Episode 10

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:00:08. > :00:14.Today on The Big Questions, standing up to Russia, the right to know

:00:15. > :00:32.about a partner's violent past, and being the child of a fundamentalist.

:00:33. > :00:39.Good morning. I'm Nicky Campbell. Welcome to The Big Questions. Today,

:00:40. > :00:42.we are live from Michaelston Community College in Cardiff.

:00:43. > :00:49.Welcome to our audience and welcome to everybody! Next Sunday, the

:00:50. > :00:52.people of Crimea will vote on whether they want to remain part of

:00:53. > :00:57.the Ukraine or to join Russia. In just two weeks, Ukraine has changed

:00:58. > :01:01.from being a country about to sign and Association agreement with the

:01:02. > :01:04.EU to one which may lose not only Crimea, but also its eastern

:01:05. > :01:09.territories to its powerful neighbour. 20 years ago, the UK, the

:01:10. > :01:14.USA and Russia are all signed an agreement which guaranteed

:01:15. > :01:17.Ukraine's current borders, in return for them giving up nuclear weapons.

:01:18. > :01:22.America has sent fighter jets Poland and is talking tough about economic

:01:23. > :01:27.sanctions. But some commentators have said it is the worst crisis

:01:28. > :01:33.since the end of the Cold War, or since the 1962 Cuban missile crisis,

:01:34. > :01:35.or even since Hitler's annexation of the Sudetenland in 1938. Our

:01:36. > :01:41.government stopped Prince Edward from attending the Paralympics

:01:42. > :01:44.opening ceremony in Sochi. They are thinking about placing visa

:01:45. > :01:47.restrictions on some of the wealthy Russian oligarchs in large parts of

:01:48. > :01:52.London and seizing some of their assets, unless it upsets the City.

:01:53. > :01:56.We heard from William Hague on the Andrew Marr programme that

:01:57. > :02:00.ultimately, energy may be one of the sanctions considered. Is it our

:02:01. > :02:08.moral duty to stand up to Russia? Sir Graham Watson, MEP, you have

:02:09. > :02:13.used those words, 1938, in this context. Explain that? I think it is

:02:14. > :02:18.our moral duty to stand up to Russia. What is happening is

:02:19. > :02:24.equivalent to Hitler's annexation of the Sudetenland in 1938. Putin is

:02:25. > :02:28.trying to exercise what he considers to be his right to intervene

:02:29. > :02:32.militarily in what would once upon a time have been described as

:02:33. > :02:38.Russia's sphere of influence. At the world has moved on. You can't do

:02:39. > :02:42.that. In doing so, Putin is abrogating a number of agreements,

:02:43. > :02:45.not only the Budapest agreement from 1994, but also his commitments to

:02:46. > :02:51.the Council of Europe conventions and so on. We must defend the

:02:52. > :02:58.Ukrainians. Ukraine is a unitary state, and must be defended. Go in?

:02:59. > :03:04.What does that mean? Well, it starts with where we are, what the European

:03:05. > :03:08.Union agreed on Thursday, which was that we have already stopped talks

:03:09. > :03:11.with Russia towards a new EU- Russia agreement and the talks on visa

:03:12. > :03:19.liberalisation. We have said but unless Putin withdraws his troops to

:03:20. > :03:23.basis, we will take targeted sanctions against individual

:03:24. > :03:27.Russians, which is difficult for Putin to bear, because they hold a

:03:28. > :03:32.lot of assets in western Europe and other places. There are lots of very

:03:33. > :03:37.wealthy Russians around. Moreover, the European Union has said that if

:03:38. > :03:41.Russia destabilises Crimea even further, there will be far reaching

:03:42. > :03:47.economic and political consequences. I think it is right not to define

:03:48. > :03:52.that to precisely, but it may have to involve military action. Nobody

:03:53. > :04:03.wants that. Military action? Nobody wants it. With Russia? What are you

:04:04. > :04:06.talking about? This is precisely the question being asked. Can you

:04:07. > :04:11.intervene militarily if you have to? If so, how do you do so? Nobody is

:04:12. > :04:16.arguing that we are going to fight a ground war against Russia? I hope it

:04:17. > :04:18.will not come to that, because I believe we have enough power to

:04:19. > :04:23.bring the Russians to the negotiating table without military

:04:24. > :04:29.action. Professor Geoffrey Pridham, should all cards be on the table?

:04:30. > :04:34.Even military? I agree, that should be the ultimate option. But we

:04:35. > :04:40.should try everything else. There are economic sanctions, and also

:04:41. > :04:43.propaganda. But in's began the towards the West at the moment is

:04:44. > :04:49.pretty hard, and we should respond equally. We need a combination of

:04:50. > :04:54.firmness plus diplomacy. The military action is behind all that.

:04:55. > :04:57.If all else fails, you can never say you will not use the military

:04:58. > :05:02.action, because that gives Putin an extra card to play with. You have

:05:03. > :05:10.some support. Jeremy Corbyn, MP, this is worrying. We have a man who

:05:11. > :05:14.has basically breached international treaties and moved into another

:05:15. > :05:18.country. What my colleague was saying seemed to be a recipe for war

:05:19. > :05:26.and incredibly dangerous. I do not support that. You have more support

:05:27. > :05:29.than they did. I do not support Russian military action, and that

:05:30. > :05:34.does have to be a peace process and the process of demilitarisation of

:05:35. > :05:38.Ukraine and sticking to the original non-nuclear agreement. But the

:05:39. > :05:42.hypocrisy of the West is unbelievable on this. Where was the

:05:43. > :05:45.legality on the war in Iraq? Where was the legality on so many of the

:05:46. > :05:53.other interventions made elsewhere? If one reads carefully what all the

:05:54. > :05:56.Ukrainian forces are saying, yes, there is a nasty far right force in

:05:57. > :06:00.Ukraine at the present time which is part of the government. There is

:06:01. > :06:07.also a more live oral grouping in the Ukraine. There is also a large

:06:08. > :06:09.Russian grouping in the Ukraine who clearly have loyalties towards

:06:10. > :06:13.Russia. Does Ukraine break-up? That is a matter for the Ukrainian

:06:14. > :06:16.people. At the idea that we should move the whole thing in rhetoric

:06:17. > :06:24.towards a military war against Russia seems to me a disaster. You

:06:25. > :06:29.mentioned 1938, Sir Graham, and the Nazis. Jeremy Corbyn makes the point

:06:30. > :06:36.that some in the government have been described as Nazis, the Deputy

:06:37. > :06:43.Prime Minister included, in Ukraine. These are not nice people to deal

:06:44. > :06:47.with, are they? There was a law two years ago to introduce Russian as

:06:48. > :06:52.the second official language at a regional level. The new government

:06:53. > :07:00.decided to reverse this. That is now regarded as a mistake in having

:07:01. > :07:04.provoked Putin. I have a feeling that that was one influence behind

:07:05. > :07:10.his action in the Crimea. There are concerns on the Russian side, but

:07:11. > :07:12.Putin has nevertheless broken serious international agreements.

:07:13. > :07:18.The referendum in Crimea is also illegal. The Ukrainian constitution

:07:19. > :07:24.allows referendums across the whole country, not just one region. As to

:07:25. > :07:30.the moral arguments here, I think we are in a potential prewar situation.

:07:31. > :07:34.It is not just about Crimea, it is about European security in general.

:07:35. > :07:39.I have been living in the Baltic states. There is concerned there

:07:40. > :07:44.that there could be a threat exploiting the Russian minorities in

:07:45. > :07:51.those states. You are just back from Latvia. Are they worried there? Very

:07:52. > :07:54.worried. There has been an intense increase in worry over the last ten

:07:55. > :07:57.days. The prime minister made a statement that there was no threat

:07:58. > :08:04.to Latvian security for the moment, she said. That is unambiguous

:08:05. > :08:07.statement. I think we have got ourselves into this problem. Our

:08:08. > :08:11.foreign policy has been a mess since the end of the Cold War. Frank Lee,

:08:12. > :08:15.the EU, pushing ever eastward since the collapse of the Berlin Wall, we

:08:16. > :08:23.have been wooing the Ukrainians to join the EU. Russia thinks we have

:08:24. > :08:26.been encouraging the uprising in Ukraine. When that uprising

:08:27. > :08:32.happened, it made Russian intervention inevitable. There was

:08:33. > :08:38.no way Putin or any Russian leader would allow a major naval base in a

:08:39. > :08:43.potential EU member state. There is also no way he would allow a

:08:44. > :08:48.successful revolution to happen in Ukraine, on Russia's doorstep, when

:08:49. > :08:53.it sets a precedent at home. I take the point about the analogy with

:08:54. > :08:56.Hitler, but he is aligning himself with the interests of the Russian

:08:57. > :08:59.ethnic people. It puzzles me how the West has been blinded by the

:09:00. > :09:08.inevitability of the action that has had. I worry about the potential for

:09:09. > :09:11.military conflict, but we have got ourselves in a situation where we

:09:12. > :09:15.are hooked on Russian gas and Russian cash. We have been cutting

:09:16. > :09:21.our military forces and we are in open session to stand up literally

:09:22. > :09:27.to Russia. -- we are in no position to stand up to them. Dealing with

:09:28. > :09:31.the situation of the naval base, the Crimea was put into the Ukraine by

:09:32. > :09:36.Russia back in 1954 by Khrushchev. The Russians have a lease on that

:09:37. > :09:39.naval base until 2047. Ukrainians have said nothing about terminating

:09:40. > :09:45.the lease. It is clear that they have the right to use that naval

:09:46. > :09:52.base for another 30 years. An Ukraine, I am not sure the European

:09:53. > :09:56.Union has been pushing east, but what we have seen in Ukraine,

:09:57. > :10:00.Georgia, Armenia and a number of other countries, people have been

:10:01. > :10:06.saying, we would like to come closer to the European Union. So is your

:10:07. > :10:08.interpretation of pushing east expanding democracy and civic

:10:09. > :10:14.society and the rule of law? I would say the Ukrainians have been

:10:15. > :10:17.demonstrating in favour of those things, and wanting their own

:10:18. > :10:24.government to sign this new partnership that the Georgians and

:10:25. > :10:27.Moldovans have signed. It was when Viktor Yanukovych pulled out under

:10:28. > :10:29.pressure from Russia last November that there were all the

:10:30. > :10:35.demonstrations in Kiev which led to the overthrow of Yanukovych and a

:10:36. > :10:39.new government. We have to insist to the Ukrainians that they have free

:10:40. > :10:44.and fair elections and elect a new government. But Viktor Yanukovych

:10:45. > :10:49.was democratically elected. There was an agreement to have elections

:10:50. > :10:54.later this year anyway, and there was a strong argument that the

:10:55. > :11:02.removal of Yanukovych was not within the Ukrainian custard you should. Do

:11:03. > :11:08.you think it was legitimate? -- it was not within the Ukrainian

:11:09. > :11:14.constitution. But the wider issue is that the EU has got very close to

:11:15. > :11:18.NATO. NATO has been pushing hard to expand eastwards. Inevitably, Russia

:11:19. > :11:23.will get nervous if NATO sets up places around it orders. That

:11:24. > :11:27.encourages Russian military is. Can't we go back to the point where

:11:28. > :11:32.Ukraine was a nuclear free country that was not going to be a member of

:11:33. > :11:39.any alliance, either with Russia or with NATO, and start to demilitarise

:11:40. > :11:44.the situation and allow a proper debate for people to decide their

:11:45. > :11:48.own future in Ukraine? It seems to me that there is a terrible danger

:11:49. > :11:51.of a rush to a combination of an economic and military war, and

:11:52. > :11:57.goodness knows what the consequences will be. I welcome to the audience

:11:58. > :12:03.in a minute to find out what they think. It is potentially an

:12:04. > :12:09.apocalyptic scenario. Jeffrey, do you want to come back 's eye would

:12:10. > :12:15.point out that the February 21 agreement that Yanukovych side fell

:12:16. > :12:21.flat, because he fled the following day. So that escalated the

:12:22. > :12:28.situation. This was a Ukrainian revolution. Putin does not like it,

:12:29. > :12:33.but it was a revolution which reacted against Yanukovych. Not just

:12:34. > :12:37.against him failing to sign the agreement, but also against his

:12:38. > :12:44.corrupt regime. You could see this in the build-up to the crisis. Would

:12:45. > :12:47.Baroness Ashton go to Greece and support the opponents of the

:12:48. > :12:51.austerity measures there? No, she would not. She is happy to go to

:12:52. > :12:54.Ukraine and join a demonstration where there are fascists present in

:12:55. > :13:03.order to get rid of an elected government there. You can't have it

:13:04. > :13:08.both ways on elected governments. Russia is effect of league -- has

:13:09. > :13:13.effectively annexed Crimea. Putin knew that we would half and puff and

:13:14. > :13:17.that our hands were empty. Are we weak? Yes, and we have got ourselves

:13:18. > :13:23.into that position. We need to get our foreign policy sorted out and be

:13:24. > :13:27.clear on our national interests. He has been able to do this because we

:13:28. > :13:32.are weak. He has a clear view about where he wants to take Russia. I

:13:33. > :13:37.agree, it is scary and nationalistic and expansionist, but we have

:13:38. > :13:44.enabled him to do it because we have nothing in our hand except sanctions

:13:45. > :13:47.and not inviting him to the G-7. Putin has done this because he is

:13:48. > :13:52.weak. It is true that we are weak, and the biggest card Putin has is

:13:53. > :13:56.Russian oil and gas and our dangerous dependence on it. I hope

:13:57. > :13:59.that if one thing comes out of this, it is that we start to develop

:14:00. > :14:05.alternatives. We do a lot of trade with them. We have a lot of energy,

:14:06. > :14:09.we have all that Russian money in London and other places. So anything

:14:10. > :14:14.we do will be cutting off our nose to spite our face. I would not say

:14:15. > :14:20.anything we do, but certain things could of course be damaging to both

:14:21. > :14:25.sides. But Putin is increasingly isolated in Russia, and he is

:14:26. > :15:29.playing to the gallery back home. He is playing the populist card. I

:15:30. > :15:41.would go back to Churchill. In some ways, that interdependency stops us

:15:42. > :15:47.fighting. It ought to. It didn't in 1914, and I am surprised that

:15:48. > :15:51.parallels are being drawn historically. But one of the

:15:52. > :16:00.parallels is not being drawn, which is that with 1914. After 1945, there

:16:01. > :16:04.was the creation of an effective international organisation to manage

:16:05. > :16:09.crises. I am surprised that we have not heard to work this morning,

:16:10. > :16:13.United Nations. -- two words. That is surely where any talk of

:16:14. > :16:19.sanctions or international action should be taken place. I am

:16:20. > :16:26.surprised that nobody seems to be engaging that organisation, when

:16:27. > :16:29.that is what it is there to do. But of course, with Russia's permanent

:16:30. > :16:35.place on the Security Council, it cancels itself out. Well, the UN, if

:16:36. > :16:40.it takes a one-sided decision, will get vetoed by somebody, so it

:16:41. > :16:44.can't. Therefore, it falls to the UN to try to bring the sides together

:16:45. > :16:47.and pursue a process of demilitarisation. But I am alarmed

:16:48. > :16:52.by the weather NATO general secretary seems to be ramping up the

:16:53. > :16:56.anti-all the time . It is not his job to promote wars. He is meant to

:16:57. > :16:59.be answerable to a number of governments. He appears to be

:17:00. > :17:01.behaving as though he is a free agent who can say and do what he

:17:02. > :17:08.likes and develop this dangerous scenario. Ukraine has been a war

:17:09. > :17:12.ground in Europe for two centuries. Millions have died from famine, war,

:17:13. > :17:17.occupation and disasters. Let's not visit that upon them again . Lest

:17:18. > :17:20.try and deescalate and demilitarise and try and bring about some kind of

:17:21. > :17:31.peace process which will guarantee a peaceful future for those people and

:17:32. > :17:36.for Europe. I don't believe we have the moral legitimacy to intervene. I

:17:37. > :17:42.believe throughout history Britain has contributed to terror through

:17:43. > :17:46.propping up authoritarian regimes. An example was 1953 when we

:17:47. > :17:53.overthrew the Iranian Government. MI6 with the help of the CIA did

:17:54. > :18:00.that. Harold Wilson's Government in the '60s help helping General

:18:01. > :18:07.Suharto come to power in Indonesia leading to many deaths. And then the

:18:08. > :18:14.Iraq war, which even Kofi Annan said was illegal. Even Bam, if you look

:18:15. > :18:18.at drone strikes and how that's caused the deaths of hundreds of

:18:19. > :18:25.civilians, if you look at the two principles of the patterns of life

:18:26. > :18:30.and secondary strikes. This has been documented by Stamford Law

:18:31. > :18:34.University. So we have no moral plinth to stand on. Good morning. I

:18:35. > :18:40.agree with you and the gentleman there, because I think, as the

:18:41. > :18:44.Bishop said, we do have bullies in our world. There've been many

:18:45. > :18:50.examples, Saddam Hussein among one of them. I think the trouble with

:18:51. > :18:54.our reaction is that there is a knee-jerk reaction by our

:18:55. > :19:01.Governments I think every time in these cases. Either they are quiet

:19:02. > :19:05.and apathetic and then they do something crazy. I don't think we

:19:06. > :19:10.are in a position to judge. Our position is very grave. We are not

:19:11. > :19:15.at the front. We are not Latvia, we are not in that region. We intereven

:19:16. > :19:19.if with far too many things. None of our business? To a certain degree.

:19:20. > :19:24.Sir Graham, you think it is our business very much, but have we just

:19:25. > :19:28.lost the moral authority here because of recent years and going

:19:29. > :19:33.further back, as that gentleman says, we are in no position to

:19:34. > :19:38.judge. I think it is absolutely in our country's interests to uphold

:19:39. > :19:42.international law. I don't defend everything that's been done in other

:19:43. > :19:47.armed conflicts that have happened recently. I think we have made

:19:48. > :19:53.mistakes. We are not the only ones to have made mistakes, the Russians

:19:54. > :19:58.have, and others. But here we have a real interest as the United Kingdom

:19:59. > :20:01.in upholding international law. What Putin has done is clearly to ride

:20:02. > :20:07.roughshod over international law. That's why we have to act. Nobody's

:20:08. > :20:11.talking about military intervention. Military intervention would have to

:20:12. > :20:17.be a last resort, but my question to Jeremy Corbyn would be this. What do

:20:18. > :20:23.you do, try to negotiate by all means, that's what we are trying to

:20:24. > :20:32.do, but what if Russia go ahead with this referendum on Sunday in the

:20:33. > :20:37.Crimea, a referendum down the barrel of a gun. As Stalin said, power in

:20:38. > :20:41.politics is not with those who cast the votes but those who count them.

:20:42. > :20:46.The Ukrainians themselves have asked the West to come in and help. In my

:20:47. > :20:54.view we should help. You have the last word on this, Jeremy Corbyn.

:20:55. > :20:58.And MP is a Hoon -- and Mr Putin has expressed admiration with Josef

:20:59. > :21:05.Stalin, one of the biggest mass murderers in history. What if he

:21:06. > :21:08.does go through with this? He is a popular Russian leader. Public

:21:09. > :21:12.support for Russia isn't easy great as they thinks or a lot of other

:21:13. > :21:16.people think. I'm not sure that the Russian people, having lost so many

:21:17. > :21:20.in Afghanistan, want to see Russian lives lost in Ukraine any more than

:21:21. > :21:26.people in this country want to see us going into a ludicrous futile war

:21:27. > :21:31.that has to end up with a political settlement. All wars end with a

:21:32. > :21:37.political settlement. Let's not start with the building up of Armed

:21:38. > :21:42.Forces, moving fighter pilots to Poland. Negotiate through. The West

:21:43. > :21:50.has no moral authority to lecture on this after drone strikes, after

:21:51. > :21:54.Iraq, after so many other internal coups and conflicts around the

:21:55. > :21:58.world. Hand the thing back to the UN to try to bring about a peace

:21:59. > :22:02.process and de-escalate the rhetoric, which has been in danger

:22:03. > :22:05.of plunging us into a catastrophic war with nuclear implications.

:22:06. > :22:26.APPLAUSE Thank you very much indeed. We are debating this morning does

:22:27. > :22:30.Clare's law go far enough? And can children be damaged in

:22:31. > :22:34.fundamentalist religions? Get tweeting or send us any other ideas

:22:35. > :22:40.or thoughts you may have about the show.

:22:41. > :22:43.This weekend with the launch of Clare's Law which have obtained the

:22:44. > :22:47.right to check with the police if a new partner has previous convictions

:22:48. > :22:51.for violence against women. It is named after Clare Wood, who was

:22:52. > :22:57.strangled and set on fire by a man she had met true the internet.

:22:58. > :23:00.Unbeknown to her he had spent three years in prison for harassing

:23:01. > :23:05.another woman and had previously served six months for breaking a

:23:06. > :23:09.restraining order. Now, any woman has the right to ask whether a man

:23:10. > :23:15.who a violent past, but also the police have the right not to tell

:23:16. > :23:20.her all that they know. Does Clare's law go far enough? Morgan, you've

:23:21. > :23:24.worked with women who've had terrible experiences in their lives.

:23:25. > :23:28.We've seen surveys which are breathtaking, the amount of women in

:23:29. > :23:32.our country should have been subject to physical and sexual violence. I

:23:33. > :23:38.saw one survey saying it was one in three. Do you believe it is that

:23:39. > :23:41.widespread? Yes. I think we can see violence against women and girls,

:23:42. > :23:48.and domestic violence is probably the most present component of that

:23:49. > :23:51.violent expression within certainly in Wales. Are the police doing

:23:52. > :23:55.enough? It used to be said, it is just a domestic. Those days are gone

:23:56. > :24:00.aren't they? They are not entirely gone. We do have two different

:24:01. > :24:04.approaches to the law. If a woman is violently attacked by somebody on

:24:05. > :24:07.the street, then there are laws in place where that person would be

:24:08. > :24:12.arrested if it was a stranger. However, because it happens in our

:24:13. > :24:18.private space, if you like, there are different ways of applying that

:24:19. > :24:23.law. I have to say though that police, particularly over the last

:24:24. > :24:28.five years, have certainly picked up apace and there's strong leadership

:24:29. > :24:32.from the top to actually kind of take more action and not see

:24:33. > :24:38.domestic violence as a purely domestic issue. So we are making

:24:39. > :24:43.some progress. Some progress. Michael, you've fought for this for

:24:44. > :24:47.your daughter and it is a great achievement and it is a tribute to

:24:48. > :24:50.your dedication and steadfastness that this has come about, but is

:24:51. > :24:55.there still a problem with the police? Well, I would hate to

:24:56. > :24:59.correct you. I didn't do this for my daughter. I couldn't do anything for

:25:00. > :25:03.my daughter. I've done this for girls in the future and in the

:25:04. > :25:09.present. What happened to my daughter was tragic. What happens to

:25:10. > :25:16.girls in this country, anything between 100 and 150 every year -- 15

:25:17. > :25:21.every year, men and women meet a violent death - 120. They meet a

:25:22. > :25:26.violent death. For every one of those that died there was two people

:25:27. > :25:32.like me, mothers, fathers, I didn't count, brothers, sisters, sons,

:25:33. > :25:39.daughters, beganies, grandfather grandfathers. -- grannies,

:25:40. > :25:44.grandfathers. The ripples fall out. My granddaughter is the biggest

:25:45. > :25:49.loser in this. She is now 15. She's got to go through her life without

:25:50. > :25:53.the arm of her mother round her, without the concern of her mother

:25:54. > :25:58.round her. She's going to have to explain to her children why they

:25:59. > :26:05.don't have a grandma. I didn't do what I have done, I want wanted to

:26:06. > :26:09.trumpet what had happened to my daughter so that people woke up in

:26:10. > :26:13.this country. I don't believe that half the population were getting the

:26:14. > :26:22.support that they deserved. And had it not been for a young lady like

:26:23. > :26:27.Michelle, without hazel Blears or the Bolton coroner, Mrs Leeming.

:26:28. > :26:33.This would have never got off the ground. Does it go far enough

:26:34. > :26:36.though? It is easy enough to get someone's driving licence details.

:26:37. > :26:40.These convictions are a matter of record. These people have been in

:26:41. > :26:45.court. Yes, my sentiments exactly. Where was the secrecy? If it had

:26:46. > :26:51.already been in court and in the papers, why did the police not tell

:26:52. > :26:58.my daughter, he's done this before, get your bum out of here?

:26:59. > :27:03.APPLAUSE Why not? Why not? Why can't you just give

:27:04. > :27:06.this information to people. It is up to Parliament to decide what the

:27:07. > :27:11.rules are. They have had a look at this, they've listened carefully...

:27:12. > :27:18.Well what do you think? Let me explain this first. They've listened

:27:19. > :27:22.carefully to the arguments. Looked at the situation through three pilot

:27:23. > :27:26.schemes and the changes in procedure have come about. There are tests

:27:27. > :27:32.that have to be applied, whether we like it or not. These come from

:27:33. > :27:35.reasonableness and proportion at. That's what the European Convention

:27:36. > :27:38.on Human Rights says. The Government is moving in that field. They have

:27:39. > :27:42.had to make that choice against that background. What they have done is

:27:43. > :27:46.to decide on the basis of these three pilot schemes there can be

:27:47. > :27:49.proportionate releases of information in extreme

:27:50. > :27:53.circumstances. It's a big change in process and procedure. It can take

:27:54. > :27:58.up to 35 days and those could be the most dangerous 35 days of a woman's

:27:59. > :28:03.life. What the rules say clearly is a pressing need. There there is an

:28:04. > :28:08.immediate case conference. One's got to say that on the basis of three

:28:09. > :28:13.pilot schemes, the Home Secretary sanctioned it, if Parliament wants

:28:14. > :28:17.to change the rules around criminal confidentiality, they have to make

:28:18. > :28:28.that choice. Don't give me pressing need. 2006-2009, the head of ACPO

:28:29. > :28:34.and a Chief Constable of Wiltshire did an indopeth survey into domestic

:28:35. > :28:37.violence. I was handed it at my daughter's coroner's inquiry. He had

:28:38. > :28:44.already come to that conclusion. So we are going back eight years to

:28:45. > :28:51.2006 before he started picking up. I got to the Home Secretary, myself

:28:52. > :28:56.and my son, on the Thursday. On the Tuesday, Clare's law was trialed. I

:28:57. > :29:03.was a cherry on the cake. There was a lot of clever people long before I

:29:04. > :29:09.had opened my cakehole to move this on. I was the one - I don't know if

:29:10. > :29:14.it was the nature of my daughter's death, the timing of my daughter's

:29:15. > :29:18.death, but it did something to decide who woke up to the fact that

:29:19. > :29:21.there's domestic violence on a huge scale in this country and it is

:29:22. > :29:31.being swept under the carpet. APPLAUSE Amanda, do you have

:29:32. > :29:35.concerns about this law? How far it could go? I think, the main thing to

:29:36. > :29:38.say is that it is great to have a law that raises the profile of

:29:39. > :29:42.domestic violence, which is such a huge, huge problem. I don't have an

:29:43. > :29:46.issue really with the police's ability the make a disclosure when

:29:47. > :29:51.they deem that there is a significant risk of harm, which they

:29:52. > :29:56.had the power to do before Clare... It is different difficult to

:29:57. > :30:01.calibrate that. It is. They this the power to do that before Clare's law.

:30:02. > :30:06.If we look at the 400 applications made under Clare's law so to date

:30:07. > :30:09.there've been 100 disclosures. The police have determined those

:30:10. > :30:13.individuals plenty a clear risks. There is not a problem with those

:30:14. > :30:18.100 disclosures. It is what we can say about the 300 other cases where

:30:19. > :30:23.the police felt there wasn't enough information to make a determination.

:30:24. > :30:26.We know that domestic violence is hugely underreported. The majority

:30:27. > :30:30.of victims will never tell the police about the violence that they

:30:31. > :30:34.suffer. The cases that do come to police attention are extremely

:30:35. > :30:40.unlikely to result in a conviction. We are asking the police to make a

:30:41. > :30:43.determination on data that is largely absent. We are lulling

:30:44. > :30:57.victims into a false sense of security for that reason. What about

:30:58. > :31:01.those with no convictions? Clare's Law covers that, because it is about

:31:02. > :31:06.instances that have been brought to police attention. A couple of

:31:07. > :31:11.points. Firstly, it is not a change in the law. We call it Clare's Law

:31:12. > :31:17.because it is an emotive term, which is helpful. It is not a change in

:31:18. > :31:19.law, it is a change in procedure which has been given official

:31:20. > :31:25.sanction. And it is not just the police, there is a multi-agency

:31:26. > :31:28.panel that sits behind this. One could argue that they may get this

:31:29. > :31:32.process wrong, but there is a clear process that people go through all

:31:33. > :31:38.stop I just wanted to correct those impressions that might be given if

:31:39. > :31:42.you don't know enough about it. They determined that there was enough

:31:43. > :31:48.information in some cases that they could suggest that there was a risk

:31:49. > :31:51.of harm. I know you mentioned that there were 400 applications and

:31:52. > :31:57.maybe 100 of those were disclosed, but those 400 people who made those

:31:58. > :32:01.applications, whether they were disclosed to or not, they are then

:32:02. > :32:07.passed on information about where to go for support in the future. It is

:32:08. > :32:16.a tool. That is information that those people may not have had if

:32:17. > :32:19.they were not in that situation. What about those people who, in the

:32:20. > :32:26.first flush of love, you have faith in love, isn't the last thing you

:32:27. > :32:33.are going to do decide to run a few checks first? With Clare's Law, it

:32:34. > :32:37.is not about checking up. If somebody starts to show some form of

:32:38. > :32:46.controlling behaviour or violence. Oh, he will change! Or she will.

:32:47. > :32:52.Yes, you can hope he or she will change. But as a campaigner, I do a

:32:53. > :33:02.lot of research with domestic abuse charities. A lot of people signed my

:33:03. > :33:08.petition to get this scheme past. One woman said to me that when she

:33:09. > :33:11.first drug of a relationship with a man -- when she first struck up a

:33:12. > :33:16.relationship with a man, his ex-wife said to her, he hit me, it will not

:33:17. > :33:22.be long before he starts on you. She said, I just thought it was sour

:33:23. > :33:25.grapes. Had this law been in place, she was adamant that at least that

:33:26. > :33:30.would have been a gateway for her to just check. So you will get those

:33:31. > :33:39.who are caught up in love and they do think he will change. But if the

:33:40. > :33:42.police said, he does actually have a record, then you know it is not your

:33:43. > :33:50.fault and this man is a serial perpetrator. But it is not the

:33:51. > :33:57.woman's fault ever. Or the man's fault, it does happen the other day

:33:58. > :34:01.way. Yes, but it is not the victim's four. We need to take a

:34:02. > :34:05.stand against domestic violence . The only way to inoculate people

:34:06. > :34:12.against that is by starting, at an early age in school, really

:34:13. > :34:14.enlightening people about what a healthy relationship looks like,

:34:15. > :34:22.giving them a different lens on the world. I appreciate that raising the

:34:23. > :34:26.Clare's Law scheme is helpful, but once again, you are putting

:34:27. > :34:31.responsibility on the victim to check out, when actually, a huge

:34:32. > :34:39.proportion of the hymns don't even recognise that they are in an

:34:40. > :34:43.abusive relationship. But the way Clare's Law works enables other

:34:44. > :34:51.people to raise the issue with the police as well, so it is not all on

:34:52. > :34:53.the victim. But that requires a public understanding of what

:34:54. > :35:01.domestic is. And I think this change in procedure is a good thing, but it

:35:02. > :35:04.must go wide in hand with other initiatives and support services. We

:35:05. > :35:08.are implementing Clare's Law nationally at the same time that

:35:09. > :35:12.services are being cut. 200 women a day are not being provided with a

:35:13. > :35:17.refuge space when they ask for it. So how can we be implementing a law

:35:18. > :35:20.that is aimed at increasing safety for victims at the same time that

:35:21. > :35:26.services that are known to provide safety are not being given the

:35:27. > :35:34.financial support they need? Some people have said this should be

:35:35. > :35:40.extended beyond sexual and violent abuse to psychological abuse as

:35:41. > :35:46.well. A lot of people say they live with that. So how far do we spread

:35:47. > :35:52.the net? Yes. Well, when we started this off, we did not come across

:35:53. > :35:58.what this young lady has just said, the closure of homes, no

:35:59. > :36:03.after-care. The government seem to have wiped their hands one way or

:36:04. > :36:08.another. And it is serial. It moves on. Everybody seems to think it is a

:36:09. > :36:15.working class disease. It is everywhere. It is rife. For all the

:36:16. > :36:22.people who put up objections, I wear slip on shoes, not because I can't

:36:23. > :36:28.tie a knot. I want to pull them off and say, stand in my shoes for two

:36:29. > :36:37.minutes, and you will know what pain is. You will know what it does to

:36:38. > :36:41.people's lives. I don't sit here and pontificate. There are clever people

:36:42. > :36:46.in this country, contrary to what a lot of us seem to think. There are

:36:47. > :37:00.people in this country who can make this work. What do you think of the

:37:01. > :37:03.psychological abuse angle? It is taken into account. You don't have

:37:04. > :37:11.to wait for a man or woman to use physical violence. So it can just be

:37:12. > :37:14.constant psychological abuse? Yes, if you are feeling intimidated or

:37:15. > :37:18.controlled, that is how domestic abuse darts. But someone is unlikely

:37:19. > :37:24.to have a criminal record for that. At at the same time, if there is

:37:25. > :37:29.nothing to disclose, that person will be given ad vice and help and

:37:30. > :37:35.is alerted to the fact of domestic abuse. One thing everyone has in

:37:36. > :37:39.common here is the fact that we are talking about domestic. That is what

:37:40. > :37:45.Clare's Law has one. It is not the solution, but it has raised the

:37:46. > :37:55.issue of funding and it has got the government talking about it. If it

:37:56. > :38:02.saves one life... If it saves one life, the four year campaign and the

:38:03. > :38:05.team behind Clare's Law have achieved what has been worth all the

:38:06. > :38:17.suffering, all the travelling and all the heartache we have had to go

:38:18. > :38:21.through. The Bishop? In terms of talking about problems like this, it

:38:22. > :38:25.is wonderful that it is out in the open. But you made the point earlier

:38:26. > :38:30.about people wanting to be in a loving relationship. I recall,

:38:31. > :38:36.before I was ordained, when I was in the law, in matrimonial dispute

:38:37. > :38:42.situations, one would sometimes be faced with a battered spouse in the

:38:43. > :38:45.office who would want some sort of immediate relief. And it was

:38:46. > :38:50.possible to go Dwain Chambers and get an emergency injunction and then

:38:51. > :38:54.a couple of days later, there would be a full hearing -- it was possible

:38:55. > :39:00.to go to a chamber. And although this did not happen all the time, I

:39:01. > :39:08.have seen cases several times where at the second hearing, it was

:39:09. > :39:10.usually the wife who had sought the injunction in the first place, and

:39:11. > :39:14.she would say, I have taken him back. He has promised he will not do

:39:15. > :39:18.it again. And then of course, he often did do it again. We are

:39:19. > :39:25.talking about complex human relationships. One of the huge

:39:26. > :39:31.issues we have is that we don't have enough understanding about this

:39:32. > :39:38.behaviour. Should people be given a chance to change? Yes, absolutely.

:39:39. > :39:43.Women who have been affected by violence and abusive relationships

:39:44. > :39:46.need change programmes to help them get back on track and deal with the

:39:47. > :39:49.psychological and emotional damage. And perpetrators also need

:39:50. > :40:00.programmes where they can change their behaviour. There are good ones

:40:01. > :40:10.out there. Michael, I will come to you in the next debate. These social

:40:11. > :40:18.predators slink through our society, spreading despair and despondency.

:40:19. > :40:23.And as has been pointed out here, they are sometimes never picked up.

:40:24. > :40:29.We have a cash cow in this country called the motorist. I can sit in a

:40:30. > :40:34.car and tell you in a second that your car has been road taxed,

:40:35. > :40:40.insured, has its MOT, who the driver and the owner is, and has it been

:40:41. > :40:52.involved in a crime or drugs, in an instant. You want it to be that

:40:53. > :40:56.easy? It should be made that easy. I believe the police have a national

:40:57. > :41:02.computer at present which has 25,000 serial perpetrators on their books.

:41:03. > :41:08.If that could be expanded, that would and so a lot of the questions

:41:09. > :41:11.here. -- it would answer a lot of questions. It is not always to

:41:12. > :41:18.remove the woman out of the violent situation, it is to take the man out

:41:19. > :41:25.of the violent situation. Thank you all for your thoughts.

:41:26. > :41:37.You can join in all this morning's debates by logging onto the

:41:38. > :41:43.website. Or you can tweet. Tell us what you think about our last big

:41:44. > :41:47.question. Can children be damaged in fundamentalist religions? If you you

:41:48. > :41:53.would like to be in the audience at a future show, you can e-mail us. We

:41:54. > :42:01.will be in Newcastle upon Tyne next week, Southampton on March the 23rd

:42:02. > :42:04.and Glasgow the week after that. The mayor of London, Boris Johnson,

:42:05. > :42:08.has called for Muslim children who are at risk of being radicalised

:42:09. > :42:15.their parents to be taken into care. He says it is a form of child

:42:16. > :42:19.abuse. Now a jihadist plot run by fundamentalist Muslims to take over

:42:20. > :42:23.schools in Birmingham, Bradford and Manchester and run them according to

:42:24. > :42:27.strict Islamic principles has been exposed. In the past, the courts

:42:28. > :42:33.have barred a Christian couple from being foster parents cos of their

:42:34. > :42:36.biblical views on homosexuality, and on this programme, we often have

:42:37. > :42:41.under mentalist believers who reject scientifically accepted ideas and

:42:42. > :42:46.think wives should always submit to their husbands full up religious

:42:47. > :42:50.beliefs and modern liberal values are often in conflict. Can children

:42:51. > :42:56.be damaged by fundamentalist religions? Jonny Scaramanga, you

:42:57. > :43:00.were educated in a fundamentalist school. What were you taught? I was

:43:01. > :43:03.taught that I should not be friends with non-Christians. The first week

:43:04. > :43:07.I was there, the principal of the school taught us a sermon which

:43:08. > :43:15.said, birds of a feather must flock together. She said I should not be

:43:16. > :43:21.friends with non-Christians. And hell? Of course. We did not even

:43:22. > :43:24.need to talk about how, because it did for granted that everyone who

:43:25. > :43:30.did not believe what we believed was going to hell. But because those

:43:31. > :43:33.people were going to hell and they were evil and that there was a risk

:43:34. > :43:39.that they could corrupt as if we interacted with them, we were

:43:40. > :43:44.advised not to have interaction with other people. We were also taught at

:43:45. > :43:49.we ourselves were wicked because we were depraved because of sin, and it

:43:50. > :43:54.was only because of Jesus in us that there was anything good enough at

:43:55. > :43:59.all. It is a crushing thing to tell a child in terms of their

:44:00. > :44:04.self-esteem. You are an evangelical Christian, Liz. You don't believe

:44:05. > :44:08.that dinosaurs and people were on the earth at the same time, although

:44:09. > :44:11.some people do. But that is bonkers, and it will limit their

:44:12. > :44:15.career opportunities, clearly! But hell is important to your belief,

:44:16. > :44:25.isn't it? What would you teach a child? That it exists. And who is

:44:26. > :44:30.going there? Anybody who hasn't put their faith in Jesus and his death

:44:31. > :44:35.on the cross to pay for their sins. It is important to understand the

:44:36. > :44:42.difference between guidance and coercion. You have already said that

:44:43. > :44:47.Mustafa is going to hell. And me. You can go the Heaven and it is your

:44:48. > :44:59.choice if you decide to reject it. But you have to accept Jesus? I

:45:00. > :45:07.have. That's fine. I I'll see you in hell then. It is an interesting

:45:08. > :45:11.question, the fundamentalist regime. Isn't it tyrannical and bullying and

:45:12. > :45:16.frightening to tell a little child they might go to hell? No, that's

:45:17. > :45:20.twisting the story. My parents didn't tell me, you're going to go

:45:21. > :45:27.to hell if you don't do this, that and the other. They explained Jesus'

:45:28. > :45:34.and God's love by sending Jesus. This is a perverting idea of love if

:45:35. > :45:36.you think God would send people to eternal damnation. It is not

:45:37. > :45:42.possible. APPLAUSE Is it damaging for a child?

:45:43. > :45:45.Why is that damaging for a child? If you believe thaw know that other

:45:46. > :45:48.people are going to hell, it is impossible for you to treat them

:45:49. > :45:53.with the value and respect that they deserve as human being. If you think

:45:54. > :45:57.I'm depraved because of sin, you can't seriously say I'm worth as

:45:58. > :46:02.much as you. We are all in the same boat. If you look at the way we

:46:03. > :46:07.treat God, disrespect that we create the creator of the universe, one

:46:08. > :46:11.that rightfully owns everything and the disrespect we have for him, it

:46:12. > :46:16.is understandable. God gave us free will and choice. He did. And we to

:46:17. > :46:21.pave our own way to whatever waits beyond. Some of us believe there is

:46:22. > :46:28.something and others believe that it is a permanent cycle. And some of us

:46:29. > :46:32.believe nothing, none of the above. I'm not really worried about hell.

:46:33. > :46:36.This isn't a debate about hell - we've had that before. This is a

:46:37. > :46:40.debate about what we teach our children and potentially how

:46:41. > :46:47.damaging that might be. Bishop? What about those who take a literal view

:46:48. > :46:52.of the Bible, and indeed the Koran, unmediated word of God, allegedly.

:46:53. > :46:57.Could that be dangerous for children? It worries me immensely. I

:46:58. > :47:01.believe that young people, older people, all need to be in a position

:47:02. > :47:05.where they are properly educated to be able to make inform informed

:47:06. > :47:09.choices about any belief structure that might be presented to them. You

:47:10. > :47:13.only have to look at the history of the presents day to see where

:47:14. > :47:19.fundamentalism can actually lead people.

:47:20. > :47:27.APPLAUSE Before I come to you, what would you teach a child, since we

:47:28. > :47:33.are here, about hell? I can speak of my own experience, not of hell but

:47:34. > :47:37.my own education. I was taught just precomprehensive days in a state

:47:38. > :47:40.grammar school. I was taught religious education but somebody who

:47:41. > :47:46.I suppose nowadays would be described as a fairly fundamentalist

:47:47. > :47:51.conservative evangelical Baptist Minister from the Welsh valleys.

:47:52. > :47:55.Along with just about everybody else in my class I rejected what was

:47:56. > :48:00.teaching, which was there's the Bible, you swallow it hook, line and

:48:01. > :48:04.sinker. You take it as a literal word of God and if you don't

:48:05. > :48:10.believe, that you know where you will finish up. Really? But look

:48:11. > :48:14.what happened to me. I happened to believe that, I don't want to trade

:48:15. > :48:18.verses of scripture with people, but one of the things that is most

:48:19. > :48:22.important, Jesus said, if you have seen me, you've seen the Father. You

:48:23. > :48:30.judge your understanding of God by what you see in the ministry and the

:48:31. > :48:37.outreach and the welcome of Him. I don't see Him being as black and

:48:38. > :48:41.white as some fundamentalists might put it. Scripture in parts might

:48:42. > :48:47.have been written in that way because that was the cultural way it

:48:48. > :48:52.was done then. But to force feed and indoctrinate young children with

:48:53. > :49:00.some of the rubbish, quite frankly, that Christian education produces is

:49:01. > :49:06.wicked. Mustafa, as we were breaking bread before the programme, having a

:49:07. > :49:12.cuppa, you said that for example this phrase, homosexuality is

:49:13. > :49:18.un-Islamic. Well, before coming... No, you come to it. How would you

:49:19. > :49:23.teach, what would you teach a child, a young teenager who came to you and

:49:24. > :49:27.said, I'm gay, what should I do, what would you say to that child? I

:49:28. > :49:31.would talk to him about his feelings. Sometimes it is a normal

:49:32. > :49:38.thing for teenage terse, especially when they go through the hormone

:49:39. > :49:42.hormonal phases to feel a sense of, I'm homosexual. I could explain

:49:43. > :49:46.psychological literature and it could be caused by different

:49:47. > :49:50.hormones from their body. They are not understanding yet what they are

:49:51. > :49:56.feeling, they are exploring their identity. I would talk to young boy

:49:57. > :50:01.about his feelings. I wouldn't say OK, be homosexual. I wouldn't say,

:50:02. > :50:04.you're banned. What I believe in terms of homosexuality and

:50:05. > :50:09.heterosexuality is that heterosexuality is something that

:50:10. > :50:15.God wants us to be heterosexuals. That's my belief. I would promote

:50:16. > :50:20.that. To that child. But I would want to do that with the utmost

:50:21. > :50:24.respect for his feelings and for what he feels and the stage he is

:50:25. > :50:30.going through and for his identity and the difficult phases that he

:50:31. > :50:36.might feel. Why did God create homosexuals? I believe God creates

:50:37. > :50:39.human being. I don't believe God creates homosexuals or anybody else.

:50:40. > :50:44.They are human being that have chosen a certain path. A certainly

:50:45. > :50:49.sexual orientation. Just like me, I can choose to be a heterosexual.

:50:50. > :50:55.That's my belief. And somebody can choose to go down another path. When

:50:56. > :51:00.did you choose to be straight? When I was young. I believe that. You had

:51:01. > :51:04.the choice to be a homosexual and straight? On that point, hands up

:51:05. > :51:12.who wants to say something about this? I heard a Murray across the

:51:13. > :51:16.audience -- murmur. It is patronising for Christians or anyone

:51:17. > :51:20.of religious belief to say, we'll talk to people, we'll talk them out

:51:21. > :51:24.of it. If you change your way maybe we'll accept you. If you speak to

:51:25. > :51:29.some people, they will say the most difficult thing I've had to do is

:51:30. > :51:34.admit that I'm gay. Why would I choose to do that?

:51:35. > :51:41.APPLAUSE Anyone else? Anyone else wants to say something? I don't

:51:42. > :51:47.think anybody chooses to be homosexual. It is something you are

:51:48. > :51:53.or you are not. Exactly. Let's get back, how dangerous is it to teach a

:51:54. > :51:57.child that? I think it is very dangerous to teach children that

:51:58. > :52:03.you'll go to hell if you misbehave. The way a lot of religions seem to

:52:04. > :52:07.try and teach morality is it doesn't matter what you do as long as you

:52:08. > :52:11.accept Jesus you will go to heavy no-one the end. It is far more

:52:12. > :52:15.important to teach children the difference between what's right and

:52:16. > :52:21.what's wrong. I'm a humanist, so I believe that we should treat other

:52:22. > :52:26.people with respect. But that morals of society, if you like, are things

:52:27. > :52:31.which have evolved over time. They've not been thrust upon us by

:52:32. > :52:37.some imaginary figure in the sky. I think teaching people how to behave

:52:38. > :52:42.is far more important than saying, do what you but if you accept Jesus

:52:43. > :52:46.you will go to heavy no-one the end. Mustafa? I think it is very

:52:47. > :52:50.important to realise that parenting in itself is always about norms and

:52:51. > :52:56.values, even if you don't have a religion or whatever you believe you

:52:57. > :53:00.are teaching in a sense consciously or unconsciously that belief to your

:53:01. > :53:04.child. If it is for example, the gentleman before said OK I don't

:53:05. > :53:08.believe you should talk someone out of it, I believe he wants to talk me

:53:09. > :53:12.out of talking someone else out of something, because he doesn't agree

:53:13. > :53:17.with my view on things. So he is wanting to talk me out by having

:53:18. > :53:21.this debate or presenting his argumentation, which is fine. With

:53:22. > :53:26.all due respect it is fine, that's why we are here, why we are

:53:27. > :53:29.discussing. I don't think it is in a sense important to understand the

:53:30. > :53:34.perspective where someone comes from. You come from the perspective

:53:35. > :53:38.that teaching hell or saying that if you misbehave you will go to hell,

:53:39. > :53:42.which I don't agree with that way of teaching the by the way, but you

:53:43. > :53:47.disagree with that so you want to talk me out of it. Or you want to

:53:48. > :53:53.teach that view to your child. So you think he's an extremist. Mehdi,

:53:54. > :53:58.you left Islam didn't you? I. About teaching our kids, it is very

:53:59. > :54:05.selfish of us to think that our children are just our assets. I

:54:06. > :54:10.personally think our kids belong to themselves and society.

:54:11. > :54:21.APPLAUSE What land to you then? When did you have this reverse

:54:22. > :54:29.revelation? I was born in Iran. My family had a liberal and moderate

:54:30. > :54:35.background, I had to go tota... If you stood up and said, I'm an

:54:36. > :54:39.atheist? I would be prosecuted and not be classed as a citizen in my

:54:40. > :54:43.own country. I would get death threats. I'm taking a risk to talk

:54:44. > :54:49.to you about my past. As I went to school, I was taught to be

:54:50. > :54:57.religious. As a child I believed whatever they told me. I used to get

:54:58. > :55:03.beaten in school for not practising Islam and dodging prayers. At some

:55:04. > :55:07.point in my life I realised I was so fundamental I was telling my parents

:55:08. > :55:12.and my family and my friends off about not practising the religion. I

:55:13. > :55:17.was, I went so far that I was planning, I was just thinking that

:55:18. > :55:25.dying and killing for my own religion is a good practice. I

:55:26. > :55:33.should do anything necessarily to save my religion. There was points,

:55:34. > :55:43.I can remember that me and my cousins were even planning to kill

:55:44. > :55:48.someone after the fatwa -- killing Salman Rushdie after the fatwa. I

:55:49. > :55:53.grew out of it and I became so sceptic. Are you scared to say this

:55:54. > :55:57.now? You said at the beginning this is still quite a big thing for you

:55:58. > :56:04.to say. It is a big deal but I'm not scared. I just believe what is

:56:05. > :56:07.right. I need to say, I need to make people understand what's gone

:56:08. > :56:12.through my life and what's happened to me and what is happening to other

:56:13. > :56:18.kids in religious countries. It stays with people a long time

:56:19. > :56:24.doesn't it? Absolutely. It can damage... Johnny? It took me about

:56:25. > :56:27.ten years to find my way out of it and gradually realising that things

:56:28. > :56:31.that I have been taught weren't true, and to get over the fact I

:56:32. > :56:37.have been taught to accept what authority told me unquestioningly.

:56:38. > :56:42.Your critical thinking skills get hammered because so many of the

:56:43. > :56:46.teachings in fundamentalist Christianity, particularly those

:56:47. > :56:50.that reject eve Luke, they are so illogical and you are taught this is

:56:51. > :56:56.a good way to think, to disregard the evidence that disagrees with

:56:57. > :57:00.your religion, and it encourages conspiracy theories and an

:57:01. > :57:04.irrational too much to the evidence. I know Liz you would feel I'm

:57:05. > :57:09.presenting a perverted version of Christianity, that what I think

:57:10. > :57:16.about is not what you read, but what's fascinating about this is

:57:17. > :57:20.what you believe is totally true biblical Christianity. We would both

:57:21. > :57:25.have said we are taking the world of God and yet come to different

:57:26. > :57:30.conclusions. It makes a mockery of it. It is all about context. The

:57:31. > :57:33.question isn't so much that isn't it the beliefs that are the problem,

:57:34. > :57:39.but good or bad parenting. You can have good or bad parents in whatever

:57:40. > :57:45.background. They could be alcoholic, get divorced or take drugs. Larkin

:57:46. > :57:53.said they mess you up, your mum and dad. I'm paraphrasing. If you coerce

:57:54. > :57:57.your children it harms them. My parents taught me to use my powers

:57:58. > :58:03.of critical thinking, to question everything. I have had a very good

:58:04. > :58:06.education, I'm belowsed in that way. -- I'm blessed in that way. I've

:58:07. > :58:15.decided that the evidence fits best with the account of the Bible. In

:58:16. > :58:20.which case you will Joan me in condemning accelerated Christian

:58:21. > :58:25.education. Definitely. Consensus. The debates will continue online and

:58:26. > :58:31.on Twitter. Next week we are in Newcastle upon Tyne. For now it is

:58:32. > :58:34.goodbye, enjoy your Sunday. Thank you for watching The Big Questions.