:00:00. > :00:28.Today, 0-hour contracts, racism in the church, and shirking dads.
:00:29. > :00:36.Yes, good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell. Today, we are live from
:00:37. > :00:43.Goldsmiths University of London, welcome, to the big questions.
:00:44. > :00:50.Zero-hour contracts are when you sign up to work for a company but
:00:51. > :00:55.that employer has no obligation to offer you any hours. They are common
:00:56. > :01:00.in retail, catering and tourism. Buckingham Palace uses them. Many
:01:01. > :01:03.workers like the flexibility, especially students who work for a
:01:04. > :01:06.little bit extra. Many cannot make ends meet when they have no idea how
:01:07. > :01:15.much money they are going to earn each week. Refusing at zero-hour
:01:16. > :01:22.contract could lose you state benefits. Are they ethical?
:01:23. > :01:28.Christian May from the Institute of directors. Some say there are more
:01:29. > :01:32.here than ever before, is this flexibility or is it exploitation?
:01:33. > :01:35.It is definitely flexibility. The numbers involved have been up for
:01:36. > :01:39.debate in the last couple of months. numbers involved have been up for
:01:40. > :01:43.debate in the The Office for National Statistics, who have done
:01:44. > :01:47.the most recent analysis of the Labour market, have said there are
:01:48. > :01:52.1.4 million such contracts in use. That is not to be confused with 1.4
:01:53. > :01:56.million people on these contracts because people will have more than
:01:57. > :02:01.one, sometimes they might have won and they will be dormant. It is
:02:02. > :02:06.important to keep in perspective, we are talking about 5% of the Labour
:02:07. > :02:13.market, and within that, we know that 65% of people on such
:02:14. > :02:19.arrangements say that they have high job satisfaction. 60% say they value
:02:20. > :02:23.the flexibility to such an extent that they would rather not work in
:02:24. > :02:27.different conditions. Both of those statistics are a little bit higher
:02:28. > :02:30.when you ask the question of people in overall employment. The
:02:31. > :02:36.flexibility, valuable to businesses and employers, but also not to
:02:37. > :02:40.forget there are a lot of people whose lifestyle means these
:02:41. > :02:44.contracts suit them. I think recognising that flexibility is
:02:45. > :02:49.important, but so is clamping down on areas where they are not used
:02:50. > :02:54.properly. Not making them exclusive. Would it not be better to have a
:02:55. > :02:57.short-term contract? What about the situation where you're waiting for
:02:58. > :03:05.the phone call, you cannot work, you are incredibly paranoid. You have
:03:06. > :03:08.hit the nail on the head. It is the flexibility of saying you cannot
:03:09. > :03:13.work tomorrow, you will work on Saturday. Will you get that call?
:03:14. > :03:17.80% of people have said they have never been penalised if they have
:03:18. > :03:22.not been able to take the work offered. That is important. One of
:03:23. > :03:25.the issues about this is the way it has been hitched to the political
:03:26. > :03:30.and social debate about the nature of recovery and employment. It is
:03:31. > :03:38.often thrown out when people are talking about the economic recovery.
:03:39. > :03:44.They will just chuck in 0-hour contracts as reason why it is going
:03:45. > :03:49.wrong. Labour are not 1 million miles away from the government or
:03:50. > :03:54.the Institute of directors. We are very active, we do not support
:03:55. > :03:58.exclusivity contracts, we think they need to be flexible. If you are
:03:59. > :04:02.saying you cannot work for other people at the same time, you have no
:04:03. > :04:09.flexibility. When you get them right, they are incredibly valuable.
:04:10. > :04:15.Owen Jones. S nobody is arguing against flexibility. The problem is
:04:16. > :04:20.they give flexibility to the employer and in flexibility to the
:04:21. > :04:25.employee. In other countries they have ways of providing flexibility.
:04:26. > :04:36.S in the Netherlands and Belgium, employees can negotiate fewer
:04:37. > :04:40.working hours. The problem is there is a return to Victorian ages, when
:04:41. > :04:45.doctors would stick their hands up hoping to get work. These days, I
:04:46. > :04:52.meet young people who get up at 6am waiting to get a text message if
:04:53. > :04:56.they have any hours. Firstly, the large majority of people on
:04:57. > :05:01.zero-hour contracts are below the living wage. The Office for National
:05:02. > :05:06.Statistics show that those on temporary contracts have far lower
:05:07. > :05:13.levels of well-being than those on permanent contracts. That is often
:05:14. > :05:18.not the case. It is the case. The other point is you can be on call
:05:19. > :05:25.all day, from 9am until last thing at night, when you only have 20 set
:05:26. > :05:30.hours that week. You have an exclusivity clause, you cannot work
:05:31. > :05:35.for other employers during that period. It is very hard to claim
:05:36. > :05:39.work benefits. It has to be seen as part of a general trend of stripping
:05:40. > :05:45.security from the workplace. We have seen the growth of self-employment,
:05:46. > :05:48.it is often unemployment. It happened to my dad.
:05:49. > :05:52.it is often unemployment. It people are on very low wages, they
:05:53. > :05:57.do not have pension rights, leave rights, redundancy pay. So it
:05:58. > :05:58.do not have pension rights, leave trampling on workers rights. S let
:05:59. > :06:13.us have flexibility but not at the of this in Europe. Come back on
:06:14. > :06:17.this. 80% of these people have never been sanctioned. We know this
:06:18. > :06:23.because the report we are referring to says 60% of people value the
:06:24. > :06:28.worklife balance whereas if you ask them across general employment that
:06:29. > :06:35.slipped to 58%. If we are talking about this as if these are a symptom
:06:36. > :06:42.of a Dickensian workplace, it is simply not the case. Demographics
:06:43. > :06:45.mean the workforce is changing, so this example, I will say one
:06:46. > :06:53.circumstance whether can be two scenarios. -- where there can be.
:06:54. > :06:58.Older people, younger people going back into work, you could say that
:06:59. > :07:00.is a symptom of people taking more ownership of their Labour and
:07:01. > :07:06.responding to a change in the workforce and people having more
:07:07. > :07:10.than one job, or you can say it is a symptom of an insecure environment.
:07:11. > :07:18.The truth is it is somewhere between the two. Often you cannot get a job
:07:19. > :07:24.because of exclusivity clauses. They are used in only very rare
:07:25. > :07:34.circumstances and we are against them. You run a company, there you
:07:35. > :07:41.are. How useful are these for you? We have about 200 engineers
:07:42. > :07:45.travelling round London, and we use them for our engineers, and they
:07:46. > :07:50.suit us and the engineers. Why do they suit the engineers? They make
:07:51. > :07:54.plans around, looking after kids during the day, some of them will
:07:55. > :07:57.want to work different schedules, so we will meet with them at the
:07:58. > :08:00.beginning of the month and work out the times they want to work during
:08:01. > :08:04.that month, then we will map that out and work it in with our
:08:05. > :08:08.schedules, so it suits both sides. If you take it to an extreme and you
:08:09. > :08:13.say there are exclusivity clauses and no protections, then yes,
:08:14. > :08:18.certainly zero-hour contracts should not be handled that way. Do they
:08:19. > :08:29.have a concern if they cannot do the work that day? You're not getting a
:08:30. > :08:35.text message an hour before you're supposed to turn up. It just means
:08:36. > :08:42.we have the flexibility at looking at whether cycles, I'm busy we might
:08:43. > :08:52.be, so that we can plan the workforce. -- how busy we might be.
:08:53. > :08:55.We do not have anyone getting less hours than they want. They are on
:08:56. > :09:04.better rate than they would be if they were on full-time. The word
:09:05. > :09:08.flexibility is being used a lot, but my question would be, flexibility
:09:09. > :09:13.for who? These contracts have been around for many years and in some
:09:14. > :09:17.circumstances, they work very well. The problem is when they become the
:09:18. > :09:23.norm rather than the exception, and at the organisation I run, we work
:09:24. > :09:27.with people on these contracts to help them organise to negotiate
:09:28. > :09:30.better rates for themselves, especially at universities where
:09:31. > :09:36.they are being used, because increasingly they are being relied
:09:37. > :09:43.on as the norm, they do not provide security. They were originally
:09:44. > :09:47.designed to be used as a stopgap, to retain employees when you were in
:09:48. > :09:55.difficulty. For students, is it a good way to get extra money? If you
:09:56. > :09:59.get the hours. That is the key point. If we look at this as an
:10:00. > :10:05.ethical question, employment relationship is just that, a
:10:06. > :10:11.relationship based on reciprocity. I give you my Labour and I am paid for
:10:12. > :10:18.what I do. Zero-hour contracts, if used or abused, break down that
:10:19. > :10:20.reciprocity. They leave people open and vulnerable to abuse and in
:10:21. > :10:26.situations where they do not know where their income is coming from.
:10:27. > :10:30.That is just making sure employers cannot abuse them. So it has a place
:10:31. > :10:38.in the market and their need to be controls in place so that people
:10:39. > :10:44.cannot abuse it. -- there must be. People talk about it as a great
:10:45. > :10:47.social ill. We have members representing small and medium
:10:48. > :10:52.businesses and we asked 1000 if they use zero-hour contracts, 10% of them
:10:53. > :10:57.said they use 10% of their work on them. If it works, is there a danger
:10:58. > :11:04.that employees will be worried that they may no longer be on the job
:11:05. > :11:07.role and be moved to zero-hour contracts. It is the other way
:11:08. > :11:14.round, people move from zero-hour contracts into the full-time role.
:11:15. > :11:18.So it gives them experience. I think these are very useful for students
:11:19. > :11:23.because the flexibility allows them to work around the exam schedule,
:11:24. > :11:30.and also for working parents, because they can work around looking
:11:31. > :11:35.after their kids. Nothing there that you have mentioned could not be
:11:36. > :11:42.achieved by other forms of more traditional contracts that would
:11:43. > :11:47.guarantee leave and pay. A lot of my friends would not have jobs without
:11:48. > :11:53.zero-hour contracts. You can have flexible working arrangements
:11:54. > :11:56.without that. On your point, nearly half of people on these contracts
:11:57. > :12:04.have been on them for more than two years. They are not a stepping
:12:05. > :12:07.stone. They can be. They are not necessarily a stepping stone. The
:12:08. > :12:12.other point is this, the Confederation of British industry,
:12:13. > :12:16.the voice of bosses in this country, a few years ago published a report
:12:17. > :12:21.looking for a flexible workforce, depending on this transient
:12:22. > :12:24.workforce. That means stripping people of pension rights, redundancy
:12:25. > :12:34.pay, maternity leave, all of those things. They are just really useful.
:12:35. > :12:40.Let us have a flexible debate. Good morning, how are you doing? It is
:12:41. > :12:44.good we are talking about these contracts but what are we talking
:12:45. > :12:49.about? Minimum wage or public sector? I am a nurse, we are always
:12:50. > :12:53.short of staff, they come in with a list, I do not do this, I do not do
:12:54. > :12:58.that, but at the end of the day, they get paid more than me. Double
:12:59. > :13:03.than me. If you look at the other side of the minimum wage, the family
:13:04. > :13:07.who depend on this sort of work might just think they do not have
:13:08. > :13:12.work today but tomorrow they might work on minimum wage. That does not
:13:13. > :13:17.support the family. We're talking about the public sector and the
:13:18. > :13:22.private sector. A gentleman on the other side. Read Mac the main
:13:23. > :13:28.problem is there is not a lot of security with the job, really. --
:13:29. > :13:40.the main problem. Until that, the problem will be very big. You have
:13:41. > :13:46.picked up the baton. The 80% statistics, I know a restaurant
:13:47. > :13:50.owner who said they have slipped down the list because they could not
:13:51. > :13:57.come in. I'm just saying, exactly, you don't know that. I would not
:13:58. > :14:06.trust that 80%. I do, because that is the office of National
:14:07. > :14:10.statistics. Cole Moreton has entered the fray. Your statistic tells us
:14:11. > :14:13.that one in five people have been penalised for turning down work. I
:14:14. > :14:19.don't think that is acceptable, do you? I do not, I am talking about
:14:20. > :14:27.the fringe issues, that is the massive bulk. Your other statistics
:14:28. > :14:31.said nearly one in ten are on exclusive contracts. I will tell you
:14:32. > :14:39.why, they use exclusivity clauses because it might be someone of great
:14:40. > :14:43.technical skill, they are used in professions, to protect intellectual
:14:44. > :14:48.property, training purposes, it is not always used in low paid work.
:14:49. > :14:51.They are also used by employers to avoid the obligations to help people
:14:52. > :14:57.with families who need flexible working, legislation brought in
:14:58. > :15:05.recently has made employers have to find a way around that. Well... We
:15:06. > :15:13.do not support instances where they are used in place of full-time
:15:14. > :15:16.employment. I assume you would be against exclusivity clauses. With
:15:17. > :15:19.the exception of the instances I have referred to, we think there
:15:20. > :15:23.should be a role for them when they can be justified for a very
:15:24. > :15:30.particular reason. What I don't understand, I can understand will
:15:31. > :15:33.having this -- you having this, getting outside, getting the
:15:34. > :15:42.conservatory fixed, but what about the high street stores we have been
:15:43. > :15:50.hearing about, chain restaurants, surely they know how many people
:15:51. > :15:54.they will need? I would not defend bad practice, you would have to get
:15:55. > :15:59.them in here to do so. -- I would not defend that practice. If you
:16:00. > :16:05.take Hertz car hire, they say 20% of people they ploy on zero our
:16:06. > :16:10.contracts, 20% move into full-time roles -- they employ. It is useful
:16:11. > :16:15.not to reduce this to a pantomime villain. If an elderly worsen or a
:16:16. > :16:20.person who is retired keeps one foot in the door, that is good for them
:16:21. > :16:27.as elderly person -- elderly person. Do you need that flexible T?
:16:28. > :16:30.It can't really be generalised, what about single-parent families and
:16:31. > :16:34.people who rely on these hours, how are they going to feed their family
:16:35. > :16:40.and support their families? It is not very generous. Do we need to
:16:41. > :16:47.make sure there are four per regulations in place? Minimum hours
:16:48. > :16:56.and certain rights? -- proper regulations. I think this habit
:16:57. > :17:00.moves away from making it mutually satisfying. It allows companies to
:17:01. > :17:04.move away from that. When I was growing up, we were saying there is
:17:05. > :17:10.too much power in the workforce, unions are too powerful, it has gone
:17:11. > :17:17.completely the other way. I think the point is a good one. It is the
:17:18. > :17:21.government's role to set a standard for basic employment rights. Where
:17:22. > :17:28.you have situations of zero our contracts that lapse for a period of
:17:29. > :17:36.weeks, interrupts employment, they break peoples rights. According to
:17:37. > :17:39.Vince Cable, we are competing in a global market with countries where
:17:40. > :17:43.there are no rights whatsoever. Do we need to cut our cloth
:17:44. > :17:49.accordingly? If we go down that way it is a race to the bottom. It is a
:17:50. > :17:52.race to the bottom argument. At the moment we live in a country where
:17:53. > :17:56.most people in poverty are in work, they get up in the morning and they
:17:57. > :18:00.earn their poverty. That costs a taxpayer in huge amount of money
:18:01. > :18:04.because we spend money on in work benefits. It sucks demand out of the
:18:05. > :18:08.economy because people can't spend and depend on cheap credit. Wages
:18:09. > :18:13.are far lower than most other workers. They don't have security
:18:14. > :18:16.week after week if they are on zero our contracts. We are stripping
:18:17. > :18:17.week after week if they are on zero the workforce pension rights, paid
:18:18. > :18:23.leave, sick days, we should be the workforce pension rights, paid
:18:24. > :18:27.arguing for a race to the top to improve and extend workers rights,
:18:28. > :18:30.not to drag everyone to the bottom as we are at the moment. Thank you
:18:31. > :18:36.very much. APPLAUSE
:18:37. > :18:45.Your thoughts on that. You can react on Twitter. Follow the link on our
:18:46. > :18:50.website to where you can join the discussion online. We are debating
:18:51. > :18:58.live this morning from Goldsmiths University. Is the Church of England
:18:59. > :19:06.is usually racist? Are the fathers doing their fair share?
:19:07. > :19:17.Love your neighbour as yourself. given to us by Jesus. And possibly
:19:18. > :19:20.the hardest to keep. Is it especially shocking when the Church
:19:21. > :19:24.of England has to acknowledge there is still racism in its midst?
:19:25. > :19:30.Something they first acknowledged in 1987. This week the house of Bishops
:19:31. > :19:33.announced it is working on a plan to double the number of minority ethnic
:19:34. > :19:38.clergy in senior positions over the next decade. There are currently
:19:39. > :19:43.fewer than five. Is the Church of England institutionally racist? Lay
:19:44. > :19:46.member of the sea not, Alison Ruoff, is a big problem? -- the General
:19:47. > :20:02.Synod. No. Is that the debate over? I think it is blown out of all
:20:03. > :20:05.proportion. I think every church... I correct that, not every church is
:20:06. > :20:10.as welcoming as they should be but most churches are. But yours is the
:20:11. > :20:19.state church, the established church. What has that got to do with
:20:20. > :20:25.it? Is it properly reflecting modern society? There is a survey out that
:20:26. > :20:29.by 2050, one third of this country not going to be white. You have to
:20:30. > :20:33.do something about it, otherwise the Church of England will become
:20:34. > :20:36.irrelevant. The Church of England would become irrelevant as far as I
:20:37. > :20:41.can see. It might divide over various issues but it is not
:20:42. > :20:45.relevant -- the Church of England won't become irrelevant as far as I
:20:46. > :20:48.can see. Because it is the established church there is the
:20:49. > :20:51.opportunity for the Christian message to go to every house in
:20:52. > :20:57.every parish. Whether it does or not is another matter. I think we work
:20:58. > :21:03.ourselves up into a frenzy about institutional racism. If you go to a
:21:04. > :21:07.church in a village say in the depths of Devon or Norfolk, you
:21:08. > :21:12.might not see any people then click minority because simply they don't
:21:13. > :21:15.live there. -- of an ethnic minority. If you go to a church in
:21:16. > :21:19.central London you will probably see a lot of people of all sorts of
:21:20. > :21:25.ethnic minorities, worshipping together and getting on very well.
:21:26. > :21:29.We could walk out of the door here and there would be five Pentecostal
:21:30. > :21:35.churches that are full to the brim. And that is wonderful. But people
:21:36. > :21:40.like to be with their own. We have to remember that. They do. For
:21:41. > :21:43.example, if you come from France and you have French neighbours, will you
:21:44. > :21:52.tend to be with your French neighbours? Absolutely ludicrous...
:21:53. > :21:56.It is true. If you are in central London, Oxford Circus, everybody is
:21:57. > :22:00.speaking their own language in their groups. They don't suddenly start
:22:01. > :22:06.speaking English. Unless they have to. We need to make a strong
:22:07. > :22:12.demarcation between the experience in churches that Alison is talking
:22:13. > :22:16.about, what ever parish they may be come and the experience of the
:22:17. > :22:21.church, the institution of the church. Alison will know full well,
:22:22. > :22:24.in 1985, the faith in the city report came out and one of the
:22:25. > :22:30.things that was hidden away in that apostolate clear message to the
:22:31. > :22:35.Church of England, -- hidden away in that but was still a clear message,
:22:36. > :22:38.people from Africa and Asia are Christians and believers and unless
:22:39. > :22:43.you are opening unwelcome to them, you will not engage with them. The
:22:44. > :22:46.Church of England has not engaged with them put up the Pentecostal
:22:47. > :22:50.church is growing enormously, not just because people want to flock
:22:51. > :22:58.together but because in many cases, when they came, they were not
:22:59. > :23:02.welcome in their own church. I know that in my own experiences. My
:23:03. > :23:06.parents were not welcomed in Anglican churches so they had to
:23:07. > :23:13.splinter off and create their own churches. What did that not welcome
:23:14. > :23:19.mean, how did that manifest itself? When we used to go to a church, it
:23:20. > :23:25.was staid and dry and boring. The preacher would say something, people
:23:26. > :23:30.like performing seals, they would clap every now and then, there was
:23:31. > :23:35.no interaction. There was no joy, no spirit, you couldn't read the
:23:36. > :23:38.emotive. My mother always says, if you go to church and the preacher
:23:39. > :23:43.doesn't move you with the word, he is not doing his job. There is joy
:23:44. > :23:50.and pleasure in the Anglican Church, you just got the wrong one.
:23:51. > :23:55.Maybe as a child I was continually exposed to the wrong one. Maybe you
:23:56. > :24:05.should go to one of the services, let your hair down. I haven't got
:24:06. > :24:11.long enough hair! Alison says people like to be with their own. Is that
:24:12. > :24:14.Christianity? The Christian faith has a powerful vision of people of
:24:15. > :24:20.every tribe gathering together in worship. The failure of the Church
:24:21. > :24:23.of England is that is not exhibited with sufficient enthusiasm, energy,
:24:24. > :24:29.vigour, because plans are not made to make it that way. Institutional
:24:30. > :24:34.racism means... There needs to be a conscious effort.
:24:35. > :24:40.It is not true, we live in this hugely diverse city, London. In
:24:41. > :24:44.Britain we have some of the highest levels of mixed race Thracian chips
:24:45. > :24:47.on the face of the earth. People in this city and elsewhere, they lived
:24:48. > :24:51.together, they work together, they even sleep together in some cases,
:24:52. > :24:54.they are setting up families, they are living together. If the church
:24:55. > :25:00.is going to die it will be because of people like you. One in seven
:25:01. > :25:10.people are going to a religious service. Do you go to church? I
:25:11. > :25:22.don't. How do you know? I will turn that on its head, why are so few
:25:23. > :25:26.people going to churches? My daughter goes to a church that is
:25:27. > :25:32.not an anger can church. She goes to Hill song from Australia -- not an
:25:33. > :25:37.Anglican church. On Easter Sunday they had 10,000 young people going
:25:38. > :25:43.to church. On Good Friday they had 450 young people baptised. You can't
:25:44. > :25:48.tell me Christianity is dead. I didn't say it was dead. I said
:25:49. > :25:53.people like you will ensure it won't be relevant. I believe young people
:25:54. > :26:02.are most welcome in the Church of England. I want to establish
:26:03. > :26:05.something. Everybody who goes to church can hear the good news of
:26:06. > :26:11.Jesus Christ, that is what I care about. John Root, let's get back to
:26:12. > :26:16.it, is the Church of England institutionally racist? Yeah,
:26:17. > :26:24.because I think institutional racism isn't just an unkind and nasty to
:26:25. > :26:27.people. It is much more subtle and it is the way the institution
:26:28. > :26:30.chooses to operate. Institutions tend to operate in the way that
:26:31. > :26:34.those who lead a comfortable... That is different from the way ordinary
:26:35. > :26:41.white people, certainly ordinary black people feel. There is that
:26:42. > :26:44.exclusion which Les was indicating when he said it was boring and so
:26:45. > :26:48.on, it is not just that people who think that come why people think
:26:49. > :26:55.that. It needs to be an intentional way to change the -- desire to
:26:56. > :27:02.change the way we operate. -- it is not just black people who think
:27:03. > :27:05.that, white people think that. How do we get a situation where there
:27:06. > :27:11.are more black leaders in the Church of England? We have to have the
:27:12. > :27:16.right conversation, every historical cause has a contemporary
:27:17. > :27:21.consequence. We know that the Church of England, Anglican Church, what
:27:22. > :27:25.ever, all of them were involved in slavery. I think only the Quakers
:27:26. > :27:31.were not involved. It doesn't matter if it was a long time ago, think
:27:32. > :27:34.about it in this way. If you are a black person in this congregation
:27:35. > :27:40.and it is more or less all-white and you are in the, it could be
:27:41. > :27:44.all-black with a white vicar, and you
:27:45. > :27:46.all-black with a white vicar, and position because continuously
:27:47. > :27:51.reinforced ruler images, God is white, Jesus is wide, you can never
:27:52. > :27:56.aspired to be God or Jesus, you can walk in Jesus's footsteps but not be
:27:57. > :28:01.like him. These things caused this and because you don't see yourself
:28:02. > :28:05.represented in that picture. Would you be surprised that these people
:28:06. > :28:08.don't put themselves forward for those higher positions? If they are
:28:09. > :28:12.getting treated like that as members of the congregation, what will it be
:28:13. > :28:22.like if they get to the higher echelons? The thing is, the majority
:28:23. > :28:27.of Anglicans in the world are black. The majority are in Africa. And the
:28:28. > :28:32.Church of England needs to learn from that and engage with that and
:28:33. > :28:36.has a problem engaging with that, particularly over the issue of
:28:37. > :28:41.same-sex marriage at the moment. I go to church, I go to lots of
:28:42. > :28:44.churches and I see lots of churches where there are people of mixed race
:28:45. > :28:50.and different colours and different backgrounds. And they are fantastic.
:28:51. > :28:53.The issue of institutional racism, that is not reflected in the house
:28:54. > :28:58.of Bishops and leadership of the church and it is an anomaly and a
:28:59. > :29:03.disgrace. It is a very serious charge if people are saying there is
:29:04. > :29:07.institutional racism. Part of the Christian
:29:08. > :29:10.institutional racism. Part of the mentioned, it is for everybody.
:29:11. > :29:10.institutional racism. Part of the is available for everyone, whatever
:29:11. > :29:16.culture. Perhaps we need is available for everyone, whatever
:29:17. > :29:21.there something in the culture of the Church of England, particularly
:29:22. > :29:24.the leadership, it is not that people are deliberately excluding
:29:25. > :29:32.other people, it is something in the culture which is not attractive. It
:29:33. > :29:35.could be a self-perpetuating elite. It could be and that is true of a
:29:36. > :29:40.lot of organisations, not just the church. You think the church of all
:29:41. > :29:46.organisations would strive to be immune from it? As has already been
:29:47. > :29:50.mentioned, there are churches which are packed with people of allsorts
:29:51. > :29:57.of different races and the question is perhaps to ask them, especially
:29:58. > :30:03.churches with black majorities, where people are praising the Lord,
:30:04. > :30:09.confident in themselves and the gospel in their mission to their
:30:10. > :30:17.particular community, ask them, what is it about the Church of England
:30:18. > :30:24.that doesn't attract you? You are 30 years too late. It is not too late.
:30:25. > :30:29.We were having a discussion upstairs. One of the things we said
:30:30. > :30:32.was in 2007, great inroads were made. Maybe for the wrong reason,
:30:33. > :30:36.because it was the so-called abolition of the slave trade, but I
:30:37. > :30:41.was invited into more churches during that year than I ever have in
:30:42. > :30:47.my life to have these kinds of conversations. At the time I had
:30:48. > :30:52.just published a book, and I spoke about being raised as a
:30:53. > :30:56.Judaeo-Christian child, and how that affected me when I started to look
:30:57. > :31:00.at, on one hand we are encouraged to praise the Lord, everybody is
:31:01. > :31:05.welcome in the house of the Lord, but the Lord did not look like us.
:31:06. > :31:11.If you speak to black people and you say to a lot of them, if they are
:31:12. > :31:15.honest, how do you feel about a white Jesus? How would you feel
:31:16. > :31:24.about a black Jesus? They would invariably say, God has no colour.
:31:25. > :31:33.Jesus was due in Palestine. The point is that is the image that has
:31:34. > :31:42.been ingrained. -- Jesus was a Jew. Hands up on that point. The
:31:43. > :31:53.gentleman at the back. I'm an atheist, and from an organisation
:31:54. > :31:58.called the London Black Atheists. When you look at the character of
:31:59. > :32:03.contemporary religion, more often than not, contained within today's
:32:04. > :32:12.religion is misogyny, sexism, racism. Talking about the Church of
:32:13. > :32:18.England, do you feel from your experience that those things are
:32:19. > :32:23.part of attitudes within the church of England? Yes. They were
:32:24. > :32:31.responsible for partaking in slavery. I am also from the same
:32:32. > :32:37.organisation. People like to stick together.
:32:38. > :32:45.All religions are basically institutionally racist because the
:32:46. > :32:58.moment you have a religion, you have an in group and an outgroup, you
:32:59. > :33:04.have your chosen people. Are you from the Black Atheists? I am not, I
:33:05. > :33:10.was actually baptised in the Church of England but later I changed my
:33:11. > :33:17.mind to not be with them. Where do you worship now? With the Catholic
:33:18. > :33:24.Church. I know they have quite a lot of issues, but I would say the
:33:25. > :33:31.Church of England is this connected from the African Fellowship. --
:33:32. > :33:38.disconnected. Most of the issues that the Africans have in the church
:33:39. > :33:42.are not listened to. Equal marriage and so forth? They do have some
:33:43. > :33:49.strong views in their but they feel the church is unwilling to listen to
:33:50. > :33:55.any of their views. The paradox of having a massive power of the
:33:56. > :34:03.Orthodox Church, but on the matter of feeling excluded and historical
:34:04. > :34:11.reasons, what is your response? I was not around in the middle of the
:34:12. > :34:14.slave trade. Neither was I. We have moved a long way since the time when
:34:15. > :34:22.your parents came to this country, and I think in the 60s, we did not
:34:23. > :34:25.do well in welcoming people from the Caribbean nations, and I apologise
:34:26. > :34:36.for that, but we have learned a lot. I go to a church in white,
:34:37. > :34:39.middle-class area, and our congregation is composed of all
:34:40. > :34:45.sorts of people, and we get on really well. Having said that, we
:34:46. > :34:53.have only got one person of an ethnic minority on the PCC. We have
:34:54. > :34:56.had Asian people on the PCC but they don't want to stand. They don't want
:34:57. > :35:05.the responsibility, they want to do other things. It is not always easy
:35:06. > :35:11.to get people to do these particular jobs. I would love more people to
:35:12. > :35:16.come. Why don't they want more responsibility? I have no idea. This
:35:17. > :35:23.is the kind of conversation you should have. We try to persuade them
:35:24. > :35:27.to join us. If you can go to the default that they don't want to
:35:28. > :35:30.accept the responsibility, that is like when they said the black youth
:35:31. > :35:35.do not want to work because they smoke weed all the time and all this
:35:36. > :35:42.kind of crazy stuff. At the end of the day, you need a clear
:35:43. > :35:45.conversation. I run courses where we interrogate these things, and every
:35:46. > :35:52.time I run this course, I have Christians in their, black, maybe
:35:53. > :35:57.white, and they say they do not have this quality of debate or
:35:58. > :36:05.discussion. People dismiss it because of responsibility. Our
:36:06. > :36:10.famous sociologist said my position is my possession. Is that the
:36:11. > :36:20.problem? Is the problem in the pews or the hierarchy? It is in the
:36:21. > :36:25.nation, in a sense. We are terrified of the phrase institutional racism,
:36:26. > :36:30.but it is endemic because it is a general attitude of superiority, not
:36:31. > :36:34.expecting much from black people. If you listen closely to black people
:36:35. > :36:41.in the Church of England, there is this sense of not being affirmed,
:36:42. > :36:50.welcomed, not in a very overt way at all. It is a subtle way. People I
:36:51. > :36:54.know, they would not say people are racist in the sense that they are
:36:55. > :36:56.told to go away but there is a lack of interest, lack of enthusiasm,
:36:57. > :37:04.lack of readiness to learn which inhibits people. It is ordinary
:37:05. > :37:11.white people not having that zest to learn, to develop, to say, what do
:37:12. > :37:21.these people bring? The lady there, you're married to a clergyman. I am
:37:22. > :37:27.married to John Root. You said you did not want to speak earlier. What
:37:28. > :37:32.has your experience the beans -- what has your experience been? Have
:37:33. > :37:37.you experienced hostility? Yes, it did not come from everyone, but it
:37:38. > :37:41.does exist and you actually need to get to the other person's side.
:37:42. > :37:44.Alison said she does not know why they don't want to take
:37:45. > :37:54.responsibility, that just shows that you don't really understand why. Why
:37:55. > :37:58.did you get that impression? I think it is very important that we need to
:37:59. > :38:07.listen and actually to affirm, and in order to affirm, we need to
:38:08. > :38:17.recognise the gifts we have, we want to use them. It is a problem in
:38:18. > :38:21.society. Look at this panel. We are in London and all of us except for
:38:22. > :38:28.one are white. Look at the lack of black MPs, black journalists, it is
:38:29. > :38:36.a very small minority. There are only two archbishops, one is black
:38:37. > :38:41.and one is white. And after that, there are none. We have not actually
:38:42. > :38:47.developed black British ministers. Look at the numbers of black people
:38:48. > :38:53.compared with white people. There are not that many. It is not about
:38:54. > :38:57.numbers, it is about institutional racism. A telling point is, I don't
:38:58. > :39:03.know why they don't want to get involved. One thing is to talk to
:39:04. > :39:08.people, but the other thing is we need to be open, whether it is in
:39:09. > :39:12.sexist or racist context, we need to be prepared to change and move our
:39:13. > :39:18.institutions to change the way they operate. It is not about saying, why
:39:19. > :39:22.don't you want to take a role in my institution as it is? It is about
:39:23. > :39:29.saying, what is it about this institution that we need to change.
:39:30. > :39:33.This is a church whereby everybody is welcome, it does not matter who
:39:34. > :39:40.they are, what colour. Last word, Andrew. There is a
:39:41. > :39:41.they are, what colour. Last word, in society about participation,
:39:42. > :39:47.volunteering, that is probably in society about participation,
:39:48. > :39:53.case in many institutions, so I think there is a challenge to the
:39:54. > :39:53.case in many institutions, so I a constant challenge in terms of
:39:54. > :39:58.persuading people of all different a constant challenge in terms of
:39:59. > :40:04.types, you could talk about white, working-class men or any other
:40:05. > :40:07.group, in order to encourage people who look at the thing and say,
:40:08. > :40:12.group, in order to encourage people is not me. There is a challenge for
:40:13. > :40:20.that, encouraging participation, that is true of the church and all
:40:21. > :40:24.other organisations. Thank you for that. You can join in the debates on
:40:25. > :40:31.the website. Follow the link to the online discussion. You can tweet as
:40:32. > :40:39.well. Tell us what you think about the last question. Ask others doing
:40:40. > :40:48.their fair share? If you would like to be in the audience you can
:40:49. > :40:51.e-mail. -- Are fathers. We are looking for audiences for Walsall
:40:52. > :40:56.and Brighton. Next week we are back at Goldsmiths with a special edition
:40:57. > :41:04.asking whether the First World War changed Britain for the better.
:41:05. > :41:07.Jeremy Paxman, David Stevenson amongst those taking part. Do join
:41:08. > :41:17.us. Finland, Norway, Sweden, Iceland and
:41:18. > :41:21.Denmark are the best five countries in the world to be a mother,
:41:22. > :41:30.according to a survey this week. The UK came the 26th, people with
:41:31. > :41:43.Belarus -- equal. One factor is even though mothers are the main, they do
:41:44. > :41:47.most of the cooking and housework. 26 equal with Belarus, that is even
:41:48. > :41:53.worse than last night in the Eurovision Song Contest. I'm not
:41:54. > :42:01.surprised at all because men are not pulling their weight. A large study
:42:02. > :42:05.was done in 2012 that found 80% of married women did the majority of
:42:06. > :42:12.the housework and over the last few decades we have not this change. One
:42:13. > :42:15.of the three top reasons why people divorce is neglect, feeling
:42:16. > :42:21.neglected, lack of respect, because it is not the big thing that break a
:42:22. > :42:24.couple up like which city they live in, because people realise as a
:42:25. > :42:28.couple they can see the point of view on a big issue, it is the
:42:29. > :42:33.little things, when a man will not help lay the table, pick up after
:42:34. > :42:39.the kids, do the washing, those are the things that erode the
:42:40. > :42:45.relationships and damage them. Rebecca, you have written a book,
:42:46. > :42:51.that is why you're here. Modern motherhood and the illusion of
:42:52. > :42:58.equality. Perhaps there are some old attitudes that persist. A woman's
:42:59. > :43:05.work is never done, honey, I am home. How much is that cultural? The
:43:06. > :43:08.interesting thing is a lot of it is cultural, but it is linked to the
:43:09. > :43:11.supporting structures and legislation in a country. It is no
:43:12. > :43:16.accident that the countries that come out top in that research in
:43:17. > :43:21.terms of having a good environment for mothers are the same countries
:43:22. > :43:28.that encourage fathers to do as much as possible. These are countries
:43:29. > :43:33.that lay down very firm cultural expectation, that others will take
:43:34. > :43:37.their fair share in the household, countries that do as much as
:43:38. > :43:44.possible to bring fathers in in the early days of childcare, so they
:43:45. > :43:51.have shared parental leave. Hard habit to break. It takes focus and a
:43:52. > :43:54.bit of a stick and carrot to get fathers involved. What those
:43:55. > :44:02.countries have is a long length of ring fenced paternity leave for
:44:03. > :44:07.fathers. It is use it or lose it, they either take it or it is
:44:08. > :44:12.completely falls away. It forces fathers, in just the same way as
:44:13. > :44:21.mothers, to come to terms with childcare. It is strange that that
:44:22. > :44:25.is a stick. It is a carrot and a stick. Parenthood is learned on the
:44:26. > :44:30.job. You take a deep breath, you get in there, it is really hard and
:44:31. > :44:33.really rewarding. It is two sides of the same coin. I'm sure there are
:44:34. > :44:44.mothers and fathers in this room who would agree. We are in 2014 and we
:44:45. > :44:51.still do not have pay parity between men and women. Outside of the home
:44:52. > :44:55.we are so lackadaisical. We still have this pervasive attitude within
:44:56. > :45:02.the home that women are going to get along and do things. We do have pay
:45:03. > :45:07.parity, this is how. In the 20s and 30s, men and women get paid the
:45:08. > :45:14.same. We don't have a gender pay gap, we have it kicking in when we
:45:15. > :45:21.start to force mothers-to-be the main carer and force fathers to be
:45:22. > :45:25.the main earner. You only need to look at the countries at the top of
:45:26. > :45:30.the list, where the roles are shared more equally, fathers have equal
:45:31. > :45:34.rights. We have given women equal rights in the workplace, we have not
:45:35. > :45:42.given fathers equal rights to take on the role of being the carer,
:45:43. > :45:45.unless you get equal rights for fathers, as happens more in the
:45:46. > :45:56.Scandinavian countries, nothing will change. What rights do you want?
:45:57. > :46:00.There are three key rights. When I child is born mothers are given
:46:01. > :46:06.parental rights but a father is not -- when a child is born. It is the
:46:07. > :46:10.right to make decisions about health, religion and so on. It is
:46:11. > :46:16.automatically given to all mothers. It is not given to all fathers.
:46:17. > :46:19.There are only two ways a father can automatically get it, one is by
:46:20. > :46:25.being granted it by the mother when she marries him, the other is from
:46:26. > :46:30.the state. We are treated differently because of our sex. The
:46:31. > :46:34.second thing is, all of this support the state puts in terms of child
:46:35. > :46:37.benefit and other support goes directly to the mother, not the
:46:38. > :46:43.father. That says basically, mother, you are the primary carer. The third
:46:44. > :46:45.key thing is parental leave rights. The last Labour government
:46:46. > :46:50.introduced the most unequal parental leave rights in the world. They made
:46:51. > :46:56.them mother's rights, not parents rights. When a couple sits down and
:46:57. > :47:01.makes the choice about taking on the responsibility, they are forced into
:47:02. > :47:04.certain decisions unless there is a massive income disparity. My
:47:05. > :47:08.daughter is 16, I was at home for the first three years of my life, it
:47:09. > :47:13.was easier to make that decision in 1997 than it would be now. Parental
:47:14. > :47:20.rights were a lot more equal in the 90s but they were less generous.
:47:21. > :47:25.Even if a man has fewer rights, and quite rightly we need to look at
:47:26. > :47:30.that, men can see beyond that. If both partners are working or if
:47:31. > :47:33.mother is at home as a mother, men can come home and still help out.
:47:34. > :47:50.-- and they do. It is not happening. past the fact... And they do.
:47:51. > :47:59.It is also the case that women do two thirds of the house work. That
:48:00. > :48:02.is right across the world. It is also the case that as women earn
:48:03. > :48:09.more, once they start to earn more than the man, they take on more
:48:10. > :48:13.house work. You can sort of do less as you earn more but as soon as you
:48:14. > :48:16.overtake him you end up doing more house work and more childcare than
:48:17. > :48:24.he does. It is an interesting anomaly. The other thing we need to
:48:25. > :48:29.be really aware of is that men and women have different views about
:48:30. > :48:33.what is there. Women tend to see fairness in terms of doing equal
:48:34. > :48:37.amounts. There is a certain amount of work being done. Some of it is
:48:38. > :48:42.paid work, some of it is work with the children. The women will see
:48:43. > :48:47.hours put in in equal terms as fairness. Men tend to feel they can
:48:48. > :48:51.buy themselves out of childcare by earning more. So they will come home
:48:52. > :48:55.and they won't muck in necessarily, because they feel their fair
:48:56. > :48:59.contribution comes from higher earnings. We have a lot of very
:49:00. > :49:08.complex things going on about how we think about fairness which do not
:49:09. > :49:14.match. They undervalued the mother, that she is not doing as much work.
:49:15. > :49:19.Sometimes when men do a bit of housework and praised for it, they
:49:20. > :49:31.are kind of canonised. The good men who are doing their share... Thank
:49:32. > :49:37.you! They are not exceptional, that is what they should be doing. You
:49:38. > :49:44.are worried about men becoming emasculated, what do you mean?
:49:45. > :49:46.Sometimes we think that men are pushed aside
:49:47. > :49:51.Sometimes we think that men are strong women, but in my own family I
:49:52. > :49:56.see my son doing a huge amount of childcare. And all sorts of things.
:49:57. > :50:00.If there is a nappy to be changed and he will go and do it. He never
:50:01. > :50:05.gives a second thought to it. I didn't see my husband doing quite
:50:06. > :50:10.that. I think over 20, 30, 40 years, we have moved a long way in more and
:50:11. > :50:12.more men doing things. We mustn't go so far as to push men into feeling
:50:13. > :50:20.that they are less important, less so far as to push men into feeling
:50:21. > :50:22.valuable, of less worth than women. Why would the man changing his
:50:23. > :50:26.child's nappy would Why would the man changing his
:50:27. > :50:32.less of a man or less valuable to the project of raising that child?
:50:33. > :50:37.Why is that a threat to masculinity? I think we are in danger of women
:50:38. > :50:46.being so forceful today in saying, this is what you are going to do...
:50:47. > :50:50.Where is this day? These fathers over here, they are asking to be
:50:51. > :50:55.involved, they want to be involved, it is not women pushing them into
:50:56. > :50:59.it, it is the men themselves. If I could just add, if there was shared
:51:00. > :51:04.parental leave come which we have talked about a lot, if men and women
:51:05. > :51:07.had their time at home, they could make up their own minds about
:51:08. > :51:13.whether it was for them or not. At the moment they don't have the
:51:14. > :51:17.chance. It is what works for each individual couple. In my own
:51:18. > :51:20.household, my husband is a lot better at doing the yard work and I
:51:21. > :51:28.am better at organising big birthday parties. You are so forceful!
:51:29. > :51:34.Britain could do better at drawing men into parenthood. As a
:51:35. > :51:37.grandfather and a father I have experience of trying this. There are
:51:38. > :51:42.couple of obstacles. One is that women are far safer than men in
:51:43. > :51:47.nearly all respects, safer drivers, commit less violent crime. It is
:51:48. > :51:51.reflected in caring relationships. Men who care for children are much
:51:52. > :51:57.more likely to abuse them sexually or physically. It doesn't mean all
:51:58. > :52:06.men but it is true that men are more risky. Catherine, you made a face of
:52:07. > :52:09.anguish and pain. My baby son is eight months old and when he was
:52:10. > :52:12.four months old I went back to work full-time, and my husband took
:52:13. > :52:16.additional parental leave for three months which he is just coming to
:52:17. > :52:20.the end. Less than 1% of couples in the country do that. I think partly
:52:21. > :52:25.it is about as ability, that being known about. But when he went to
:52:26. > :52:29.make the request, and he works in a government department, a large
:52:30. > :52:35.organisation, they had never heard of the request in the HR Department.
:52:36. > :52:39.Then they grated it to -- granted it to him as though they were doing him
:52:40. > :52:43.a favour. He was very much reassured by everybody that it wouldn't affect
:52:44. > :52:47.his position and he would be able to come back in and they were not
:52:48. > :52:51.looking firstly at it. -- at firstly at it.
:52:52. > :53:00.The sort of culture that I view as being from the 70s. I think my
:53:01. > :53:04.husband has a new-found appreciation for the workplace after three months
:53:05. > :53:09.at home, it is rewarding but it is hard work. My baby son, bless him,
:53:10. > :53:12.will come to me and love him but he will equally come to my husband and
:53:13. > :53:21.love him and be with him, and we are stronger as a family. You have four
:53:22. > :53:30.children including triplets? That is right. My goodness me. What a joy
:53:31. > :53:35.they are. Hard work? Yes. I want to say very clearly that being a father
:53:36. > :53:40.does not emasculate a man. It can be the making of a man, actually.
:53:41. > :53:45.APPLAUSE There isn't a man in the country who
:53:46. > :53:48.can stand up and say, I did enough, without getting attacked. Because
:53:49. > :53:53.you can never do enough and I know full well that people will be
:53:54. > :53:57.watching this programme and saying, yeah, because I didn't do enough. I
:53:58. > :54:04.was caught up in a crisis, particularly when the three came.
:54:05. > :54:09.That forced me to re-evaluate how I felt about it and how much I would
:54:10. > :54:13.get involved. When our time comes, there is no man who sits there and
:54:14. > :54:19.says, well, I am glad I didn't spend more time with my children. It is
:54:20. > :54:24.the greatest thing. If there is anything to make, it has been the
:54:25. > :54:27.making of me. They are fantastic and have taught me a great deal. It is a
:54:28. > :54:35.terrible struggle sometimes. For both of us. It is interesting, what
:54:36. > :54:45.it is to be a man isn't static. The changing role of the man has to do a
:54:46. > :54:49.lot with the women's movement and the LGB Teemu Pukki. Men are more
:54:50. > :54:55.likely to talk about their movement -- LGB tee movement.
:54:56. > :55:05.Although they are not doing enough around the house, the number of
:55:06. > :55:13.house husband has gone up to 10% to hit -- it has increased hugely.
:55:14. > :55:16.Women as a movement have change what it means to be a man and that is a
:55:17. > :55:25.good thing, it is something to be braced. My cousin and her husband
:55:26. > :55:32.had their first child last night, a baby girl born last night.
:55:33. > :55:36.Congratulations! The child was born in Norway where they have been
:55:37. > :55:42.working for the last couple of years. Mother and farmer -- father
:55:43. > :55:49.are sorting out huge periods of parental leave. I think it is a very
:55:50. > :55:51.healthy arrangement. That kind of regulation and state involvement in
:55:52. > :55:56.the laws is one thing. The other side of the argument is just being a
:55:57. > :56:03.decent person, someone who was brought up well to do your fair
:56:04. > :56:09.share, to be someone who is selfless, I don't think it requires
:56:10. > :56:14.too many carrots and sticks. I just wanted to say, I think it is a bit
:56:15. > :56:17.ludicrous to say it is a threat to masculinity, you chose to bring a
:56:18. > :56:21.child into this world, if you are not willing to get hands-on and
:56:22. > :56:27.involved as a woman does, why put yourself in that situation? I think
:56:28. > :56:31.intentions are good for many people but behaviour takes time to catch
:56:32. > :56:37.up. You may be point about the historical issue of slavery. It is
:56:38. > :56:45.incredible, how behaviour takes a long time to catch up to the good
:56:46. > :56:48.intentions that many men have. I was going to say that growing up in the
:56:49. > :56:53.house I grew up in, we had to do everything. My parents at this
:56:54. > :56:58.philosophy, when you can figure up a broom you learn to sweep, if you can
:56:59. > :57:02.hold a scouring pad you scrub a pot and you have to learn to do
:57:03. > :57:09.everything. That is how I have raised my children. Then it doesn't
:57:10. > :57:13.become such an issue. Their -- there may be government things in the way
:57:14. > :57:17.but culturally, you are prepared for it. So when it does come, it should
:57:18. > :57:22.be a better society. I think that is spot on but I want to pick up one
:57:23. > :57:25.point about the way we have framed this question. We said why are black
:57:26. > :57:31.people not involved in the judge of indolent, it is a really good way to
:57:32. > :57:34.frame it? What -- involved in the church of England. We have framed
:57:35. > :57:40.this question, what is wrong with men? The conversation around gender
:57:41. > :57:43.frames conversation by saying, men are problems and women have
:57:44. > :57:52.problems. We have to change that mentality. Fathers are doing their
:57:53. > :57:56.fair share, aren't they? You would not say, our mothers doing their
:57:57. > :57:59.fair share? Fathers bring home two thirds of the income and do about
:58:00. > :58:04.the third of their care. We don't say, are women not doing their fair
:58:05. > :58:09.share in the workplace? We need to get beyond the debate. The language
:58:10. > :58:14.we use is important, the phraseology is important.
:58:15. > :58:19.We are out of time to thank you all very much for taking part. Give
:58:20. > :58:26.yourselves a round of applause. APPLAUSE
:58:27. > :58:28.The debate will continue online and on Twitter. Next week a special on
:58:29. > :58:33.the First World War, did it change written for the better? Goodbye from
:58:34. > :58:38.The Big Questions, have a great Sunday -- did it change written for
:58:39. > :58:40.the better? -- Britain.