:00:27. > :00:31.afternoon. Welcome to The Big Questions. We're at Ashton Park
:00:31. > :00:34.School in Bristol and I'm Nicky Campbell. The beheading of Drummer
:00:34. > :00:37.Lee Rigby shocked the entire nation this week. How could such an
:00:37. > :00:40.atrocious act could be carried out in God's, or rather, Allah's name?
:00:40. > :00:44.Our first Big Question: Have British Muslims done enough to counter
:00:44. > :00:47.extremism? A competitive market in tax rates
:00:48. > :00:53.seems to be developing, not for the little people but for the corporate
:00:53. > :01:03.giants that bestride the globe. Our next Big Question: Is tax avoidance
:01:03. > :01:24.
:01:24. > :01:27.immoral? Welcome everyone to The Big Questions. Michael Adebolajo, one of
:01:27. > :01:31.the two suspects for the killing of Drummer Lee Rigby, was brought up in
:01:31. > :01:34.a Christian family but converted to Islam in 2003, after 9/11 and the
:01:34. > :01:36.invasion of Iraq. He was tutored by the infamous hate preacher, Omar
:01:36. > :01:39.Bakri Muhammed, who recalls Michael asking questions about when violence
:01:39. > :01:41.is justified. Despite billions of taxpayers' money being spent on
:01:41. > :01:43.counter-terrorist strategies since then, much of it aimed at Britain's
:01:43. > :01:53.Muslim communities, radicalisation continues here and now. Have British
:01:53. > :02:01.
:02:01. > :02:07.Muslims done enough to counter extremism? Julie Siddiqi, it is
:02:07. > :02:12.enough being done by Muslim communities? The first thing to say
:02:12. > :02:22.is that our thoughts go to the family and friends of Drummer Lee
:02:22. > :02:23.
:02:23. > :02:27.Rigby. It has been heartbreaking at every level, hearing it unfolding on
:02:27. > :02:31.the radio and the news, shock and disbelief that something like that
:02:32. > :02:38.could happen in such an open way. The question about what work has
:02:39. > :02:45.been done is a good question, which is why we are here. It is a fair
:02:45. > :02:51.question. Yes, it is interesting that most asking the question are
:02:51. > :02:59.Muslims today, and there is a question about the issue of
:02:59. > :03:04.extremism and what it is. I feel I am seeing extremism up and down the
:03:04. > :03:09.country the last few nights with people being attacked, but comparing
:03:09. > :03:13.it to 2005 and since then, a lot of mistakes have been made, but seeing
:03:13. > :03:21.this on the streets of London, clearly no one can be complacent and
:03:21. > :03:27.there is a lot of scope to do a lot more work. What more work? What
:03:27. > :03:32.needs to be done? I think it is not an easy one, and a lot of the work
:03:32. > :03:39.around bringing people together, actually talking about this issue,
:03:39. > :03:44.is complex. It is not black and white. It clearly isn't a black and
:03:44. > :03:50.white issue, but once we start to understand and see emerging the
:03:50. > :04:00.story behind these two people, the people they have been associating
:04:00. > :04:09.
:04:09. > :04:16.with, clearly more needs to be done about that. Ashgar Bukhari, you are
:04:16. > :04:25.looking sceptical. I am sceptical. Organisations should be out there
:04:25. > :04:31.doing things. It is very simple, teach young Muslim children that the
:04:31. > :04:36.anger they feel at the oppression around the world, across the muslin
:04:36. > :04:42.world, it is easily tackled peacefully and democratically. Teach
:04:42. > :04:46.them the way Martin Luther King taught black people they could make
:04:46. > :04:52.a change within society without killing anyone. The muscle
:04:52. > :04:57.institutions, not the people, have failed to do that. In the impact
:04:57. > :05:03.statement after the atrocity when it was said by apologising in such a
:05:03. > :05:11.stupid way, these pathetic Muslims are reinforcing the enemy's
:05:11. > :05:17.narrative, what does that mean? are claiming it is Islam to blame,
:05:17. > :05:24.the reason they have taken this violent action is because it is an
:05:24. > :05:32.Islamic obligation. Who are the pathetic Muslims? Muslim authorities
:05:32. > :05:40.claiming it is not foreign policy. think the difficulty with someone
:05:40. > :05:47.like Ashgar saying this, talking about Muslims forming institutions,
:05:47. > :05:52.and to put a blanket on everyone doing this for the last ten years is
:05:52. > :05:59.really an helpful. I would rather he worked with people. I would rather
:05:59. > :06:05.use out and worked with people like me, rather than sitting on the
:06:05. > :06:09.fringes. I am working to try to teach young Muslims the democratic
:06:09. > :06:14.values that organisations like yourselves are failing to do. When
:06:14. > :06:21.you have done it, then you can complain. Saying we need to get
:06:21. > :06:29.involved in democracy, they don't believe it. Teach them democratic
:06:29. > :06:39.values and stop covering for them. Are you teaching democratic values?
:06:39. > :06:40.
:06:40. > :06:45.I stood in the Parliamentary election and I am teaching it.
:06:46. > :06:51.were you apologising? We need to make it clear, the loss of Drummer
:06:51. > :06:58.Lee Rigby's life is wrong and of course we must be sorry for that, we
:06:58. > :07:03.must say to the family that our hearts go out to you. Those people
:07:03. > :07:09.have done it, they have claimed to do it in the name of God. There is
:07:09. > :07:14.no God in murder. They have claimed it is an Islamic act. They have done
:07:14. > :07:21.it in the name of Muslims, no Muslims would support that. My point
:07:21. > :07:27.is that we need to apologise to save these people have held Islam, they
:07:27. > :07:34.have hijacked it and they are attacking everyone. Secondly, why
:07:34. > :07:40.are they doing it? Lots of reasons. Foreign policy is one, there is also
:07:40. > :07:45.deprivation, discrimination, underachievement, poverty, a whole
:07:45. > :07:51.host of social issues. We need to do everything together. We need to do
:07:51. > :07:55.it together, not about only Muslims. It is Muslims and non-Muslims
:07:55. > :08:00.together. The last ten years we have been talking about muslins needing
:08:00. > :08:05.to sort their home out as soon as possible. We have got the narrative
:08:05. > :08:15.wrong. Christians, Sikhs and Jews coming together saying England is
:08:15. > :08:16.
:08:16. > :08:22.our home and we will sort it out together. These young men who have
:08:22. > :08:28.lost their way, how can anyone persuade them? They are less likely
:08:28. > :08:35.to listen to me than to you, but how can any person persuade them there
:08:35. > :08:39.is a method of expressing their discontent? Since 9/11, I have spent
:08:39. > :08:46.my life arguing for the importance of democratic space where we can
:08:46. > :08:52.talk about the difficult issues. We live in a free country. The movement
:08:52. > :08:56.has been a great buttress to the argument of extremists who want to
:08:56. > :09:01.hijack it for their own evil ends because they do want to clash, we
:09:02. > :09:05.cannot be in denial of that. In this country the majority of people are
:09:05. > :09:12.against the wars in Afghanistan and the war that happened in Iraq.
:09:12. > :09:17.they don't want to attack people brutally in the street. That is my
:09:17. > :09:21.point. Unfortunately, because politicians don't like to make the
:09:21. > :09:27.link between foreign policy and atrocities at home, they want to say
:09:27. > :09:31.it is nothing to do with politics. It is, but at the same time, as the
:09:31. > :09:36.muslin, I do feel the need to distance myself. It is not a
:09:36. > :09:42.pleasant thing to have to do when a paedophile is not from a certain
:09:42. > :09:46.background, or people don't feel they have to condemn, but I
:09:46. > :09:56.acknowledge people are feeling scared and it is part of humanity to
:09:56. > :09:57.
:09:57. > :10:03.reach out and that knowledge this, and we do feel genuine compassion
:10:03. > :10:09.for Lee Rigby's family. I don't know what was in the minds of those
:10:09. > :10:14.people. The terrorists themselves said clearly why they did the
:10:14. > :10:19.killing, they said they did it and I for one night, a tooth for a tooth,
:10:19. > :10:26.you will never find peace until we find peace. When a woman challenged
:10:26. > :10:32.them to stop this, they said I'm sorry you have to see this but
:10:32. > :10:38.children are dying in their lands. I am not justifying it, I am
:10:38. > :10:44.explaining it. You can stop it by institutions, the thousands of
:10:44. > :10:49.mosques in this country, the pathetic mosque leaders teaching and
:10:49. > :10:54.educating Muslim children that there is a democratic way. The
:10:54. > :11:01.suffragettes did it, Martin Luther King did it, why can't we do it?
:11:01. > :11:05.would agree with you from the 2001 narrative, in 2013I go to many masks
:11:05. > :11:10.and I have not had a single weekend where I have not gone to an area to
:11:10. > :11:15.talk about these issues to tell people Britain is our home, we care
:11:15. > :11:19.about this country. It is an important narrative. This morning I
:11:19. > :11:24.received an e-mail that came from Birmingham, an Asian man was
:11:24. > :11:29.brutally murdered by some racist folks. The family has asked me if I
:11:29. > :11:36.would be kind enough to go to the funeral prayer and addressed the
:11:36. > :11:41.crowd and condemn the violence act. Of course I would. EDL are nasty
:11:41. > :11:51.pieces of work, the BNP are racist and we need to stand up to them. The
:11:51. > :11:52.
:11:52. > :11:56.commonality between EDL and the BNP, and the folks that murdered Lee
:11:57. > :12:02.Rigby is that they share one platform and they are extreme in
:12:02. > :12:06.their views and we need to tackle that head-on. Racism, as well as
:12:06. > :12:15.extremism, they form part of the same problem that is causing the
:12:15. > :12:20.trouble today. We are not in any denial about extremists. People have
:12:20. > :12:30.come out, day in, day out, women's groups, young people's groups have
:12:30. > :12:53.
:12:53. > :12:55.openly said Chaudhry should not be allowed in this country. We had a
:12:56. > :13:00.conversation saying what is it you think we should be doing that we are
:13:00. > :13:05.not doing? Because I don't want to see violence on the streets of
:13:05. > :13:10.Britain. I didn't get any answer because the fact is we are doing
:13:10. > :13:15.these things. I am open to it. Nobody gains from this violence
:13:15. > :13:21.apart from the extremists. As a British Muslim, we are vulnerable
:13:21. > :13:28.both ways. Our citizens are not bombproof when extremists carry out
:13:28. > :13:31.this violence, and when awful things happen, we as a community are
:13:31. > :13:36.pointed out as a collective and now we are seeing the attacks on mosques
:13:36. > :13:41.so there is no vested interest in being complacent about it. What some
:13:41. > :13:45.people still don't get is why these young men who were British
:13:45. > :13:49.Nigerians, these suspects, and this happens in so many other cases as
:13:49. > :13:59.well, they feel more affinity with people from lands to which they have
:13:59. > :14:04.never visited than they do with their fellow citizens. Why more
:14:04. > :14:09.affinity with people from foreign lands? We need to call a spade a
:14:09. > :14:14.spade. We had no Muslim terrorism in this country until we had the
:14:14. > :14:20.illegal war in Iraq and we need to acknowledge that. That does not
:14:20. > :14:30.justify what happened in 7/7, but how did these people become
:14:30. > :14:36.
:14:37. > :14:46.radicalised? The new music out there -- mood music is to do with D3 Ms,
:14:46. > :14:51.the mollis, the mosques. There is a notion of Muslims are going to
:14:51. > :14:57.heaven and everyone else is going to hell. This then is translated in
:14:57. > :15:07.some mosques and many mosques giving them the pull pet or giving them a
:15:07. > :15:08.
:15:08. > :15:12.meeting space and most mosques have the supplementary school. That's
:15:12. > :15:22.ridiculous. Let me finish my point, please.
:15:22. > :15:22.
:15:22. > :15:25.It is not going down well? The truth is always bitter.
:15:25. > :15:28.There is conditioning and brain washing, it is coming from why? It
:15:29. > :15:35.is coming from the mosque and they believe, it the children are raised
:15:35. > :15:40.to believe they are better than others. There is the them and us
:15:40. > :15:45.narrative. How many Muslims are fully integrated into this society?
:15:45. > :15:50.Not many. Most of them, they have one foot out there. They bring the
:15:50. > :15:57.culture from Pakistani or wherever and they want to bring it here. You
:15:57. > :16:02.can't impose Muslim into -- Islam into Birmingham. We need an Islam
:16:02. > :16:12.that's relevant to this society. Some of us have been working, week
:16:12. > :16:13.
:16:13. > :16:18.in, week out... Julie, it is in the papers today research that you have
:16:18. > :16:23.been involved with. Do people, generally the British population, do
:16:23. > :16:28.they believe that Muslim communities are well integrated in our society?
:16:28. > :16:34.Well, the results were interesting. In the three days after Woolwich we
:16:34. > :16:38.saw this backlash or attacks or damage against nine mosques, around
:16:38. > :16:41.160 incidents of anti-Muslim prejudice and we expected that to
:16:42. > :16:46.trickle into public opinion towards Islam. The picture is more positive
:16:46. > :16:52.than the newspapers would have us believe. Especially among the young
:16:52. > :16:58.and just to be clear, the majority of Muslims in this country subscribe
:16:58. > :17:02.to national identity, share our values, pledge aleaguance to the
:17:02. > :17:10.democratic system as such and the view expressed by some on the
:17:10. > :17:16.far-right, but also in sections of our tabloid newspapers, the Leveson
:17:16. > :17:20.Inquiry was good to pick up on. This is somehow symbolic of a broader
:17:20. > :17:22.threat to the British society and that is not reflected in the
:17:22. > :17:30.evidence. It is not reflected in the data.
:17:30. > :17:35.There was one figure in the data today or in the poll today that 18
:17:35. > :17:43.to 24-year-olds, 38% of 18 to 24-year-olds say Muslims are
:17:43. > :17:48.compatable with the British way of life. Is that not worryingingly low?
:17:48. > :17:54.Well... Just to be clearThere is a sharp generational divide in Britain
:17:54. > :18:00.today and Britain is going through a generational drift. The over 60s on
:18:00. > :18:06.issues like immigration and their views towards Islam are increasingly
:18:06. > :18:12.and especially hostile on those issues. The young are far more
:18:12. > :18:16.accepting and at ease... Four out of ten. It is not great. There are
:18:16. > :18:22.challenges that remain, but the question for today is can Muslims do
:18:22. > :18:28.more? And the answer is we can all do more. Who is not integrated?
:18:28. > :18:31.38% feels that. It is a perception and you have got to ask where is
:18:31. > :18:39.that coming from? What about sections of the irresponsible
:18:39. > :18:45.British media who are fuelling... APPLAUSE
:18:45. > :18:53.Yous can't just blame the messenger. There is a problem. The Muslims are
:18:53. > :18:56.not fully integrated and you can supplies it and dice as you want.
:18:56. > :19:03.They are going to go back to their homeland.
:19:03. > :19:06.You have been trying to come in for a while. On Thursday, I went down to
:19:06. > :19:11.my local mosque at Streatham. They organised a public meeting. I went
:19:11. > :19:15.along to find out and listen to Muslims. They invited me up to the
:19:15. > :19:19.platform and I ended up having a debate and I heard these issues and
:19:19. > :19:23.this debate and one of the messages was they are trying to get out there
:19:23. > :19:27.with their message of love. With their message of peace and
:19:27. > :19:31.reconciliation and justice, but they can't get airspace to do it. If over
:19:31. > :19:35.the last six months we had been giving more time on the BBC, in the
:19:35. > :19:41.media, to those kinds of voices rather than people like UKIP, the
:19:41. > :19:45.world would be a much better place. The problem is, UKIP have a
:19:45. > :19:51.considerable elector ral support which in a democracy, you have to
:19:51. > :19:56.acknowledge. The problem with political debate, we are seeing a
:19:56. > :20:01.shift across-the-board where small minorities are super imposed on
:20:01. > :20:05.whole communities and we are stereotyping whole communities. We
:20:05. > :20:14.are seeing a rise in disability hate crime. We are seeing it across a
:20:14. > :20:18.range of issues. We are reaping what we sow.
:20:18. > :20:24.I am from Statham. We have been trying -- Streatham, we have been
:20:24. > :20:28.trying for years to bring the Muslim community in Streatham. The London
:20:28. > :20:33.mayor doesn't give us the ability to do it. The British people don't give
:20:33. > :20:41.us the chance to bring the youngsters together, to give them
:20:41. > :20:46.the democrat democratic way of living as a Muslim. Excuse me, can I
:20:46. > :20:52.finish? Can I finish, please? Muslims will know this. If you go
:20:52. > :20:57.into a mosque and say, " Looks I want to talk about kwps"? Can I
:20:57. > :21:03.finish, please. There is no politics in a mosque, get out. Is that the
:21:03. > :21:08.case? There's not the case. The case is, the ignorant people who don't
:21:08. > :21:13.give the abt for us to, the leaders of the Muslim society to do what
:21:13. > :21:17.they have to do. They give them no chance. Do you want funding?Funding
:21:18. > :21:23.and part of space, but we need a space that we can get... What
:21:23. > :21:27.another mosque? They are doing a good job. So many youths in this
:21:27. > :21:32.country, they are alcoholics, and some are drug addicts.
:21:32. > :21:37.Thank you, sir. What about this issue, you have
:21:37. > :21:44.debatdz, an gem -- debated an gem crowdry has been on this programme
:21:44. > :21:54.and his people have been on this programme. Another debate on the Big
:21:54. > :21:55.
:21:55. > :22:00.Questions was about football and one of an gem crowdry's -- an gem
:22:00. > :22:05.Choudhary people said they could use football stadiums as punishment. Is
:22:05. > :22:12.there a danger that people at home think that's what Muslims think?
:22:12. > :22:16.we have heard the statistics that we are hearing about per ception, the
:22:16. > :22:20.statistics is Muslims feel more at home. More British, more part and
:22:20. > :22:26.parcel of the wanting to be part and parcel this country. I would say
:22:26. > :22:31.that our organisation in the last four days, wave been overwhelmed by
:22:31. > :22:37.-- we have been overwhelmed by the good people of this country who want
:22:37. > :22:42.to come together and want to come together. They see there perception
:22:42. > :22:50.is one thing and reality is something different. But what are
:22:50. > :22:54.the mosques doing in return? It is just a simple question. Let me ask
:22:54. > :22:58.this question. There are approximately 3,000 mosques in this
:22:58. > :23:05.country, why couldn't they do alsingle open day in this country --
:23:06. > :23:11.do a single open day? Let me finish. There was an open day in the East
:23:11. > :23:17.London Mosque recently. I spoke at ten mosques last year. What about
:23:17. > :23:24.the rest of them? I know hundreds of mosques up and down the country...
:23:24. > :23:27.Stop lying. Stop lying. There are problems with mosques, to agree with
:23:27. > :23:33.management and resources. Stop giving excuses.
:23:33. > :23:37.Let me make my point. Mosques up and down the country, the 3,000 of them,
:23:37. > :23:40.we need to change the way they are managing the way and the way they
:23:40. > :23:46.are reaching out, but there is an issue here and that's five years
:23:46. > :23:50.ago, ten years ago when the 9//11 incident happened and the July 7th,
:23:50. > :23:54.the mosques may have been closer in their attitude. Ten years on, I
:23:54. > :23:59.believe there has been a seismic shift. They are didding more open
:23:59. > :24:09.days and hosting more programmes and I knee, so far until today -- I
:24:09. > :24:10.
:24:11. > :24:20.know, so far until today, some mosques never said no to me.
:24:21. > :24:28.
:24:28. > :24:31.You have debated with Tommy Robinson and Anjem Choudary.
:24:31. > :24:35.Do you think it is good to debate with these people? Do you think it
:24:35. > :24:42.is good to shine the light on them? It is vital. I think, you know, in
:24:43. > :24:46.Britain, in an open, democratic society, sunlight often is the best
:24:46. > :24:50.disinfectant however, I'm not sure in the sdas that followed the --
:24:50. > :24:55.days that followed the sickening attack in Woolwich it has been a
:24:55. > :25:01.great platform to give radical, extremists who don't reflect either
:25:01. > :25:11.the vast and overwhelmingly majority of Muslim, Christian, British
:25:11. > :25:12.
:25:12. > :25:16.sentiment, I don't think it has been a right to give a platform to people
:25:16. > :25:20.like Anjem crowd Choudary. We need more light than heat. We need to
:25:20. > :25:24.address the issues, in a clear and measured way. The Government has
:25:24. > :25:30.failed to consult and listen to what Muslims on the street, at the
:25:30. > :25:35.grass-roots level, MCB, mus lambic society of Britain -- mus lambic
:25:35. > :25:40.society of Britain, they have the singer on the pulse in how do we
:25:40. > :25:44.address grievances? How do we undermine that extremist narrative?
:25:44. > :25:49.How do we do the things that the previous Government did really well
:25:49. > :25:54.and the Government has not listened. You can't, you know, clamp down on
:25:54. > :25:58.somebody having a particular world view? No, you can't. But if the
:25:59. > :26:03.complaint from people like Tommy Robinson and the English Defence
:26:03. > :26:13.League and mosques and imams and Muslims across the country is, " We
:26:13. > :26:15.
:26:15. > :26:18.don't have a good enough basis for authentic Islamic teaching Q." Well,
:26:18. > :26:23.the Government has seen fit to cut funding going into communities,
:26:23. > :26:29.going into organisations like this. For example, if you lived in Finland
:26:29. > :26:33.and your kids were at school and you said we arrived in the country and
:26:33. > :26:39.we could do with support for the children here and the State says, we
:26:39. > :26:42.will help teach you Arabic and good Islamic studies. We don't really
:26:42. > :26:48.have that system of education in this country and it allows these
:26:48. > :26:52.young people to become radicalised. We have to recognise there is a
:26:52. > :26:57.problem around language. There is a problem around allowing individuals
:26:57. > :27:01.to become radicalised, but I think, Sir Malcolm Rifkind made a point
:27:01. > :27:06.this week and I hope it is something David Cameron will pay attention to.
:27:06. > :27:16.He said he wants to lead a if taskforce to look at addressing
:27:16. > :27:24.
:27:24. > :27:32.extremism in this country. Malcolm Rifkind has made... Please.
:27:32. > :27:38.All of these extremists. This is ye ideology that is seeping to the
:27:38. > :27:43.mosque. Sir Malcolm Rifkind made clear this week our secret
:27:43. > :27:47.intelligence services have questions to answer about their efforts to
:27:47. > :27:57.radicalise, we know that this organisation that one of the alleged
:27:57. > :27:57.
:27:57. > :28:02.killers that is been connected with and Anjem Choudary. Someone has come
:28:02. > :28:06.out in the press to give a statement to say he has been working with CIA.
:28:06. > :28:09.Uch of that will emerge -- much of that will emerge. Have the
:28:09. > :28:13.Government failed here or has previous governments failed here?
:28:13. > :28:16.Well, I don't think Government funding for teaching of Islam would
:28:16. > :28:21.make much of a difference, but I think teaching about Islam is
:28:21. > :28:24.essential in all of our schools so he people understand the multi-cull
:28:24. > :28:28.turm society that we -- multi-cultural society that we live
:28:28. > :28:32.in. Where Government funding could make a big difference that is about
:28:32. > :28:35.more integration. For instance, teaching of English for people who,
:28:35. > :28:41.for whom it is a second language and that perhaps has been cut in some
:28:41. > :28:48.places and I think that's a mistake particularly for women. My
:28:48. > :28:56.constituency in Bristol is one of the most multiilt os dshl multi-
:28:56. > :29:03.multiethnic in Britain. Women who come to my constituency office can't
:29:03. > :29:10.speak English even though they have been living here for 20 years. In
:29:10. > :29:14.ply, it might -- it might. Not speaking English doesn't cause
:29:14. > :29:16.terrorism. Empowering women can make a big did
:29:16. > :29:20.difference. The terrorists spoke English. They
:29:21. > :29:24.were English. They were born here and they were raised as non-Muslims.
:29:24. > :29:28.The reason why the Government funding and these initiatives will
:29:28. > :29:38.fail because they can't admit and thus cannot fund the fact that the
:29:38. > :29:43.root cause of this ises foreign polls -- of this is foreign policy.
:29:43. > :29:51.Richard? The problem of alienated young immigrants, men is a problem
:29:51. > :29:54.in itself when they latch on to a version of religon which is doubly
:29:54. > :29:59.legitimises their alienation you have a perfect storm. I don't see
:29:59. > :30:07.that it is clear yet that respectable majority of Islam could
:30:07. > :30:11.get nice and awfully integrated and democratic. That might make, if this
:30:11. > :30:16.alienation of this is a particular character might make these people
:30:16. > :30:26.more prone to listen - one of the things they are alienated from is
:30:26. > :30:28.
:30:28. > :30:32.their own people and their own majority religon. As a mother
:30:32. > :30:39.myself, for our children we have almost torn our hair out trying to
:30:39. > :30:43.find a place where we could get the best of both worlds. Good academic
:30:43. > :30:47.education with Islamic teaching has been so hard to find, and a lot of
:30:47. > :30:54.those parents who had been in my position set up Muslim schools and
:30:54. > :30:58.not a single person who has committed any extremist act has come
:30:59. > :31:05.out of those schools because there is a framework of education. A lot
:31:05. > :31:10.of people who come out of that grounds with gang culture, many of
:31:10. > :31:14.those are British and not immigrants have been born here, brought up
:31:14. > :31:23.here, disaffected young men who don't have anywhere to go and learn
:31:23. > :31:29.and education. The Prophet Muhammad came to... You know the culture of
:31:29. > :31:34.the tribes, you kill one of ours, we kill one of yours, he came to stop
:31:34. > :31:39.that and create law and order among young people and he was invited to
:31:39. > :31:43.do so. This is a question I want to ask the Imam because you can take
:31:43. > :31:53.many lines out of holy Scriptures and take them out of context. If a
:31:53. > :31:53.
:31:53. > :32:02.man came to you and said it says in the Koran, "I will instil terror
:32:02. > :32:07.into the hearts of the non-believers" , what would you say
:32:07. > :32:11.to him? A lot of people misread the Koran, often because they don't
:32:11. > :32:19.understand the language, the context in which it was revealed, and how it
:32:19. > :32:25.should be applied. God is saying, if you kill one innocent person it is
:32:25. > :32:29.like taking the lives of humanity. The Koran defines it very clearly,
:32:29. > :32:34.anyone who is guilty for crime should be tried in due process. In
:32:34. > :32:40.the same passage it says if you save one life it is like saving the lives
:32:40. > :32:48.of the whole of humanity. I say to you, if he is an innocent person and
:32:48. > :32:55.not a soldier, what do you say? There are five primary purses, to
:32:55. > :32:59.protect life, property, faith, and honour of people, if these people
:32:59. > :33:04.are talking about protecting lives and property, they are talking
:33:04. > :33:09.Islamic. The Islamic framework is simple, personal piece with the
:33:09. > :33:19.society around you, and if you are at war with people, constantly
:33:19. > :33:19.
:33:20. > :33:28.squabbling and threatening, can you please allow me to finish? They will
:33:28. > :33:33.have a counter for whatever he said. Let me finish my sentence. Prophet
:33:33. > :33:36.Muhammad, when he walked the streets, the Muslims would say the
:33:36. > :33:45.trusted person is walking. Unfortunately the image we have
:33:45. > :33:55.created is based on an -- a misunderstanding of Islam. It comes
:33:55. > :34:00.
:34:00. > :34:05.from these extremists. It doesn't help, does it? There we must leave
:34:05. > :34:15.this particular one, but peace be upon you, especially you! Thank you
:34:15. > :34:21.
:34:21. > :34:27.for taking part. I expect lots of you will have something to say as
:34:27. > :34:30.well. To have your say just logon to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions and follow
:34:30. > :34:34.the link to the online discussion. Or use our hashtag on Twitter. You
:34:34. > :34:38.can also send us your views about our next Big Question: Is tax
:34:38. > :34:41.avoidance immoral? Next week there's a pre-recorded special on the
:34:41. > :34:47.environment from here in Bristol but we'll be back live from Warrington
:34:47. > :34:49.on June ninth, then we're in Brighton on June 23rd.
:34:49. > :34:53.Google, Amazon, Apple, Starbucks, Fiat and many other companies too
:34:53. > :35:00.numerous to mention - can they be blamed for shopping around the world
:35:00. > :35:03.to get the best tax rate for their profits? Apple, for instance, paid
:35:03. > :35:07.just 2% on $74 billion on overseas income by taking advantage of a
:35:07. > :35:15.loophole in the Irish tax code. It may be in their shareholder's
:35:15. > :35:25.interests, it may be perfectly legal, but is tax avoidance immoral?
:35:25. > :35:27.
:35:27. > :35:34.From Oxfam, and Oxfam did an interesting and extensive report on
:35:34. > :35:40.this, the tax gap is huge, isn't it? The research we put out this week is
:35:40. > :35:45.looking at how much individuals are stashing offshore. They are all
:35:45. > :35:55.using tax havens so it is not just a case of corporate responsibility but
:35:55. > :35:57.
:35:57. > :36:03.rich individuals, and we found that $156 billion is being lost to
:36:03. > :36:13.developing countries and globally. The third of that is in British tax
:36:13. > :36:19.havens, in the overseas British Crown dependencies. How much more
:36:19. > :36:24.would we get? We would have $156 billion globally more to play with
:36:24. > :36:34.if those tax havens didn't exist. We have hundreds of thousands people
:36:34. > :36:39.
:36:39. > :36:45.queueing up at food banks, and that money is enough to end extreme
:36:45. > :36:49.poverty twice over. What about the self-employed plumber who is taking
:36:49. > :36:57.his profits out of one year and shifting them around a bit to lessen
:36:57. > :37:02.his tax liability to the next year? And also something for a rainy day?
:37:02. > :37:10.Is that immoral? The point is we have massive global corporations
:37:10. > :37:13.paying little to zero tax whilst ordinary people are tending to pay
:37:13. > :37:18.their fair share. It is very unlikely you will be able to find a
:37:18. > :37:24.plumber who can put their money of sharp and have an army of
:37:24. > :37:29.accountants. Is that immoral? Everybody has a responsibility to
:37:29. > :37:33.pay the fair amount of tax. If somebody has a business here, it is
:37:33. > :37:37.their responsibility to pay their fair share of tax. Everybody also
:37:37. > :37:47.makes a choice so the system itself is immoral and the numbers we put
:37:47. > :37:53.
:37:53. > :37:55.out this pretty clear, and whilst that is the case, who changes the
:37:55. > :37:57.system and who creates it? That is politicians and large companies who
:37:57. > :38:00.have a lot of sway over this. Small businesses don't have that
:38:00. > :38:03.opportunity. Alex Salmond says he is going to set a lower corporate tax
:38:04. > :38:08.rate of Scotland becomes independent so if the business moves its
:38:08. > :38:12.headquarters to Edinburgh as a result of that, is that tax
:38:12. > :38:17.avoidance? It is not about whether somebody is operating within the
:38:17. > :38:22.law, 85% of the British public believe even when something is
:38:22. > :38:32.within the law that doesn't make it right. They still think it is wrong
:38:32. > :38:33.
:38:33. > :38:38.for companies to avoid tax. What do you think? If you pay more tax than
:38:38. > :38:42.you are legally required to, you are effectively making a donation to the
:38:42. > :38:46.government so to say it is immoral to pay the minimum legally required
:38:46. > :38:50.is to say you have a moral duty to make donations to the government and
:38:50. > :38:56.I think that is obviously nonsense. Even if you do think people should
:38:56. > :39:01.be charitable, and again I don't think you have any obligation to be
:39:01. > :39:08.charitable... It is not about charity. There are rules that apply
:39:08. > :39:15.to ordinary people and rules that apply to powerful people. The head
:39:15. > :39:22.of Phones4U said that when he started his business he had offers
:39:22. > :39:27.flooding through the door offering tax avoidance schemes. The question
:39:27. > :39:32.asked was is somebody who pays the minimum amount of tax they can
:39:32. > :39:38.immoral, and I am saying no. In fact almost everybody does it. Those that
:39:38. > :39:43.cannot reduce their tax bill through these mechanisms, very few of them
:39:43. > :39:49.donate money to the government. They pay the minimum they are obliged to
:39:49. > :39:55.and nobody accuses them of being immoral. Nobody changes their views
:39:55. > :40:00.on this as the tax rates go up and down. As a society we choose
:40:00. > :40:05.everybody should pay X amount, we decide this is the right level and
:40:05. > :40:09.we should be paying it. The spirit of the law is clear. You shouldn't
:40:09. > :40:18.be deceiving people and tax avoidance is about pretending you
:40:18. > :40:22.haven't got the right amount of money. You can insist firms be
:40:23. > :40:31.straightforward and honest, to be above board. They are not deceiving
:40:31. > :40:36.anybody. This is what is behind tax avoidance. You go into the taxman,
:40:37. > :40:41.it is a fair fight, a well resourced tax office and you say this is the
:40:41. > :40:47.scheme, we can get past you and the taxman says that is legal, on you
:40:47. > :40:54.go. If you are an independent of the chain on the high street, you don't
:40:54. > :40:58.have the same... Bringing morality into the situation, it is a
:40:58. > :41:07.difficult shift. I would say that firms and people have an obligation
:41:07. > :41:15.to be good citizens and once... In terms of tax and you obey the law.
:41:15. > :41:21.You will get into a situation beyond doing anything you can get away
:41:21. > :41:24.with, it becomes voluntary to pay. I think firms have an obligation not
:41:24. > :41:29.to just dole out money to governments because they have an
:41:29. > :41:33.obligation to their customers to keep their products cheap, to their
:41:33. > :41:37.employees to keep in business and to their shareholders. Those
:41:37. > :41:44.obligations are clear as are their legal obligations. Don't import
:41:44. > :41:49.morality, it is too tricky. Morality is fundamental to this and the idea
:41:49. > :41:54.customers will get the worst deal if they ship their profits board is
:41:54. > :41:58.nonsense. As long as they are making a profit, they will stay in this
:41:58. > :42:02.country. They are taking from customers and not investing in their
:42:02. > :42:07.high street where they operate, if they get burgled they are taking
:42:07. > :42:14.advantages of the police service but not paying into it, taking with one
:42:14. > :42:20.hand and not giving back anything. think it is a very tricky situation
:42:20. > :42:24.in which you have successful popular NGOs and journalists on the left
:42:24. > :42:31.rabbiting on about this and what they are managing to do is produce a
:42:31. > :42:36.situation which firms get themselves into a beauty competition for your
:42:36. > :42:40.favour. That is fine but it may not be for the public good, but it
:42:40. > :42:46.definitely is not something that has been organised democratically. The
:42:46. > :42:52.tax system, flawed as it is, is democratic and when we improve it
:42:52. > :42:57.internationally it will be internationally more democratic.
:42:57. > :43:05.governments are unfairly lobbied. There is not a fairness here.
:43:05. > :43:09.cannot unfairly lobby the government. In our country companies
:43:09. > :43:15.did sweetheart deals where they paid less tax than they should have. The
:43:15. > :43:20.tax is set at a level to make it easier to people... I exploitation
:43:20. > :43:23.because they do benefit from the security in this country, which
:43:23. > :43:28.everybody pays into. The proportionality that they are paying
:43:28. > :43:36.into compared to the profits they gain is not fair. Some of these
:43:36. > :43:45.figures are extraordinary. Starbucks paid 8.6 million in total in UK
:43:45. > :43:51.taxes on sales of 3.1 billion. We have deals like the Goldman Sachs
:43:51. > :43:56.deal letting off 20 million quid in a deal with HMRC so they are
:43:56. > :44:01.negotiating their tax liability. Do you think companies have a moral
:44:01. > :44:07.imperative to pay as little tax as possible? Certainly they do, they
:44:07. > :44:13.have a duty to their shareholders. The management of a firm, agents of
:44:13. > :44:20.the owners of the firm, and they have a moral duty to the burners to
:44:20. > :44:22.minimise their costs and maximise their revenues. If there was an
:44:22. > :44:29.opportunity for reducing their tax bill and they didn't take it, they
:44:29. > :44:36.would be negligence. The problem here is this discussion is perverted
:44:36. > :44:45.by the pretence that firms are people, firms are not people. Firms
:44:45. > :44:49.cannot bear costs. One firm pays tax, the company cannot suffer,
:44:49. > :44:53.ultimately the cost is borne by some individual people. The three classes
:44:53. > :44:58.of people are the corporate tax burdens are the customers through
:44:58. > :45:03.higher prices, the staff through lower pay and the shareholders
:45:03. > :45:08.through lower dividends. The tax ultimately will fall on these people
:45:08. > :45:12.in some proportion, it varies a lot depending on economic
:45:12. > :45:16.considerations. These three classes of people bear the costs so when you
:45:16. > :45:21.say I want corporations to pay more tax, you are saying I want these
:45:21. > :45:27.people to pay more tax, and it would be a much better system if you are
:45:27. > :45:34.eradicated corporate tax or set it to zero, and then you can have a
:45:34. > :45:37.more transparent tax system, one less prone to avoidance.
:45:37. > :45:41.everybody else pays except the corporations? You are not
:45:41. > :45:45.understanding the point I just made. Everybody is paying. Corporations
:45:45. > :45:49.cannot pay. You are corporate through your
:45:50. > :45:54.pension fund. You are corporate through your employer.
:45:54. > :46:02.Corporation tax rates here, lower than Italy, hence fear is moving
:46:02. > :46:07.here. There is a race to the bottom going on at the moment. Is it good
:46:07. > :46:11.that Fiat moved here? We have to be careful about the con Dex in which
:46:12. > :46:18.the race -- context in which the race to the bottom takes place. One
:46:18. > :46:26.of the things that Christian Aid is concerned about, some countries are
:46:26. > :46:31.missing out. 160 billion could tackle global hunger. One of the
:46:31. > :46:38.questions is we recognise and the OECD and George Osborne recognises
:46:38. > :46:42.that the system is wrong and out moded. The tax system encourages
:46:42. > :46:47.this race to the bottom. It encourages this sense of competition
:46:47. > :46:52.in a way therefore, if we were, that's why we are calling along with
:46:52. > :46:59.other organisations for the G 8 to begin to address a global
:46:59. > :47:04.collaborative if you like... global tax rate? Not a tax rate, but
:47:04. > :47:09.a tax system. The tax system is wrong that is allowing people to
:47:09. > :47:14.shift their profits around. Would a global tax system
:47:14. > :47:19.acknowledged by the parties, would that that work? A fairer one. One
:47:19. > :47:22.that considers redistribution of wealth. Considers the poverty
:47:22. > :47:27.suffered by Third World countries including what happened in
:47:27. > :47:31.Bangladesh when the building clapsed. Remember big -- collapsed.
:47:31. > :47:37.Remember big companies were making their shirts over there and there
:47:37. > :47:41.was no health and safety laws. Our tax system needs to be overhauled.
:47:41. > :47:46.The State is too greedy. It takes too much money from people and
:47:46. > :47:52.wastes a lot of money. We need to cut the weighsage and become more
:47:52. > :47:55.efficient with the wastage. People who are less well off are paying a
:47:55. > :48:00.lot more than the bigger companies. That's unfair and we need to stop
:48:00. > :48:05.that. Creating a fairer system, a modern system would work for
:48:05. > :48:09.everybody. Jamie? As I tried to get across,
:48:09. > :48:14.corporates don't pay tax. They write the cheque, but the cost of it is
:48:14. > :48:18.borne by individual people. A global tax system? Well, a global tax
:48:18. > :48:24.system is a nightmare. I can see why governments like it because that
:48:24. > :48:31.gives you nowhere to hide. We don't want benefit cheats or tax cheats.
:48:31. > :48:37.We talk go scroungers all the time. We talk about ben bit cheats and --
:48:37. > :48:47.benefit cheats, the reality is that benefit cheats cost us 1. .2
:48:47. > :48:48.
:48:48. > :48:53.billion. The benefit is �1. 3 billion. The tax benefit system
:48:53. > :48:59.costs us �130 billion. This is a big massive issue especially in this
:48:59. > :49:03.time of austerity. Espotionly in this time of -- especially in this
:49:03. > :49:07.time of global economic crisis. I don't expect firms to pay over and
:49:07. > :49:11.beyond what they have to do. That's and unnatural and unrealistic to
:49:11. > :49:14.expect. Against human nature? So we have to
:49:15. > :49:17.work with human nature on this, but at the same time we have to accept
:49:17. > :49:22.something which is a fair. If we have a fairer system, more people
:49:22. > :49:26.can be taken out of tax. More people can pay less tax because at the
:49:26. > :49:34.moment it is disproportionate because poorer people are paying
:49:35. > :49:39.more. If it is illegal, is it immoral?
:49:39. > :49:42.Jamie's series is spot on. The trouble is, corporations and
:49:42. > :49:47.individuals don't necessarily follow that model. You have to look at
:49:47. > :49:55.their motivation. If they are doing something like locating themselves
:49:55. > :50:00.in Monaco which is a Grand Prix race driver might do... Or Dublin?Or
:50:00. > :50:06.selling their products out of Luxembourg, they are structuring
:50:06. > :50:12.their affairs to avoid tax. Not to he best serve the customer in
:50:12. > :50:16.Jamie's classical model. You need rewrite the global tax rules. The
:50:16. > :50:20.Government is making a start on that amongst the big club of economic
:50:20. > :50:25.countries, the OECD and the European Union because our tax laws are out
:50:25. > :50:30.of date. They were wherever in the aftermath of the First World War.
:50:30. > :50:33.They don't mention the internet and E commerce and that's why we need a
:50:33. > :50:39.change amongst all the big countries because we are losing and I agree
:50:39. > :50:47.with Oxfam, it is a problem for developing countries as well.
:50:47. > :50:51.So Jamie, Jamie, Jamie. So the sales that, the books, Amazon in
:50:51. > :50:56.Luxembourg, all the books and CDs that we're buying, that's helping
:50:56. > :51:01.the Luxembourg economy. How is that fair? Well, I don't see that it is
:51:01. > :51:06.helping the Luxembourg economy. is not helping our economy. I don't
:51:06. > :51:10.know why you think tax aches PEPs an economy.
:51:10. > :51:15.If you loot fornlers, of course that -- foreigners, of course that helps
:51:15. > :51:23.you. There is no addition to the economy. This idea that somehow, if
:51:24. > :51:29.you don't tax people more, you have lost. It is lost to the Luxembourg
:51:29. > :51:34.exchequer. Successful economies are the ones that have the higher
:51:34. > :51:44.proportion of revenue from the tax systems. In developing countries it
:51:44. > :51:47.
:51:47. > :51:50.is about 13%. The clun Christian Aid report we are he leased last week,
:51:51. > :51:57.we -- we released last week, there are approximatelies millions of
:51:57. > :52:03.people that -- there are millions of people that go to bed hungry
:52:03. > :52:07.tonight. Let's not make, none of us want be countries to be dependant on
:52:07. > :52:12.hand outs or aid. We want countries to have the right systems and the
:52:12. > :52:16.right kind of long-term hope in the system. It is not that good news is
:52:16. > :52:22.that poverty isn't there. I want to see what the audience is saying.
:52:22. > :52:27.This poor gentleman here - his hands have been up for ages.
:52:27. > :52:31.I am a hospital porter and I pay my tax and I am on pittance and the
:52:31. > :52:35.Government is destroying the NHS at the moment, but I would like to say
:52:35. > :52:40.why don't we all pay our tax? Why doesn't everyone pay tax? I don't
:52:40. > :52:45.really argue about paying my tax, but why don't we all?
:52:45. > :52:48.APPLAUSE Hi. Good morning. Afternoon. People
:52:49. > :52:53.keep talking about doling money out to the Government. The taxes should
:52:53. > :52:58.be going towards building roads and bridges which make them transport
:52:58. > :53:01.stuff to their business. Straight beside you?
:53:01. > :53:06.corporations are behaving as they should do within a particular moral
:53:06. > :53:11.framework. It is the Government that we need to lock at is immorally
:53:11. > :53:14.taxing bedrooms of the poorest and disabled people and that's what I
:53:14. > :53:18.find morally injust. I ask the corporations to pay their fair
:53:18. > :53:23.share. I wanted to go back to your earlier
:53:23. > :53:27.point. The sales made by the big organisations, but you were conflate
:53:27. > :53:34.flating the fact that you don't pay tax on sales, you pay it on profits.
:53:34. > :53:42.There is no point in saying that Amazon or Google make �2 billion
:53:42. > :53:47.worth of sales and pay �2 million worth of prochltth th -- profit.
:53:47. > :53:50.You are right. You were conflating two things, but the VAT lost to this
:53:50. > :53:57.country is extraordinary through the activities of Amazon. They source
:53:57. > :54:03.their products out of Luxembourg because the VAT rate is 3%. I never
:54:03. > :54:10.buy of Amazon, that's why they charge low prices because they are
:54:10. > :54:16.escaping 17% of VAT. The elephant in the room, who are these companies?
:54:16. > :54:25.Starbucks, Google, Amazon. They are American companies. Imagine they
:54:25. > :54:35.were Brazilian, Russian, Paraguayan. We should stop being afrightened of
:54:35. > :54:40.
:54:40. > :54:44.Youngle Sam and the -- stop being frightened of uncle Sam. We should
:54:44. > :54:51.do consumer boycotts. The idea that firms only contribute
:54:51. > :54:59.to society by paying taxes is crazy. They offer goods for sale that
:54:59. > :55:01.people buy. That's is -- that's a service. People talk about we are
:55:01. > :55:06.losing money because we are not getting taxes. Are you losing money
:55:06. > :55:10.because the tax rate on my income isn't 100%? It could be. Is all the
:55:10. > :55:15.money I keep a loss to the country? This is the language that's being
:55:15. > :55:18.used. Any tax that isn't collected is a loss. Is a burden. That's how
:55:18. > :55:22.you will phrase it. Somebody up here said that people are being taxed on
:55:22. > :55:26.their bedrooms. No, they're not. There is a restriction on the number
:55:26. > :55:30.of bedrooms you are allowed to get paid for out of other people's
:55:30. > :55:34.taxes. That isn't a tax on you. Right, you are receiving something
:55:34. > :55:39.free from other people's taxes. This is being, there is an inversion
:55:39. > :55:42.going on. Whereby any time I don't take something from you, I'm said,
:55:42. > :55:51.you are being immoral because I'm not getting your stuff. It is a loss
:55:51. > :55:56.to me a that I haven't taxed you more.
:55:56. > :56:00.Emma, you didn't like that? everybody avoided their taxes, this
:56:00. > :56:06.he system would fail. Countries would fall apart. Let me finish,
:56:06. > :56:11.please. So the problem is that when companies are making choices to
:56:11. > :56:16.really, really minimise and this is not minimising through transparent
:56:16. > :56:19.business practises in line with the law, they are minimising through
:56:19. > :56:23.legal loopholes, loopholes in the system that allow them to take
:56:23. > :56:26.advantage and avoid as much tax as possible and governments by failing
:56:26. > :56:29.to tighten up the law so it is not possible, of course, that's a moral
:56:29. > :56:32.choice because somebody has to pay. So when riches individuals and big
:56:32. > :56:38.multinationals are not paying, we are all paying. Somebody has to pick
:56:38. > :56:41.up the tab. Richard? I would be much more
:56:41. > :56:46.worried about this if I didn't know the rich Governments in the world
:56:46. > :56:50.are sitting around in the OECD are sitting around trying to work out a
:56:50. > :56:54.sensible reform. I doubt it would satisfy you. It won't address the
:56:54. > :56:59.moral thing on which you are plain wrong. I think the under lining
:56:59. > :57:03.anxiety about international tax is about to go through several years of
:57:03. > :57:07.much improvement. So I think weigh could take the chill pill here.
:57:07. > :57:09.the chill pill, he says! principles underlying that
:57:09. > :57:13.conversation they are having is important. It is about the kind of
:57:13. > :57:18.world we want to live in and the kind of country we want to live in.
:57:18. > :57:24.It is no good what highing behind the rhetoric of corporations. We are
:57:24. > :57:30.talking about real people and real people making the decisions. . ..
:57:30. > :57:33.Happy to hide behind this piece of his rhetoric. I like it when Eric
:57:33. > :57:40.Schmidt says when the Government sorts this out, which they ought
:57:40. > :57:45.because it is a mess, we will pay up. But don't ask us to work out how
:57:45. > :57:50.we volunteer and give money away because it is crazy. He doesn't say
:57:50. > :57:53.that. The donors to parties are benefiting
:57:53. > :57:58.from the tax avoidance. We have vested interests.
:57:58. > :58:01.Are they made together? You said it! They are in it together. That's why
:58:01. > :58:04.we haven't had the change over the years and there needs to be a
:58:04. > :58:08.popular movement. People raising these questions can about morality
:58:08. > :58:12.and the kind of society we live in and we need boycotts and we are
:58:12. > :58:21.seeing it is starting to happen and that's why European leaders...
:58:21. > :58:30.shall we go for our coffee? You are getting together and you
:58:30. > :58:35.have not your moral nougsz and -- notions and I see want to live in