:00:00. > :00:07.Today on The Big Questions: The threat from Islamism.
:00:08. > :00:32.And the fast road to sainthood. APPLAUSE Good morning.
:00:33. > :00:35.I'm Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions. Today, we're live
:00:36. > :00:36.from Manor Church of England Academy, in York. Welcome, everyone,
:00:37. > :00:46.to The Big Questions. On Wednesday, Tony Blair, the former
:00:47. > :00:48.Prime Minister, now Middle East peace envoy, and multi-millionaire
:00:49. > :00:51.consultant, delivered a portentous speech warning that Islamist
:00:52. > :00:53.ideology poses a real threat which is destabilising communities and
:00:54. > :01:02.nations, and undermining peaceful co-existence in an era of
:01:03. > :01:05.globalisation. In the face of this growing threat, which Tony Blair
:01:06. > :01:10.warned is "spreading across the world", he said: "We seem curiously
:01:11. > :01:14.reluctant to acknowledge it, and powerless to counter it
:01:15. > :01:23.effectively." Is he right? Is Islamism the biggest threat to
:01:24. > :01:30.the modern world? Anne-Marie Waters, is he right?
:01:31. > :01:35.He is right, but not because he is Tony Blair. It is important we do
:01:36. > :01:41.not fixate on the messenger. The evidence is there is a global,
:01:42. > :01:47.Islamist, political movement. It does rule countries and destabilise
:01:48. > :01:53.countries. As the Arab Spring showed us, it is powerful and organised and
:01:54. > :01:57.waiting to take over even more countries it is already rolling. Not
:01:58. > :02:03.only in the Middle East and North Africa, but in Britain, across the
:02:04. > :02:08.West. We are reluctant to confront it. The fact we are having this
:02:09. > :02:15.debate shows that. The evidence for it is around us. We have Islamist
:02:16. > :02:26.Livio Loi in this country openly calling for brutal punishments, they
:02:27. > :02:41.are running a family court system, calling for Shari -- Sharia.
:02:42. > :02:48.If I can focus, Tony Blair, cosying up to one of the dictators, in this
:02:49. > :02:54.speech, lamely decrying the death sentence for 500 members of the
:02:55. > :03:01.Muslim Brotherhood. Calling for the enemies of Islamism to be bolstered
:03:02. > :03:14.wherever they are. With Saddam Hussein, at the time of the Koran -a
:03:15. > :03:20.war. -- Iran-Iraq. Has he not learned any lessons?
:03:21. > :03:26.It does not detract from the message. Some of it is rich coming
:03:27. > :03:31.from Tony Blair. The question is, is Islamism a threat to the modern
:03:32. > :03:37.world? It is. We have two separate that question from Tony Blair and
:03:38. > :03:45.what he may have done or said. There is a threat, is there?
:03:46. > :03:51.It is an exaggerated threat. Tony Blair is responsible for this
:03:52. > :04:01.threat. I will give you examples. He invaded Iraq and gave a safe haven
:04:02. > :04:11.for Al-Qaeda. He invaded also Afghanistan. He created another
:04:12. > :04:17.base. They have created a failed state and a vacuum filled by
:04:18. > :04:23.Islamist extremists. Most of the regime changes took place in secular
:04:24. > :04:29.Arab countries. Gaddafi, Saddam Hussein, they are not Islamist. Look
:04:30. > :04:36.at what is happening. I am not defending them. I am just exposing
:04:37. > :04:48.the contradictions. The worst time -- type of phobia. Now he is siding
:04:49. > :04:51.with Egypt. There is a campaign now against Islam and the Muslim
:04:52. > :04:59.Brotherhood. He is trying to be part of this campaign. The Muslim
:05:00. > :05:11.brotherhood does not exist in Egypt. In Syria, they are struggling. What
:05:12. > :05:19.about the kidnap of schoolgirls we have heard from extremist groups to
:05:20. > :05:24.knock 4000 dead over four years. Tony Blair killed 1 million people
:05:25. > :05:31.in the rock. -- Iraq.
:05:32. > :05:39.Somehow, everything is the fault of the West, as if countries, people,
:05:40. > :05:42.cannot act on their own initiative. Let her answer. Someone said the
:05:43. > :05:48.Americans are responsible for the Taliban. They are not responsible
:05:49. > :05:56.for what the Taliban does when it is in power. For imprisoning women,
:05:57. > :06:02.stoning people to death. That is their own fault. They do that of
:06:03. > :06:07.their own volition. Who brought the Taliban to power?
:06:08. > :06:16.The Americans. They gave their support. This idea everything is
:06:17. > :06:20.somehow connected back to the all-powerful West is absurd. People
:06:21. > :06:26.are responsible for their own actions, and the people responsible
:06:27. > :06:41.for the Harrah -- the horror of the Taliban, is the Taliban themselves.
:06:42. > :06:46.Some people said about this speech, he has undermined himself. Did you
:06:47. > :06:52.not think this is a man who waged what many believe to be an illegal
:06:53. > :06:59.war, which led to, maybe, 1 million deaths, created, creating many
:07:00. > :07:06.extremists across the world. And he is lecturing the world about peace.
:07:07. > :07:11.One can differentiate between Tony Blair the man, and Tony Blair with
:07:12. > :07:15.his message. I agree with the message. The media has been guilty
:07:16. > :07:23.of ignoring the central theme of the message, and pointing to suggestions
:07:24. > :07:28.he wants to keep Assad in power. None of this was said in the speech.
:07:29. > :07:33.Tony Blair is saying there was a greater evil we should focus on. Of
:07:34. > :07:38.course there is a campaign against the Muslim Brotherhood. It is a
:07:39. > :07:46.global organisation seeking to impose an absolute form of Islam.
:07:47. > :07:55.The former head of MI6 called it, at heart, a terrorist organisation.
:07:56. > :08:08.Abdel Bari Atwan, you famously said... This is not true. When we
:08:09. > :08:13.talk about the speech... You need to make that clear it is not true, you
:08:14. > :08:21.never said that. It was out of context. On a programme, it was a
:08:22. > :08:36.few seconds from a programme. So is bombing the Arabs? The Israelis. I
:08:37. > :08:40.will come back to you. Extremism is a threat but certainly not the
:08:41. > :08:48.biggest threat. Capitalism. Climate change. Religion and politics
:08:49. > :08:55.without Essex -- ethics. In every region, you have crazy
:08:56. > :09:02.fundamentalism, right wing Jewish in Israel causing havoc, Hindu
:09:03. > :09:07.extremists in India causing problems. Buddhist extremists now
:09:08. > :09:20.causing persecution and genocide in Burma. Religious extremism affects
:09:21. > :09:24.every religion. This Islamist extremism is a problem. Muslims have
:09:25. > :09:29.to look in the mirror and address these issues as common human
:09:30. > :09:38.issues. It is Arabs killing each other, in Syria. Injuries lump,
:09:39. > :09:44.there is a display cabinet in the mosque showing CS gas canisters
:09:45. > :09:52.which Israelis fired into the mosque over the last 40 years. Palestinians
:09:53. > :10:00.say, we are killing each other in Syria, how can we blame the Jews? It
:10:01. > :10:13.is more complex. I agree that arise -- there is
:10:14. > :10:20.extremism everywhere. But you can confuse Islam with Islamism. I don't
:10:21. > :10:24.think they said that. It should never be confused with extremism and
:10:25. > :10:31.violence, Islam does not subscribe to any of that. The problem is, does
:10:32. > :10:36.Islam have political framework within it, does it propose an
:10:37. > :10:44.economic, social and ethical framework. As soon as it proposes a
:10:45. > :10:51.political framework, it becomes a public one. To save the Muslim
:10:52. > :10:57.Brotherhood is at its heart a terrorist organisation, that
:10:58. > :11:03.completely misunderstand the organisation. I have read the
:11:04. > :11:08.literature. I don't think it is like that. But the current climate in the
:11:09. > :11:16.world would lead moderate groups like that to become radicalised
:11:17. > :11:22.because of the lunatic ideas. We have turned a blind eye to the
:11:23. > :11:28.Middle East. 60% of Egyptians want the Muslim Brotherhood to be in
:11:29. > :11:35.government. But this democratic movement is being undermined. We
:11:36. > :11:41.would like the right guy we like to become the president or prime
:11:42. > :11:50.minister. Tony Blair is one of the private advisers to the dictator of
:11:51. > :11:57.Kazakhstan. He went running to the South Sudanese government to become
:11:58. > :12:01.their adviser. He embraced Gaddafi. I can never forget those atrocities
:12:02. > :12:08.perpetrated by Tony Blair's policies. Simply Tony Blair saying
:12:09. > :12:13.this is wrong. I saw you wincing, why is that when
:12:14. > :12:19.he was speaking? Talking about the ideology and belief.
:12:20. > :12:27.The idea Islamism can be completely separated from Islam is
:12:28. > :12:35.problematic. Why is that? If an Islamist government takes over a
:12:36. > :12:41.country... Define that? And installs death by stoning, they can find
:12:42. > :12:49.justification for that in Scripture. Wait, wait! Let her finish. You have
:12:50. > :12:53.violence against women justified as it often is by Islamist
:12:54. > :13:03.governments... I will tell you what we will do. Wait. Usama Hasan is an
:13:04. > :13:09.imam, maybe you can explain why you believe that not to be the case?
:13:10. > :13:19.There is a debate going on within Islam. The issue of a politically
:13:20. > :13:24.interpretation of Islam. Groups do not speak for all Muslims. There are
:13:25. > :13:31.many of devout Muslims who oppose the hijacking of religion for
:13:32. > :13:36.political purposes. It is true to say that the Western foreign policy
:13:37. > :13:42.for the last 60 years has been problematic, supporting dictators
:13:43. > :13:49.for stability, like a sad, Gaddafi, Saddam Hussein, and others. Hartley
:13:50. > :14:06.needing to the increase of Islamism. The Muslim Brotherhood has a wide
:14:07. > :14:09.spectrum. In Tunisia, Islamists have proposed a purely civil
:14:10. > :14:17.constitution. I want to explore this point. It is key. This whole bit
:14:18. > :14:27.about the confusion between Islam and Islamism which must not be made.
:14:28. > :14:33.You say there are cross overs. Tony Blair in his speech and said it is a
:14:34. > :14:45.warped interpretation of Islam. Others have said it is plausible.
:14:46. > :14:50.Islamism and the Muslim Brotherhood is a broad spectrum. Everyone has
:14:51. > :14:56.the right to have politics informed by faith. All kinds of people, all
:14:57. > :15:01.around the world, leaders and millions of people whose politics is
:15:02. > :15:06.informed on religious values of truth, honesty, justice and working
:15:07. > :15:15.for others. Is it a plausible reading of the Koran? Certain forms
:15:16. > :15:23.of it but there are extremist interpretations which are causing
:15:24. > :15:31.havoc around the world. This points to a far larger discussion, to which
:15:32. > :15:35.you are already alluded about fundamentalists, radicalised
:15:36. > :15:40.religion and moderate progressive religion. In a way, this entire
:15:41. > :15:45.discussion is a red herring. There are much wider issues to content
:15:46. > :15:51.with. We have a million Brits needing food bikes. There is
:15:52. > :15:55.poverty, environmental degradation, slavery in today's world. I do not
:15:56. > :15:58.see Tony Blair giving a keynote speech about those things. It is
:15:59. > :16:05.important to draw the discussion back to be human level. As a rabbi,
:16:06. > :16:10.I am interested in building bridges between faith communities. I work
:16:11. > :16:15.for the British community. It is important to realise that the large
:16:16. > :16:24.majority of people want peace, progressive religion can give people
:16:25. > :16:30.meaning in their lives. I often hear people saying Islam is inherently
:16:31. > :16:35.evil. Church leaders say it is inherently peaceful. How do you know
:16:36. > :16:40.what it means? Surely we should deal with realities. Regardless of the
:16:41. > :16:44.hypocrisies of Tony Blair and his statements, we should deal with
:16:45. > :16:53.reality. Islamist presents a global threat to many people. This is the
:16:54. > :17:01.most important point. Let him finish. When people accuse
:17:02. > :17:08.anti-Islamist 's of being anti-Islam, it is a betrayal of
:17:09. > :17:24.moderate Muslims everywhere. An unintended consequence? It is about
:17:25. > :17:32.bigotry. Is Sam killed -- all this killing is supported by the
:17:33. > :17:38.Americans. How do you say that Islam is a threat? Tell me one example
:17:39. > :17:51.that Islam is a threat? Do we have bombs like you? Do we have missiles?
:17:52. > :17:56.I am not saying organisations like Al-Qaeda represent Islam, you are.
:17:57. > :18:15.Give me one example where the Muslim Brotherhood has invaded a country.
:18:16. > :18:23.Who used phosphoric bombs in Gaza? In eejit, the Muslim Brotherhood
:18:24. > :18:33.takes over institutions and murders people. -- Egypt. Anne-Marie said at
:18:34. > :18:38.the outset, they are here in this country. There are people with some
:18:39. > :18:43.ghastly and appalling views. Tony Blair called them incompatible with
:18:44. > :18:47.the modern world. Do you agree? I would include Sam to be an extremist
:18:48. > :18:52.in his views. He wrote an article calling me an extremist. I have
:18:53. > :18:56.received death threats for talking against extremism. For him to make
:18:57. > :19:05.silly statement in an article, there are problems with the definitions.
:19:06. > :19:10.This is so important. We are talking about laying bombs and killing
:19:11. > :19:14.fellow citizens on the street. It is wrong in any civilised world. Let's
:19:15. > :19:22.answer the question we have already asked about Syria. Did the Syrians,
:19:23. > :19:27.did the ordinary Syrians, aid and the bet and give alms to President
:19:28. > :19:33.Assad or are we doing that through China and other countries? They want
:19:34. > :19:41.freedom. The people of Saudi Arabia want freedom. Because we constantly
:19:42. > :19:47.interfere and supply them with weapons and intelligence, they keep
:19:48. > :19:51.those people seeking freedom under constant repression. If you allow
:19:52. > :19:55.Muslims across the globe the freedom to choose, they will choose the
:19:56. > :20:01.party they feel very happy with. Ultimately, the problem that
:20:02. > :20:07.Anne-Marie was highlighting is to do with sharia. We chose not to
:20:08. > :20:13.intervene in Syria. They said, do not come into our country, give us
:20:14. > :20:20.the arms to top the dictator. Some people dead and some did not. Our
:20:21. > :20:29.underlining the objective is to deliver justice to the world,
:20:30. > :20:33.fairness and equality. It is about establishing peace and fairness and
:20:34. > :20:37.justice. If people cannot find space to express it freely, and they are
:20:38. > :20:45.being constantly repressed, and the by-product of which we see as
:20:46. > :20:51.Manufacturing in extremism, we cannot find a point in it. Why do
:20:52. > :21:01.you think he is an extremist? Iraq are quite a few examples. -- there
:21:02. > :21:07.are quite a few examples. You have said the Mumbai attacks are the work
:21:08. > :21:16.of the American intelligence agencies. I never said that. What
:21:17. > :21:22.are you claiming he said? He claims in a Facebook post but the American
:21:23. > :21:29.security forces somehow orchestrated the Mumbai attacks. He also claims
:21:30. > :21:35.shadowy forces were at work in the Westgate shopping massacre. Who is
:21:36. > :21:40.responsible for? That is the topic you have missed. I did not say
:21:41. > :21:45.someone was responsible. I was blogging in my page, asking
:21:46. > :21:50.questions. You have said I support the Muslim Brotherhood. In my entire
:21:51. > :21:56.life, I have never been supported of those organisations. I am very
:21:57. > :22:00.British. I even stood in the Parliamentary elections as a Liberal
:22:01. > :22:08.Democrat. It shows your shallow understanding. Sam, respond. You
:22:09. > :22:18.also described the Hamas leader as an honest and great man. Sky he is
:22:19. > :22:34.an honest and great man as opposed to Binyamin Netanyahu, any time.
:22:35. > :22:40.What would you like to say? How -- Hamas in their charter, they blamed
:22:41. > :22:44.the Jews for everything going back to the French Revolution. They want
:22:45. > :22:49.to obliterate Israel. It is uncompromising. It reads like
:22:50. > :22:58.something which is likely to come out of Nazi Germany. Even Hamas is
:22:59. > :23:00.not an Islamic ideology. What is it? It is a group that is supporting
:23:01. > :23:09.their own religion, their own country. This has been going on for
:23:10. > :23:15.many years. We should not mix this with Islam. I am hearing here, we're
:23:16. > :23:20.in the United Kingdom, in York, in North Yorkshire, and we are hearing
:23:21. > :23:31.voices calling Muslims evil. Who said that? He said evil. He cannot
:23:32. > :23:36.even come up with a definition. It has not been agreed on. Why is it
:23:37. > :23:44.not agreed upon? The Government labels as anyway they want. They
:23:45. > :23:52.call us terrorists one day, is limbs -- Islamist 's one-day. In this
:23:53. > :24:03.country, who is funding you to pay for this? That is simple. Let her
:24:04. > :24:12.respond. Islamist obeah, what do you make of that? What sort of sharia
:24:13. > :24:15.are we watching? I disagree with your definition of extremism. You do
:24:16. > :24:23.not have to plant a bomb to be an extremist. If you want to deny women
:24:24. > :24:31.any right to get out a violent marriage or child custody, that is
:24:32. > :24:53.quite extreme. They call it sharia, therefore I am calling it sharia.
:24:54. > :25:04.What about Islamist phobia? -- Islamophobia? Hamas is the outcome
:25:05. > :25:09.of decades of Israelis and ethnic cleansing, which started in 1948
:25:10. > :25:22.when they destroyed 532 villages and towns. We are only 18 days from the
:25:23. > :25:28.66th anniversary. The world has turned a blind eye to it. Hamas is
:25:29. > :25:34.an outcome to an action by Israel, supported by the West. It is part of
:25:35. > :25:40.the policy. You cannot deny that Hamas is a big part of the social
:25:41. > :25:45.fibre. It is cause and effect? We are talking about aggression and
:25:46. > :25:49.radicalism. I would add my voice to 22% of the British public who last
:25:50. > :25:54.year, in 2013, according to the Daily Express survey, want Tony
:25:55. > :26:00.Blair to be tried for war crimes committed against their people. I
:26:01. > :26:11.would add my voice to the rising voice of those. Some Israeli leaders
:26:12. > :26:19.have asked for this, for him to be charged with war crimes against the
:26:20. > :26:28.Palestinians. We need to get a response to that. The killing of
:26:29. > :26:36.farmers and fishermen. Can I get a response? Do not talk to me about
:26:37. > :26:42.radicalism... It is Zionism. It is big powers... You have made your
:26:43. > :26:48.point very, very strongly and we need to get a response. Who wants to
:26:49. > :26:55.respond to it? I have not mentioned any of that. I need a response. You
:26:56. > :27:00.will get a response but let's get a response from the other side. I
:27:01. > :27:06.think the rabbi wants to respond. There were a lot of accusations
:27:07. > :27:12.about Israel. Do you want to counter that? Sign he cannot deny it. If he
:27:13. > :27:23.denies it and he will be lying through his teeth. Sam Westrop...
:27:24. > :27:28.Can you let him respond, please? Can you let him respond? 150,000 killed
:27:29. > :27:33.in Syria, wasting time talking that the only free democracy in the
:27:34. > :27:36.Middle East. A smoke screen to hide from the real facts. In terms of
:27:37. > :27:44.casualties number since the Second World War, the Arab -Israeli
:27:45. > :27:47.conflict is the 50th most deadly. It is something to be horribly
:27:48. > :27:57.concerned about. What about the illegal settlements? And 150,000
:27:58. > :28:00.killed in Syria. This is precisely what Tony Blair was talking about.
:28:01. > :28:07.There are many other issues that need discussion will stop peace
:28:08. > :28:16.processes need resolving and complex that need stuffing. There is terror
:28:17. > :28:23.abroad and extremism in the UK. I will attempt to come back to you
:28:24. > :28:31.later on. Anyone in the audience want to make a point? Good morning.
:28:32. > :28:39.A quick point. We have got to go back to basics. Islam or Islamist,
:28:40. > :28:57.as I understand it, seeks to impose where it can, imposing Islam all
:28:58. > :29:04.over the world. Letting Alaa -- Allah rule the world. There are
:29:05. > :29:14.people who do not believe in Allah. I come from Nigeria. There is Boca
:29:15. > :29:24.around there. Politicians use them... It is politically motivated.
:29:25. > :29:32.They have said they want to impose jihad. Sorry, I mean, sharia, all
:29:33. > :29:36.over Nigeria. This is a key point. Is it about religion or is it about
:29:37. > :29:45.people using religion as a tool for power?
:29:46. > :30:02.This was an extremist idea in early Islam. A small group wanting to
:30:03. > :30:05.impose its thoughts on everybody. Aspects of the Muslim Brotherhood
:30:06. > :30:14.fall into that wrong thinking and it has to be challenged. Muslims are
:30:15. > :30:19.fed up of the politicisation and enforcing narrow and violent
:30:20. > :30:23.interpretations. In the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, it
:30:24. > :30:30.feeds so much hatred and division around the world and radicalism. I
:30:31. > :30:38.have spent years as a committed Muslim. I know about these topics.
:30:39. > :30:44.We need a proper peace process. The Israelis are far stronger. It is
:30:45. > :30:51.unequalled. We need the international community to do far
:30:52. > :31:04.more. Tony Blair, the peace convoy, these two do far more to seek a just
:31:05. > :31:13.and lasting peace. We need to build. We need to build bridges. I
:31:14. > :31:23.am a patron and trustee of three different trusts -- charities
:31:24. > :31:27.building bridges. When you have decades of conflict and murder on
:31:28. > :31:35.both sides, hatred and grievances, it takes... Who is being the
:31:36. > :31:44.victim? I am not here to score points. But
:31:45. > :31:48.for the truth. Rabbi, you have been waiting very patiently and I know
:31:49. > :31:54.you have something to say. We want to hear.
:31:55. > :32:00.I think we always have to be careful to take it back to the individual
:32:01. > :32:04.human level. That is my interest as a rabbi, as someone who serves God
:32:05. > :32:10.and serves people and tries to hold God and people in the same thought.
:32:11. > :32:18.Every religion struggles with its interpretive tradition, has shadow
:32:19. > :32:22.sides and light sides, that is an interpretive process communities had
:32:23. > :32:29.to engage in. The more you create hostility, the harder this
:32:30. > :32:35.interpretive tradition will be. Everyone has a narrative, a story of
:32:36. > :32:46.pain, grief, anger. Of being evicted. I am not here today to cast
:32:47. > :32:51.judgement -- of being a victim. I stand here as a woman of progressive
:32:52. > :33:00.faith to demonstrate religion can be a force for good in the world. The
:33:01. > :33:04.louder the extremists shout, the more our voices are drowned out. It
:33:05. > :33:11.is time for people of peace and tolerance to stand up and raise
:33:12. > :33:16.their voice. Wait, wait. You talk about people in the shadows who are
:33:17. > :33:20.extremists, you don't want to be judgemental. Shouldn't you be
:33:21. > :33:30.judgemental about those people who are hijacking your religion,
:33:31. > :33:35.Christianity, Islam? Fundamentalist religions... I prefer to live by
:33:36. > :33:42.example. What is the point of shouting when you can build bridges.
:33:43. > :33:47.I work with Muslims, Christians, Jews, in real conversation, real
:33:48. > :33:55.social action. How do you stop them killing? At my level, by building a
:33:56. > :34:03.stronger civil society in which we can talk to each other and learn a
:34:04. > :34:06.civil discourse. It is all very nice what you're saying but the problem
:34:07. > :34:10.is the other people had to agree with you. You can't sit down and
:34:11. > :34:15.talk to people if they want to kill you, no matter what. They have to
:34:16. > :34:22.feel the same wafer that dialogue to work and some people do not want
:34:23. > :34:25.dialogue, want force. There are violent people who do want
:34:26. > :34:32.dialogue. You cannot ignore the violence. I am not ignoring it.
:34:33. > :34:37.There is a question of proportionality and what I can
:34:38. > :34:44.actually do. I am a rabbi, I worked with people of good faith, to
:34:45. > :34:51.alleviate real, pressuring issues in England -- pressing. What other
:34:52. > :34:56.struggles here in England, and in the world? Terroir 150 million
:34:57. > :35:06.children in child labour in the world. One last word?
:35:07. > :35:12.I am all in favour of dialogue. Are you? Not with that language.
:35:13. > :35:25.I can use whatever language I like. By the way, I am merely quoting
:35:26. > :35:34.other... Let her speak. She has spoken for a long time. We have to
:35:35. > :35:37.acknowledge. This is going to be a quick, last word, as I strive for
:35:38. > :35:43.balance. It is quick, last word, as I strive for
:35:44. > :35:48.impossible on this one. You are worried people call it, you say it
:35:49. > :35:54.is inevitably political, Islam. When you look at another illusion,
:35:55. > :35:59.evangelical Christianity, for example, elements within the
:36:00. > :36:02.Republican party, which has influence on foreign policy. Are you
:36:03. > :36:08.not as uncomfortable about that as others are about politicisation of
:36:09. > :36:13.Islam? Whether they are Muslim, Christian,
:36:14. > :36:19.Hindu, it makes no difference. No religion would want you to preach
:36:20. > :36:26.hatred or practice in justice, no religion would want you to kill one
:36:27. > :36:30.another. If anybody says they are, they have misunderstood God. I want
:36:31. > :36:34.that to be separated. Religion is a great framework to creating a good
:36:35. > :36:41.society. Individuals who go wrong, we need to stop them with dialogue.
:36:42. > :36:47.Thank you, all. Can I add to that?
:36:48. > :36:49.We are out of time. We have to talk about the Saints,
:36:50. > :36:59.Saints preserve us. You can have your say about all this
:37:00. > :37:01.morning's debates, by logging on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions, and
:37:02. > :37:04.following the link to the online discussion. Or you can tweet using
:37:05. > :37:07.the hashtag #bbctbq. Tell us what you think about our last Big
:37:08. > :37:10.Question too. Does Pope John Paul II deserve
:37:11. > :37:14.sainthood? And, if you would like to be in the
:37:15. > :37:17.audience at a future show, you can email audiencetbq@mentorn.tv.
:37:18. > :37:20.Next Sunday's show is a special on atheism, recorded here in York. But
:37:21. > :37:22.we are recruiting audiences for London on May 11th, Walsall on May
:37:23. > :37:35.25th, and Brighton on June 15th. This morning, millions of Catholics
:37:36. > :37:38.have watched on television and in cinemas around the world as Pope
:37:39. > :37:41.Francis canonised two of his predecessors, the liberal Pope John
:37:42. > :37:47.XXIII, and the more conservative Pope John Paul II. According to
:37:48. > :37:49.protocol, the usually lengthy process of beatification and
:37:50. > :37:54.canonisation should not start until five years after a candidate for
:37:55. > :37:57.sainthood's death. But, in John Paul's case, his great friend and
:37:58. > :38:03.successor, Pope Benedict, set the ball rolling within a month. This
:38:04. > :38:07.haste, together with the huge concern there has been across the
:38:08. > :38:10.world over the Church's handling of the child abuse scandal during John
:38:11. > :38:13.Paul II's papacy, have led many prominent and devout Catholics to
:38:14. > :38:20.question its wisdom. Does Pope John Paul II deserve sainthood?
:38:21. > :38:29.Sarah, I think you are going to say, yes, he does. What does it
:38:30. > :38:33.mean, becoming a saint? Is it an executive Clubcard! You cannot make
:38:34. > :38:39.a saint but you can declare a saint. The church recognises someone is a
:38:40. > :38:44.saint and the people of God are part of that. Said Anthony was made a
:38:45. > :38:53.saint within a year because it was so wouldn't he was a person who was
:38:54. > :39:06.extremely holy -- so evident. You are right, Pope Benedict did waive
:39:07. > :39:19.the five years. The Pope, it is said, only effected by miracle, when
:39:20. > :39:24.he placed a photo on the stomach of a woman and cured her illness.
:39:25. > :39:31.Before the 13th century, people were declared saint straightaway. They
:39:32. > :39:40.have put processes in place. That is useful. The important thing is, for
:39:41. > :39:45.instance, listening to this fascinating discussion about Islam,
:39:46. > :39:56.what did John Paul II do about this great tension between the religions?
:39:57. > :40:03.He called together in RCC -- Assissi...
:40:04. > :40:08.But bringing together people for discussion, that includes Russell
:40:09. > :40:15.Brand! To be a saint, you have to be dead.
:40:16. > :40:22.And a Catholic. God bless Russell Brand, he is still with us. You have
:40:23. > :40:26.to be a Catholic, in full communion of the church, to live a holy life
:40:27. > :40:32.as recognised by the church. There are many Saints, many we do not
:40:33. > :40:36.declare. Lots of people are in heaven interceding with us and
:40:37. > :40:41.praying for us. The church will name a saint because they have said
:40:42. > :40:45.something within the church which is important which we need to hear, and
:40:46. > :40:53.they are an antidote to the problems. John Paul II called people
:40:54. > :41:01.together of all religions to pray together, in Assissi. That was
:41:02. > :41:09.meaningful. We must ask this question. Why should someone who, in
:41:10. > :41:16.the words of the late Christopher Hitchens, consigned millions to die
:41:17. > :41:21.needlessly from AIDS. And believed, sexuality was intrinsically
:41:22. > :41:27.disordered and an ideology of evil. Why should someone like that deserve
:41:28. > :41:31.sainthood? John Paul II did not consign people
:41:32. > :41:38.to die of aids, even secular observers of serve where abstinence
:41:39. > :41:42.is preached, that is where AIDS goes down. Secular observers with
:41:43. > :41:51.excellent statistics observed it is not condom is that prevent AIDS. He
:41:52. > :41:56.preached people are infinitely loved by God and each individual is
:41:57. > :42:00.infinitely valuable. That idea went across his entire Pontificate. He
:42:01. > :42:06.welcomed Christ into economic structures, every area of life,
:42:07. > :42:11.because he had to show us that every single person, whether you disagree
:42:12. > :42:19.or not, is infinitely loved by God. That is a radical always. So,
:42:20. > :42:34.objectively disordered. , sexuality was seen to leading to an intrinsic,
:42:35. > :42:42.moral evil. --, sexuality -- homosexuality.
:42:43. > :42:51.It set back progress before Pope John Paul II. The truth is, it has
:42:52. > :42:56.made a negative impact on many Catholics, gay Catholics, their
:42:57. > :43:00.friends and families, if you look at questionnaires from the Synod of
:43:01. > :43:07.Bishops, most Catholics in Europe deplore that language and the
:43:08. > :43:11.message that sends out. Funny, as a Catholic, who happens to be gay,
:43:12. > :43:21.detracts from the Christian message of love and compassion -- For me.
:43:22. > :43:27.John Paul II reflected Internet love and tenderness in his teachings. I
:43:28. > :43:37.do not sexual ethics can be laid at the door of his teaching. There are
:43:38. > :43:43.other people want to bring in. He to respond?
:43:44. > :43:52.The issue of sexual ethics, the fact is many gay people felt they were
:43:53. > :43:58.being singled out. No one will tell a married Catholic using
:43:59. > :44:05.contraception that you will go to hell. But I have said -- I have had
:44:06. > :44:13.that said to me. The tone Pope John Paul II used, gave gay people
:44:14. > :44:19.grounds for discrimination. Some people interpreted it that way. That
:44:20. > :44:27.came from the Pope. We want to see him leading by example.
:44:28. > :44:36.There is the issue of children who were raped and tortured. Is there a
:44:37. > :44:49.stain on his reputation? There certainly is. To claim John Paul a
:44:50. > :44:57.saint less than two years after he died, is a scandal. He was in charge
:44:58. > :45:04.of an institution that covered it up, that failed to confront it and
:45:05. > :45:11.is still doing so. It still has two big dragged out of them. He was an
:45:12. > :45:15.extraordinary man, a great evangelist. He revolutionised the
:45:16. > :45:21.office of Pope. I wrote a book about him because he is an interesting
:45:22. > :45:26.man. In terms of his management of the Vatican, and particularly the
:45:27. > :45:33.child abuse scandal, I think it is unseemly, to put it mildly, he has
:45:34. > :45:40.been made a sensor quickly. Father... The first and last words
:45:41. > :45:45.out of any Catholic priest 's mouth about the child abuse scandal is, I
:45:46. > :45:54.am sorry and I am ashamed. Pretty much that is all I can say, apart
:45:55. > :45:58.from, I am not like that. However fast we, the higher article
:45:59. > :46:13.institution of the Church, acts, I do not think it will ever be enough.
:46:14. > :46:18.Is it a slur on his record? I would hope he has been made a saint today
:46:19. > :46:23.because of the man and not the office. I hope I do not create a
:46:24. > :46:27.false distinction when I talk about something which is really important.
:46:28. > :46:33.The key thing that, apart from having to be dead to be a saint, the
:46:34. > :46:37.key thing that most saints are is really flawed characters. Right from
:46:38. > :46:43.Saint Peter. I do not think there a single saint who was not a flawed
:46:44. > :46:50.character. You said earlier on that you think your granny is a saint. I
:46:51. > :46:53.am sure she is. I learned at school a saint was an ordinary person who
:46:54. > :46:58.did extraordinary things extraordinarily well. My grounded
:46:59. > :47:03.back. She is a saint for me. As Lord as she was, she pointed me in the
:47:04. > :47:08.right direction. I would like to think, she is dead and in heaven and
:47:09. > :47:14.I have a friend. I think that is what we get from all the saints. It
:47:15. > :47:19.is certainly true that all saint of flawed. Most of them had humility in
:47:20. > :47:23.common as virtue. The problem with John Paul was that when he felt
:47:24. > :47:28.strongly about something, which was most of the time, he was very
:47:29. > :47:33.uninterested in these views. He was quite an autocratic Pope. With the
:47:34. > :47:38.AIDS and condom issue in the developing world in the 1980s, he
:47:39. > :47:43.was not interested in the opposing arguments. Likewise, when the issue
:47:44. > :47:48.of women priests came up after the Anglican church voted in favour, not
:47:49. > :47:54.only did he disagreed but he stamped it out. He threatened many
:47:55. > :47:59.theologians with excommunication. He was autocratic. I have been thinking
:48:00. > :48:04.long and hard about what it means. We concentrate on John Paul II today
:48:05. > :48:09.because we remember him. He remembered the Iron Curtain coming
:48:10. > :48:20.down. Here is the thing. I have been trying to work out, one of the
:48:21. > :48:26.things they did in the church, at the same time, both people moved the
:48:27. > :48:33.Church into a position where it engaged with the world at large
:48:34. > :48:39.rather than stood against it. John Paul II started the second Vatican
:48:40. > :48:42.Council. They thought it would buy loot the power. When one of his
:48:43. > :48:48.staff asked him what he hoped to achieve, he said, maybe we will let
:48:49. > :48:53.a little fresh air in. I do believe that is what happened with the
:48:54. > :48:59.second Vatican Council. With John Paul II, he made the worldwide
:49:00. > :49:03.Church a small place. He went all over the place. I do think that
:49:04. > :49:09.means, and this is not to exonerate him, I do think that means, at the
:49:10. > :49:24.end of his papacy, the curious certainly ruled the roost. Sign a
:49:25. > :49:31.crowed the point about being made a saint, he has done good, a lot of
:49:32. > :49:36.good, but he has also done things which are not good. Child abuse. You
:49:37. > :49:41.can never get rid of child abuse but you can investigate it, once it
:49:42. > :49:50.comes about. The other point is, to me, the person who I feel should be
:49:51. > :49:57.a saint is to create lasting peace in the world. Who is that going to
:49:58. > :50:02.be? Do you want to say something? There is a lot of evidence to
:50:03. > :50:09.suggest the fact he has been made a saint is a disgrace. A disgrace? The
:50:10. > :50:12.sexual abuse scandal, which was in the paper for 27 years and the
:50:13. > :50:17.evidence would mount up over the years. He wilfully ignored such
:50:18. > :50:24.evidence, as well as lack of contraception in Africa. Do you
:50:25. > :50:32.think people died as a result of the papacy? Definitely as a result of
:50:33. > :50:39.his policy in Africa. Sign up 1.76 billion people have died abortion.
:50:40. > :50:43.-- 1.76 billion people have died from abortion. We cannot use people
:50:44. > :50:48.for economic reasons or sexual reasons. We have to appreciate that
:50:49. > :50:55.every person is important. It is about respecting people. Do you want
:50:56. > :51:01.to respond to the figures on abortion? The concept of dying from
:51:02. > :51:08.abortion. I thought you might want to respond to that. Generally about
:51:09. > :51:14.the sainthood, it is alien for Muslims. Do you respect John Paul II
:51:15. > :51:21.as a religious bigot? For what he has done, I have to object. If there
:51:22. > :51:29.are problems with what he has done, I have a problem with sainthood as a
:51:30. > :51:32.whole. There is no hierarchy. The moment you create summary as a saint
:51:33. > :51:38.can you create someone as hierarchical. To find God, do we
:51:39. > :51:43.need different tiers within our lifestyle? Should we not all have
:51:44. > :51:51.direct access to God? I am thinking, it does not sit very well with me.
:51:52. > :51:58.In heaven, is he at the top table? Definitely not the hierarchy. No
:51:59. > :52:06.backstage pass and all of that. I hope not. My Gran is at the
:52:07. > :52:14.communion of the saints. It will not do anyone else any good but I know.
:52:15. > :52:18.It is a level playing field. We are the way that somebody lived their
:52:19. > :52:23.lives. What we want from all people of faith, ultimately, is that their
:52:24. > :52:29.life somehow points towards God. Not in a perfect way. That guy or that
:52:30. > :52:35.lady, they pointed me towards God in some way? We want a quick way of
:52:36. > :52:39.understanding. Imagine your favourite film star and you are
:52:40. > :52:42.invited to a party and you get to meet them. You are a bit nervous and
:52:43. > :52:46.he had been a fan of those ages and you are going to meet them. They
:52:47. > :52:51.will be late in the party. At the party, there are lots of other film
:52:52. > :52:57.stars that you know you think, that actor was in that film and that
:52:58. > :53:09.actress. You up the courage and to find out... The point is, they tell
:53:10. > :53:26.you a story. With the Prophet Mohammed V made a saint? You have to
:53:27. > :53:36.be a Catholic, says Sarah. I will be with you in a minute. What do you
:53:37. > :53:40.make of this as a Muslim theologian? There is a phrase, the friends of
:53:41. > :53:47.God, and they are basically people who do good. An early theological
:53:48. > :53:50.text said all believers are Friends of God. I would include that to
:53:51. > :53:56.people of all religions and faiths who are good. Also, to humanists and
:53:57. > :54:01.others, who do not have a formal faith if you like but too good. Only
:54:02. > :54:05.God knows in the end who does good. The second issue about all of this
:54:06. > :54:11.is the issue of miracles. That is very interesting. The Catholic
:54:12. > :54:15.Church insists the three miracles or something. Our miracles within the
:54:16. > :54:22.laws of nature or do they break the laws of nature? Does God break the
:54:23. > :54:27.laws of nature? That is an interesting question. I do not want
:54:28. > :54:31.to be relativist. It is only Catholics who can become saints.
:54:32. > :54:41.There are lots of other people in heaven. We do believe that. That is
:54:42. > :54:48.a two tiered heaven, isn't it? Within the communion of saints,
:54:49. > :54:52.there are people... We are talking about saints and miracles. We honour
:54:53. > :54:57.our saints. It is part of our tradition, part of our faith. What
:54:58. > :55:01.is really interesting, when Pope Francis Kane, sorry, when Pope
:55:02. > :55:08.Benedict came in 2010, he spoke to the young people in this country and
:55:09. > :55:15.said, God wants you all to be saints. Hopefully I am speaking to
:55:16. > :55:19.some saints now. You have lots to say in the last debate. The missing
:55:20. > :55:22.picture from the legacy of John Paul is the political stance. That is
:55:23. > :55:28.something that was very unpopular with people over the world. He sided
:55:29. > :55:32.with the Reagan administration for a long period. That reflected in the
:55:33. > :55:37.negative policies in Latin America and the Middle East. That picture
:55:38. > :55:44.must be mentioned when talking about him. He sided with the Reagan
:55:45. > :55:51.administration. It was at the time of the Cold War. If you listen to
:55:52. > :55:56.the speech is by John Paul, he saw the horrors that were going on. When
:55:57. > :56:02.he spoke to them, he shook them up. He said, you the powerful, you allow
:56:03. > :56:08.these wicked conditions to carry on. It is not just, it is not human. He
:56:09. > :56:16.was no great fan of the liberation theology is. Many were radical. He
:56:17. > :56:23.empathised with the suffering. He went to 104 countries to be close to
:56:24. > :56:26.the suffering. Although he sided with the Reagan administration,
:56:27. > :56:31.particularly with the fall of communism, he condemned the first
:56:32. > :56:36.Iraq War and was generally quite anti-war. He was not really corkage
:56:37. > :56:45.on the Middle East. He was in the war against communism, which he
:56:46. > :56:57.helped with. He did very little for the Middle East and Latin America.
:56:58. > :57:05.He took sides. I do not think it is fair to say that about Reagan. In
:57:06. > :57:09.the Jewish tradition, we teach that anyone who is a good person, whether
:57:10. > :57:13.Jewish or not Jewish, can get to heaven, and we are judged by our
:57:14. > :57:19.deeds. The important part of this discussion, I'm not going to go into
:57:20. > :57:22.the details of religious policy, but the important aspect of this
:57:23. > :57:28.discussion is, what is the role of religion in a modern world?
:57:29. > :57:32.Progressive Jews read our texts, our biblical texts, in such a way as
:57:33. > :57:37.they should be liberating. That includes taking a public stance
:57:38. > :57:44.towards gender equality. The Scriptures and the Bible, it says
:57:45. > :57:50.very clearly, not by mites, not by power but through my spirit. That
:57:51. > :57:56.could be a continual impulse of religion. We only have maybe 20
:57:57. > :58:02.seconds. What would you like to say on this auspicious day? He gave us
:58:03. > :58:07.hope. He said everyone is valuable. He said two women, your hour has
:58:08. > :58:12.come. You are called to humanise the world as women. Not by being men but
:58:13. > :58:16.women because you are absolutely special. Priests had a spiritual
:58:17. > :58:21.fatherhood and each of you is a spiritual mother, whether you are
:58:22. > :58:26.single or married. He said that God is alive in all of us. God is alive
:58:27. > :58:32.in all of us. She is more bored than you. The debate will continue
:58:33. > :58:38.online. We'll be back from York next week. Thank you for watching.