:00:24. > :00:26.Questions, live from Pyramid in Warrington. I'm Nicky Campbell. On
:00:26. > :00:29.Friday, the United Nations launched its biggest-ever appeal, seeking $5
:00:29. > :00:32.billion to pay for humanitarian aid for Syria. The pictures of the
:00:32. > :00:36.devastated city of Qusair, after its fall to government forces on
:00:36. > :00:42.Wednesday, shocked the world. Hopes are fading fast for the proposed
:00:42. > :00:48.Geneva peace conference. Our first Big Question... Is now the time to
:00:48. > :00:51.arm the Syrian opposition? The Children's Commissioner for England,
:00:51. > :00:53.Maggie Atkinson has issued an urgent call for schools to cover
:00:54. > :00:56.pornography in sex and relationship classes. She is concerned children
:00:56. > :00:59.can readily access sexual, sometimes violent and sadistic imagery and
:00:59. > :01:09.that this may affect their attitudes to relationships and the opposite
:01:09. > :01:10.
:01:10. > :01:14.sex. Our next Big Question... Should porn be on the school curriculum?
:01:14. > :01:19.This week, for the first time ever in Britain, a rap artist is topping
:01:19. > :01:28.the Christian & Gospel music charts. He is with us today - Guvna B -
:01:28. > :01:38.which stands for God's Unique Vessel Now Assigned. Our last big
:01:38. > :01:45.
:01:45. > :01:48.question... Welcome, everybody, to that both sides in the Syrian war
:01:49. > :01:53.had been guilty of terrible atrocities. Britain and France
:01:53. > :01:57.claimed to have evidence that chemical weapons have been used, and
:01:57. > :02:01.refugees on rafts were turned away from Greece. It is estimated that
:02:01. > :02:05.more than 10 million Syrians, 4 million of them children, will need
:02:05. > :02:14.urgent help before the end of this year. Is now the time to arm the
:02:14. > :02:20.Syrian opposition? It is such a copper situation, this, the Russians
:02:20. > :02:25.are arming the government, Hezbollah are involved as well, we have is
:02:25. > :02:30.rainy and involvement - should we not steer well clear of this?
:02:30. > :02:35.think it depends on what outcome you want. If you want to simply see the
:02:36. > :02:39.death toll mount and mount, if you want Syria to be a deserted country,
:02:39. > :02:43.with most of its population in the surrounding region as refugees, and
:02:43. > :02:48.if you want to see the increase of the atrocities and massacres that we
:02:48. > :02:52.are seeing almost on a daily basis, then yes, I think you should steer
:02:52. > :02:55.quite clearly out of this situation. But if we as a member of the
:02:55. > :02:59.international community decide that the reason why the United Nations
:02:59. > :03:01.came together was to save lives, to have the responsible are due to
:03:01. > :03:07.protect innocent civilians, then we should start doing things
:03:07. > :03:12.differently. In the past 24 months, we have been sitting back at most
:03:12. > :03:18.and observing all using indirect methods to support. Unless we want
:03:18. > :03:21.to change the stalemate and prevent more killing, and do what the
:03:21. > :03:28.international community says, which is, time to remove Bashar al-Assad,
:03:28. > :03:31.then I can see no other way than arming the rebels. But who are the
:03:31. > :03:36.rebels? That is the thing. The accusation is that some of the
:03:36. > :03:40.people who Syria would end up with would be the kind of people who, if
:03:40. > :03:45.they were in this country, would be under 24-hour surveillance, and we
:03:45. > :03:49.would be trying to chuck them out. Some very unpleasant people...
:03:49. > :03:53.have got to keep things in proportion. We have not got any
:03:53. > :03:57.statistics today to say that those extreme elements make up anything
:03:57. > :04:02.more than singledigit percentages of the overall opposition. These
:04:02. > :04:05.extreme figures have been in there pretty much out of our design,
:04:05. > :04:11.because we, as an international community, from the beginning, did
:04:11. > :04:17.not support any opposition, so we created this vacuum, we allowed
:04:17. > :04:24.these rebels to go in. When you are so desperate, you do not question
:04:24. > :04:26.the ideology of the hand which is helping you get out of the driving
:04:26. > :04:31.water. You simply grab onto it and ask questions later, and these guys
:04:31. > :04:35.have built up a big capacity in Syria. We have had decades now, and
:04:35. > :04:38.more than �50 billion spent on three disastrous wars in the Islamic
:04:38. > :04:42.world. I am interested to hear that you say we should do things
:04:42. > :04:46.differently, and I think we should. We should keep out of wars and
:04:46. > :04:50.conflicts which do not concern us. We should involve the UN, we should
:04:50. > :04:55.have a strategy, which is what we have been distinctly lacking over
:04:55. > :04:58.the last ten years. Once you embark on a process of arming people, which
:04:58. > :05:05.even you say we do not know who they are, and by the way, the analogy
:05:05. > :05:12.which appeals to me, these guys are the most capable, and I am talking
:05:12. > :05:16.about the jihad is to units of the opposition, the most capable...
:05:16. > :05:19.Giving weapons, particularly things like anti-aircraft weapons, to
:05:19. > :05:28.people like that is rather like giving toys to little kids in the
:05:28. > :05:33.playground, because sooner or later, these weapons will come back to bite
:05:33. > :05:39.us. Once you embark on this kind of body, we are embarking on a path to
:05:39. > :05:43.war. We are engaging in war. Let's not be unclear about the
:05:43. > :05:46.implications of that. Ultimately, and this is the agenda of the
:05:46. > :05:55.opposition, we will be drawn into something we do not understand and
:05:55. > :05:59.we are not equipped to deal with. think you need to explore the point
:05:59. > :06:03.more K fully. Those people you said were the most capable, they are not
:06:03. > :06:09.the most capable because the EU or the United Nations made them so, it
:06:09. > :06:13.is because they have their own sources and channels of funding
:06:13. > :06:17.absolutely. They are not waiting for Mr Cameron to give their weapons.
:06:17. > :06:22.When we sit back and allow Saudi Arabia to do that, or whoever else,
:06:23. > :06:26.then we are creating this vacuum. A moderate opposition is in existence,
:06:26. > :06:30.and it is expecting and calling for support, which we have failed to
:06:30. > :06:36.provide. As a Syrian, it is insulting when people talk about the
:06:36. > :06:40.risk of what happens if we give these weapons. These armed launches
:06:40. > :06:48.that will bring down a tank or even a helicopter, they are not a risk to
:06:48. > :06:53.the UK. What if they end up in the arms of the regime? These weapons,
:06:53. > :06:55.if we are worried about us over here, then no terrorist attack has
:06:55. > :07:02.ever been done with an anti-tank missile which was given to the
:07:02. > :07:08.missal least. -- to the Middle East. What is to say they will not be
:07:08. > :07:13.captured by the Assad regime? not just go and throw weapons, you
:07:13. > :07:17.train people to take out Assad's defences. But the insult is that the
:07:17. > :07:20.risk potentially is not for Syrians, because Syrians are already
:07:20. > :07:24.dying, the National committee is worried about one thing, which is
:07:24. > :07:28.the risk of potential retaliation against Israel. As a Syrian, to be
:07:28. > :07:33.told that we are not supplying you with weapons because it might risk
:07:33. > :07:36.the life of an Israeli, is an absolute insult. I am not talking
:07:36. > :07:45.about Israelis. I am talking about what we do. This is a Syrian
:07:45. > :07:54.problem. We have become involved, we started to major civil wars... Up to
:07:54. > :07:58.100,000 people have died. 200,000. How can we stand by? 1000 people
:07:58. > :08:02.died in Iraq last month. Is it suggested we intervened there again?
:08:02. > :08:07.There are people in the United States who suggest we should. This
:08:07. > :08:09.is a potential quagmire. We should have learned by now. We have lost
:08:10. > :08:16.600 British life is, we have killed thousands and thousands of Muslims
:08:16. > :08:22.in these wars. I think what is more important here is the people of
:08:22. > :08:26.Syria. Instead of looking at weapons, we need to look at the
:08:26. > :08:29.people of Syria, who are dying right now. By the time this programme
:08:29. > :08:33.finishes, hundreds of people are dying already. We need to look at
:08:34. > :08:37.them as humans, just like the Holocaust. I believe that if the
:08:37. > :08:43.Allies had intervened earlier, they would have saved millions of lives.
:08:43. > :08:47.We sit back, we talk about things, to decide why people are dying, then
:08:47. > :08:51.we will write books and journals later on to condemn the killings,
:08:51. > :08:54.but this is the time to stop the killings right now, and to arm the
:08:54. > :09:03.people of Syria, so they can defend themselves against the Hitler of the
:09:03. > :09:11.day. Let's learn from history. We witnessed 22 years of civil war in
:09:11. > :09:16.Lebanon. I live to seven years of them. It was hell. I lived from 1981
:09:16. > :09:22.to 1988 in Lebanon. It was a world war in Lebanon. Now, IC world war in
:09:22. > :09:29.Syria. Everybody is involved in Syria. Every superpower is involved.
:09:29. > :09:36.When they poured weapons into Lebanon, did they solve the problem?
:09:36. > :09:45.No, they did not. More bloodshed, more hatred, more everything. But
:09:45. > :09:50.when did we see the civil war in Lebanon starts to move towards a
:09:50. > :09:56.solution? When they sat altogether in Saudi Arabia, all of the
:09:56. > :10:03.Lebanese, and started talking to each other. Would arming them, the
:10:03. > :10:08.threat of lifting the embargo, would that concentrate minds and bring
:10:08. > :10:17.them to the negotiating table? because you cannot fuel a fire with
:10:17. > :10:21.gasoline, and expect the fire to... What is the point of arming, is it's
:10:21. > :10:25.to stop the conflict, is it to lessen the conflict, is it to save
:10:25. > :10:32.lives, is it to bring people to the conference table? Why is it any
:10:32. > :10:38.business of ours? The gentleman over here spoke very sternly about, it is
:10:38. > :10:42.their problem. It is not. The British is a democratic, outward
:10:43. > :10:49.looking, world power, and the reason why they intervene is when the need
:10:49. > :10:53.in terms of the humanitarian search on the ground -- situation on the
:10:53. > :10:57.ground matches the strategic needs. What is happening over there right
:10:57. > :11:01.now is that the Assad regime, together with the Iranians and
:11:01. > :11:05.Hezbollah, are fighting a war where they are all in. By all accounts,
:11:05. > :11:08.they are turning it around and winning. I am afraid to say, it is
:11:08. > :11:13.not just the 80,000 people that have been killed, all that alone should
:11:13. > :11:16.be enough, it is the fact that these people are all in, they are on the
:11:16. > :11:22.other side of a struggle that we must win under all circumstances,
:11:22. > :11:25.and the rebels are no longer able to hold the position. So, we must, at
:11:25. > :11:33.the very least, immediately, offer the kind of assistance which will
:11:33. > :11:36.arrest this turnaround. Why is this a struggle that we must win? Just
:11:36. > :11:41.one last point, the Assad conference which is being planned is a
:11:41. > :11:50.pipedream which it is very difficult to understand how anybody believes
:11:50. > :11:54.that at this stage, any conference, like that, would work. The British
:11:54. > :11:59.interests which are at stake over there, if you look at what is going
:11:59. > :12:02.along with our conflict with Iran, at what Hezbollah is doing, and the
:12:02. > :12:06.kind of general regional peaceful picture which should be happening,
:12:06. > :12:09.it is something which is very grave in terms of our relationships in the
:12:09. > :12:16.Gulf, in terms of some of our strategic needs in terms of
:12:16. > :12:20.resources and so forth. Absolutely valid concerns for the government.
:12:20. > :12:23.The next cry we will get will be for no-fly zones, then it will be safe
:12:23. > :12:33.havens, then it will be full on military intervention, on the
:12:33. > :12:37.
:12:37. > :12:40.ground. That is what the United States Armed Forces are extremely
:12:40. > :12:45.reluctant... If my -- if I may ask, do we have a dog in this fight?
:12:45. > :12:55.and if we put our dog in it, it will get very badly savaged. We are
:12:55. > :13:01.already involved. We are involved in every way. I am sorry, I do not
:13:01. > :13:11.commend the Prime Minister at all, because he and Mr Hague, all the
:13:11. > :13:13.
:13:13. > :13:17.statements they have produced were gobbled it can rubbish. They have
:13:17. > :13:20.managed to get this embargo turned around. Mr Hague should be commended
:13:20. > :13:24.for the way that he has done that. They have been responsible enough to
:13:24. > :13:33.make clear that Parliament will get a vote on it. I think they have
:13:33. > :13:36.handled this very well. Like ink 18 months ago, they should have fully
:13:36. > :13:45.supported the international conference. The international
:13:45. > :13:48.conference is our only chance to sit together and find a way to stop the
:13:48. > :13:53.bloodshed. I am not here to commend anybody other than the mothers in
:13:53. > :13:57.the refugee camps and the brave soldiers. We keep talking about the
:13:57. > :14:02.arming of the rebels or otherwise, if you have an ounce of
:14:02. > :14:06.understanding of what justice means, we have got a side that continues
:14:06. > :14:12.openly to receive sophisticated missiles, SCUD missiles that he has
:14:12. > :14:16.used in his own country, Assad has used them inside, he receives
:14:16. > :14:22.military personnel from Iran and from Hezbollah, and absolutely, from
:14:22. > :14:29.the Russians he is receiving the intelligence and the consultancy,
:14:29. > :14:39.and if you want to prevent it... Toggle it is a massive game of chess
:14:39. > :14:41.
:14:41. > :14:45.being played on this soil. I totally agree with Frank. It is bizarre to
:14:45. > :14:49.hear this from the British. The British people have been bringing
:14:49. > :14:53.these two places, helping other nations... It is striking to hear
:14:53. > :14:58.this. It is like saying we are stepping away from the Bosnian
:14:58. > :15:05.massacre at the time. This is the way you are putting it. I am very
:15:05. > :15:10.glad you mentioned Bosnia. Excuse me. When you are interfering in a
:15:10. > :15:15.Muslim country, you are helping civilians. I was a soldier in Bosnia
:15:15. > :15:23.and Kosovo, and in Iraq. I am glad you mentioned Bosnia, because that
:15:23. > :15:30.was a war we could intervene in and could... Why can't we intervene in
:15:31. > :15:37.Syria? Because we don't have the resources. In Bosnia, the Russians
:15:37. > :15:43.were not supporting the Republic of Serbs. There was not an
:15:43. > :15:51.anti-aircraft system. Bosnia, of course, is less than a 10th of the
:15:51. > :15:55.size of Syria. This was a war we as NATO, and bear in mind it was the
:15:55. > :16:01.United States predominantly, NATO could intervene in and succeed in.
:16:01. > :16:11.Syria is a very different matter. No, it's not. Talking about British
:16:11. > :16:16.making peace, I wonder what some Syrians would make of that matter.
:16:16. > :16:20.That doesn't help when you have 80,000 people dead there. I don't
:16:20. > :16:25.agree with you that we are able -- unable to match the Russians
:16:25. > :16:30.strategically in the Middle East. I would be upset if that was the case.
:16:30. > :16:36.Haven't we learned our lesson about intervention? We are not talking
:16:36. > :16:40.about British troops intervening. We are talking about helping... By the
:16:40. > :16:47.way, it is possible to separate out the elements of the opposition. The
:16:47. > :16:51.Al-Qaeda element exists, but it is perfectly possible to work with
:16:51. > :17:01.General Idris and the Free Syrian Army to separate that our
:17:01. > :17:02.
:17:02. > :17:07.appropriately. Can you? Can you separate? Of course we can.We know
:17:07. > :17:16.who General Idris' forces are. On the ground, do you know who is
:17:16. > :17:19.controlling Aleppo? How can you control, when the arms flow and when
:17:19. > :17:26.the weapons flow? There is absolutely no way to control where
:17:26. > :17:31.these weapons are going. What about the Christians in Syria at the
:17:31. > :17:35.moment? We have lost half of the Christians. Questions are like
:17:35. > :17:40.Syrian the Citizens. I don't want to give them more value than other
:17:40. > :17:44.citizens in Syria. Churches have been destroyed, mosques have been
:17:44. > :17:51.destroyed, people have been displaced... Do you want to push
:17:51. > :17:56.more arms in the country? This is total madness! Is this leading to
:17:56. > :17:59.what is already a sectarian nightmare? It is leading to a
:17:59. > :18:05.sectarian nightmare, but the conversation has to be about, what
:18:05. > :18:11.is the cost of inaction? It is not just if we do this terrible things
:18:11. > :18:16.will happen. Terrible things are already happening. Let's go to the
:18:16. > :18:20.audience I agree with the gentleman at the end there. We should stop
:18:21. > :18:26.approaching the situation through a strategic political viewpoint. We
:18:26. > :18:35.should try to get involved in compassion, through providing
:18:35. > :18:39.infrastructure, not weapons. This is where Syrians loosed their truck --
:18:39. > :18:43.lose their trust in the international community. They call
:18:43. > :18:51.themselves the friends of the Syrian people. We are talking about the
:18:51. > :18:54.most developed nations in the world. Wealthy nations, the West, Europe,
:18:54. > :19:01.but we still have children dying in refugee camps. We have lost our
:19:01. > :19:06.confidence. Iraq is a stain, and Syria is paying the price. But you
:19:06. > :19:12.have to think about other complex, such as in Rwanda, where a million
:19:12. > :19:16.people died where we did absolutely nothing. As a Syrian, excuse me for
:19:16. > :19:20.not buying the resources argument. To me, it is not something I don't
:19:20. > :19:30.want to comprehend. We watch people dying in their hundreds of
:19:30. > :19:32.
:19:32. > :19:38.thousands. We watch half the country flea and being refugees. Rwanda was
:19:38. > :19:46.mentioned. That non-intervention is a scar on the conscience of the
:19:46. > :19:51.world, isn't it? Yes, but look who the problem was in Rwanda. It was a
:19:51. > :19:54.few thousand guys with Kalashnikovs. Had we gone in early and big, the
:19:54. > :19:59.international community may have been able to do something. But
:19:59. > :20:04.here, we have gone past this point. We are at risk of getting in a
:20:04. > :20:08.serious quagmire. The mistake we made in previous campaigns was not
:20:08. > :20:16.involving the United Nations. We have antagonised Russians and the
:20:16. > :20:20.Chinese, in the Libya campaign, for example. Why is that? Because we
:20:20. > :20:25.have threatened their commercial interests with Assad? They don't
:20:25. > :20:31.trust us because we seem to have hoodwinked them over Libya. Whether
:20:31. > :20:39.we like it or not, the Russians have a much of an interest in Syria as we
:20:39. > :20:49.do. We are not here to argue for what the Russians want. We are here
:20:49. > :20:55.to argue for what the British ones. We need to help those forces in the
:20:55. > :21:05.region. What about your friend over their? Jenna mac it is not a civil
:21:05. > :21:07.
:21:07. > :21:11.war in Syria into your mouth. It is a revolution against a dictatorship.
:21:11. > :21:17.It is a revolution against a dictatorial regime. We should help
:21:17. > :21:25.people to reach their dignity and their democracy. What do we do with
:21:25. > :21:30.that? What kind of Syria do you want at the end of it? We want a Syria
:21:30. > :21:36.that is peaceful for all religions and all people on the planet. We
:21:36. > :21:40.want it to be peaceful, whether secular, Islamic or democratic. The
:21:40. > :21:47.important thing is what the people of Syria want. Have we asked them
:21:47. > :21:55.what they want? They want to get rid of this Hitler-like dictator, Bashar
:21:55. > :21:58.al-Assad, who has the support of Iran. We hear all the time that Iran
:21:58. > :22:06.is developing nuclear weapons. They are playing an active role in this
:22:06. > :22:11.conflict. Do we want them to have a stronger role? Assad has, to date,
:22:11. > :22:15.killed more than 100,000 people. He is not stopping. They have
:22:15. > :22:19.slaughtered civilians, systemically bombed hospitals, one that places
:22:19. > :22:24.where civilians are. When opposition fighters are trying to take
:22:24. > :22:29.civilians out, civilians are killed. This is taking place right
:22:29. > :22:35.under our noses. We need to do something about the Assad regime.
:22:35. > :22:42.Thank you. This debate is going to go on. If you have something to say,
:22:42. > :22:44.please go to our website. You can contribute on Twitter as well. We
:22:44. > :22:48.are also debating this morning, Should porn be on the school
:22:48. > :22:53.curriculum? And Is rap music a way to God? Please also make any
:22:53. > :23:00.comments you would like about this programme.
:23:00. > :23:03.Basically, porn is everywhere. That is the title of the report issued by
:23:03. > :23:09.the Office of the Children's Commissioner, which calls for urgent
:23:09. > :23:12.action in an age where sadistic violence and imagery is two clicks
:23:12. > :23:16.away. There are calls for the Department of Education to make sure
:23:16. > :23:23.all schools covered the safe use of the Internet and employed
:23:23. > :23:27.professionals to help young people's resilience to pornography
:23:27. > :23:33.and its affect on their relationships. You are horrified by
:23:33. > :23:38.the prospect of having porn on the school curriculum. Why are you so
:23:38. > :23:43.horrified about putting it into context for children, explaining how
:23:43. > :23:49.it can objectify and dehumanise, and teaching it in the context of loving
:23:49. > :23:53.relationships? Why is it horrific? These lessons are not about how to
:23:53. > :23:58.avoid pornography and its dangers. They are all about exploring
:23:58. > :24:01.pornography and embracing it in your life. The lessons are about
:24:01. > :24:11.embracing Colonel Griffey? That is not what the Children's Commissioner
:24:11. > :24:11.
:24:11. > :24:15.is suggesting. The Government is taking advice from a body who has
:24:15. > :24:19.just published an online magazine for teachers about how to deliver
:24:19. > :24:28.pornography lessons in school. They are saying it should not be limited
:24:28. > :24:31.to sex and relationships lessons. The message is not, don't watch porn
:24:31. > :24:38.cos it is dangerous. The messages, watch porn but do not believe
:24:38. > :24:43.everything you see. Make sure there is a video camera in your bedroom.
:24:43. > :24:48.Practice safe sex. Go to the clinic regularly. Those are the things that
:24:48. > :24:55.this is suggesting. Is that what this is about? Not at all. For many
:24:55. > :25:00.years, we have watched pornography. Pornography in itself is not
:25:00. > :25:05.necessarily a problem. It is the use of it, and particularly now it is
:25:05. > :25:08.available on the Internet, the impact it is having on young people
:25:08. > :25:12.particularly, on their brain development and their sexual
:25:12. > :25:19.conditioning. These are all things that young people need to be aware
:25:19. > :25:27.of. We cannot stop them accessing it. But you don't need to promote it
:25:27. > :25:31.in schools. I agree, and I think you are taking a very extremist point.
:25:31. > :25:36.Look at what the sex education Forum is saying. They have an online
:25:36. > :25:40.magazine. You can go to their website and look at it. There are
:25:41. > :25:46.lessons on how to teach children about pornography, how to access it,
:25:46. > :25:52.how to make it part of your life. Sex is great, pornography can be
:25:52. > :25:56.great. Sex is great, and when we tell young people that sex is not
:25:56. > :26:06.great and pornography is awful, what happens is they see it, they try it
:26:06. > :26:07.
:26:07. > :26:12.and they think we are lying. I want to go back a little bit. About 12
:26:12. > :26:16.years ago, when my daughter was three years old, I realised I was
:26:16. > :26:20.raising her in a sexualised environment. The environment she was
:26:20. > :26:24.born into was more sexualised than anything I had ever known
:26:24. > :26:28.previously. I set about, as a journalist, to explore the
:26:28. > :26:32.environment and see how I could protect her. I looked more into it
:26:32. > :26:38.and I became aware that there were dolls that were dressed as hookers.
:26:39. > :26:43.In the UK, we have not done enough research on how early sexualisation
:26:43. > :26:48.affects children. It affects them deeply, certainly in terms of the
:26:48. > :26:52.hardwiring of the brain. There are a number of academic subjects which
:26:52. > :27:00.correlate the problems of early sexualisation is. But you just said
:27:00. > :27:05.that knowledge was power. Yes, but since when did the states become the
:27:05. > :27:10.parent? It is up to the state -- it is up to the parents to educate
:27:10. > :27:16.their children, not the state. are saying that knowledge is power,
:27:16. > :27:22.but we are also saying that human sexuality is not normal. That is not
:27:22. > :27:30.what I am saying. I am not an anti-porn campaigner. Porn is out
:27:30. > :27:38.there, and so is human sexualisation. This is obviously
:27:38. > :27:44.informing teenage boys' attitudes to sex. But on Google and so on, it
:27:44. > :27:48.should not be two clicks away. think society needs to take more
:27:48. > :27:53.responsibility for protecting young people, absolutely. But until we get
:27:53. > :28:00.to that point, we need to make sure there are other steps in place for
:28:00. > :28:04.education. We try to do that with Alcatel and nicotine. -- alcohol and
:28:04. > :28:09.nicotine. But we know that young people get hold of alcohol and
:28:09. > :28:16.cigarettes from a young age. That is why we have to educate, for those
:28:16. > :28:19.young people who will manage to get hold of it. You have introduced the
:28:19. > :28:29.idea of nicotine. What would happen if we had cigarette vending machines
:28:29. > :28:34.in schools? No one is saying that we will have porn DVDs on sale in
:28:35. > :28:43.schools. That is not what it is about. Ex-teacher, foster father as
:28:43. > :28:48.well. We can sit here and debate the disadvantages of pornography, but
:28:48. > :28:52.that is not what this is about. My role as a teacher and a parent, and
:28:52. > :28:58.our role in society, is to prepare children for the lives they are
:28:58. > :29:03.going to face. Not for a fairytale life we want them to live. I was
:29:03. > :29:06.responsible for the provision of sex education as a teacher. I also
:29:06. > :29:11.taught lessons about drugs. I didn't want them to take drugs, but we had
:29:11. > :29:15.to face that. I taught them about racial discrimination as well. We
:29:15. > :29:21.have to teach them about the reality of their lives, whether we agree or
:29:21. > :29:27.disagree with it. It is our duty. It is not about giving them a website
:29:27. > :29:32.address and telling them to check out the porn site. Is this
:29:32. > :29:37.dangerously close to promoting pornography? Of course it is. If you
:29:37. > :29:43.look at what the sex education Forum is suggesting, they are giving less
:29:43. > :29:49.than ideas to teachers. The website they are suggesting as a resource to
:29:49. > :29:54.use is one where kids can go on, and it is everything from bondage to
:29:54. > :29:58.beginners to the A-Z of pornography. The message is not how to avoid
:29:58. > :30:08.pornography, it is how to get it into your life. And Griffey is bad,
:30:08. > :30:17.
:30:17. > :30:27.I'm sorry. -- pornography is bad. There is a lady who has been shaking
:30:27. > :30:27.
:30:27. > :30:30.her head from the off here. I just think this in systems that we are
:30:30. > :30:36.going to be promoting pornography in schools, it is nonsense! It is about
:30:36. > :30:42.empowering children. In what way? What we need to do is to empower
:30:42. > :30:47.them and educate them in what is a good, healthy relationship. They
:30:47. > :30:51.need to recognise that what they are seeing is wrong, and that usually
:30:51. > :30:55.women are being exploited, and we should not accept that. And what is
:30:55. > :30:58.a good relationship tests because that does not come across off and
:30:58. > :31:03.enough in sex education, unfortunately, we do not talk enough
:31:03. > :31:10.about the importance of good relationships. Relationships and
:31:10. > :31:14.love, yes. If we look at academic studies on porn, they will give you
:31:14. > :31:20.some shocking statistics. For example, porn is directly linked to
:31:20. > :31:29.rape. Let me finish. Diana Russell has written for the University of
:31:29. > :31:33.Oxford... Toggle it is a contentious area. It has been shown conclusively
:31:34. > :31:43.in my opinion that porn is linked to sexual violence and to sexual
:31:44. > :31:46.
:31:46. > :31:55.deviancy. Societies where talk about sex is suppressed, Saudi Arabia is a
:31:55. > :31:59.good example... Finland has recently banned pornography. Violent
:31:59. > :32:04.pornography has been restricted, not pornography. At 15, you can buy
:32:04. > :32:14.pornography. We should get our facts right. 19 years old, violent
:32:14. > :32:20.pornography. Pornography on its own, violent or non-violent, is directly
:32:20. > :32:28.linked, according to Diana Russell, to rape. Pornography is such a broad
:32:28. > :32:33.title, which covers erotica of every type. Have you read these works?
:32:33. > :32:37.Yes, I have, and there are a number of different research projects. The
:32:37. > :32:41.problem is that experts cherry pick the research to prove their point of
:32:41. > :32:47.view. You are absolutely right, there have been some research papers
:32:47. > :32:51.demonstrating some links between some forms of pornography, not all
:32:51. > :32:54.forms, some forms. But equally, there have been papers written which
:32:54. > :33:00.demonstrate that there is absolutely no link whatsoever. That is the
:33:00. > :33:10.reality of the research. Correlation and cause and effect are two
:33:10. > :33:13.
:33:13. > :33:22.different things. Things like thesite.org, it is a brilliant
:33:22. > :33:27.resource for young people... What I consider the best way I can bring
:33:27. > :33:30.teenagers are not to be abusive towards women, to have a healthy
:33:30. > :33:33.attitude towards sex and relationships is to say to them, do
:33:33. > :33:39.not look at pornography. Once those images are in your mind, you will
:33:39. > :33:44.not get them out again. You are treading on dangerous trajectory. --
:33:44. > :33:54.territory. And get if you do that, you have not prepared your children
:33:54. > :33:54.
:33:54. > :33:59.properly. What you have just done is to say that your children cannot...
:33:59. > :34:04.Pornography is such a broad spectrum that what is the lesson, if you were
:34:04. > :34:08.to be observing one of these lessons, what would you hope, for
:34:08. > :34:11.14-year-olds, for example, what would you hope that they would learn
:34:11. > :34:14.from it? They need to know realistically what we are talking
:34:15. > :34:24.about when we say pornography. Some genres are more dangerous than
:34:25. > :34:27.
:34:27. > :34:32.others. What about page three?It is a pornographic image, but we have
:34:32. > :34:36.long since decided that it is not going to be damaging to the young
:34:36. > :34:42.people of this country. But also we need to talk about the possibility
:34:42. > :34:45.of addiction, because addiction is really happening. I am seeing more
:34:45. > :34:47.and more young men have been affected by pornography addiction,
:34:47. > :34:51.and people whose lives have been devastated by it, because of not
:34:51. > :34:55.knowing... How would these lessons in school affect that? It is about
:34:55. > :35:00.understanding the potential, in the same way that we would teach about
:35:00. > :35:05.alcohol, and we say that there are lots of risks inherent in alcohol,
:35:05. > :35:11.generally we do not promote abstinence. How they view women?
:35:11. > :35:14.Indeed, and how they view themselves. We always talk about
:35:15. > :35:16.tomography affecting female sexuality, but it has a huge impact
:35:16. > :35:19.on young men as well. There is growing evidence between excessive
:35:19. > :35:23.pornography use and erectile dysfunction. There are a lot of
:35:23. > :35:32.young men whose brains have become so conditioned by pornography, that
:35:32. > :35:38.they are not able to perform in a loving relationship. I think raising
:35:38. > :35:47.awareness to the challenges, if you are addicted, if you are absorbed by
:35:47. > :35:51.this virtual world, is very important. But to live in a lie,
:35:51. > :35:57.that I cannot prevent young people from looking, it is not realistic.
:35:57. > :36:04.But as a priest, as an educator, as parents, we need to raise the
:36:04. > :36:08.awareness of society of the negatives, the challenges, and the
:36:08. > :36:13.positives of a loving relationship. Like drugs, I never forget, when I
:36:13. > :36:19.was in Beirut, one single piece of advice, which just stuck in my head
:36:19. > :36:28.- the lady said to me, a doctor, Katie, she said to us, there are
:36:28. > :36:38.things in life you should not try to know the devastating effects. One of
:36:38. > :36:38.
:36:38. > :36:43.them is drugs. Alcohol is a drug... Yes, but you can try it, and you do
:36:43. > :36:50.not get addicted. But some drugs, if you try them, you get addicted. Some
:36:50. > :36:54.drugs. So, you have to raise the awareness of our young people.
:36:54. > :37:02.are different genres of drugs. Caffeine is a drug as well. But
:37:02. > :37:06.absolutely, do not try cocaine, crack cocaine. Can porn be good for
:37:06. > :37:14.a relationship? It can be, it can offer benefits, it can cause
:37:14. > :37:17.addiction, but it can be beneficial. Having taught in this area, one
:37:17. > :37:21.important aspect of this is discussion, creating a forum for
:37:21. > :37:24.debate. It is a gross disservice to our young people that we cannot
:37:24. > :37:28.allow them the opportunity to talk about something, whether we agree
:37:28. > :37:38.with it or not, to talk about something which is affecting their
:37:38. > :37:41.lives. The lady there... I am a teacher as well and I agree totally.
:37:41. > :37:46.If you do not discuss and the kids do not have the chance to be honest,
:37:46. > :37:51.you do not know what you are dealing with. If they are just nodding dogs,
:37:51. > :37:57.you are almost making it like a forbidden fruit. And talk to the
:37:57. > :38:02.parents as well. Kids do not want to talk to their parents. I went to the
:38:02. > :38:06.kind of school which some of you seem to be advocating, where there
:38:06. > :38:10.was no sexual education, and parents were expected to do the job, and I
:38:10. > :38:15.saw girls getting pregnant underage, and boys look that porn, and
:38:15. > :38:21.possibly the girls as well. Also, something which is being ignored
:38:21. > :38:25.here is that for some people, pornography is about something which
:38:25. > :38:29.is life affirming and bringing joy to their lives, and for others, it
:38:30. > :38:32.brings damage, and sometimes it results in a negative view of women.
:38:32. > :38:36.Some are still it features performers who are being coerced
:38:36. > :38:39.into doing what they are doing. If this is not discussed, then people
:38:39. > :38:45.will be watching it without reflecting on it. You think we are
:38:45. > :38:49.missing something? It is interesting what you say about how some silver
:38:49. > :38:55.and do not want to discuss with their parents. That is true. -- some
:38:55. > :39:01.children. But my 15-year-old's response was, do they want to put us
:39:01. > :39:06.off it for life? I have been researching the issue of paedophilia
:39:06. > :39:11.in the system. We are seeing it on an almost constant basis now, and
:39:11. > :39:14.the idea for me, as a parent, that you are already put into a hotbed of
:39:14. > :39:19.an environment, a kind of classroom, explicit conversations
:39:19. > :39:28.with strangers, that really knows me. What we need to do is actually,
:39:28. > :39:34.parents need to start being parents. Absolutely. It really needs to
:39:34. > :39:38.happen, we have got to stop paddling up with our children. My daughter
:39:38. > :39:42.came to me when she was two years old and asked her first sex
:39:42. > :39:48.education question, and since then, we have had that open question. She
:39:48. > :39:54.asked, how did daddy put me inside of you? She assumed that she went in
:39:54. > :40:01.complete. I said no, he planted a seed. You have no idea what your
:40:01. > :40:07.daughter is not asking you. Lots of young people are hopefully
:40:07. > :40:13.comfortable talking to their parents about sex, and I would hope that my
:40:13. > :40:18.children are covered with that. But I do not know the stuff they may not
:40:18. > :40:27.want to talk to me about. And on heart, I want to know that there is
:40:27. > :40:31.somewhere else they can ask those questions. The lady here... As a
:40:31. > :40:35.parent of a ten-year-old who is just coming up to be doing this, I would
:40:35. > :40:39.rather he had space to ask questions in a safe environment, where he did
:40:39. > :40:49.not have that parental influence, a safe environment, with his peers.
:40:49. > :40:52.
:40:52. > :40:58.Why is that such a bad thing, that she wants for her son? Someone
:40:58. > :41:01.responsible talking to her son about the proper context of pornography,
:41:02. > :41:06.sex relationships and love? It is very successfully done in the
:41:06. > :41:10.Netherlands, which has teenage pregnancy rates way lower than ours.
:41:10. > :41:15.If you look at academic journals and studies on pornography, when
:41:15. > :41:18.children are exposed to pornography at earlier ages, there is a growing
:41:18. > :41:23.urge among children to go and practice that pornography which they
:41:23. > :41:25.have watched. They have found links between children abusing other
:41:25. > :41:31.children and pornography, links between children getting abused by
:41:31. > :41:34.paedophiles and pornography, links between children getting exposed to
:41:34. > :41:44.pornography and deviant sexual behaviour at an early age. What is
:41:44. > :41:48.deviant sexual behaviour? That comes in different... I taught in a school
:41:48. > :41:52.where a lot of the kids were Muslims, and there is an awful lot
:41:52. > :41:55.of deviant sexual behaviour which comes among kids from religious
:41:55. > :42:00.families. They would come to me to talk about it. I would love to be
:42:00. > :42:04.able to speak to their parents, but many of them can't. So, what does it
:42:04. > :42:09.matter? If they feel they can come to talk to me or another member of
:42:09. > :42:14.staff, at least they can talk somewhere. No wonder 16-year-olds
:42:14. > :42:18.are leaving school unable to read and write. Curriculum was founded to
:42:18. > :42:22.stop the factories, and nothing has changed. Why are we teaching them
:42:22. > :42:30.this? We will have to draw this to an elegant conclusion, but thank you
:42:30. > :42:40.all very much indeed. -- and in elegant conclusion. You can contact
:42:40. > :42:46.
:42:46. > :42:50.us... Our next big question... If you would like to be in the audience
:42:50. > :43:00.for the spinal show of the series, in Brighton, on 23rd June. -- the
:43:00. > :43:02.
:43:02. > :43:05.final show of the series. In the Bible, David played his harp to Sue
:43:05. > :43:10.King Solomon, and many of the Psalms are credited to David as a poet.
:43:10. > :43:15.Perhaps if he was alive today, he would be a rapper, like Guvna B. Is
:43:15. > :43:25.Rap music a way to God? Congratulations for topping the
:43:25. > :43:26.
:43:26. > :43:30.religious charts. Can you give us a little sample? Yes, to quote one of
:43:30. > :43:35.my lyrics, I might look like just another rapper on the outside, but
:43:35. > :43:39.it is more than music, I have got God on the inside. And that is how I
:43:39. > :43:49.use music. Looking at your stuff on Youtube, it is beautifully produced
:43:49. > :43:50.
:43:50. > :43:55.and performed - if Satan comes, I will not have it, I am poking him
:43:55. > :44:00.like a Facebook addict... ! Yes, that was my first hit a few years
:44:00. > :44:06.ago, and since then, I have found rap as a tool to get people in and
:44:07. > :44:11.spread positivity and faith. Some people would say it is associated
:44:11. > :44:16.with homophobia, violence, drugs and gangs - is that fair? You can look
:44:16. > :44:20.at it on two levels, for me. One is the music - rappers do not have to
:44:20. > :44:24.justify when they demoralise women, promote drugs and violence, that
:44:24. > :44:28.kind of thing, and I use my music to express my faith and positivity. The
:44:28. > :44:34.second thing is the level of faith, and I believe that God loves
:44:34. > :44:44.everyone, which is what I try to promote, through my music. You are
:44:44. > :44:45.
:44:45. > :44:49.not so keen on music, are you? depends on how you define music. If
:44:49. > :44:52.it doesn't contain any explicit or derogatory material against women,
:44:52. > :44:58.children or other human beings, or doesn't contain instruments that
:44:58. > :45:04.drive you to a state of trance, such as string instruments, wind
:45:04. > :45:14.instruments... Have you not heard Elgar's cello concerto? I thought
:45:14. > :45:16.
:45:16. > :45:26.the topic was Vince music! It is all music. I thought the topic was
:45:26. > :45:31.
:45:31. > :45:37.wrapped music! Let's talk about rap music. It is the topic here. No, we
:45:37. > :45:44.are talking about all music! Tell me about strings. This is madness!
:45:44. > :45:50.Mozart was given extraordinary Tarrance. Why? -- extraordinary
:45:51. > :45:54.My point is to go back to God. You should take him seriously. If God
:45:54. > :46:04.tells you, do not listen to music that is harmful to your mind, do not
:46:04. > :46:10.
:46:10. > :46:16.do not play drums, then you should not do that. There are many Muslims
:46:16. > :46:24.who disagree with you. I sure there are, but the point is that rap
:46:24. > :46:30.music... If it doesn't drive you into a frenzy of fornication! Listen
:46:30. > :46:34.to Mozart, you will be fine. music is connected to violent
:46:34. > :46:42.behaviour, degradation of black women in particular, using swear
:46:42. > :46:48.words... Guvna B. That is the rap music you have heard. You haven't
:46:48. > :46:52.heard all of the positive, good stuff. Your argument is based on
:46:52. > :46:58.what you know, and the stereotypes that are drawn towards rap music.
:46:58. > :47:06.That is the stuff that gets promoted. It is is not the form of
:47:06. > :47:11.music, it is how you use it. Explain how you relate to people. I will ask
:47:11. > :47:18.the question. How did you become a good rapper? By copying other
:47:18. > :47:26.rappers? That's not true. You do not know me. How do you learn to rap,
:47:26. > :47:32.without listening to other rap music? What is rap music? It is
:47:32. > :47:39.words over music. If I spoke to you now in a way that flowed, you could
:47:39. > :47:45.say it was a rap. By the way I was influence, you can't say that. Just
:47:45. > :47:50.because I was listening to other rappers... It is like poetry with a
:47:50. > :47:57.beat. I like poetry. That's fine with me. Put a beat behind it, and
:47:57. > :48:05.the poetry has to be nice, and moral. Devotional music, whether it
:48:05. > :48:10.be rap or gospel, whether it be strings, is it OK with you? Any form
:48:10. > :48:15.of music which respects the dignity of life and the dignity of humanity
:48:15. > :48:22.is a praise to God. Let's teach our children music, because music
:48:22. > :48:27.purifies the soul. What you are saying, my friend, you are in a
:48:27. > :48:35.cuckoo land of Islam. Islam also praises God through music. There is
:48:35. > :48:40.chanting, there is music in Islam. never denied that. Is it the
:48:41. > :48:49.strings? I do not want to lose the string section! Johnny, come in
:48:49. > :48:52.here. There is this idea that goes unchallenged, which is that
:48:52. > :48:58.religious ideas are necessarily good. There are some negative ideas
:48:58. > :49:02.in all rap music, but I would not say that all Christian music is
:49:02. > :49:08.promoting good ideas either. If you are talking about Satan, that is
:49:08. > :49:18.just superstition. There is Christian rap music that can be rank
:49:18. > :49:25.ignorance. You don't have to listen to it. Music is a choice. My music
:49:25. > :49:29.is not, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, you are going to hell. My music is loving
:49:29. > :49:35.God and loving people. I believe the only way to heaven is through Jesus
:49:35. > :49:39.Christ, and that will come across through my music. Overall, it is
:49:39. > :49:47.accessible to everyone. The only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ?
:49:47. > :49:51.That is going to open... Recently I was at a gig. I got home and I had
:49:51. > :49:55.an e-mail from a girl who said she had been self harming. She said she
:49:55. > :50:01.had listened to my music and now she could find peace, hope and
:50:01. > :50:05.happiness. What you are saying about music being rubbish, that point just
:50:05. > :50:15.proves... Are you denying the connection? Have you heard the rap
:50:15. > :50:21.
:50:21. > :50:28.of Tupac? I used to listen to these rap, s -- to these rap music, and if
:50:28. > :50:32.you use the word rap, what I understand... If you want to talk
:50:32. > :50:37.about the bad elements in rap, we should also talk about the bad
:50:37. > :50:42.elements in Islam. His point is that there are bad elements in
:50:42. > :50:52.everything. I do not believe there are any bad elements in the
:50:52. > :50:52.
:50:52. > :51:00.teachings of God. It is good. a religious studies teacher. I don't
:51:00. > :51:07.just wave my Willie around! I wish I had a yellow carded! I music as
:51:07. > :51:13.well, but film's know that it is going to elicit certain reactions
:51:13. > :51:19.from the brain. Music can make you cry. I often think, if they were not
:51:19. > :51:24.playing that music, would I be crying right now? I am an
:51:24. > :51:29.anti-religious person, and I believe that religion is a destructive force
:51:29. > :51:34.in our society, far more destructive than something like pornography can
:51:34. > :51:39.ever be. People use it as a marketing tool for religion, and it
:51:39. > :51:47.is hiding the real message of Malaysians -- of religion. You are
:51:47. > :51:51.obviously very talented. I am not religious at all. I hate organised
:51:51. > :52:00.religion. I am trying to promote peace and the idea that God loves
:52:00. > :52:05.you. You don't use music, do you? No, I use my voice, which I think is
:52:05. > :52:11.the most powerful tool we have. It is like what Guvna B was saying. It
:52:11. > :52:17.is all about being good to people. I don't talk about heaven or hell,
:52:17. > :52:24.it's all about loving God. You just talk about God? Is God is implicit
:52:24. > :52:31.in everything, why does God have to be explicit in our music? You could
:52:31. > :52:41.sing about dolphins in the sea... could talk about anything. I talk
:52:41. > :52:41.
:52:41. > :52:44.about the Prophet Mohammed, about his teachings, and about how I have
:52:44. > :52:47.been saved by my religion, which has given me a direction in life. If you
:52:47. > :52:52.have positive music out there, that is a beautiful thing. How much can
:52:52. > :53:00.we listen to sex, drugs and rock and roll? Feel free if you want to give
:53:00. > :53:10.us a little bit now. Could you give us a couple of lines? Start
:53:10. > :53:40.
:53:40. > :53:46.Jackson Society is going to sing us a song! Isn't it telling that when
:53:46. > :53:52.you look at the things that are famous in the real rap world, not
:53:52. > :53:57.that Guvna B isn't real. He is saying that it is all thanks to the
:53:57. > :54:03.Lord. Genuinely, I think it is a wonderful thing. Some of the
:54:03. > :54:09.messages in rap music are great. I what Guvna B is doing, and I will
:54:09. > :54:19.definitely be buying his album! were a music journalist. I was one
:54:19. > :54:24.
:54:24. > :54:26.of the last people to interview Tupac before he died. I think that
:54:26. > :54:29.rap music gets an appalling reputation. The negative rap is
:54:29. > :54:38.often promoted, and there is a great deal of more positive stuff. Rap and
:54:38. > :54:44.hip-hop were all about Empire and. -- empowerment. What is promoted
:54:44. > :54:49.here is people like Nicki Minaj, really nasty and ugly stuff. I think
:54:49. > :54:54.it is about an expression, and any form of expression, even if we don't
:54:54. > :55:03.like it, should be appreciated for what it is. It is the negative stuff
:55:03. > :55:07.that is being promoted. It is wonderful to see you at number one!
:55:07. > :55:12.My album came out last year, and I gave it to a Buddhist friend of
:55:12. > :55:17.mine. He came back to me and he said, the Alban was beautiful. I
:55:17. > :55:21.played it to Mike Christian friends, and they said that they didn't know
:55:21. > :55:27.Islam was a religion of peace. What you see in the media is not what you
:55:27. > :55:32.will hear from me. You will hear my story of Islam. It is all about the
:55:32. > :55:36.negativity in life. Society is so crazy at the moment, all the bad
:55:36. > :55:44.things happening... There's good Muslims, Christians and Jews out
:55:44. > :55:50.there, but you don't tend to hear that. It is a testament that my
:55:50. > :55:56.album is number one in the Christian chart and number 22 in the UK urban
:55:56. > :55:59.album chart. People want to hear more positive things. We hear a lot
:55:59. > :56:03.of negativity. When you switch off the TV -- when you switch on the TV,
:56:04. > :56:11.it is in your face. It is a shame. People want to hear something more
:56:11. > :56:15.uplifting. A quick point. I like all types of music, but if I turned on
:56:15. > :56:24.the radio and I heard a load of religious tunes, I would switch
:56:24. > :56:27.over. That this is a long way from the guitar and the tambourine.
:56:27. > :56:36.are stereotyping. When you hear my music, you will, hopefully, hear
:56:36. > :56:43.good music. You guys should do an interreligious duet! If they can
:56:43. > :56:53.both, as a duet, make a Muslim and Christian song, it will be a
:56:53. > :56:53.
:56:53. > :56:57.wonderful album! The reverend air is going to be your manager!
:56:57. > :57:03.There is a great spiritual longing and a lot of young people, and I
:57:03. > :57:07.think the thing that Guvna B is doing can help unleash that. It can
:57:07. > :57:16.help give the deep, spiritual yearnings that many young people
:57:16. > :57:21.have... I grew up in a charismatic Pentecostal Christian tradition. I
:57:21. > :57:26.had these incredible ecstatic experiences during work ship, which
:57:26. > :57:31.I would have said at the time was experiencing God in music. Then I
:57:31. > :57:34.started listening to secular music, and I found that I had more ecstatic
:57:34. > :57:44.experiences with that. I realised it was the power of music, not the
:57:44. > :57:44.
:57:44. > :57:54.power of God. People like Tupac also have a lot of positive material. I
:57:54. > :58:01.teach music production in the local university, and I listen to a lot.
:58:01. > :58:04.Some tracks are written about things like Hurricane Katrina. There are
:58:04. > :58:11.some very positive things. A lot of these mainstream rappers do have a
:58:11. > :58:16.wide variety of material. They write about what they know. People are
:58:16. > :58:23.saying that Tupac is bad, and others, but that is simplistic.