they were standing up to be witnesses. The holy books have
:34:15. > :34:19.parts of them which were written in the context of The Times. Other
:34:19. > :34:24.parts were written for all times. This is the discrimination we need
:34:24. > :34:29.to make. So even though it was the Word of God, it was the Word of God
:34:29. > :34:34.in the context of the time? God actually says, I am using similes.
:34:34. > :34:42.You have to see beyond the words I am using. Beautifully explained, if
:34:42. > :34:47.I may say so. Thank you! These are such contentious sura. On the
:34:47. > :34:51.inheritance law, in Islam, if a wife is as a way and leaves she a
:34:51. > :34:59.daughter and a husband, the daughter takes half and the husband takes a
:34:59. > :35:04.quarter. You tell me which one is more. But the sun takes more than
:35:04. > :35:14.the daughter. Not in this circumstance. The daughter takes
:35:14. > :35:17.
:35:17. > :35:21.more than the father. You claim that this book is written for all time.
:35:21. > :35:24.The Islamic governments of Iran, Saudi Arabia and many more
:35:24. > :35:34.governments use the same book, and they have different interpretations
:35:34. > :35:37.
:35:37. > :35:41.of it which are more conservative. They have different interpretations.
:35:41. > :35:46.It goes beyond Islam. Women have been put down or oppressed in many
:35:46. > :35:53.different contexts, and men will use whatever comes to hand. The
:35:53. > :35:57.interpretation of this... Allison, what else troubles you about the
:35:57. > :36:03.context of that time and the way Muhammad -- the Prophet Muhammed led
:36:03. > :36:07.his life? Could you repeat the question? The way the Prophet
:36:07. > :36:17.Muhammad led his life, does anything about that trouble you? I think it
:36:17. > :36:24.is completely misogynistic. In what way was it misogynistic? There is a
:36:24. > :36:29.verse in the Koran, I can't run under the chapter on the number, but
:36:29. > :36:35.it addresses Muhammad and says, this is true only for you and not other
:36:35. > :36:45.believers. If you are at war with a country, you can marry women from
:36:45. > :36:45.
:36:45. > :36:49.that country if you like. And you are free to marry your cousins. You
:36:49. > :36:59.can marry anyone you want. This is only true for the Prophet macro.
:36:59. > :37:01.
:37:01. > :37:11.That is completely untrue. The fact is, at the time of 1400 years ago,
:37:11. > :37:11.
:37:11. > :37:16.the Prophet had nine wives. But you could have endless wives. In his
:37:16. > :37:20.case, we are not saying every man can have nine wives. Is that not
:37:20. > :37:23.unfair to women? The rules of marriage in Islam are that the man
:37:23. > :37:29.marries a woman. We do have dispensation for more than one wife,
:37:29. > :37:39.but the Koran says you have to be just, and to be just, you can only
:37:39. > :37:40.
:37:40. > :37:44.have one. So the advice is to just have one. Let me just add to this,
:37:44. > :37:49.the fact is that religion makes its own rules. It is not for secular
:37:49. > :37:54.society to tell me what my faith's rules should be. But secular society
:37:54. > :37:58.says you can't be a bigamist. That is fine. Of course you cannot have
:37:58. > :38:05.more than one wife here. As a British citizen, state law goes
:38:05. > :38:15.above Islamic law, and I accept that. But the Islamic countries are
:38:15. > :38:16.
:38:16. > :38:26.not accepting that. OK, everybody! Yunis, you are a recent Muslim
:38:26. > :38:28.
:38:28. > :38:32.convert. Why did you choose is love? -- Islam? The reason I chose it was
:38:32. > :38:37.more to do with the knowledge that I found inside the Koran, which
:38:37. > :38:42.totally blew my mind. But going back to what we are talking about, as
:38:42. > :38:46.somebody who was born in Britain and raised to do whatever I wanted, I
:38:46. > :38:51.was brought up as a Christian and used to go to church to pray
:38:51. > :38:56.everyday, loved it. It is funny, because I found that I had more
:38:56. > :39:00.office of womanhood and sisterhood as a Muslim and I have 100 times
:39:00. > :39:07.more female friends as a Muslim than I ever did as a Christian or in
:39:07. > :39:11.general British society. A sense of belonging. The simple situations,
:39:11. > :39:15.meeting with 15, 20 sisters and going for coffee. It just doesn't
:39:15. > :39:19.happen. The culture that I grew up with in Britain, women tend to
:39:19. > :39:26.compete against each other. This is interesting if we are talking about
:39:26. > :39:32.Islam. What I love about it, if we are talking about womanhood and
:39:32. > :39:36.sisterhood... Is that cultural? There can be other Christian
:39:36. > :39:40.countries where there is a better sense of sisterhood as well. We are
:39:40. > :39:47.quite atomised in our society. Totally. You asked me what I thought
:39:47. > :39:51.about it. What is interesting about Islam, we were talking about this
:39:51. > :40:01.concept of covering, or your hijab, which goes both for men and women.
:40:01. > :40:03.
:40:03. > :40:08.Growing up in British culture, it is kind of minimising the aesthetic or
:40:08. > :40:14.focus. Taking that out actually brings women together more. When
:40:14. > :40:20.people think about Islam and they think about women in Islam, the
:40:21. > :40:30.Prophet, his first wife was a very rich businesswoman. That is
:40:31. > :40:31.
:40:31. > :40:36.important, because what that is saying to men, they can sometimes be
:40:36. > :40:43.intimidated by rich and powerful women. The fact that he chose one as
:40:43. > :40:49.his first wife... He chose it to help spread his faith. His first
:40:49. > :40:52.wife was really rich and a rich businesswoman. But part of the
:40:52. > :40:57.marriage was that he could use the money. And she was fine with it. I
:40:57. > :41:07.am not saying she was against it. But he used her money to spread the
:41:07. > :41:08.
:41:08. > :41:14.word. What about slavery? You are missing the point. You are basically
:41:14. > :41:22.saying he almost chose his first wife only because she had money. In
:41:22. > :41:25.our culture, there can be this thing where if you are a woman and you are
:41:25. > :41:31.strong and you have a major job, maybe you are prime minister, like
:41:31. > :41:36.we said earlier, certain men might not like their wife to be in that
:41:36. > :41:44.situation. I am saying in Islam, the fact that he has done that, it sends
:41:44. > :41:48.a powerful message. Are you genuinely suggesting that Islamic
:41:48. > :41:58.men are more tolerant of women in high-powered jobs? I didn't say
:41:58. > :42:07.
:42:07. > :42:17.that. It is the exact opposite. Wait, wait, wait! In order to change
:42:17. > :42:24.gear, we will go to the audience. just wanted to say that before, you
:42:24. > :42:30.were saying that a man might get intimidated by a powerful woman.
:42:30. > :42:38.Surely that is the man's problem, and he needs to get over that.
:42:38. > :42:44.the lady over here? People find it easier to put the blame on men and
:42:44. > :42:48.say that men use religion to control women. They fail to realise that in
:42:48. > :42:53.a lot of cases, women are reluctant to review the situation for
:42:53. > :42:56.themselves and bring up the debates that need to be had so that people
:42:56. > :43:06.can look at what the true religion says and where culture has affected
:43:06. > :43:09.
:43:09. > :43:15.it in a negative way. And you? There is a thread in a lot of faiths that
:43:15. > :43:24.underlines this. When faiths have to be observed through religious
:43:24. > :43:29.institutions, those are, by and large, run by men. I am coming to a
:43:29. > :43:35.word called patriarch you. It is putting the interests of men over
:43:35. > :43:41.the interests of women. A lot of the things we are talking about affect
:43:41. > :43:51.men, but they also affect women. Let me address the fascinating issue of
:43:51. > :43:55.
:43:55. > :44:01.Hinduism. Bharti, hi. Thousands of years ago, you had many gods. God is
:44:01. > :44:08.often portrayed in peoples minds a man. But you had goddesses. You have
:44:08. > :44:18.God essence. Is that because it predates a nomadic and arguably
:44:18. > :44:18.
:44:18. > :44:23.patriarchal society? The Vidic traditions originate in India.
:44:23. > :44:28.Hinduism sees God as female. So there are traditions which have God
:44:28. > :44:33.as male, and there are traditions which have God as female. I have
:44:33. > :44:39.been listening to this Abrahamic debate wondering when our traditions
:44:40. > :44:49.come in. We have a different perspective. It is not a male God,
:44:49. > :44:56.it is a female God. We follow scripture is which are also written
:44:56. > :45:01.by females. Why is that? It must have grown up in a different kind of
:45:01. > :45:07.society from the dozen societies that gave rise to the Bible and the
:45:07. > :45:13.Koran. Yes, it was a tradition from India. But the Abrahamic traditions
:45:13. > :45:23.did have goddesses as well. But we still worshipped God as female.
:45:23. > :45:28.
:45:28. > :45:31.it is a living tradition currently. One of the things that I would point
:45:31. > :45:34.out is sometimes what happens in faith is different from what happens
:45:34. > :45:37.in culture. So even within Hinduism we have women who have to fight to
:45:37. > :45:40.become priests. Interestingly, there are more women priests in India, and
:45:40. > :45:44.being ordained in India, than in Britain where a lady has been
:45:44. > :45:48.waiting for two and a half years even to get a hearing to join the
:45:48. > :45:51.English priests. So I think we need to also put that in context and it
:45:51. > :45:54.doesn't surprise me at all, the statement that the Dalai Lama made
:45:54. > :45:57.because he is also part of the Rivic tradition, and women are more
:45:57. > :45:59.accepted, women have that opportunity and I myself work at a
:45:59. > :46:02.national and international level in fields where traditionally perhaps
:46:02. > :46:10.only men would sit. I sit on the European Council of Religious
:46:10. > :46:20.Leaders. Seen as more equal, not just a vessel to have children. And
:46:20. > :46:30.my winding you up, Sarah? Just a bit. I will speak after this lovely
:46:30. > :46:31.
:46:31. > :46:38.lady! We are transplanting a lot of secular constructs onto faith. From
:46:38. > :46:44.a Jewish point of view, God is neither male or female. The whole
:46:44. > :46:54.debate lowers the whole understanding of what God is.
:46:54. > :46:59.
:46:59. > :47:06.just said He! In answer to your point, you are absolutely right.
:47:06. > :47:16.There is a mindset that gives you the language. You have to get beyond
:47:16. > :47:19.
:47:19. > :47:23.the language. We are not in a religious debating programme, we're
:47:23. > :47:28.in a programme that's debating about the way we live in this country at
:47:28. > :47:31.the moment, and the way we should be. Talking about leaderism, one of
:47:31. > :47:33.the really fascinating things that's happening in Britain at the moment,
:47:33. > :47:36.the institutional influence of Christianity is fading, it's near
:47:36. > :47:42.paganism, and near paganist ideas, are forming more and more the
:47:42. > :47:46.mainstream. People ask why are you interested in this? At whatever
:47:46. > :47:48.level. They always consistently say, and this is a kind of an
:47:48. > :47:55.understanding of spirituality, that has a goddess and a male and female
:47:55. > :47:59.spirit and it deals with God in a way that Hinduism does. I'm really
:47:59. > :48:02.intrigued by what Francesca said as a footnote, when I was speaking to
:48:02. > :48:05.you Bharti, I think the camera picked it up, we use in the
:48:05. > :48:08.Abrahamic tradition there used to be goddesses, but they've been kind of
:48:08. > :48:18.airbrushed out, a kind of cut and paste. Cut, paste, delete, is that
:48:18. > :48:21.
:48:21. > :48:24.what happened? Essentially, yes. The ancient Israelite society from which
:48:24. > :48:26.the Biblical traditions of the Old Testament and from again which New
:48:26. > :48:29.Testament traditions have emerged, and then some Koran traditions, it
:48:29. > :48:36.was a polytheistic society. So in other words, it wasn't just one god
:48:36. > :48:39.that was worshipped, it was many gods. It just so happens the God of
:48:39. > :48:41.The Bible who had a consort, the goddess Asha, we've got inscriptions
:48:41. > :48:44.attaching to this, we've got figurines attaching to this, various
:48:44. > :48:46.neighbouring cultures have similar sort of traditions about this
:48:46. > :48:51.goddess, she, as monotheism becomes preferable to certain Biblical
:48:51. > :48:53.writers, against polytheism, so she's basically divorced. In strong
:48:53. > :48:56.traditions, traditions, the practice of Christianity as you know, there's
:48:56. > :48:59.a strong tradition of women celebrating their relationship with
:48:59. > :49:01.God and celebrating the female side of God as well. Let's not pretend
:49:01. > :49:09.that this doesn't exist in Christianity, it's a very powerful
:49:09. > :49:12.part of it. But what about the institutions? We must, in the last
:49:12. > :49:18.few minutes available to us, get on to the institutions, Sarah I'll
:49:18. > :49:23.allow you to kick off on this. I did promise to come to you a couple of
:49:23. > :49:29.moments ago. Look at the Papal Conclave, all those old men. Those
:49:29. > :49:37.wonderful old men and they were very inspiring. Would it be good to have
:49:37. > :49:40.someone men in there? We need to think about two things here. What is
:49:40. > :49:42.the priesthood, and what is the role of men and women working together.
:49:42. > :49:52.And we often conflict priesthood with leadership and it's not
:49:52. > :50:12.
:50:12. > :50:20.necessarily the same thing. Lady here is so desperate to come in,
:50:20. > :50:23.unless I let her in I fear something dreadful is to happen! I've come to
:50:23. > :50:27.here from the Catholic church, and I spoke to my priest before coming
:50:27. > :50:32.here and I said to him, this is the debate, and the issue is are women
:50:32. > :50:40.treated unequally in religions? In the Church, women run the Church,
:50:40. > :50:42.apart from at the top. And if women run the Church, apart from at the
:50:42. > :50:44.top, and it is paradoxical because institutionally as a leadership
:50:44. > :50:48.consultant, I know that institutionally, in terms of
:50:48. > :50:51.leadership we'll never have a Pope that's a leader, or a priest? Think
:50:51. > :51:01.about Mother Theresa and the kind of influence that Mother Theresa has
:51:01. > :51:02.
:51:02. > :51:11.had over the world, globally, it is paradoxical. You said Mother Teresa,
:51:11. > :51:14.then you said incredibly damaging. She gave people medical treatment
:51:14. > :51:24.and made people 's lives worse because she thought suffering
:51:24. > :51:27.
:51:27. > :51:32.brought people closer to God. She was a terrible woman. Saying about
:51:32. > :51:35.how women are struggling. I am a Sikh and as far as I know, from what
:51:35. > :51:38.I know, Sikh or whatever, women have always been encouraged to join in.
:51:38. > :51:41.Never any impediment that women can't be in positions. But then
:51:42. > :51:45.again, if you go into temples you find that no women are in top
:51:45. > :51:48.positions, and why is that? Not right at the top. I see many men
:51:48. > :51:51.monopolising my place in society that's creeping in to temple, and we
:51:52. > :51:55.have to separate the two. Women are allowed to do whatever they want in
:51:55. > :51:59.temple. They can join in and sing hymns, but in the committee, the top
:51:59. > :52:04.jobs who make all the decisions, women aren't there. Why can't we
:52:05. > :52:14.have mixed prayers and women leading mixed prayers in mosques? We have
:52:15. > :52:16.
:52:16. > :52:19.mixed prayers. The reason why women do not lead prayers is because our
:52:19. > :52:29.prayers, Muslim prayers, are very physical and if you ever watch the
:52:29. > :52:32.Muslim prayer we have to put... Yes, our bottoms in the air. The thing
:52:32. > :52:35.is, if you take apart the role of religious leader, and put prayer
:52:35. > :52:45.aside, women in Islam can be and are religious leaders. Our women are
:52:45. > :52:48.allowed to watchmen praying? Well preferably - well they can if they
:52:48. > :52:55.want, but preferably not because the idea, you're supposed to avert your
:52:55. > :52:58.eyes when something physical is there. But when it comes to
:52:58. > :53:01.religious leadership there is no impediment in Islam for women to be
:53:01. > :53:04.religious leaders and the Prophet said take two thirds of your faith.
:53:04. > :53:08.I was 18 at the time, and women can be religious leaders, and are
:53:08. > :53:12.religious leaders. I would just like to say personally my faith in Islam
:53:12. > :53:15.is completely - there's a couple of different things going on here. It
:53:15. > :53:22.is important to differentiate between the religions, and
:53:22. > :53:25.understand how the different religions treat people. In my
:53:25. > :53:28.experience of Islam, all the people I come into contact with, all the
:53:28. > :53:31.people who have taught me anything, are female. Most of the events,
:53:32. > :53:41.99.9% of the events and things that I attend, are mixed. There's never
:53:42. > :53:42.
:53:42. > :53:51.like just women or just men. Your introduction to Islam has been very
:53:51. > :53:59.liberal. One at a time, children. There is a different between culture
:53:59. > :54:06.and what is written in the Koran. If you see a certain practice, muslin
:54:06. > :54:13.people not wanting women to lead, that is them, not the faith. You
:54:13. > :54:23.need to understand and study the difference. Because we see Islam
:54:23. > :54:28.
:54:28. > :54:33.running a very different way and theocracy coming in here, and many
:54:33. > :54:38.people tell me this is a very good place to be a Muslim. Even in Africa
:54:38. > :54:45.where I come from, it is completely normal to have a church and a
:54:45. > :54:55.mosque, whereas in Britain that is not the case. You tend to find the
:54:55. > :55:02.
:55:02. > :55:11.culture of the country you are and will impact. Cole Moreton, does the
:55:11. > :55:15.law need to nudge religions towards conditions of equality? The law was
:55:15. > :55:25.fine for a very long time in this country by Christianity, church and
:55:25. > :55:25.
:55:25. > :55:29.the state working together. That nexus is fading, it's dismantling
:55:29. > :55:32.and what the law, and the state, needs to find a way of mediating
:55:32. > :55:36.between the many different faiths and belief systems that we now have
:55:36. > :55:39.in this country. And so the law, and the state, need to find a way to
:55:39. > :55:43.make it possible for us all to live respectfully in a land in which the
:55:43. > :55:46.Rabbi will not shake the hand of a woman. You know, because actually
:55:46. > :55:50.the majority of people in society would be appalled by that and we
:55:50. > :55:52.would also be appalled by an attack on the Rabbi's faith. So how do we
:55:52. > :55:54.mediate that? When you read secular feminist books, they are crying out
:55:54. > :55:57.for respect and I think we are asking where is women's spirituality
:55:57. > :56:02.going to flourish? Is it in the new brutalism or the new secularism? I
:56:02. > :56:12.agree we need to find an environment in which things are being respected.
:56:12. > :56:15.
:56:16. > :56:18.The new brutalism? I have no idea what is brutal about secularism.
:56:18. > :56:21.you read this rather interesting book called Living Dolls she cites
:56:21. > :56:30.fantastic evidence about how young women today are feeling more
:56:30. > :56:37.objectified, more demands to have sex. This is not patriarch it, it is
:56:37. > :56:47.the over sexualisation of children. Taking part in a culture and society
:56:47. > :56:52.
:56:52. > :57:02.with the polar -- the privileges of the man over the woman. We did not
:57:02. > :57:04.hear a word of that. I think that women are even being misled into
:57:04. > :57:06.celebrating themselves as, say, the protagonists of hard core
:57:06. > :57:09.pornography and they're finding themselves disillusioned with that
:57:09. > :57:15.because it's not bringing them the depth and the freedom that they
:57:15. > :57:22.wanted. So true respect is within the church? It is within the wisdom
:57:22. > :57:26.within true sexuality, when it is allowed to flourish. I have been
:57:26. > :57:32.writing a lot about sexualisation of children lately, something that
:57:32. > :57:39.deeply concerns me, and when I read the research it shows that this is
:57:39. > :57:43.happening in every kind of home. Muslim homes, Hindu homes, Christian
:57:43. > :57:48.homes and in homes where people are not quite sure what they believe. It
:57:48. > :57:53.is a problem with our society and culture, and religion is failing to
:57:53. > :58:01.say anything about it. It is colluding and condoning of view of
:58:01. > :58:06.women as primarily having value through our availability to men.
:58:06. > :58:16.That is what contraception doors to women, it makes women available to
:58:16. > :58:20.
:58:20. > :58:23.men all of the time. Thank you all very much indeed. This debate will