:00:25. > :00:29.APPLAUSE Good morning. A warm welcome to the
:00:29. > :00:33.Big Questions from Hutchesons Grammar School in Glasgow. I'm
:00:33. > :00:37.Nicky Campbell. Lance Armstrong admitted he was a liar and a cheat.
:00:38. > :00:42.He taken drugs when winning all seven of his Tour de France
:00:42. > :00:47.victories and lied about it since. His public confession to Oprah
:00:47. > :00:53.Winfrey, which he said too late for most people and that's my fault. Is
:00:53. > :00:56.it ever too late to confess? Former racing cyclist, Richard Moore said
:00:56. > :01:03.Lance Armstrong's confession is to preserve himself rather than
:01:03. > :01:13.cleanse his soul. This Buddhist says the Konger it takes to confess,
:01:13. > :01:14.
:01:14. > :01:18.the longer it takes for forgiveness to be granted. These days it seems
:01:18. > :01:23.that girls are encouraged to grow up as fast as they can. Our next
:01:23. > :01:27.big question, are girl being robbed of their innocence? This girl's
:01:27. > :01:37.youth worker say there is too much pressure on girls to worry about
:01:37. > :01:38.
:01:38. > :01:47.their looks and to be appealing to boys. This sociologist says that
:01:47. > :01:57.society is more open about sex. The All Party Parliamentary Group for
:01:57. > :02:00.
:02:00. > :02:04.Drug Policy Reform called for legal drugs to be sold in shops. Baroness
:02:04. > :02:11.Meacher said it is time there was a legitimate supply. This doctor says
:02:11. > :02:17.there are chemicals that are wrecking young lives and doctors
:02:17. > :02:23.have no drugs to save them. Welcome to the Big Questions.
:02:23. > :02:28.I view this situation as one big lie. I repeated a lot of times. I
:02:28. > :02:32.made made those dicircumstances and I am here to say sorry. Lance
:02:32. > :02:38.Armstrong confessed to Oprah Winfrey, but he had no answer when
:02:38. > :02:43.she asked why he had denied these allegation for -- allegations for
:02:43. > :02:47.13 years. Is it ever too late to confess? Richard Moore what kind of
:02:47. > :02:52.a confession was this? It is difficult to know as you mentioned
:02:52. > :02:57.he is a liar as well as a doper and there are two offences there.
:02:57. > :03:02.Perhaps one can be forgiven and not the other. When someone has lied
:03:02. > :03:06.for so long and very convincingly it is difficult to know if what he
:03:06. > :03:12.is saying now is the truth. There are partial truths in there, but
:03:12. > :03:18.you have a problem of how much confidence can you invest in in
:03:18. > :03:21.this guy. He has lied until a few weeks ago and although he tried to
:03:21. > :03:29.distance himself from this terrible creature who he referred to as the
:03:29. > :03:33.third person who lied for so long, it will take longer than that.
:03:33. > :03:38.Do you think there is an element of lying to yourself all along?
:03:38. > :03:43.think so, yeah. He did mention, although he was apologising, he did
:03:43. > :03:47.say that at the time it didn't feel like cheating and so, I think that
:03:48. > :03:52.that is a culture of cheating whereby you know, we have seen it
:03:52. > :03:56.in other cultures of cheating, whether it be MPs expenses where
:03:56. > :04:00.people don't think they are doing anything wrong. The wrongdoing is...
:04:01. > :04:07.Until they are caught? wrongdoing is kind of validated by
:04:07. > :04:10.the behaviour of those around them. Tim, what do you think, the
:04:11. > :04:15.Scottish Humanists, the whole notion of confession? Well, if you
:04:15. > :04:20.confess something, you have got got to do it in a timely way and you
:04:20. > :04:22.need to do it to the people that you have actually hurt.
:04:22. > :04:26.APPLAUSE It is about finding... You have to
:04:26. > :04:32.go to the person you have hurt and say sorry. There is another apology
:04:32. > :04:36.a few years ago, Tony Blair apologised for Britain's role in
:04:36. > :04:39.the slave trade and its part in the Irish famine. What he didn't do is
:04:39. > :04:42.leading us into an illegal war in Iraq.
:04:42. > :04:47.He doesn't believe it is an illegal war.
:04:47. > :04:52.The notion that you can go into, you know, a dark box and tell
:04:52. > :05:01.someone your deepest secrets and be absolved of your sin, it doesn't
:05:01. > :05:04.work for people like me. What you have to do is tell, you know, you
:05:04. > :05:12.have to apologise directly to people. Yeah. Yeah.
:05:12. > :05:16.APPLAUSE ? Jimmy Savile is a papal knight.
:05:16. > :05:20.We don't know if he apologised for the awful things he did. So it is
:05:20. > :05:26.only humanity that can forgive and it is only human beings that should
:05:26. > :05:31.apologise. Well, this is a good point to bring
:05:31. > :05:37.Liz in. You are editor of the Catholic observer? That's correct.
:05:37. > :05:41.You believe, let's ask you if first. Confession is good for the soul?
:05:41. > :05:48.Absolutely. With no disrespect, we have different opinions, but the
:05:48. > :05:53.sacrament of confession is not a get out of jail free card. The
:05:53. > :05:57.sacrament of confession is a step to make reparations. You have to
:05:57. > :06:01.have a genuine act of contrition and you have to, it is a promise, a
:06:01. > :06:06.hope, to make amends to the parties that you have offended and it is
:06:06. > :06:11.not going into that confession box and speaking to one man. The prise
:06:12. > :06:16.acts as a conduit between the confessor and God.
:06:16. > :06:23.If Jimmy Savile was and you mentioned Jimmy Savile, if he was
:06:23. > :06:27.as we here he was a devout Catholic, a papal knight and he made a
:06:27. > :06:32.genuine and full confession near his, near the time of his death.
:06:32. > :06:37.Would that wipe the slate clean? Not at all. Your act of confession
:06:37. > :06:42.is a step towards making amends and we will all be judged, I believe,
:06:42. > :06:47.when we die. We will have to stand up for the life that we lead and
:06:47. > :06:51.explain our self to God. So an act of confession would be a step in
:06:51. > :06:55.the right direction, but it is not wiping any slate clean.
:06:55. > :07:00.It doesn't work work for me, you have to say sorry to the people you
:07:00. > :07:07.have hurt. Which I agree with. You are too young to remember this
:07:07. > :07:12.Nicky. There was a a scandal when the then Secretary of State for War
:07:12. > :07:16.had affair. He resigned and vanished into the east end of
:07:16. > :07:22.London where he did good works as a volunteer cleaning toilets for a
:07:22. > :07:26.charity. Now, I think, people agree that he redeemed himself by what he
:07:26. > :07:29.did and whether it is Lance Armstrong or anybody else, it is,
:07:29. > :07:39.you know, what Lance Armstrong can do is take a leave out of his book,
:07:39. > :07:50.
:07:50. > :07:51.get off the bike, clean some toilets and come back in 30 years.
:07:51. > :07:53.APPLAUSE Surely the point is that that act
:07:53. > :07:56.of confession isn't a kind of buying forgiveness, it is the
:07:56. > :07:57.journey of forgiveness. It is the point that there are a series of
:07:57. > :08:00.broken relationships there. Relationships to be repaired,
:08:00. > :08:04.require that act of forgiveness and you need to open that door. Now it
:08:04. > :08:07.maybe that to to got to the point where you can sorry to the point
:08:07. > :08:10.you really need to, you need to confess to somebody else to begin
:08:10. > :08:16.to make sense of the awful thing that you have done. So that the
:08:16. > :08:21.confession is part of that process, rather than a sense of wiping the
:08:21. > :08:24.slate clean. We live in a world that want it instantly and human
:08:24. > :08:28.relationships are more complex so this is the beginning of that
:08:28. > :08:32.process rather than saying I can get it sorted and I want it.
:08:32. > :08:36.Is there a danger with the notion of confession, the Catholic notion
:08:36. > :08:41.of confession, if you think you can wipe the slate clean, it gives you
:08:41. > :08:45.encouragement to carry on sinning because you can deal with it.
:08:45. > :08:49.the Catholic sacrament of confession doesn't teach you that
:08:50. > :08:54.you are wiping the slate clean, it teaches you that you are putting
:08:54. > :08:58.yourself in a a position to seek forgiveness. I think it is also
:08:58. > :09:02.something that people, it is fantastic that our society is
:09:03. > :09:07.recognising the value of confession either as a sacrament or just as a
:09:07. > :09:11.human act. You know, people are saying that our society has moved
:09:11. > :09:18.past religious routes, but here we are talking about something like
:09:18. > :09:24.confession and I find that very encouraging.
:09:24. > :09:29.APPLAUSE OK. I disagree when he says it
:09:29. > :09:32.doesn't matter whether Lance Armstrong meant it. There has to be
:09:32. > :09:36.genuine contrition. If you look at that case, he was asked a few weeks
:09:36. > :09:40.ago to say what he said to Oprah Winfrey, but to the world doping
:09:40. > :09:45.board and give them evidence be asked to be questioned and he
:09:45. > :09:52.refused and there is a gap there. I am a Christian, but I am not a
:09:52. > :09:57.Roman clath lick, I don't go to a priest to confess, confess confess
:09:57. > :10:02.but if I speak to the people I may have hurt or I pray to my own God
:10:02. > :10:11.and just in the way that this lady has spoken, we have to find our own
:10:11. > :10:16.peace in our own way and fin the way we can move forward.
:10:16. > :10:20.The Lance Armstrong's confession is not a good example. You have to be
:10:20. > :10:25.sin veer as part of that -- sincere as part of that journey.
:10:25. > :10:29.Is it doing more harm than good if it is a partial confession?
:10:29. > :10:38.comes back to what Tim said. What matters now is what he does now to
:10:38. > :10:44.make real the words that he said. Pay the money back? He has got $11
:10:44. > :10:49.million in his pocket. It is what he does over the next 10 or 10 or
:10:49. > :10:54.20 years. Well, he can he can stop whining
:10:54. > :10:58.about the fact that he got a bigger sentence than other people.
:10:58. > :11:03.He said, "I don't deserve the death sentence." He is maybe still
:11:03. > :11:07.justifying it and trying to vindicate himself? And saying that
:11:07. > :11:12.it is not fair that eleven other people involved in this with me
:11:12. > :11:17.only got six months and and refusing to help the anti-doping
:11:17. > :11:25.board and it maybe a step on the the journey, but it seems to be a
:11:25. > :11:30.small step that got him a lot of coverage in a way that he wants to
:11:30. > :11:34.rehabilitate himself and gone on to make more money and have more
:11:34. > :11:39.future success. What about the illegal aides for
:11:39. > :11:45.sportsmen? That's wrong and I think motivation in terms of what he is
:11:45. > :11:48.doing is really important. I think the other thing is that Oprah
:11:48. > :11:55.Winfrey's in the business of entertainment. That's why she is
:11:55. > :12:00.doing this programme. For him to go on Oprah and this celebrity media
:12:00. > :12:05.circus. APPLAUSE
:12:05. > :12:10.I agree totally. I don't think we can think of it as some journey. It
:12:10. > :12:15.was a media circuit. That's what he is used to and that's what he has
:12:15. > :12:17.done all along and he is still doing it. A number of advisers
:12:17. > :12:20.would have come up with that strategy and talking to people I
:12:20. > :12:25.don't think it has worked. I think it backfired.
:12:25. > :12:30.It was interesting that Ruth that he referred to the sporting ban as
:12:30. > :12:34.equivalent to a death sentence and this perhaps hints at his biggest
:12:34. > :12:37.problem that for somebody who has only ever known competition, he
:12:37. > :12:41.cannot envisage a life without competition. If he mansion to get
:12:41. > :12:44.over -- manages to get over that problem that could be his path
:12:44. > :12:48.towards finding some peace with himself at least.
:12:48. > :12:57.I think he needs some help and there is clearly a lot of anger
:12:57. > :13:02.about him and about Savile, but in a case like this what you need is
:13:02. > :13:06.restorative justice. You need to bring the person who has done the
:13:06. > :13:11.wrong against the people who he has done it and help him understand why
:13:11. > :13:14.he has done it and that is a process we should be adopting more.
:13:14. > :13:20.That's an important point. This is very much about Lance Armstrong
:13:20. > :13:23.himself and I'm sure he is self centred and his vote vation was
:13:23. > :13:27.something -- motivation was something else. I don't think he
:13:27. > :13:30.was thinking about the wrong he did. Too often the focus is on the
:13:30. > :13:38.perpetrator and not on the victims and we need to turn that around and
:13:38. > :13:41.think about the victims. The point is, is it ever too late to confess?
:13:41. > :13:46.Absolutely not. What do you think about this
:13:46. > :13:50.confession? About Lance Armstrong's if he was going to apologise to
:13:50. > :13:55.everybody that he hurt and damaged, it would take him a long time and a
:13:55. > :14:04.long road. There are many millions of people who have been full of
:14:04. > :14:08.admiration for him and he has done this for so long that it would take
:14:08. > :14:13.up a great deal to unravel the pain and the damage that he has done. He
:14:13. > :14:17.has only started on his own journey of admitting to what he has done in
:14:17. > :14:19.a way that he can explain to others. Is that what any of us have to do
:14:19. > :14:24.in a situation like this? It is important that you start with
:14:24. > :14:27.yourself and you recognise that you have done something wrong and and
:14:27. > :14:30.once you have you have done that for yourself, you can explain it to
:14:30. > :14:34.other people and you have to take your place in asking for
:14:34. > :14:39.forgiveness and apologising and do what you can to demonstrate that
:14:39. > :14:43.the process of confession starts the process of rediscovering
:14:43. > :14:48.yourself and putting yourself back into a place in the community where
:14:48. > :14:53.you are doing something worthwhile. Have you been through that that?
:14:53. > :14:59.Yes. What did you have to apologise for?
:14:59. > :15:09.I embezzled money and I was sen to prison for it. The punishment is
:15:09. > :15:15.
:15:15. > :15:22.For me it started in prison and it went on from there and it is seven
:15:22. > :15:27.years and it is still going on. APPLAUSE. The act of confession
:15:27. > :15:32.does not release you from what you have done. It is how you moved on
:15:32. > :15:36.and have you -- how you build something new beyond that. Everyone
:15:36. > :15:40.has these different views on things but it does come down to how you
:15:41. > :15:45.live with yourself and how you sleep at night. I think lots
:15:45. > :15:49.Armstrong is going to have some difficulty with that, unless he
:15:49. > :15:57.takes some pills or stop laughter Macros. That is how we got into
:15:57. > :16:02.this mess in the first place -- unless he takes some pills.
:16:02. > :16:09.LAUGHTER. Did you get to say sorry? I did apologise but they were dead
:16:09. > :16:15.so I could not a have restorative justice. If I could, I would. But
:16:15. > :16:25.it is impossible. So I have to do it to society at large and not to
:16:25. > :16:26.
:16:26. > :16:31.individual roles. It is about Emma O'Reilly, Betsy, the people who are
:16:31. > :16:36.still furious, and if you are going to make a proper confession, does
:16:36. > :16:42.it necessarily mean, as the world Dougan authority seemed to suggest,
:16:42. > :16:47.that you will have to implicate others -- the anti-doping agency.
:16:47. > :16:51.It is a huge step and it is about all those different relationships
:16:51. > :16:55.and then lie in different shapes and forms. Does he have the right
:16:56. > :16:59.to implicate others? He has to begin with himself but the others
:16:59. > :17:03.also have to live with the fact they have chosen to do things that
:17:04. > :17:08.are wrong as well and if a light is shining on them, they need to make
:17:08. > :17:13.a choice as to whether they make the confession themselves or
:17:13. > :17:17.continue to be in denial, but as we often see, concession is not just
:17:17. > :17:23.about, I have realised I have done something wrong and I want to
:17:23. > :17:27.confess, there is also the point way you are challenged and you need
:17:27. > :17:34.to confess as well. There is nothing wrong with that in itself
:17:34. > :17:39.but it will come back to his capacity to live up to his word.
:17:39. > :17:42.Regarding restorative justice, you also need to be ready for that. It
:17:42. > :17:48.is a good thing but the participants need to be ready for
:17:48. > :17:52.it. It is not just saying, I apologise. The person receiving the
:17:52. > :17:57.apology needs to be ready to receive that as well. That is a
:17:57. > :18:04.part of the journey as well. you think about implicated others,
:18:04. > :18:08.grassing people up, if Armstrong had done that they could be moral
:18:08. > :18:13.questions? It may have been difficult to do on the Oprah
:18:13. > :18:18.Winfrey programme but there is a time and a place. The apology must
:18:18. > :18:23.be given to the people that he heard. The admission needs to be
:18:23. > :18:27.made with the authorities under oath -- people that he hurt. Former
:18:27. > :18:33.team-mates of Armstrong have won a kind of redemption by grassing on
:18:33. > :18:36.Armstrong in particular, and it is odd because in normal society it is
:18:36. > :18:41.about taking responsibility for your misdemeanours and confessing
:18:41. > :18:48.to those but in sport, such a tangled web of people, doctors,
:18:48. > :18:52.drug companies, governing bodies, it is a tangled web and the only
:18:52. > :18:58.way for Armstrong to possibly win redemption in the cycling world is
:18:58. > :19:01.by opening that whole structure down. Good morning. Certainly
:19:01. > :19:07.people have a responsibility if they know crimes have been
:19:07. > :19:10.committed, they should definitely tell. There are many people
:19:10. > :19:14.particularly in the media who knew about Jimmy Savile's crimes and did
:19:14. > :19:19.not say anything and that man has died without being brought to
:19:19. > :19:24.justice. APPLAUSE. You must see the at a lot.
:19:24. > :19:29.It is about having the right culture and the right understanding.
:19:29. > :19:33.A -- you must see this a lot. case of Jimmy Savile is a good
:19:33. > :19:38.example. We felt and the media failed to have the right culture in
:19:38. > :19:43.place for people to stand up and say, that is not right. Come
:19:44. > :19:48.forward. You need to be brave enough to stand up. That is for the
:19:48. > :19:51.whole of society. The difference is now it is that people did come
:19:51. > :19:55.forward when Jimmy Savile was active and they were not listened
:19:56. > :20:01.to and that is what puts people off from coming forward. What is the
:20:01. > :20:08.point if no one is listening? a different culture now. The yes.
:20:08. > :20:10.Thank you very much indeed. APPLAUSE If you'd like to add to
:20:10. > :20:14.that debate, just log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions, and
:20:14. > :20:18.follow the link to where you can join in online. Or follow the
:20:18. > :20:22.discussion on Twitter. We're also debating live this morning from
:20:22. > :20:26.Glasgow: SShould it be legal to get high? And are girls being robbed of
:20:27. > :20:30.their innocence? Tell us what you think about those topics, or send
:20:30. > :20:35.us your ideas for future debates or any general comments you'd like to
:20:35. > :20:38.make about the programme. The aforementioned Jimmy Savile.
:20:38. > :20:45.The Jimmy Savile inquiry has shown there is nothing new about young
:20:45. > :20:48.teenage girls being treated as sexual objects. But now this
:20:48. > :20:50.happens at even younger ages, with make-up and provocative clothes
:20:50. > :20:55.being targeted at under-tens. Are girls being robbed of their
:20:56. > :21:01.innocence? Kim Smith, you think that is very much the case. Was it
:21:01. > :21:06.ever thus? Have young girls not always wanted to be older girls?
:21:06. > :21:10.Dress like them? Behave like them? It is natural for children to want
:21:10. > :21:15.to grow up but I think perhaps one of the differences when I grew up
:21:15. > :21:24.in the 70s was that was often seen as an act of rebellion. You tested
:21:24. > :21:29.the boundaries by the close that you war. Now -- by the clothes that
:21:29. > :21:34.you were wearing. Now girls that do not dress in a certain weight or
:21:34. > :21:39.have an obsession with their body image may be ostracised. They are
:21:39. > :21:44.often bullied and seen as being different. It is a conformity to an
:21:44. > :21:49.identity that may not fit the individual child. There is also
:21:49. > :21:54.pressure on boys to conform to a certain masculinity. Why is it
:21:54. > :22:00.getting worse? It is difficult to say but certainly one influence we
:22:00. > :22:04.are concerned about is a lot of the messages in a culture. Music videos,
:22:04. > :22:10.advertising, television, that includes more content that his
:22:10. > :22:14.sexual, but particularly with messages about sexual violence like
:22:14. > :22:17.violence against women and that is translating to lots of young boys
:22:18. > :22:22.and girls seeing that that is OK. That it is normal for your
:22:22. > :22:26.boyfriend to be controlling and obsessive. That is affecting how
:22:26. > :22:30.young people are developing their own identity and personal safety
:22:30. > :22:38.and the risk of not being able to develop healthy, reciprocal
:22:38. > :22:44.relationships. Is their validity in this or is this a bit of moral
:22:44. > :22:50.outrage? The issue is often framed in terms of, our young girls being
:22:50. > :22:54.robbed of their innocent? Innocence is taking as being a natural
:22:54. > :23:04.quality and popular culture will take it away. We don't understand
:23:04. > :23:04.
:23:05. > :23:08.what we mean by him -- by innocence. Childhood. And as a culture we
:23:09. > :23:15.associate childhood by innocence but what do we mean? Innocent from
:23:15. > :23:20.what? Children inhabit the same world that we do? Sexually aware?
:23:20. > :23:24.Sexually active? They are two very different things. I don't think
:23:25. > :23:27.anybody would argue that children should not be sexually aware. The
:23:27. > :23:37.danger often missed if they are not sexually aware.
:23:37. > :23:44.APPLAUSE Yeah. Necessary. definitions of sexual activities.
:23:44. > :23:49.Pretty big. My conception might be very different to that of a nine-
:23:50. > :23:53.year-old. Well, yes. It is not helpful to frame this in terms of
:23:53. > :23:58.morality because young people need to have good quality information
:23:58. > :24:04.and support from adults, teachers, parents, or other adults, faith
:24:04. > :24:08.community leaders, to be able to develop their own sense of self-
:24:08. > :24:12.and to enter into relationships where they are not at risk of being
:24:12. > :24:15.harmed or causing harm but that is where the difficulty comes because
:24:15. > :24:22.there is a lot of pressure, reinforced by peer pressure, to
:24:22. > :24:28.behave in a certain way which could put them at risk. We have got
:24:28. > :24:33.competing discourses and perhaps young women are more under pressure
:24:33. > :24:41.from these competing discourses. You mentioned St Agnes, the patron
:24:41. > :24:45.saint of virginity and chastity. How many of those are for men, to
:24:45. > :24:54.protect their virginity and tough titty? A discourse is attempting to
:24:54. > :25:02.shape not just the way young women look -- they ate virginity and
:25:02. > :25:08.chastity. The ubiquitous nature and accessibility of porn and now, some
:25:08. > :25:15.would argue that that teaches objectification? Pornography has
:25:15. > :25:20.been around since people studied drawing. Accessibility is different
:25:20. > :25:26.but pornography was a round since I was a young woman. Somehow I have
:25:26. > :25:31.managed to escape objectification myself and a lot of young women do.
:25:31. > :25:36.We have the capacity to act differently and so do young people.
:25:36. > :25:41.You got the director of 18 beauty pageant in the UK. Is there
:25:41. > :25:47.anything wrong with a 13-year-old walking down a catwalk in make-up
:25:48. > :25:52.and a short skirt? You can take it another way, is there anything
:25:52. > :25:56.wrong with young girls doing dance competitions since the age of six?
:25:56. > :26:01.They are being judged on their looks. They are not just been
:26:01. > :26:06.judged on their looks, it is about the whole package, that is a
:26:06. > :26:10.misconception. From the age of 13 it is deemed in this country that a
:26:10. > :26:15.girl is able to make a decision and if they want to do it for a chosen
:26:15. > :26:22.reason, whether it be to build self-confidence or just have fun,
:26:22. > :26:27.is there anything wrong with that? Do you have children? No. How does
:26:27. > :26:31.it builds up confidence? We have many contestants that were very
:26:31. > :26:36.timid and quiet and I had one dad ring the up and say, my daughter
:26:36. > :26:42.came to you and she was really quiet and now she has the self-
:26:42. > :26:47.confidence and she wants to go out and do other things. That is the
:26:47. > :26:51.key. It is about building confidence. A whole bunch of other
:26:51. > :26:56.young women lose their competence as a consequence of the kind of
:26:56. > :27:01.things that you do -- lose their confidence. They cannot achieve
:27:01. > :27:06.this perfect model you have created. I can promise you you would not run
:27:06. > :27:10.a teen beauty pageant without the catwalk. You require that as part
:27:10. > :27:13.of the central piece. You are destroying the capacity for young
:27:13. > :27:17.people to discover who they are as young people before they get to
:27:17. > :27:23.adulthood. If you give them a platform to do it, you can allow
:27:23. > :27:31.them to do it. We have had contestants that are size 16.
:27:31. > :27:36.is wrong with that? Nothing at all! You said, we have even had
:27:36. > :27:41.contestants that are size 16! Because people think beauty
:27:41. > :27:50.pageants only allow people who are a certain size. Did they win?
:27:50. > :27:58.have had a winner that is not size 6. It wasn't a size 16? No, not in
:27:58. > :28:02.that age category. But it is difficult. Rachel is twitching!
:28:02. > :28:09.is very uncomfortable. We are talking about young women, their
:28:09. > :28:13.body shape, this size. There is a real gender dimension. It is less
:28:13. > :28:22.to do with sex, it is more to do with gender and equality.
:28:22. > :28:27.APPLAUSE. I think over a number of years, this has not gone away, we
:28:27. > :28:31.have always talked about this, particularly of girls for a long
:28:31. > :28:39.time, but where is the public discourse about how we teach boys
:28:39. > :28:43.how to behave? Where are the role models? That may sound old
:28:43. > :28:49.fashioned but where it can we show them to be as successful man you do
:28:49. > :28:54.not have to be dominant or an alpha male, but you can be a gentleman
:28:54. > :28:58.that looks out for other people's meets. To tell boys that it is OK
:28:58. > :29:03.to not be the best person on the football field and the hardest boy
:29:03. > :29:07.in the class but it is much better to have these kinds of personal
:29:07. > :29:12.relationship and contribute to society? You got such a rapturous
:29:12. > :29:18.round of applause from this gentleman. Good morning. I take
:29:18. > :29:23.that point, if she doesn't mind. I have to say that if there is
:29:23. > :29:29.anything missing from the education system and the way we allow young
:29:30. > :29:35.boys to grow up into men, it is we are not teaching them properly how
:29:35. > :29:39.to be gentlemen and that is what it all comes down to. If we teach
:29:39. > :29:47.young boys how to become gentleman when we grow up, I think half the
:29:47. > :29:51.problems we have today would be You are nodding? It goes back to
:29:51. > :29:54.they they talk about women and sexlisation of young ladies, you
:29:54. > :29:58.look at what happens to blokes. You watch these TV shows. You are
:29:58. > :30:03.supposed to have the six pack. You are supposed to have this. You are
:30:03. > :30:07.supposed to have that as the male in today's world and it seems to be
:30:07. > :30:10.pushed away and everybody seems to take it back towards girls rather
:30:10. > :30:14.than towards, well actually it is on both sides of the fence and it
:30:14. > :30:17.needs to be looked at as a hole. -- whole.
:30:18. > :30:21.If you look in the last few generations, when I grew up, we
:30:21. > :30:25.were out on our skates and we were free spirits. We had a great
:30:25. > :30:32.childhood and there is time enough when girls get to 16 and boys for
:30:32. > :30:35.that matter to start start doing things like walking up and down
:30:35. > :30:40.catwalks. It is important that we let them be free spirits because
:30:40. > :30:45.life is so complicated later on. Who are the shows for?
:30:45. > :30:51.themselves. They are for themselves. The events that we hold are closed
:30:51. > :30:55.events and for their own... But you are not making money out TV. This
:30:55. > :30:59.is comodification of young women for business interests.
:30:59. > :31:04.We offer them a chance to progress. Take for instance, we had a teen
:31:04. > :31:09.winner who went on to win our event and we took her over to America...
:31:09. > :31:14.So are you a not-for-profit company then? We fund... You took her to
:31:14. > :31:17.America and chapped? She got scouted when she was over there and
:31:17. > :31:23.she is a Bollywood movie star and she was offered that opportunity
:31:23. > :31:27.because of that. But is that the ultimate? It is about making money
:31:27. > :31:32.and using young women to make money The biggest problem that we have
:31:32. > :31:35.got here the discussion is about sexlisation of young girls...
:31:35. > :31:41.you understand why people think, if you have 13-year-olds on the
:31:42. > :31:48.catwalk that people think you are sex liesing them? We don't have
:31:48. > :31:51.them in skimpy clothes. They have their own fashion round and we have
:31:51. > :31:54.the Sportsround and they have the formal round. We spoke to the
:31:54. > :32:01.people that we needed to speak to make sure that we don't put them in
:32:01. > :32:05.that situation. The problem is in this country there is no gof no gof
:32:05. > :32:10.governing body. We have been trying to fight for a governing body, but
:32:10. > :32:16.the Government say no. You have done this. What's your name?
:32:16. > :32:19.Melissa. Did you find it helped your self
:32:19. > :32:24.esteem. My first pageant I went in, I was
:32:25. > :32:28.second. I went to the UK final and I was taught how to be a lady,
:32:28. > :32:33.project myself and a few years later, I carried on with pageanting
:32:33. > :32:36.and I grew in confidence. It made me go for different jobs. I
:32:36. > :32:42.contacted the Prince's Trust and now I have my own business. Well
:32:42. > :32:45.done, but 17 is a lot older than 13. It is a different ball game when
:32:45. > :32:49.you are 17. You are getting ready to become a young lady, but the
:32:49. > :32:54.fact is that we have got the internet these days. We have got -
:32:54. > :32:59.people have got so much pressure on on them from from their peers to
:32:59. > :33:04.act in a certain way. They are not having home cooked dinners with
:33:04. > :33:08.their family anymore. We need to to preserve our youth and let our kids
:33:08. > :33:13.be young when they are young before it gets too complicated.
:33:13. > :33:15.There is a lady back there. Hello. The problem is a much bigger one,
:33:16. > :33:19.it is about society as well. We have forgotten what is important
:33:19. > :33:24.and what should be a good role model. We glorify people who are
:33:24. > :33:27.famous for the sake of being famous rather than saying to our young
:33:27. > :33:34.people, "Look at this person. Look at what they have achieved. Look at
:33:34. > :33:37.what they stand for.". We have back shallow. We are a shallow
:33:37. > :33:47.reflection of the things that are important and that's at the heart
:33:47. > :33:49.
:33:49. > :33:52.of the problem. APPLAUSE
:33:53. > :33:55.In our society now, if we look at our society in the span of history,
:33:55. > :33:59.women are achieving more. Women are more educated and indeed, you could
:33:59. > :34:04.argue and more protected girls than ever before. Up until the 1870s
:34:04. > :34:14.there wasn't really a proper concept of childhood. The age of
:34:14. > :34:14.
:34:14. > :34:22.consent was 1 in this country and if we look at biblical, the Virgin
:34:22. > :34:26.Mary was between 10 and 12 years old. Mohammed's first wife was ten.
:34:26. > :34:34.If you are running the argument that because there is universal
:34:34. > :34:39.sufferage and some women succeed in areas they didn't before... More
:34:39. > :34:42.than before. That is possibly showing a view that most women and
:34:42. > :34:45.most men wouldn't agree with. It should be the norm that your gender
:34:45. > :34:50.isn't taken into consideration when you are going tor something like a
:34:50. > :34:54.job. It should be the best candidate. There has been a change.
:34:54. > :34:59.There has been a change in consumerisation when it comes to
:34:59. > :35:04.women. I'm 34, so I am not that old. I remember growing up that major
:35:04. > :35:08.department stores would have a kids section and the clothes in the kids
:35:08. > :35:11.section would be different from the clothes in the adult section. Now
:35:11. > :35:15.they are not. Now they are similar. You have got companies who are
:35:15. > :35:19.selling toddlers shoes and the gimmick is you get a free piece of
:35:19. > :35:25.make-up for the toddler when you sell shoes to a three-year-old.
:35:25. > :35:28.That's something that changed in my lifetime. I am not sure there is a
:35:28. > :35:36.legislative solution for that, but it is something that we as society
:35:36. > :35:41.have to discuss. And division by gender that is something that has
:35:41. > :35:47.changed. Starting from the cradle upwards and in a way that sets a
:35:47. > :35:57.stage for girls behaving certain characteristics and boys other.
:35:57. > :36:04.
:36:04. > :36:08.Rachel, what about the Elizabeth Buttle Sloss, sexualisation of
:36:08. > :36:14.girls softens abuse. Do you buy that argument? No, we have been
:36:14. > :36:18.talking about Jimmy Savile. 1970s in terms of prolific abuse and we
:36:18. > :36:20.are talking about sexualisation now. I don't like to draw those
:36:21. > :36:24.correlations because we tend to start thinking about is it
:36:24. > :36:28.something about girls rather than it something about... No, we don't
:36:28. > :36:37.think that, but do some people think that? Probably, they do,
:36:37. > :36:44.probably they do. So Elizabeth Buttle Sloss is right? She is right
:36:44. > :36:48.to say that some people think that. She is trying to explain police and
:36:48. > :36:53.judges not taking it and gangs of men doing it? That's to do with
:36:53. > :36:58.with gender. For a long time we have had victims of sexual crime,
:36:58. > :37:06.not being taken seriously. Is it something to do with them rather
:37:06. > :37:16.than the actual perpetrator. I think one of the things we are
:37:16. > :37:23.
:37:23. > :37:27.seeing is the comodification. We live in a society that is totally
:37:27. > :37:35.comodified. Also the clothing ranges. You are seeing, what you
:37:35. > :37:41.are seeing is a blurring of age distinctions, nos adulghts wearing
:37:41. > :37:44.-- adults wearing clothes that make them look older and young people
:37:44. > :37:47.wearing clothes that make them older.
:37:47. > :37:53.There is a story, to become ready for heaven you have to be like a
:37:53. > :37:57.child and you need a child - childhood is preparation for
:37:57. > :38:00.adulthood. The free spirit is a good example. If you remove the
:38:00. > :38:05.childhood bit and force young people to be adults, they are not
:38:05. > :38:09.ready to be adults and good adults and the adults we want them to be.
:38:09. > :38:13.We're losing something in our growing up, by not being children.
:38:13. > :38:17.Thank you very much indeed for that. APPLAUSE
:38:17. > :38:25.Thank you. If you have got something to say about that debate,
:38:25. > :38:33.log on to our website. Send Us your views about our last
:38:33. > :38:41.last big question, should it be legal to get high? We are in
:38:41. > :38:45.Salford on 27th January, Leicester on 3rd February and Cardiff on 10th.
:38:45. > :38:49.Here in Glasgow the local hospitals are seeing many, many more young
:38:49. > :38:58.people needing emergency treatment after taking so-called legal highs.
:38:58. > :39:04.They have reported a 358% rise over the past year. The trouble is, the
:39:04. > :39:13.users seldom know what was in the drug. Leaving doctors at a loss
:39:13. > :39:20.knowing how to treat them. Others say the drugs should be banned.
:39:20. > :39:25.Should it be legal to get high? Baroness Meacher, we have heard how
:39:25. > :39:28.dangerous the drugs are. People don't know know what is in them,
:39:28. > :39:32.how they are going to react and how they will react to prescribed drugs
:39:32. > :39:36.they maybe. For those who say ban them, stop them, what's your
:39:36. > :39:40.answer? Well for 40 years we have had a policy where if you take a
:39:40. > :39:45.drug, have a little bit of cannabis in your pocket, you are a criminal.
:39:45. > :39:50.OK, in that 40 years, we have had a a 20 fold increase in the use of
:39:50. > :39:54.cannabis. The people who device the policies believe that if you
:39:54. > :39:58.criminalise people, we will have a drug-free world and there will be
:39:58. > :40:05.no problem. OK, here we are 40 years on, 60 million ecstasy
:40:05. > :40:09.tablets were taken last year, bought from illegal suppliers. The
:40:09. > :40:14.policy is not working. That's the starting point. Legal highs have
:40:14. > :40:17.come on the market. One new high arrives in Britain every week,
:40:17. > :40:22.every six days actually, a new substance. The young people have no
:40:22. > :40:26.idea what's in the substances. They buy these things, how on the web,
:40:26. > :40:29.Chinese laboratories are producing them. They arrive on the door mat
:40:29. > :40:39.in the child's home. The child picks it up and goes off and takes
:40:39. > :40:39.
:40:39. > :40:44.it. High an e-mail from a guy of 32, he took ket mean for a little while.
:40:44. > :40:49.It is a tranquilizer? He has had his bladder removed and two kidney
:40:49. > :40:53.operations and many more operations. Some of these legal highs are
:40:53. > :40:59.dangerous and many people don't know know which one is dangerous
:40:59. > :41:03.and which one might be harmless. All we are suggesting as the all
:41:03. > :41:07.party Parliamentary group, we need clear information. We have a
:41:07. > :41:13.classification that says all these things, if they are imprisonable
:41:13. > :41:17.offences. Young people know it is it is rubbish. If you take heroine
:41:17. > :41:20.or crack cocaine, you are going to be in trouble. There are other
:41:20. > :41:23.things illegal, where you could take them, I would never advice it.
:41:23. > :41:32.I would never advice anyone to take a drug.
:41:32. > :41:36.Do you believe ecstasy is in that tablet? With cocaine and heroine.
:41:36. > :41:40.That's misleading young people. We need good information. Young people
:41:40. > :41:45.don't want to damage their bodies. If they had descent information
:41:45. > :41:51.from the Government, they would avoid the bad stuff including
:41:51. > :41:55.heroin. Glasgow Royal Infirmary. This needs
:41:55. > :41:59.to be regulated. They did this experiment in New Zealand and they
:41:59. > :42:03.came to the conclusion, the people who roe duced this -- produced this
:42:03. > :42:06.should be responsible for the safety safety just as in the
:42:06. > :42:11.regular pharmaceutical industry? believe it should be regulated.
:42:11. > :42:17.However, it can take up to ten years for a prescription drug to go
:42:17. > :42:21.through human trials. There is not that link to research, we have no
:42:22. > :42:24.evidence base and these drugs are being taken by individuals. We have
:42:24. > :42:27.to remember that there are individuals involved here, you know,
:42:27. > :42:31.we have got parents, relatives coming through. Some of these
:42:31. > :42:35.people are nearly dying from these chemicals because there is not the
:42:35. > :42:40.evidence to say they are safe. Baroness Meacher? A lot of these
:42:40. > :42:43.drugs have been researched for many years by the standard
:42:43. > :42:46.pharmaceutical companies and the Chinese plough through this
:42:46. > :42:50.information and fiddle around with them and put them on the market. I
:42:50. > :42:55.agree with you, we have got to be careful here and to do a really
:42:55. > :43:00.good job, research job, it takes 15 years, but what, if I may say so,
:43:00. > :43:03.there are, I am not suggesting that all legal highs should be be
:43:03. > :43:07.regulated. Not at all, I am suggesting a small number, maybe
:43:07. > :43:11.two or three, where there has has been a lot of research on these
:43:11. > :43:15.things, where we do know there is a limited harm. These things should
:43:15. > :43:23.be in my view, regulated so that the young people have very clear
:43:23. > :43:33.information on the package. These drugs are dangerous, like owe. --
:43:33. > :43:36.
:43:36. > :43:40.like Tabak ta like tabacco. You have identified the big problem.
:43:40. > :43:45.Do you agree with the logic? We are dealing with a huge amount of
:43:45. > :43:49.cheamicals here. -- chemicals here. We had a particular case, you are
:43:49. > :43:53.right that was researched in the 60s and it was found to be toxic.
:43:53. > :43:58.Suddenly, it was flooded on to the market and sold as ecstasy. Also
:43:58. > :44:02.people don't know what they are getting. They might have illegal
:44:02. > :44:05.drugs mixed in with legal highs and regulation would help to avoid that.
:44:05. > :44:10.But we have problems with prescription drugs being exploited
:44:10. > :44:14.as well. Even if you regulate these, you don't get rid of the problem.
:44:14. > :44:19.We need to look at the problem today. I lost my daughter three-
:44:19. > :44:22.and-a-half years ago to a legal high and then there were seven new
:44:22. > :44:28.substances on the market, but actually moving on to the end of
:44:28. > :44:33.2012, there were over 70 substances detected. We haven't got the
:44:33. > :44:37.faintest clue what's in these things. Our kids are out there
:44:37. > :44:41.playing Russian roulette with their lives. There is no education in it
:44:41. > :44:48.schools at the moment. Let's go to the politician. I will
:44:48. > :44:54.come back in a wee second. Ruth, it is legal, you know, if you are of
:44:54. > :44:57.an age to get, what's the word I can get used, trollied. Hammered.
:44:57. > :45:02.It is legal to get high. As a Conservative Party politician, you
:45:02. > :45:05.should be, you know, you should be bolstering people's freedoms and
:45:05. > :45:15.rights, that's the new Conservative Party, not the old-fashioned one!
:45:15. > :45:18.
:45:18. > :45:24.Why is it not legal to get high p You have been framing this debate
:45:24. > :45:27.purely in a public health message. Drugs is also to do with community
:45:27. > :45:34.safety and criminal justice. I represent Glasgow which has sued
:45:34. > :45:39.problems in some areas about drugs and the safety of citizens -- huge
:45:39. > :45:42.problems. Not just people who go to hospital but the people who live
:45:42. > :45:49.around those people and I don't think you can have a discussion
:45:49. > :45:53.about drugs that is purely based on public health, you have to look at
:45:53. > :45:59.community safety and criminal- justice as well. The right to get
:45:59. > :46:03.high? I think you are right to say it is not just about public health.
:46:03. > :46:07.We should be framing the discussion in relation to public health but
:46:07. > :46:11.the laws are not making the streets safe. I am working with young
:46:11. > :46:15.people in Edinburgh who are getting involved in criminal networks they
:46:15. > :46:19.would not be involved with if the drugs were regulated so they are
:46:19. > :46:25.damaging their health and getting involved with criminals. It seems
:46:25. > :46:28.bizarre to me that this seems to be a consensus that we accept that in
:46:28. > :46:32.alcohol policy there is a legitimate public health policy for
:46:32. > :46:36.government to intervene and regulate the market in alcohol and
:46:36. > :46:43.yet we decide for other drugs that we leave it open to criminals. That
:46:43. > :46:48.is just crazy. I just wanted to pick up on a very important point
:46:48. > :46:52.about young people getting involved with criminals. One of the aims of
:46:53. > :46:56.having a small number of substances regulated is to pull them away from
:46:56. > :47:00.drug dealers because one of the big things that is happening at the
:47:00. > :47:05.moment is the young person goes along for a little bit of weed and
:47:05. > :47:09.the drug dealer says, I have something much more exciting. It is
:47:09. > :47:15.probably heroin and crack cocaine. If we can get some safer things out
:47:15. > :47:19.of that and into chemists it would be much safer. I am meeting young
:47:19. > :47:23.people who are given drugs on nothing and it is a way to
:47:23. > :47:30.introduce them to stronger and more addictive and dangerous substances.
:47:30. > :47:36.Are want to hit this gentleman. am back indeed. -- I want to hear
:47:36. > :47:43.from this gentleman. Will you be selling some of this stuff in the
:47:43. > :47:50.future? That is another point. We are responsible for supervising the
:47:50. > :47:55.sale of staff with small amounts of codeine, normally for pain relief,
:47:55. > :48:02.and we already have a massive debate in pharmacy regarding trying
:48:02. > :48:06.to combat the issue of opiate addiction. Addiction to those drugs.
:48:06. > :48:12.Because although we sell them for legitimate reasons, like pain
:48:12. > :48:15.relief, sadly there has been cases where patients have purchased them
:48:15. > :48:19.systematically from a number of pharmacists and we are having a
:48:19. > :48:24.very big debate and discussion about how we can actually minimise
:48:24. > :48:30.this problem because it is a massive problem worldwide and as
:48:30. > :48:36.far as education is concerned, I agree, we need to enlighten young
:48:36. > :48:44.people. What is wrong with getting higher? A lot. As you just said at
:48:44. > :48:48.the start, the rise of 358 %, enormous, and you are seeing all
:48:48. > :48:54.sorts of problems kicking off... there anything wrong with getting
:48:54. > :48:58.high? Are absolutely not. I am a drugs work in the drugs charity and
:48:58. > :49:04.be primarily deal with cycle stimulant drugs. We see a lot of
:49:05. > :49:11.legal hives. 75% of our crisis intervention it is around alcohol
:49:11. > :49:17.and only 5% is around legal highs. Alcohol has been around for
:49:17. > :49:23.centuries. Legal highs on you. They have only been around a couple of
:49:23. > :49:27.years. -- legal highs are new. Ketamine is a prescription drug. I
:49:27. > :49:34.use it on patients in a controlled environment on a weekly basis for
:49:34. > :49:39.what it was intended for. It has been led to abuse. Codeine, another
:49:39. > :49:43.abuse of prescription drugs. If you regulate drugs, you do not take the
:49:43. > :49:47.problem a way, but I am all for regulating the chemicals to ensure
:49:47. > :49:51.their safety but ultimately we need to get the message out that people
:49:51. > :49:57.need to take responsibility for their actions.
:49:57. > :50:01.APPLAUSE. If they were regulated and there was an element of
:50:01. > :50:06.decriminalisation it would make your job a lot easier for us stop
:50:06. > :50:14.absolutely and we would welcome that. However, alcohol is the
:50:14. > :50:20.biggest problem we have got. The combination of alcohol and drugs.
:50:20. > :50:25.The problem about illegal drugs is the term. We hate it. -- legal
:50:25. > :50:31.drugs. Because they are called Legal there is the inference that
:50:31. > :50:36.they are Safe. Legal drugs have legal substances in them. It is
:50:36. > :50:42.like getting vodka with methylated spirits in them. It is not. It is
:50:42. > :50:46.going back. If we can tell young people and inform them, we do not
:50:46. > :50:50.want decriminalise large numbers of young people. That is not what this
:50:50. > :50:55.is about. They do not know what they are taking. The only people
:50:55. > :51:02.who know what they are taking up the evil people that peddle this
:51:02. > :51:08.misery. Which is worse for Public Order? Alcohol or drugs? Alcohol is
:51:08. > :51:17.worse. But this is a wider issue, it is committee safety, health,
:51:17. > :51:22.civil protection. -- community safety. If alcohol is the problem,
:51:22. > :51:26.a wire are you suggesting we do the same with drugs as with alcohol --
:51:26. > :51:32.why are you? What we have created is a context in which young people
:51:32. > :51:38.think that the best way of having a good time is to get hammered, with
:51:38. > :51:44.alcohol or drugs, and... When it were you last time it? Longer ago
:51:44. > :51:49.than I care to remember. The other thing is escapism, particularly
:51:49. > :51:53.from poverty. We need to do with the root issues that take people to
:51:53. > :51:57.the context where they are saying, I need to escape by taking these
:51:57. > :52:02.pills, rather than talking about the legislation because that would
:52:02. > :52:08.not sort it. We assume the legislation will sort it.
:52:08. > :52:11.difference with this, I agree that alcohol is a huge problem,
:52:12. > :52:17.conventional drugs are a huge problem, but legal highs are not
:52:17. > :52:24.what it says on the tin. We had been talking to 14-year-olds Bob le
:52:24. > :52:29.Brocq my daughter was a medical student, a student mental and an
:52:29. > :52:34.athlete. She had some alcohol at an awards dinner and her old boyfriend
:52:34. > :52:40.gave her half a dose of a legal high, it closed up her respiratory
:52:40. > :52:44.system and she died. It can happen to anybody's child. These chemicals
:52:44. > :52:51.can cause depression, psychosis, you can lose your bladder, damage
:52:51. > :52:56.your eyesight. It is life changing. In school, we get them to fill in
:52:56. > :53:01.questionnaires and say, what are legal highs? They say they are safe
:53:01. > :53:05.and their friends take them and it is fine. Then we should do my next
:53:05. > :53:08.film from our Foundation and then they fill in the final part of the
:53:08. > :53:13.questionnaire and they say they are angry and feel misled because they
:53:13. > :53:18.did not know they were taken a combination of toxic chemicals.
:53:18. > :53:24.Former heroin addict and you work with people with drug problems.
:53:24. > :53:27.What Baroness Meacher is suggesting, we did it work? I spent half my
:53:27. > :53:35.lifetime getting higher. I was a heroin and crack cocaine addict for
:53:35. > :53:39.a long time. I am absolutely baffled, baffled, why society today
:53:39. > :53:44.would push legal highs forward, encouraging children to use drugs
:53:44. > :53:50.that are dangerous. Although it says they are illegal, it doesn't
:53:50. > :53:55.mean they are safe at all. APPLAUSE. They are dangerous. We to
:53:55. > :54:04.minute. This lady has lost a child through this. How many people have
:54:04. > :54:12.to die before it becomes illegal? Make it safer then. There have been
:54:12. > :54:17.multiple deaths to a graduate from these chemicals. -- multiple deaths
:54:17. > :54:21.in Europe from these chemicals. think it is really important to
:54:22. > :54:27.recognise that some of these drugs are incredibly dangerous, as you
:54:27. > :54:34.say, but we have got to accept a lot of young people, a minority,
:54:34. > :54:40.but a lot, I going to experiment and take things. Many of them. They
:54:40. > :54:44.find the means. Their parents have got purses in their kitchens. What
:54:44. > :54:51.we have to do is to accept the reality, that a lot of young people
:54:51. > :54:57.will take things, or alcohol and other things. It was not accepted
:54:57. > :55:04.40 years ago and we failed. Hang on. A what message are we sending two
:55:04. > :55:09.young people? Are led Baroness Meacher finish at point. If we had
:55:09. > :55:13.the starting point of accepting the reality, then we have a clarity
:55:14. > :55:18.between the safer and the really dangerous, then we have very good
:55:18. > :55:21.and clear educational information that is accurate, at the moment
:55:21. > :55:25.government information is misleading and inaccurate, I don't
:55:25. > :55:33.think we will be sending the wrong message because the message would
:55:33. > :55:37.be, or risk, danger. We would know what was in it. Yes. Hang on. They
:55:37. > :55:43.would know what was in it. They would know what the side-effects
:55:43. > :55:51.were. Why put a box on the shelf in the first place? There is a bottle
:55:51. > :55:58.of whisky there. A couple of audience members, please. Good
:55:58. > :56:02.morning. Ruth Davidson referred to the public order effect of drugs. I
:56:02. > :56:06.don't know about her but I would much rather walk through a crowd on
:56:07. > :56:16.Friday night in Falkirk who have spent the evening smoking dope and
:56:17. > :56:19.
:56:19. > :56:22.who have just had to a bottle of Buckfast. I would feel a lot safe.
:56:22. > :56:28.I certainly would not have a black eye it is the person had been
:56:28. > :56:32.smoking marijuana at! -- if the person had not been smoking
:56:32. > :56:38.marijuana. If we had the boxes on the shelf and not being sold by the
:56:38. > :56:43.man who sells heroin, it would not lead on to the next thing. The onus
:56:43. > :56:46.must be on the dealer to prove they are safe for human consumption. We
:56:46. > :56:51.know they are selling them to kids and they are living footballer
:56:51. > :56:56.lifestyle as a result and that should not be allowed. The even if
:56:56. > :56:59.we do regulate drugs, it will be a small number of drugs that will be
:56:59. > :57:06.regulated and young people will still look at other drugs to get a
:57:06. > :57:12.hold of us. The police have powers to get rid of some drugs but others,
:57:12. > :57:16.legal highs, we have no powers. We can take alcohol and fireworks from
:57:16. > :57:24.people. Can we take these drugs from people that are killing them?
:57:24. > :57:31.No, we can't. I have come back to you! I have never spoken to royalty
:57:31. > :57:36.before, I am sorry, Baroness of. am not royalty! I totally disagree
:57:36. > :57:41.with you though. I think this is a false argument. We are not arguing
:57:41. > :57:45.against prevention and education. Effective education and prevention
:57:45. > :57:54.has to happen. We are saying the regulation at the moment is not
:57:54. > :57:59.working. Nobody would suggest that we allow these drugs supplies to do
:57:59. > :58:03.the same thing that the alcohol industry has been doing. They
:58:03. > :58:09.should not be able to advertise. The outlets should be strictly
:58:09. > :58:14.controlled. It is not the same thing. It would take years. We are
:58:14. > :58:20.looking at five years. We have to leave it there! Thank you very much
:58:20. > :58:27.for taking part. APPLAUSE. The debate continues on