:00:26. > :00:31.Good morning and welcome to The Big Questions. We're live from Samuel
:00:31. > :00:34.Ryder Academy in St Albans and I'm Nicky Campbell. 10 days ago,
:00:34. > :00:37.protestors from the campaign group No Dash For Gas pleaded guilty to
:00:37. > :00:41.aggravated trespass for their occupation of a power plant last
:00:41. > :00:47.year. Now EDF, the plant's owner, is suing them for �5 million in
:00:47. > :00:49.damages. Our first Big Question: Should protestors be sued? Ben
:00:49. > :00:52.Stewart from Greenpeace says allowing civil suits will
:00:52. > :00:54.fundamentally undermine the right to protest in this country. Lawyer
:00:54. > :01:00.Barbara Hewson says there are plenty of peaceful ways to protest
:01:00. > :01:02.which don't cause damage or create extra costs.
:01:02. > :01:06.St Albans is where Britain's first Christian martyr was beheaded by
:01:06. > :01:11.the occupying Romans for refusing to give up Christianity. Our next
:01:11. > :01:14.Big Question: Should you be willing to die for your faith? Islamic
:01:14. > :01:18.fundamentalist Anjem Choudary says Muslims must be prepared to
:01:18. > :01:23.sacrifice everything, including their lives, for their faith. Imam
:01:23. > :01:28.Ajmaal Masroor says God wants you to live a good life. So if you were
:01:28. > :01:31.held at gunpoint it would be acceptable to deny your faith.
:01:31. > :01:35.It's been a week of politics - parliamentary and sexual. Our last
:01:36. > :01:38.Big Question: Are unwanted advances just part of life? Psychologist
:01:38. > :01:42.Glenn Wilson says men often misinterpret simple pleasantness as
:01:42. > :01:45.a sexual overture. The director of End Violence Against Women says
:01:45. > :01:49.there's a clear difference between flirting and sexual harassment and
:01:49. > :01:59.men know perfectly well when they've crossed the line. Welcome,
:01:59. > :02:05.
:02:05. > :02:08.everybody, to The Big Questions. Last October a group of protestors
:02:08. > :02:14.broke into West Burton power plant, scaled up the chimney stacks and
:02:14. > :02:17.stayed there for seven days. The owners, the French company EDF,
:02:17. > :02:19.says the protest lost its profits through the disruption to the
:02:19. > :02:22.construction of the power plant, and necessitated extra expenditure
:02:22. > :02:26.for security and staffing. In all, EDF is claiming �5 million in
:02:26. > :02:36.damages in a civil suit against the 21 protestors. Should protestors be
:02:36. > :02:41.
:02:41. > :02:47.sued? A have Ben Stewart, spokesperson for Greenpeace, and
:02:47. > :02:53.two protesters who were up the chimney. That must have been scary.
:02:53. > :02:58.Climate change is more scary, that is why we were up there. Worth it?
:02:58. > :03:03.Yeah us, it has brought up some really interesting questions. This
:03:03. > :03:08.EDF civil case is awful. It is wrong they should be suing
:03:08. > :03:15.protesters. If they are successful, what will the implications before
:03:15. > :03:21.your lives? Were losing our houses, we pay a portion of our salary for
:03:21. > :03:26.the rest of our lives to a big company. It is almost less about us,
:03:26. > :03:33.it is about the ability to slap this fine on people who dissent
:03:33. > :03:37.against you. �5 million will destroy us. To them it is half the
:03:37. > :03:43.day's profit, it is purely intimidation to stop people from
:03:43. > :03:47.standing up for what they believe in. Intimidation? I think so. This
:03:47. > :03:52.question depends on whether you think these companies are too
:03:52. > :03:57.powerful or not powerful enough. I think they are too powerful. This
:03:57. > :04:01.will not succeed because EDF is suffering a reputation will
:04:01. > :04:05.collapse because of it at the moment, but it would shift the
:04:05. > :04:12.balance of power in favour of these corporations and that is bad for
:04:12. > :04:17.democracy. They normally would have gone to a Crown Court and been
:04:17. > :04:25.prosecuted in front of the jury. in the case in King's Norton a few
:04:25. > :04:29.years ago. You got climate change specialist in, and they were
:04:29. > :04:38.convinced and they were acquitted. At the jury heard our case and we
:04:38. > :04:42.were acquitted. They found problems with the energy companies, people
:04:42. > :04:49.were saying this was OK, so let's be clear what is happening here -
:04:49. > :04:56.the authorities and the energy companies are trying to shift this
:04:56. > :05:00.into the civil courts. They can throw money at the lawyers for
:05:00. > :05:06.years and the financial penalties are limitless. I think we need
:05:06. > :05:12.direct action in this company. It is a profoundly important tactic
:05:12. > :05:17.the protesters used, the short cut, this ponderous political culture.
:05:18. > :05:24.The electoral cycle? No, it is bad at dealing with climate changing,
:05:24. > :05:31.remote from the people who caused it. We need direct activists when
:05:31. > :05:36.we have the suffragettes, we need do it when activists put themselves
:05:36. > :05:43.between the harpoon and the Whale and stopped whaling, and I think we
:05:44. > :05:49.needed on climate change. We have got the civil rights, apartheid,
:05:49. > :05:53.sometimes you have to step out of the legal framework. I don't agree.
:05:54. > :05:58.Everyone has to obey the law. The fact that you are a climate change
:05:58. > :06:04.protest to does not put you above the law. If you break the civil
:06:04. > :06:13.more, you must expect to face a civil claim for damages, just as if
:06:13. > :06:19.you run someone over on the way to protest in your car. Let Barbara
:06:19. > :06:24.finish. They trust Bast, and it is one thing to have a peaceful
:06:24. > :06:29.protest, I am not against that, you can protest outside the plant, go
:06:29. > :06:33.on the internet, write to your MP, but it is not right to say you can
:06:33. > :06:43.dress pass and expect to get away with it because if someone doesn't
:06:43. > :06:43.
:06:43. > :06:48.like you trespassing they are within their rights to sue you.
:06:48. > :06:54.knew the legal consequences but we took the risk because it is so
:06:54. > :07:02.important someone stands up. are trespassing into our climate.
:07:02. > :07:07.That is ridiculous. The government is not always right. If this is
:07:07. > :07:14.pursued we will crash our climate targets. We will have more fuel
:07:14. > :07:22.poverty in this country, by 2020, �600 will be added to the average
:07:22. > :07:27.family's fuel bill. We did ask EDF to appear on the programme but they
:07:27. > :07:32.didn't want to trespass on The Big Questions. Why is that the
:07:32. > :07:37.ridiculous argument? It is ridiculous to say that believing
:07:37. > :07:44.passionately in something puts you above the law. We are not talking
:07:44. > :07:54.about the law here. Richard North, there were some powerful words
:07:54. > :07:55.
:07:55. > :08:01.about this in the Guardian - "the multinational EDF pursuing these
:08:01. > :08:06.idealistic young people, it is like the greedy pursuing the selfless,
:08:06. > :08:12.the rich pursuing the poor, world wreckers pursuing defenders of the
:08:12. > :08:18.Environment". I think it is rot. These people were pursuing direct
:08:18. > :08:22.action to force an issue when you got tired of discussing it. They
:08:22. > :08:27.are fully enfranchised citizens in a great democracy which rather
:08:27. > :08:32.wisely is going for gas as against coal and this power station was a
:08:32. > :08:38.move in that direction. These people decided to inflict economic
:08:38. > :08:40.damage very carefully. They are calculating young people with a
:08:40. > :08:46.knife appear to but also an understanding that you shouldn't do
:08:46. > :08:51.physical damage. You do economic damage, caused as much as you can
:08:51. > :08:56.and get as much attention as you can. That economic damage harmed
:08:56. > :08:59.the economy, which is not in great shape. They are hurting their
:08:59. > :09:04.fellow-citizens because they are tired of making an argument that
:09:04. > :09:11.they keep losing. I'm sorry they keep losing it, they are noble
:09:11. > :09:17.people, certainly braver than I am, but what they did was wrong and
:09:17. > :09:22.they cost economic damage. I happen to be a customer of EDF and quite
:09:22. > :09:26.probably my penchant is a shareholder in EDF so when you
:09:26. > :09:31.amusingly go against this Corporation, you are hitting
:09:31. > :09:35.ordinary not very well-off people. There is a global consensus that
:09:35. > :09:39.action needs to be taken against climate change. Politicians have
:09:39. > :09:47.been talking about this for 23 years, in that time carbon
:09:47. > :09:52.emissions have risen by 53%. I care about the state of this planet, I
:09:52. > :09:57.care about it for my kids and it is so important we take serious action.
:09:57. > :10:03.You will have to find ways of bearing witness to that passion.
:10:03. > :10:07.Don't you think I have spent every day e-mailing my MP? Don't cause
:10:07. > :10:14.economic damage in a democracy that has decided against your point of
:10:14. > :10:24.view. You are costing citizens' money which we will want for you.
:10:24. > :10:35.
:10:35. > :10:38.Anjem. -- Ajmal. If the company is making environmental damage, the
:10:38. > :10:43.consequences will be borne by our children and we must do something
:10:43. > :10:53.about it. I will boycott and asked everyone to boycott EDF as soon as
:10:53. > :10:57.possible. The money they are making is a grotesque amount of profit.
:10:57. > :11:02.the money they are making is in a very heavily regulated environment.
:11:02. > :11:09.If you want to go without their gas and make that protest, great,
:11:09. > :11:13.joined you're young friends, but what you should be careful of is to
:11:13. > :11:19.break the law and cause your fellow-citizens economic loss which
:11:19. > :11:26.we will sue you for. Her hand went up at the back. What do you want to
:11:26. > :11:30.say? If EDF continue, we will pay the damage collectively so they do
:11:30. > :11:40.have a right to protest in that way, even if it is to inflict damage
:11:40. > :11:41.
:11:41. > :11:45.because in the end we will suffer the consequences, not EDF a loan.
:11:45. > :11:49.Protest is a really healthy thing in our democratic society. We
:11:49. > :11:54.wouldn't have the right we have if there weren't centuries of protest
:11:54. > :12:01.before us. The right for women to vote is because of the jet took
:12:01. > :12:05.peaceful and none breeze full means of protesting. It is very important
:12:05. > :12:10.that disenfranchised people are quoted great deal of slack when
:12:10. > :12:14.they are asking for franchise. And franchised people who have an
:12:14. > :12:21.enormous voice within the society have much less right to break the
:12:21. > :12:26.law. I feel even more passionately I should be acting on behalf of
:12:26. > :12:32.those less franchised than me. We take responsibility seriously.
:12:32. > :12:39.much of this is an own goal for EDF to have this in the public domain?
:12:39. > :12:43.The trial a few years ago went on forever. Is it a similar scenario?
:12:43. > :12:47.It is similar and I think that goes to the heart of the issue. It is
:12:47. > :12:54.less about corporal morality and more about corporal intelligence
:12:54. > :12:58.and EDF have shown a complete lack of intelligence. There have been
:12:58. > :13:02.manipulated into a space where they don't really belong, they don't
:13:02. > :13:07.know what they are talking about and of course the law is the more
:13:07. > :13:17.but they don't have to sue these people. They have no way of paying
:13:17. > :13:17.
:13:17. > :13:21.�5 million. It is not going to get you anywhere. You are creating
:13:21. > :13:28.martyrs out of these people which gives their argument more support
:13:28. > :13:34.amongst public opinion. That is what they will look like. It is not
:13:34. > :13:40.worth �5 million, the damage they are doing to themselves. Who is to
:13:40. > :13:44.say, Alison, I know you have been trying to come in. I have almost
:13:44. > :13:48.forgotten what I wanted to say. For you almost climbed a chimney in
:13:48. > :13:54.protest. Who's to say that in 50 years we will not look back at
:13:54. > :14:04.these idealistic people and think they were the Emily Davidsons of
:14:04. > :14:05.
:14:05. > :14:15.their day. They are not, they will not... Her it is a tactical mistake.
:14:15. > :14:17.
:14:17. > :14:22.They will not be bankrupted. Alison. $:/STARTFEED. We We should go to
:14:23. > :14:27.the criminal courts. They pleaded guilty to aggravated
:14:27. > :14:31.trespass. We should keep it in the criminal courts.
:14:31. > :14:40.Are you saying that people shouldn't have civil rights which
:14:40. > :14:46.they can't exercise... I don't think they should be able to
:14:46. > :14:55.because they are wrecking democracy and Free Speech and I think...
:14:55. > :15:01.are they wrecking democracy if they are speaking? You don't like
:15:01. > :15:06.democracy, what are you are you going to contribute here? You want
:15:06. > :15:10.to abolish democracy?. We are missingted point m people have a --
:15:10. > :15:18.point. People have a grievance. People should not be polluting the
:15:18. > :15:22.environment. These people who are protesting really want a Government
:15:22. > :15:26.who does the good thing which is to look after their welfare, to make
:15:26. > :15:32.sure sure their people don't pollute. This cat and mouse that
:15:32. > :15:36.you are having between EDF and the protesters this can be resolved. We
:15:36. > :15:40.believe the environment should be looked after.
:15:40. > :15:47.Sharia, you are saying? People are having to choose between warmth and
:15:47. > :15:54.electricity. If you pro vooded gas -- provided gas, lec and water roe
:15:54. > :15:59.-- electricity and water free of charge you wouldn't have this.
:15:59. > :16:03.Damien? EDF would be better advised instead of spending millions on
:16:03. > :16:06.lawyers, spending the same amount of money explaining to their
:16:06. > :16:11.opponents why what they are they are doing is a good thing. That gas
:16:11. > :16:16.is a a good idea and investing in more gas is a good idea and that
:16:16. > :16:20.would be a better way of spending the money. If you want to stop
:16:20. > :16:25.people attacking you, you have got to get them to support you. That's
:16:25. > :16:31.what they should be spending their money on. Isn't it interesting they
:16:31. > :16:36.have not done that? We are not protesting against a gas
:16:36. > :16:40.powerisation. They are trying to build 40 new gas-powered power
:16:40. > :16:46.stations. We are talk about the economics and the cost of that.
:16:46. > :16:53.This is an economic problem. Come on, let me finish, please. We are
:16:53. > :16:57.building 40 mu gas fired -- new gas fired power stations. If we look at
:16:57. > :17:00.renewables, within a few years, they will be at equal price. We are
:17:00. > :17:05.locking ourselves into a fossil fuel.
:17:05. > :17:08.Would you have been willing to go to jail for this? Some of us may
:17:08. > :17:14.well end up doing that. It is not that we don't take responsibility
:17:14. > :17:20.for our actions. It is that important to you, you believe.
:17:20. > :17:26.There maybe people who that happens to you.
:17:26. > :17:30.Would Jesus have been a climate change protestor? Would Jesus have
:17:30. > :17:33.been up that chimney? We have a strange view of Jesus. He talks
:17:33. > :17:36.about blessed are the peace makers and lots and lots of talk about
:17:36. > :17:41.peace and turning the other cheek, but one of the things that strikes
:17:41. > :17:45.me in the gospels is that story about Jesus going into the temple
:17:45. > :17:49.and seeing they turned it into a market place. They were charging
:17:49. > :17:53.interest that was too high and they were selling people animals that
:17:53. > :17:59.were too expensive and they had to buy them and Jesus walks in and we
:17:59. > :18:02.might expect him to say, "Peace. Chill everybody." He grabbed a whip
:18:02. > :18:10.and started turning the tables and there was animals and money
:18:10. > :18:19.crashing to the floor and he he shouts "you have turned my House of
:18:19. > :18:24.Prayer into a den of thieves." was righteous anger.
:18:24. > :18:30.The gentleman at the microphone. today's world, Jesus would have
:18:30. > :18:36.been prosecuted by the CPS about what he did in the temple. The
:18:37. > :18:42.question to EDF, a French State owned company, France's Government,
:18:42. > :18:48.why are they working against people that are sent in? It is a surprise
:18:48. > :18:53.State owned company. The other issue is about the �5 million. The
:18:53. > :18:59.police said that was not the costs that were involved. Where is the �5
:18:59. > :19:07.million figure from? Let's be clear, let's... Excuse me.
:19:07. > :19:11.It is designed to stop direct action. Protest can go way on.
:19:11. > :19:16.Richard, carry on. The important thing is to address
:19:16. > :19:22.Richard's point. You don't really see this in the news, but EDF had
:19:22. > :19:25.staff desconded into the department for energy and climate change. The
:19:25. > :19:29.people are writing policy in Government. You have a naive view
:19:29. > :19:35.if you think we vote every five years and we get what we want.
:19:35. > :19:39.That's not how it works and sometimes you have to... Hu your
:19:39. > :19:43.hand up -- you had your hand up for ages.
:19:43. > :19:46.I have a respect for these ladies and it is unfair that we are
:19:46. > :19:50.prosecuting them as if they are thugs. They are fighting for
:19:50. > :19:53.something that affects us all and that we all believe in.
:19:53. > :19:58.Even if they are not, you should support that. Would you support it,
:19:58. > :20:02.what if there are people in UKIP had electoral success and there are
:20:02. > :20:09.people in the Conservative Party who don't like the idea of
:20:09. > :20:12.windfarms. If there was somewhere being made in their area, would you
:20:12. > :20:17.support their right to stop them working? I would actually because
:20:17. > :20:21.it is about being consulted. It is about having a part in democracy.
:20:21. > :20:25.We have to have a say in how our energy is again ratz and where it
:20:25. > :20:31.is source generated and where it is sourced.
:20:31. > :20:35.It is our gas. Protest in general? Well, it is our
:20:35. > :20:40.gas. EDF is only doing one job. They cannot take our gas and sue us
:20:40. > :20:44.for it. Do you support protest? I do.
:20:44. > :20:47.What about when they were burning poppies? No, I don't agree with
:20:47. > :20:53.that. Shouldn't we be consistent?
:20:53. > :20:57.consistency, it is our gas. We need it provided to people, free and
:20:57. > :21:03.fair and at a fair price and the struggle is between greed and
:21:03. > :21:06.resources and that's what we are seeing right now. EDF is about
:21:06. > :21:10.protecting their own profit and we are about protecting our own energy
:21:10. > :21:15.and renewable energy for the coming days in the future.
:21:15. > :21:18.I think that misses the economic argument. Because the real question
:21:18. > :21:22.we are asking here, although climate change is a real issue and
:21:22. > :21:26.it will affect our children and it affects us today, if you said to
:21:26. > :21:31.the ordinary consumer, the ordinary EDF consumer, would you be prepared
:21:31. > :21:38.to pay higher electricity prices today for having on shore wind
:21:38. > :21:44.which is more expensive today than gas is, most people would say no.
:21:44. > :21:49.Tomorrow's children and our grandchildren, they may well better,
:21:49. > :21:56.be better off from reduced climate change, but there will be
:21:56. > :22:00.significantly higher fuel poverty poverty. Climate change is an issue
:22:00. > :22:04.that needs to be addressed. There is a social issue that needs be
:22:04. > :22:12.addressed for people today. Thank you very much indeed. Thank
:22:12. > :22:17.you for taking part. If you would like to add to that debate, log on
:22:17. > :22:21.to The Big Questions. We are debating live from St Albans,
:22:21. > :22:26.should you be willing to die for your faith? Are unwanted advances
:22:26. > :22:30.just a part of life? Tell us what you think about those ideas. Send
:22:30. > :22:35.us any general comments that you you would like to make about the
:22:35. > :22:39.programme. Well, St Alban died for his faith
:22:39. > :22:45.over 1500 years and Christians are being persecuted over the world.
:22:45. > :22:48.Last month, four Christians were arrested in Libya for distributing
:22:48. > :22:56.bibles and may face the death penalty. Should you be be willing
:22:56. > :23:01.to die for your faith?. According to a recent report, Alison, it was
:23:01. > :23:06.by freedom house, Christianity is the most persecuted religion in the
:23:06. > :23:09.world. You know about this. In 87 countries, Christians are a
:23:09. > :23:13.religious minority. Some of the countries are countries of great
:23:14. > :23:20.concern, whether they be North Korea which is a secular country of
:23:20. > :23:25.sorts. We have Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Libya, Egypt, northern
:23:25. > :23:28.Nigeria. Going across to Nigeria. There is There is serious
:23:28. > :23:32.persecution of Christians in Nigeria. What is sad, so much of
:23:32. > :23:36.this doesn't hit the secular press and we don't know about it. There
:23:36. > :23:39.are people who were Christians who were crucified last year and you
:23:39. > :23:45.can't believe this is happening. People being... Why is it
:23:45. > :23:48.happening? Mm, I just think that in these Islamic countries they are
:23:48. > :23:54.not prepared to be reasonable enough to allow Christians to
:23:54. > :24:01.flourish in their countries. They see Christianity as a a threat,
:24:01. > :24:05.goodness know why, but they do. There were churches burned down and
:24:05. > :24:07.people harassed and murdered. Or you are thrown into prison with no
:24:07. > :24:15.trial and you are stuck there. It is not just Islamic countries.
:24:15. > :24:18.There is a lot of persecution of Christians in China.
:24:18. > :24:22.North Korea is the worst country to be a Christian in today.
:24:22. > :24:25.So if you were in one of these countries, and Libya, it is
:24:25. > :24:31.frightening what's happening in Libya, would you proclaim your
:24:31. > :24:34.faith? I hope so, but it will be hard. I think these people are
:24:34. > :24:37.remarkable. They are brave. And the other thing, of course, that
:24:37. > :24:47.happens it is in India too. You hope you would proclaim your
:24:47. > :24:52.faith? I hope so. Would you go out and leaflet and Bibles, who you
:24:52. > :24:56.spread the word of Christ with the risk of death? The lord Jesus
:24:56. > :25:00.Christ died for everyone of us. We were talking about hell earlier. In
:25:00. > :25:06.order that we can have eternal life by belief in him. Therefore, you
:25:06. > :25:08.care about people that they have that opportunity of having eternal
:25:08. > :25:13.life. You are a great admirer of Osama
:25:13. > :25:19.Bin Laden and you said that he sacrificed his life for what he
:25:19. > :25:26.believed. Why do you admire that martyrdom? Let me make a point for
:25:26. > :25:33.Alison. No so-called Muslim country in the world today is implementing
:25:33. > :25:37.the Sharia. What do you mean? in Saudi Arabia. He wants the
:25:37. > :25:39.proper Sharia. There is no room for manoeuvre in in any of these
:25:40. > :25:47.countries. If You look at the history when we
:25:47. > :25:51.had the Sharia, 800 years in Spain. If you look for example in Syria,
:25:51. > :25:54.the churches are still there. What people are doing in the name of
:25:54. > :25:58.religion... This is important, coming back to what I was saying,
:25:58. > :26:03.would you be allowed to spread the word of Christ and give people
:26:03. > :26:07.Bibles and leaflets and convert them to Christianity, yes or no?
:26:07. > :26:15.would envit them to -- invite them to embrace Islam.
:26:15. > :26:19.I take that as a no. If you look at Spain under the Shah under Sharia,
:26:19. > :26:22.the Christian and Jewish texts were translated into modern European
:26:22. > :26:32.languages because the Muslims allowed them. It is not against
:26:32. > :26:35.material... Would they be able to convert Muslims? No. Exactly.
:26:36. > :26:40.a second, Alison. Allow me to say what Islam says. Christians and
:26:40. > :26:46.Jews would be allowed to practise their religion in their churches,
:26:46. > :26:51.and synagogues and homes. It is a Christian's duty to spread the word.
:26:51. > :27:00.Because of the love of God. Let's have a look. In Kashmir, we are
:27:00. > :27:03.hounded by the Hindus. In Chechnya by the Russians. Tony Blair and
:27:03. > :27:09.George Bush were Christians, they bombed us in Iraq and Afghanistan.
:27:09. > :27:12.If you are going to look at what people are doing... They came to
:27:12. > :27:16.help you in Kosovo. They didn't help us.
:27:16. > :27:20.Is it it right to be in a situation that you would proclaim for your
:27:21. > :27:25.faith and be willing to die for your faith or should you tell a
:27:25. > :27:28.little white lie? The purpose is to lead a good descend life and if you
:27:29. > :27:32.are dead, you are useless to yourself and you are useless to God.
:27:32. > :27:40.I don't think the purpose of all of us is to die. Death will come, but
:27:40. > :27:43.in the process of proclaiming your faith and in the process of
:27:43. > :27:47.standing for justice and it is a fantastic thing, people should
:27:47. > :27:55.celebrate that. What's we call the glory of a person who has given
:27:55. > :28:02.their life to pro protecting other human beings. The other point, was
:28:02. > :28:08.to do with Sharia. I disagree with that. Islam wouldn't stop
:28:08. > :28:11.Chrisanity or or any other religion from propagating their faith.
:28:11. > :28:15.It does. Islam wouldn't. There is a verse in
:28:15. > :28:18.the Koran which is clear. There is no compassion in religion. Nobody
:28:18. > :28:23.would be compelled to convert or accept any faith of anyone's choice,
:28:23. > :28:31.it would be their choice. If you want to live in a a Muslim society,
:28:31. > :28:35.there should be a free-market for all faith to flourish and propagate.
:28:35. > :28:41.I agree there isn't. Islam would allow it. Why isn't, hold on, why
:28:41. > :28:51.isn't at the moment, I will I will give an example now. My parents
:28:51. > :28:53.
:28:53. > :28:58.come from Bangladesh. The bash desh Government -- Bangladesh Government
:28:58. > :29:02.- there were people shot dead this morning. It is not only Christians
:29:02. > :29:08.persecuted, I am saying secular fundamentalists are persecuting
:29:08. > :29:12.people of relij on. People -- religion. People persecute one
:29:12. > :29:17.another for other reasons. I believe this the whole world is one,
:29:17. > :29:20.Alison. We cannot fight with one another saying your religion is
:29:20. > :29:25.better than mine or mine is better than yours.
:29:25. > :29:30.We would have no programme on a Sunday morning! My job is to bring
:29:30. > :29:40.the world together and that's what the job is of all faiths, I believe.
:29:40. > :29:45.
:29:45. > :29:50.Religion is good. Human beings People will not be propagating what
:29:50. > :29:55.they here in a public arena. you will be wrong. Am afraid that
:29:55. > :30:03.is from your own designs. We know that you love-making statements
:30:03. > :30:13.which are headline grabbing. It will be contradictory of God to say
:30:13. > :30:17.
:30:18. > :30:27.if people of the book were spared them, eat food, marry into their
:30:28. > :30:33.
:30:33. > :30:43.family,, but stop them from... you believe people should die for
:30:43. > :30:45.
:30:45. > :30:52.abandonment of faith? I believe... Another yes, isn't it? Kill him,
:30:52. > :31:02.after a court trial, evidence, that is living under Sharia court.
:31:02. > :31:05.
:31:05. > :31:14.Richard North. Matters are a very good thing in terms of St Alban, on
:31:15. > :31:18.the other hand one should counsel against it when it is glamorised.
:31:18. > :31:22.Young Muslims should not be encouraged and the idea there is
:31:23. > :31:30.something sexy and glamorous about martyrdom because they are inclined
:31:31. > :31:36.to take a lot of people down with them when they go. As well as
:31:36. > :31:41.wastefully sacrificing their own beautiful young lives. Good morning.
:31:41. > :31:46.My friends used to live in East Ham, they used to preach on the street
:31:46. > :31:50.and I have actually gone out with them. This is some years ago, they
:31:50. > :31:56.said that now if you go out onto the streets someone will take a
:31:56. > :32:06.picture of you and say that you are stirring up hatred so you are not
:32:06. > :32:07.
:32:07. > :32:14.free to go out on the streets. Nowadays a Muslim is guilty before
:32:14. > :32:16.being proven in a court. If you have changed your name. What do you
:32:16. > :32:26.think about Richard saying martyrdom was such a waste? Would
:32:26. > :32:27.
:32:27. > :32:34.you give your life for your fake? Absolutely. Obviously when you die
:32:34. > :32:39.for you and belief system, it is not a waste. Are you are short of a
:32:39. > :32:49.place in paradise? Absolutely. The Christians and Jews being allowed
:32:49. > :32:51.
:32:51. > :33:01.to propagate their belief, categorically no because... Let's
:33:01. > :33:02.
:33:02. > :33:11.not become like the monkeys in a hostile parliament. Categorically
:33:11. > :33:21.it is forbidden the Jews and the Christians propagating in a Muslim
:33:21. > :33:25.state. I can see the falsehood of Christianity. David Griffiths, we
:33:25. > :33:29.hear what Anthony says, I know you don't agree, but Christian's the
:33:29. > :33:33.world over are having a very persecuted existence in some of
:33:33. > :33:38.these countries we have mentioned. It would take a great deal of
:33:38. > :33:44.courage to proclaim your faith in some of these situations. Yes, and
:33:44. > :33:49.the debate so far has focused on propagation and how that causes
:33:49. > :33:54.tensions that sometimes leads people... His discretion the better
:33:54. > :34:00.part of valour? I think people are compelled by their faith to carry
:34:00. > :34:10.out a whole range of actions. They may take up a particular causes,
:34:10. > :34:20.driven by the things they believe. Yesterday was the second
:34:20. > :34:26.
:34:26. > :34:34.anniversary of the assassination of a Pakistani politician who spoke up.
:34:34. > :34:38.I need to correct this, sorry to interrupt. He was quoting in the
:34:38. > :34:43.Koran when God says those who died in the cause of God don't say they
:34:43. > :34:50.are dead, in fact they're receiving sustenance. That is about people
:34:50. > :34:54.who have died in a virtuous way, which used to be able to uphold
:34:55. > :34:58.justice and truth but it does not encourage you to kill yourself,
:34:58. > :35:05.that is the difference. If you die it in the process we should glorify
:35:05. > :35:13.you, but not glamorise the death itself and that is the difference.
:35:13. > :35:18.You can come in after Vicky. perspective is that we look at
:35:18. > :35:22.martyrdom often are something distant and if you look for the
:35:22. > :35:26.process of coming to faith in Christ is supposed to be the death
:35:26. > :35:32.there and then, it is supposed to be the starting point of
:35:32. > :35:36.Christianity. Jesus says take up your cross, take up your guillotine,
:35:36. > :35:41.pick up you're electric chair, that is not a great welcome but that is
:35:42. > :35:46.the message of Christianity. I think we should be surrendering to
:35:46. > :35:51.that message of dying from the outset. There is a risk of
:35:51. > :36:01.glamorising death when it is a mundane reality. What about if
:36:01. > :36:06.religion is not particularly your defining Crete, would you put your
:36:06. > :36:10.life on the line for what you believe in? Yes, I have spent a lot
:36:10. > :36:15.of time in Palestine and the Gaza Strip and I was driven not by
:36:15. > :36:18.religious belief but by have faith in humanity, in the collective, in
:36:18. > :36:24.a shared planet and I think that is what guides a lot of religious
:36:25. > :36:29.people. But when you are beaten and you have got cigarette burns and
:36:29. > :36:33.kicking and imprisonment and frightful torture every single day
:36:33. > :36:39.because you say it I love the Lord Jesus Christ, I am a Christian and
:36:39. > :36:45.I don't want to change, would you do that every day? St Alban was
:36:45. > :36:49.killed in this town by the Romans who showed a complete lack of
:36:49. > :36:53.tolerance. There was a lack of tolerance on the part of the Romans
:36:53. > :36:58.and yet nearly 2000 years later we are still sitting in this room
:36:58. > :37:02.debating that same issue. There is a lack of tolerance in this world
:37:02. > :37:09.and that is the root cause. If there was more tolerance we
:37:09. > :37:13.wouldn't have to talk about dying for your faith. It is almost a moot
:37:13. > :37:19.point whether you die for your belief or not, it will always
:37:19. > :37:25.happen. The point is we should not be glorifying it, we should regret
:37:25. > :37:31.that it was necessary. By saying it is somehow this fantastic thing, it
:37:31. > :37:36.encourages it to were others. Address the reason why. What about
:37:36. > :37:40.Muslims who decide to take their own life because they are going to
:37:40. > :37:46.Paradise, who take a whole lot of other lives as well? That is
:37:46. > :37:51.absolute murder. Can that be right? It is easy to die, but difficult to
:37:51. > :37:57.move for your faith and that should be the motto of all faiths.
:37:57. > :38:02.course. If I commit murder... Although us who commit suicide have
:38:02. > :38:12.opened up a one-way ticket to help as far as I am concerned. God does
:38:12. > :38:14.
:38:14. > :38:16.not want you to kill yourself. People are doing operations in the
:38:16. > :38:22.battlefield or because of retaliation of what has happened to
:38:22. > :38:32.the Muslims. There is a difference between that and cutting your
:38:32. > :38:37.
:38:37. > :38:43.wrists. I am saying it is different to taking calculated risks on the
:38:43. > :38:47.battlefield, it is different, strapping a bomb to yourself is
:38:47. > :38:53.murder and mayhem. He few feel so strongly about your faith, the best
:38:53. > :39:02.thing you can do is to live and inspire people with the where you
:39:02. > :39:08.do. In India there has been a tremendous amount of persecution
:39:08. > :39:15.against Christians by Hindu extremists. That is really sad,
:39:15. > :39:19.particularly in 2009. Hinduism is a pretty peaceful religion. If you
:39:19. > :39:23.look at the war's over the last hundred years, very few if any have
:39:23. > :39:29.been propagated by Hinduism. They say it if you are thinking about
:39:29. > :39:33.death, in the last phase of your life when you have completed your
:39:33. > :39:36.life, you have created wealth and your family and your community and
:39:36. > :39:40.you have no more material possessions, that is the right time
:39:40. > :39:46.to die because you are happy with life and you have nothing else you
:39:46. > :39:51.need to achieve. If you die earlier, you are dying in a state of
:39:51. > :39:56.frustration or anger and that is bad karma and that doesn't allow
:39:56. > :40:03.you to achieve salvation. Live your life to the full. Exactly. Thank
:40:03. > :40:08.you. It you have anything to say about that debate, more gone to the
:40:08. > :40:10.website. You can follow the discussion. Or send us your views
:40:10. > :40:14.about our last Big Question: Are unwanted advances just part of
:40:14. > :40:17.life? And if you would like to be in the audience at a future show,
:40:17. > :40:20.you can email. We're in Londonderry next week, then we're in York on
:40:20. > :40:24.March 17th to make two programmes, one a pre-recorded special asking,
:40:25. > :40:34."Should Britain become a secular society?" And then after Easter we
:40:34. > :40:39.will be in Oxford on April 7th. In the 1930s the mothers of debutantes
:40:39. > :40:42.used to draw up lists of suitable and unsuitable men. NSIT - Not Safe
:40:42. > :40:50.In Taxis, or MTF, Must Touch Flesh, next to a name removed over-ardent
:40:50. > :40:52.suitors form their guest lists. In the '60s girls used to whisper WHS
:40:52. > :41:01.for Wandering Hands Syndrome when they spotted notorious men
:41:01. > :41:04.advancing. Apparently. It all seems rather coy and outdated. Nowadays
:41:04. > :41:14.we call it what it is - sexual harassment. Are unwanted advances
:41:14. > :41:14.
:41:14. > :41:19.just part of life? Stuff that people should have to deal with?
:41:19. > :41:24.And I don't think they are things we should have to accept, we should
:41:24. > :41:31.not have to sit back and say it is OK but I do think it is a part of
:41:31. > :41:36.life. The fact you have just gone back to the 1960s and the 1930s, on
:41:36. > :41:40.the sleeve it goes back for hundreds of years. We are not just
:41:40. > :41:44.talking about unpleasant physical contact, it tends to be a slightly
:41:44. > :41:51.more powerful character taking advantage of that over somebody
:41:51. > :41:58.they perceived to be less powerful. Power. Yes, and the people who end
:41:58. > :42:03.up in positions of power are often slightly more confident, outwardly.
:42:03. > :42:09.You get to that position of power by being that way, often.
:42:09. > :42:17.Unfortunately when they reach that point they use that to intimidate
:42:17. > :42:23.others. I do think it weakens women to always complain every time.
:42:23. > :42:30.Because I think that part of being human and part of being people is
:42:30. > :42:40.being tactile. He should be OK for me to talk to you and go like that.
:42:40. > :42:44.If that disturbs you... You are not touching his bottom. Give me a
:42:44. > :42:49.chance! I just think there is a lot of play between people and one
:42:49. > :42:53.thing that differentiates people from animals, different types of
:42:53. > :42:59.animals, is that we do cents for other people's feelings and it is
:42:59. > :43:04.perfectly natural to... I don't want to say have a go, but for
:43:04. > :43:09.humans to flirt with each other but it is also human to sense this is
:43:09. > :43:15.not OK, I will back off now. Likewise it is the same for me to
:43:15. > :43:21.be able to say to you, if I thought you were coming on of its strong...
:43:22. > :43:26.Just say it! I would be grown-up enough and I would have been raised
:43:26. > :43:33.strongly enough that I could say to you it is OK, I don't want this,
:43:33. > :43:37.move on. Is it a simple as that? don't think so, and it is fantastic
:43:37. > :43:43.she feels able to stand up for herself but not everybody is able
:43:43. > :43:47.to do. I don't agree that it weakens women to say no. I think
:43:47. > :43:51.even to define these things as the unwanted advances is rather
:43:51. > :43:55.euphemistic, suggesting it might be a misunderstanding that these silly
:43:55. > :44:02.women might be getting the wrong end of the stick. I run a project
:44:02. > :44:06.that collected 20,000 experiences of women in the space of a year,
:44:06. > :44:13.and we are talking about vulnerable women often with men in a position
:44:13. > :44:17.of power. It goes through groping, grabbing, sexual demands from
:44:17. > :44:22.people in a position of power. Women should take it further. It we
:44:22. > :44:31.need to be sending a message this is not just a part of life.
:44:31. > :44:36.$:/STARTFEED. Of course, I agree with what you are saying. We do
:44:36. > :44:40.have to be very careful with all things there are grades of things,
:44:40. > :44:44.you know. There are always grades of things. There is black and white
:44:44. > :44:47.and loads of grey in between. The people that need to be heard, the
:44:47. > :44:52.people who are really coming under a lot of pressure from people which
:44:52. > :44:56.makes them uncomfortable, frightened, intimidated, they have
:44:56. > :45:00.breakdowns, we need to hear that. If there is a huge amount of
:45:00. > :45:05.background noise over every time someone is in a lift and someone
:45:05. > :45:10.goes, "You look a bit nice, love." We can't hear the times it is
:45:10. > :45:13.necessary and I worry about that. As a woman, it disturbs me to hear
:45:13. > :45:16.you say that as a woman and we represent such a different culture
:45:16. > :45:19.here in the western world. If you think about what women go through
:45:19. > :45:25.in many other cultures, they are far behind us in terms of progress.
:45:25. > :45:32.It is very well for us to me it sounds like a first world response
:45:32. > :45:38.to go, "it is background noise. Just get get over it, love." It was
:45:38. > :45:47.interesting with the T-shirts sold on Amazon, keep, calm and different
:45:47. > :45:55.vie violent acts Wednesday women. I saw one in a woman's shop which
:45:55. > :45:59.said, "Keep calm and obey Mr Grey." We have to have one voice and say
:45:59. > :46:07.it is not background noise and every person person counts.
:46:07. > :46:11.Glen Wilson, the author The Science Of Love. You talk about the
:46:12. > :46:17.chemical under tone to it all, but why do some men do it and make
:46:17. > :46:23.these advances when it is clearly not on? Well, they sometimes
:46:24. > :46:30.misread the signals because women as a evolutionary statutory admit a
:46:31. > :46:33.wide variety of ambiguous flirtatious signals, not all of
:46:33. > :46:40.them sexual, but there is something about the male brain which tends to
:46:40. > :46:45.read them as being specifically sexual. I think that's right.
:46:45. > :46:49.Carry on. There is more! That's the fact of the matter. The
:46:49. > :46:55.abuse of power, of course, that is a real issue.
:46:55. > :47:05.But what's going on chemically? What is going on? Well, there are
:47:05. > :47:15.complex sex wars going on. Men emit a chemical which has the capacity
:47:15. > :47:16.
:47:16. > :47:23.to deter other males and females for the most part, except when they
:47:23. > :47:33.are ovutating and women emit a chemical which has the capacity to
:47:33. > :47:33.
:47:33. > :47:39.blind males to the to attractiveness or unattractiveness
:47:39. > :47:43.of another woman. I was just trying to get around the concept of us
:47:43. > :47:47.emiting a chemicals. There are a war going on below
:47:47. > :47:53.consciousness. But we have a frontal lobe which we
:47:53. > :47:56.have developed as well. That sounds like pseudo science nonsense. Men
:47:56. > :48:03.know well the difference between flirting and harassment and most
:48:03. > :48:12.men don't do it. It is really patronising to admitting...
:48:12. > :48:17.Instincts and desires is not about we shouldn't seek to curtain them.
:48:17. > :48:20.-- curtail them. Carry on, Holly. It is just
:48:20. > :48:24.nonsense. We are talking about a range of behaviours so this might
:48:24. > :48:30.be unwanted sexual touching. It might be making sexual comments in
:48:30. > :48:34.the street which can be intimidating and scary. We did a
:48:34. > :48:38.poll with girls about their experiences in school and one in
:48:39. > :48:42.three girls said that they were groped or had experienced inwanted
:48:42. > :48:45.sexual touching at -- unwanted sexual touching at school. Now,
:48:45. > :48:48.that's not acceptable. Girls and boys are growing up in an
:48:48. > :48:52.environment which is telling them that girls are sex objects. They
:48:52. > :49:00.are not equal. They are not to be respected. It has an impact on
:49:00. > :49:04.grades just like in the Lib Dem allegations. It has an impact on
:49:04. > :49:10.womens career progression and it puts women off going into certain
:49:10. > :49:15.careers. Where is the room for flirtation? Flirting is fine. Most
:49:15. > :49:21.human interaction is fine. Clue is in the question - unwanted.
:49:21. > :49:28.Unwanted and non-consensual. I agree with you. I have two
:49:28. > :49:31.teenage daughters and a a ten-year- old son. I see my role as a mother
:49:31. > :49:35.to teach them how to deal with this. When this this happens what do you
:49:35. > :49:39.do? It is not only the role of the person giving out the signals, it
:49:39. > :49:44.is the role of the person in how they spond. Humans have -- respond.
:49:44. > :49:52.Humans have a nanosecond in which we know clearly whether the look
:49:52. > :49:59.you gave me has been reciprocated. It It feels nice and then we have
:49:59. > :50:03.to go, "That's enough now.". are making it sound like it could
:50:03. > :50:06.be a misunderstanding. Thousands of the entries we have had are from
:50:06. > :50:10.really young girls in their school uniform.
:50:10. > :50:19.OK, wait a second. I will not sit there and say that that is just a
:50:19. > :50:24.part of life. I am pleased that the sexual game
:50:24. > :50:29.is being recalibrated in favour of women. But grown-up women realise
:50:29. > :50:35.that men are very slightly unglued in their presence. And that's not
:50:35. > :50:40.going to quickly change. What do you mean? Blimey, haven't you
:50:40. > :50:47.noticed yourself? If you are around women, you are quite prone to be
:50:47. > :50:52.slightly less in charge of yourself than usual! If you don't get that
:50:52. > :50:56.then you are live in a different male world. I care about it a bit.
:50:56. > :51:00.I am pleased that the relationship between men and women is being
:51:00. > :51:05.rebrated against the casual assumptions that used to be made.
:51:05. > :51:09.It is all about educating our youngsters.
:51:10. > :51:14.Do you know about that feeling he is talking about? Of course, as a
:51:14. > :51:18.human being we have... Moments. don't extend our feelings to action
:51:19. > :51:23.when you do that becomes wrong or that could be right. I would like
:51:23. > :51:29.to say if we educate our children from the day they are born that the
:51:29. > :51:33.opposite sex are to be treated with dignity and honour and and respect
:51:33. > :51:38.and they are equal like you are, don't advance on anybody without
:51:38. > :51:48.their consent. Our society would be much better. Where we are going
:51:48. > :51:48.
:51:48. > :51:54.wrong... You talk about education and you back it up more chemical
:51:54. > :51:57.thesis. The chemical argument and what you said... Alison, has it
:51:57. > :52:06.ever happened to you? Has it happened to you? I got pinched on
:52:06. > :52:08.the back side in the lift one time. Not this morning?
:52:08. > :52:11.LAUGHTER Well, I have to say I was younger
:52:11. > :52:14.in those days with no white hair! But if it was happening now, I
:52:14. > :52:21.would say something in a loud voice. Similarly if you get the wandering
:52:21. > :52:26.hand. You would push them away. You are able to say that.
:52:26. > :52:36.We have got to teach our children what is right in behaviour for boys
:52:36. > :52:39.
:52:39. > :52:45.and girls and we don't do that. And the girls must be able to say no.
:52:45. > :52:52.The biggest influence on our children's mind is pornography and
:52:52. > :52:56.thooer -- these are damaging healthy images that we have on the
:52:56. > :53:02.opposite sex. Free mixing is segregation between
:53:02. > :53:12.men and women in the public arena. Is this free mixing? This is a type
:53:12. > :53:14.
:53:14. > :53:20.of free mixing. Let me just say that education is part of the
:53:20. > :53:24.solution. Give us examples of free mixing? A man and woman without any
:53:24. > :53:28.purpose to make together in the public arena, that is not something
:53:28. > :53:32.that's allowed in Islam. If you allow me to make this point. We
:53:32. > :53:36.need to go back to a divine values and moral values. We live in a
:53:36. > :53:40.society, I think some of the people are... Are you finning it
:53:40. > :53:47.problematic -- finding it problematic being in a room with
:53:47. > :53:54.all these women? I am tempted to give my view. Can I just say if we
:53:54. > :53:58.got alcohol or pornography, we would have a society where people
:53:58. > :54:02.feel more inclined towards treating people as human beings as opposed
:54:02. > :54:07.to sex objects. Men need to take responsibility. I
:54:07. > :54:14.have got a daughter and twin boys and my job here is to teach the
:54:14. > :54:18.twin boys how to react towards women. Not to teach my daughter...
:54:18. > :54:23.It is about humans sensing what is OK for other humans and we need to
:54:23. > :54:27.be in tune with that and you should as an intelligent being you should
:54:27. > :54:32.sense when someone is not comfortable and that's when you
:54:32. > :54:37.should back off. You should sense when somebody is
:54:37. > :54:42.not comfortable? We see this a lot in the media when things come with
:54:42. > :54:46.women, we see this reductionist way of talk being it it where we start
:54:46. > :54:53.saying, "How should women react? What should women do?" In the same
:54:53. > :54:58.breath we say, "Why are women going in out in short skirts? Rather than
:54:58. > :55:02.saying, "Men shouldn't rape.". Hindu, I see the divine within
:55:02. > :55:07.every person. Whether that's a Muslim boy or a Muslim girl or a
:55:07. > :55:11.Hindu girl or a Hindu boy and I should be able to chune kate with
:55:11. > :55:18.those -- communicate with those people. I went to a wedding, I was
:55:18. > :55:22.sat on the table and three three three strick Muslims got up -- --
:55:23. > :55:27.strict Muslims got up from the dinner table and walked away. That
:55:27. > :55:36.presumes that they see the female as an object of sex. I couldn't
:55:36. > :55:43.agree with that. That's not the the case... The reason why? The reason
:55:43. > :55:49.there is segregation for the men and women and people are thinking
:55:49. > :55:59.about segregation. There are places where segregation... Look at the
:55:59. > :55:59.
:55:59. > :56:06.stats on mixed schools. My last point is an important point. Please
:56:06. > :56:11.not make this about men abusing women and there are women abusing
:56:11. > :56:18.men men as well The evidence is most sexual harassment is about men
:56:18. > :56:27.being abusive towards women. That's what the evidence is. Vastly more.
:56:27. > :56:31.I think where the difference, we are coming from a prospective of
:56:31. > :56:35.women's equality. It is really important. There is a lot of abuse
:56:35. > :56:41.of women and girls online on social media. It is abusive and silencing
:56:41. > :56:44.and we need to be creating a much more healthy and respectful society
:56:44. > :56:51.and talking, schools need to be talking to young people, boys in
:56:51. > :56:55.particular, about respect for girls. A quick point. If we are talking
:56:55. > :56:58.about advances, men tend to be the ones who do make the advance
:56:58. > :57:04.towards women and it is not generally the other way around.
:57:04. > :57:10.I heard you in the background if I may come on that point. I pointed
:57:10. > :57:17.out that this is about mainly women being abused as it were, but that's
:57:17. > :57:22.in terms of the reported cases and a lot of men don't report cases of
:57:22. > :57:24.unwanted... It is not about glorifying bad behaviour and I am
:57:24. > :57:33.seeing increasingly from our television television programmes
:57:33. > :57:38.and from our celebrity celebrity that it is acceptable and it is not
:57:38. > :57:42.acceptable. That's what we need to say. Women are as equal as men and
:57:42. > :57:51.must be treated respectfully with honour and dignity.
:57:51. > :57:56.You don't buy his idea to end free mixing? What Islam says...
:57:56. > :57:59.understood a lot. It is a man and woman sitting with one another or
:57:59. > :58:04.interacting if they are physically involved or touching one another,
:58:04. > :58:10.there is a lot of flirtation going on, what what Islam says it opens
:58:10. > :58:14.up doors for abuse. What Islam, it is clear, a man and woman in a