:00:32. > :00:37.Good morning. Welcome to the Big Questions, live from North Pole.
:00:37. > :00:41.I'm Nicky Campbell. On Wednesday, Pope Benedict XVI conducted his
:00:41. > :00:45.last mass before he resigns his papacy at the end of the month. He
:00:45. > :00:50.urged believers to withstand secularisation, uphold traditional
:00:50. > :00:54.beliefs and work for a renewal of the Church. The first big question,
:00:54. > :00:58.is it too late to renew the Catholic Church? Lavinia Byrne, a
:00:58. > :01:03.former nun, says the church these to learn how to work with modern
:01:03. > :01:07.attitudes to women, homosexuality, contraception and married priests
:01:07. > :01:12.to survive. Catholic convert Tim Stanley says the great strength of
:01:12. > :01:16.the Church is it cannot and should not change. The Bible says the Ten
:01:16. > :01:21.Commandments were set in stone by a God and brought down the mountain
:01:21. > :01:25.3,000 years ago. It is hardly surprising that some people think
:01:25. > :01:30.it is time for a rewrite. The second big question is do we need
:01:30. > :01:33.10 new Commandments? Alain to Botton has come up with his own
:01:33. > :01:38.manual of the qualities we should strive for. David Herbert says the
:01:38. > :01:48.original list tells you God's view on things and is the best way to
:01:48. > :01:51.
:01:51. > :01:55.run society. Welcome to the Big As Pope Benedict enters his last
:01:55. > :02:00.days of office, contenders must be taking stock of the state of the
:02:00. > :02:04.Catholic Church. In Africa and Latin America, the faithful have
:02:04. > :02:09.multiplied, but in Europe and North America changing attitudes and the
:02:09. > :02:13.scandals of child abuse have seen church attendances decline. There
:02:13. > :02:23.are a dearth of candidates for the priesthood. Is it too late to renew
:02:23. > :02:25.
:02:25. > :02:30.the Catholic Church? Pope Benedict XVI, you have written about the
:02:30. > :02:34.issue of child abuse, he changed the process, he centralised it so
:02:34. > :02:41.it was not up to individual diocese, which was clearly a step forward,
:02:41. > :02:47.and he apologised. What needs to happen? It is important to
:02:47. > :02:55.acknowledge he has not apologised. He said he was sorry for the
:02:55. > :02:59.suffering. What he has never done is and what they continue to do is
:02:59. > :03:05.continue to cover up the systemic abuse across the Catholic Church,
:03:05. > :03:09.driven by attitudes directly from the Vatican. Pope Benedict XVI
:03:09. > :03:16.oversaw that process for many decades. From 2001, he centralised
:03:16. > :03:20.the process, but right up until he became Pope, he denied this was a
:03:20. > :03:26.significant problem. He is on record as saying they were a media
:03:26. > :03:29.conspiracy, evidence of the corruption of Western society
:03:29. > :03:34.infecting the priesthood. He repeatedly lied about the facts and
:03:34. > :03:39.nature of child sexual abuse in the Roman Catholic Church. He like?
:03:39. > :03:43.does not see it as lying, because at the basic level there is a
:03:43. > :03:48.distorted understanding of truth by the Vatican. They believe truth is
:03:48. > :03:52.what it needs it to be. It is the source of absolute truth, on so
:03:52. > :03:56.many issues. That is why the child abuse scandals are symptomatic of
:03:56. > :04:00.one of the great difficulties for the Catholic Church. It is not
:04:01. > :04:04.whether it can renew itself, I think Pope Benedict would say it is
:04:04. > :04:09.going through renewal and it is going back to church values, and he
:04:09. > :04:14.is getting that. It is becoming incredibly irrelevant to most
:04:14. > :04:20.people's lives. Illyria to do with women, sexuality, gender, a human
:04:20. > :04:28.love, the teachings are largely irrelevant for most people. I saw
:04:28. > :04:32.Cardinal last week saying 2 billion Catholics were holding their breath.
:04:32. > :04:40.They probably said that was interesting, but actually, in most
:04:40. > :04:45.Catholic lives, and most Catholics, certainly a significant number, are
:04:45. > :04:53.culturally Catholic rather than theologically Catholic. It is
:04:53. > :04:58.cultural Catholicism. There are so many issues here. Is this a case of
:04:58. > :05:04.the Catholic Church drifting away from the modern world? With the
:05:04. > :05:11.issue of child abuse, that has been an awful thing in the light of the
:05:11. > :05:15.chaplet church -- Catholic Church, and probably in society. There is
:05:15. > :05:19.something of a distortion in the presentation. We know before he
:05:19. > :05:24.came Pope -- before he became Pope, he referred to the filth in the
:05:24. > :05:29.church. It is presumed he was referring to child abuse. The fact
:05:29. > :05:32.is, as Amnesty International's report said, there has been good
:05:32. > :05:38.legislation in the church, but at a local level they were not dealt
:05:38. > :05:41.with. It was not card and all Rats singer that was dealing with them.
:05:41. > :05:51.-- it was not Pope Benedict XVI that was dealing with them. That is
:05:51. > :05:53.not true. You cannot on one and say he centralised the process and
:05:54. > :05:58.required from 2001 every single case had to come to his desk and
:05:58. > :06:04.then said none of them -- and then say none of them came to his desk.
:06:04. > :06:08.I meant specifically from Ireland. Many cases came to him from before
:06:08. > :06:12.2005. You are focusing on his department, there was another
:06:12. > :06:15.department that oversaw that process and it had regular reports.
:06:15. > :06:21.When you speak about church legislation, the first legislation
:06:21. > :06:28.I have seen it dealt with the issue of paedophilia was from 346 AD.
:06:28. > :06:32.Church history is littered with specific legislation and scandals
:06:32. > :06:38.that emerged where the Catholic Church tried to bring in
:06:38. > :06:43.legislation to address this issue. Explain to me why from 1990 onwards,
:06:43. > :06:48.the former Port said they had no understanding of this issue.
:06:48. > :06:53.not for a moment trying to any weight less in what has happened,
:06:53. > :06:58.and the legislation since then reflect society more generally.
:06:58. > :07:04.What is true about Pope Benedict XVI, and that is why I focused on
:07:04. > :07:10.him because he began with him, as society became more aware of this
:07:10. > :07:15.issue... Two millennia! You say that but we were surprised by Jimmy
:07:15. > :07:21.Savile. We are only just discovering the big issue. He was
:07:21. > :07:28.the one dealing with it. What needs to happen, asked Tim Stanley, going
:07:28. > :07:33.forward? It is symptomatic of a lack of understanding of the modern
:07:33. > :07:37.world? Absolutely not, and you must not confuse the issue of child
:07:37. > :07:40.abuse with the question of Catholic doctrine. If the priests who abused
:07:40. > :07:50.children had obeyed Catholic doctrine they would never have done
:07:50. > :07:53.it. What about the Vatican? Because they would not they were going to
:07:53. > :07:57.help? They would not they were going to hell and would be
:07:57. > :08:02.compelled to not do it. What about the bishops and cardinals who
:08:02. > :08:06.covered it up? Your describing the sin of those bishops, which is a
:08:06. > :08:10.crime and a saying in covering up abuse, and secondly institutional
:08:10. > :08:14.failure. When we speak about renewal, I absolutely agree there
:08:14. > :08:18.is no need to renew the church, its mission, vision, the way it runs
:08:18. > :08:22.itself, but you are confusing the question of those crimes committed
:08:22. > :08:28.and whether or not the Church needs a wholesale rewriting of its
:08:28. > :08:31.doctrine. Those are two different things. Not only do we not need the
:08:31. > :08:36.rewriting of doctrine, we cannot, because Catholic authority is
:08:36. > :08:39.rooted in the historic integrity. My basic point is it must be rooted
:08:39. > :08:43.in truth and the Vatican has displayed an absolute contempt for
:08:43. > :08:51.truth. When it has done that, it has broken from Catholic teaching
:08:51. > :08:57.and it has betrayed itself. Let's concentrate on some Catholic
:08:57. > :09:02.teaching, and we have plenty to discuss. Lavinia Byrne, when this
:09:02. > :09:12.particular pope said the ordination of women priests was a great
:09:12. > :09:12.
:09:12. > :09:17.crime... Yes, crime. Is that not bizarre? You are former nun. Yes. I
:09:17. > :09:21.have been quite ardently campaigning for the ordination of
:09:21. > :09:25.women in the Roman Catholic Church. I've also been seeking out a role
:09:25. > :09:35.for women in the Catholic Church. When he said that, how did you
:09:35. > :09:36.
:09:36. > :09:43.feel? That makes me a criminal, so why not thrilled, frankly. If you
:09:43. > :09:52.equate it with other great crimes like child abuse... He did. What I
:09:52. > :09:58.would like to leapfrog to is the idea of being accountable for once
:09:58. > :10:02.since -- one's sins. There have been priests and bishops who failed
:10:02. > :10:07.in the Church's teaching. How do you get more accountability into
:10:07. > :10:14.the system? That is what I would like us to look at, because that
:10:14. > :10:20.covers the whole basis, the whole broad basis and spectre of what the
:10:20. > :10:23.Church teaches and how lay Catholic like myself respond to it.
:10:23. > :10:31.cannot get more accountability into the system in the Catholic Church
:10:31. > :10:37.because it relies essentially on authority. The principle of the
:10:37. > :10:42.Catholic Church is you do not, increasingly, in the 21st century,
:10:42. > :10:52.we want to ask the question why, Ohio, why do you believe this? In
:10:52. > :10:52.
:10:52. > :10:55.the Catholic Church, that question is irrelevant. -- how? You cannot
:10:56. > :11:03.accept the idea of the fallibility of the Pope because the view of the
:11:03. > :11:08.Catholic Church is we do not judge, we do not arrive at conclusions.
:11:08. > :11:12.That is why the whole issue of child abuse is intimately tied up
:11:12. > :11:16.with the Catholic Church, it is not stray individuals going off and
:11:16. > :11:21.doing dreadful things war hiding dreadful things, it is because the
:11:21. > :11:26.Catholic Church is a lot they terrain -- there is an organisation
:11:26. > :11:30.where the priest can oppose -- impose his authority on people,
:11:30. > :11:34.firstly, it was possible for priests to abuse children, and
:11:34. > :11:43.secondly, it was possible for the Church is we did under the carpet
:11:43. > :11:49.and keep it from public view for years and years. That is because of
:11:49. > :11:56.the Catholic doctrine. The BBC is not Catholic and it had abuse... I
:11:56. > :12:03.want to be careful. That has no valid relevance. There is a problem
:12:03. > :12:06.in recruitment with priests at the moment. You are from an
:12:06. > :12:13.organisation that holds silent prayer vigils outside abortion
:12:14. > :12:19.clinics. The organisation does not but I am part of a movement that
:12:19. > :12:29.does that. Why do you believe that single seller that male priests are
:12:29. > :12:29.
:12:29. > :12:35.an important standard to uphold? -- celibate. Basically, the Church
:12:35. > :12:44.asks its priests, it picks them from those who have already decided
:12:44. > :12:50.to the seller that -- be celibate. That is the practice of not getting
:12:50. > :12:57.married, and the Church teaches us that sex outside marriage is not
:12:57. > :13:05.allowed. It selects priests from that. Why is it better to be like
:13:05. > :13:14.that if you are a priest? husband was formerly an Anglican
:13:14. > :13:20.vicar. When you have priestly ministry and a family, you have a
:13:20. > :13:28.responsibility not only to your parish but your family. Priestly
:13:28. > :13:32.celibacy, please give everything to his parish. Your husband has been
:13:32. > :13:38.allowed to be a priest, is he not going to be as good a priest as a
:13:38. > :13:42.priest who has taken celibacy? will be a marvellous priest. But he
:13:42. > :13:49.is married. The reason the Catholic Church are allowing converts to
:13:49. > :13:54.become priests is because they were brought up in the tradition that
:13:54. > :14:03.they would be able to do that. They had Jule vocation. When they
:14:03. > :14:07.convert... When they can work, an exception is granted on a one-off
:14:07. > :14:11.basis for those individuals already married. But he will have a unique
:14:11. > :14:21.perspective on the trials and tribulations and challenges of
:14:21. > :14:25.family life. That is certainly... That is certainly true, but also...
:14:25. > :14:30.He is a value added priest. could say that, but there are also
:14:30. > :14:35.things, when somebody comes knocking on your door at 3am, you
:14:35. > :14:44.cannot say you are changing the nappy, my wife does not want you
:14:44. > :14:54.here, unique to... By admitting these former Anglicans, you are
:14:54. > :14:58.
:14:58. > :15:06.saying celibacy is not a It seems to me that the metaphor
:15:06. > :15:11.has broken down. It has been about recognising a ministry which has
:15:11. > :15:16.already happened in the Church of England. Bending the rules, some
:15:16. > :15:22.would say. No,, it is not, because this is granted on an individual
:15:22. > :15:29.basis, due to the generosity of the Holy Father. Is your husband going
:15:29. > :15:33.to be a 100% priest? God winning. The Church recognises that he has
:15:33. > :15:37.his vocation to marriage, to be, and he also has his priestly
:15:37. > :15:43.vocation. It is a wonderful accommodation. Exactly, it is not
:15:43. > :15:45.the norm, but the priests are asked to give so much to their parish.
:15:46. > :15:55.The issue of contraception is another one which I believe we need
:15:55. > :16:03.to address. The Pope has said, contraception is intrinsically evil.
:16:03. > :16:11.Now, we know that in the West, according to surveys, 69% of
:16:11. > :16:18.Catholics practise contraception. It has been said that women have
:16:18. > :16:24.control of contraception, they are economically empowered, so, is this
:16:24. > :16:29.not horrendously outmoded? Absolutely not. The Church's
:16:29. > :16:33.message for women and contraception is truly radical. Is it? Truly
:16:33. > :16:39.radical. Look at what contraception does, particularly hormonal
:16:39. > :16:46.contraception. A woman is asked to chemically and hormonally batter
:16:46. > :16:53.her natural fertility into submission. The woman is the one
:16:53. > :16:57.who... Miriam has joined us! woman is the one who is asked to
:16:57. > :17:02.take charge of her own fertility. So, when contraception does not
:17:02. > :17:12.work, then the burden falls on the woman to either be a single mother,
:17:12. > :17:13.
:17:13. > :17:17.or... Does the burden not then fall on the woman, if she is not allowed
:17:17. > :17:23.to use contraception, and she has an unwanted pregnancy, is there not
:17:23. > :17:29.then a burden on the woman? Church teaches that it is a joint
:17:29. > :17:35.responsibility. It is not for the woman, it is for a husband and wife.
:17:35. > :17:40.They monitor her natural fertility together. Every time they decide
:17:40. > :17:46.that they are going to be sexually intimate, they are open to the fact
:17:46. > :17:52.that a baby may result. It does not have to. At the most basic level,
:17:52. > :17:56.what a really struggle with is that we have an elderly, celibate man,
:17:56. > :18:06.living in Rome, who sees himself as the source of absolute truth,
:18:06. > :18:07.
:18:07. > :18:12.telling married couples when and how they can have sex. Jesus Christ
:18:13. > :18:21.did not have sexual partners, does he have moral authority? We do not
:18:21. > :18:29.know that. Maybe you are the source of absolute truth as well.
:18:29. > :18:34.source is the church, not me. the other day, I read a submission
:18:34. > :18:39.from the Holy See, which again repeated that married couples could
:18:39. > :18:42.only experience marital love for the purpose of procreation, at
:18:42. > :18:47.times when they are naturally fertile, and at other times, they
:18:47. > :18:52.should abstain from sex. How in heaven's name can anybody question
:18:52. > :18:55.whether or not the Catholic Church is relevant, when you have somebody
:18:55. > :18:59.sitting there telling married couples when and how that can make
:18:59. > :19:04.love. This is about holding up an ideal. The very fact that so many
:19:04. > :19:10.people ignore that ideal is a reflection... By which to judge
:19:10. > :19:14.yourself? I hope we are not just going to discuss sex, because the
:19:14. > :19:17.judge also teaches that war is wrong. By the way, people will
:19:17. > :19:21.commit adultery, they will do things wrong, they will go to
:19:21. > :19:25.confession, they will be forgiven, and they will achieve grace. The
:19:25. > :19:30.Church is not some kind of Great dictator, with everybody cowardly a
:19:30. > :19:40.billion. This is an interesting point, if you will allow me to talk
:19:40. > :19:42.
:19:42. > :19:46.about divorce as well. For example, if you are divorced, even if you
:19:46. > :19:52.are the innocent party, whatever that means, you're not then allowed
:19:52. > :19:57.to take communion. So, the basic... That is misunderstood. Whatever
:19:57. > :20:03.happens, when a couple gets divorced, you are allowed to
:20:03. > :20:07.continue to take communion. But if you remarry? If you do so without
:20:07. > :20:12.the Church's consent, then you're not allowed to take communion, but
:20:12. > :20:17.the Church does have a process... Only if your previous marriage has
:20:17. > :20:21.been annulled? That's right. But that does not just apply to
:20:22. > :20:26.divorced or re married couples, it also applies to couples who are
:20:26. > :20:31.cohabiting. Anybody in a state of serious sin cannot take communion.
:20:31. > :20:37.Does that mean they cannot go to heaven? No, because you never write
:20:37. > :20:40.anybody off, because they can be forgiven. Our Church has been
:20:40. > :20:44.around for 2000 years, and we have come up with very complex ways of
:20:44. > :20:49.dealing with things. We have something called an Dormand. If you
:20:49. > :20:59.marry and it turns out later that that marriage was done in bad faith,
:20:59. > :21:01.
:21:01. > :21:06.that would be a case for it to be annulled. -- annulment. The idea
:21:06. > :21:13.that the Church does not try to recognise -- reconcile its ideals
:21:13. > :21:21.with the reality of life is just not true. It is a bit vindictive,
:21:21. > :21:26.isn't it? There are many times I am walking with people, having to cope
:21:26. > :21:30.with the awfulness of marriage breakdown, and then sometimes, one
:21:30. > :21:35.partner moves on to someone else. The Church walks with those
:21:35. > :21:40.individuals. We want people to grow in their humanity, and in their
:21:40. > :21:44.faith, but also being a Catholic, although receiving communion is a
:21:44. > :21:49.wonderful thing, there are many other ways in which God blesses us
:21:49. > :21:53.in our lives. The broad issue is that the Church should support
:21:53. > :22:03.people in whatever situation they find themselves in. Which is what
:22:03. > :22:05.
:22:05. > :22:09.is happening in every day parish life. Sometimes, in quite violent
:22:09. > :22:14.and self-denying ways, people are being asked to limit their self-
:22:14. > :22:19.expression, particularly for people who were gay. What do you mean?
:22:19. > :22:28.example, if we focus in on the question of her maturity, and we
:22:28. > :22:32.take church teaching to its limit, homosexuals, in order to be
:22:32. > :22:40.acceptable to the church, must be entirely celibate. They cannot
:22:40. > :22:48.marry, because the Church does not recognise their relationship. So,
:22:48. > :22:52.for a gay person to live their life is sinful in the eyes of the Church.
:22:52. > :22:56.They are required, in order to be good Catholics, to deny their
:22:56. > :23:01.sexuality, not to practise their sexuality, not to live in love.
:23:01. > :23:05.That is an incredible restriction to place. Do you honestly think
:23:05. > :23:09.they do not? Do you honestly think the Catholic Church is full of
:23:09. > :23:13.people who are totally a press themselves? If you want to ask the
:23:13. > :23:21.question, does the Catholic Church need to be renewed? It needs to be
:23:21. > :23:28.relevant to people's lives. Most people, thankfully, these days, can
:23:28. > :23:36.recognise that love matters. idea of relevance seems to entirely
:23:36. > :23:42.go around sex. I believe the mass centre has been moved, it has not
:23:42. > :23:46.been entirely stopped. By the way, there is nothing wrong... There is
:23:46. > :23:55.nothing wrong with a mass for gay people. The catechism recognises
:23:55. > :24:01.gay people, it says they have personhood and they must be treated
:24:01. > :24:05.with dignity and respect. Listening to this, I am really glad that I am
:24:05. > :24:10.Jewish. But then again, it is all our fault, because we started the
:24:10. > :24:13.law, before the judge took over! On that specific point this morning,
:24:13. > :24:17.on the news this morning they said that at centre was closed down
:24:18. > :24:22.because it was felt that it was contrary to the church's teachings.
:24:22. > :24:27.No, it has been moved. But it was contrary to church teaching, let's
:24:27. > :24:32.be clear and honest and open about this. The reason why the Soho
:24:32. > :24:36.masses have been moved to another centre is because we understand
:24:36. > :24:41.that gay Catholics, of course, need support and fellowship, like we all
:24:41. > :24:45.do. But what seemed to be happening at some of those masses were that
:24:45. > :24:55.they were a direct contravention of Church teaching.. What was
:24:55. > :24:56.
:24:56. > :25:02.happening? Basically, people were going up to the pulpit and bidding
:25:02. > :25:08.prayers, all about celebrating the fact that people were in gay sexual
:25:08. > :25:11.relationships. Loving relationships... Which is contrary
:25:11. > :25:16.to church teaching. It was causing so much confusion, because the
:25:16. > :25:21.Church teaching is very clear. And yet on a local level, there seemed
:25:21. > :25:28.to be people who were saying, we're in a loving, sexual relationship,
:25:28. > :25:34.and the Church needs to bless us. That is why it had to be stopped.
:25:34. > :25:38.The Church does not teach that gay love is wrong, in the sense of love
:25:38. > :25:45.as their relationship and fellowship, that is not wrong. It
:25:45. > :25:49.is the sexual act that is wrong. Gay fellowship is fine. Exactly.
:25:49. > :25:54.Cohabiting for homosexuals is not a problem, same-sex attraction is not
:25:54. > :26:00.a problem, it is the action itself. But the fact that the Church asks
:26:00. > :26:10.homosexuals to be celibate, it is the same as all people.
:26:10. > :26:17.expression of love is wrong. What you're saying is that the Church's
:26:17. > :26:21.teaching has nothing to do with love, it is all about sex. Which is,
:26:21. > :26:31.I think, at a heart of what an awful lot of us have against the
:26:31. > :26:36.Catholic Church's teaching, that it is all about sex. How can you then
:26:36. > :26:46.say that an organisation can be relevant in the 21st century, which
:26:46. > :26:50.states that all the most important decisions...? Those decisions can
:26:50. > :26:56.only be taken by men, that all the important things done in the Church
:26:56. > :27:01.can only be done by men? Why do you care? I do not understand, if you
:27:01. > :27:05.disagree with they philosophy and the theology, do not join charge.
:27:05. > :27:11.There is a very straightforward answer to that. I care because I
:27:11. > :27:17.come from a society where the Church has brutalised an entire
:27:17. > :27:20.society. I care because today, the Holy See in the United Nations is
:27:20. > :27:25.arguing against advances in international law which would
:27:25. > :27:29.protect people on the basis of their gender identity. I care
:27:29. > :27:33.because an institution which should stand for truth and justice is
:27:33. > :27:36.blind to concepts of truth and justice, for some people.
:27:36. > :27:41.largest provider in the world of care for people dying with Aids is
:27:41. > :27:45.the Catholic Church. Yes, and it provides for about 60 million
:27:45. > :27:53.children worldwide, and is in default of its obligations under
:27:53. > :27:57.international law. That is not true. It is absolutely true. I would like
:27:57. > :28:04.to make one more point - you are both talking about the church and
:28:04. > :28:09.sex. We have talked about gender, women, lots of things. There is a
:28:09. > :28:12.lot more to the church than that. But our modern society is so
:28:12. > :28:21.obsessed with sex, we can only seem to want to get fulfilment through
:28:21. > :28:31.sex. The problem is, the Church has an attitude towards sex that it
:28:31. > :28:35.cannot recognise... Everybody is rebelling against that... People
:28:35. > :28:39.are cross with the Catholic Church, because the Catholic Church will
:28:39. > :28:43.not give a licence to be a sexual libertine. And so, people are
:28:43. > :28:47.defining themselves purely in terms of, I cannot be a full human being
:28:47. > :28:52.unless I can go and have sex with whomever I want, whenever I want.
:28:52. > :28:57.There is more to as all as human beings, far more. When it comes to
:28:58. > :29:01.the issue of, for example, going back to contraception, people just
:29:01. > :29:05.ignoring the teachings of the Church, because they have developed
:29:05. > :29:09.their own moral code, which they feel is more responsible, and may
:29:09. > :29:16.feel is superior to the one coming out of the Vatican City - but how
:29:16. > :29:19.is that sustainable in the long term? Because that has happened
:29:20. > :29:24.throughout the centuries, that is how the Church works. People who do
:29:24. > :29:27.not have faith presume that churches are some kind of scary
:29:27. > :29:33.cult, where you sign up, have to shave of your hair and never have
:29:33. > :29:37.sex. They do exist. The reality is that for many people, the Church is
:29:37. > :29:40.actually just something you go to on a Sunday, something which
:29:40. > :29:46.provides stability, and the fact that the teaching does not change
:29:46. > :29:50.is a very emotionally attractive been for many people. That's what
:29:50. > :29:53.provides a spiritual centrality to their lives. We hope, those of us
:29:53. > :29:56.doesn't really committed and faithful, that as they grow, they
:29:56. > :30:01.go to confession, they say the rosary and eventually they
:30:01. > :30:04.reconcile themselves to the teachings. But the reality is
:30:04. > :30:14.different for everybody, and most importantly, it brings people
:30:14. > :30:19.
:30:19. > :30:25.I think the debate around the revival of the Church is really
:30:25. > :30:29.interesting. We have got the Christian Nade Catholic community
:30:29. > :30:34.to thank for all the modern developments we have in society,
:30:34. > :30:40.the fact we have a liberal society. -- the Christian and the Catholic
:30:40. > :30:50.community. It has come from people the hailed from a Catholic
:30:50. > :30:50.
:30:50. > :30:54.background. We have a lot to thank for current society. I think the
:30:54. > :31:00.debate within these communities are very advanced, and because society
:31:00. > :31:05.is advanced, if you look at other religions, speaking about gay
:31:05. > :31:08.marriage, they are not even at this stage where they can come out with
:31:08. > :31:16.the these issues, so I think it is really constructive that we can
:31:16. > :31:20.have this debate. Europe was not able to have these discussions
:31:20. > :31:23.either until the Reformation, after the Reformation, that was the time
:31:23. > :31:28.we were really able to think about other kinds of philosophy because
:31:28. > :31:33.it was dominated by one. That was when we got the Enlightenment,
:31:33. > :31:37.scientific thinking, and people rediscovered it. It involved a lot
:31:37. > :31:42.of religious tyranny, and you would not want to live in it. It was
:31:42. > :31:45.absolutely awful, but it freed up intellectual progress and it meant
:31:45. > :31:52.people were allowed to think things that they before were not allowed
:31:52. > :32:01.to contemplate. What should the next pope, he is more than likely
:32:01. > :32:09.going to be a traditionalist, what would you like to see him do?
:32:09. > :32:15.indeed. One thing we know is it will not be a woman. I would like
:32:15. > :32:22.to address one question. If the Church does not have people like me
:32:22. > :32:30.it will become monochrome and pure, and I am terrified of that. I think
:32:30. > :32:37.that a church that embraces people and welcomes and is very happy to
:32:37. > :32:44.have people whose opinions are going different directions but who
:32:44. > :32:51.are loyal and to practise and to believe, with Cardinal Newman, that
:32:51. > :32:59.to live is to change, and to be perfect is to have changed often.
:32:59. > :33:02.The Catholic Church has to change. Last word, Father? The next pope
:33:02. > :33:08.will be someone who carries on doing what the Church has been
:33:08. > :33:14.doing for 2000 years, trying its best to teach what is true and good.
:33:14. > :33:19.How we do that will change as the years go by. 1.2 billion people, we
:33:19. > :33:23.are full women and men, including myself, who fall in Mary different
:33:23. > :33:31.ways. What we're trying to do is teach that that is true and good
:33:31. > :33:37.and beautiful. -- who fall in many different ways. We have never been
:33:37. > :33:42.so many different people from different backgrounds and that is
:33:43. > :33:52.the beauty of the Church. Fine- tuned a -- thank you very much. You
:33:52. > :33:58.can join that debate by logging You can also follow us on Twitter.
:33:58. > :34:01.You can send our views about the next big question. Do we need 10
:34:01. > :34:08.new Commandments? If you would like to be in the audience at a future
:34:08. > :34:18.show you can e-mail us. We will be in Southampton next Sunday. We will
:34:18. > :34:20.
:34:20. > :34:24.be in St Albans on March 3rd and Murder, adultery, stealing, bearing
:34:24. > :34:28.false witness and comforting are clearly a lot in the Ten
:34:28. > :34:32.Commandments. Cruelty to children, up damaging the environment,
:34:32. > :34:40.harming God's other creatures, not to mention. Do we need new
:34:40. > :34:46.Commandments? David Kirk, you think absolutely not. The first thing to
:34:46. > :34:53.say is they need to be rescued from caricatures. -- David Herbert. The
:34:53. > :34:59.prevailing view in society is we have this God who is puritan, the
:34:59. > :35:07.suspicion that someone is enjoying themselves. The prevailing view
:35:08. > :35:14.about the Ten Commandments is the Severe a God has been given these...
:35:14. > :35:17.Why is there nothing on child abuse, equality, races and? It is all
:35:17. > :35:25.aimed at people with servants and slaves, people with staff. Do not
:35:25. > :35:31.covet your neighbour's servant or wife. Let's look at that one
:35:31. > :35:36.particularly. Church officials have done a great job of getting under
:35:36. > :35:42.the skin of the Commandments. In a consumer society, the last one,
:35:42. > :35:46.where people want the next big TV, better job, the last one is about
:35:46. > :35:50.learning to be content, and we have so much to learn about being
:35:50. > :35:54.content with what you have, rather than being jealous and driven for
:35:54. > :36:00.what your neighbour has. It was clearly written in a patriarchal
:36:01. > :36:05.society, otherwise it would include women as well post-bop it is
:36:05. > :36:09.putting women in a list. You are missing the point. Understandably,
:36:09. > :36:13.men were in power. Things have changed. The heart of the
:36:14. > :36:21.commandment is to learn contentment. That is a lesson that is so
:36:21. > :36:25.relevant to society. You shall not make for yourself a card image of
:36:25. > :36:29.anything that his head in -- anything that is in heaven above.
:36:29. > :36:34.Is that saying there should be know representational art? That is about
:36:34. > :36:40.a detachment from reality. It is about not using another God, not
:36:40. > :36:46.making idols, it is God saying this is reality, and I come from any the
:36:46. > :36:53.his background. It is saying you are detached from reality. -- I
:36:54. > :37:00.come from a godless background. Do you can see that people become
:37:00. > :37:06.dislocated from God, society begins to factor as people choose other
:37:06. > :37:13.things. -- society falls apart. you say it is still completely
:37:13. > :37:16.relevant. You just need to get under the skin of them. I think it
:37:16. > :37:23.is about interpretation and that is a fascinating interpretation, but
:37:23. > :37:30.the reality must be accepted that these are a product of their time.
:37:30. > :37:34.Sorry to jump in... I actually think context is key when we
:37:34. > :37:42.understand the Ten Commandments. They were given just after the Lord
:37:42. > :37:49.had rescued his people. He rescued his people, he has this embryonic
:37:49. > :37:55.collection of people, nomadic, not only did he rescue them out of love,
:37:55. > :38:03.he has given them a vocation. I know the rabbi would agree with
:38:03. > :38:06.this but liberal Judaism says this is a mandate for the nations. The
:38:07. > :38:13.Ten Commandments are given to these people with a vocation to take it
:38:13. > :38:18.into the world. What a responsibility that is. The I think
:38:18. > :38:23.historical context is important here. The Ten Commandments happen
:38:23. > :38:30.to be the first 10 is that -- the first 10 in a list of quite a lot.
:38:30. > :38:34.If you look at them, they're not actually the most important 10.
:38:34. > :38:40.They clearly reflect a patriarchal society with an enormous amount of
:38:40. > :38:43.superstition and fear relating to the God they believed was
:38:43. > :38:49.worshipped at that time. The third commandment, the second in
:38:49. > :38:52.Christian, not to take over lord mac's name in vain, is a specific
:38:52. > :38:56.instruction that would have been clearly understood. There was a
:38:57. > :39:03.particular name given to God that was only a net -- only allowed to
:39:03. > :39:06.be pronounced by the high priest. As soon as he uttered it, everybody
:39:06. > :39:11.outside block their ears to stop them hearing, because they believed
:39:11. > :39:16.it would cause a catastrophe. That is what that means. I do not agree
:39:16. > :39:25.with that. It is interpretation, but historically, that is the
:39:25. > :39:29.reality. Worship me because I am a jealous God, wishing iniquity onto
:39:29. > :39:36.the third and 4th generations of those who hate me. That is about
:39:36. > :39:40.making idols. Visiting the iniquity of the fathers on to the children
:39:40. > :39:49.of the third and 4th generations, what medieval claptrap is this?
:39:49. > :39:55.That is nasty. Not even medieval. Of the Ten Commandments, that is
:39:55. > :40:04.the part I struggle with. I wonder if we see that in society where
:40:04. > :40:12.people turn away from God, somebody idolises their career, the third
:40:12. > :40:17.and 4th generation would have been a household, and extended household,
:40:17. > :40:24.if you are a man who puts his career before God, in that family,
:40:24. > :40:30.the damage that has cost, I wonder if it is about God's restraining
:40:30. > :40:36.grace, the family fractures, people repeat problems, gambling, the
:40:36. > :40:39.might love gambling... It would be an amazing thing for these rules to
:40:39. > :40:44.survive for as long as they have if they have not been adaptable too
:40:44. > :40:48.many contexts. I think we can draw meanings and infer all sorts of
:40:48. > :40:53.things that certainly were not there in the beginning, and perhaps
:40:53. > :41:03.the Rabbi can confirm, probably the making of idols referred to other
:41:03. > :41:06.
:41:06. > :41:10.Gods. Really it is saying do not bring in other Gods. What about the
:41:10. > :41:15.generations of those who hate me? It is not pleasant. It is not
:41:15. > :41:22.pleasant, and Richard Dawkins does a very good summary of the Old
:41:22. > :41:28.Testament job with about 5,000 adjectives that her not pleasant.
:41:28. > :41:33.It is probably true. The Old Testament God was a military and
:41:33. > :41:43.social judge of your system. That really misrepresents the God of the
:41:43. > :41:44.
:41:44. > :41:48.Bible. He is a rescuing God. He rescues people again in Christ.
:41:48. > :41:55.do we need something you? Many people who will be watching will be
:41:55. > :41:58.non-believers. The question is, what are we supposed to do? If you
:41:58. > :42:03.say to your friends you want to become more successful, richer,
:42:03. > :42:07.more popular. That is absolutely fine. If you say your friends you
:42:07. > :42:11.want to be a better person, that would sound totally bizarre. The
:42:11. > :42:15.project or becoming good, working on your character, has slipped off
:42:15. > :42:21.the radar in the secular world. I think that religions, for all their
:42:21. > :42:24.problems, ultimately contain some fascinating, complex, beautiful
:42:24. > :42:28.pieces that do not deserve to be attended to merely by those who
:42:28. > :42:33.believe in them. They are for everybody, not least non-believers.
:42:33. > :42:36.One of those projects is the project of becoming good. I do not
:42:36. > :42:40.specifically for all the way in which religions have done this, but
:42:40. > :42:43.the project of saying we need regular reminders to strengthen our
:42:43. > :42:47.ethical impulses is absolutely right, because most of us hover
:42:47. > :42:52.between good and evil most days. Give some examples. We lose her
:42:52. > :42:55.temper. Why do we do that? Frequently, because there is no
:42:55. > :43:00.match to stay calm down, forgive, look at it from the other person's
:43:01. > :43:05.point of view. -- there is no push. Everybody knows you should forgive
:43:05. > :43:09.people. We know it in theory but not in practice, every day. This is
:43:09. > :43:14.what religions are good at. They are machines for reminding you and
:43:14. > :43:21.making vivid things that you know what in theory but that I in
:43:21. > :43:25.practice. In modern society. -- that cannot work in practice, in
:43:25. > :43:31.modern society, we have a education and legislation, religions remind
:43:31. > :43:36.people every day and they'd maybe have a chance of behaving ethically.
:43:36. > :43:43.The problem is with interpretation. Some people might see something and
:43:43. > :43:47.think that is claptrap, no offences meant, but David in a very good job
:43:47. > :43:51.of interpreting them for the modern world, it is a bit of a stretch
:43:51. > :43:56.sometimes. What David Beard which is quite correct it generally
:43:56. > :44:01.speaking, when we look at religious texts they are the problems -- they
:44:01. > :44:05.are the product of a religious society at a specific time. What
:44:05. > :44:09.Alain to Botton is distilled the values that religion's try to
:44:09. > :44:14.cultivate, but what is lacking without religion is the Met the
:44:14. > :44:17.narrative -- if the narrative, there is no ultimate authority,
:44:17. > :44:21.which is essentially the guiding line. They are beautiful values,
:44:21. > :44:26.and we share them as religious people, but I'm sure you have drawn
:44:26. > :44:33.many from them, but for example, when we try to improve our
:44:33. > :44:37.character, as part of being religious, the very practices are
:44:37. > :44:41.religions teachers are there to try to ameliorate those things. Prayer,
:44:41. > :44:46.fasting, giving to charity, they are not just things we think are
:44:46. > :44:49.quite nice, they actually literally help us become better people
:44:49. > :44:53.because they forge a better character. Religions have often
:44:53. > :44:57.argued there should be a punishment or reward system above and beyond
:44:57. > :45:01.goodness itself. I think that is a very dangerous step to take because
:45:01. > :45:05.when you do away with religion, if you really believe it is only
:45:05. > :45:09.heaven and hell keeping everyone on the straight and narrow, you are on
:45:09. > :45:12.to a society fraying at the edges. We need to build up a system where
:45:12. > :45:22.virtue and good this is its own reward, and most people would
:45:22. > :45:29.
:45:29. > :45:34.recognise when week lie or slander Is that not how society's work? We
:45:34. > :45:39.naturally know that if we commit adultery, if we lie, if we still,
:45:39. > :45:45.things fall apart, so it is almost innate, is it not? It is, but it
:45:45. > :45:49.needs reminders. That's where religions constantly rehearsed.
:45:49. > :45:57.They are mechanisms for constant rehearsal. In a secular society, we
:45:58. > :46:01.write laws, and then we leave them in the cupboard. Coming back to the
:46:01. > :46:06.issue of punishment, I think it is a slight caricature of most
:46:06. > :46:09.religions to say that people are good because of fear of hell or
:46:09. > :46:12.desire for Havant. I think most people try to be good people
:46:12. > :46:22.because they are trying to emulate a model, whether it is Jesus,
:46:22. > :46:25.Mohammed, whoever it might be. That's why I am arguing that we do
:46:25. > :46:31.not need a religious superstructure to make this work. You can model
:46:31. > :46:36.yourself on anyone. The Communist society did not quite work out so
:46:36. > :46:44.well. Medals to not quite do it for people. Money does it for people,
:46:44. > :46:48.you need incentives. I think Alain de Botton has proven that point,
:46:48. > :46:54.you do not need a new Ten Commandments, because you can
:46:54. > :46:56.improve the existing ones. David Cameron actually recognise the
:46:56. > :47:00.value of judo Christianity in modern Britain, and the fact that
:47:00. > :47:04.there should be more or focus on that going forward. From a Muslim
:47:04. > :47:08.point of view, it is quite refreshing to see a politician
:47:08. > :47:14.actually use religion in a positive context. Whilst we may not need a
:47:14. > :47:19.new Ten Commandments, I agreed with the words of Rabbi Jonathan Sacks,
:47:19. > :47:23.whose words were quoted in a book, who says that Jews and Christians
:47:23. > :47:29.should work together to reclaim the soul of Europe through but their
:47:29. > :47:32.teaching us. I would go further and say, hang on, guys, work with the
:47:32. > :47:37.Muslim community and Sikhs and Buddhists, because there are a lot
:47:37. > :47:41.of social problems that we can address. Also work with atheists,
:47:41. > :47:44.with non-believers. This has been the problem with Richard Dawkins,
:47:44. > :47:49.that he has been so busy attacking what he sees as the superstition of
:47:49. > :47:53.religion, but he has not focused on what atheists would also need. I
:47:53. > :47:57.would add non-believers to your category, they deserve to be part
:47:57. > :48:03.of an ethical project, as much as anyone else. I think you can learn
:48:03. > :48:06.a lot from other religions. As a Sikh, I believe there is one God,
:48:06. > :48:11.but it is one God for everyone, it doesn't much matter what religion
:48:11. > :48:16.you will. We all believe in the same God, all religions are simply
:48:16. > :48:22.different paths to the same God. As a Sikh, I believe there are things
:48:22. > :48:27.which society could benefit from. Two which come to mind specifically
:48:27. > :48:31.- one would be based on the words of the last of the living rooms,
:48:31. > :48:36.which effectively mean, to recognise the whole of humanity as
:48:37. > :48:45.one. Treat everyone equally. Have total equality in society,
:48:45. > :48:49.regardless of gender, age, race, anything. And so it ties in to a
:48:49. > :48:52.command and within the Christian faith. Very quickly, first of all,
:48:52. > :48:56.the notion that people cannot practise the achievement of
:48:56. > :49:01.goodness or the expression of love in its purest possible form,
:49:01. > :49:07.without going through some kind of religious practice, and I am not
:49:08. > :49:17.looking at you particularly, I think faith discourse... First of
:49:18. > :49:18.
:49:18. > :49:24.all, I think faith societies try to place conversations around values
:49:24. > :49:34.at the heart. I do not believe secular societies are anti faith.
:49:34. > :49:37.
:49:37. > :49:41.It depends which society. The idea that the values expressed by the
:49:41. > :49:45.world's religions cannot be experienced even in a spiritual
:49:45. > :49:49.sense by people who are non- believers is something that we need
:49:49. > :49:57.to challenge. They are really important values, and it is a
:49:57. > :50:03.brilliant Potton discourse. Alain de Botton is reminding us
:50:03. > :50:13.powerfully and clearly that Essex and morals are not the preserve of
:50:13. > :50:14.
:50:15. > :50:19.religious beliefs. That's my first comment. -- ethics. My second is,
:50:19. > :50:28.his attempt to put up a charter for aspiring to be good is completely
:50:28. > :50:31.admirable. Read his charter, be a better person... Well, I liked a
:50:31. > :50:36.lot of what he had to say, but the difficulty with it, from the
:50:36. > :50:40.standpoint of somebody who used to be a Catholic and is now a atheist,
:50:40. > :50:46.is this, that what we wanted to escape was the idea of Commandments,
:50:46. > :50:52.the whole idea that our own rationality was not the source of
:50:52. > :50:57.our ethical behaviour. There is a large number of ways at which we
:50:57. > :51:01.can arrive at ethical behaviour. We do not need to ape religions, to
:51:01. > :51:04.pretend that what we really are is religious people. One of the
:51:04. > :51:08.delights of leaving the Catholic Church and becoming an atheist is
:51:08. > :51:15.that us atheists are not required to believe in the infallibility of
:51:15. > :51:22.process a Dawkins. -- in the infallibility of Professor Dawkins.
:51:22. > :51:26.It is all fine, we work it out as we go along. Alain de Botton said,
:51:26. > :51:31.most people will reason their way to Voce. I agree with you, because
:51:31. > :51:39.I believe virtue is innate. My fear is the word most. Some will not.
:51:39. > :51:43.Some do not. One of the reasons why the Ten Commandments works is
:51:43. > :51:48.because some of them about saying, Obaid God. That is the compulsion.
:51:48. > :51:55.If you do not have God, you reason your way to goodness but you are
:51:55. > :51:59.not compelled to do good. That's the benefit of belief. It does not
:51:59. > :52:05.always work but it means that the individual who has that compulsion
:52:05. > :52:09.has something beyond themselves... Is it that the compulsion comes
:52:10. > :52:17.from the threat of punishment? the aspiration to good which is
:52:17. > :52:20.embodied in God. I have to go to science-fiction conventions for
:52:20. > :52:25.work, and I have come up with a theory that you cannot get more
:52:25. > :52:29.than three science-fiction fans in a group without some physical law
:52:29. > :52:37.of the universe live in, and they start throwing their money out for
:52:37. > :52:43.charity. I went to such a gathering in America, and they collected
:52:43. > :52:47.3,500 units of blood from cling on as! It is a in something. And we do
:52:47. > :52:52.have discussions about ethics in the public sphere. It is one of our
:52:52. > :53:00.constant preoccupations. Of course, many of those ethics have been
:53:00. > :53:03.written by Christian scholars. just codified. There is a beautiful
:53:03. > :53:07.irony about the Ten Commandments, that they only work when you come
:53:07. > :53:12.to them twice. You come to them first of all as a mirror, you look
:53:12. > :53:17.at them, you measure yourself and you take a long, clear look at them.
:53:17. > :53:21.And if you are like me, and Alain de Botton picked this up in his
:53:22. > :53:25.book, how childish and simple and nasty we are. He picks it up so
:53:25. > :53:31.often. So, use them as a mirror. That's the first time you come to
:53:31. > :53:38.them. Can I finish? You find out that you are bankrupt. And then you
:53:38. > :53:43.turn around for help, and you find, on the cross, God, taking all that
:53:43. > :53:53.failure upon himself. Once you get that forgiveness, you go back to
:53:53. > :54:02.
:54:02. > :54:05.the Ten Commandments, and you find them as a blueprint to flourish.
:54:05. > :54:09.You look for moral guidance, and the moral guidance is what we have
:54:09. > :54:13.been arguing about for the past 45 minutes. The Commandments are the
:54:13. > :54:17.only part of the Bible which Christians more or less agree on.
:54:17. > :54:23.But do they not need to be complemented by other ways of
:54:23. > :54:26.thinking and being? Love thy neighbour is not in there, and some
:54:26. > :54:33.argue it is one of the most important things in the Bible.
:54:33. > :54:36.would say, if we do something because of fear, or an authority,
:54:36. > :54:43.that means that if it were not written in the Ten Commandments,
:54:43. > :54:47.would we do it? I think we have to do what we feel is right in our
:54:48. > :54:51.conscience. If we follow the golden rule, whatever you do, make sure it
:54:51. > :54:57.does not harm anyone else, if we just teach that to kids, rather
:54:57. > :55:02.than... All too often in society, we look at the negatives, rather
:55:02. > :55:06.than the positive. These 10 Commandments teach us about human
:55:06. > :55:10.witness, and we look at, we should not do this. But they do not look
:55:10. > :55:17.at what we should do. And we can always look at the negatives, but
:55:17. > :55:26.we need to focus on the positives - we should try to be a better person,
:55:26. > :55:31.to love your neighbour, the fundamentals of Christian belief.
:55:31. > :55:35.But there is a new ones about it, thou shalt not lie - is it always a
:55:35. > :55:39.bad thing to lie? As Muslims, we look at the Ten Commandments, and
:55:39. > :55:43.we say, if you distill them, the essence of them is something we
:55:43. > :55:49.identify with, but the exact wording might not be something we
:55:49. > :55:53.subscribe to, necessary. Obviously, do not lie, if it means, you save
:55:53. > :56:00.the life of an francs, then do lie, because it would be the right thing
:56:00. > :56:04.to do. You can say, this is the right thing to do, but sociologists
:56:04. > :56:08.and students of religion have studied with this for so many years
:56:08. > :56:13.- how do you make people behave morally if you take away religion?
:56:13. > :56:19.After the French religion -- revolution, there was a similar
:56:19. > :56:27.argument. It was recognise that religion had a really important
:56:27. > :56:34.social function in grounding people, which nothing else can replace.
:56:34. > :56:38.What replaces it is community. When you are witnessed by others, that
:56:38. > :56:43.is when your behaviour changes. So, what we need is a good form of
:56:43. > :56:46.witnessing. You need a good moral atmosphere. When you have a
:56:46. > :56:55.degraded moral atmosphere in society, any kind of behaviour is
:56:55. > :57:00.possible. One at a time, thou shalt not all speak at once. You need to
:57:00. > :57:04.create a moral atmosphere, where, when you behave in a bad way, a
:57:04. > :57:14.nasty way, people react and respond, which is how communities have
:57:14. > :57:14.
:57:14. > :57:24.always functioned. But it is profitable to do that. Bill Gates
:57:24. > :57:27.is heralded as a moral centre! it says, though shot not, it means
:57:27. > :57:31.that everybody was doing it, and there was a damn good reason for
:57:31. > :57:37.telling them not to. We have become much more sophisticated. The way to
:57:37. > :57:43.enforce that was true fear, with this Gellert, -- jealous, violent
:57:43. > :57:47.God. We do not believe that God punishes anybody any more. In terms
:57:47. > :57:49.of loving your neighbour, it is a very important point. There was
:57:49. > :57:54.almost a competition between the rabbis to try to reduce the
:57:54. > :57:58.Commandments down to one. One rabbi was asked to explain the whole of
:57:58. > :58:01.teaching standing on one leg. He took the love your neighbour but he
:58:01. > :58:05.turned it around, because you cannot love your neighbour as
:58:05. > :58:09.yourself if you do not like yourself. But he said, whatever is
:58:09. > :58:12.hateful to you, do not do to anybody else. If everybody took
:58:12. > :58:15.that as a way of moving forward, it would build community and respect,
:58:15. > :58:20.it see the things that we are talking about, whether you believe