:00:24. > :00:36.Good morning! I am Nicky Campbell, welcome. We are live from
:00:37. > :00:43.Northumbria University in Newcastle upon Tyne, welcome to The Big
:00:44. > :00:46.Questions! This week, the left-wing of British politics lost two
:00:47. > :00:53.important voices, Tony Benn and Bob Crow. Tony Benn was part of
:00:54. > :00:58.Labour's political aristocracy, Bob Crow was the general secretary of
:00:59. > :01:04.the RMT, where he secured money, perks and a generous pension for
:01:05. > :01:08.Tube drivers. Jeremy Paxman accused Bob Crow of being a dinosaur, Bob
:01:09. > :01:17.Crow replied, they were around for a long while. Has trade unionism had
:01:18. > :01:24.its day? Is there a place still for union leaders like Bob Crow, big
:01:25. > :01:29.figures fighting hard for their members? In some days, they hark
:01:30. > :01:35.back to the likes of Jack Jones. Are they of a bygone Iraq? Of course
:01:36. > :01:39.not. Bob Crow doubled his membership, nearly, the cos he was
:01:40. > :01:45.fighting for his members and getting good pay rises. If a union is doing
:01:46. > :01:51.that, you will get people wanting to join. It is good money, they will
:01:52. > :02:02.think. Trade unions have got a role to play. All over the world. A good,
:02:03. > :02:08.strong union. We have got strong industry here, the bosses have
:02:09. > :02:15.always been strong, so why should the trade unions not be? They are
:02:16. > :02:20.ordinary people, coming together. ?50,000 a year for the drivers, that
:02:21. > :02:25.is a fantastic deal. In the City of London, nobody pays anybody more
:02:26. > :02:32.than they are worth or more than the company could afford, clearly, the
:02:33. > :02:35.company can afford ?50,000 a year. Massive respect for what he
:02:36. > :02:42.delivered, but it was a short-term gain. Boris Johnson is looking to
:02:43. > :02:45.have driverless trains. If the cost of the drivers was not so high, he
:02:46. > :02:51.would not consider that. It is a short-term gain. The way we go about
:02:52. > :02:56.business now is working with trade unions, rather than having an
:02:57. > :03:00.adversarial relationship. You look at the British motor industry, you
:03:01. > :03:06.look at the 70s, you will remember... Barely! It was full of
:03:07. > :03:12.strikes every day, Miss Anne came in, they said, we want to book
:03:13. > :03:20.together, the most productive plant in Europe, washing out cars. The
:03:21. > :03:25.staff are well paid, they work hard, but they do not have an adversarial
:03:26. > :03:28.relationship. Would that company have been able to operate in this
:03:29. > :03:34.part of the world in the 70s and early 80s? Only if the trade unions
:03:35. > :03:40.could have moved with the times. That is right in a sense, the unions
:03:41. > :03:44.have modernised, we are talking about the miners strike, we will
:03:45. > :03:50.never get that again. But trade unions have modernised, Nissan a
:03:51. > :03:53.great example. As long as you are working together and it is not all
:03:54. > :04:02.one-sided. I have seen people working together in workshops, it
:04:03. > :04:08.has been one-sided. As long as trade unions are working with industry to
:04:09. > :04:14.make it take and make the work better and to have the conditions
:04:15. > :04:16.that they need, fine. There will never be anything like the miners
:04:17. > :04:21.strike again, can you conceive a situation where there would be
:04:22. > :04:25.industrial action as all-encompassing and bitter as that
:04:26. > :04:31.in this country? Nobody wanted to go down that road. Could it happen? I
:04:32. > :04:39.hope not, because a year-long means that neither side has won. I can see
:04:40. > :04:49.that circumstances will arise where people will get angry about the
:04:50. > :04:55.state of affairs and they will say, enough is enough. I was at a meeting
:04:56. > :05:00.yesterday, grouping together trade unions and local campaigners, and
:05:01. > :05:04.there is a mood of anger against austerity, I can foresee they will
:05:05. > :05:09.ordinate industrial action, because services are being destroyed, people
:05:10. > :05:13.do not like that, and trade unions want to be at the service of the
:05:14. > :05:21.community as well as their members. I can see that happening. Even the
:05:22. > :05:29.strikes that the RNC brought in January, London businesses were at
:05:30. > :05:35.breaking point. Businesses, retailers in London, if you have
:05:36. > :05:40.two, four days out, when the country is trying to come out of recession,
:05:41. > :05:48.it will kill the monthly turnover. Who was responsible? Bob Crow. No,
:05:49. > :05:56.it was Boris Johnson, removing staff from ticket offices. The members in
:05:57. > :06:01.that union said, no, we will not have our jobs lost. That is what
:06:02. > :06:11.motivates people to take industrial action, their right to have a job,
:06:12. > :06:14.decent pay and decent conditions. They are politicising an issue which
:06:15. > :06:23.is a management/worker emotion chip bubble. They need to think of
:06:24. > :06:27.change. A good union does not turn round with a fight against
:06:28. > :06:32.austerity. Public sector jobs are going to the private sector. That is
:06:33. > :06:37.great if you are in the private sector, but the unions are trying to
:06:38. > :06:41.politicise it by saying this is a way to tackle austerity. We can not
:06:42. > :06:48.afford the high cost of public expenditure. In fairness to the
:06:49. > :06:52.workers, we have got the bankers' bonuses, and the wages they are
:06:53. > :07:01.getting, and the money they are getting. And they are being told, I
:07:02. > :07:04.am not going to get a rise, and I am in debt, and austerity has hit me
:07:05. > :07:12.for four or five years, and here are the gaffers getting all of this
:07:13. > :07:17.money. It is unbalanced. You come to our members, nothing of what you
:07:18. > :07:24.have said relates to them. Most of them are hard-working, fighting for
:07:25. > :07:30.profit, risking everything. When you say that they are gaffers, that is
:07:31. > :07:35.an old term. What about the fat cats in the City of London? We stood up
:07:36. > :07:40.and said that the fact that the dividend payments at Barclays were
:07:41. > :07:45.three times lower than the executive pay, that is wrong. We do not deny
:07:46. > :07:51.that, so do not start throbbing that back. Thousands of workers in this
:07:52. > :07:54.country are not going to get a pay rise this year. And thousands of
:07:55. > :08:01.businesses are struggling to stay afloat. Profit is rising. That is
:08:02. > :08:07.the success of the whole organisation. You talked about jobs
:08:08. > :08:11.going to the private sector. In Doncaster, the careful people with
:08:12. > :08:18.mental disabilities has been privatised, they have cut the pay of
:08:19. > :08:24.the workers. In some cases by up to 50%. The union members have taken
:08:25. > :08:28.seven days of strike action, something they would never have done
:08:29. > :08:32.in the past, and they are going to take another seven days. They are
:08:33. > :08:43.having their pay cut as a result of privatisation. They are not the only
:08:44. > :08:51.ones. Is there a case for some people in the public sector not to
:08:52. > :08:57.be allowed to strike? Indeed. This is not going to go down well with
:08:58. > :09:01.these men. The London Tube network and some of the union members should
:09:02. > :09:04.not be allowed to strike where there is a larger financial benefit to
:09:05. > :09:12.London or the UK as a whole. The police cannot strike, the Tube
:09:13. > :09:20.network in London is an essential service, it should be regarded as
:09:21. > :09:28.such. Teachers? If you are going to roll that theory out, oddly, yes. If
:09:29. > :09:34.you take that away from working people, you are taking their rights
:09:35. > :09:42.away. There are many who have sympathy with your position, many do
:09:43. > :09:47.not, but these are hard-won rights in the 18th and 19th century, a
:09:48. > :09:54.fascinating part of our history. Are you suggesting they should be
:09:55. > :09:59.curtailed? Rolled back? Yes, and some of the rules need to evolve.
:10:00. > :10:04.Many rules and regulations have evolved through time, as the world
:10:05. > :10:10.has changed. This is one of those things that needs to be changed, it
:10:11. > :10:15.needs to evolve with the times. The bosses and the people who are at the
:10:16. > :10:21.control cannot be trusted, we have seen this with the bankers. If the
:10:22. > :10:30.workers have not got some way to defend themselves, they will just be
:10:31. > :10:36.exploited, we see it everyday. 50% of employment in this country in the
:10:37. > :10:41.private sector is in small business, and this general term, the bosses,
:10:42. > :10:46.is being thrown around, as if we are all getting bankers' bonuses, but it
:10:47. > :10:51.is a tiny percentage. The modern world is very different. You are
:10:52. > :10:56.talking about joining the modern Iraq. Are they dinosaurs? The
:10:57. > :11:01.dinosaurs died out, let's hope these old ways are going. Let the
:11:02. > :11:07.Victorian mill owners buy off, but equally, we need the trade union
:11:08. > :11:11.movement to move on. We have to be careful coming down your throat,
:11:12. > :11:22.because there are bosses that will exploit workers -- coming down your
:11:23. > :11:27.route. We know Ryan air very well, but if you ask Michael Leary who the
:11:28. > :11:30.most important people in their organisation in terms of the
:11:31. > :11:36.stakeholders, he talks about the staff, he says, if the staff are
:11:37. > :11:45.happy, and therefore the shareholders are happy. Office
:11:46. > :11:50.workers happy? Why does he not let them join a union, then? If he think
:11:51. > :11:58.they are happy, he would not have to worry. We have the working poor,
:11:59. > :12:02.people who are in work and still poor, and the taxpayer is
:12:03. > :12:07.subsidising their bosses. If everybody had a fair day's paid for
:12:08. > :12:13.a fair day's work, there would be no problem. What about customers? We
:12:14. > :12:19.have mentioned the bosses and the workers, what about the customers?
:12:20. > :12:26.The lady at the back, good morning. Good morning! I am wondering what
:12:27. > :12:36.you mean about fair play. As a 20-year-old, I am still being
:12:37. > :12:43.parried's paid ?5 an hour. I have worked in different bars, and you
:12:44. > :12:48.have to kind of businesses, the one where I am working now, where I know
:12:49. > :12:55.the boss, and I know they are having issues, they are trying to start
:12:56. > :12:58.up, they say, we will pay you the minimum wage, you have got to
:12:59. > :13:06.understand we are trying to build, and after rebuild, we can give you
:13:07. > :13:10.something back, but some places, I have a zero our contract, they will
:13:11. > :13:16.give you the minimum pay, they are getting the money in, and they are
:13:17. > :13:23.leaking you there. It is not like you have a lot of emphasis on the
:13:24. > :13:26.trains, this is a lot of people working in bars and these kind of
:13:27. > :13:34.places, and they do not get a say, and they are struggling. Many
:13:35. > :13:38.companies without unions will pay people as little as they can get
:13:39. > :13:42.away with, you don't think so? No, it is a short-term solution, not a
:13:43. > :13:45.long-term fix. Most people in business are looking for long term.
:13:46. > :13:50.You can't do that forever. You've got to treat your staff well or they
:13:51. > :13:56.do not perform as best they can. If they perform well, your business
:13:57. > :14:01.performs well. And what about the argument about protecting the jobs
:14:02. > :14:06.of the here and now and in so doing jeopardising the jobs in the future,
:14:07. > :14:10.it was that the case in the '70s? We are a globally competitive world, so
:14:11. > :14:13.whatever we do, we have to make sure we are better, be it by quality,
:14:14. > :14:18.price or service, than anyone else in the world. We can't look across
:14:19. > :14:24.the river and say, they are paid 50p an hour more. One of the issues of
:14:25. > :14:28.this time is zero hour contracts. They've risen 1,000% in the last
:14:29. > :14:36.couple of years. It kills your argument. No, it helps it. I have a
:14:37. > :14:43.chap who is 56, he doesn't want to work full time. He is a craftsman.
:14:44. > :14:50.He likes the idea that he can have a few weeks off. We work together. But
:14:51. > :14:54.that's the exception. No it is not, it happens all the time. The
:14:55. > :14:59.gentleman there. Good morning. I think if your friend was a single
:15:00. > :15:04.man, wouldn't enjoy that time off with zero hours contracts.
:15:05. > :15:09.APPLAUSE And if you pay workers more money, that money goes back into the
:15:10. > :15:16.economy. If people use the word gaffer, I apologise if a working
:15:17. > :15:25.class term offends you that much. APPLAUSE Down, boy! Hold fire. Let's
:15:26. > :15:29.get more comments. With the glasses. The thing is you are alls talking
:15:30. > :15:33.about trade unions and that's all well and good, but it seems to me
:15:34. > :15:37.you are talking about people who've already in work. I've only just
:15:38. > :15:42.turned 16, so I'm at the age now where I can start looking for a job
:15:43. > :15:46.and get work, and a few of my friends are, but we don't know our
:15:47. > :15:51.rights. We are taught, this is how you do a CV, but we need somebody
:15:52. > :15:56.our age to stand up for us and say, this is what you are allowed. If we
:15:57. > :16:00.don't have that, it is easy for us to be taken advantage of, and that
:16:01. > :16:04.has happened. APPLAUSE Who is there for the
:16:05. > :16:08.workers Richard? Modern business doesn't look to take advantage of
:16:09. > :16:12.its workforce. Private companies look to work with their employees,
:16:13. > :16:17.because a happy workforce actually looks to further the company's aims,
:16:18. > :16:22.once the company is making more money, the customer is more engaged
:16:23. > :16:29.and there is more money to pay the staff. We had a situation here on
:16:30. > :16:32.Tyneside where on the Metro, the private contractor employed the
:16:33. > :16:37.cleaners on a minimum wage, refused to recognise the trade union. That
:16:38. > :16:41.was a success of the RMT, they won a living wage for those cleaners. It
:16:42. > :16:45.took 12 months but they did it. As much as I think it would be lovely
:16:46. > :16:48.to say bosses wants to look after their staff, unfortunately you will
:16:49. > :16:51.always get a certain amount of people that won't treat people well
:16:52. > :16:58.and somebody needs to look after people who haven't got a voice.
:16:59. > :17:06.APPLAUSE Ian and Richard here in Newcastle University you've come
:17:07. > :17:10.into the lion's den! The exception moves rule. Good employers will
:17:11. > :17:13.survive in the long return and bad employers won't. One of the things
:17:14. > :17:18.we have to bear in mind is the vast majority. It is a bit like you might
:17:19. > :17:21.say the dinosaurs but the trade union movement are dying out and the
:17:22. > :17:27.modern unions are coming forward. You would think from listening to
:17:28. > :17:31.Ian we have Utopia in industry. We haven't got any! The world is
:17:32. > :17:38.constantly changing and we have to move with it. Globalisation,
:17:39. > :17:43.freelance work... Zero hours work contracts, whatever it is. I
:17:44. > :17:46.employed an apprentice. He understood customer service, what it
:17:47. > :17:48.ways like to turn up every day and he was better prepared to work
:17:49. > :17:55.Have you been in a union? Yes I was. I left a union as well. I was in the
:17:56. > :18:04.national Union of Journalists when I first started in the working world.
:18:05. > :18:09.What's wrong, couldn't hack it? APPLAUSE You making the just
:18:10. > :18:12.remember the 1980s, it was time when the NUV was strong, powerful, but
:18:13. > :18:17.there was a huge amount of change coming place. I had come out of
:18:18. > :18:22.university and I was using a PC, but they used a typewriter with carbon
:18:23. > :18:26.papers. It was a joke. I was struggling away. I said to the
:18:27. > :18:31.editor, who had a computer, "Can I have a computer?" He said
:18:32. > :18:38.unfortunately the NUJ refuses to let you have computers unless you get
:18:39. > :18:43.more pay for using one. I said, buts easier for me. But he said no, the
:18:44. > :18:49.union refuses. After six months of the union wanting another 20% pay
:18:50. > :18:52.rise, I said my life's miserable because of what the trade union
:18:53. > :18:56.wants. I left the union and got a PC. Within two years the union had
:18:57. > :19:01.been derecognised because of its very narrow minded stand.
:19:02. > :19:07.APPLAUSE Isn't it a good thing that practices like that are in the, to
:19:08. > :19:13.use Lenin's phrase, if I may, in the dustbin of history? No, I think
:19:14. > :19:20.trade unions have a role to play in the future. But practise like that?
:19:21. > :19:24.Practices like that are dying off. You will (Inaudible) we never had
:19:25. > :19:28.that, by the way. Down the mines you did what you were told to do. If we
:19:29. > :19:32.kill trade unions now, which the Tories are trying to do, lo and
:19:33. > :19:37.behold the workers of the future. What killed the coal mine industry,
:19:38. > :19:48.30 years on, some people say it was Mrs Thatcher and some say it was the
:19:49. > :19:52.strikes. No, it was the Ridley plan. She brought in an American and he
:19:53. > :19:56.did the work for her. Without those strikes what would the mining
:19:57. > :19:59.industry have looked like today? Very different. There's some great
:20:00. > :20:05.challenges for school in this country. They are closing all the
:20:06. > :20:11.coal-power powered power stations. If you employ politicians, they are
:20:12. > :20:18.paying a strike price for renewable energy where you can't afford to
:20:19. > :20:25.generate gas or coal. That's a political manipulation. Remove
:20:26. > :20:30.politicians. Apart from Ronnie. Thank you all very much for taking
:20:31. > :20:34.part. Thank you. APPLAUSE If you have something to
:20:35. > :20:37.say about that debate, log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions and follow
:20:38. > :20:41.the link to where you can join in the discussion online. Or contribute
:20:42. > :20:47.on Twitter. We're also debating live this morning: Is animal testing ever
:20:48. > :20:51.justified? And does religion make you happy? So get tweeting or
:20:52. > :20:53.emailing on those topics now, or send us any other ideas or thoughts
:20:54. > :21:05.you may have about the show. .
:21:06. > :21:08.Two universities here in the northeast of England have been
:21:09. > :21:12.causing controversy with experiments on animals. Newcastle University was
:21:13. > :21:15.in trouble for operating on baboons in Kenya to find treatments for
:21:16. > :21:18.stroke patients. And now there are protests against its work here,
:21:19. > :21:24.where macaque monkeys have been used for research into shakes and tremors
:21:25. > :21:27.in humans. And Durham University has reported a sevenfold increase in its
:21:28. > :21:37.use of animals in research. Is animal testing ever justified?
:21:38. > :21:42.Professor Paul Flecknell, hello, where are you Paul? Laboratory
:21:43. > :21:47.animal science at Newcastle University. I'm sure nobody in the
:21:48. > :21:52.studio will suggest that experiments on our closest relatives, the great
:21:53. > :21:57.apes, the chimps, that's been phased out in the western world,
:21:58. > :22:03.intelligent, sentient, cognitive, it is amazing that this goes on
:22:04. > :22:09.elsewhere. Why though macaques? We use very few - I should say first of
:22:10. > :22:12.all we use very few animals in our research programme in the UK. At
:22:13. > :22:18.Newcastle for example it is about 10% of our total medical research
:22:19. > :22:23.but the. The rest is, our colleagues would call alternative methods. But
:22:24. > :22:29.it is made up for in numbers by mice. I understand this, and it will
:22:30. > :22:34.no doubt come out, where macaques? Because they are so similar to us.
:22:35. > :22:38.They have some parts of their brain that we have and mice don't, rats
:22:39. > :22:43.don't, the other species that are used in labs don't. Because they are
:22:44. > :22:47.so like us, it raises even more ethical concerns about using them in
:22:48. > :22:53.research. Hence the point about chimps and great apes. The more like
:22:54. > :22:58.us they are the more useful it is. Beagles are used, and cats. A lot of
:22:59. > :23:03.people will say the fact that it works, or is effective, doesn't mean
:23:04. > :23:06.that it is right. It doesn't necessarily mean that it's right.
:23:07. > :23:13.What we are saying is that the means justify the benefits to humans. You
:23:14. > :23:16.call me Professor. I started life as a veterinary surgeon and working in
:23:17. > :23:20.practice and I moved into the field where I'm responsible for the
:23:21. > :23:26.welfare of animals in laboratories. I would rather we didn't use animals
:23:27. > :23:29.in research. As a vet, I care about animals, but I have to confess that
:23:30. > :23:34.at the end of the day I think people matter more. If the only way that we
:23:35. > :23:38.are going to make rapid progress towards treating some of the major
:23:39. > :23:43.disease problems that we still have is to use animals for part of that
:23:44. > :23:47.research, then it is ethical to do so. White bun ethical to say no
:23:48. > :23:53.we're not going to do, that we are going to deny ourselves all of those
:23:54. > :23:57.research options. APPLAUSE Dr Jarrod Bailey, we have
:23:58. > :24:00.the strongest ethical rules in the world in this country. We are
:24:01. > :24:05.leading the way, are we not, in the ethical treatment of lab animals?
:24:06. > :24:12.They may or may not be the strong nest the world. What we are - you
:24:13. > :24:18.can claim that they are the least-worst. We find out what really
:24:19. > :24:21.goes on in labs not from the PR from the industries that use them, from
:24:22. > :24:26.the people that use them, but from undercover investigations. People
:24:27. > :24:30.who go in unknown and take footage of what is being done. What's
:24:31. > :24:36.happening to these macaques, do you imagine? Fist of all they suffer
:24:37. > :24:41.from just being in a laboratory. This is scientifically acknowledged.
:24:42. > :24:46.They become stressed just from routine procedures from handling,
:24:47. > :24:51.seek people experimenting on them, having blood taken. Experimentally
:24:52. > :24:55.they are poisoned. They have new chemicals and substances tested,
:24:56. > :24:59.forced down tubes into their stomachs. They are forested to
:25:00. > :25:04.inhale them. They are have their skulls removed, things implanted
:25:05. > :25:07.into their brains. Experiments that are very invasive and cause a huge
:25:08. > :25:11.amount of suffering. That's what really goes on. Theeth cat argument
:25:12. > :25:17.not only involves what is being done to the animals, and there is strong
:25:18. > :25:20.evidence that there the suffering of animals in labs much greater than
:25:21. > :25:26.the people who do it would have you believe, so the cost is greater. But
:25:27. > :25:32.is that animal experimentation really essential to human cures and
:25:33. > :25:37.treatments to furthering the medicine? Or is it incidental? Sit
:25:38. > :25:43.counterproductive? There is a lot of evidence that I and other scientists
:25:44. > :25:48.like me have helped gather to show it is counterproductive. Animal
:25:49. > :25:53.research is misleading. They are not little furry humans and we would be
:25:54. > :25:57.much better, as you mentioned with chimpanzees in the US, that's
:25:58. > :26:00.stopped, and it has stopped because an independent science panel looked
:26:01. > :26:04.at the evidence... Because they are so like us. They didn't need to use
:26:05. > :26:08.chimps had. Even though they are the most like us they are not like us
:26:09. > :26:12.enough. If chimps aren't good enough, how on earth can any other
:26:13. > :26:17.animal species be good enough? We don't need to use animals?
:26:18. > :26:24.APPLAUSE To come back on the point that all eur mimates are -- our
:26:25. > :26:30.primates are frightened and distressed, we used nine macaques
:26:31. > :26:34.last year out of 25 animals which were primarily rats, mice and fish.
:26:35. > :26:39.Those animals were bred in captivity in the UK for research. When I go in
:26:40. > :26:44.to see them, they don't cower into a corner. They try to steal my badge
:26:45. > :26:49.and mobile phone, because that would be entertaining for them, not so
:26:50. > :26:54.much for me. Do they have a play area? They have play areas. They
:26:55. > :27:00.interact with their cage mates, their pen mates. I should say, is
:27:01. > :27:07.we've taken round nonscientists to look at them. Yesterday Steve Owen,
:27:08. > :27:12.and this backs up what you are saying, he said, I love prime axts
:27:13. > :27:16.when you work with a monkey study you really get to know them. In the
:27:17. > :27:22.end I prefer that it is me that puts them down. I know Steve and yes he
:27:23. > :27:27.will genuinely care about then answer. For our technical staff and
:27:28. > :27:30.the scientists who work with these animals, they do become individuals
:27:31. > :27:36.and it does become very hard when it is the end of a study and the animal
:27:37. > :27:42.has to be humanely killed. Ben? We are, you say there a maul number of
:27:43. > :27:45.animals being uxtd last year we used 4. 1 million animals in the UK
:27:46. > :27:51.medical experiments, the highest number in a generation. For those 4.
:27:52. > :27:55.1 million animals we don't have 4. 1 million new vaccines. There are 20
:27:56. > :27:59.inspectors, less than that now in the UK, for those 4. 1 million
:28:00. > :28:05.animal as. My colleague here did fantastic work. They went undercover
:28:06. > :28:12.at the Imperial College... A lot were fish and mice, have to say.
:28:13. > :28:15.People draw the lines at the most cognitive animals, macaque as
:28:16. > :28:20.include oozed. But fish and mice, people don't have such a problem
:28:21. > :28:26.with that That's very bizarre to me. All animals have the ability to feel
:28:27. > :28:30.pain and fear like we do. No, they don't. One of the reasons why, and I
:28:31. > :28:36.would fully support Jarrod and his campaign to not use chimpanzees,
:28:37. > :28:40.their brains are so like us and their emotional awareness is close
:28:41. > :28:45.us the that they feel pain and distress... But not a macaque? There
:28:46. > :28:49.is a difference. To say that a zebra fish, especially one at five days
:28:50. > :28:54.old, when it is about this big, feels same way that a mouse or a
:28:55. > :28:58.rats or a macaque does. They certainly feel pain. They have
:28:59. > :29:07.desires to live out their own live lease. So if that is the case we
:29:08. > :29:12.should ban fishing. Many species of animal, from rodents up, have
:29:13. > :29:16.similar structures and pathways in the brain that deal with the
:29:17. > :29:24.perception of pain and suffering, how they respond to it, having their
:29:25. > :29:30.natural behaviour is prevented and inhibited, and how they respond to
:29:31. > :29:35.incarceration. To claim that these animals are not suffering regularly
:29:36. > :29:40.and chronically is ridiculous, it has been proven, they have elevated
:29:41. > :29:45.levels of stress hormones, and there is another element. When animals are
:29:46. > :29:53.stressed, as animals in laboratories are, this is a fact, it effects
:29:54. > :29:57.their general health, the genes in their bodies. It is
:29:58. > :30:03.counter-productive to the experiment? Of course. You struggle
:30:04. > :30:13.to apply those results to normal monkeys and rats in the wild. A
:30:14. > :30:17.moment ago, Doctor Bailey said they were so different, it would not be
:30:18. > :30:22.scientifically useful, now he says they are so similar... They are
:30:23. > :30:29.similar in the way they suffer and respond to pain. Over time, we have
:30:30. > :30:33.seen so many medical breakthroughs, almost all of the breakthroughs that
:30:34. > :30:42.we see come from animal research. Decades ago, the polio vaccine, the
:30:43. > :30:50.TB vaccine. A lot of research into veterinary medicine. There are other
:30:51. > :30:57.ethical points. In this country, we were allowed to capture primates in
:30:58. > :31:02.the wild, babblings were caught, Newcastle University were in Kenyan,
:31:03. > :31:08.that was exposed, and you stopped it, because it is clearly
:31:09. > :31:18.unethical. As anyone will realise, you have to kill ten to get one. It
:31:19. > :31:24.was outsourced. Newcastle United... I have a one track mind sometimes!
:31:25. > :31:31.Because at University outsourced it, that is what you stop. To get one,
:31:32. > :31:36.you have to kill ten. They fight for their family. That is another
:31:37. > :31:40.ethical issue. That is why we purpose breed animals. The issue of
:31:41. > :31:50.going to Kenyan, the Primate research Centre captures them from
:31:51. > :31:53.the wild, where they are going to be killed as pests. The research worker
:31:54. > :31:58.thought it was better to use an animal that would otherwise have
:31:59. > :32:05.been killed. Why did you stop? There was a change in the policy of the
:32:06. > :32:09.research councils that oversee the funding, and we thought about the
:32:10. > :32:15.animals' experience, and decided it would be better not to do that work
:32:16. > :32:22.with wild caught animals. About the medical breakthroughs having come
:32:23. > :32:26.about from animal testing, it is a legal requirement to test all new
:32:27. > :32:32.drugs on animals, it does not mean it is the best way. The developed --
:32:33. > :32:39.the development process was through animals. Without animals, it would
:32:40. > :32:44.not have come about. We are not spending the money in new
:32:45. > :32:52.technology. You released figures to say that less than 4.036% of all
:32:53. > :32:56.research and develop and funding is on trying to produce alternatives to
:32:57. > :32:59.animal testing, it is inertia and lack of political will which means
:33:00. > :33:09.we have found ourselves in this situation. The lady there. I am a
:33:10. > :33:17.psychology student, we have studied animal studies, the ratio of ethics
:33:18. > :33:23.inducing animal studies. I do not agree with the fact that we can
:33:24. > :33:29.stress out of monkeys to see how their biology develops, but to an
:33:30. > :33:32.extent, a lot of us would not be here if no animal testing was done.
:33:33. > :33:38.It is horrible, it should not be done, certainly not for cosmetic
:33:39. > :33:45.purposes, but some of it has to be done in the initial stages. We all
:33:46. > :33:51.draw different lines. Yes, but at the end of the day, as he said, we
:33:52. > :34:00.choose these animals because of their similarities to us. They feel
:34:01. > :34:05.pain. You are causing another living being pain in doing that. If we have
:34:06. > :34:14.to use them, should recognise that they feel pain, and it is not always
:34:15. > :34:18.going to be a happy life. It was the point that we are looking to use
:34:19. > :34:24.babblings, and you can understand that from a scientific perspective,
:34:25. > :34:31.because the similarities exist, but we then have to look at, why would
:34:32. > :34:39.you use the five-day-old angelfish? If you are talking about only 5%
:34:40. > :34:44.being primates, with their similarities, that would suggest
:34:45. > :34:50.that 95% were animals that have such insignificant similarities that,
:34:51. > :34:55.what could we gain from that? The more these animals are like us, the
:34:56. > :35:05.more useful they are, the more of an ethical problem we have. You said
:35:06. > :35:10.earlier that if chimpanzees are not similar enough, what is? They are
:35:11. > :35:18.still very different. They can be similar in useful ways. For
:35:19. > :35:23.Parkinson's disease, the frontal and temporal lobes are enough. Animals
:35:24. > :35:27.are not humans, we have special cognitive things, notably language,
:35:28. > :35:33.which enable us to reflect on our thought processes. There is
:35:34. > :35:38.increasing evidence about those higher cognitive species having
:35:39. > :35:45.their own forms. An interesting point, some chimpanzees are more
:35:46. > :36:00.intelligent than some human beings. Then, but not and Moore said he and
:36:01. > :36:07.-- and more sentience and cognitive. The experiment being referred to is
:36:08. > :36:10.the chimpanzees' working memory, they can identify where things are.
:36:11. > :36:16.Humans have to think consciously about that. Chimpanzees have that
:36:17. > :36:20.ability automatically. That does not mean it is intelligence, it is a
:36:21. > :36:26.different type of thing. When you see animals moving towards something
:36:27. > :36:29.or away from something, that does not necessarily mean they are
:36:30. > :36:35.feeling fear, they are showing a response. Fear is a uniquely human
:36:36. > :36:42.emotion. It depends whether you define it according to behaviour
:36:43. > :36:46.or... Dolphins, elephants, chimpanzees, research coming out...
:36:47. > :36:52.You can see when animals are distressed. If you are going to use
:36:53. > :37:02.them, you have to use the absolute minimum amount. We are talking about
:37:03. > :37:07.how close to humans the animals are, if we are torturing animals, how
:37:08. > :37:43.human are we? That is emotive language, you are right,
:37:44. > :37:45.stop people doing it. Animal testing will not stop tomorrow. Anybody who
:37:46. > :37:52.has taken a dog or a cat to the vet will no that animals fear things.
:37:53. > :37:58.That is nonsense. Something cannot be ethically defensible that is not
:37:59. > :38:03.scientifically defensible. We cannot say it is OK to test on animals when
:38:04. > :38:08.scientifically it is not OK. I would like to briefly run through some of
:38:09. > :38:12.the things that we have found. Chimpanzees use in America. Despite
:38:13. > :38:19.the citrus claims from those who use them that medical research would
:38:20. > :38:25.fail. It stopped based on the evidence we gathered, that 100 AIDS
:38:26. > :38:30.vaccines have been tested on chimps and did not work in people. In
:38:31. > :38:37.animals, well over 1000/ treatment. They do not work in humans. If you
:38:38. > :38:42.stop it, and get outsourced to countries who do not have any
:38:43. > :38:45.standards or regulations. Primates, there is a growing one in China,
:38:46. > :38:51.they are disappearing into laboratories. I am looking at this
:38:52. > :38:55.from a human perspective, where are we going to get tools and
:38:56. > :39:00.treatments? The pharmaceutical industry will tell you they are in
:39:01. > :39:05.serious trouble, they are so reliant on animal testing. 19 out of 20
:39:06. > :39:10.drugs that look good in animals do not work in people, even some of the
:39:11. > :39:16.ones that make it on later removed. We are still looking for clues for
:39:17. > :39:23.cancer, we need an AIDS vaccine, because animal tests do not work. We
:39:24. > :39:27.do not have a cancer cure, but we have treatments which are pushing up
:39:28. > :39:32.the survival rate, breast cancer has gone from 40% to 75%, testicular
:39:33. > :39:39.cancer even further, next to the research on animals. The law says
:39:40. > :39:47.that if there is another viable method, you must use it. Does that
:39:48. > :39:52.will not apply? Of course. The University over the road, looking at
:39:53. > :39:56.the effect of green tea extract on animals, study people who drink
:39:57. > :40:02.green tea, you can do it. The effect of mint on mice, putting them on a
:40:03. > :40:10.hot plate and seeing how it burns their feet. Studied this on people.
:40:11. > :40:19.We do. You know that animals feel fear. Where we differ with a
:40:20. > :40:22.psychology is, are the animals conscious of their fear in the same
:40:23. > :40:29.way that I am? I can it is about fear. That is why you would not do
:40:30. > :40:33.it on a chimp? Yes, there are differences. I do not claim that
:40:34. > :40:40.Bush do not feel pain, but it is in a different way from other species.
:40:41. > :40:43.Each species has its unique sensation. To go back to this idea
:40:44. > :40:49.about other ways of doing things that scientists are ignoring, as I
:40:50. > :40:53.said at the outset, about 10% of the total medical research in Newcastle
:40:54. > :41:00.has some involvement of animals. We are using patients, human
:41:01. > :41:07.volunteers, the same laboratory that happy controversy about Kenya, it
:41:08. > :41:11.works with people, with volunteers. They do brain slice work, individual
:41:12. > :41:16.cells in a ditch, and try and work out what is happening, but at some
:41:17. > :41:20.stage, you need to go back to the whole animal, and if it is not
:41:21. > :41:23.ethical to make it human, you have to find another approach, which
:41:24. > :41:30.usually involves a laboratory animal. You can join in the debates
:41:31. > :41:34.by logging onto the website. You can follow the link to the online
:41:35. > :41:40.discussion. Or you can tweet. Tell us what you think about our last big
:41:41. > :41:46.Ashton, does religion make you happy? If you would like to be in
:41:47. > :41:56.the audience for a future show, you can e-mail us. Southampton next
:41:57. > :41:59.week, then Glasgow and Bristol. This Thursday has been dubbed
:42:00. > :42:04.International Day of Happiness in support of the UN's humanitarian
:42:05. > :42:09.efforts. If you want to take part, you need to post a video of yourself
:42:10. > :42:13.being happy online. There is a link between religious affiliation and
:42:14. > :42:14.happiness, especially in society is a link between religious affiliation
:42:15. > :42:19.and happiness, especially in societies facing adversity. But does
:42:20. > :42:27.religion make you happy? Does religion make you happy? Does it
:42:28. > :42:31.elevate the quality of your life? We have to understand the difference,
:42:32. > :42:41.we have to separate religion as an institutional organisation... We
:42:42. > :42:48.have to, if we want a mature debate. Or else people will take cheap
:42:49. > :42:55.shots. Faith, belief in God. The characteristic that makes a
:42:56. > :43:04.spirituality. I do believe it, I am a Christian, a Catholic Christian,
:43:05. > :43:07.the gospel values which I hold the, they help bring me in connection
:43:08. > :43:13.with other people, through communities, let's say the Church
:43:14. > :43:17.committee, for example, the local parish, something like that. There
:43:18. > :43:24.is an understanding, and responsibility, to be aware of each
:43:25. > :43:28.other. For the happiness side of it, also, I think it is important to
:43:29. > :43:32.understand what happiness means. We can have one side of happiness which
:43:33. > :43:38.is pleasure, which is great, not a problem. But the happiness that I
:43:39. > :43:44.think spirituality can give you, that a real faith can give you, if
:43:45. > :43:45.the deep joy that is spoken about in the Bible and in the gospels
:43:46. > :43:54.particularly. differences. I do not claim that
:43:55. > :44:01.Bush do not feel pain, Some people get fellowship at the golf club.
:44:02. > :44:09.Absolutely. It is not exclusive. So it is a valid cation of your world
:44:10. > :44:11.view, is that what you are talking about, like-mind people? Snow Very
:44:12. > :44:15.much not exclusive. It is that we are all people, we are all human
:44:16. > :44:20.being on this planet and somehow we are connected, and that there is a
:44:21. > :44:24.responsibility to be aware of the other person, particularly the most
:44:25. > :44:31.vulnerable this societies. That's what true gospel values is about.
:44:32. > :44:39.Ronnie Campbell is happier when he is with Ed Miliband than when she
:44:40. > :44:46.with George Osborne. LAUGHTER Aren't you? Well...
:44:47. > :44:55.LAUGHTER Who wouldn't be? Do you understand me? Yes, I do. There is
:44:56. > :45:06.an understanding, there is a connection to in that scenario would
:45:07. > :45:15.be an ideology of society, which is fine. Similar, like-minded. It can
:45:16. > :45:18.be, yes. It is very important to get that distinction between the
:45:19. > :45:26.institution. I'm hammering that home. Hammer it home all you want.
:45:27. > :45:31.There are great schisms at the moment which are causing
:45:32. > :45:36.unhappiness. You are a revert, are you happier now? I am. It is
:45:37. > :45:41.difficult to be happy after that animal experimentation debate. That
:45:42. > :45:46.was well depressing, but no, seriously, it really was
:45:47. > :45:54.heart-breaking. But the Koran, the holy book in which I have faith,
:45:55. > :46:00.says verily in the remembrance of God do hearts find tranquillity. I
:46:01. > :46:03.think from the point of view of a fallible, a finite human being to
:46:04. > :46:07.contemplate, to remember, to remember the Washington who was
:46:08. > :46:13.perfect, who was all-wise, who was almighty, all good, it cheers me um.
:46:14. > :46:23.It cheers you up? Right, so your life has changed hasn't it? You used
:46:24. > :46:29.to drink a lot and so forth. I wasn't a plonky!
:46:30. > :46:37.LAUGHTER But you look back on that time of life and you think, that was
:46:38. > :46:42.all just frivolous nonsense, now I've got something deep in my life,
:46:43. > :46:45.yes? I think Mia hit the nail on the head that there are different types
:46:46. > :46:50.of happiness. Getting smashed on Stella does bring a certain type of
:46:51. > :46:56.happiness. Transient. Transient happiness. Practising my religion
:46:57. > :47:04.and believing in it, that gives me a different type of happiness. I refer
:47:05. > :47:09.the lat tore the former. Although I can still have some worldly
:47:10. > :47:15.pleasures as well, I'm not a hermit. When are you at your happiness? --
:47:16. > :47:21.your happiest? From the point of view of a Muslim, theled with world,
:47:22. > :47:29.even the most mundane affairs, are imbued with meaning. We believe that
:47:30. > :47:36.the whole (Inaudible) is a manifestation of the creative
:47:37. > :47:44.capacity of almighty God. Even making cheese on toast can be a
:47:45. > :47:53.mind-blowing experience, because everything is God in action. So
:47:54. > :48:05.walking through the countryside and looking at the creation of God, as I
:48:06. > :48:13.see it, that's probably when I'm at my happiest. OK. Matt? Exactly as
:48:14. > :48:18.you described it. Religion definitely is statistically
:48:19. > :48:26.associated with being happy. The more adverse circumstances you have,
:48:27. > :48:31.the more effect it has. But not only that, the actual, the religious
:48:32. > :48:36.make-up of the country also has an effect. The more religious is
:48:37. > :48:42.country is overall the greater the effect religion has on your own
:48:43. > :48:49.happiness. Explain that more. The UK... Probably more people are part
:48:50. > :48:53.of that group. Specifically the UK. Fairly secular compared to most
:48:54. > :48:58.countries. Take it - an African nation, people in Africa will get
:48:59. > :49:04.more benefit from that religion than the people in the UK where there is
:49:05. > :49:10.less of a religious nature. That has to be looked at within the context
:49:11. > :49:16.of the socioeconomic status of that country. We are a relatively rich
:49:17. > :49:23.country, our levels of happiness are high compared to other countries. We
:49:24. > :49:32.might reach a ceiling effect. What's interesting is the way it works. One
:49:33. > :49:43.of the ways, like Mia was saying, you are part of a group where you
:49:44. > :49:53.get respect, where people share your values. You have morals and they are
:49:54. > :50:03.shared. We also get personal meaning from life. If for example you are
:50:04. > :50:07.finding it difficult in your life, you are having difficult
:50:08. > :50:13.circumstances, not only does prayer maybe enable you to cope with that
:50:14. > :50:20.but there's a different meaning beyond the materialistic gains that
:50:21. > :50:28.might be there as well. You find this, the things that people pray
:50:29. > :50:37.for change. It is a consolation as well isn't it? It may be a
:50:38. > :50:46.consolation. It is about meaning, having self efficacy. If you are
:50:47. > :50:53.elderly and have lost a partner, you think maybe you'll meet again, not
:50:54. > :50:57.just elderly, it is a huge comfort isn't it? It is the terra management
:50:58. > :51:00.thing... There's a label for everything! There. It is nice to
:51:01. > :51:04.think we might see people afterwards. This might help us deal
:51:05. > :51:06.with that. There are reasons to believeta humans are predisposed to
:51:07. > :51:09.believe in an afterlife without teachings of God. It is honouring
:51:10. > :51:11.the ancestors. I grew up in Northern Ireland. Very religious. I think a
:51:12. > :51:15.lot of the attraction of religion, quite a lot of religions offer
:51:16. > :51:20.redemption and forgiveness. With that you can see why for example
:51:21. > :51:25.somebody with blood on his hands, like Tony Blair, wants to be
:51:26. > :51:32.Catholic, because he feels he can get forgiveness. That's part of the
:51:33. > :51:36.attraction people have for it. But away from that point, which we have
:51:37. > :51:39.debated for, the former Prime Minister, Martin is saying there's a
:51:40. > :51:41.lot of people who are river no-one Northern Ireland. There is sectarian
:51:42. > :51:43.sectarianism... And in the whole world. That's the politics of
:51:44. > :51:48.religion. What we were talking about today is the spirit at of the
:51:49. > :51:52.individual. Can that aid your own happiness. Those people were engaged
:51:53. > :51:58.with their religion and it was making them happy, they wouldn't be
:51:59. > :52:05.going into the politics of each other if they were religion. If they
:52:06. > :52:13.are engageded with the true sense of what the religion is about, not the
:52:14. > :52:22.politics of it. Richard? Without making life of it, if you look at
:52:23. > :52:31.what faith, is people coming together for a common purpose, we
:52:32. > :52:38.are in Newcastle. Thursday morning, the happiness index would be higher
:52:39. > :52:43.if St St James's Park victory on Wednesday was for the home and not
:52:44. > :52:48.the away team. Les? We need to remember what really does bring us
:52:49. > :52:53.happiness. If you look at what the happiness... What brings you
:52:54. > :52:59.happiness as a human? As a humanist, helping other folks. When you
:53:00. > :53:07.analyse it, when you see people in times of distress, you find when
:53:08. > :53:15.they are in real distressful time, off as a bereavement or something,
:53:16. > :53:20.what really brings them happiness, what makes their life worthwhile is
:53:21. > :53:22.the fact that they are able to help people. That is the fundamental
:53:23. > :53:27.thing. APPLAUSE You don't need religion to
:53:28. > :53:33.do that. The man at the back. Good morning. I was brought up a Roman
:53:34. > :53:41.Catholic. I'm now not practising, but I do have a lot of happy
:53:42. > :53:45.memories spent at church as a child. Whether that was my interaction with
:53:46. > :53:50.the religion, my interaction with other people, or my interaction with
:53:51. > :53:57.the holy book, I don't know. However, if it makes happy, meeting
:53:58. > :54:04.everybody once a week... Are you happy now? I don't know. I don't
:54:05. > :54:09.know where that happiness came from, was it the people, with the book or
:54:10. > :54:11.the religion? I don't know. If you are happy doing that once a week or
:54:12. > :54:12.more, and spending time with like-minded people, knock yourself
:54:13. > :54:15.out and go for it. Whatever makes you happy. You, sir. I gave up
:54:16. > :54:17.religion and I've never been happier ever since. Daniel will have a word
:54:18. > :54:21.with you later. He will fail miserably. I've found that the more
:54:22. > :54:25.religious a country, the more suffering is you will see on its
:54:26. > :54:30.streets. That's just a correlation rather than a causative fact. Where
:54:31. > :54:36.there is more suffering people are more likely to be religious rather
:54:37. > :54:43.than religion causing the suffering. That is partly because in those
:54:44. > :54:46.times there are more things that prayer can help you deal with. Is it
:54:47. > :54:48.not that it makes the population more willing to accept their
:54:49. > :54:49.suffering, because they are told they will get their reward in
:54:50. > :54:52.Heaven, so they are more willing to take it more. That could be how the
:54:53. > :54:53.country works but it doesn't mean the country isn't coping. The
:54:54. > :54:55.mechanism by which it works is complicated. You may or may not be
:54:56. > :54:57.happy with that. As a psychologist I'm trying to describe the human
:54:58. > :54:57.phenomenon. When are you at your happiest? Today, meeting you, in
:54:58. > :54:59.Nicky. LAUGHTER While I do appreciate
:55:00. > :55:01.everybody's views and I do think that as a Christian myself religion
:55:02. > :55:02.can make you happier and it is a spiritual journey, but at the same
:55:03. > :55:04.time I think the problems in our modern culture come when people take
:55:05. > :55:06.a political viewpoint on it or go beyond the individual spirit at of
:55:07. > :55:07.it. Then we get huge problems, killings in the name of honour. We
:55:08. > :55:09.get radical people from all religions acting in the wrong way. I
:55:10. > :55:11.think that's wren when it can cause grave unhappiness. I think there was
:55:12. > :55:13.a point you wanted to drum home and that is the point. It is when people
:55:14. > :55:15.make the religion itself their God. Religion is there as a structure to
:55:16. > :55:17.help you manifest your faith. How would you change that? I did agree
:55:18. > :55:19.with what you said earlier about helping people. As a humanist that
:55:20. > :55:20.would be very important to you. As a Christian that's fundamental to me.
:55:21. > :55:23.To gospel values. You only have to look at what's happening now,
:55:24. > :55:27.particularly in the Catholic Church with Pope Francis, who is
:55:28. > :55:33.rejuvenating the Catholic Church because he is bringing it back to
:55:34. > :55:39.what the gospel values are all about. He's keeping it real is he?
:55:40. > :55:44.Yes. What happens in many religious groups, they tend to focus on
:55:45. > :55:48.helping their own. That's not to say they don't help nonreligious groups,
:55:49. > :55:57.but there is a certain element of it. It is quite strong, particularly
:55:58. > :56:03.in the Muslim faith, I also work with Save the Children. It is a
:56:04. > :56:10.secular charity. But when we are fundraising we have to identify
:56:11. > :56:14.certain project projects for Muslim donors. Because they insist that if
:56:15. > :56:22.money is going to be used it should be used for Muslims. So you are in
:56:23. > :56:27.an in-group it excludes the out-group? It can do. The I think
:56:28. > :56:30.you are trying to separate the politics of religion and the spirit
:56:31. > :56:34.at of religion but I don't think you really have a choice in modern
:56:35. > :56:39.religions today. I think that's is very frustrating and that doesn't
:56:40. > :56:44.make you happy. Daniel? Sorry, but I really don't want to let Les get
:56:45. > :56:49.away with that. It is just a load of rubbish, the idea that Muslims or
:56:50. > :56:54.people of any other religion only done to causes that are going to
:56:55. > :56:58.benefit people of their faith. He said that can be the case? But it's
:56:59. > :57:02.not the norm. I can say that as someone who is very much part of the
:57:03. > :57:07.Muslim community. I've seen with my own eyes Muslims raising money for
:57:08. > :57:10.charities which supersede all religions are, things like Marie
:57:11. > :57:15.Curie. It is not just Muslims who get cancer. Actually the evidence
:57:16. > :57:19.shows that although religious people do give more to charity, they give
:57:20. > :57:25.more to charity specifically to ones associated with their faith. They do
:57:26. > :57:31.favour and buy answer-group charities. If you see someone on the
:57:32. > :57:36.TV who looks like your own mother or father suffering is, that will
:57:37. > :57:40.probably strike a chord within you to donate rather than someone who
:57:41. > :57:49.looks very much different and might not strike a chord. If you turned on
:57:50. > :57:54.the television and sea someone like him, would you donate? I'm
:57:55. > :57:59.initiativing nothing to anybody! LAUGHTER I like the idea of religion
:58:00. > :58:05.and faith, but why do so many organised religions, why are these
:58:06. > :58:09.divisions causing all these trouble? Pope Francis knows it is not about
:58:10. > :58:17.the religion but the faith. Why are there divisions? Personal spirit at,
:58:18. > :58:22.your own beliefs? Thank you all very much for taking part. .
:58:23. > :58:25.As always, the debates will continue online and on Twitter. Next week
:58:26. > :58:27.we're in Southampton, so join us then. But for now, goodbye. Have a
:58:28. > :58:32.great Sunday.