:00:27. > :00:34.A Good morning and welcome to The Big Questions live from Patcham
:00:34. > :00:37.High School in Brighton. I'm Nicky Campbell. This Tuesday, Ian Brady,
:00:37. > :00:40.the Moors Murderer, will argue that he is no longer mentally ill. He
:00:40. > :00:43.wants to be transferred from Ashworth secure mental hospital to
:00:43. > :00:48.a prison, where he believes he will have the right to refuse all forms
:00:48. > :00:52.of sustenance until he dies. Our first Big Question: Should Ian
:00:52. > :00:55.Brady be allowed to starve himself to death? Gambling. Newham, in East
:00:55. > :00:58.London is officially one of the poorest boroughs in Britain. Yet it
:00:58. > :01:01.has 83 betting shops and, this week, despite the council trying to stop
:01:01. > :01:06.it, the 18th betting shop in one street alone was allowed to go
:01:06. > :01:11.ahead. Our next Big Question: Does the law need to be tougher on
:01:11. > :01:14.gambling? And as Pope Francis warns of the dangers of mixing ideas
:01:14. > :01:17.founded on the Holy Spirit with ideas from the wider world, the
:01:17. > :01:20.Church of England appears to be doing just that. Training pioneer
:01:20. > :01:28.ministers to tailor the message of Christ for spiritual seekers of all
:01:28. > :01:38.kinds. Our last Big Question: Is it right to pick and mix religion?
:01:38. > :01:40.Welcome, everyone, to The Big Ian Brady was jailed for life in
:01:40. > :01:47.1966 for the murder of 12-year-old John Kilbride, 10-year-old Lesley
:01:47. > :01:50.Ann Downey and 17-year-old Edward Evans. Brady and his accomplice,
:01:50. > :01:52.Myra Hindley, lured five victims and sexually tormented them before
:01:52. > :02:01.killing them and burying their bodies on Saddleworth Moor between
:02:01. > :02:07.July 1963 and October 1965. The body of one victim, 12-year-old
:02:07. > :02:10.Keith Bennett, has never been found. Hindley died in 2002 but Brady has
:02:10. > :02:17.been held at Ashworth Hospital since 1985 because he is mentally
:02:17. > :02:22.ill. Since 1999, he has refused all food and has been force fed via a
:02:22. > :02:25.tube from his nose to his stomach. Next week, if the mental health
:02:25. > :02:28.tribunal decides he is now mentally competent, Brady will be eligible
:02:28. > :02:33.to return to the main prison system, where hunger strikers have been
:02:33. > :02:43.allowed to die in the past. Should Ian Brady be allowed to starve
:02:43. > :02:44.
:02:44. > :02:49.himself to death? David Cohen, Keith Bennett, his mum died last
:02:49. > :02:56.year. You represented her. I remember interviewing her. I met
:02:56. > :03:02.her. She was an extraordinary woman - a lovely person. Such sadness,
:03:02. > :03:08.such tragedy. I remember interviewing her Ben. It was 1988.
:03:08. > :03:17.She was going to write to Ian Brady and Myra Hindley. She was looking
:03:17. > :03:24.for answers. There were never be any, will play question he is --
:03:24. > :03:31.will there? He is a control freak. I was a solicitor and appealed for
:03:31. > :03:36.Ian Brady to meet with me. I went along to Ashworth and I met him on
:03:36. > :03:40.two occasions with my wife. I played the role of a hostage
:03:40. > :03:46.negotiator. Many of you may criticise me for negotiating with
:03:46. > :03:52.someone who committed some of the most heinous crimes in the 20th
:03:52. > :03:58.century. It is so sad that before she died, she could not give a
:03:58. > :04:03.Christian burial for her son. It is so sad. I think I was justified in
:04:03. > :04:08.negotiating with him. I had the blessing of the Greater Manchester
:04:08. > :04:13.Police and the Home Office. I had two meetings with him. It did not
:04:13. > :04:23.workout. He lost his last opportunity to have that one human
:04:23. > :04:24.
:04:24. > :04:34.right - to dictate how he should It is a power thing with him, is
:04:34. > :04:34.
:04:34. > :04:41.it? I have sat in the same room as him. He sits at right angles to you.
:04:41. > :04:47.He is extremely aware of his situation. He is an ace bargainer.
:04:47. > :04:55.This is the pawn he keeps pushing forward in a game of chess. I am
:04:55. > :05:05.convinced that he knew where the body was and he still does. If he
:05:05. > :05:05.
:05:05. > :05:11.is shown to be sane, why should he'd be force-fed? Just listening
:05:11. > :05:19.to that testimony, I feel quite sick actually. What Ian Brady did
:05:19. > :05:24.was unspeakable. Why should he be force-fed? The thing is, if we
:05:24. > :05:31.removed the food from him, the state is sanctioning suicide
:05:31. > :05:36.effectively. The state is not in a position to sanction suicide.
:05:36. > :05:42.is the situation now for prisoners in the system. If we allow him to
:05:42. > :05:47.die, it is not about punishment or revenge. Where there is live, there
:05:47. > :05:54.is always hope. This will sound fairly incredible too many beers
:05:54. > :06:00.but we have to remember there is always the Christian message of
:06:00. > :06:06.hope. Always redemption and always salvation. As long as he is alive,
:06:06. > :06:14.he has the chance to repent and come to some reconciliation. He has
:06:14. > :06:23.had ample opportunity. He has.USOC think there is hope of redemption.
:06:23. > :06:28.-- you seriously think. That is the Christian message. I think that it
:06:28. > :06:33.is powerful and debatable and irrelevant. The question is, is
:06:33. > :06:38.this man - regardless of whether he is Ian Brady or not - sane? If he
:06:38. > :06:43.is, he goes into the prison system and he must be treated like all
:06:43. > :06:48.other prisoners. That means, as things stand, he would have the
:06:48. > :06:54.right to refuse food. If he is not sane, he would need to stay where
:06:54. > :06:59.he is. Everything I have heard so far is very powerful. It is also
:06:59. > :07:03.not the point. Not the point. disagree. You have a clash between
:07:03. > :07:07.the practical and theoretical. When you are having a conversation about
:07:07. > :07:13.what should and should not be done to somebody, you should say that
:07:13. > :07:16.all prisoners should be force fed. The simplest way of putting it is
:07:17. > :07:25.by saying that we hold human life in a much higher regard than Ian
:07:25. > :07:30.Brady ever did. As a result of that, we do not take it away. It is
:07:30. > :07:35.fascinating to have two people arguing on the same side as callous
:07:35. > :07:40.and Clement. What is not great is that justice in this country is not
:07:40. > :07:44.served by handing a multiple choice tick box along with a sentence. You
:07:44. > :07:49.do not get to choose your punishment when you are convicted
:07:49. > :07:55.of murder. He does not have the right. You believe he should have
:07:55. > :08:02.been afforded the human right on what grounds - compassion? Purely
:08:02. > :08:06.on Human Rights. There is many more than 50 shades of grey involved in
:08:06. > :08:12.us. This system invites us to become binary. Should he or should
:08:12. > :08:17.he not be allowed to die? Should he be allowed to commit suicide is the
:08:18. > :08:22.question? In the UK, we do not have the justice system which says, I
:08:22. > :08:30.sentence you to prison and its own that body. We do not have that
:08:30. > :08:34.system in the UK. When we had Myra Hindley, who died from heart
:08:34. > :08:38.complications following chest infection, we did not say, we are
:08:39. > :08:48.going to why are you are and keep you alive and keep your vital
:08:49. > :08:49.
:08:49. > :08:54.systems going. We can. I do not think we should promote suicide. I
:08:54. > :09:02.do not think we should do anything to promote, support and enable
:09:02. > :09:07.suicide. We should do everything we can to prevent it. I do not think
:09:07. > :09:12.that you can say every day we can have so much control over you we're
:09:12. > :09:16.going to prevent you. What we have done for Ian Brady, for a child
:09:16. > :09:21.murderer, what we have actually done is turned him into an infant
:09:21. > :09:27.in which we force-feed him. He gets mashed food through a tube. He has
:09:27. > :09:37.no control over what is important. We should not single him out as
:09:37. > :09:37.
:09:37. > :09:43.having special treatment. second. We should try and prevent
:09:43. > :09:47.it. You'd have met him in your professional duties. Should he have
:09:47. > :09:51.the right to effectively commit suicide? You do not have to agree
:09:51. > :09:56.with what he has done in order to acknowledge the fact he should be
:09:56. > :10:01.treated in the same way as other people with human rights. A lot of
:10:01. > :10:05.people have a huge problem with extending compassion to Ian Brady.
:10:05. > :10:07.The trouble with that is once you start making judgements about which
:10:08. > :10:14.rights people get to keep, and whether they should keep rights
:10:14. > :10:21.dependent on what they have done, you end up with places like
:10:21. > :10:27.Guantanamo Bay. You have to take a very strong line. If you four-speed
:10:27. > :10:35.somebody in circumstances where there is no necessity to do so, you
:10:35. > :10:40.are torturing them. -- force feed. If you have ever seen somebody
:10:40. > :10:48.force-fed, you would understand why that is. That is not quite true.
:10:48. > :10:53.Ian Brady sometimes beats himself. He is not being force-fed on those
:10:53. > :10:58.occasions, is he? Why are we arguing about the human rights of
:10:58. > :11:03.Ian Brady? What about the rights of the victims - the people he
:11:03. > :11:08.tortured, raped and murdered? What about the living families who have
:11:08. > :11:13.this dreadful thing hanging over them for the rest of the pair lives.
:11:13. > :11:19.The stepfather of Lesley Ann Downey - she lost her life as well to Ian
:11:19. > :11:22.Brady. She is one of his victims. The stepfather is saying, for God's
:11:22. > :11:29.sake, let him die so we can have closure and he is no longer there
:11:29. > :11:35.for us to think about. That is a very good point. Winnie Johnson did
:11:35. > :11:39.not get closure. Why should Ian Brady get closure? It is
:11:39. > :11:43.fundamentally wrong to argue that Ian Brady was inhumane in the way
:11:43. > :11:49.he behaved, which he was, and therefore we will be inhumane to
:11:49. > :11:59.him. That is not what we do. Some people are of the opinion that if
:11:59. > :12:03.he wants to die, we should let him. It is about the difference between
:12:03. > :12:07.callousness and clemency. Rights are supposed to be absolute. There
:12:07. > :12:11.is an absolute that supersedes all Rights. That should be where there
:12:11. > :12:15.you are religious and call it sanctity or you are humane and call
:12:15. > :12:22.it the over-reaching importance of human life. To take it away is
:12:22. > :12:27.against many laws. There is an outstanding issue. You went and
:12:27. > :12:34.tried to get this deal. We still do not know where the remains of Keith
:12:34. > :12:41.Bennett bar. He still holds that. Till the day of his death, he could
:12:41. > :12:45.depend. He could tell us where the remains are. That family would - it
:12:45. > :12:54.would mean a lot to that family. Another attempt should be made to
:12:54. > :12:59.ask him. Maybe even a deal. You can die but you letters have that
:12:59. > :13:05.information. Morally, that is justified in trading research a
:13:05. > :13:10.fiend, to give him that right. It is very important to respect the
:13:10. > :13:16.rights of the victims. If we give him this right to take his own life,
:13:16. > :13:21.isn't that reversing the sentence of the courts? He received three
:13:21. > :13:27.concurrent life sentences. I underlined the word life. He should
:13:27. > :13:34.serve those sentences. We are not depriving him of his life. He
:13:34. > :13:39.should serve them. I will ask you a question, would you therefore think
:13:39. > :13:44.it is justifiable to torture him in order for him to be forced to
:13:44. > :13:49.disclose the information he is keeping from Winnie Johnson? No one
:13:49. > :13:55.in this room can say that is justified. If he cannot be tortured
:13:55. > :14:05.to disclose this information, what is the state supposed to do?
:14:05. > :14:09.have to earn Human Rights. They are not automatically granted. I think
:14:09. > :14:15.you have human rights by warrant of being a human being. I find myself
:14:15. > :14:21.agreeing in that some of this debate is the relevant. If the law
:14:21. > :14:25.says he can go... Which is the compassionate thing to do? We are
:14:25. > :14:31.talking about different understandings of justice. In the
:14:31. > :14:36.wider understanding of justice, we have compassion. He is that for? It
:14:36. > :14:40.is for the victim and perpetrator. We're talking about retributive
:14:40. > :14:50.justice. The idea that because the crimes are so he must, we really
:14:50. > :14:54.
:14:54. > :15:00.want that person to suffer. -- keenness. -- heinous. Because of
:15:00. > :15:05.actions, a prisoner no longer deserves a right to freedom. It is
:15:05. > :15:10.a very difficult situation if what we are saying is the level of the
:15:10. > :15:13.crime will, somehow give us the right to force another level of
:15:13. > :15:18.cruelty in terms of the punitive justice that comes from that. That
:15:18. > :15:28.becomes toxic for an Asian or for the victims to become part of that.
:15:28. > :15:39.
:15:39. > :15:45.You may think that will make us even if this man does have human
:15:45. > :15:49.rights, why is the human rights to die? That has never been decided, if
:15:49. > :15:54.rights are given by God, then God doesn't allow you to die. If they
:15:54. > :16:00.are chosen by society, why should society allow people to die? Why
:16:00. > :16:04.does anyone have the right to die? The thing is, nobody... You would
:16:04. > :16:10.carry on for speeding? We all have a right to life, but nobody has a
:16:10. > :16:13.right to die. This is feeding into a euthanasia issue. People seem to be
:16:13. > :16:18.arguing that he has a right to die at the time and place of his
:16:18. > :16:23.choosing, because it is a human rights. That is not a basic human
:16:23. > :16:28.rights and should never be. Suicide is not against the law. Death is
:16:28. > :16:32.inevitable. We do not have a right to die, we have an inevitability.
:16:32. > :16:37.The question is, do we have a right to choose where and when? My uncle
:16:37. > :16:41.is dying, he is in his early 80s, he has in operable cancer, and he has
:16:41. > :16:45.taken the choice not to have treatment, no chemotherapy, no
:16:45. > :16:53.radiotherapy, and he says, I am going to die somehow, now I know
:16:53. > :16:58.how, I feel more in control. There is nobody on his case saying, you
:16:58. > :17:03.must not die, you must let us treat you, you must let us operate.
:17:03. > :17:07.that is silly. He is allowed to make that choice. The thing is, there is
:17:07. > :17:15.a very different... What your uncle is doing is allowing nature to take
:17:15. > :17:22.its course, OK? He is refusing treatment. But Brady wants to refuse
:17:22. > :17:32.food. But food is not treatment. We need food and drink to keep us
:17:32. > :17:33.
:17:33. > :17:38.alive. What we are talking about here is a right to die, and if we
:17:38. > :17:42.introduce that, it becomes a duty to die. We have a right to choose what
:17:42. > :17:46.is done with our bodies. If we are suffering from a terminal illness,
:17:46. > :17:50.we can say, I don't want any more treatment, but we also have a right
:17:50. > :17:55.to say, I don't want you to pin me down and force me to have food and
:17:55. > :17:59.water. If I am confident to make that choice, mentally competent,
:17:59. > :18:04.that is the issue that is being decided in this case. But if he is
:18:04. > :18:06.mentally competent, he should have the same right. There are so many
:18:06. > :18:10.behaviours in prison where you surrender the rights to your own
:18:10. > :18:14.body, you will be physically restraint, they locked the doors, by
:18:14. > :18:19.the way, that is a denial of freedom and choice, a denial of bodily
:18:19. > :18:23.liberty, and by locking the doors, they tell you what you can and
:18:23. > :18:27.cannot do with your body. Your uncle, for whom I have nothing but
:18:27. > :18:31.sympathy, has freedoms that Ian Brady does not, and that is because
:18:31. > :18:33.he is a convicted murderer. We pay prison guards to go into the prison
:18:34. > :18:36.is a convicted murderer. We pay prison guards to go into the prisons
:18:36. > :18:39.to keep people alive and safe, not to watch them start themselves to
:18:39. > :18:43.death in the manner of a concentration camp victim. We read
:18:43. > :18:47.in the risk of turning ourselves into executioners. His sentence is
:18:47. > :18:52.what you said, to have the doors locked and the keys thrown away.
:18:52. > :18:57.There was not a bigger sentence, and we are going to put tubes into you.
:18:57. > :19:02.I'm afraid there was, if he tried to hang himself, we would cut him down.
:19:02. > :19:07.The gentleman here, �300,000 per year to keep them in Ashworth
:19:07. > :19:15.prison, a consideration for some of the newspapers. Many would say that
:19:15. > :19:18.is relevant. It is absolutely irrelevant. The Government strive to
:19:18. > :19:23.save money, but the moral principles are far more important than saving
:19:23. > :19:28.money. And we knew moral and ethical normative process hear of both
:19:28. > :19:38.sides, should we not look at Brady himself, and his E not manipulating
:19:38. > :19:38.
:19:38. > :19:43.everyone? The problem is that he is, but we have got 60 million
:19:43. > :19:48.psychiatrists in Britain who have an opinion on his illness. There is a
:19:48. > :19:54.whole spectrum of whether he is actually mentally ill. Does a
:19:54. > :19:59.personality disorder constitute mental illness, is psycho bothy --
:19:59. > :20:02.psychopathy a mental illness? emerged from Ashworth after a very
:20:02. > :20:06.harrowing experience on two occasions, the first thing we said
:20:06. > :20:12.outside the walls, what do you think? We said that he is completely
:20:12. > :20:19.rational, lucid. He may have been ranting at us, but he is not insane.
:20:19. > :20:24.He is just a cold-blooded murderer. Not insane? Not insane at all!
:20:24. > :20:29.are some very high functioning, very able people in society who have very
:20:29. > :20:34.severe mental illnesses, and you and I would meet them. Jon Ronson wrote
:20:34. > :20:39.a very good book about this. Absolutely, and we would not go,
:20:39. > :20:43.that person is barking mad, they are rational. There is another issue I
:20:43. > :20:51.want to make. When I was a boy growing up in Liverpool, this is
:20:51. > :20:55.showing my age, the year that Elvis Presley was top of the charts with
:20:55. > :21:02.Wooden Heart, there were over 100 people in the UK taken to court and
:21:02. > :21:06.charged with the crime of attempting to commit suicide. That was 1961
:21:06. > :21:09.when it was decriminalised. So within the current generation, we
:21:09. > :21:13.are moving away slightly from our attitudes about the criminalisation
:21:13. > :21:19.of suicide and our attitudes to the right to live, the right to life and
:21:19. > :21:23.everything else are changing. We are on the cusp of that. Brady has more
:21:23. > :21:27.than 50 shades of grey and has challenged us right into that area.
:21:27. > :21:32.What is our view on life, death and morality? He has taken us right into
:21:32. > :21:36.that area, and that is what clever, manipulative areas delayed aggro
:21:36. > :21:44.criminals do. Thank you very much for taking part in that debate,
:21:44. > :21:49.thank you. Go to the website if you have got something to say to that.
:21:49. > :21:53.You can contribute on Twitter as well. We are also debating, live
:21:53. > :21:57.from Brighton, does the law need to be tougher on gambling? And is it
:21:57. > :22:06.right to pick and mix religions? Tell us what you think and any
:22:06. > :22:10.general comments about the programme preserve of devotees of the Racing
:22:10. > :22:14.Post studying form, now you don't need to know anything about sport to
:22:14. > :22:18.stand a chance of winning on gaming machines, fixed odds betting
:22:18. > :22:23.terminals. You can place up to 100 quid on a casino game every 20
:22:23. > :22:27.seconds if you want, and you can win up to �500. Research shows that the
:22:27. > :22:32.odds of finding a machine to play on our best in the poorest parts of
:22:32. > :22:36.Britain, the sort of place where the high street is run down, and many of
:22:36. > :22:42.the locals work in low status, poorly paid jobs. Does the law needs
:22:42. > :22:45.to be tougher on gambling? Matt, you are a campaign on the issue, you
:22:45. > :22:51.have played these machines, you have a problem when you were younger,
:22:51. > :22:55.tell us about the machines and the seductive nature of them. They are
:22:55. > :22:59.incredibly addictive, incredibly fast-paced. The ability to control
:22:59. > :23:05.the speed and state is quite potent. Does the law need to be tougher on
:23:05. > :23:09.gambling? The current law needs to be properly enforced. The gambling
:23:09. > :23:12.act has three objectives. Gambling needs to be fair and open, not
:23:12. > :23:15.associated with crime and disorder, and it cannot harm young or
:23:15. > :23:19.vulnerable people. And these machines, fixed odds betting
:23:19. > :23:23.terminals, are in breach of all three. Do you think they inevitably
:23:23. > :23:28.are? I think they are highly addictive, and there are two pieces
:23:28. > :23:33.of secondary research on the British gambling prevalence surveys which
:23:33. > :23:39.show that they are most addictive form of gambling. We recently polled
:23:39. > :23:44.501 people, and 87% of people said they were addictive, 76% have spent
:23:44. > :23:48.more than they planned to do, and 62% have gambled until all the money
:23:48. > :23:53.was gone. These are all signs of addiction. What is the most you
:23:53. > :23:58.lost? In one sitting, about �2500. The machines are designed to distort
:23:58. > :24:01.your cognitive function, to make you make decisions you would not
:24:01. > :24:05.otherwise make. So you do not make rational choices that you would
:24:05. > :24:10.otherwise make if you are doing any other activity. They have been
:24:10. > :24:14.described by some as the crack cocaine of gambling, do you endorse
:24:14. > :24:19.that description? I do, yeah, they are the most addictive form of
:24:19. > :24:25.gambling. How did you fund it?I had a part-time job at the time, I was
:24:25. > :24:30.working while I was in sixth form, so I studied gambling when I was 16.
:24:30. > :24:33.Here, I should not have been allowed in, really, and young people are
:24:33. > :24:37.particularly at risk, Professor Johnny Grant is an addiction and
:24:37. > :24:44.psychologist, and he said the brain develops back to front, developing
:24:44. > :24:48.desires before the ability to develop control behaviour.
:24:48. > :24:55.Christopher Snowden, what about that description, the crack cocaine of
:24:55. > :25:00.gambling? Do you buy that? No, not at all. I wrote about this a few
:25:00. > :25:04.months ago, and we looked into the origins of this phrase, and it is
:25:04. > :25:07.very rare that you will see a news reporter writing about these
:25:07. > :25:10.machines without hearing it said that they have been dubbed the crack
:25:10. > :25:15.cocaine of gambling. Every form of gambling since the mid-1980s has
:25:15. > :25:21.been dubbed the crack cocaine of gambling, casinos, scratch cards,
:25:21. > :25:26.lotteries, everything. It is a catchall term. Are we finding
:25:26. > :25:30.stronger...? These are pretty intense, �100 every 20 seconds.
:25:30. > :25:35.Potentially, that is your maximum state. You can put �10,000 on a
:25:35. > :25:43.horse if you want to. But that is not a 22nd event. You can bet in
:25:43. > :25:46.play on football, a yellow card, a corner. What is interesting about
:25:46. > :25:51.the crack cocaine of gambling, the fact that it has been applied to so
:25:51. > :25:55.many forms of gambling is an indication that this current panic
:25:55. > :25:59.about the fixed odds betting terminals is just the latest in a
:25:59. > :26:04.number of ongoing... They have been getting more intensive. It is
:26:04. > :26:07.reminiscent of the panic about super casinos, online gambling. You can go
:26:07. > :26:12.back 50 years to when bookies were licensed in the first place. People
:26:12. > :26:15.have been predicting mass gambling addiction ever since bookies were
:26:15. > :26:20.opened, ever since casinos were opened, and it just hasn't happened.
:26:20. > :26:23.We have not seen a dramatic proliferation... Did is not just the
:26:23. > :26:27.person in front of the machine, it is the kids on the partner at home,
:26:28. > :26:32.the knock-on effect. Sure, there may be a few people who would say that
:26:32. > :26:35.we should ban gambling entirely, but most people would accept we need to
:26:35. > :26:39.have a well regulated gambling industry. We do not live in the
:26:39. > :26:47.1970s, the days of the football. Michael I are there so many of these
:26:47. > :26:55.machines? -- why are there? It is technology, internet gambling,
:26:55. > :26:58.mobile phones. In new, 83 betting shops in the borough, 18 on one
:26:59. > :27:02.street. -- Newham. The borough, 18 on one street. -- Newham. That you
:27:02. > :27:09.upload that? It is the demand and football in those areas, but I would
:27:09. > :27:13.also like to say... It is not in Highgate. That is not relevant. We
:27:13. > :27:19.betting shops have been on the high street for over 50 years, and they
:27:19. > :27:23.have been heavily regulated, investing in town centres, creating
:27:23. > :27:27.jobs. We must not forget that they go to Newham Council and have to get
:27:27. > :27:32.a licence, go to the gambling commission for a licence, and since
:27:32. > :27:38.the gambling act no licences have been referred whatsoever. Local
:27:38. > :27:41.authorities have sufficient powers already... Newham tried to overturn
:27:41. > :27:44.the licence. It is important this is not an argument about whether
:27:44. > :27:50.gambling should be banned outright, but your arguments ignore
:27:50. > :27:55.psychology. Even sitting in a pub watching bells and whistles on an
:27:55. > :28:01.old-fashioned fruit machine, you are being seduced. No.So why do the
:28:01. > :28:09.lights flash, then?! I am not seduced by them at all. Well done,
:28:09. > :28:12.you! What are you doing in a pub, anyway?! The traditional libertarian
:28:12. > :28:16.arguments, freedom of choice. I would agree with you if you spent
:28:16. > :28:21.the same amount of money explaining the dangers to people as you do on
:28:21. > :28:24.tempting them in. If it said that this machine has made a clear profit
:28:24. > :28:34.of �30,000, more people will lose, you are a mug, then I have got
:28:34. > :28:41.
:28:41. > :28:47.Not the pay-out, the profit. Why are they limited to two machines per
:28:47. > :28:51.shop? They have to keep opening more shops. They have to keep opening new
:28:51. > :29:01.shops to stick the machines in! you are suggesting that they allow
:29:01. > :29:02.
:29:02. > :29:11.more machines in, that would be one solution. Have you finished? Can we
:29:11. > :29:13.keep it in perspective? 73% of the adult population is gambling, and
:29:13. > :29:23.problem gambling has remained relatively low. That includes
:29:23. > :29:28.lottery, less than 1%... We are not arguing about gambling. This is the
:29:28. > :29:32.crack cocaine, the lottery is like Ovaltine. The recurrence of the
:29:32. > :29:36.phrase about the crack cocaine, it is overused, but even a stopped
:29:36. > :29:40.clock is right twice a day, and perhaps this technology has gone too
:29:40. > :29:46.far. We take it more seriously than that. Of course you do, it is your
:29:46. > :29:52.wages! Our staff take it seriously, they know their customers, often
:29:52. > :29:56.they are delayed us, -- they are regulars, and they offer support to
:29:56. > :30:00.people who have a problem with gambling. Collectively, the industry
:30:00. > :30:10.raises more than �6 million on voluntary donations to support
:30:10. > :30:21.
:30:21. > :30:28.research, education and treatment of Gambling in itself is the crack
:30:28. > :30:35.cocaine. We have known since the 1950s how behaviour works. How it
:30:35. > :30:40.has supported, reinforced and modified. Chubby will send is a
:30:40. > :30:48.prime example. If you do not give him a treat every time, you give
:30:49. > :30:52.him a treat every so often. Gambling is a variable rate of
:30:52. > :30:58.reinforcement. People keep putting money into the machine in the hope
:30:58. > :31:04.that once an hour while they will get a payout. There is a bigger
:31:04. > :31:08.issue about this. Nick Leeson was a professional gambler. We have built
:31:08. > :31:14.a society on industrialists and business people who were
:31:14. > :31:19.professional gamblers. He brought Barings Bank down by gambling on
:31:19. > :31:23.what the Tokyo's Stock Exchange was going to do. Quoting from the
:31:23. > :31:32.Gambling Commission, they are saying that proper gamblers would
:31:32. > :31:40.gamble on a variety of products. It is product lead -- it is person
:31:40. > :31:47.scented and not adapt related. the audience. A young gentleman
:31:47. > :31:53.here. I think we do need to get tougher on gambling. This time last
:31:53. > :31:58.year, Nicklas Bendtner for Paddy Power advertise after he scored a
:31:58. > :32:04.goal on the football game. It is that ambushing of advertising which
:32:04. > :32:09.has a negative impact. If you look at the �10 free play, you can
:32:09. > :32:17.compare it to crack cocaine. Even worse maybe because no drug dealer
:32:17. > :32:27.gives you free cocaine because you have to start paying for it. --
:32:27. > :32:29.
:32:29. > :32:39.before. You can come back. This is interesting. It says in their Koran
:32:39. > :32:40.
:32:40. > :32:50.gambling is the work of Satan. It is Satan's work, is it? Indeed. It
:32:50. > :32:50.
:32:50. > :32:57.is about making responsible choices. We are all adults. People have the
:32:57. > :33:07.choice. They can donate to charity and they can pay taxes and
:33:07. > :33:08.
:33:08. > :33:14.government can make money. There are three main problems. Gambling
:33:14. > :33:22.is a parasitic industry. It does not contribute any resources,
:33:22. > :33:31.products or enriching services. It is a vulture industry. In a session,
:33:31. > :33:35.gambling is up almost recession- proof. -- recession. It is
:33:35. > :33:45.increasing in Newham and that his family are having this discussion.
:33:45. > :33:47.
:33:47. > :33:55.It ruins lives. That 1% of the population averages about �17,500.
:33:55. > :34:00.Alcohol ruins lives as well. I did not approve of that either. What
:34:00. > :34:04.about freedom of choice? Mohamed can say, we do not put
:34:04. > :34:10.anything back into the community, I am sorry to hear that. The facts
:34:10. > :34:17.speak for themselves. We pay �1 billion in taxes. We are part of
:34:17. > :34:27.the community. In Newham we provide 400 jobs. It is the rancid machines
:34:27. > :34:30.
:34:30. > :34:33.that are designed by intelligent people... Wait a minute! As was the
:34:33. > :34:36.attack on super casinos and the online industry and so on, a good
:34:36. > :34:41.deal the people criticising machines would see the rest of the
:34:41. > :34:50.gambling industry. It is not about making money. That is about
:34:50. > :34:56.allowing people to do what they want to do. It is a business. Why
:34:56. > :35:06.do you need so many in one place? As you mentioned, there is a limit
:35:06. > :35:16.on a number of machines. What was the rationale behind the Lynette? -
:35:16. > :35:22.
:35:22. > :35:25.- limit. Hands have shot up. There is a lady in a yellow. This
:35:25. > :35:29.gentleman is saying gambling is good for everyone and it is a
:35:29. > :35:38.freedom of choice. I am affected. My father was a gambler. We lost
:35:38. > :35:46.our house and were made homeless. The fact our whole life... How can
:35:46. > :35:51.you clarify gambling? You cannot say that. -- glorify. A my
:35:51. > :35:57.experience is similar to the last speaker. My father was a gambler
:35:57. > :36:07.back in the 50s and 60s and it affected our family life
:36:07. > :36:12.tremendously. Later on, he entered up working in a bookmaker's. Then
:36:12. > :36:20.he realised what a mug's game it was. Seeing it from the other side
:36:20. > :36:25.and all these hundreds of people losing money. Most people do it
:36:25. > :36:31.without a problem. Most people do. I have no problem with pubs. Most
:36:31. > :36:35.people go to pubs and had a drink with no problems. Some people
:36:35. > :36:42.become alcoholics. I do not think we can talk about gambling without
:36:42. > :36:48.talking about Ollie Scott. He is a young man of 18, in Birmingham,
:36:48. > :36:53.last year, who committed suicide. He did that because he had pay-day
:36:53. > :36:59.loans he had taken out. He had taken that out to support his
:36:59. > :37:06.gambling addiction. That was down to online and machine camping. It
:37:06. > :37:13.was fast and uncontrollable. -- gambling for so when we talk about
:37:13. > :37:23.gambling and should be controlled it, we should look at him and say,
:37:23. > :37:28.
:37:28. > :37:33.What we want to know is, how many people who play these machines have
:37:33. > :37:37.a problem with them? The last Labour government might have
:37:37. > :37:45.legitimise these machines on the gambling at that they were put on
:37:45. > :37:52.probation. They said there might be a problem and evidence that the
:37:52. > :37:59.machines are addictive. We have that evidence. Professor Jim Orford
:37:59. > :38:07.has estimated 23% of profits came from problem gamblers. That is �1.4
:38:07. > :38:11.million they made. That was a sample based on 25. Surveys have
:38:11. > :38:18.been done since the gambling Act was brought into force and a so
:38:18. > :38:22.that machines do not cause a problem gamblers. -- and they say.
:38:22. > :38:32.The average bet purse been in Newham - bearing in mind it is
:38:32. > :38:38.every 20 seconds - is �20. The average inserted in a machine is
:38:38. > :38:41.�55. It does not necessarily make them a problem gambler. Someone who
:38:42. > :38:46.puts on a �2 stake could have a problem with gambling while someone
:38:46. > :38:51.who put some �100 could have no problem with gambling. You need to
:38:51. > :38:59.keep it in perspective. If you need to look at the survey from the
:38:59. > :39:06.Gambling Commission. The number plainer machines has dropped in
:39:06. > :39:10.2012. -- playing on machines. not against gambling. Members of my
:39:10. > :39:15.family are involved in the gambling industry. If people were putting
:39:15. > :39:20.the same amount of money into a bookmaker's hand and making the
:39:20. > :39:25.same bet every 20 seconds, would they be betting as much? They would
:39:25. > :39:30.not. The reason why people get into trouble with computers and
:39:30. > :39:38.gambling... Stop shaking your head at bay. That is because there is no
:39:38. > :39:45.personal interaction involved. -- at me. We see this with porn and we
:39:45. > :39:51.see this with crime. If you had to give money to a bookmaker... You
:39:51. > :39:57.know that he is true. The facts are, the average spend in terms of time
:39:57. > :40:03.is 40 seconds. The average spend in terms of money is the �10. Keep it
:40:03. > :40:11.in perspective. Thank you very much for that. You can join in by
:40:11. > :40:14.logging on. Following the link to the online discussion. Send us your
:40:14. > :40:19.views about our last Big Question. Is it right to pick and mix
:40:19. > :40:22.religion? This is the final show of this series but we will be back in
:40:22. > :40:27.January 2014, so e-mail if you would like to be in one of the
:40:27. > :40:31.audiences next year. The Summer Solstice on Friday brought 21,000
:40:31. > :40:35.people to Stonehenge to watch the dawn. And they weren't all New Age
:40:35. > :40:38.travellers, ageing hippies or latter-day druids. There were many
:40:38. > :40:40.Christians there too, and people from other mainstream faiths
:40:40. > :40:50.seeking something spiritual amidst the crystals and the Tarot cards.
:40:50. > :40:51.
:40:52. > :40:57.Is it right to pick and mix To an extent, having thought about
:40:57. > :41:02.this, religions pick and mix religions. There is lots in the
:41:02. > :41:08.Bible and the Koran. Who knows what other pre- Christian, Preet Jewish
:41:08. > :41:13.myths were involved as well? Unless people are looking at Prix
:41:13. > :41:16.authoritarian communities, we live in an individual world. People make
:41:16. > :41:22.choices. In a religion, not everyone does everything. They
:41:22. > :41:27.choose things that are meaningful to them. It is about meaning. It is
:41:27. > :41:30.about a search for meaning. What we should be doing is to become a
:41:30. > :41:32.uplifted by the fact that people are on searches and they are
:41:33. > :41:36.interested in exploring different things because they are searching
:41:36. > :41:40.for meaning in their lives. There may be things within that own
:41:40. > :41:45.traditional community. You might find a lot of things in our own
:41:45. > :41:50.traditional community. They may find other things are needed. For
:41:50. > :41:55.example, more contemplation. There are a lot of Jewish Buddhists. If
:41:55. > :41:59.people are genuinely open and interested in spiritual matters,
:41:59. > :42:09.why wouldn't they explore other religious parts which also holds
:42:09. > :42:10.
:42:10. > :42:16.the truth? The issue of Jews for Jesus is slightly different. Only
:42:16. > :42:21.because, if people believe that Jesus is God, that obviously is
:42:21. > :42:27.contradictory to the idea there is only one God. It is picking and
:42:27. > :42:32.mixing to an extent. To an extent. I am not talking about Jews for
:42:32. > :42:37.Jesus. I am talking about people who are genuinely interested in
:42:37. > :42:43.exploring and binding out what different Christians believe, what
:42:43. > :42:47.a Muslim believes. They want to read the Koran. They want to find
:42:47. > :42:52.out and not be in a closed position where they're only going to believe
:42:52. > :42:55.in what they are told to believe them. I hope people will come along
:42:55. > :43:02.to the interface session this afternoon which is happening at the
:43:02. > :43:08.Church of the Good Shepherd. will be busy now. A Hindu speaker
:43:08. > :43:12.and myself and a Quaker speaker talking about our believes.
:43:12. > :43:17.goes way beyond religion and religion is kind of humankind's
:43:17. > :43:23.cack-handed efforts to fathom the unfathomable. The Catholic Church
:43:23. > :43:31.is interesting as a way of picking and mixing. Contraception -
:43:31. > :43:37.intrinsically evil - according to popes. And yet, according to one
:43:37. > :43:47.survey, 69% of Catholics used contraception. That is picking and
:43:47. > :43:48.
:43:48. > :43:54.mixing, isn't it? The reason why pick and mix - what is religion? It
:43:54. > :43:59.is not about us. It is about a search for the meaning of life and
:43:59. > :44:06.got an truth. Were they cannot pick and mix religion, if we have a
:44:06. > :44:11.genuine faith, we have a search for the trees. There will always be a
:44:11. > :44:16.point where there is intellectual conflict. If, as a Christian, we
:44:16. > :44:21.believe Jesus was the son of God, it is a revealed religion and we
:44:21. > :44:28.believe this is the truth, why are we going to believe there is Buddha
:44:28. > :44:34.and bits of Islam and Hinduism, it makes no coherent sense? There have
:44:34. > :44:40.been so many apologies. Copernicus was reburied, the African slave
:44:40. > :44:45.trade. They did not apologise to Charles Darwin but, you are right.
:44:45. > :44:49.What we are getting out here is the Catholic church, along with other
:44:49. > :44:56.churches, has, in the past, not always behave quite as it should
:44:56. > :45:06.have done. Fundamentally, the belief of God, the Barber, the son,
:45:06. > :45:13.
:45:13. > :45:17.the Holy spirit has never changed. Christian, a Muslim or a pagan, I
:45:17. > :45:22.have to respect that they have their own troops. Your approach is one
:45:22. > :45:28.which denies the truth of other beliefs. But there can only be one
:45:28. > :45:36.truth. There can only be one truth? As in we can have universal ethical
:45:36. > :45:45.truth, but, Nikki, are you wearing, I don't know, a black suit or a red
:45:45. > :45:47.suit? Which is true? Something is either true... I can list about 200
:45:47. > :45:52.Christian institutions across the world who believe that their truth
:45:52. > :45:56.is the truth, among those the Catholic Church, and the Catholic
:45:56. > :46:03.Church's idea of truth has evolved considerably over the years, and
:46:03. > :46:09.taking Italy between 300 and 400 AD. If we think we are here now, there
:46:09. > :46:13.are about 900,000 people in churches, about 2 million people in
:46:13. > :46:17.other kinds of churches across the country on a Sunday, on a regular
:46:17. > :46:20.Sunday. If you look at all the surveys dragging of my favourite
:46:20. > :46:23.statistic, if you ask people if they believe in God or any kind of
:46:23. > :46:29.firepower, and you strip out the ones who go to church, temple or
:46:29. > :46:34.mosque, 26 million people in Britain who say they believe in God but do
:46:34. > :46:39.not belong to an institution. Is it right to pick and mix? The fact is,
:46:39. > :46:47.the majority faith in Britain is pick and mix. It is all part of
:46:47. > :46:53.scrabbling away and this confusing world towards truth. I must speak to
:46:53. > :47:00.Kevin, how are you doing? I am very good this morning. You are looking
:47:00. > :47:06.absolutely resplendent. There you go. The has dressed up for us, in
:47:06. > :47:11.his which Lee robes. Basically, paganism in the modern age is about
:47:11. > :47:18.looking into oneself. I believe that a god and goddess we are all part
:47:18. > :47:25.of. We worship the universal forces. The believe in God? Not as a
:47:25. > :47:29.concept, if you mention religion, it means war. 300 years ago, I would
:47:29. > :47:36.not have been allowed to sit here, I would have been burned at the stake
:47:36. > :47:41.- or hung in England. And still people sitting here, like the lady
:47:41. > :47:46.over there, looking very lovely, I must say, but she said, there can
:47:46. > :47:51.only be one. I am not here to preach or dictate my belief system. I am
:47:51. > :47:56.here to say, this is what I believe in, as do other people. At the end
:47:56. > :48:00.of the programme, hopefully we will agree to differ, we can all go home,
:48:00. > :48:05.worship our own deities, and even your viewers, even if they just
:48:05. > :48:12.worship watching East End is... Allen used to say that, God go with
:48:12. > :48:19.you. There is a very interesting point, Exodus, suffer not a witch to
:48:19. > :48:24.live. You have picked and mixed that bit out. Absolutely not. As a
:48:24. > :48:30.Christian, we believe that Christ is the new covenant, so his law
:48:30. > :48:35.supersedes the old Testament. ignore the old Testament.
:48:35. > :48:38.appreciate, we say that Christ fulfilled the old Testament. Why do
:48:38. > :48:45.you ignore the bits in your Testament about homosexuality? Why
:48:45. > :48:50.not? Because it is very clear, Jesus talked very positively about
:48:50. > :48:57.marriage and what marriage is. Jesus was such a radical person, he was so
:48:57. > :49:01.radical! If Jesus wanted... People say that Jesus never talked about
:49:01. > :49:05.homosexuality... Jesus was Jewish, by the way, not Christian. If Christ
:49:05. > :49:09.wanted it, and I don't mean this in a bridge orotund sense, if you
:49:09. > :49:14.wanted to set out a bit of homosexuality, he would have done
:49:14. > :49:23.so. What did he say about witches, then? Did he invalidate the witch
:49:23. > :49:26.thing? Christ came and... Jesus has died. He came and said, love one
:49:26. > :49:30.another, you're two main commandments are to love the Lord
:49:30. > :49:34.your God with all your heart and soul, and stemming on from that is
:49:34. > :49:44.to love your neighbour as yourself will stop what if your neighbour is
:49:44. > :49:47.
:49:47. > :49:52.that goes to the heart of this. This is the arrogance of organised
:49:52. > :50:00.religion is saying, we have the truth, and we are in search of the
:50:00. > :50:05.truth. Critical thinking and rationality says, what you want to
:50:05. > :50:15.do is develop your appropriate morality for the society in which
:50:15. > :50:16.
:50:16. > :50:19.you live. Pick and mix is great, but religion is bigger than Woolworths.
:50:20. > :50:24.The 4200 identified religions in the world today, 4200, and that is not
:50:24. > :50:31.to mention the cults of intergalactic warriors and people
:50:31. > :50:36.like that. Coming on to that in a minute! 4200, and organised
:50:36. > :50:40.religion, the history of that is schism, split. For a while we are
:50:40. > :50:46.together, then we split and split again. Is it all right to pick and
:50:46. > :50:52.mix, a bit of this and that, Jewish, Buddhist, Christian, Hindu? I it
:50:52. > :50:57.lacks integrity and on standing of what faith is. I think, on the one
:50:57. > :51:01.side... You can't all be right!No, and I would say, why is searching
:51:01. > :51:05.for the truth seen as a bad thing? It doesn't have to be exclusive,
:51:05. > :51:09.that is different to what you are saying. What I would want to say is
:51:09. > :51:13.when you give yourself to a particular faith, worshipping a
:51:13. > :51:20.particular God, practices come out of worshipping that particular God
:51:20. > :51:23.that you worship, and sometimes it is pulling those things apart was so
:51:23. > :51:28.we see practices that are inherent, for example, within Christianity or
:51:28. > :51:32.Buddhism, issues or aspects of justice and peace. People look at
:51:32. > :51:37.those practices and say, yes, I would like to shake my life around
:51:37. > :51:41.those, those are things I want to do, and then they paste together
:51:41. > :51:46.that they are Christian and somehow Buddhist. But if we look back at
:51:46. > :51:49.what their beliefs are, that feed into those practices, those are
:51:49. > :51:53.quite different things which are mutually exclusive. But that is not
:51:53. > :52:00.to say you cannot learn and you cannot affirm that in another
:52:00. > :52:03.person. James. When people say, I do not mean to be pejorative, if
:52:03. > :52:08.someone has genuine faith, it does not matter how demurely once it's
:52:08. > :52:10.there, you are being incredibly judgment blind arrogance. It is not
:52:10. > :52:15.reserved in your right to cherry pick from other religions, it is
:52:15. > :52:20.with having the right to exercise intellect that God gave me and
:52:20. > :52:24.arrived at my own decisions. Last Sunday was the first Father's Day I
:52:24. > :52:30.have had since my father died, and I went to church, because I feel
:52:30. > :52:35.closer to him there, and I took my children with me. My children were
:52:35. > :52:39.born using fertility techniques that the head of the church I visited the
:52:39. > :52:43.leaves to be wrong and possibly satanically but I came out of church
:52:43. > :52:47.feeling better, so did my children, and I felt more loving towards my
:52:47. > :52:55.dad than I would have been if I didn't go to church. How can anyone
:52:55. > :52:58.tell me I am less of a Christian or I don't have a genuine faith?
:52:59. > :53:05.would be fascinated to know the answer to this question, so address
:53:05. > :53:10.it. Jodie here feels, she feels a relationship with God, am I right in
:53:10. > :53:16.saying that? Yes.You feel the power as well, don't you, Kevin? You
:53:16. > :53:19.really feel spiritual. Caroline, you are a fantastic woman, strong
:53:19. > :53:24.beliefs and faith, and you feel a relationship with Jesus, don't you?
:53:24. > :53:30.Definitely. What are they feeling? The difference between truth and
:53:30. > :53:33.sincerity... No, what is this?A person can sincerely believe that
:53:33. > :53:40.their belief is the truth, just because they do that does not mean
:53:40. > :53:44.it is necessarily true. But truth is external to the human being. We have
:53:44. > :53:49.just heard... Assuming we are not nihilists, the truth... What
:53:49. > :53:53.experience are they having? That depends on the individual, I don't
:53:53. > :53:55.know those individuals, but there is a truth, and you cannot pick and
:53:55. > :54:01.choose also dance troupe and makes it together. You believe in
:54:01. > :54:04.something. This society, people believe in absolutes, human rights
:54:04. > :54:09.as an absolute thing, and not everyone might share the liberal
:54:09. > :54:14.definition of human rights. Also, there are minorities in this society
:54:14. > :54:18.which are told what to believe and what not to believe. The one thing
:54:18. > :54:24.that has not been highlighted here, we are all talking about truth, and
:54:24. > :54:28.you know, I was really moved by what you said about going to church.
:54:28. > :54:33.James, yeah. On Father's Day. I think it is not a question of what
:54:33. > :54:36.we believe but why, and so when we are talking about critical thinking
:54:36. > :54:41.and rationality, I think there is an automatic assumption that those of
:54:41. > :54:45.us with a very deep faith are somehow brainwashed or we have lost
:54:45. > :54:48.the power of critical thought or rational thinking. But actually,
:54:48. > :54:52.particularly with Catholicism, everything is joined up, and if
:54:52. > :54:55.there is an area of faith that we particularly have difficulty with,
:54:55. > :55:01.and we know what the flash points are in the Catholic Church, for
:55:01. > :55:05.example, we have to ask ourselves, which I did, why? Why does the
:55:05. > :55:09.Catholic Church teach this? Why does is land each that? It is part of the
:55:09. > :55:16.search for truth, why? Not just saying, this is challenging and we
:55:16. > :55:23.have to ignore it. The one thing you do not need in this equation is... .
:55:23. > :55:26.-- is God. When you look at the great philosophers, the great
:55:27. > :55:34.writers, the great artists, scientists, you can't pick and mix
:55:34. > :55:40.from all the things. -- you can. You do not need a God in there. When you
:55:40. > :55:44.ask the question, Nicky, about what people are feeling, these people
:55:44. > :55:48.where different roads and reality is, well, I feel my connectedness to
:55:48. > :55:52.the people in this room. I wish everyone the best possible life they
:55:52. > :56:00.can have and I wish they be a in a way that is appropriate to the
:56:00. > :56:05.people around them. That is what I feel. You know, I am tempted to
:56:05. > :56:11.bring in the British bookmakers Association! What is the best bet?!
:56:11. > :56:14.Sorry, you wanted to come back. wanted to say this, that we have at
:56:14. > :56:17.least half a dozen different versions of truth around this
:56:17. > :56:21.meeting, but what is happening in the nation at there is that there
:56:21. > :56:24.are all these people who don't belong to any of these particular
:56:24. > :56:29.affiliations, who are making their own way and trying to work out their
:56:29. > :56:33.own understanding. That is fine, but what James says, he put his finger
:56:33. > :56:37.on it a little bit, because what those people and we lack is
:56:37. > :56:42.community. We look for community in other ways. James founded in church
:56:42. > :56:48.that day, other people find it in organisations like the Scouts, the
:56:48. > :56:53.guides, whatever. But also in their local club, charities, the way they
:56:53. > :56:58.subscribe. The legal parties. Political parties and football
:56:58. > :57:01.clubs. People are looking for community and improvising an
:57:01. > :57:06.alternative to the community they once found in their religion, their
:57:06. > :57:10.default religion. So actually, really, there is no point in half a
:57:10. > :57:13.dozen people in a marketplace shouting louder and louder to say, I
:57:13. > :57:19.have the certainty, because people are not interested in that. They
:57:19. > :57:26.want to be able to mediate their own experience of God. Is it okayed to
:57:26. > :57:35.pick and mix religion? No, is it is not. The problem we have with this
:57:35. > :57:40.is the person of Jesus, because we seek to follow Jesus. He was God
:57:40. > :57:44.come among us, and not only, he said, I am the way, the truth and
:57:44. > :57:50.the like, no one comes to the father but me. Will God punish you for
:57:50. > :57:56.picking and mixing? What Jesus says is that the Bible speaks of humanity
:57:56. > :58:01.in terms of being lost, in terms of, when it comes to eternity and
:58:01. > :58:06.life after death, that we cannot find our own way there, and that is
:58:06. > :58:10.why Jesus came, to show us the way there. So the way is through Jesus.
:58:10. > :58:18.If you are lost and someone says, let me show you the way, you for
:58:18. > :58:21.them. You might get mugged around the corner, though! If you decide
:58:21. > :58:26.halfway that you are going to go somewhere else, that your