:00:32. > :00:35.APPLAUSE And good morning. We are at Leith Academy, I am Nicky
:00:35. > :00:41.Campbell. Britain is gearing up to host the G8 summit again. When it
:00:41. > :00:48.was held at Gleneagles eight years ago, the rich nations committed to
:00:48. > :00:53.spend 0.7% of GDP on foreign aid by 2015. This week, the coalition
:00:53. > :00:58.Government went back on the promise to cement that in law. The first
:00:58. > :01:04.question, should governments pledge a percentage to foreign aid? The
:01:04. > :01:08.astonishing events in Cleveland, Ohio, on Monday when three women
:01:08. > :01:12.escaped from a decade of abuse in an ordinary suburban house gave
:01:12. > :01:19.pause for thought. If that happen next door to you, would you have
:01:19. > :01:22.then? Would you have done anything about it? Should you mind your
:01:22. > :01:30.neighbour's Business? First day was Ascension Day, marking when Jesus
:01:30. > :01:40.rose to heaven, completing mankind's redemption. Do humans
:01:40. > :01:40.
:01:40. > :01:46.need the idea of heaven? Welcome to The Big Questions.
:01:46. > :01:53.Three years ago today, David Cameron and Nick Clegg signed the
:01:53. > :01:57.coalition agreement. One aim was to spend 0.7% of gross national income
:01:57. > :02:02.on foreign aid as pledged at Gleneagles by Tony Blair and other
:02:02. > :02:06.leaders. That was supposed to be set in statute. But it was left out
:02:06. > :02:13.of the Queen's Speech. Should governments pledge a percentage to
:02:13. > :02:19.foreign aid? Seven out of ten people think we spend too much on
:02:19. > :02:26.foreign aid, there seems to be a growing scepticism. Is that the
:02:26. > :02:36.space? We are one of the wealthiest countries. The amount we spend is
:02:36. > :02:39.
:02:39. > :02:45.not enormous. 70 pence in every �100. If you earn �20,000, �52 goes
:02:45. > :02:50.towards international development. -- �25,000. That is the average
:02:51. > :02:56.wage. I think that is reasonable. What do you say to those who argue
:02:56. > :03:04.against it? Those who say it would be better done by the private
:03:04. > :03:11.sector. The aid programme is well managed and respected around the
:03:11. > :03:14.world. There is a moral obligation. There is an international
:03:14. > :03:19.obligation to which we signed up at Gleneagles. The issue is whether we
:03:19. > :03:26.should go back on what we signed up to, even though it was endorsed by
:03:27. > :03:32.all three political parties. The bottom line is this, it is in our
:03:32. > :03:37.national self-interest. If you are interested in stopping the flow of
:03:37. > :03:41.migrants and asylum seekers into the UK, or reducing it, and
:03:41. > :03:46.interestingly, most of the people who want to stop foreign aid are
:03:46. > :03:48.also against foreigners coming here, if that is what you want to do, it
:03:49. > :03:54.makes sense to stabilise the countries from which they are
:03:54. > :03:59.coming. One of the biggest recipients of international aid
:03:59. > :04:04.will be Somalia. This is a country that is integrated and gave rise to
:04:04. > :04:09.terrorism, piracy and huge numbers of refugees. Hundreds of thousands
:04:09. > :04:13.are here and in other countries. It is in the national interest. You
:04:13. > :04:20.cannot build a fortress around Europe and say we are not
:04:20. > :04:25.interested. Taking that in reverse order, in
:04:25. > :04:34.the past 15 years we have spent more on foreign aid and there have
:04:34. > :04:41.been more immigrants. Age does not work. $300 billion spent on foreign
:04:41. > :04:46.aid from 1970 -- foreign aid does not work. It does not work, it
:04:46. > :04:51.creates dependency. It undermines local business and economy is that
:04:51. > :04:56.are thriving. What foreign aid is poor people in rich countries
:04:56. > :05:01.paying for rich people in poor countries. A lot of the money and
:05:02. > :05:11.sup in bank accounts of African dictators in Switzerland. -- it
:05:12. > :05:14.
:05:15. > :05:22.ends up. It is all very well for a minister who do not pay all that
:05:22. > :05:26.much tax. But for people... There is something in Scotland, a trust
:05:26. > :05:34.that the year before last had to feed 5000 starving children in
:05:34. > :05:44.Scotland. Last year, it had to beat 14,000. There are many problems
:05:44. > :05:50.domestically we have not solved. That is an important point. It is a
:05:50. > :05:54.moral issue. Some of your neighbours in Scotland have the
:05:54. > :06:00.lowest life-expectancy rates. church of Scotland has been
:06:00. > :06:10.involved in food banks. That is not the point when you give up on those
:06:10. > :06:14.
:06:14. > :06:17.are -- who are even poorest. It works out at 37p per day at most
:06:17. > :06:23.for international aid per head. I am concerned with the struggle
:06:23. > :06:30.young people have in Scotland and with people ending up at food banks.
:06:30. > :06:36.But I note that a great deal of foreign aid works on the ground and
:06:36. > :06:40.saves lives. I am concerned about poverty here, and the troubles with
:06:40. > :06:47.the health service, but if the money can save lives, I want to
:06:47. > :06:54.continue paying it. It is money well spent. You will comparison is
:06:54. > :07:04.wrong. 70% -- when you say 70p, that is if you are a taxpayer, if
:07:04. > :07:05.
:07:05. > :07:10.you do not earn money, and you have nothing. He will help you? Send
:07:10. > :07:15.money abroad, foster development, create a market and new business
:07:15. > :07:20.partners. If you want to help the world, there is nothing wrong with
:07:20. > :07:26.compassion, you deal with it by fighting agricultural subsidies in
:07:26. > :07:32.Europe and America. You deal with the right investment policy that
:07:32. > :07:38.gets business going. You do not throw money at people that you have
:07:38. > :07:42.no accountability where the money goes. There is no system in the UK
:07:42. > :07:52.dealing with where the foreign aid is going and reviewing it to see if
:07:52. > :07:55.
:07:55. > :08:01.it is causing growth. We have cut aid to South Africa by 19 billion.
:08:01. > :08:05.Jacob Zuma's new compound cost 20 million and that annoys people.
:08:05. > :08:12.said we are not giving any more to South Africa because it is
:08:12. > :08:22.potentially a rich country. That is wrong, we have just cut it. We will
:08:22. > :08:27.
:08:27. > :08:34.stop spending 90 million in 2015. - 19 million. None of it goes to
:08:34. > :08:39.African dictators. In countries that are unstable you would not
:08:39. > :08:44.hand money over to a government, you would spend it through
:08:44. > :08:54.organisations working on the ground. It does not gain a dictator's' bank
:08:54. > :08:57.
:08:57. > :09:05.accounts. A lot of it is spent on vaccination of children. 55 million.
:09:05. > :09:13.Also on combating malaria. And on prevention of Aids. I quite agree
:09:13. > :09:16.with the point that the ideal is not to make people dependent. It is
:09:16. > :09:22.to create functioning economy is and market economies. You cannot
:09:22. > :09:31.begin to do that if your population is laid to waste by malaria and
:09:31. > :09:36.Aids. You have to get infrastructure? I agree in those
:09:36. > :09:46.areas the programme works. But it makes no sense to have not 0.7% as
:09:46. > :09:48.
:09:48. > :09:53.a target. -- to have 0.7%. The needs of the country is that
:09:53. > :09:56.receive aid will change. By next year, we will spend more on
:09:57. > :10:06.international aid than we well on frontline policing. Most people
:10:07. > :10:10.
:10:10. > :10:16.would think we have our -- our priorities wrong. C M 25% of the
:10:16. > :10:23.world wealth -- 75% of the wealth of the world is held by a minority.
:10:23. > :10:28.1.2 billion live on less than $1 a day. We need to make sure we share
:10:28. > :10:35.it so that lives are saved. We would want to happen were we in
:10:35. > :10:45.that situation. Almost every government department is reducing
:10:45. > :10:50.its budget. Does that not make you proud? Do we need more customers
:10:50. > :10:59.for our growth? The if you talk about linking trade and foreign aid,
:10:59. > :11:04.we should not use it in that way. If you develop a country they will
:11:04. > :11:08.need things. Whenever a department is reducing the budget and every
:11:08. > :11:18.taxpayer is reducing their budget, it is wrong for foreign aid to be
:11:18. > :11:19.
:11:19. > :11:25.increased. You are encouraging dependency. People say we are
:11:25. > :11:35.spending too much and I would say we are not spending enough. Sweden
:11:35. > :11:38.
:11:38. > :11:48.spends 1.5%. Luxembourg Spence double our percentage. --
:11:48. > :11:48.
:11:48. > :11:52.Luxembourg spending 1.04 per cent. The 6th richest country in the
:11:52. > :11:57.world and we have food banks. Instead of the Government giving
:11:57. > :12:03.tax breaks to wealthy people, taking care of business and wealthy
:12:03. > :12:07.people, collect the �120 billion of tax that is avoided and evaded and
:12:07. > :12:17.we could give more foreign aid and make sure ordinary people here live
:12:17. > :12:19.
:12:19. > :12:27.a decent lifestyle. Somebody from taxpayers Scotland talking against
:12:27. > :12:31.foreign aid. I did not notice comments from organisations such as
:12:31. > :12:35.them on willingness to spend money on the funeral of Margaret Thatcher.
:12:35. > :12:42.Have they been speaking against Trident and the billions spent on
:12:42. > :12:47.that. We will talk about foreign aid. Do you understand the
:12:47. > :12:52.resentment some people have? Some people say we are the sixth biggest
:12:52. > :12:59.economy in the world. Some people say we are the 10th. Why do we give
:12:59. > :13:03.aid to the 11th, India? We are not planning to give foreign aid to the
:13:03. > :13:08.Indian government, it is to the Indian people. There are countries
:13:08. > :13:13.where they have rich people but they do not have the infrastructure
:13:13. > :13:16.to look after their own poor people. I believe in giving money to help
:13:16. > :13:23.to raise living standards and opportunities of people in the
:13:23. > :13:27.developing world. It is ridiculous to say we will tie the hands of
:13:27. > :13:32.future government about how much to spend. We should spend money to
:13:32. > :13:38.promote development. We should aim to not have to spend that money for
:13:38. > :13:45.very long. If it works, we should not spend the money again. The idea
:13:45. > :13:48.that you have to fix an arbitrary figure in law strikes me as
:13:48. > :13:56.ridiculous. It is not to say we should not be doing everything
:13:56. > :14:04.possible, even at a time when we have less, to help those worse off.
:14:04. > :14:14.Should we give money to countries that a press women and execute
:14:14. > :14:16.
:14:16. > :14:22.homosexuals? You have been reading the Daily Express newspaper! We do
:14:22. > :14:29.not give it to the governments concerned. It is about people.
:14:29. > :14:34.India contains more poor people than a whole of sub-Saharan Africa.
:14:34. > :14:40.The biggest conglomeration of poor people on the planet. We do not
:14:40. > :14:44.give it to the Indian government. We spend it often through
:14:44. > :14:54.organisations, some time state governments to take an interest.
:14:54. > :14:55.
:14:55. > :15:01.Pakistan gets a lot of money from us. Pakistan has serious problems,
:15:01. > :15:11.and they are not all of its own making. They have up to 4 million
:15:11. > :15:27.
:15:27. > :15:37.to people and not governments? If we think about this in terms of
:15:37. > :15:38.
:15:38. > :15:44.state to state transfers, that is the wrong road.
:15:44. > :15:50.After the report, it was about aspiration at that time, pushing
:15:50. > :16:00.levels up from 0.3% of spending in the OECD, and it becomes politically
:16:00. > :16:15.
:16:15. > :16:21.fossilised almost. It becomes a mantra. But, the important...
:16:21. > :16:25.Politically and culturally. Physically, very close. The
:16:25. > :16:32.important thing we have got here, is that if we actually start looking at
:16:32. > :16:35.private, non-governmental institutions. The really big
:16:35. > :16:40.institutions that can do this partnership effectively are the
:16:40. > :16:47.religious organisations. I can see Philippa wants to come in
:16:47. > :16:53.straightaway. I would love to take you to our work
:16:53. > :16:57.in the Democratic Republic of Congo. The worst place to be a woman.
:16:57. > :17:04.A hard country to live in. The churches are there were no other NGO
:17:05. > :17:10.can get in. For example, we trained 27 surgeons in a place the size of
:17:10. > :17:14.Scotland where previously there was only one, who can help women after
:17:14. > :17:24.they had been raped. Women went for ten years without being able to walk
:17:24. > :17:25.
:17:25. > :17:28.probably. -- properly. They can now get legal advice to take the
:17:28. > :17:33.perpetrators to court. Psychotherapy, counselling, starting
:17:33. > :17:43.small businesses. Our money makes a big difference?
:17:43. > :17:56.
:17:56. > :18:00.You are in a country where a child born of rape does not legally exist
:18:00. > :18:07.things are streets ahead from many years ago.
:18:07. > :18:11.This is a crucial point. Actually, aid spending is one of the few areas
:18:11. > :18:21.where the British government is good at getting people who are better at
:18:21. > :18:28.
:18:28. > :18:32.doing things, to do those things. Actually, using non-governmental
:18:32. > :18:37.institutions, people who have a level of expertise but are not
:18:37. > :18:44.involved in the state, to try to raise people 's living standards,
:18:44. > :18:51.raised peoples opportunities, it is something we do very well.
:18:51. > :18:57.The British government can't get dealing with poverty correctly in
:18:57. > :19:04.this country, I don't want to believe in any sense of the world --
:19:04. > :19:07.word it can do so overseas. I think it feels wonderful we can go around
:19:07. > :19:11.the world curing people but we have to be realistic about the
:19:11. > :19:19.limitations and make sure we get our own domestic affairs right first,
:19:19. > :19:25.which we haven't done. Good morning. Let's cast our minds
:19:25. > :19:30.back to 2005 when the G8 and Bob Geldof were in Scotland. The whole
:19:30. > :19:34.objective was to make poverty history. To this day, I know it's
:19:35. > :19:40.only been eight years, but poverty still exists. I have to say the
:19:40. > :19:46.gentleman on the opposite side is correct. The money needs to go to
:19:46. > :19:51.the correct places. The problem with this 0.7% pledge, it is all good we
:19:51. > :20:01.are giving money, showing we care, but the money needs to go to the
:20:01. > :20:07.right places. It needs to go to Infrastructure.
:20:07. > :20:14.Absolutely. But not to dictators who abuse that money.
:20:14. > :20:20.It is too easy to say, that is a bad guy. It is not the case. The vast
:20:20. > :20:26.majority of the money goes as we heard from Philippa.
:20:26. > :20:30.Just think about the people. You don't walk away from the people,
:20:30. > :20:39.all the more reason to go in there to get organisations who can make
:20:39. > :20:44.the difference. We also have an NGO, and their motto
:20:44. > :20:50.is to give help where help is needed. That charity, that
:20:50. > :20:55.compassion, it is the people, not only people, our planet, our
:20:55. > :21:01.animals. People everywhere in the world. It is not a matter of
:21:01. > :21:05.geography. I agree with the lady at the back who said, if we distributed
:21:05. > :21:13.our wealth more fairly, there is enough for everyone. The problem is
:21:13. > :21:18.the top few percentage, I am talking about people like bankers who award
:21:18. > :21:23.themselves huge bonuses, it is so completely unfair, how can that be a
:21:24. > :21:30.fair society. There is enough if it is fairly distributed. You can't
:21:30. > :21:40.just do it any old how but with intelligence and respect as well as
:21:40. > :21:40.
:21:40. > :21:46.compassion. And you very much. The last word?
:21:46. > :21:54.0.7% is an arbitrary number. We have to set our stall as a nation. We
:21:54. > :22:00.have poverty under control as a nation. In 1990, 40% of people lived
:22:00. > :22:06.below $1 a day, today, it is half that. The idea it does not affect
:22:06. > :22:10.poverty is false. What we have to do is make sure it goes to
:22:10. > :22:19.organisations who work for people, interpersonal charities. This
:22:19. > :22:29.Friday, my sermon was about eight. It seems distant but it is saving
:22:29. > :22:34.
:22:34. > :22:42.people's lives -- aid. When people hear it I am from Pakistan, they
:22:42. > :22:48.open up. The Muslims in the subcontinent in the 20s, sent a two
:22:48. > :22:53.turkey, and that has remained in the Turkish psyche to this day. We have
:22:53. > :22:59.a triple-A status in our credit rating but that will come down. When
:22:59. > :23:04.it comes down... Wants it false, you need friends. Other countries are
:23:04. > :23:14.coming up, we are not. At the end of the day, you are giving now, you
:23:14. > :23:16.
:23:16. > :23:19.will receive in the future. Thank you all very much.
:23:19. > :23:22.If you have something to say about that debate, log on to:
:23:22. > :23:24.bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions. And follow the link to where you can
:23:24. > :23:27.join in the discussion online. Or contribute on Twitter. This We're
:23:27. > :23:29.also debating live this morning from Edinburgh: Should you mind your
:23:29. > :23:31.neighbour's business? And: Do humans need the idea of
:23:31. > :23:34.heaven? Tell us what you think about those
:23:34. > :23:37.topics, or send any general comments you'd like to make about the
:23:37. > :23:40.programme. Is Ariel Castro, a former school bus driver, has been charged
:23:40. > :23:43.with abducting and raping Michelle Knight since 2002, Amanda Berry
:23:43. > :23:45.since 2003. And Gina DeJesus since 2004. A child
:23:45. > :23:51.was born to Amanda during her imprisonment. And Michelle suffered
:23:51. > :23:55.five miscarriages caused by her starvation. All of this went on in
:23:55. > :23:57.an ordinary suburban house, on an ordinary street. Over the decade,
:23:57. > :24:07.neighbours had very occasionally reported odd sightings to the police
:24:07. > :24:07.
:24:07. > :24:15.but nothing more was done. Should you mind your neighbour's business?
:24:15. > :24:20.What sort of society we -- should we aspire to be? Should the curtains
:24:20. > :24:25.twitch a little more? We do need more curtain twitching estimation
:24:25. > :24:29.mark there is in our society a fear of being seen as a busybody, is
:24:29. > :24:32.being seen as someone who is overly invested in what goes on around
:24:32. > :24:37.them. And that leads us to having a
:24:37. > :24:41.certain take on what it means to being a good citizen. At the very
:24:41. > :24:45.most perhaps we may be obliged to call the police or social services
:24:45. > :24:50.where we think something is wrong, but we take no long-term holistic
:24:50. > :24:51.interest in the people around us. We interest in the people around us. We
:24:51. > :25:01.judge too little, and we are also judge too little, and we are
:25:01. > :25:05.
:25:05. > :25:09.We are frightened about judging other people's behaviour, whether it
:25:09. > :25:14.is acceptable or moral or correct. The flip side about that, we feel
:25:14. > :25:20.great about how free we are to get on with our lives, but we feel less
:25:20. > :25:22.compassionate for the people around us. We feel as though we are somehow
:25:22. > :25:30.not involved in what goes on in their lives, and we should be.
:25:30. > :25:33.What should be be judgemental about? It will differ for different people.
:25:33. > :25:35.It is about expressing some concern and investment in the people around
:25:35. > :25:40.you. What about people's right to
:25:40. > :25:46.privacy? Courtesy is very important. As a
:25:46. > :25:51.society, as we have moved away from being involved in being invested in
:25:51. > :25:55.others' lives. If anything, we have empowered the state, we have
:25:55. > :26:00.outsourced the way in which we expect behaviour to be monitored.
:26:00. > :26:07.The police and community support officer and social workers will do
:26:07. > :26:10.it all. Everyone thinks there is something ghastly about admitting
:26:10. > :26:14.you are quite judgemental. I am judgemental when I see people
:26:14. > :26:19.littering, people putting their feet on chairs in the train, I think it
:26:19. > :26:23.is a bad thing. Sometimes I say something, sometimes I am too
:26:23. > :26:30.frightened to. Or I have the social awkwardness of knowing that other
:26:30. > :26:38.people will think I am a busybody. I am trying to break free of that.
:26:38. > :26:44.To come out of the busybody closet. Yes, we should. You can't outsource
:26:44. > :26:52.moral responsibility, can you? No, but sometimes we have a moral
:26:52. > :26:56.response ability to mind our own business. Privacy is important. Now,
:26:56. > :27:02.if our neighbours need help, and they ask for help, we should be
:27:02. > :27:07.prepared to give it. And if we see a serious offence being committed, we
:27:07. > :27:12.should alert the authorities. But we should be very cautious about
:27:12. > :27:15.interfering in people's private lives. We should assume that our
:27:15. > :27:25.neighbours are not holding people captive.
:27:25. > :27:25.
:27:25. > :27:32.I agree with you on that. If you hear loud noises, your first
:27:32. > :27:37.assumption should be the TV is too loud. If we have reasons to think
:27:37. > :27:42.that someone is in danger of something and needs help, we should
:27:42. > :27:47.be prepared to help. What if you have an elderly
:27:48. > :27:53.neighbour living on their own, very isolated? You should enquire, but
:27:53. > :28:03.gently, of course. If you can help, you should. We all have elderly
:28:03. > :28:04.
:28:04. > :28:12.people around us. We all need increasingly insular lives.
:28:12. > :28:16.They might not want help. In that case, you back off.
:28:16. > :28:20.You said you shouldn't investigate your neighbours lives, we shouldn't
:28:20. > :28:24.have too. We should have a relationship with the people around
:28:24. > :28:27.us in society. There is a crucial difference between stalking your
:28:27. > :28:33.neighbours, because you have become convinced they are holding people
:28:33. > :28:35.captive. And having an ongoing relationship with people around
:28:35. > :28:41.you. Your opponents say you are turning
:28:41. > :28:45.us into a socialist east German nirvana excavation mark in socialist
:28:45. > :28:50.East Germany, nobody could trust their neighbours.
:28:50. > :28:57.In a society like ours, where we become increasingly insular, less
:28:57. > :29:07.attached to the people around us, in that society they take -- the state
:29:07. > :29:20.
:29:20. > :29:27.I am a local community councillor. Do not look at the monitor. I would
:29:27. > :29:36.get a fright if I looked at the monitor! I have been a community
:29:36. > :29:41.councillor in my area of. I am disabled and I live on benefits.
:29:41. > :29:51.One elderly person said to me, you handicapped phone, terrible
:29:51. > :29:52.
:29:52. > :29:57.language, you get everything -- folk. They said what to why get
:29:57. > :30:03.from the council, not even a golden watch, I worked for them for 40
:30:03. > :30:10.years! You lookout for your neighbours? If I saw someone in
:30:10. > :30:14.trouble, I would be the first to help. We have to be the minds of
:30:14. > :30:19.the police and if there is something suspicious happening, we
:30:19. > :30:29.have to be responsible citizens. At the same time, we have to mind our
:30:29. > :30:31.
:30:31. > :30:36.business. Let me hear what other people have to say. We do need to
:30:36. > :30:42.mind other people's business more. Some people might not need help.
:30:42. > :30:47.Why bother with them? Sometimes, it is difficult to ask for help. In
:30:47. > :30:55.the case of a domestic abusive situation, it is difficult to say
:30:56. > :31:05.this is happening. You might suspect that. When it is too late,
:31:05. > :31:13.people will say I did suspect. Better safe than sorry. It is
:31:13. > :31:18.better that way than to say it is none of my business. Irrespective
:31:18. > :31:23.of what is a moral ideal, it is a question of practicality. People
:31:23. > :31:27.look back to the idea of a golden age of knowing what your neighbours
:31:27. > :31:36.were doing. It is the extent to which that is practical for most
:31:36. > :31:40.people now. I am an elderly person living alone. Occasionally, I would
:31:40. > :31:45.benefit from help for -- from a neighbour. When I moved to my
:31:46. > :31:52.present accommodation, a neighbour came when I was unloading and
:31:52. > :31:55.offered help. I did not have to ask for it. I would not have. I am an
:31:55. > :32:03.independent person not given to asking for help. But help was
:32:03. > :32:07.offered. Outside my house I have a plot of ground. When I want to move
:32:07. > :32:14.the pot plants, they are heavy. I do not even have to ask, the
:32:14. > :32:19.neighbours offer. That is marvellous. I do not know what they
:32:19. > :32:29.were cat. We pass the time of day, they are aware there is an elderly
:32:29. > :32:29.
:32:29. > :32:39.person in their area and they look after me. The that is in Edinburgh?
:32:39. > :32:40.
:32:41. > :32:48.No, it is in Falkirk. In different parts of the country, Scotland did
:32:48. > :32:56.well with people saying many had helpful neighbours. In London, it
:32:56. > :32:59.was not. The police. If we reported everything we saw and everything we
:32:59. > :33:05.thought people were doing wrong to you, you would not have any time to
:33:05. > :33:10.do anything? The first part of the discussion has been about
:33:10. > :33:16.vulnerability. That issue is important. People in the community
:33:16. > :33:21.where crime is not an issue. We do not what -- we do not know what
:33:21. > :33:26.happened in Cleveland, that is an exception. It is about
:33:26. > :33:32.vulnerability and people feeling excluded. If we are good citizens
:33:32. > :33:35.we can speak to neighbours. And less of a fear of crime, that is a
:33:35. > :33:40.major thing for people. One neighbour talked about people
:33:41. > :33:50.shouting for help and domestic abuse. A and screaming in the
:33:51. > :33:51.
:33:51. > :33:55.street. We would look for contact, and contact us. Do not be
:33:55. > :34:00.frightened we will jump into things. We will make an assessment and keep
:34:01. > :34:06.people say. If you think you will phone the police, how long does it
:34:06. > :34:11.take? A first thing is to telephone the police. In exceptional
:34:11. > :34:16.circumstances, you could stand in. We spoke about the fear of being a
:34:16. > :34:19.good citizen. In extreme circumstances and if there is
:34:20. > :34:26.imminent harm, that is proper, people should do what they can. But
:34:26. > :34:30.be careful, they often make matters worse all become victims themselves.
:34:30. > :34:37.We have a responsibility to get there as quickly as we can and
:34:37. > :34:47.support people. People might think if I do not do something, how can I
:34:47. > :34:49.
:34:49. > :34:58.live with my conscience? We have started to have a dialogue with
:34:58. > :35:03.people in the community about this. People want the support, having a
:35:03. > :35:11.debate about being a good citizen. It is keeping an eye open, looking
:35:11. > :35:16.to see what is happening around them. The main focus of our charity
:35:16. > :35:22.his children and young people. People want to do something. They
:35:22. > :35:32.are just looking for support. To be able to phone up a helpline, phone
:35:32. > :35:35.
:35:35. > :35:44.the police will advise. They can do that anonymously. Social workers to
:35:44. > :35:51.an amazing job. They get unfair criticism. They are damned if they
:35:51. > :35:55.do and damned if they do not. should not rely on high-level
:35:55. > :35:59.intervention. The intervention is there for ourselves and stop
:35:59. > :36:08.looking out for people, the mother in the supermarkets struggling with
:36:08. > :36:14.children -- and start looking out for people. She might be getting to
:36:14. > :36:21.a point of frustration. Do not focus on her hitting the children.
:36:21. > :36:27.Focus on doing something to make sure it does not happen. In the
:36:27. > :36:35.last 30 years there has been a cult of individualism. And now you just
:36:35. > :36:39.live your own life. In doing so, you could invade somebody else's
:36:39. > :36:46.autonomy. It is the quality of relationships with others. There
:36:46. > :36:52.are limits. We need to desire those relationships. And we benefit. It
:36:52. > :37:00.is a reciprocal relationship. comes back you? It is a cultural
:37:00. > :37:05.change we need rather than organisational. We prize autonomy.
:37:05. > :37:11.But the idea that you become more autonomous when you break down
:37:11. > :37:15.social connections is fundamentally untrue. Over the past decades we
:37:15. > :37:23.have seen the erosion of connections to each other to the
:37:23. > :37:27.extent to which we can call ourselves a society about relations.
:37:27. > :37:31.The state has not backed off, it has become more interventionist
:37:31. > :37:41.because it has had to fill the spaces left when we have retreated
:37:41. > :37:41.
:37:41. > :37:49.from each other. The it has encouraged that, that is by CCTV.
:37:49. > :37:57.It has a positive side and also an interfering side. There is a middle
:37:57. > :38:04.ground that is between being a nosy neighbour. But looking around to
:38:04. > :38:10.see what is going on. How many times do you bump into somebody
:38:10. > :38:15.because they are going around like this? We need to be aware. If you
:38:15. > :38:21.help people, you feel good. It is about caring for people. And the
:38:21. > :38:24.way you would like them to care for you. It is too easy to get
:38:24. > :38:31.sentimental about we should care for each other. People value
:38:31. > :38:36.privacy. Nobody has mentioned Cleveland very much. But to take
:38:36. > :38:39.that situation, which is rare, a low frequency type of event, and
:38:39. > :38:45.extrapolate from that that we should check on our neighbours
:38:45. > :38:51.because maybe they have people locked up, it is like the crack
:38:51. > :38:57.down on civil liberties. If you go down the scale, there are other
:38:57. > :39:02.cases. Were she not take rare events and go too far with them. --
:39:02. > :39:12.we should not. The issue is about looking out in the community for
:39:12. > :39:16.
:39:16. > :39:26.people who might need help. If you want to report things to police,
:39:26. > :39:32.they will need a bigger budget. There are lines where there would
:39:32. > :39:38.be a serious risk. Something getting to the level where
:39:38. > :39:43.something is going on, but people know where that line is. A split-
:39:43. > :39:46.second decision? It depends on what is going on. Over time, you get
:39:46. > :39:55.suspicious about what is going on next door, and you think you have
:39:55. > :40:00.to report it because you have not seen this person for six months.
:40:00. > :40:05.People in their own homes, you should feel safe. Domestic abuse is
:40:05. > :40:08.an insidious crime. Unfortunately, people do not call us and we know
:40:08. > :40:13.people must have heard the screaming and shouting. The women
:40:13. > :40:19.and the men themselves in some cases feel isolated. If they had
:40:19. > :40:25.confidence to call the police, we could come and react to that.
:40:25. > :40:30.was the Panorama programme, keeping it in the family, what should we do
:40:30. > :40:40.about domestic abuse? Keep it in a small tight-knit community, that is
:40:40. > :40:41.
:40:41. > :40:45.wrong? Sharia couts. You have people wanting to help people. The
:40:45. > :40:51.mechanism through which you are now civic society to influence the
:40:51. > :40:57.state. You have the police and social services, and they should
:40:57. > :41:02.reflect the desire of civic society to help other people.. You cannot
:41:02. > :41:06.knock on the door and say, is anything wrong? You have to create
:41:06. > :41:10.an institution within the police and social services where they
:41:10. > :41:16.respond to our desire for people -- for things to be done in the right
:41:16. > :41:23.way. It requires research where they make the right decisions. In
:41:23. > :41:28.Canada, there was an issue of the train bombing plot. The person who
:41:28. > :41:33.reported it was a man who heard a concert -- who had a conversation
:41:33. > :41:38.with another person of his congregation and he thought he had
:41:38. > :41:42.been made radical. He reported that and lives were saved. You have to
:41:42. > :41:46.make a decision based upon the police and social services having
:41:46. > :41:51.the confidence of the general population. Then you are able to go
:41:51. > :41:58.away from that is my neighbour, I take care of my neighbour. The way
:41:58. > :42:08.society operates, we do not know who is next to us. I will be back
:42:08. > :42:09.
:42:09. > :42:12.to talk about heaven in a minute. Thanks. You can join in all this
:42:12. > :42:14.morning's debates by logging on to bbc.co.uk/the big questions and
:42:14. > :42:19.following the link to the online discussion. And our last question,
:42:19. > :42:24.do humans needs the idea of heaven? Next week is Pentecost. We are not
:42:24. > :42:30.on. If you would like to be in any -- be in the audience, you can send
:42:30. > :42:36.an e-mail to audiencetbq@mentorn.tv. We are in Bristol on May 26th, and
:42:36. > :42:40.then in Warrington on June 9th and brine on 23rd June. The Bible said
:42:40. > :42:45.if you believe in Jesus and live a God-fearing life, heaven will be
:42:45. > :42:50.your reward. Other faiths have other ideas, but they have similar
:42:50. > :43:00.concepts of life everlasting, provided you keep to the rules. Do
:43:00. > :43:03.
:43:03. > :43:09.humans need the idea of heaven? Why do we need the idea of heaven?
:43:09. > :43:15.believe it exists. It is the moral issue of responsibility. If you do
:43:15. > :43:21.something wrong, you disobey the law, there are consequences. That
:43:21. > :43:31.is associated to your conscience. When your body comes to an end, it
:43:31. > :43:34.
:43:34. > :43:40.is practical that your soul remains. It transfers to another place.
:43:40. > :43:46.makes you do right? That is the other benefit of heaven, creating a
:43:46. > :43:49.mechanism through which society can navigate difficult situations.
:43:49. > :43:56.people who believe in heaven have done some of the most appalling
:43:56. > :44:04.things in history. You have to look at whether the faith they had hit
:44:04. > :44:14.two contained that behaviour. If it does, the faith stands condemned --
:44:14. > :44:16.
:44:16. > :44:22.-- put faith they followed condoned that behaviour. You have to be
:44:22. > :44:26.careful in terms of judgment on the religion not being a judgment on
:44:26. > :44:32.the person and the other way around. It is about doing good things
:44:32. > :44:36.because they are good, not about bonus points! That is true. For
:44:36. > :44:42.Muslims, the higher state of pleasure is to contemplate the
:44:42. > :44:47.divine being and the here after. At lower levels, it is a physical
:44:47. > :44:56.pleasure. Everybody requires the fulfilment of what they deserve on
:44:56. > :45:03.earth somewhere else. John Lennon picked upon this, taken in reverse,
:45:03. > :45:09.he is saying we should live on earth. The first thing we learn as
:45:09. > :45:13.Muslims when we study our faith, show mercy to people on earth. So
:45:13. > :45:19.that the one in heaven shows mercy to you. Trying to live and ethical
:45:19. > :45:29.life on Earth. Whether you believe that transfers into the hereafter,
:45:29. > :45:29.
:45:29. > :45:39.that is another question. The Koran describes it in earthly terms.
:45:39. > :45:39.
:45:39. > :46:24.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 44 seconds
:46:24. > :46:28.Dark-eyed Virgin's. That is very Paradise, in a sense, is saying, in
:46:28. > :46:38.the hereafter, if your soul has done good on earth, you are able to
:46:38. > :46:42.
:46:42. > :46:52.contemplate everything that is happiness in the hereafter.
:46:52. > :46:53.
:46:53. > :46:57.Do we need this? People can see it was developed as a social construct.
:46:57. > :47:01.One might suggest there are other social constructs to encourage
:47:01. > :47:07.people to do good things and we don't need an idea of anything
:47:07. > :47:12.celestial. The real question which has not been asked, leaving aside
:47:12. > :47:17.terrorism and atrocities, do people behave better...
:47:17. > :47:24.Because of heaven? That is what we are focusing on.
:47:24. > :47:31.The question is, does believing in heaven make you behave better? The
:47:31. > :47:38.psychological studies on that are equivocal. When it comes to atheists
:47:38. > :47:43.and other religious groups, there is a different case. There is a paper
:47:43. > :47:52.in a psychological journal in the last year, a critique of this. If
:47:52. > :47:56.you look at all of the studies, it is mainly focusing on this process
:47:56. > :48:02.shall sentiment, so that is the test. Does believing in this stuff
:48:02. > :48:07.make you a better person? It is a comfort thing as well.
:48:07. > :48:12.Does it make you happy? That is another question. Studies have been
:48:13. > :48:22.done on this. It is very difficult to tease apart whether happiness
:48:22. > :48:27.from religion comes from believing, or the community that religion
:48:27. > :48:34.gives. Community is a great thing, it makes you happy. The beliefs, I
:48:34. > :48:44.don't necessarily think they matter. This gentleman here. You have been
:48:44. > :48:48.
:48:48. > :48:54.in our audience before. You belong to a spiritualist church.
:48:55. > :49:02.On a weekly basis, I see the comfort religion gives people. That there is
:49:02. > :49:06.a loving, caring place you pass over to when you die. That gives people
:49:06. > :49:10.on a weekly basis the comfort that other things in the world probably
:49:10. > :49:15.cannot give. And knowing your loved ones are
:49:15. > :49:20.there as well. There is a Mark Twain quote which is
:49:20. > :49:24.famous, which counteract that. I do not fear death in view of the fact I
:49:24. > :49:29.have been dead for billions of years before I was born and had not
:49:29. > :49:36.suffered the slightest inconvenience from it!
:49:36. > :49:42.Need I say more? The danger is that we create a human
:49:42. > :49:46.construct of heaven, pearly gates, you are in, you are out, model. My
:49:47. > :49:51.construct is there is something beyond this life, and part of the
:49:51. > :49:57.religious experience is grappling with that. Let me tell you a story.
:49:57. > :50:05.My son goes to this school. I first came across my son when I saw the
:50:05. > :50:12.ultrasound of him in the hospital. His heartbeat. I left that to go and
:50:12. > :50:17.take a funeral of a woman who in the night had died. She had had a great
:50:17. > :50:22.life. There were a lot of tears and joy about that life. On that day, I
:50:22. > :50:29.saw the power of love before life and love afterlife. It is grappling
:50:29. > :50:34.with that idea, there is something beyond. We use metaphors to
:50:34. > :50:38.understand. The meaningfulness of our existence, family, is that it
:50:38. > :50:44.can't just be about this life. I try to find a sense of the presence
:50:44. > :50:48.beyond which will take me to a place. I don't think I will become a
:50:48. > :50:54.better person. My search for meaning is enhanced by that sense of
:50:54. > :51:00.something beyond what is now. You need the inevitable
:51:00. > :51:03.counterbalance the idea of hell? The idea of hell for me is distant from
:51:03. > :51:09.that presence of love, God and beyond.
:51:09. > :51:15.That this is all life is. That would be a description of hell.
:51:15. > :51:19.It is true that the material world is not just the anything berries.
:51:19. > :51:28.But you are right in saying, as well as the heavenly realms, there is
:51:28. > :51:33.hell. Hell in the plural. There are many realms. It depends. It is in
:51:33. > :51:37.our hands what happens to us after we die. The actions we do in this
:51:37. > :51:43.life will determine what happens to us in the next life. Reincarnation
:51:43. > :51:51.is part of the Buddhist belief. And so we understand we have been
:51:51. > :51:56.existing since before time. Heaven and hell, if you cannot get to grips
:51:56. > :52:04.with, you only have to think of it as being a heavenly state of mind,
:52:04. > :52:09.or a hellish state of mind, which you can experience on this earth.
:52:09. > :52:15.Is this all the same person? Consciousness is not something that
:52:15. > :52:18.is born with the body. It inhabits the body. But a consciousness is not
:52:18. > :52:24.born of the body because it is not a physical thing.
:52:24. > :52:29.There is no evidence consciousness is not a physical thing. I don't
:52:29. > :52:35.know what a lot of those words actually mean, consciousness,
:52:35. > :52:41.realms. Maybe scientists have been looking at it. It doesn't mean
:52:41. > :52:46.anything in a... Science is now beginning to
:52:46. > :52:52.understand that the mind is actually not part of the physical body.
:52:52. > :52:56.No, it's not. We are reducing all of our existence
:52:56. > :53:01.down to electrical pulses and tiny little protons and neutrons. That,
:53:01. > :53:07.for me, is meaningless. I want something beyond that to make sense.
:53:07. > :53:11.Regardless of what you want, the universe...
:53:11. > :53:15.You are saying only your world view counts.
:53:15. > :53:20.I did not say that. You said I cannot have my view.
:53:20. > :53:23.As they were saying in the American election campaign, you are entitled
:53:23. > :53:31.to your own opinion but not you are entitled to your own opinion but not
:53:31. > :53:37.your own evidence... The consciousness made -- may be
:53:37. > :53:43.manifested in electrical pulses, but it is beyond that.
:53:43. > :53:48.Can I ask, from a scientific point of view. If you have matter, matter
:53:48. > :53:51.cannot give rise to consciousness. Consciousness is not a physical
:53:51. > :53:57.thing. That is begging the question, you
:53:57. > :54:04.asked the question at the beginning. There is no such thing as free
:54:04. > :54:10.world? That comes from where? Your consciousness and awareness nurse --
:54:10. > :54:20.awareness. The three of you will meet again, I
:54:20. > :54:21.
:54:21. > :54:26.know that. In this life or the next. What I think from the economic point
:54:26. > :54:30.of view, there is interesting work thinking about how we can model
:54:31. > :54:36.heaven as an economic construct. I think this is completely bonkers.
:54:36. > :54:40.However, the argument is quite simple. People who believe in heaven
:54:41. > :54:45.are likely to change their behaviour on us. We can think of heaven in
:54:45. > :54:51.some sense as being a large myth. Everybody needs some kind of myth,
:54:51. > :54:57.some kind of way of understanding. We talked about community which
:54:57. > :55:01.can, the way we talked about community, it was very much in terms
:55:01. > :55:07.of a particular concept, and idealisation. Because we were
:55:07. > :55:14.working from that, not empirically observed facts, something had to be
:55:14. > :55:18.assumed. We had to beg the question in order to get the discussion
:55:18. > :55:26.going. There is no way we can decide this matter otherwise. If heaven
:55:26. > :55:33.helps people to be better on earth. To paraphrase Saint Teresa loosely,
:55:33. > :55:38.after her visions, "that was very interesting, I must get on now and
:55:38. > :55:43.scrub the floor. " if we can do that, we have a chance of getting to
:55:43. > :55:47.the stage where we can create a community and go back to the first
:55:47. > :55:54.question. Chris, when you talked about foreign aid as a moral
:55:54. > :56:01.question, but ended it being utilitarian.
:56:01. > :56:04.There is a young woman at the back who has had her hand up for a few
:56:04. > :56:09.minutes. But you don't want to say anything about heaven?
:56:09. > :56:15.If it gives people comfort, that is good. But you only get one life and
:56:15. > :56:23.you have to make the most of this. Sorry I did not see you.
:56:23. > :56:29.I think, the fact that people who are born into Christianity need that
:56:29. > :56:33.sense that they are doing good things for heaven in the end. People
:56:33. > :56:37.born without Christianity, they get that feeling they are living on this
:56:37. > :56:44.world to enjoy this, and they can do good things but they do not need a
:56:44. > :56:54.reward. Christians, they think, they do not need a reward. If heaven
:56:54. > :56:56.
:56:56. > :57:03.doesn't exist, then you should enjoy the sake of doing good things.
:57:04. > :57:09.If, by some atheistic miracle, Stewart got his way, and people
:57:09. > :57:15.stopped believing in heaven, would this world be a worse place morally?
:57:15. > :57:21.Well, I think that actually the view of the afterlife, particularly that
:57:21. > :57:27.proposed by the Abraham hit regions, is nothing short of pernicious,
:57:27. > :57:30.divisive, and an impediment to the moral development of children in
:57:30. > :57:38.particular. Some justification is for that. I currently work in
:57:39. > :57:44.education. Just the other day, I was involved in a discussion with
:57:44. > :57:49.six-year-olds, one of whom was insisted she was not allowed to play
:57:49. > :57:54.with particular little toys for the fact that, if she did, because they
:57:54. > :57:59.were non-Christians, they would go to hell -- hell. I have seen Muslim
:58:00. > :58:06.children are not allowed to engage in poetry writing. And one girl,
:58:06. > :58:12.when asked by another child why she wore a headscarf, she informed us
:58:12. > :58:16.that if she did not, she would go in the fire. This is damaging.
:58:16. > :58:23.A short time left. Would we be better off without it?
:58:23. > :58:28.I think some people clearly need it. As I hear myself saying that, it is
:58:29. > :58:34.patronising. We, economists... We are out of time.