:00:10. > :00:10.Today and The Big Questions, democracy, promiscuity and the end
:00:11. > :00:36.of the world. Good morning, I am Nikki Campbell,
:00:37. > :00:37.welcome to The Big Questions, live from Hutchesons' Grammar School in
:00:38. > :00:44.Glasgow. Welcome, all of you, to the big
:00:45. > :00:47.questions! The UK is about to be plunged into a year of political
:00:48. > :00:53.campaigning. Local and European elections in May, the Scottish
:00:54. > :00:57.referendum in September, then the general election in May 2015. We can
:00:58. > :01:05.all look forward to a cause of newspaper coverage, how is of
:01:06. > :01:12.interviews and debate. But many people will not vote, especially if
:01:13. > :01:16.they are under 25 or poor. Less than 1% of all age groups join political
:01:17. > :01:21.parties. So this week the Electoral Commission announced a review of
:01:22. > :01:25.modern voting to tackle what it called the increasingly
:01:26. > :01:29.disenfranchised younger generation. If people do not engage with
:01:30. > :01:34.politics, democracy ceases to be government by the people for the
:01:35. > :01:41.people. Is our democracy working? Willie Sullivan from the electoral
:01:42. > :01:48.reform Society, what has gone wrong? What we have ended up with is
:01:49. > :01:52.government by a very few people, for a very few group of people. People
:01:53. > :01:56.have switched onto that, so we talk about the missing million in
:01:57. > :02:03.Scotland, this 1 million people that never take part in elections. I ran
:02:04. > :02:09.some focus groups with Ipsos MORI, and they said that, you know, they
:02:10. > :02:12.don't vote because politicians are not like them, they do not represent
:02:13. > :02:16.their interests and they basically think they are dishonest. Those
:02:17. > :02:22.people do not count, so they do not vote, so they do not count again. We
:02:23. > :02:28.have a legacy of first past the post... They say nothing changes if
:02:29. > :02:33.you vote, but if you do not vote, nothing will change. They tried it
:02:34. > :02:37.in the past, I guess, and they do not think it is having any effect.
:02:38. > :02:41.And the politicians do not speak to them, because it is a first past the
:02:42. > :02:46.post system, where they speak to swing voters in key seeds. They are
:02:47. > :02:55.ordinary working people who have been neglected. 30% of Westminster
:02:56. > :03:01.went to Oxbridge, 25% to private schools. The Labour Party used to be
:03:02. > :03:06.working people representing themselves, now it is people who
:03:07. > :03:13.work in politics. It was not always working people, Clement Attlee, Tony
:03:14. > :03:17.Benn. Is that the problem? It is just one middle-aged man versus
:03:18. > :03:24.another middle-aged man with another one trying to beat all the others?
:03:25. > :03:29.If you cannot see other people who look like you, who are from where
:03:30. > :03:33.you are from, from your background, or you are talking about issues that
:03:34. > :03:37.can relate to you in your everyday life, how can you put yourself
:03:38. > :03:41.there? You are correct when you are saying that is one of the reasons
:03:42. > :03:45.why people don't get involved in politics, but again, we don't teach
:03:46. > :03:50.young people about politics, we don't teach them in schools about
:03:51. > :03:54.it. Yeah OK, we might teach them and modern studies. We teach them about
:03:55. > :03:58.laws and why they have to behave in a certain way, and what the laws of
:03:59. > :04:02.the land are, but we never teach them who makes the laws and how the
:04:03. > :04:09.laws are made and what that looks like. So therefore you do have a
:04:10. > :04:14.generation gap, but I am telling you that, you know, from my position at
:04:15. > :04:20.NUS, like, people are engaged. They are talking about issues, young
:04:21. > :04:24.people. There is a dissonance there. I have been involved in politics
:04:25. > :04:28.since I was 14, and that speaks volumes. If you go out, even if you
:04:29. > :04:33.go to primary schools and ask them, you know, what sort of world do they
:04:34. > :04:38.want to live in, they are talking about clean space, park space,
:04:39. > :04:44.talking about everyone being treated the same. This is it, there is an
:04:45. > :04:50.engagement, but this whole idea, John Curtice, of civic duty, have we
:04:51. > :04:54.lost that? The first two speakers have talked about what I would call
:04:55. > :04:58.the supply-side problem, which is to say that what is on offer is not
:04:59. > :05:01.important or different enough. It is partly to do with the people, but
:05:02. > :05:06.the Labour Party was never as working class in Parliament as its
:05:07. > :05:08.electorate. But it is to do with a feeling that there is not enough
:05:09. > :05:13.difference between the parties, and that is interesting, the referendum
:05:14. > :05:17.in Scotland may be different. Here it looks as if people do accept that
:05:18. > :05:21.the choice that Scotland will make in September is important, and all
:05:22. > :05:26.the evidence is that people will turn out. But there is also a
:05:27. > :05:30.demand-side problem, and that is that as a population we no longer
:05:31. > :05:37.feel so passionate about politics as we once did. But we do about
:05:38. > :05:41.issues. Yes, but we do not feel passionate about the individual
:05:42. > :05:45.parties. Far fewer of us and say I am Labour, I will go to the polling
:05:46. > :05:48.station come what may. We have to be given more reason than that, and
:05:49. > :05:51.therefore given we are less passionate about politics, we are
:05:52. > :05:57.less likely to join political parties. If, at the same time, we
:05:58. > :06:00.cannot see much difference between the politicians, put those things
:06:01. > :06:03.together, and we end up saying, it really is not worded, I am not that
:06:04. > :06:10.committed to voting and there does not seem to be much point. -- it
:06:11. > :06:13.really is not worth it. It is only when we give the electorate a real
:06:14. > :06:19.choice that they bother to turn out. They do care deeply about local
:06:20. > :06:23.issues like housing, employment and jobs, but they do not care about
:06:24. > :06:27.party politics, because they do not think it will make a difference. In
:06:28. > :06:31.the work I have done, they think the referendum will make a big
:06:32. > :06:36.difference one way or the other, and they will vote in that. People who
:06:37. > :06:41.have told me they have never voted before... So if the issue is big and
:06:42. > :06:47.significant enough... They think it will change something, John is
:06:48. > :06:50.right. It does now have to be significant for people to go to the
:06:51. > :06:56.polls. Charles Kennedy in a minute, but, Stacey, isn't there a problem
:06:57. > :06:58.from people themselves, we are a society that wants instant
:06:59. > :07:04.gratification, and politics isn't about that? It is a long road to
:07:05. > :07:09.change, isn't it? It is an ability to make a change... But it doesn't
:07:10. > :07:14.happen overnight, and we have a society that wants everything now.
:07:15. > :07:18.We do not go to teach people about the political system, we do not
:07:19. > :07:22.teach them what it takes to pass a motion in Parliament, all the things
:07:23. > :07:28.that it needs to go through. Plus, we were talking about... We didn't
:07:29. > :07:32.teach them in the past. I think what we have now is a vertical
:07:33. > :07:36.hierarchical system of government and politics, and we have a
:07:37. > :07:42.horizontal society. We communicate through social media, we get
:07:43. > :07:47.information. We know the elite are not any better than us. Before, they
:07:48. > :07:51.used to control the information... They could do what they wanted. They
:07:52. > :07:56.could set themselves up as being better than us, but they are just
:07:57. > :08:00.like us, human, flawed. But we were just hearing they are not like us
:08:01. > :08:06.and that is the problem. Charles Kennedy! They are like us... I know
:08:07. > :08:12.we do not fit the stereotype of public school or Oxbridge. You were
:08:13. > :08:16.a very young MP. It is hard to envisage now! Go buy some
:08:17. > :08:26.appreciation for Charles being here. Representing Westminster. Good luck!
:08:27. > :08:29.Representing the Highlands in Westminster, big difference. When
:08:30. > :08:34.you went into the House of Commons, did you look around and think, what
:08:35. > :08:40.is this? I was taken aback, because there were people of a post-2nd
:08:41. > :08:46.World War vintage, very distinguished people. We have just
:08:47. > :08:50.lost one of them, Tony Benn, Jim Callaghan, great names, Ted Heath,
:08:51. > :09:00.Michael Foot. I sat in the chamber and listened to them all. As a
:09:01. > :09:06.student of politics, never mind an MP, the big change since then is
:09:07. > :09:10.that most MPs did not possess a fax machine. The internet had not been
:09:11. > :09:18.invented, mobile phones did not exist, rolling news did not exist.
:09:19. > :09:21.All of that has happened, and what I notice is that the communication
:09:22. > :09:27.capacity between the voter and the elected person is now infinite
:09:28. > :09:32.compared with what it was 30 years ago. But the actual quality and
:09:33. > :09:36.quantity, too much of it. The quality of communication has gone
:09:37. > :09:40.down. This is perverse, this is something we need to address. I come
:09:41. > :09:46.back to what I think is a home truth, the Electoral Commission is
:09:47. > :09:50.looking at this, you can use all sorts of gizmos and technologies,
:09:51. > :09:55.well-intentioned ideas to increase participation and ten. But it is
:09:56. > :10:10.like the plague Death Of A Man, Willie le Roux axis selling himself.
:10:11. > :10:15.-- play. Politics has to sell hope. Ann McKechin, you are MP for Glasgow
:10:16. > :10:20.North, still voting for the same old people, propagating the same old
:10:21. > :10:24.policies. I do not fit the stereotype either, I also went to a
:10:25. > :10:30.state school, lived in a council house, and I also had a job before I
:10:31. > :10:33.went into politics. And of course I am a woman, and one of the good
:10:34. > :10:38.things about politics is that there are far more women and from ethnic
:10:39. > :10:42.communities in Westminster. That is a good sign, and more people are
:10:43. > :10:48.communicating with their MPs on a day-to-day basis than ever before.
:10:49. > :10:52.But there is a disconnect, and we need to create a culture of
:10:53. > :10:57.citizenship where everyone participates in democracy. So that
:10:58. > :11:02.is a civic duty. We have a responsibility as politicians, but
:11:03. > :11:07.it is about how, as a society, we need to talk about how we
:11:08. > :11:14.Emmrich... The system is not working any more. Ed Miliband is a good
:11:15. > :11:19.example of someone steeped in politics, his father was a political
:11:20. > :11:22.theorist, his childhood spent in the West London Labour lead, all his
:11:23. > :11:31.jobs have been in politics. Does he look like an ordinary person? We are
:11:32. > :11:35.all different, but he is a younger person, someone who has values, who
:11:36. > :11:40.is intelligent and listens to people. You are towing the party
:11:41. > :11:45.line now. I know Ed Miliband, and he is a decent guy. It is difficult,
:11:46. > :11:50.because as soon as you put the word politician, we become a different
:11:51. > :11:53.set of people, but actually I regard myself as someone who is in our
:11:54. > :11:57.community living and working with people that I represent every day,
:11:58. > :12:03.and I hope I can try and show that in the way I work. One thing to bear
:12:04. > :12:08.in mind is not just a question of where politicians come from, but we
:12:09. > :12:11.are in a world where politicians are professionalised. Charles was a
:12:12. > :12:15.trailblazer in the sense that he became an MP in his 20s, but the
:12:16. > :12:20.truth is that most people now go into politics, get into politics in
:12:21. > :12:23.some way or other in their 20s, not usually in Parliament, but as a
:12:24. > :12:28.special adviser to a minister, working for a party or whatever.
:12:29. > :12:34.Alongside that, they begin to learn the tricks of the trade, and one of
:12:35. > :12:38.the tricks... The dark arts! It is learning how not to answer the
:12:39. > :12:42.questions that are put to them. One of the things we are saying in
:12:43. > :12:47.politics, some of the protest voting going on for UKIP, one of the things
:12:48. > :12:51.that UKIP is saying, look, you hate politicians, both for us! One of the
:12:52. > :12:56.things that people feel about Nigel Farage, whether you like him or not,
:12:57. > :13:00.is that it sounds as though he is saying what he believes, whereas I
:13:01. > :13:04.think people often get the feeling that many of our politicians have
:13:05. > :13:08.learned the professional art of the interview, the presentation in order
:13:09. > :13:14.to avoid embarrassments to themselves, but as a result it
:13:15. > :13:20.doesn't necessarily sound authentic. I have not come to Carl yet, the
:13:21. > :13:22.tricks of the trade, you are in the Scottish Youth Parliament, how are
:13:23. > :13:27.you getting on learning the tricks of the trade? In our Scottish Youth
:13:28. > :13:32.Parliament, we do things differently. We have heard that
:13:33. > :13:37.before! We talk about issues and campaigns, and we spend a lot of
:13:38. > :13:42.time listening. You don't talk about politics? We talk about things that
:13:43. > :13:46.are important to people, and we are talking about leaders being younger,
:13:47. > :13:50.but actually the policies they are coming up with, democracy is working
:13:51. > :13:54.for older people in this country, anyone with a pension, anyone who
:13:55. > :13:59.gets the winter fuel allowance, TV allowance. It is working for them,
:14:00. > :14:05.but for younger people democracy is a complete turn-off. Why bother
:14:06. > :14:10.turning out to vote for someone who will cut your... I mean, the Liberal
:14:11. > :14:18.Democrats are examples, Jewish and fees tripled, sacrificing the longer
:14:19. > :14:24.-- tuition fees tripled, sacrificing the younger electorate. I agree with
:14:25. > :14:29.you, I have voted accordingly. You increased the youth vote and then
:14:30. > :14:34.dropped that policy in coalition. Nick Clegg has himself apologised,
:14:35. > :14:39.saying that was an error. But you and I, in the radio context, John's
:14:40. > :14:43.point about not answering the question and we all suffer
:14:44. > :14:46.accordingly, I answered a direct question a couple of years ago about
:14:47. > :14:51.the single currency. Kennedy, are you in favour of it? Do you not
:14:52. > :14:56.think you were wrong? I said, yes, looking back, I was wrong, and he
:14:57. > :15:03.ran it and run it as a clip. I remember. And it did me no harm
:15:04. > :15:16.whatsoever! The son kept rising in the east. -- sun. I remember the
:15:17. > :15:21.massive response of people saying how amazing, how wonderful, a
:15:22. > :15:27.politician who answers the question. Why didn't you pass them on to me? I
:15:28. > :15:32.rebelled against the party line on the vote in a ruck and also Trident.
:15:33. > :15:39.I think it is becoming much more the norm -- the vote on Iraq. Not if you
:15:40. > :15:45.want to get on and climb the greasy pole... I think there is hope. There
:15:46. > :15:49.are people who want to change the system. The referendum, for younger
:15:50. > :15:55.people, I have never since many younger people interested, wanting
:15:56. > :15:58.to vote. 416 and 17-year-olds, they are some of most interesting people
:15:59. > :16:07.such the 16 and 17-year-olds. If we can start getting people into
:16:08. > :16:13.vogue to recognise that voting can make a change -- in to vote. What
:16:14. > :16:20.issues across the UK would get people engaged? So that when they
:16:21. > :16:27.are in their 50s, 60s, 70s, they will think it is important to vote?
:16:28. > :16:31.It is local politics. For young people, employment, youth services,
:16:32. > :16:37.education, these are important things which don't get as much air
:16:38. > :16:45.time. For older people, it is childcare. Gentleman at the back,
:16:46. > :16:49.good morning. One tick of the yes box would dissolve 26 unelected
:16:50. > :17:00.bishops in the House of Lords and any number of hereditary peers...
:17:01. > :17:05.That is democracy in action. It is a massive... The second-biggest
:17:06. > :17:09.unelected chamber after the one in China, in the world. Utterly
:17:10. > :17:21.ridiculous. Any other points? Charles Kennedy
:17:22. > :17:25.made an important point, we need to sell people hope. That is what
:17:26. > :17:30.politicians are not doing. I think the great thing about the referendum
:17:31. > :17:33.coming up is that at last people in Scotland have understood we have a
:17:34. > :17:38.chance of changing things. That is a terrific thing. Without making this
:17:39. > :17:42.about that particular referendum debate come because we walk the line
:17:43. > :17:46.of impartiality on that, I appreciate what you are saying, we
:17:47. > :17:53.are trying to talk about politics in general and you make a good point.
:17:54. > :17:56.The problem with politics nowadays, politicians are too remote from the
:17:57. > :17:59.general public. When I was a youngster, I went to hustings with
:18:00. > :18:07.my mother and father. Regardless of the fact that politics at a 40 new
:18:08. > :18:11.did not particularly interest me, I was dragged along -- as a
:18:12. > :18:20.14-year-old. I got to know the local MP. No one would go now. There was a
:18:21. > :18:25.meeting in full kirk recently with one or two from the Scottish
:18:26. > :18:29.Parliament -- in Falkirk and it was open to the public, and only 78
:18:30. > :18:36.people attended. I thought that was horrendous. There are multiple
:18:37. > :18:40.political problems in a town like Falkirk. Basically the problems is
:18:41. > :18:45.the politicians are too remote. It is interesting. The decline of the
:18:46. > :18:50.political meeting means the interaction between the public and
:18:51. > :18:53.all additions is not face-to-face. In all honesty, there were not
:18:54. > :19:00.probably many 14-year-olds who were being dragged to the hustings, even
:19:01. > :19:03.30 or 40 years ago. So far as what the commission is going to look at,
:19:04. > :19:10.should we be voting by the internet, at weekends, etc, we tried
:19:11. > :19:15.a whole load of experiments in local elections about a decade ago. We
:19:16. > :19:19.discovered that the only way in which we could increase turnout by
:19:20. > :19:23.changing the method was the old-fashioned thing of snail mail.
:19:24. > :19:28.Getting people to vote by post. Further down the track we discovered
:19:29. > :19:32.there was a problem with that, there seemed to be a risk that some people
:19:33. > :19:35.were harvesting the votes of other people and engaging in electoral
:19:36. > :19:40.fraud. So we have reined back from that. Problem is that nobody has
:19:41. > :19:45.found a way of changing the way in which we vote, other than going to a
:19:46. > :19:49.polling station. That gets more people to go to the polls and it is
:19:50. > :19:53.secure. At the end of the day, the crucial thing is it is not so much
:19:54. > :19:57.what politicians talk about, it is the choice they offer. One of the
:19:58. > :20:01.problems that face all democracies is that because we live in a more
:20:02. > :20:07.globalised world, where what one country does depends on what other
:20:08. > :20:13.countries do, it has become more difficult for politicians to provide
:20:14. > :20:24.a big story. The Labour Party is no longer offering -- offering
:20:25. > :20:30.socialism and the Conservative Party capitalism. Thank you, we will move
:20:31. > :20:32.on. If you have something to say about that debate, log on to
:20:33. > :20:36.bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions, and follow the link to where you can
:20:37. > :20:38.join in the discussion online. Or contribute on Twitter. We're also
:20:39. > :20:44.debating live this morning from Glasgow: Should the morning-after
:20:45. > :20:47.pill be available in advance? Are the end times imminent? So get
:20:48. > :20:51.tweeting or e-mailing on those topics now or send us any other
:20:52. > :20:55.ideas or thoughts you may have about the show.
:20:56. > :21:00.This week NICE, the National Institute for health and Clinical
:21:01. > :21:03.Excellence, issued new guidance for GPs and pharmacies allowing them to
:21:04. > :21:09.give young women easier access to the morning-after pill. Now women
:21:10. > :21:13.under 25, including girls under 16, will be able to stock up on the
:21:14. > :21:16.morning-after pill in advance and for free. NICE says its aim is to
:21:17. > :21:19.reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies but critics fear it will
:21:20. > :21:26.encourage promiscuity and spread sexually transmitted diseases.
:21:27. > :21:32.Should the morning-after pill be available in advance?
:21:33. > :21:46.Surely every child should be a wanted child and if the morning
:21:47. > :21:54.after pill stops an unwanted child... The problem is we live in a
:21:55. > :21:57.society that has such a concept of an unwanted child, we live in a
:21:58. > :22:01.society that is encouraging young people to break the law, underage
:22:02. > :22:05.sex, and not take the consequences of their actions. I did not get the
:22:06. > :22:08.chance to say this is one of the reasons why some of us are
:22:09. > :22:14.disenfranchised. The whole ethos of the country has changed. We talk
:22:15. > :22:18.about democracy and we forget that God's law has got to undermine
:22:19. > :22:23.democracy. These kinds of innovations of the last few years,
:22:24. > :22:27.where young people have been highly sexualised and it is routine to just
:22:28. > :22:35.break the law... Young people have always had sex. Usually within
:22:36. > :22:40.marriage. There have always been unwanted babies. It was never made
:22:41. > :22:48.an OK thing to do. Do you think that word should be brought back,
:22:49. > :22:52.illegitimate? It is a side issue. It is a distraction and a way of
:22:53. > :22:56.pulling down the argument. The key argument is, are we living in a
:22:57. > :22:59.healthy society, when young people are being taught that the
:23:00. > :23:02.responsible thing to do with regards to sex is not to wait until you find
:23:03. > :23:06.somebody want to marry and be with for the rest of your life and raise
:23:07. > :23:11.children, the responsible thing is to sleep around and make sure you
:23:12. > :23:19.don't have a baby, that is the only message to get. It is an outrageous
:23:20. > :23:27.message to give. Can I add one thing, I am here is a repetitive...
:23:28. > :23:31.Scottish this at this -- bishops are composite in this. They have not
:23:32. > :23:33.told us we should not be voting for members of Parliament, Scottish
:23:34. > :23:38.Westminster, who vote for these immoral issues. And present
:23:39. > :23:42.themselves for holy Communion. The bishops have a duty to say, you
:23:43. > :23:46.can't come to holy Communion if you are going to go against God 's law
:23:47. > :23:52.so publicly and in a disgraceful way. They are not doing it. The
:23:53. > :23:54.question was asked, should it be administered before having sex, I
:23:55. > :24:01.will answer a question, the answer is yes. We already use preventative
:24:02. > :24:07.measures and medicine when it comes to the window, you stock up on cold
:24:08. > :24:12.and cough medicine. You stock up on paracetamol. We give vaccines and
:24:13. > :24:19.immunisation. This is not about a cold. No, but listen to what I am
:24:20. > :24:25.saying. If, for instance, a young woman this is about a woman 's
:24:26. > :24:32.choice... Be it under the age of 16. If you let me finish. This is about
:24:33. > :24:37.a woman's choice. Quite clearly this debate is about that. We need to be
:24:38. > :24:40.making sure that young women can make informed decisions about their
:24:41. > :24:46.bodies, and make decisions that are based on what is right for them, not
:24:47. > :24:57.on what is right for anyone else. OK, you have said... We do not apply
:24:58. > :25:01.that standard of morale due to anything else. You can't say, it is
:25:02. > :25:06.my right to steal from you or anything else. It is only in this
:25:07. > :25:12.area of sex that this applies. The statistics and the rest of it... It
:25:13. > :25:17.is not against the law to have sex with somebody. Is it a good thing
:25:18. > :25:24.that a child is learning to connect sex with disease, unwanted babies.
:25:25. > :25:31.We pretend that we are concerned about children... Doctor Mark, what
:25:32. > :25:38.are the advantages of having been morning after pill more readily
:25:39. > :25:41.available? Fundamental tenant of medicine is that prevention is
:25:42. > :25:50.better than cure. The morning after pill prevents fertilisation. The
:25:51. > :25:55.morning after pill is not an adult and pill, it is preventing
:25:56. > :26:02.fertilisation. Can it be abortive if fertilisation has occurred? No, the
:26:03. > :26:07.position is that it does not repent implantation. Implantation is a
:26:08. > :26:11.fertilised egg embryo. It doesn't prevent that. It can upset the
:26:12. > :26:15.menstrual cycle, but that prevents fertilisation in the first place. So
:26:16. > :26:21.you're not creating a baby, you're not aborting anything. Another
:26:22. > :26:25.position... I am an IVF specialists I have an interest in women not
:26:26. > :26:28.getting too damaged from infections. If you are a young woman with the
:26:29. > :26:32.now is to say, I may well have sex tonight, I will go and get the
:26:33. > :26:42.morning after pill and take it before I have sex, you probably have
:26:43. > :26:48.the to say I have a packet of condoms and will use it, prevention
:26:49. > :26:56.is better than law. It should be the sponsor Bertie of the chap, too. But
:26:57. > :27:03.equally is women get pregnant. -- it should be the responsibility of the
:27:04. > :27:09.chap. When we look at sexual elation chips, there is a man and a woman
:27:10. > :27:12.involved, -- sexual relationships. If we are looking at a heterosexual
:27:13. > :27:17.relationship, two people involved and both of them need to be part of
:27:18. > :27:22.the decision-making process. It is not just about a woman saying, I am
:27:23. > :27:25.looking after myself and the man in question is a throwaway, one night
:27:26. > :27:31.stand. It needs to be a relationship. Prevention is better
:27:32. > :27:39.than cure but it can't just be about women. Is this the real world? It is
:27:40. > :27:46.the world we have created. When was the moral golden age? There has
:27:47. > :27:51.never been... People talk about the hypocrisy... People say return to
:27:52. > :27:58.Victorian values, you will send children up chimneys. Hypocrisy is
:27:59. > :28:01.the tribute that vice pays to virtue, that is at least
:28:02. > :28:13.acknowledging a standard. We live in an Anais stick -- and
:28:14. > :28:19.instead of preventing young people getting into the situation by giving
:28:20. > :28:31.them good moral education... We need to be teaching people properly,
:28:32. > :28:35.about sex, relationship, education. Some people would argue it can be
:28:36. > :28:40.about moral education, or moral education can be a part of it. In
:28:41. > :28:44.the Netherlands, where they have very low teenage pregnancy rates,
:28:45. > :28:50.they have education about love and nation chips from a very early age
:28:51. > :28:56.-- and relationships. When it is age-appropriate, they start teaching
:28:57. > :29:01.them about sexual relationships. What is wrong with that? You can
:29:02. > :29:05.talk about a happy and healthy relationship. Part of a
:29:06. > :29:09.relationship, whether you agree with this or not, is about yes, talking
:29:10. > :29:14.about love and what that looks like, that is fantastic, but we
:29:15. > :29:19.can't get away from the fact that people in our society are having
:29:20. > :29:23.sex. That is what humans do. Actually, the best form of that is
:29:24. > :29:32.making sure that everyone knows what the pros and cons of having sex. So
:29:33. > :29:37.it is a well informed choice. I was going to say, what is morality? It
:29:38. > :29:41.seems to me that everybody does what is right in their own eyes, and I
:29:42. > :29:47.call that anarchy. I believe that is what is happening. It is my right to
:29:48. > :29:52.make my decision. But it is not, we live in a society. We have
:29:53. > :29:57.responsibilities and duties and that word, duty, is something that so
:29:58. > :30:01.many have forgotten about, ignored, or deliberately turned their back
:30:02. > :30:05.on. What do you think about the available tee of the morning after
:30:06. > :30:14.pill, I infer you not happy? -- availability. I would not say that,
:30:15. > :30:19.I would not say that, but we need to go deeper to look at the root of
:30:20. > :30:24.society, what is society? Do we know what society is? Do we know where we
:30:25. > :30:29.are going as a society? Do we have any vision? On Saturday night, you
:30:30. > :30:34.do not think where you are as a society. That is why we need proper
:30:35. > :30:42.education. Many of us have been there. Sex education in schools, I
:30:43. > :30:45.speak to 16 and 17-year-olds who have no idea about relationships or
:30:46. > :30:50.their own fertility or how their own body works. It has to start earlier.
:30:51. > :30:54.We live in a society where, as we said earlier, there is instant
:30:55. > :30:57.gratification, we are looking at images all the time in the media
:30:58. > :31:02.online, and that is where young people are getting information from.
:31:03. > :31:06.It needs to be a proper, structured education, teaching them how to
:31:07. > :31:42.behave in a relationship, how to keep themselves safe and, you know,
:31:43. > :31:46.difficulty... Two difficulties, young people always think, this is
:31:47. > :31:51.the one, this is the one. Some people in their 20s and 30s and
:31:52. > :31:59.40s. Exactly, ordered and disordered life... Sorry to interrupt you, but
:32:00. > :32:07.Marco... This morning, Clare Balding was interviewing Philomena, who
:32:08. > :32:13.conceived 50 years ago and then had to give up that child because the
:32:14. > :32:16.Catholic Church disapproved of that. That is what you actually
:32:17. > :32:26.potentially are advocating, going back to that awful scenario. And if
:32:27. > :32:34.you don't... The Lady there. Can I just go back to the point you made?
:32:35. > :32:41.Unwanted children, people having, like, people having sex having to
:32:42. > :32:45.cope with the consequences of ending up in a position where they have an
:32:46. > :32:52.unwanted child? So what are you saying? That people who don't have
:32:53. > :32:57.the means to bring up a child, who don't have the money, who don't have
:32:58. > :33:04.the mental physical stability to do so, like... People are lining up to
:33:05. > :33:08.adopt children, can just finish one point that nobody is making in this
:33:09. > :33:15.discussion? This word love, without making a distinction between ordered
:33:16. > :33:19.and disordered love. What is that? As any woman whose husband has run
:33:20. > :33:28.off with another woman because he loves her. Not all love is good.
:33:29. > :33:34.Over there, sorry, it is a bit of a disordered debate now! I am thinking
:33:35. > :33:42.that we're going back to the 1970s, I thought we won all these points 35
:33:43. > :33:47.years ago. We heard earlier on... I do not agree with Pat, family
:33:48. > :33:56.enough, I do not agree with that. I think she is well out of date. She
:33:57. > :34:01.does represent a body of opinion. You mentioned the real world, the
:34:02. > :34:11.woman High Speed Two have suffered in the real world. -- the women I
:34:12. > :34:20.speak to. Excuse me, I am not interrupting you, I think you should
:34:21. > :34:27.let me speak, you said quite enough. All the young women that get
:34:28. > :34:30.pregnant, 40% result in abortions. Have an abortion or take the pill?
:34:31. > :34:35.Take the pill, abortion is a terrible thing for a woman to
:34:36. > :34:40.experience. It takes two to tango, so where are the males in this
:34:41. > :34:50.debate, right? At the end of the day, you cannot have a baby without
:34:51. > :34:56.a male. Your arm shot up there! We have not examined the male point of
:34:57. > :35:00.view, specifically how we have been programmed over our evolutionary
:35:01. > :35:05.development, the mail to spread his sperm and reproduction, and the
:35:06. > :35:09.woman to invest in the future of the militantly few children she will
:35:10. > :35:18.have. We haven't examined that fundamental difference in drivers
:35:19. > :35:36.between ales and females. Well, we are not also the backs, are we? --
:35:37. > :35:43.silverbacks. The gentleman with a hat. From the point of view of
:35:44. > :35:49.gender, if there are condom is available for males everywhere, why
:35:50. > :35:57.can't they for women? Leonora, are you worried about the fact this is
:35:58. > :36:01.available for girls under 16? Yes, that is terrifying! If children are
:36:02. > :36:06.having sex under 16, that is illegal, to start off with. If they
:36:07. > :36:09.are going to a school nurse and getting a morning-after pill, there
:36:10. > :36:15.have to be bigger questions asked. Is it not more worrying if they have
:36:16. > :36:35.a baby? Having a baby is not the only consequence of having sex.
:36:36. > :36:39.Should they get a lecture on contraception? We should be saying
:36:40. > :36:48.that it is illegal, it is against the law. I think we can have moral
:36:49. > :36:52.arguments and beliefs, but at the end of the day, for professionals,
:36:53. > :36:56.for services, we have to be realistic about these things. Young
:36:57. > :37:01.people are having sex. Morality exists, but we also have to accept
:37:02. > :37:04.that for some young people morality and religion is not part of their
:37:05. > :37:08.lives, they were never brought up in that. They should have the freedom
:37:09. > :37:13.to be able to access services. If they don't want to do, that is their
:37:14. > :37:17.choice. I am quite happy to live in a world that is relatively liberal,
:37:18. > :37:22.it is people's choice to do these things, and I think I would rather
:37:23. > :37:25.see contraceptives, let's have a real discussion about sexual
:37:26. > :37:30.relationships, to do what was then in the past, but it all in a
:37:31. > :37:34.cupboard, pretend it did not exist, and then you had all these unknown,
:37:35. > :37:37.unseen problems. You want people to at least be honest about it, because
:37:38. > :38:04.they can get help if they needed. I sense a schism here, you are
:38:05. > :38:09.saying only marriage. It will happen because we will be coming to that in
:38:10. > :38:15.the next discussion. The end times?! This will not last! We used
:38:16. > :38:19.to all get married, remember, when people wanted to have sexual
:38:20. > :38:23.relationships they got married. Meeting somebody, courtship, break
:38:24. > :38:29.off and meet some else without the sex. And plenty of extramarital
:38:30. > :38:33.affairs and STI is. They should still be taught that marriage is the
:38:34. > :38:38.context for sexual activity. Marco, is this going to help? Making the
:38:39. > :38:44.morning-after pill available? Absolutely, yes.
:38:45. > :38:52.You can join in all the debates by logging on to the website. Follow
:38:53. > :38:57.the link to the online discussion, you can tweet using the hashtag
:38:58. > :39:02.#bbctbq. Tell us what you think about our last big question, the end
:39:03. > :39:09.times imminent? If you would like to be in the audience at a future show,
:39:10. > :39:13.you can e-mail us. We will be in Bristol, then we have a two-week
:39:14. > :39:20.break while you enjoy the London Marathon and Easter Sunday, and we
:39:21. > :39:24.will be back in April from York. It was one safer milia site on high
:39:25. > :39:32.streets, men wearing sandwich boards declaring the end of the world is
:39:33. > :39:37.nigh. -- it was once a familiar sight. Evangelical missionaries have
:39:38. > :39:41.come from the United States proclaiming the same message now,
:39:42. > :39:48.and there are some home-grown doom mongering churches too. Why do they
:39:49. > :39:52.think the world is about to end? Because the Bible says that it will
:39:53. > :39:58.happen when people become lovers of self, of money, heartless,
:39:59. > :40:03.slanderous, without self-control, brutal, treacherous, swollen with
:40:04. > :40:09.conceit, lovers of pleasure, sounds like our audience! When this
:40:10. > :40:20.happens, Jesus will come again to judge the world and reviewed it for
:40:21. > :40:24.its sins. The times imminent? Doctor -- Dr Mark Vincent, what are the
:40:25. > :40:32.signs? There are a number of signs, some general background signs of the
:40:33. > :40:39.passage you have quoted, we have had the Noah movie, just released. Is it
:40:40. > :40:45.that bad?! It is interesting that Jesus said there will be a parallel
:40:46. > :40:49.between how things were in day 's and Noahbefore his coming, and that
:40:50. > :40:55.is about violence in society, more people massacred in the last
:40:56. > :41:02.century, and that is just a result of the exponential growth of
:41:03. > :41:08.technology and weaponry. But in the hundred thousand odd years of human
:41:09. > :41:11.history, the 4.5 billion years of our world, 65 million years since
:41:12. > :41:18.the dinosaurs became extinct, there have been scabs and downs, ins and
:41:19. > :41:21.outs. There have, but it is interesting how some things have
:41:22. > :41:28.changed exponentially in recent times. If you think about the
:41:29. > :41:31.population, the consumption of resources, technology,
:41:32. > :41:38.communication, the ability to travel. What will happen? Talk us
:41:39. > :41:42.through it. OK, so to make this a bit more specific, the Bible has a
:41:43. > :41:48.lot to say about Jerusalem. Jesus will come back to the earth, what
:41:49. > :41:55.will happen? So actually the old Testament, 2500 years ago, the new
:41:56. > :41:59.Testament, Jesus said that the end of times would not come until the
:42:00. > :42:03.Jews were back in the land of Palestine, so that is not a
:42:04. > :42:10.political thing, that is a sign. But what will happen? That has only been
:42:11. > :42:15.the case since 1948. The Bible also talks about a geopolitical crisis
:42:16. > :42:20.that will be centred on Jerusalem. But what will it look like, Jesus
:42:21. > :42:25.coming back to? That is quite remarkable, isn't it? Jerusalem is
:42:26. > :42:31.right in the centre of the map, you know, it is the main point of three
:42:32. > :42:37.world religions. When Jesus comes down, what will happen? That is the
:42:38. > :42:43.fantastic news, and what will happen is that Jesus will become the future
:42:44. > :42:48.king of the world. We have talked about, you know, some of the
:42:49. > :42:53.disillusionment of politics. We have talked about... King of the world,
:42:54. > :42:58.what will the world be like? There is a lot of work to do, a lot of
:42:59. > :43:04.redistribution of resources. There is enough food in the world to feed
:43:05. > :43:09.people... Jesus will be the head of a world government? That is right.
:43:10. > :43:15.Will it be a democracy, will he be a dictator? We would like to be able
:43:16. > :43:19.to feed everyone, but we have not achieved it. Who better to actually
:43:20. > :43:27.lead these initiatives than Jesus? Yeah, OK, Chris, you are a man of
:43:28. > :43:32.religion. He wants the end of the world to come, a new phase, is this
:43:33. > :43:40.dangerous thinking? It is, in American politics, for example, you
:43:41. > :43:45.can see how the handling of the Palestinian problem, OK, it is meant
:43:46. > :43:51.to happen, therefore let it happen. A self-fulfilling prophecy. That is
:43:52. > :43:56.the kind of thing that happens. It is a total misunderstanding of the
:43:57. > :44:01.Bible. The Jewish people have this image of a loving God who was always
:44:02. > :44:06.with them, but what the experience told them was, end slavery in
:44:07. > :44:08.Egypt, taken away by the Babylonians, hammered by the
:44:09. > :44:15.Syrians, under occupation by the Romans, and so, for goodness sake,
:44:16. > :44:20.when is God going to sort all this out? The whole eschatology was
:44:21. > :44:25.about, when is God going to clear up this mess? It was not about the end
:44:26. > :44:29.of the world, it was, when was God going to put his programme of love
:44:30. > :44:36.into action? That is what it was about. You think we are in the end
:44:37. > :44:43.times, don't you? Yes, and I'm not a scientist, a mathematician, but I
:44:44. > :44:51.believe the Bible to delete to be true Ulster literally? Literally
:44:52. > :44:57.true. I am happy to debate with anyone. The end times begins,
:44:58. > :45:02.according to Jesus, when the Jews are back in Israel, and he says that
:45:03. > :45:08.Jerusalem will be trampled by the Gentiles until the age of the
:45:09. > :45:29.Gentiles is finished. 14th of May 1948, busy deal prophesied -- busy
:45:30. > :45:34.What other portents are there? Jesus said there would be famines and
:45:35. > :45:40.wars. There have always been famines and wars. If you check the
:45:41. > :45:48.exponential growth... Climate change. It says in Luke 's gospel
:45:49. > :45:59.chapter 21 there will be tsunamis and tremendous floods and chaos in
:46:00. > :46:04.the world. What will happen? I am sure there are a litany of
:46:05. > :46:09.predictions. There will be a major invasion by Russia, Turkey, Iran,
:46:10. > :46:16.Libya, Ethiopian... It says it in the Bible? It does, you can read it
:46:17. > :46:21.for yourself. They will invade Jerusalem and God will send floods,
:46:22. > :46:26.hail, fire upon them. The people in Djourou Slim were going to suffer
:46:27. > :46:34.terribly in the very last days -- in Jerusalem. I think this is a
:46:35. > :46:48.terrible thing. It is what the Bible says. In the last days... Wait,
:46:49. > :46:58.wait! Sceptics will come. Peter says that. What will happen... There they
:46:59. > :47:05.are. What will happen to those who don't believe? They will go to hell.
:47:06. > :47:12.After hell, the lake of fire. That is what the Bible says. Don't say
:47:13. > :47:21.they are going to hell and point at Charles Kennedy. Saint Peter was so
:47:22. > :47:28.right. The last days, you will be sceptics and scoffers. Charles
:47:29. > :47:32.Kennedy. There was an old joke about the Reverend Ian Paisley when he was
:47:33. > :47:36.at the height of his powers. He said, the day of reckoning, there
:47:37. > :47:40.will be anguish and suffering and hardship and gnashing of teeth. This
:47:41. > :47:43.old lady in the congregation said, but reverend Paisley, I don't have
:47:44. > :47:52.any teeth. He said, teeth will be provided. I can only say... I must
:47:53. > :47:58.have bought a different edition of the Bible from the one I have just
:47:59. > :48:03.been hearing about. In a minute, I want to bring in somebody else. We
:48:04. > :48:07.are all sinners, I want to bring in another one, Ian Scott from the
:48:08. > :48:16.Glasgow sceptics. It is all in the Bible. Sceptics. The Bible says
:48:17. > :48:24.there are no dogs in heaven, it is actually sceptics, it is a Greek
:48:25. > :48:30.word. My dog is going to be there. So will mine. But sceptics... I
:48:31. > :48:35.definitely think the end times are coming, absolutely. But perhaps not
:48:36. > :48:42.in quite the same timescale that you do. I haven't got a timescale. If
:48:43. > :48:45.you think the end times are imminent, what sort of timescales do
:48:46. > :48:52.you have question what have you been collecting pensions?
:48:53. > :49:04.It is a foolish and immature thing to say. You have said by 2016? After
:49:05. > :49:11.the referendum, anyway. APPLAUSE
:49:12. > :49:23.If there is a yes vote, it will be the end of the world. This is a
:49:24. > :49:26.pack, they used to do this at University, pack the audience with
:49:27. > :49:36.all of the people that believe the same thing. 2016 and counting. There
:49:37. > :49:42.was a 19th-century preacher who started all of this, all of these
:49:43. > :49:49.words. The words like rapture did not exist in the Bible. There was a
:49:50. > :49:53.guy like Schofield in 1909 who wrote the Schofield Bible and in it he had
:49:54. > :49:59.a lot of notes. Picking passages here and all of this detailing the
:50:00. > :50:04.end of the world. This Bible sold very well, this whole cult, you can
:50:05. > :50:12.call it, a dangerous cults got off the ground. There was a whole lot of
:50:13. > :50:17.fiction about how this world was going to end. You made the point,
:50:18. > :50:24.there is a bit of it all over the world. In Iran, they are waiting for
:50:25. > :50:30.the lost profit to come and there is an apocalyptic thing. In America
:50:31. > :50:35.there are people who actively want this to happen. They want it to
:50:36. > :50:39.happen, for them, all of the signs and disasters are about the end of
:50:40. > :50:44.the world but what it actually is doing, it is negating their
:50:45. > :50:50.responsibility. Do you want this to happen? I don't, and neither does
:50:51. > :50:59.God. I can speak for God... Nobody else is beating for him! Your God is
:51:00. > :51:05.a violent murderer, really. Do you preach from the pulpit that God is a
:51:06. > :51:10.violent murderer? No, but that is the kind of got you are talking. I
:51:11. > :51:18.see it represented in Jesus. A loving, inclusive, compassionate
:51:19. > :51:24.God. And this, God is going to annihilate the world, in what way
:51:25. > :51:31.does that... Does Jesus talk more about hell or heaven? Jesus talks
:51:32. > :51:44.more about love. He talks more about hell because he loves us. It is Pat
:51:45. > :51:51.time... Because Pat... Are you an end times person? The question was,
:51:52. > :51:54.are the end times imminent? In the Scriptures it tells us that in the
:51:55. > :52:02.eyes of God and the wider eternity, a thousand years is but a day. The
:52:03. > :52:06.key sign of the end times is apostasy, godlessness. We have seen
:52:07. > :52:12.that all morning, no offence. No offence? ! A complete godlessness.
:52:13. > :52:17.There is a more recent prophecy about the end times. It has the
:52:18. > :52:28.blessing of the church. The church does not lightly encourage us to go
:52:29. > :52:31.after private apprehensions. There have been 34 individual predictions
:52:32. > :52:38.since the year 2000, we are entering a new one in two days time, looking
:52:39. > :52:44.forward to it very much! This is not a prediction. Charles, you are
:52:45. > :52:47.conducting the debate? I am interested in the research, you keep
:52:48. > :52:52.asking the correct question, what will happen? You must have dealt
:52:53. > :52:56.with people who go to top of Ben Nevis because the world is going to
:52:57. > :53:00.come to an end at four o'clock next Wednesday and it doesn't, and have
:53:01. > :53:05.to come back down again. When you deal with people, you have
:53:06. > :53:09.interviewed people for research like that, it is not what will happen,
:53:10. > :53:18.but what didn't happen. What do they say? That gets into the question of
:53:19. > :53:32.how people interpret the Bible and people trying to predict specific
:53:33. > :53:37.dates. It is not about predicting the end of the world. It gives a
:53:38. > :53:40.broad scenario. There are really interesting correspondences between
:53:41. > :53:45.what the Bible predicts, and the broad period that we are now living
:53:46. > :53:50.in. It sounds like a politician's answer. Jesus coming to Earth... The
:53:51. > :53:57.gentleman in the checked shirt. Good morning. With all of this
:53:58. > :54:00.interpretation, the only way you are going to get into heaven is if you
:54:01. > :54:05.believe in God, not if you are a good person, because the person who
:54:06. > :54:13.God is getting portrayed as is sounding quite cruel and hateful. I
:54:14. > :54:17.think this line of thought shows why religion, especially in an
:54:18. > :54:22.unmitigated form, can be so dangerous. First of all, it brings
:54:23. > :54:26.up things that are not grounded in evidence. It gives value to things
:54:27. > :54:30.that were not reasoned with and it detracts from the issues we are
:54:31. > :54:33.faced with today. If someone believes the end times are in and he
:54:34. > :54:39.is less likely to do something against global warming, and I think
:54:40. > :54:44.that is why it is dangerous. If you look at Jesus, his concern wasn't so
:54:45. > :54:52.much about heaven and hell but about the woman who has been excluded from
:54:53. > :54:54.society, the rich man who talks about the redistribution of his
:54:55. > :55:00.wealth. He was concerned about real issues that we are tackling in a
:55:01. > :55:08.period of occupation by the Romans. He was talking about inequality in
:55:09. > :55:12.society. The question is about the end times. If we were talking about
:55:13. > :55:15.the love of Jesus, that would be a wonderful and enriching debate but
:55:16. > :55:19.we are not. We are talking about, are there signs in the Bible, in the
:55:20. > :55:25.world, that the world is on the brink of meltdown? And yes. You
:55:26. > :55:29.thought my question was immature and foolish. Well, it was a question and
:55:30. > :55:38.I would like you to answer it because I think York -- your
:55:39. > :55:45.position is stupid and foolish. What is the point in the prediction if
:55:46. > :55:48.you don't have a date? If I believe the Bible, I am stupid? I think you
:55:49. > :56:08.are very non-dot-macro rational. Do you agree with each other? Is he
:56:09. > :56:13.going to hell? Everybody believes in something. Even the devil believes
:56:14. > :56:20.in God. That does not get anybody to heaven. I would Jesus be so loving
:56:21. > :56:28.and people to hell? They choose to go. You don't think people go to
:56:29. > :56:31.hell? I think the perception of hell is wrong. I think people who have
:56:32. > :56:34.lived their lives and don't want to be part of what God is planning for
:56:35. > :56:38.the future, they die, they sleep eternally, that is what hell is. It
:56:39. > :56:44.is basically the grave. We are not talking about God when we talk about
:56:45. > :56:51.the end times, we're not talking about God and I letting the world,
:56:52. > :56:55.as somebody put it. -- annihilating the world as somebody put it. The
:56:56. > :56:59.circumstances that trigger a new world are actually a geopolitical
:57:00. > :57:07.crisis that we bring upon ourselves. Will there be countries? Nation
:57:08. > :57:15.states? Who knows? That is why I am asking Mark. God is not going to
:57:16. > :57:18.destroy the world, we are. Will there be nation states? A lot of the
:57:19. > :57:28.details, I do not know, the Bible is not clear. Will Satan be involved?
:57:29. > :57:33.Is there a final battle? Satan is a symbolic picture of sin in human
:57:34. > :57:38.nature. I can't pick and choose in the Bible, if it is God's word, it
:57:39. > :57:46.is God's word. There is a final battle called Armageddon. The Bible
:57:47. > :57:51.is very clear about it. Iran and Russia and Turkey are now in an
:57:52. > :58:01.alliance, Turkey put Russia on its best friend list. The atomic power
:58:02. > :58:07.station is only there because of Russia and Iran. Iran has said they
:58:08. > :58:15.are going to bomb... You won't be laughing soon. Using Iranians are
:58:16. > :58:18.inherently evil? People in that area of the world, which had a lot of
:58:19. > :58:21.difficulties, are going to be the cause of evil as opposed to any
:58:22. > :58:29.other part of the world... That seems un-Christian. Next week we're
:58:30. > :58:34.in Bristol, so join us then. You carry an! But for now it's goodbye
:58:35. > :58:37.and have a great Sunday. -- carry on!