:00:08. > :00:18.Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell. Taxing wealth, making amends for
:00:19. > :00:38.slavery and is praying to be jawed. Welcome to The Big Questions.
:00:39. > :00:44.Today we're live from King Edward VI school in Southampton. Welcome,
:00:45. > :00:47.everyone, to The Big Questions. This week the Chancellor delivered
:00:48. > :00:52.his fifth budget speech with good news for soon-to-be pensioners.
:00:53. > :00:56.Those retiring next year will be able to do what they want with their
:00:57. > :01:00.pension pots, worth up to ?1.5 million for some, instead of having
:01:01. > :01:03.to buy a low yielding annuity. Add to that the rapidly escalating value
:01:04. > :01:10.of homes, especially here in the south, and suddenly more people are
:01:11. > :01:14.quite a bit richer. But at the other end of the scale,
:01:15. > :01:17.the poor have been getting poorer and for the first time there are
:01:18. > :01:20.more working families living in poverty than non-working ones. So
:01:21. > :01:23.Oxfam is campaigning to reduce the gap between rich and poor and one
:01:24. > :01:33.way they're suggesting is to have greater taxation of wealth. Should
:01:34. > :01:42.wealth be taxed more? We are not talking about income here
:01:43. > :01:48.at 45%, 50% what it might be. It is about assets, houses about land.
:01:49. > :01:55.James Sproule, good morning. This whole idea of this so-called mansion
:01:56. > :02:00.tax, if somebody has a ?2.5 million house which is amazing for many
:02:01. > :02:06.people outside London and people looking at these figures. RUC richly
:02:07. > :02:15.saying they cannot afford to pay what would amount to ?5,000 a year
:02:16. > :02:20.in tax? I think in London, very often that mansion will be a
:02:21. > :02:26.worker's cottage from Victorian times. If we look at how much the
:02:27. > :02:32.rich are already paying intact, and it is key here in the United
:02:33. > :02:38.Kingdom, less than 1% of the people are counting the people accounting
:02:39. > :02:43.for 25% of income tax. And if you had a business, you would make sure
:02:44. > :02:49.you are nice to those people and make sure they stayed. The people at
:02:50. > :02:53.the top, we don't care if you go somewhere else and for all of us
:02:54. > :02:55.sitting in this audience, we do care. The last thing we want to do
:02:56. > :03:01.is drive away these very high taxpayers. As an economy we have a
:03:02. > :03:08.skewed system. We need to appreciate where we are right now. Also, a
:03:09. > :03:12.couple of things that have come out on this proposal, there are a couple
:03:13. > :03:19.of things but am to mind. One of course is it has been put on the
:03:20. > :03:22.total value of your home. If you have a big mortgage, you don't own
:03:23. > :03:32.it all yet the tax is applied to the whole house. But inflation on houses
:03:33. > :03:36.has cautioned that hasn't it? It is like in 1997, I don't think Ed Balls
:03:37. > :03:45.and Gordon Brown put a tax on pensions in order to ruin them, but
:03:46. > :03:48.that is what happened. The UK pension system was well funded up
:03:49. > :03:57.and other point and attacks ruined it. What we are saying is they are
:03:58. > :04:04.happy to see the capital value of everybody's house across the country
:04:05. > :04:09.crumble and that is a poor policy. Dr Faiza Shaheen, you heard what he
:04:10. > :04:14.says. Is this an economic case or is it a moral case you making? We're
:04:15. > :04:22.talking about assets. It is both. We talk about skewness taxes and wealth
:04:23. > :04:27.inequality is very high so the top 10% have 500 times what the bottom
:04:28. > :04:31.10% have. Often a third of the population have nothing and are in
:04:32. > :04:36.negative equity. We need to be doing something about inequality and we
:04:37. > :04:41.need to do something about the unfair burden in which public sector
:04:42. > :04:46.and austerity is being paid. How much would this race, how much would
:04:47. > :04:50.you tax of those oligarchs, tremendously wealthy people, what we
:04:51. > :04:56.do take from them? I think the mansion tax is a good idea, the land
:04:57. > :05:00.value tax. From an economist's point of view, these are valuable because
:05:01. > :05:08.they don't skewed incentives to work harder. Economists would say land
:05:09. > :05:17.and housing because... Not all economists would say that. But in
:05:18. > :05:22.terms of wealth taxes. Those people who had these assets would not
:05:23. > :05:28.choose this at all. Let her finish. There is plenty of time. People who
:05:29. > :05:32.have those assets would not choose them, this is a small proportion of
:05:33. > :05:38.the population who have gained the most from growth, have suffered the
:05:39. > :05:46.least from austerity. This needs to be balanced. There are a number of
:05:47. > :05:48.consequences for our society. It is undermining our ability. Health
:05:49. > :05:52.problems, crime and all kinds of issues and our economic stability
:05:53. > :06:02.relies on lower levels of inequality. How much, Daniel Hannan,
:06:03. > :06:07.how much is that holding us back? Wealth taxes don't read this --
:06:08. > :06:12.re-dispute wealth as much as they read dispute people. In France they
:06:13. > :06:16.had a higher rate of tax, people left they went to Belgium, they came
:06:17. > :06:20.to London and paid their taxes to the UK Exchequer instead of the
:06:21. > :06:26.French Treasury. The rest of the French population has had to pick up
:06:27. > :06:34.the tab. That was income tax, this is about wealth. As James said, you
:06:35. > :06:41.have 1% of people paying, according to the Treasury figures 29.8%, you
:06:42. > :06:45.want to make sure they are paying taxes in the UK so the rest of us
:06:46. > :06:50.don't have to pay taxes instead of them. If you have lower, flatter,
:06:51. > :06:59.simple tax rates, the proportion paid by the rich increases. The
:07:00. > :07:03.point here on tax, tax is not the only thing we need to do. I don't
:07:04. > :07:08.agree that actually by not having the tax would seem more tax being
:07:09. > :07:13.raised at the top. What we need to do, a lot of people on low pay, they
:07:14. > :07:18.get tax credits instead of paying tax back. We have to do something
:07:19. > :07:20.within the pay structure to make sure this wealth cannot be
:07:21. > :07:25.accumulated at the top in the wake it is. That is another income, but
:07:26. > :07:32.we're talking about what people have. What about land tax? Land tax
:07:33. > :07:40.is helpful because you cannot avoid it. How would it work? People will
:07:41. > :07:44.avoid paying tax, we don't celebrate people avoiding tax or say, because
:07:45. > :07:50.you avoid payments, we're not going to charge you for that any more. I
:07:51. > :07:58.am persuaded by taxes on property rather than income. We should have
:07:59. > :08:05.lower taxes that everybody. What about public services? The great
:08:06. > :08:08.thing is to lower the rate to the extent you start generating more
:08:09. > :08:13.revenue, which happened here in the 1980s and it happened in the US. I
:08:14. > :08:19.know it is a counterintuitive idea, but you get to the level where taxes
:08:20. > :08:25.are lower so people are working longer and they stay here. The most
:08:26. > :08:29.common forms of tax avoidance or early retirement, working shorter
:08:30. > :08:35.hours or emigration. And that is in nobody's in trust. A lot of women
:08:36. > :08:41.out there who are mothers will not say working fewer hours is to do
:08:42. > :08:46.with tax avoidance. This is not about income it is about liberating
:08:47. > :08:53.money into the economy. In Germany, a lot of this money goes into
:08:54. > :08:58.industry. It is about Ferraris, Ming vases and land. It is a fair thing
:08:59. > :09:05.to say, if we have to raise some money, where do you get it from? We
:09:06. > :09:10.know tobacco tax disincentive rises smoking, if you're for an
:09:11. > :09:17.alternative, taxes on consumption, I am up for that but Dr Faiza Shaheen
:09:18. > :09:22.wants more taxes in general on the rich. The danger of that is the rest
:09:23. > :09:27.of us end up paying more because the rich find clever accountants or
:09:28. > :09:34.move. We used to do that with rates, and we have not revalued since the
:09:35. > :09:42.early 90s. I am sure the man from Oxfam, you are dying to come in
:09:43. > :09:47.here, what is your response? Oxfam figures showed five families own
:09:48. > :09:52.more wealth than 13 million people. Five families own more wealth than
:09:53. > :09:57.13 million people. At the top is the Duke of Westminster whose wealth is
:09:58. > :10:01.rooted in owning Mayfair. We are not too worried about Mayfair being
:10:02. > :10:04.flown to Switzerland, we think it will stay here. Those at the top
:10:05. > :10:09.already get treated very nicely, thank you. We are concerned about
:10:10. > :10:15.half a million people using food banks. We say, in these tough times,
:10:16. > :10:18.it is those with the broadest shoulders who should make the
:10:19. > :10:23.greatest contribution. I have heard this phrase a lot of times, the
:10:24. > :10:30.broadest shoulders. Right now I see nothing stopping moving back towards
:10:31. > :10:36.some sort of tax until the pips squeak type motion. We tried that in
:10:37. > :10:41.the 70s and did not work very well. You disagree with Christine Lingard
:10:42. > :10:46.from the IMF who says will come and -- wealth and income has got out of
:10:47. > :10:50.control. You are disagreeing with mainstream economists who point out
:10:51. > :10:55.that inequality has got out of control. Is there any limit to what
:10:56. > :11:02.you would place on levels of inequality? 50% tax is the maximum
:11:03. > :11:11.amount it should be. Nobody should be working more for the state and
:11:12. > :11:13.for themselves. What about the Duke of Westminster, could he contribute
:11:14. > :11:19.a bit more, he probably could without queueing in a foodbank? Does
:11:20. > :11:23.he contribute a lot, the answer is yes. We have a situation in this
:11:24. > :11:29.country where we have a high deficit and debt. The way to get out of it
:11:30. > :11:35.is to build and invest. If we take money out of the economy in the form
:11:36. > :11:43.of taxation and spending now, is short-term spending. Move money out
:11:44. > :11:47.of property, this is the argument? I don't know where it all come from.
:11:48. > :11:52.People will sell their house, they cannot sell a room. We will see an
:11:53. > :11:56.economy that cannot invest for the long-term and get of deficit problem
:11:57. > :12:05.it will not be an economy or society. Some of the people in that
:12:06. > :12:10.top five are self-made, they have worked really hard. There are
:12:11. > :12:17.brothers who started in their factory in Mumbai. Does this kill
:12:18. > :12:24.aspiration or ambition, you don't buy that? No, and neither does
:12:25. > :12:30.Warren Buffett. It is wonderful to make wealth, but it is wonderful to
:12:31. > :12:39.give a little back. And in a decent society, we don't allow people to
:12:40. > :12:43.fall into desperation. It is not the politics of envy, it is the call for
:12:44. > :12:50.a better world. The Pope was right when he said it is time to tackle
:12:51. > :12:56.the inequality crisis. Kevin Byrne, self-made man, agreeing with that? I
:12:57. > :13:01.am agreeing with some aspects of it. When we talk about incentive, it is
:13:02. > :13:07.a big thing to me. Most self-made people, entrepreneurs, they are
:13:08. > :13:11.doing it for money, but most people are doing it for recognition or
:13:12. > :13:15.something else. What the government is doing is, it is understanding
:13:16. > :13:19.most people are not doing this for money and they are abusing people.
:13:20. > :13:26.Why should I and someone who has worked incredibly hard... You don't
:13:27. > :13:32.become an Olympian by getting up at 9am every morning, you don't become
:13:33. > :13:36.a successful businessmen by putting yourself under huge burdens to
:13:37. > :13:42.become successful. Why should I or my children have to put it on the
:13:43. > :13:48.table, disproportionately so for people who haven't worked as hard as
:13:49. > :13:57.I have? I don't understand that. Kevin? To some extent I sympathise,
:13:58. > :14:02.but my father held three jobs down. He had a day job as a salesman, he
:14:03. > :14:08.worked in a bar and a third job. We lived close to the edge of poverty.
:14:09. > :14:16.He worked from morning till night to try to keep food on our table. It is
:14:17. > :14:22.not about working hard. It is social inequality is what we have to
:14:23. > :14:29.address. You are a Christian, what about the Bible, Jesus giving wealth
:14:30. > :14:34.away and the eye of a needle and all that? You must have looked at that
:14:35. > :14:40.and thought about them? It is very challenging, I am not an incredibly
:14:41. > :14:45.wealthy person, I have aspirations to get to that and I work hard and
:14:46. > :14:50.people who work hard should deserve the reward. But it is a delicate
:14:51. > :14:53.situation because as a Christian you look at people in poverty and am I
:14:54. > :14:59.saying shouldn't everyone contribute towards the well-being of other
:15:00. > :15:04.people? Course we should. If you take away from people like me who
:15:05. > :15:07.want to work hard and have great ideas and ambitions, if you start
:15:08. > :15:12.saying, we will not reward you, we will Pina lies you, Pina lies you
:15:13. > :15:16.and Pina lies you and then take it away from your children, where is
:15:17. > :15:24.the incentive for me to go and generate wealth? Where is the
:15:25. > :15:27.incentive to go and generate jobs? They are saying it is a big mess
:15:28. > :15:30.about that end, but I think it is a mess at the bottom end as well, the
:15:31. > :15:35.benefit system. I don't earn anything like a benefit amount of
:15:36. > :15:39.salary, but I feel strongly that they should not have 50%, not
:15:40. > :15:44.knowing what it's being spent on. Often it's not being spent on
:15:45. > :15:47.anything useful. Some people that are on benefits, they just don't
:15:48. > :15:51.want to work and can't be bothered. Why should those people, who really
:15:52. > :15:56.can, be taxed so highly? I think it's really wrong. Is that
:15:57. > :16:02.significant, the percentage? I don't know. Some ladies agreeing with you.
:16:03. > :16:11.Any more hands up? There is a very simple stick solution. That is if
:16:12. > :16:13.the G8, the G7, that they agree to lower taxes globally, that would
:16:14. > :16:20.empower the individual, the wealthy and those that are not so wealthy
:16:21. > :16:25.and cause the economy to grow. That is what we really want in recession.
:16:26. > :16:33.The G8 agreeing on something? There is a point alluded to by the lady up
:16:34. > :16:39.there, all of this tax is paid, it is not what they would call ring
:16:40. > :16:46.fenced into people that need it, it is put into more government IT
:16:47. > :16:52.schemes, it is put into bonds, it is put into HS2, they feel it just
:16:53. > :16:58.disappears into a big Larkhall. -- black hole. That's the problem,
:16:59. > :17:04.isn't it? Except up the road you have a fantastic kids psychiatric
:17:05. > :17:07.unit. It costs ?750 a night. If you have a kid with schizophrenia, it
:17:08. > :17:11.will keep your child alive and keep your family together. This is what
:17:12. > :17:14.we are paying for with our taxes. The Duke of Westminster is a very
:17:15. > :17:18.good example, what we have lost is the habits and the culture of
:17:19. > :17:25.philanthropy that were there in the 19th century. If 0.5% of the people
:17:26. > :17:29.of the South watched four hours less television a week and gave that in
:17:30. > :17:36.volunteering, that would be 25,000 new full-time volunteering jobs. If
:17:37. > :17:41.we all gave 1% more, that would unlock ?4 billion worth. If we can't
:17:42. > :17:49.but that standard, Christian or not, taxes, taxes, and taxes again. It is
:17:50. > :17:53.much better morally to make a decision yourself to dispose of your
:17:54. > :17:56.assets, there is no morality and having it confiscated from you.
:17:57. > :18:00.Oxfam, if you took away the wealthy people, you would have a more equal
:18:01. > :18:03.society, but it would not be more equal because anyone was better
:18:04. > :18:08.off, it would be because the wealthy have gone somewhere else. Surely
:18:09. > :18:12.what we should be doing is raising the standard of the majority of
:18:13. > :18:15.people, not worrying about the very rich. If we all believe that wealth
:18:16. > :18:20.taxes would make the worst of better off, that would be the case.
:18:21. > :18:23.Everywhere it has been tried in the world, you look at these third World
:18:24. > :18:26.countries that have very high tax rates, you find that the poor are
:18:27. > :18:31.much worse off than in countries where they don't. I think a lot of
:18:32. > :18:36.myths are perpetuated on this subject. Of course, it depends what
:18:37. > :18:39.level you place taxes, the idea is not to simply take all your wealth
:18:40. > :18:43.suddenly, it is to have a progressive wealth tax system. In
:18:44. > :18:48.terms of incentives, we can talk about incentives, there is a low
:18:49. > :18:51.incentive problem with wealth taxes. We are also thinking about the
:18:52. > :18:53.aspirations of young people growing up that don't live in a great
:18:54. > :18:56.neighbourhood, that don't have a parent that happened to have a good
:18:57. > :19:00.idea and make a lot of money. We do have to think about the trade-offs.
:19:01. > :19:08.You have to think about the kind of society that we want to live in.
:19:09. > :19:11.Last word? Most of the poor people in Britain work. Most people
:19:12. > :19:14.claiming benefits work. So we are talking about the dinner ladies, we
:19:15. > :19:19.are talking about cleaners that wake-up earlier than the
:19:20. > :19:20.stockbrokers to clean the offices before the stockbrokers arrived. We
:19:21. > :19:31.want to give them a fair shout. If you have something to say about
:19:32. > :19:37.that debate, please do so. Log onto bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions and follow
:19:38. > :19:44.the link to where you can join the discussion online. You can also
:19:45. > :19:49.contribute on Twitter. We are also debating if we should pay
:19:50. > :19:52.reparations for slavery and if illness can be cured by praying.
:19:53. > :19:58.Send us any thoughts you might have about programmer Crow. -- The Big
:19:59. > :20:04.Questions. Earlier this month, the Caribbean
:20:05. > :20:08.nations approved a plan to seek reparations from former slaving
:20:09. > :20:13.nations, including Britain, for the victims of slavery, slave trading,
:20:14. > :20:17.genocide and racial apartheid. As a first step, they have engaged a
:20:18. > :20:23.British firm of solicitors who won ?20 million compensation for the
:20:24. > :20:27.Kenyan victims of torture during the rebellion in the 1950s. Should we
:20:28. > :20:34.pay reparations for slavery, for the evil of slavery? Let me ask you,
:20:35. > :20:39.first, what is really fascinating about this, what a lot of people
:20:40. > :20:46.have not really focused on, the ongoing effects. There is something
:20:47. > :20:50.you have spoken about before, intergenerational transmission of
:20:51. > :20:55.trauma, tell me about that. Yes, basically, slavery and genocide has
:20:56. > :20:59.impacted not only the historical populations that were kidnapped from
:21:00. > :21:05.Africa, but also those of us who are the descendants of the enslaved
:21:06. > :21:08.today. It's not only about trauma and multi-generational oppression,
:21:09. > :21:13.the whole discussion around wealth, there has been unjust enrichment to
:21:14. > :21:19.Britain and there has also been unjust impoverishment that has been
:21:20. > :21:24.passed throughout generations. Part of the legacy is this huge
:21:25. > :21:29.inequality that we see today between the descendants of the enslaved us
:21:30. > :21:33.and the descendants of the enslaved. And psychological scars that have
:21:34. > :21:42.had societal effects, ongoing economic affects. What are the
:21:43. > :21:46.psychological scars? It is not knowing who we are. It is a lack of
:21:47. > :21:52.connection. It is a lack of identity, a lack of nationhood which
:21:53. > :21:56.makes us human beings, essentially. It is not being rooted. It is being
:21:57. > :22:02.considered minority populations when we come from global majorities. It's
:22:03. > :22:05.about having a second-class status and citizenship wherever we have
:22:06. > :22:09.been located as a result of this dispersal and the population that
:22:10. > :22:15.happened, originally in Africa. There is a phenomenon as well that
:22:16. > :22:21.you believe really does exist, post-traumatic slave syndrome? To
:22:22. > :22:24.something I have not coined, but many of our social theorist 's,
:22:25. > :22:31.psychologist some psychiatrists have been looking at some of the negative
:22:32. > :22:36.legacies that we have internalised. The internalisation of racism, self
:22:37. > :22:39.hater, anti-African sentiment, prejudice and discrimination, a
:22:40. > :22:45.loathing of ourselves. Self-loathing? A lack of esteem,
:22:46. > :22:49.self-loathing, not being proud of who we are and our heritage, not
:22:50. > :22:54.being proud of our African ancestry, changing our looks to emulate
:22:55. > :22:59.Caucasian beauty ideals. These are some of the real legacies today in
:23:00. > :23:05.terms of the psychology. We also have to look at the rates of mental
:23:06. > :23:12.health illness. Is all routes back to slavery? Can I ask you, as well,
:23:13. > :23:16.you don't know each other, but it is wonderful you are both on the
:23:17. > :23:25.programme, how is it affecting you, Fernne, slavery? A woman in 2014? It
:23:26. > :23:30.is very important, what Esther has been saying about post-traumatic
:23:31. > :23:35.slave syndrome and the trauma it has caused through the ages. It has
:23:36. > :23:39.affected me. I have needed people to help me to get to where I am today.
:23:40. > :23:47.I think if they hadn't done that, I would not be talking to you today.
:23:48. > :23:53.You have been lucky? I've been very lucky in love I have been helped to
:23:54. > :23:57.be where I am today by people -- I have been very lucky in that I have
:23:58. > :24:01.been helped to where I am today by the people that are aware of the
:24:02. > :24:07.problems that Esther has raised. You have had to battle against that?
:24:08. > :24:12.Against racism in particular. As a result of slavery? Absolutely.
:24:13. > :24:17.Daniel Hannan, one of the things which is most egregious about this
:24:18. > :24:24.is the fact that the slave is at the time of abolition were paid enormous
:24:25. > :24:29.amounts of money, huge amounts paid to slave owners, the equivalent of
:24:30. > :24:35.at least ?15.5 billion today. So, why shouldn't the people that are
:24:36. > :24:39.still suffering have reparations? Because I am descended from slaves,
:24:40. > :24:42.you are descended from slaves, everybody here is and everybody
:24:43. > :24:49.watching at home is. Slavery was universal. We are also all descended
:24:50. > :24:54.from slave owners. Slavery was practised in China, India, Arabia,
:24:55. > :24:57.Africa, by the Aztecs, by the Pacific Islanders, Muslims enslaved
:24:58. > :25:03.Christians, Christians enslaved Muslims. Therefore, if you are
:25:04. > :25:06.looking at paying reparations, anyone whom you choose to pay is
:25:07. > :25:11.statistically certain to be descended both from the owners and
:25:12. > :25:15.the slaves. There were 3000 black slave owners in the US on the eve of
:25:16. > :25:18.the Civil War. We are, if you like, all in this together. Therefore it
:25:19. > :25:22.is very difficult now to look at a population, I am not talking about
:25:23. > :25:26.continuing slavery, which is a huge issue and where we could be doing a
:25:27. > :25:30.great deal, but if you are looking at past slavery, it is a question of
:25:31. > :25:41.how far back you want to go. We are all slavers. Yellow rattle we are
:25:42. > :25:46.not all descendants of enslaved peoples and enslavers. I think that
:25:47. > :25:51.is falsifying history and minimising the seriousness of what we're
:25:52. > :25:54.talking about. Enslaved and has happened to African peoples and
:25:55. > :25:57.people of African descent, that is something that is different and
:25:58. > :26:02.unparalleled in human history. That is the starting point for this
:26:03. > :26:06.conversation. It's very cheap to say, well, we have all been
:26:07. > :26:10.enslaved. Right now, I don't have the same life chances and life
:26:11. > :26:13.experiences of many people who might even be sitting in this audience. I
:26:14. > :26:19.feel we need to understand this history. I am not saying we haven't
:26:20. > :26:25.all been impacted, but just to say we have all been impacted the same
:26:26. > :26:34.is really not the starting point. Bernadette? I am going to play
:26:35. > :26:38.devils advocate. I think we really need to be careful here. Has all
:26:39. > :26:43.that got to do with slavery? Being in a mental institution? I a
:26:44. > :26:46.champion of volunteers, I am a motivational speaker that visits
:26:47. > :26:51.prisons twice a week. Some of the lads in there, their crimes are not
:26:52. > :26:57.because I was a slave 150 years ago. At some point, yes, of course we all
:26:58. > :27:01.know about slavery, bad things happen, bad things happened to me,
:27:02. > :27:06.but you don't walk around with it. You have to move on. We have to rise
:27:07. > :27:10.above it now and start moving on and thinking, OK, what are we going to
:27:11. > :27:15.do in the next 150 years so that our children can say, this happened to
:27:16. > :27:18.my great, great grandfather but wow, look what they have done now.
:27:19. > :27:22.We've got to start rising above this and get away from you only this, you
:27:23. > :27:27.owe me that, going back. Of course, every black person knows that it is
:27:28. > :27:31.really difficult in certain areas. What about the families that have
:27:32. > :27:37.profited from it, the families that are still enriched, the tobacco and
:27:38. > :27:42.sugar millionaires? And I going to knock on all of the manor houses in
:27:43. > :27:47.Dorset? Hello, give me this. Where does it end? Yes, some of them are
:27:48. > :27:51.named and shamed, they are all in Google, they have been named and
:27:52. > :27:55.shamed, almost an apology by Tony Blair. But no British Government is
:27:56. > :28:02.going to apologise because it would open the floodgates. Almost an
:28:03. > :28:07.apology, it was not made by Tony Blair. He expressed regret. There is
:28:08. > :28:11.a reason why, I'm a realistic person, let's be honest, it will be
:28:12. > :28:17.another 150 years before they apologise and hand out checks. How
:28:18. > :28:20.are they going to do it? We are not asking for checks to be handed out,
:28:21. > :28:26.it's not about money, that cheapens the debate. You do realise the
:28:27. > :28:32.applications of if they apologise. The legal indications? Yes, the
:28:33. > :28:39.compensation, my great, great-grandfather, how are going to
:28:40. > :28:42.do it? That is not we are asking for. They asking for the first time
:28:43. > :28:46.ever that the Western nations involved, the UK, France, Portugal
:28:47. > :28:52.and so on, they sit around a table with 15 heads of government and talk
:28:53. > :28:59.about the issues that plague us now. Then what? The issues that plague us
:29:00. > :29:02.now, what has that got to do with slavery? My dad died last year, he
:29:03. > :29:08.was a millionaire, that never stopped him, he worked hard. This is
:29:09. > :29:12.why we need education. It's very important. One of the things they
:29:13. > :29:17.talk about is education. But what has that got to do with education
:29:18. > :29:30.150 years ago? My dad educated me, five girls, not one of those has
:29:31. > :29:37.gone wrong. All five of us have done well. I don't understand. We are not
:29:38. > :29:42.talking about something that happened 150 years ago, we are
:29:43. > :29:48.talking about the current impact of slavery, colonialism which rings as
:29:49. > :29:59.here into the here and now. That is what we are talking about. Hands up
:30:00. > :30:06.in the audience please. In times of discussing whether African Caribbean
:30:07. > :30:12.countries should get reparation, saying we have all been enslaved,
:30:13. > :30:17.why can't you correct it and show it is not right by doing that and also
:30:18. > :30:21.the money can go into development schemes. It is insane to assume
:30:22. > :30:27.slavery has not got an impact. It is like saying, I made it and say, why
:30:28. > :30:32.didn't you. You could lock up people in domestic bile and is in say, I
:30:33. > :30:38.have made it out, why can't you. So what happened to your forefathers?
:30:39. > :30:42.100%. If you are in an environment where there is self-hate, you
:30:43. > :30:50.brainwashed Caribbean 's and told them they were slaves, then you did
:30:51. > :30:54.not take it out of them. It is as rebuilding ourselves to remove that
:30:55. > :31:02.mindset. You need schemes, things and economic power. Anyone else who
:31:03. > :31:07.wants to make a quick point? Gentlemen at the back. The economic
:31:08. > :31:12.legacy, talking about Jamaica spending more money repaying debt
:31:13. > :31:18.repayments than education and health. How will the Caribbean
:31:19. > :31:23.countries expect to move out from that when they are expecting to do
:31:24. > :31:31.that. The cancellation of debts is one of the demands? It is one of the
:31:32. > :31:38.things we are asking for. It goes beyond that, because the debt is
:31:39. > :31:40.illegitimate. The people of the Caribbean did not owe anything and
:31:41. > :31:47.the reason these debts where imposed on them is a legacy of colonialism
:31:48. > :31:52.that must be collected. But Britain was distant -- difference, we are
:31:53. > :32:01.all descended from slaves, the Greeks did it and between 11 and 17
:32:02. > :32:08.million Africans enslaved. What makes Britain different is we
:32:09. > :32:10.excavated this disgusting business. We were pouring energy, not just
:32:11. > :32:16.into the abolition of our own territory but wiping out the slave
:32:17. > :32:22.trade. Even in a life and death struggle against Napoleon we were
:32:23. > :32:26.trying to stamp out the transatlantic trade from which we
:32:27. > :32:35.derived no gain. Written is different in a very good way. It is
:32:36. > :32:37.not. We talk about abolition but not Britain's commencement into this
:32:38. > :32:45.whole process. We did not commence it. All the wealth generated that
:32:46. > :32:51.help to make Britain great, the British Empire, all of this came
:32:52. > :32:56.from enslavement and colonialism and ill gotten gains. It links to this
:32:57. > :33:01.modern discussion about inequality and the huge gap between nations,
:33:02. > :33:06.not only in terms and Europe but the rest of the world. In particular,
:33:07. > :33:11.Africa and the Caribbean. There was a exist in slavery going on in
:33:12. > :33:18.Africa which had been going on for ever. No, it was not the same. It is
:33:19. > :33:28.a falsification of history. What we had in Africa was systems of Abbas
:33:29. > :33:31.Khan it was very different? This is such a fascinating debate when
:33:32. > :33:37.people have it, but one of the things always brought up, those of
:33:38. > :33:42.Irish extraction for example, 1000 years of British history. Do they
:33:43. > :33:45.have an inter-generation and transmission of trauma? And the
:33:46. > :33:52.British working classes, the Highland clearances, the Mills, the
:33:53. > :33:56.dark Satanic mills and the working-class struggle in the mines.
:33:57. > :34:03.Do those have intergenerational scars? Yes, there are people in
:34:04. > :34:11.those communities who argue that. Do you think they are right? It means
:34:12. > :34:15.we have to understand our distinct history and what has happened to
:34:16. > :34:19.specific groups. It is not about putting it all into the pot and
:34:20. > :34:25.saying we are all oppressed, we are all oppressed differently. It is not
:34:26. > :34:29.about victimhood it is about recognising what happened and how do
:34:30. > :34:35.we repair the damage, which is what the term, reparation means. It is
:34:36. > :34:41.not about compensation, it is how to repair the damage. Francis Davis. I
:34:42. > :34:46.was thinking about the Irish situation and the difference between
:34:47. > :34:50.America well claiming in Irish people, we need to be careful
:34:51. > :34:58.because Britain's track record in some areas is good. 100,000 Croats
:34:59. > :35:06.and Bosnians are left to rot as they came out of Vienna. And people 's
:35:07. > :35:12.bodies on balance sheets in diamond mines in South Africa. We don't have
:35:13. > :35:19.a good record. Who has a perfect record? Nobody, but compared with
:35:20. > :35:26.other countries, and you can think -- include Africa in that. Then you
:35:27. > :35:35.have Pol Pot, which we forget about here. We need to step back and say,
:35:36. > :35:40.this is over now, yes we are sorry and we regret it. We cannot sort it
:35:41. > :35:43.out financially except by overseas relief, debt remission and other
:35:44. > :35:48.ways of looking forward and rebuilding the global economy. But
:35:49. > :35:52.keep looking back and saying this passes down 15 generations does not
:35:53. > :35:57.do anybody any favours. The worst possible reason to embark on
:35:58. > :36:05.overseas aid is to make yourself feel better, the reason to do it is
:36:06. > :36:10.to make things better on the ground. If you do it to assuage your gills,
:36:11. > :36:15.it will make things worse. That is why we should be in Europe backing
:36:16. > :36:26.the Ukrainians and pushing back against your argument! James, I can
:36:27. > :36:34.see from your facial expressions you have been engaged in this debate. It
:36:35. > :36:39.is extremely interesting, we started this off in the car coming here.
:36:40. > :36:43.Daniel, these are terrible evils and Britain was the country that stood
:36:44. > :36:48.by, the Royal Navy which was instrumental in stopping the trade.
:36:49. > :36:52.It is important and should be celebrated. No country was perfect,
:36:53. > :36:58.but Britain was probably better than a lot of other countries. So for us
:36:59. > :37:04.to be the first port of call in demanding reparation is strange. It
:37:05. > :37:10.is not. Slave trade is not a term that comes from us, in the same way
:37:11. > :37:16.Jewish people talk about the Holocaust. It is not a victimhood
:37:17. > :37:22.thing. There are two dimensional as to reparation, internal and
:37:23. > :37:28.external. Internal is what we owe ourselves how we reclaim our agency
:37:29. > :37:35.and self-determination. Then do what the Jewish people do, light candles.
:37:36. > :37:40.There are billions of dollars in maintaining it in compensation, it
:37:41. > :37:52.wasn't just about lighting candles. Should we feel guilty? No, it is not
:37:53. > :37:58.about white guilt. If you have intergenerational transmission of
:37:59. > :38:02.trauma, the was a story about Dominic Cumberbatch, his great,
:38:03. > :38:10.great who was a slave owner. Is there a translation of guilt? I
:38:11. > :38:16.think so and that is why this debate gets closed and minimised. What we
:38:17. > :38:19.want is a conversation so there can be greater understanding in British
:38:20. > :38:25.society as to how we have come to be where we are. What we need to tidy
:38:26. > :38:30.up history is put things that were deleted back in. It is about our
:38:31. > :38:34.community helping one another and passing the world on rather than
:38:35. > :38:42.keep going back, you owe me this, you owe me that. We need to sort
:38:43. > :38:46.ourselves out first. It is both, not one or the other. It is the fact
:38:47. > :38:52.there are people and families today, institutions in Britain today that
:38:53. > :38:59.are basically surviving on ill gotten gains, capital, wealth,
:39:00. > :39:08.assets. Can you see a moment when it is over? Only when there is justice
:39:09. > :39:15.and there hasn't been justice. What does that look like? Why is it hard
:39:16. > :39:20.to recognise the justice cause of African descent? Are we less buying
:39:21. > :39:28.human beings? You are confusing this. Does everybody have a right of
:39:29. > :39:34.recognition of their experience but we just had to forget it and move
:39:35. > :39:39.on? For a long time and people from minority communities fought
:39:40. > :39:43.heroically for everybody to be treated the same. Equality under the
:39:44. > :39:48.law is what defines this country. That is why I find it very sad that
:39:49. > :39:54.you are arguing to be treated differently. That is on paper,
:39:55. > :40:03.statute. Why do we still have inequality, wealth inequality.
:40:04. > :40:08.Should this be, given the horror of it, I don't know that much about it,
:40:09. > :40:15.I have read a couple of books on it, and they are evil and horrific.
:40:16. > :40:21.People being thrown off votes because of insuring 's purposes. --
:40:22. > :40:28.boats. It is wicked in the extreme, should this be a priority? It was an
:40:29. > :40:32.evil part of history. The reason the boats had to keep going is because
:40:33. > :40:35.the women could no longer give birth because they had been so ill
:40:36. > :40:40.treated, they were no longer fertile. And even today, the poorest
:40:41. > :40:48.parts of Africa are those parts from which the slaves were taken. The
:40:49. > :40:54.West African coast, remain the poorest parts. The consequence of
:40:55. > :40:59.this horrible history is still felt today. So anything that people can
:41:00. > :41:04.do, both to acknowledge that injustice, but also to make the
:41:05. > :41:09.world a better place, a fairer place is a good thing to do. Aid is
:41:10. > :41:16.right, in part because we are atoning for our history. And also
:41:17. > :41:21.because it means kids in school and who are alive would otherwise be
:41:22. > :41:26.dead. So the work towards a just world and history, is important.
:41:27. > :41:29.Esther has set it out very well today. Thank you all very much
:41:30. > :41:33.indeed. You can join in all of these debates
:41:34. > :41:52.by logging in: Tell us what you think about this
:41:53. > :41:57.last question, can illness be too awed by praying? We will be in
:41:58. > :42:02.Glasgow next week, Bristol on April six and then after a two-week
:42:03. > :42:12.break, we are down Singh back from York on April 27.
:42:13. > :42:15.On Tuesday it will be the Feast of the Annunciation which celebrates
:42:16. > :42:19.perhaps the greatest miracle of all time, the impregnation of the Virgin
:42:20. > :42:25.Mary by God, resulting in the birth of Jesus nine months later. On a
:42:26. > :42:30.more humble level, some Christians have claimed to witness miraculous
:42:31. > :42:34.-- miraculous events believing people to have been short of
:42:35. > :42:40.physical or mental owner -- illness through the laying on of hands and
:42:41. > :42:43.the simple power of prayer. And we have people here with us in
:42:44. > :42:50.Southampton who said they have witnessed events like this. You have
:42:51. > :42:58.seen this? Yes I have. We believe in spiritualism that healing is brought
:42:59. > :43:08.through the forces and the energies from the spirit world. What have you
:43:09. > :43:11.seemed? A young gentleman who came from Australia, was originally born
:43:12. > :43:18.in Bournemouth, moved to Australia and came back a few years later. He
:43:19. > :43:22.was about 23, came into our church for healing. He looked horrendous.
:43:23. > :43:26.When you look at somebody and there is no colour in their face and they
:43:27. > :43:33.look like they are coming to the end of their lives. What was the
:43:34. > :43:39.diagnosis? He had cancer and he had been sent from the hospital by one
:43:40. > :43:48.of the surgeons. They said there was little if anything they could do. So
:43:49. > :43:52.you prayed? Yes, he came to one of our healers once a week and reported
:43:53. > :43:57.back to the church on a monthly basis. As he reported back to his
:43:58. > :44:06.doctor in Bournemouth hospital, each time he went back, they said to him,
:44:07. > :44:11.the cancer was receding. Now, we truly believe we can work hand in
:44:12. > :44:17.hand with the medical provision. Only spiritual healing healed him.
:44:18. > :44:26.It was a great asset and help to him. People always ask this, why is
:44:27. > :44:35.it never amputees? Can you cure amputees as well? No, we can't.
:44:36. > :44:49.Cancer is pretty impressive. You make an incredible claim. But only
:44:50. > :45:04.so far? This young gentleman was healthy and the cancer had left his
:45:05. > :45:08.body and he was killed. -- cured. Your church group is working with a
:45:09. > :45:14.leading NHS Trust, together, to use the power of prayer and give people
:45:15. > :45:20.a feeling of well-being and peace, that may help their convalescence?
:45:21. > :45:23.Yes, Leeds University we have a joint research project with them and
:45:24. > :45:27.it is in relation to one aspect of healing that is about listening to
:45:28. > :45:30.people. It is about hearing their story, and allowing them to both
:45:31. > :45:35.understand that and authentically live it. Asking the question, can
:45:36. > :45:39.prayer cure illnesses? The answer is yes, but not always. I think the
:45:40. > :45:44.truth is, and I have prayed for people personally... And it has
:45:45. > :45:50.worked? Yes, people have been healed. I have also buried two of my
:45:51. > :45:55.friends, who were dead, but I have buried two of my own friends...
:45:56. > :46:04.That's a relief! I would pray for them. Listen, when it doesn't work,
:46:05. > :46:10.why doesn't it work? If I could ask that question, I could write a book
:46:11. > :46:14.and be quite wealthy and then be taxed. It isn't a magic bullet. It's
:46:15. > :46:19.not a magic thing that you can say, if you do this, this and this, you
:46:20. > :46:27.will end up with this. The way human people work, body, mind and spirit,
:46:28. > :46:32.it is an integrated thing. They have to believe? No, no. Jesus healed
:46:33. > :46:44.people that were not engaged in... We said in the Bible, he made the
:46:45. > :46:51.blind see, he made the deaf here, is that possible? He had a slight
:46:52. > :46:57.advantage as the son of God, that was a help, but one of the key
:46:58. > :47:01.issues for us is that if we never... Say for instance I pray for
:47:02. > :47:05.ten people, two of them are healed, eight of them are left with a sense
:47:06. > :47:11.of wholeness and well-being, is that not a good start? Kevin, is it? It's
:47:12. > :47:17.a great starting point. I pray quite often, I pray for traffic lights to
:47:18. > :47:21.stay green when I drive down the road, for BMW drivers to behave
:47:22. > :47:24.themselves for a few minutes. Sometimes it happens and sometimes
:47:25. > :47:28.it doesn't. In this question, there are two elements of this question
:47:29. > :47:33.and we need to split them out. There is the question, can prayer cure
:47:34. > :47:38.illness? Inherent in that, can prayer cause God to cure illness?
:47:39. > :47:44.Let's take those two things separately. God does not exist,
:47:45. > :47:51.there is no God, there is no fairy being in the sky. The prayer exists.
:47:52. > :47:56.People over there were hissing Prayer as a placebo can work very
:47:57. > :47:59.well. I'm a psychotherapist, and in my psychotherapy work, what I am
:48:00. > :48:02.doing some of the time is placebo and it works very well, persuading
:48:03. > :48:13.people they feel better. At the end of this, I feel better. Elaine,
:48:14. > :48:18.Spiritualist National Union, Ukraine healers? It's quite rigorous? Very
:48:19. > :48:21.rigorous training, Jeff is an approved healer that has gone
:48:22. > :48:28.through training. What are you training, to be a transmitter? To be
:48:29. > :48:36.a transmitter, the energy that comes from infinite intelligence, that we
:48:37. > :48:40.call old. Healing and prayer may not always heal, but they may heal the
:48:41. > :48:46.person that is transcending from one dimensional existence to another, in
:48:47. > :48:50.that they ease their pain, distress and anxiety. You can call that a
:48:51. > :48:56.placebo. I am also a registered nurse and I pray for my patients
:48:57. > :49:00.every day. NHS? No, within industry, but I pray for my patients every
:49:01. > :49:06.day. Some people might say that is like going to the dentist and he has
:49:07. > :49:11.a voodoo dolls. If we believe there is a force in the universe, and
:49:12. > :49:15.energy, we can transmit that energy through thought, prayer or physical
:49:16. > :49:19.actions. There is an excellent book written in the late 1960s called
:49:20. > :49:23.persuasion and healing by an American psychotherapist, Jerome
:49:24. > :49:28.Frank. He voices that view that persuasion is the key bit in healing
:49:29. > :49:31.and persuasion to heal. He's not talking about God or religion, he's
:49:32. > :49:34.not talking about prayer, he saying that people have the ability, if
:49:35. > :49:41.they believe they can heal themselves or be healed, it can
:49:42. > :49:47.help. It's a useful addition? It's interesting, when religious people
:49:48. > :49:50.get on side with this, it tends to be that self limiting illnesses they
:49:51. > :49:56.seem to be able to cure, rather than other things. People do
:49:57. > :50:06.spontaneously recover from cancer. You can't call cancer self-limiting.
:50:07. > :50:13.What was it you have? EU chronic sarcoidosis. It was a prolonged
:50:14. > :50:19.disease, not psychosomatic. I am not really meant to be here now.
:50:20. > :50:27.Basically, someone prayed for me... It went away? They can't even find a
:50:28. > :50:31.trace of it in my blood system. We spoke to a doctor who said it can
:50:32. > :50:36.just go away. But yours went away because of something else? OK, if
:50:37. > :50:41.you Google it, there is a 10% where does not go, it is basically
:50:42. > :50:47.incurable and irreversible. The scarring on the lungs cannot just
:50:48. > :50:51.disappear in that sense. Just to add one little thing, I believe that it
:50:52. > :50:59.is proof that Jesus is real and Jesus is alive. Right. Francis? Is
:51:00. > :51:02.the Jesus you pray to an interventionist? Does he intervene
:51:03. > :51:07.in peoples lives? I think he does it in that so things are so
:51:08. > :51:10.coincidental that they could not possibly be coincidental, rather
:51:11. > :51:15.than sending laser beam kind of things. What do you mean by
:51:16. > :51:19.coincidental? If there were no coincidences, that would be the most
:51:20. > :51:24.monumental coincidence. I was once on top of a hill above the CC, an
:51:25. > :51:26.overwhelming need to pray for a friend of mine that lives in
:51:27. > :51:30.Liverpool that I had not thought about for five years. I came down
:51:31. > :51:36.the hill and sent him a card because I was so that about him and out his
:51:37. > :51:39.boss had come to save the I'm going to suck you in the middle of a wood,
:51:40. > :51:44.I was in the middle of the word, and that cannot be coincidental. But
:51:45. > :51:47.there is something much more significant, no matter how much
:51:48. > :51:50.training you have got, if you are not a qualified psychiatrist you do
:51:51. > :51:53.not want to be playing with religious symbols and language with
:51:54. > :51:59.somebody with a severe mental health challenge because you have no idea
:52:00. > :52:02.what you might be getting into. That is true in every area of life,
:52:03. > :52:07.whether you are a Christian or not about mental illness. When we are
:52:08. > :52:10.talking about if it is possible for the ministry of Jesus to continue,
:52:11. > :52:15.through an ordinary Christian, who has integrity and has compassion, I
:52:16. > :52:29.think... You have been healed as well? I had a really bad back pain
:52:30. > :52:43.for quite a few months. Roll to roll -- Voltorol. I took ID -- are two
:52:44. > :52:49.stops summary prayed for me, I felt a heat in the base of my spine, and
:52:50. > :52:57.I haven't had it since. If you want to say it is a coincidence, let me
:52:58. > :53:01.have another one. I think it's not unreasonable to believe that if
:53:02. > :53:05.there is a God, and some of us will believe there is, he is an
:53:06. > :53:20.interventionist. At the heart of the miracle John -- genre is compassion.
:53:21. > :53:24.Hayley, tell us your story. I have also been cured myself, by evidence
:53:25. > :53:28.-based medicine. A while ago I was walking through the city of Bath and
:53:29. > :53:30.I came upon some faith healers who were handing out literature that
:53:31. > :53:40.said they could cure everything from cancer, AIDS, asthma, MS. I sent
:53:41. > :53:42.that to the advertising standards authority because I felt it was
:53:43. > :53:47.misleading and potentially dangerous. This group of people did
:53:48. > :53:50.not know who they would come into contact with. A lot of people have a
:53:51. > :53:54.mistrust of their doctors. I was worried that it could turn people
:53:55. > :53:57.away from conventional treatment. They agreed and said they could no
:53:58. > :54:01.longer make the claims they were making on their leaflet. I am glad
:54:02. > :54:12.they agreed, because I think it is potentially dangerous. To be fair,
:54:13. > :54:19.you are not suggesting that people do not use conventional methods? You
:54:20. > :54:24.are the icing on the cake? The lady of idiot? I kind of believe that a
:54:25. > :54:31.lot of what you are talking about is actually positivity. Both me and
:54:32. > :54:39.Sarah have a debilitating illness. I have MS, and arthritis. Being
:54:40. > :54:46.positive? Just being positive in my mindset. Yes, sir? This gentleman
:54:47. > :54:50.said he believed in something like the BMWs in the traffic lights, you
:54:51. > :54:54.have to believe in something. But personally, a friend of mine, his
:54:55. > :55:00.mother-in-law was ill, and he asked me, because I am the secretary of
:55:01. > :55:04.the biggest mosque there, she is a practising Christian herself, to
:55:05. > :55:07.pray for me. We prayed, Christian prayers, and believe me she is much
:55:08. > :55:15.better now. The interesting thing is that she believes it was the
:55:16. > :55:20.prayers. That's great, Mohammed and Jesus working together! I just want
:55:21. > :55:24.to say that healing and miracles mainly depend on faith. I am a
:55:25. > :55:28.Christian, in the Bible there were times when the apostles and even
:55:29. > :55:33.Jesus himself were surprised at the lack of faith, and no miracles
:55:34. > :55:37.happen. I believe that, Jesus heals. More than intervening, he is
:55:38. > :55:43.the one that performs miracles. So I think that faith plays a key role in
:55:44. > :55:47.the healing. It's not required, you do not have to believe in God to be
:55:48. > :55:54.healed. It is lovely if you do, it adds another dimension to the
:55:55. > :55:59.energy. Another...? Another dimension to the healing if you have
:56:00. > :56:03.faith. But it is provided by the God force to be used for the betterment
:56:04. > :56:06.of mankind, whether they are Christian, whether they are not,
:56:07. > :56:10.whether they are spiritualist or not, it does not matter. There is a
:56:11. > :56:21.beneficial energy in the universe for us to use for the good of all.
:56:22. > :56:27.Do you want to come in? You know, if we had total answers, there would be
:56:28. > :56:34.no faith. Do you have faith in the European Union? It is evidence
:56:35. > :56:39.-based about the European Union, it is making us poorer. Kevin? One of
:56:40. > :56:43.the sad things about this is, given the state of the NHS at the moment,
:56:44. > :56:46.even the way the government has demolished it, it is no wonder that
:56:47. > :56:51.some people are sadly turning to prayer. The inequity of this. What
:56:52. > :56:59.happens with some of these issues around can prayer cure illness,
:57:00. > :57:03.people turn away, they devalue it. Can prayer cure illness? I
:57:04. > :57:09.absolutely believe it can. I think the sad element of this is that our
:57:10. > :57:13.hearts have grown callous towards God. In this country, in the modern
:57:14. > :57:16.developed countries of the world, if you have a headache you turn to a
:57:17. > :57:21.pill. I've been to third World countries where I have laid my hands
:57:22. > :57:32.on cataracts and they have cleared in front of me. You are a healer?
:57:33. > :57:37.I'm not a kilo! -- healer! I declare they are healed in Jesus's name. And
:57:38. > :57:46.I have seen miracle after miracle. Miracle? What miracle have you seen?
:57:47. > :57:50.Once we went down, in India, me and a guy called Mark, we went into a
:57:51. > :57:54.High Street and there was a guy bandaged from here to hear, or a
:57:55. > :57:58.rickshaw, designed for his hands. I said, let's pray for this guy.
:57:59. > :58:02.Everybody was saying, no, all gods are the same. He said, you call upon
:58:03. > :58:06.your God to heal this man and they didn't. We prayed for this guy and
:58:07. > :58:12.he was jumping up and down. More than that, three days later, he came
:58:13. > :58:22.and sought this out to show he was still healed. Give yourselves a
:58:23. > :58:26.round of applause. The debate will continue online and on Twitter.
:58:27. > :58:28.Extra week we are in Glasgow. Join us then. Goodbye, thanks for
:58:29. > :58:31.watching. Enjoy your Sunday.