:00:09. > :00:29.Today, immigration, midlife motherhood and sin.
:00:30. > :00:34.Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell, welcome to a new series of The Big
:00:35. > :00:39.Questions. Today we're live from Queen Mary University of London.
:00:40. > :00:44.Welcome, everyone, to The Big Questions.
:00:45. > :00:48.On Wednesday, the press staked out the airports, and the MPs Keith Vaz
:00:49. > :00:52.and Mark Reckless, who's with us today, were on hand too, all because
:00:53. > :00:59.Britain had been told to expect a deluge of immigrants from Romania
:01:00. > :01:04.and Bulgaria on New Year's Day. So far it's been more of a trickle. But
:01:05. > :01:08.immigration has been on the rise and it's now being presented as a major
:01:09. > :01:12.threat by many politicians and newspapers, from left to right. But
:01:13. > :01:17.Jesus commanded his followers to, "Love thy Neighbour as thyself".
:01:18. > :01:28.Does love thy neighbour mean welcoming immigrants?
:01:29. > :01:31.Peter Hitchens, you are a practising Christian. You should abide by
:01:32. > :01:39.that, love thy neighbour, including those from Romania and Bulgaria? Of
:01:40. > :01:44.course it does. Nobody should treat a fellow creature badly. That is
:01:45. > :01:48.basic to everything we think or do or say. But the people coping with
:01:49. > :01:52.immigration do not tend to be the ones taking decisions to allow
:01:53. > :01:58.migrants to come here. The people who are saying, come, you are
:01:59. > :02:03.welcome, as those who live far away from the areas which will be
:02:04. > :02:10.overcrowded, from GP surgeries to schools where there will be no
:02:11. > :02:17.places. And so for them to say, you must love your neighbour while we
:02:18. > :02:20.sit in our safe jobs and our council housing areas not being affected, is
:02:21. > :02:28.quite different from saying, I must love my neighbour. What does it mean
:02:29. > :02:34.in the context of immigration? It means welcome. It means looking
:02:35. > :02:40.after. Peter has made the case about the long queues at the doctors, at
:02:41. > :02:45.the school gates etc. They are down to politicians mismanaging the
:02:46. > :02:50.investment. Migrants make a net contribution. Down my road,
:02:51. > :02:54.Streatham high road, a couple of delicatessens have opened up. They
:02:55. > :03:01.will pay taxes. Their children go to the local schools because they are
:03:02. > :03:04.paying the taxes. There are other issues apart from economics, unless
:03:05. > :03:09.you are a Thatcherite who believes that money is the only thing that
:03:10. > :03:13.matters. One of the problems about loving your neighbours is it is
:03:14. > :03:17.harder to love your neighbour if you don't share a language or a culture,
:03:18. > :03:23.if you don't share a sense of humour. If you don't share any legal
:03:24. > :03:26.system. It is difficult. How do you know you don't share a sense of
:03:27. > :03:31.humour with the Romanian and Bulgarian 's? I am a widely
:03:32. > :03:36.travelled person, so I know the difference between this country and
:03:37. > :03:39.other countries. There are great differences between their country
:03:40. > :03:48.and I was partly because they lived for years under commenters. Of
:03:49. > :03:51.course there are challenges. There are challenges from an ageing
:03:52. > :03:57.population. It does not mean that you bump your old people off. You
:03:58. > :04:03.engage with those challenges. Be smug people who say there are no
:04:04. > :04:10.problem about this... Nobody is saying there are not challenges. The
:04:11. > :04:15.smoke people who are complacent about this are not those who live
:04:16. > :04:20.with it. -- the smug people. Nor are they those whose jobs are affected.
:04:21. > :04:27.You will not find many Polish MPs, Polish media figures, Polish civil
:04:28. > :04:31.servants, actors, you will not find that the jobs being done by the
:04:32. > :04:37.elite are the ones I affected by the influx of people from outside who
:04:38. > :04:43.are prepared to work for less. Who are prepared to live in overcrowded
:04:44. > :04:48.conditions. Owen Jones, has mass immigration being good for the UK?
:04:49. > :04:53.In lots of ways, of course it has. The NHS is propped up by
:04:54. > :04:57.immigrants. 30% of doctors are foreign-born. 40% of our nurses.
:04:58. > :05:02.Many of us may have been brought into the world by Pakistani nurses.
:05:03. > :05:07.You may have been tended by Indian doctors. What infuriates me about
:05:08. > :05:10.this debate is the way that, since the bankers plunged this country and
:05:11. > :05:14.the rest of the world into the economic disaster it has suffered
:05:15. > :05:18.since, there has been a cynical and concerted attempt to pass the blame
:05:19. > :05:22.for all the social ills of this country away from those responsible
:05:23. > :05:30.at the top to people's neighbours down the street. Immigrants. You say
:05:31. > :05:33.we should be welcoming. I have no idea if you are a practising
:05:34. > :05:43.Christian or not. I am not a believer. Tony Benn once said that
:05:44. > :05:48.he listened closely to the message of Jesus, love thy neighbour. But if
:05:49. > :05:53.it does mean welcoming thy neighbour under all circumstances, who would
:05:54. > :05:58.you not letting? This is the problem with this debate. It is a specific
:05:59. > :06:02.question. Do you draw the line anywhere? Where would I draw the
:06:03. > :06:06.line? The point we have to discuss as a country is why we have the
:06:07. > :06:12.social problems we have. Is it to do with immigrants? There are
:06:13. > :06:16.challenges. This is so crucial. There are massive problems in this
:06:17. > :06:20.country. Take the housing crisis. I bet there are people in this
:06:21. > :06:26.audience, people watching, who are stuck on a council housing waiting
:06:27. > :06:29.list. 5 million people are stuck on council housing waiting lists. That
:06:30. > :06:34.is not the fault of the immigrants. It is the fold of politicians who
:06:35. > :06:43.refused to let councils have the power. This is such a strawman
:06:44. > :06:47.argument. Nobody is saying it is the fault of the individual immigrants.
:06:48. > :06:52.Nobody blames people coming here seeking to improve their lives. It
:06:53. > :06:55.would be what many of us would do in the same circumstances. It is not a
:06:56. > :06:58.question of blaming the immigrants. It is a question of blaming the
:06:59. > :07:04.politicians who, particularly under Labour, opened the gates in this
:07:05. > :07:13.country in a way which is unprecedented. Peter, I want to
:07:14. > :07:16.bring Mark reckless. They have changed the labour market and the
:07:17. > :07:24.housing market. Nor is it saying, and I have two say this, because it
:07:25. > :07:27.is probably the last time I will get to say this, of course you can blame
:07:28. > :07:31.the problems of this country on many different things. We are discussing
:07:32. > :07:36.immigration. If you want to discuss bankers, I agree with you on a lot
:07:37. > :07:39.of what you say. But this particular issue is about immigration. You
:07:40. > :07:44.cannot say the problems caused by immigration at the same as those
:07:45. > :07:50.caused by bankers. Mark reckless, you were at Luton airport. Love thy
:07:51. > :07:54.neighbour, would Jesus have been with you at Luton airport? Would he
:07:55. > :07:58.have stopped people coming in at Dover? Mass immigration is something
:07:59. > :08:05.he would have encouraged. I'm not sure he would. I hope we can draw
:08:06. > :08:10.the distinction between welcoming individuals and policy is a country.
:08:11. > :08:13.Has mass immigration mingled for this country? I'm not sure it
:08:14. > :08:17.happens, at least not in the mass numbers you are talking about. 4
:08:18. > :08:22.million people came into this country under Labour government. My
:08:23. > :08:28.government promised, and I stood for election on the promise to cut the
:08:29. > :08:32.number of immigrants coming in... I want to keep that promise to the
:08:33. > :08:37.electorate. If we just let in large numbers of people from Bulgaria and
:08:38. > :08:44.Romania, who can very quickly become eligible for social housing, get tax
:08:45. > :08:50.benefits and can send child benefit from this country back to children
:08:51. > :08:55.at school in Rumania... I have been campaigning on that for two years.
:08:56. > :09:01.If at last we're going to see action, I am delighted. You came in
:09:02. > :09:06.a promise -- on a promise of having a go at the migrants. You are
:09:07. > :09:17.already laying the blame at the door of the migrants. Instead of dealing
:09:18. > :09:22.with the underlying problems. It is absurd to suggest you can have
:09:23. > :09:25.controlled system of immigration without being decent and nice and
:09:26. > :09:32.all the things you should be to those who are coming in. I lived in
:09:33. > :09:39.Rumania for three years in the days of Ceausescu. A lot of the
:09:40. > :09:44.conditions that pertain then, still apply now. Of course people will
:09:45. > :09:50.come here. What we are talking about is the scale. It is silly to suggest
:09:51. > :10:00.that when you have something like one third of the families in this
:10:01. > :10:07.country, that is foolish. Of course, immigration is good and we should
:10:08. > :10:12.have controlled immigration. Are you worried about the cultural
:10:13. > :10:21.challenges, which I think has been hinted at by Peter? Something like
:10:22. > :10:25.700,000 children in this country speak 300 languages between them. We
:10:26. > :10:30.were talking earlier that the tribalism that we should be getting
:10:31. > :10:35.away from. Unfortunately, when you get migration taking place at this
:10:36. > :10:40.sort of rate, that is inevitably what it is going to lead to, little
:10:41. > :10:47.groups of people living within our society. That is the last thing we
:10:48. > :10:51.want. Culture is learning. We keep going on about how they don't speak
:10:52. > :10:57.our language. We go to Spain. We don't speak the language there. We
:10:58. > :11:03.gather in our own little group and eat fish and chips etc. We speak
:11:04. > :11:07.English. The reality is, of course we need to have some level of
:11:08. > :11:11.control. At the debate we are seeing, not necessarily this debate
:11:12. > :11:15.but the debate we are seeing generally in society, is a debate
:11:16. > :11:23.that actually blames the migrant. People have always moved. We have
:11:24. > :11:26.always moved for economic reasons. Governments around the world,
:11:27. > :11:32.whether they be in Europe or on a much wider scale, they do need is to
:11:33. > :11:35.create the types of economy around the world so that people will want
:11:36. > :11:43.to stay where they are and enjoy their lives. If you are going to
:11:44. > :11:47.repeat his accusation that those of us worried about large-scale mass
:11:48. > :11:51.immigration blaming the migrants, come up with one instance of anybody
:11:52. > :11:57.ever having done so? I haven't done so, he hasn't done so. It is a
:11:58. > :12:01.simple false accusation repeatedly made that this is something to do
:12:02. > :12:07.with a loathing or hatred of migrants. It has nothing to do with
:12:08. > :12:17.that at all. I am going to come to the audience.
:12:18. > :12:24.We will get own's response. Nobody has accused you of loathing hating
:12:25. > :12:28.immigrants. Who is responsible what is responsible for the real social
:12:29. > :12:34.problems this country has? For example, low wages. People's pay
:12:35. > :12:41.packet in this country have been shrinking for ten years. The reason
:12:42. > :12:45.we have fallen wages in this country is because we have weak trade unions
:12:46. > :12:52.which cannot stand the ground and get a good slice of pie. It is a
:12:53. > :12:57.minimum wage. It is the form of globalisation we have got. And it is
:12:58. > :13:05.to do with austerity. I am actually coming up with proposals here. Let's
:13:06. > :13:09.have a living wage, let's stop employers, sorry, force employers,
:13:10. > :13:16.to hire people on the same terms and conditions. Stronger trade unions
:13:17. > :13:25.which camera present workers. Rather than an agenda of despair and
:13:26. > :13:33.blaming people. People, please! -- Peter. He says quite clearly nobody
:13:34. > :13:38.is blaming the migrants. He has said it quite clearly from the beginning
:13:39. > :13:40.of the programme. The benefits of immigration are there to see in
:13:41. > :13:46.terms of the National Health Service and London transport, and
:13:47. > :13:51.organisations like that. A number of speakers are overlooking the fact
:13:52. > :14:03.that Britain is a signatory to the European Union. We have got the
:14:04. > :14:06.wrist -- facility of reciprocating moving around Europe. It is legal
:14:07. > :14:14.immigration. We are not talking about illegal immigration. Many
:14:15. > :14:25.people have used that facility. Instead of scaremongering and
:14:26. > :14:29.prodding forward bogus arguments. Youth unemployment is right at the
:14:30. > :14:35.moment, so why do we welcome people to a country that still has
:14:36. > :14:39.problems? With the issues in our country today, like the amount of
:14:40. > :14:44.benefits culture and the skills that people bring with them, that is far
:14:45. > :14:49.more beneficial than the negative harm that is brought in the short
:14:50. > :14:56.term. Mark Reckless? A fair couple of points for you. George Osborne is
:14:57. > :15:02.for ever emphasising the fact that there are hard-working families, but
:15:03. > :15:08.perhaps next all the blinds drawn and those people, he said, are
:15:09. > :15:13.feckless and lazy and unwilling to work. The point is, people who come
:15:14. > :15:20.here are desperate to work. They want to work. Do you not acknowledge
:15:21. > :15:23.that? Yes, I do, and I think it's difficult for young people in my
:15:24. > :15:28.constituency who are struggling to get a job or move up the career
:15:29. > :15:36.ladder if employers are able to import workers. So they are not
:15:37. > :15:40.feckless? The people coming from Bulgaria and Romania are desperate
:15:41. > :15:45.to work, and will work for lower wages, and will work long and hard
:15:46. > :15:49.because of the comparison to the home country. The point George
:15:50. > :15:53.Osborne makes, there is a comparison with immigration. In order to
:15:54. > :15:56.sustain the welfare state, where people paying, what they want to
:15:57. > :16:02.feel is that they can also benefit from that, and those who receive
:16:03. > :16:07.from it are those who deserve to, and they can see themselves doing
:16:08. > :16:11.that if they have to fall on hard times. But if money is going to
:16:12. > :16:17.people who won't work, and people who are coming from overseas who do
:16:18. > :16:21.work hard but are still eligible for top ups and tax credits, people will
:16:22. > :16:33.question the whole basis of the welfare state. Do you say that the
:16:34. > :16:39.EU migrants are making more for the country than they are taking out.
:16:40. > :16:43.That is one argument, and it is one survey. It is often commuter
:16:44. > :16:47.migration, people who take large amounts of money out of the country
:16:48. > :16:50.and send it back to their family at home, and they don't come here to
:16:51. > :16:54.stay for the long term, but think about how they can make the most
:16:55. > :17:01.money, quickly and take it back home. These people have paid into a
:17:02. > :17:08.pension they will never claim. Jonathan Bartley, is this right
:17:09. > :17:16.about people taking the money and going home? It is not the reality.
:17:17. > :17:21.These arguments I have heard for three or four decades. When the
:17:22. > :17:25.Asian community came to the UK, they set up an entrepreneurial culture
:17:26. > :17:29.and we were faced with a lot of racism and hostility, the thought we
:17:30. > :17:33.were taking jobs away. We were economic migrants and we came here
:17:34. > :17:40.to have a better future. And within that hardship a lot of people coming
:17:41. > :17:43.with ?3 in their pocket became global entrepreneurs. A lot of the
:17:44. > :17:49.entrepreneurs in this country are my grits and have contributed to the
:17:50. > :23:31.plc of the UK -- are migrants. There is an awful lot we have contributed.
:23:32. > :23:38.50s? Who is to say where you draw the line, but if you get into your
:23:39. > :23:42.50s and you are having children, you will be in your 70s when they are in
:23:43. > :23:53.their early 20s. This is not ideal. My fundamental point is, for
:23:54. > :23:59.goodness sake, can't we babies for women who are biologically ready for
:24:00. > :24:04.them. I am an older mother, and I recently had a baby. I am 42, but I
:24:05. > :24:08.think the main issue for me and women of my generation has been
:24:09. > :24:15.finding a partner at the age which is biologically ideal to have a
:24:16. > :24:22.baby, perhaps your late or mid-20s. It takes a long time to meet Mr
:24:23. > :24:29.Right? It did for me. Did you kiss a lot of frogs? Not a lot, honey. One
:24:30. > :24:35.thing I thought was shocking was a recent study said 70% of women over
:24:36. > :24:40.50 disapprove of women of 40 having a baby. These are the same women who
:24:41. > :24:43.raised a generation of young men who are unwilling, unable and
:24:44. > :24:49.uninterested in commitment until they get to around 40 or 42, and
:24:50. > :24:54.then they want a 26. The women of my generation in their late 30s or
:24:55. > :24:59.early 40s are pummelled by the media for leaving it too late, being
:25:00. > :25:02.selfish, and these women have genuinely been seeking an
:25:03. > :25:08.appropriate partner for a decade or longer and would like nothing more
:25:09. > :25:10.than to have a baby when it is biologically ideal but have been
:25:11. > :25:14.unable to find a partner who was willing and able, and by the time
:25:15. > :25:20.those guys get round to it, they no longer want women of their age. They
:25:21. > :25:27.want to be rich, established. Tyler wants to come in. I understand what
:25:28. > :25:32.you are saying, but what we are missing out from the discussion is
:25:33. > :25:39.the foundation of love and peace. I don't think age is necessarily a big
:25:40. > :25:42.factor. There are many children in the care system, the foster care
:25:43. > :25:49.system and I'm sure they are not looking back saying, when was I
:25:50. > :25:58.born? We need to take the tradition of the Jewish culture perhaps which
:25:59. > :26:01.has a fantastic tradition on Friday, when they lay their hands on their
:26:02. > :26:09.child and speak blessing on to the child. So if it is a male child they
:26:10. > :26:16.will say something like, may the blessing of Africa and beyond you,
:26:17. > :26:22.and if it is the daughter, made the blessing of Rachel beyond you. --
:26:23. > :26:27.Ephraim. -- be on you. It is important we focus on the love and
:26:28. > :26:41.the blessing. That is the important thing. I see Mark Reckless wants to
:26:42. > :26:44.coming, as do many people. We noticed you asked the first question
:26:45. > :26:55.to a man, which is obviously significant. What does it signify?
:26:56. > :26:59.Is being an older parents selfish. Statistically men die for years
:27:00. > :27:03.before women, so the idea women are being selfish is neither here nor
:27:04. > :27:08.there. My experience of running a club is that as a woman you try to
:27:09. > :27:13.do anything else, go to work, go out for the evening, have some time with
:27:14. > :27:15.your friends, and somebody is queueing up to make you feel guilty.
:27:16. > :27:24.The second thing you should have mentioned is that is that -- is that
:27:25. > :27:31.the statistics are conceding. The overall number is still small, 1% up
:27:32. > :27:38.to 4%. A 400% rise. But there has been a steady rise. One thing we can
:27:39. > :27:42.do about this is make adoption easier, which is what I said to my
:27:43. > :27:45.GP. She said older mothers are great, incredibly motivated,
:27:46. > :27:54.committed because they want the baby so much. That is a very good point.
:27:55. > :27:59.Is there a sense, because of medical advances and the nature of society,
:28:00. > :28:04.women are being sold a vision? I am the daughter of journalists. My
:28:05. > :28:07.generation have done something a little disingenuous. We write
:28:08. > :28:13.articles saying that if you are in your 30s and having a great time,
:28:14. > :28:17.and the women in their 30s say they don't need to do it now, I spoke to
:28:18. > :28:21.a male friend and his girlfriend moved in, and he said don't hang
:28:22. > :28:27.around because life is so nice. There is never a good time. The
:28:28. > :28:34.mistake we made was because you might be able to get pregnant, and
:28:35. > :28:38.the fertility is against you, but we can't help that. Biology is not
:28:39. > :28:41.sexist, that is the way it is. Because we can it doesn't mean we
:28:42. > :28:49.should or it is easy. The best favour you can do any woman in this
:28:50. > :28:50.room who is in their 30s in a relationship is to say, get on with
:28:51. > :29:15.it. How relationship is to say, get on with
:29:16. > :29:18.and 33,000 of them were over 40. Can you put them in a room and tell them
:29:19. > :29:24.they are selfish? It's completely unnecessary and judgemental. It is
:29:25. > :29:30.not just about choosing, some women do not have a choice to choose to
:29:31. > :29:35.give birth over 40, it actually just happens to them. They may have had
:29:36. > :29:40.an illness, breast cancer, frozen eggs, and you may not have the
:29:41. > :29:45.choice. Also there is the fertility issue as well is not meeting the
:29:46. > :29:50.right man. You may not have chosen. I was an older mother, but I think
:29:51. > :29:59.I'd turned out to be as good as others, and even though there are
:30:00. > :30:04.risks. There are risks but if you put in the correct maternity pathway
:30:05. > :30:09.with moral midwives, and give one to one care in Labour, we will have
:30:10. > :30:14.lots of better outcomes. It is important we get the maternity pads
:30:15. > :30:21.geared up for the women who are older because they deserve it. Mark,
:30:22. > :30:27.I have not forgotten you. Let me ask you a question. I think it was
:30:28. > :30:36.Stephanie who hinted at it. There are challenges if you are a mother
:30:37. > :30:40.at 45 and you have a 15-year-old. If you have a 15-year-old when you are
:30:41. > :30:45.60, perhaps no grandparents. They may be feeling at the school gates
:30:46. > :30:49.that you are too old. You don't buy that? I don't buy that. I'm
:30:50. > :30:52.encouraged by the thought that women are now thinking about when they
:30:53. > :30:55.have their children and actually planning. We need to be encouraging
:30:56. > :31:02.more women, more parents, to think about, can I afford a child? When
:31:03. > :31:06.should we have a child? Instead of having children willy-nilly. I am
:31:07. > :31:08.very encouraged that women in particular are taking control and
:31:09. > :31:15.saying they are going to wait. Please, do not rush out and have sex
:31:16. > :31:23.and have babies! Are you referring to Stephanie here? ! The point is
:31:24. > :31:27.what we have done slightly, and I think the media is very responsible,
:31:28. > :31:36.is to promote this idea that we can have it all, the beast with the
:31:37. > :31:40.CEO's head on and exhausted body. You can have it all if you get up
:31:41. > :31:45.that bit earlier and be magical and marvellous. Those celebrity mothers
:31:46. > :31:53.who say they are so fulfilled, have personal assistants, nannies,
:31:54. > :32:01.housekeepers... I am not thinking about celebrities. I'm talking about
:32:02. > :32:08.ordinary women. The thought about, you are going to die, you are going
:32:09. > :32:14.to be old and wrinkly at the school gates, it takes a village to grow a
:32:15. > :32:21.child. There will be no grandparents in the village. People in their 30s
:32:22. > :32:25.are writing articles! I agree with you completely about the sense that
:32:26. > :32:30.we put out this image that you can have it all. At the same time I
:32:31. > :32:33.would argue that there is just as strong message condemning and
:32:34. > :32:37.judging women who are not having their babies earlier, and calling
:32:38. > :32:43.them selfish career obsessed. These poor women are out there trying to
:32:44. > :32:46.meet the right guy, trying to get this organised, seeing fertility
:32:47. > :32:54.experts and all we do is bash them over the head. Audience? Lady at the
:32:55. > :33:00.back. Good morning. With regard to the
:33:01. > :33:07.earlier comment, I absolutely agree. Women having babies over 40, I think
:33:08. > :33:17.it is selfish of us to actually George whether women have babies. I
:33:18. > :33:23.have just had my baby. She is two years old today. I was 47 and three
:33:24. > :33:27.quarters when she was born. I think having a baby is a joyful decision.
:33:28. > :33:31.It was not something when I was very young that I planned to have a baby
:33:32. > :33:35.when I was 47. I hoped I would have a baby when I was 29. Life
:33:36. > :33:39.circumstance did not work out that way. I embarked on IVF, I knew it
:33:40. > :33:45.was great to be a mass of thing for me. I did a lot to prepare myself.
:33:46. > :33:50.What Jackie said about the support and the midwifery is vital. People
:33:51. > :33:54.who do embark on pregnancy when they are older need to take it seriously
:33:55. > :33:57.and that they need to make sure that they are as healthy as they can be,
:33:58. > :34:03.make sure they are eating correctly, not chain-smoking. It is very much
:34:04. > :34:16.like people who adopt. They are extra motivated to have children and
:34:17. > :34:22.make wonderful parents. Absolutely. As an older mother, you have got a
:34:23. > :34:27.lot of life skills. Positive parenting is really important. Older
:34:28. > :34:32.mothers do statistically become good mothers. Mark reckless, you have
:34:33. > :34:37.been trying to get in for ages. An elected member of the mother of
:34:38. > :34:48.Parliament? My wife has just had our second baby. Her age is a state
:34:49. > :34:52.secret. When was she born? ! What worries me about this debate is that
:34:53. > :34:57.the number of people are saying that women have a choice to have babies
:34:58. > :35:02.late into their 40s, and some do. Most do not. I would say to women
:35:03. > :35:07.watching this programme in their mid-30s, if they want to have a
:35:08. > :35:11.baby, they need to get on with it. Because if people leave it, most of
:35:12. > :35:21.them will not be able to have a baby when they're older. It has a great
:35:22. > :35:24.deal to do with me if this programme gives women the impression that they
:35:25. > :35:30.will be able to choose to have women -- babies in their 40s. Most will
:35:31. > :35:33.not. Some can. That is how fertility works. It is really important that
:35:34. > :35:37.women understand that and do not assume they can have babies in their
:35:38. > :35:43.40s because, for most people, IVF does not work. Most women in their
:35:44. > :35:47.40s will not be able to have a baby when they wanted because that is how
:35:48. > :35:56.it works. We need to understand that. Oliver James? Most of the
:35:57. > :36:01.problem is we have men in skirts, sex and the city form of feminism.
:36:02. > :36:08.The feminism I knew at University involved main changing. The feminism
:36:09. > :36:11.we have in America and England is a feminism which is all about women
:36:12. > :36:16.becoming more and more like men. It is competitive and aggressive.
:36:17. > :36:20.During their 20s they behave like men and drink and smoke and have sex
:36:21. > :36:25.as much as men. They go through their 20s and they get to their 30s
:36:26. > :36:31.and biology is completely ignored. The tragedy is that in the 1950s,
:36:32. > :36:35.many aspirations were much lower. That was actually a good thing in
:36:36. > :36:39.terms of what you expected. We now plays such a heavy load on what we
:36:40. > :36:43.get from the relationship with our partner. The proportion of women in
:36:44. > :36:49.the 1950s who said they were paid to marry someone was much higher.
:36:50. > :36:53.Tragically, in the period of history when divorce went up, when
:36:54. > :36:56.relationships or more likely to collapse, women started to place a
:36:57. > :37:02.higher and higher premium on loving their man. What about men? What
:37:03. > :37:15.about older fathers? How old were you when you had your youngest? I
:37:16. > :37:20.was 47. My dad had me at 51 and it was fantastic. When I was a
:37:21. > :37:24.teenager, he was around. We had quality time together. He lived
:37:25. > :37:29.until he was 91. Died the year before last. I really treasure that
:37:30. > :37:33.time we have together. There comes a point when you want to be away from
:37:34. > :37:38.your parents. Fortunately, we crossed over. I really value that
:37:39. > :37:43.time. It was fantastic. I would just take issue with the point made at
:37:44. > :37:48.the beginning about birth defects and about genetics. I also have a
:37:49. > :37:53.disabled child. If anybody in any way devalue my son because he has
:37:54. > :37:56.aided -- disability, I think that is incredibly offensive to him, it is
:37:57. > :38:02.incredibly offensive to other people. It should never be in
:38:03. > :38:06.arguing against having babies late that there may be birth defects. On
:38:07. > :38:18.which point we will end. It deserves another round of applause.
:38:19. > :38:20.You can join this morning's debate by logging onto the website and
:38:21. > :38:27.following the link to the online discussion. You can tweet. Tell us
:38:28. > :38:39.what you think of our last programme as well, does society need send? --
:38:40. > :38:44.last issue. We are recruiting audiences for Salford on January the
:38:45. > :38:53.19th, Bishop Stortford on February the 2nd and Leicester on the ninth.
:38:54. > :38:57.Well, did you make any New Year resolutions? The turn of the years
:38:58. > :39:01.when many of us try to turn over a new leaf, to reform, to stop being
:39:02. > :39:07.sinners. Lost, sloths and Raff are hard enough. What would happen to
:39:08. > :39:14.the economy if we gave up greed, gluttony, envy and pride? Does
:39:15. > :39:25.society need send? Where is Stewart? Hello, Stuart. Yes, greed is
:39:26. > :39:30.essential and sin, they are just essential to how society works. I
:39:31. > :39:33.can see Alan gearing up to Temme to ten metre threads. I have a real
:39:34. > :39:41.issue with socialism all over the world. Greed is what drives society
:39:42. > :39:45.forward. It links with immigration. I get up at six every morning not
:39:46. > :39:49.because I want to but because I have a desire to better myself and the
:39:50. > :39:56.children that I may one day have, if I can find a victim to have them for
:39:57. > :40:03.me! You have a successful business that turned over 3 million last
:40:04. > :40:10.year. ?3 million is nothing. Why is that sin? I don't equate that with
:40:11. > :40:16.greed at all. You do have to be quite ruthless. Oh and's trade
:40:17. > :40:27.unionist debate... Stop picking on Owen! Are you proud of what you have
:40:28. > :40:38.achieved? I am very proud. You have got a lot of sports cars and so
:40:39. > :40:41.forth? Absolutely. Three. Why? Unfortunately, women are not
:40:42. > :40:49.attracted to cars and it has taken me 25 years to realise that! Peter
:40:50. > :40:54.Hitchens, what do you think about this? Greed is part of capitalism
:40:55. > :41:01.and is an impetus for success. Does not have to be -- greed. The desire
:41:02. > :41:06.to be the best at what you can be, if that brings you riches... Exactly
:41:07. > :41:09.what we do not need is more greed and more dishonesty and more sin.
:41:10. > :41:14.That is what has got us into the mess that we are in. What is the
:41:15. > :41:19.banking collapse except the absolute failure on the part of many people
:41:20. > :41:23.to behave in honest, wise, thrifty, provident ways in which they ought
:41:24. > :41:28.to have done? It is a straightforward episode of large
:41:29. > :41:32.scale sin and the consequences of it. As some any of the other things
:41:33. > :41:38.wrong with our society. There is no reason to have evil motives or to
:41:39. > :41:42.which to do wicked things if you want to achieve much in our
:41:43. > :41:49.society. On the contrary, you will achieve more if you don't. You have
:41:50. > :41:54.only got to look at those who achieved. If I parked my car in
:41:55. > :41:59.certain parts of London, it would be spat in. That is because people look
:42:00. > :42:07.down on achievers. It is ruthless capitalism which enables me to
:42:08. > :42:16.hire... We are told not to covet our neighbour's goods. Honestly, if we
:42:17. > :42:21.cannot trust our neighbours to be honest with us and to be straight
:42:22. > :42:24.with us, and if we can't trust our neighbours to be virtuous, our whole
:42:25. > :42:30.society would break down. Everything we have around us, this building we
:42:31. > :42:44.stand in, it all depends upon trust and honesty. If you covered your
:42:45. > :42:49.neighbour's ass or their BMW, should you say, I'm going to work hard to
:42:50. > :42:53.get one? It is a motivation but is one of the wrong ones. If you have
:42:54. > :43:00.nothing but material goods to hope for. There are many more important
:43:01. > :43:05.things. Owen Jones, you have had two honourable mentions from Stuart so
:43:06. > :43:09.far. I'm not going to spit on his car and I would not encourage
:43:10. > :43:15.others. It is a false argument this. I am not a believer myself. But in
:43:16. > :43:16.terms of wanting people to do the best possible for themselves and
:43:17. > :43:23.their kids, I want people, best possible for themselves and
:43:24. > :43:29.for the first time since the Second World War, the next generation will
:43:30. > :43:32.be poorer than the last. Society is geared for the personal enrichment
:43:33. > :43:36.of a very small number of people at the top while many are struggling.
:43:37. > :43:40.We have a banking collapse were those responsible end up getting off
:43:41. > :43:42.scot-free, while half a million people in the seventh richest
:43:43. > :43:46.country on earth are driven into food banks because we can no longer
:43:47. > :43:53.afford to feed our poorest people. That is the problem. I just heard
:43:54. > :44:01.agreement between Alan Jones and Peter Hitchens. Mark that moment!
:44:02. > :44:06.Bankers is one aspect that, yes, they screwed it up, to be blunt. But
:44:07. > :44:11.without the capitalist system you would not be sat here now. That is
:44:12. > :44:16.the point. Trade unionists are just as responsible for the decline of
:44:17. > :44:21.society. Look at the 1970s. People like you destroyed the British car
:44:22. > :44:27.industry. Well, I destroyed the British car industry! Within the
:44:28. > :44:32.Bible there are no distinctions about sin. Sin is sin and greed is
:44:33. > :44:42.included in that. I am astonished that we have something in common at
:44:43. > :44:51.last. I must dash I am glad to hear it. I hear the young man speaking at
:44:52. > :44:54.the end about how successful he is, and I'm delighted for everyone who
:44:55. > :44:58.does well. I want everybody to be ambitious and do well but if that
:44:59. > :45:05.doing well means you have accumulated so much, and from that
:45:06. > :45:10.you pay your staff a minimal amount, and the waste of money on
:45:11. > :45:22.cars and material things, then that, I'm afraid, is sin. It's good
:45:23. > :45:25.news for the car dealership. Great news for them, but how many cars can
:45:26. > :45:34.we drive at one time? I'm not just picking on your cars. But you could
:45:35. > :45:38.say that is creating jobs. I hope he is creating jobs and sharing his
:45:39. > :45:47.cars. It is whether or not in the creation of jobs we are paying
:45:48. > :45:53.people are living wage. I will edge it towards theology again, you
:45:54. > :46:01.believe all children are born with sin. Yes, you see it in a young
:46:02. > :46:05.child, you can see the selfish nature. Of course you can. When you
:46:06. > :46:09.tell a child, don't do that, they do it. Sometimes they go the opposite
:46:10. > :46:20.way. You can see the disobedience in a child. I am interested in this
:46:21. > :46:26.children thing. I am not condemning children. I'm not saying children
:46:27. > :46:30.will go to hell, but I am saying that sin is something we inherited
:46:31. > :46:37.at the fall, since Adam and Eve ate the apple in the Garden of England
:46:38. > :46:41.-- Eden. With regard to sin as an issue in society, with regards to
:46:42. > :46:48.alcohol-related issues, 33,000 deaths as a result of alcohol. If
:46:49. > :46:57.the Bible says it is a sin, is it a sin? Of course. Do not have a tad
:46:58. > :47:05.too? That is a sin. Do not plant with two types of seed? I'm quoting
:47:06. > :47:16.from the Bible. Do not wear clothes made of two types of material? But
:47:17. > :47:23.what you are trying to do is take it out of context, because the truth
:47:24. > :47:32.is, with regards to the old Testament, which is basically the
:47:33. > :47:37.law of Moses, the law of grace is what Jesus died on the cross for,
:47:38. > :47:41.and we are under the covenant of grace. It is up to you whether you
:47:42. > :47:49.decide to choose and accept the grace, the fact that Jesus had his
:47:50. > :47:54.hands penis and died on the cross. -- had his hands pierced.
:47:55. > :48:05.The point is, where will you go when you die is the question. Where will
:48:06. > :48:09.you go when you die? I will die in a box and become nutrients for
:48:10. > :48:12.caterpillars. When you have society divided amongst religious lines, you
:48:13. > :48:17.are motivated by what you perceive to be a fact in the Bible. That is
:48:18. > :48:21.not my choice of fiction to read, but I don't take anything from the
:48:22. > :48:25.Ten Commandments. I treat others how I wish to be treated, and as for
:48:26. > :48:28.paying your staff, it's a free market. If you don't pay your staff
:48:29. > :48:34.enough they are sufficiently skilled, will go elsewhere. What
:48:35. > :48:44.about the original sin? This thing with children? Sin is what stops is
:48:45. > :48:47.flourishing -- us flourishing. We are being defined in economic and
:48:48. > :48:53.materialistic terms, and I think the Bible offers a more wide view of
:48:54. > :48:56.what is human flourishing. If you look in places like Norway and New
:48:57. > :49:00.Zealand, people are happier and have a greater sense of well-being
:49:01. > :49:03.because they are not pursuing a materialistic, capitalist outlook.
:49:04. > :49:08.They want good health care and education and a good standard of
:49:09. > :49:15.living, good air quality. They want something much richer. They want fun
:49:16. > :49:21.with sport and recreation. Those countries also have less theology.
:49:22. > :49:26.Rosie runs a website that facilitates people who are married
:49:27. > :49:29.to meet other people so they can explore a relationship with another
:49:30. > :49:37.person. While they are still married. I think that would go down
:49:38. > :49:41.as a sin. That is definitely on all of your checklists. It's interesting
:49:42. > :49:47.hearing this debate. So many people have so many different versions and
:49:48. > :49:55.have a vague doctrine with words like lust. It seems this is an
:49:56. > :50:01.outdated set of rules. You don't mind breaking up marriages? There
:50:02. > :50:08.are 2 million lone parents in this country. I was raised by a lone
:50:09. > :50:13.parent, so I have no problem. I am a spokesperson and relationship
:50:14. > :50:22.expert. I guess my vision of the world is one where we have more open
:50:23. > :50:29.polyamory rather than monogamy. Does monogamy not work? We know between
:50:30. > :50:32.40% and 60% of people who are married will eventually cheat on
:50:33. > :50:36.their partner in some way, including kisses at office parties and things
:50:37. > :50:39.like that. We know that monogamy is not really work for everyone and
:50:40. > :50:43.it's important to start asking questions about whether this is the
:50:44. > :50:51.right social framework for relationships. My question to you is
:50:52. > :50:53.do you think it is a good thing or a bad thing? This is the real question
:50:54. > :50:59.here, particularly for the children of the marriages which you so
:51:00. > :51:05.blithely set out to break up. Is this a good thing for the children?
:51:06. > :51:10.As someone who was raised by a single mother, I do, but I'm
:51:11. > :51:14.speaking to lots of people. I asked you if you thought it was good for
:51:15. > :51:17.the children of the marriage that you break up? It's a simple
:51:18. > :51:22.question. Do you think it's good for the children if the marriage breaks
:51:23. > :51:32.up? Do you think that? You are absolutely encouraging it. We are on
:51:33. > :51:38.adultery and monogamy. Does it work, monogamy, Oliver? Yes, it certainly
:51:39. > :51:43.can do, but it depends on the system you are in. The fundamental point I
:51:44. > :51:48.would make about original sin and childhood, childhood is critical but
:51:49. > :51:53.children are not born evil or not evil. Children are very much blank
:51:54. > :52:00.slates. The human genomics project shows that it explains little in how
:52:01. > :52:09.children are different from one another. We think of sin as being
:52:10. > :52:12.bad, but 40% of the prison population were at some point in
:52:13. > :52:16.local authority care. In other words their parenting was not very good
:52:17. > :52:21.and had to be taken over by the state, and 40% of the prison
:52:22. > :52:24.population in local authority care, those key causes of destructive
:52:25. > :52:27.behaviour, whether to others or oneself of the quality of the care
:52:28. > :52:33.you had in your early years combined with living in a shop till you
:52:34. > :52:39.drop, it could be you, credit fuelled consumer junkie society. The
:52:40. > :52:43.combination of society and the affluence of society that we live
:52:44. > :52:50.in, combined with early years is what creates bad behaviour. Stuart
:52:51. > :52:59.confused agreed with aspiration in his original state. You are greedy.
:53:00. > :53:02.You don't seem to understand the difference between greed and
:53:03. > :53:08.aspiration. It is one thing to aspire, it's another thing to be
:53:09. > :53:14.greedy. You wanted an explanation as to why you believe children are
:53:15. > :53:22.selfish. My point is that our human nature is corrupted when we are
:53:23. > :53:31.born. Is it? Yes, we are born with original sin. Humans are very
:53:32. > :53:34.malleable and it depends on the environment in which we brought up,
:53:35. > :53:39.and the reasons we different so much -- differ so much, if you brought up
:53:40. > :53:47.in a loving household, you're likely to do better in later life. Let he
:53:48. > :53:51.who is without sin cast the first stone, and relationships don't need
:53:52. > :53:55.a website to break up, and the reasons some break-up is for good
:53:56. > :53:59.reason. 1 million people in this country suffer from domestic
:54:00. > :54:04.violence. Do I want to keep those relationships together, I don't. I
:54:05. > :54:07.think they should -- break-up in many cases, but what's important for
:54:08. > :54:13.the child is to have a loving household. It doesn't matter if they
:54:14. > :54:17.are lone parents, gave parents, if there are three of them bringing up
:54:18. > :54:27.the child, as long as they are in a loving household, none of us should
:54:28. > :54:31.have a problem with that. I'd like to stress the fact that a lot of
:54:32. > :54:35.people on the website are not having affairs. They want to look at their
:54:36. > :54:40.options and they want to explore the idea of flirting with somebody who
:54:41. > :54:43.is not their partner. I think the problem here is that we are going
:54:44. > :54:52.deeply against human nature, and we know this. We are not naturally
:54:53. > :54:59.monogamous. Basically you are adhering to a little of what you
:55:00. > :55:04.fancy does you good. It's almost a sort of base, animalistic thing you
:55:05. > :55:15.are aiming at. Some animals are monogamous. We need to rise above
:55:16. > :55:18.it. Pray silence for Reverend Rose. We need commitment in
:55:19. > :55:22.relationships, whatever relationships we form, we need
:55:23. > :55:32.commitment. Running around saying I fancy a bit of this or that can only
:55:33. > :55:38.ring disaster. -- bring disaster. Regarding your point about this
:55:39. > :55:45.whole adulterous website which I think is absolutely destructive, and
:55:46. > :56:01.I'm not being personal, by the way. A little bit personal. 152,000 cases
:56:02. > :56:08.of chlamydia in 2010. Peter Hitchens, that is a strong point.
:56:09. > :56:12.What we seem to forget is civilisation is not natural. If we
:56:13. > :56:18.were in a state of nature, unrestrained by any moral code, we
:56:19. > :56:25.would be savage. Things such as peas, Law, education, we take those
:56:26. > :56:31.are granted, but they rose because people observed and accepted moral
:56:32. > :56:34.codes which are sometimes difficult to observe, and based on the actions
:56:35. > :56:43.that are considered wrong and are called sin. That is very interesting
:56:44. > :56:46.because children do have base instincts as defined by Sigmund
:56:47. > :56:50.Freud, and we are repressing it all the time, and I think a lot of
:56:51. > :56:55.people don't necessarily choose to be savages, lots of us do not
:56:56. > :56:59.necessarily want to have an affair. I flirt, I go out, but I don't
:57:00. > :57:05.necessarily always want to do it. What is stopping me is not some
:57:06. > :57:09.rule. I still fancy my husband after 25 years. I am happier now than when
:57:10. > :57:16.I had a lot of men in my life. The big challenge to monogamy is
:57:17. > :57:19.longevity. 100 years ago, half the people in this room would not be
:57:20. > :57:25.here. I would have died in childbirth because the baby's head
:57:26. > :57:27.was too big. What can we do to support people to help them stay
:57:28. > :57:33.married if that is the state they wish to be in? We need something,
:57:34. > :57:38.and I'm not a Christian, but I got married with advice from a vicar who
:57:39. > :57:41.I met and liked about the long path and staying together and
:57:42. > :57:47.friendship. If we all have that support. Relate sake come to us
:57:48. > :57:52.sooner, don't wait till it goes bad. We need more support to stay in the
:57:53. > :57:57.relationships. I am a child of divorced parents, and it is not fun.
:57:58. > :58:02.That has to be the last word. We task -- started talking about sin
:58:03. > :58:06.and we got on to sex. Thank you very much for participating. As always,
:58:07. > :58:10.the debates will continue online and on Twitter. Next week we're back
:58:11. > :58:14.here in East London to debate human rights versus religious rights, so
:58:15. > :58:22.join us then. But for now, it's goodbye and have a great Sunday.
:58:23. > :58:24.Thank you very much for watching.