0:00:02 > 0:00:05Today on The Big Questions, the First World War. Did it change Britain for the better?
0:00:20 > 0:00:22APPLAUSE
0:00:23 > 0:00:26Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell. Welcome to The Big Questions.
0:00:26 > 0:00:29We're back at Goldsmiths University of London
0:00:29 > 0:00:31to debate one very big question -
0:00:31 > 0:00:34did the First World War change Britain for the better?
0:00:34 > 0:00:37Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions this morning.
0:00:37 > 0:00:41Now, to debate that question,
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0:01:08 > 0:01:13Did the First World War change Britain for the better?
0:01:13 > 0:01:17Well, 16 million dead worldwide in the carnage.
0:01:17 > 0:01:23800,000 British people died, but, Jeremy Paxman,
0:01:23 > 0:01:25what were the main ways that...?
0:01:25 > 0:01:28I mean, it changed Britain dramatically,
0:01:28 > 0:01:31but what were the positive changes, do you believe?
0:01:31 > 0:01:34Well, I think if you'd been a Victorian time-traveller
0:01:34 > 0:01:36and come back to Britain in about 1912,
0:01:36 > 0:01:39you'd have understood exactly how the country worked.
0:01:39 > 0:01:41If you come back in 1922,
0:01:41 > 0:01:44after the social changes caused by the First World War,
0:01:44 > 0:01:46you wouldn't really have recognised it.
0:01:46 > 0:01:49It was an entirely different sort of place.
0:01:49 > 0:01:53A very small proportion of adult men and women
0:01:53 > 0:01:55had the vote at the start of the war.
0:01:55 > 0:01:59By the end of the war, the franchise was hugely extended,
0:01:59 > 0:02:02including, for the first time, to some women.
0:02:02 > 0:02:07The Government had got involved in setting wage rates,
0:02:07 > 0:02:11in setting rents, it had got even involved in
0:02:11 > 0:02:15ensuring that there was a roughly equal distribution of food.
0:02:15 > 0:02:18These were all positive changes, I think.
0:02:18 > 0:02:21So nothing can justify that massive loss of life,
0:02:21 > 0:02:24but I would say Britain was a better place afterwards than before.
0:02:24 > 0:02:27Did we see the beginning of the end of deference?
0:02:27 > 0:02:30There's still a little bit of it about, perhaps,
0:02:30 > 0:02:33and the rigidity of the class system, as well?
0:02:33 > 0:02:36I think it did encourage social mobility, yes, of course.
0:02:36 > 0:02:42Yeah. Well, Chris Nineham from the No Glory In War campaign,
0:02:42 > 0:02:47as Jeremy says, the position of women in society, the class system,
0:02:47 > 0:02:52maybe the decline in the unquestioning deference as well.
0:02:52 > 0:02:55Greater power for and respect for the working classes
0:02:55 > 0:02:59and, indeed, the rise of the Labour Party.
0:02:59 > 0:03:01It was a fulcrum of change.
0:03:01 > 0:03:02It was a catalyst for change.
0:03:02 > 0:03:05- You've got to agree with that, haven't you?- I'm not so sure.
0:03:05 > 0:03:08I find it a slightly desperate and depressing argument
0:03:08 > 0:03:10that we needed this carnage in order to get...
0:03:10 > 0:03:12I didn't say that! I didn't say we needed
0:03:12 > 0:03:15the carnage, I said it was unjustifiable.
0:03:15 > 0:03:17- No...- It's unjustifiable,
0:03:17 > 0:03:19but it did have positive benefits afterwards.
0:03:19 > 0:03:22Well, but my arguments are, I suppose, first of all, that,
0:03:22 > 0:03:25actually, these things were beginning to happen anyway.
0:03:25 > 0:03:27If you look at history,
0:03:27 > 0:03:29the suffragettes were already in the streets before the war.
0:03:29 > 0:03:32There was huge labour unrest in Britain and right across Europe,
0:03:32 > 0:03:36actually, demanding greater workers' rights, better wages.
0:03:36 > 0:03:38There was the movement for...
0:03:38 > 0:03:42you know, the Home Rule movement in Ireland.
0:03:42 > 0:03:43And you could argue that
0:03:43 > 0:03:45some of these changes were actually held back.
0:03:45 > 0:03:48I mean, the suffragettes were destroyed by the First World War.
0:03:48 > 0:03:51- It put it on hold. - Yeah, it put it on hold, exactly.
0:03:51 > 0:03:54I mean... I mean I take your point, Jeremy,
0:03:54 > 0:03:57but I do think at the moment, there is around this argument
0:03:57 > 0:03:59that somehow there's something naive
0:03:59 > 0:04:02about just saying that the level of carnage,
0:04:02 > 0:04:06the levels of death, the misery,
0:04:06 > 0:04:09the hell of this war isn't in itself an argument
0:04:09 > 0:04:12for saying it just should never have happened...
0:04:12 > 0:04:14That's a different point!
0:04:14 > 0:04:17We're talking about whether Britain was a better place...
0:04:17 > 0:04:19But this isn't saying that the war wasn't wrong
0:04:19 > 0:04:22- and the war wasn't absolute hell and horrific.- No.
0:04:22 > 0:04:26And catastrophic. It's saying, "What were the effects after the war?"
0:04:26 > 0:04:30But one of the effects was to almost destroy and create...
0:04:30 > 0:04:34decimate and traumatise a whole generation of people
0:04:34 > 0:04:37in this country and right across Europe and parts of the world.
0:04:37 > 0:04:40And I think you have to say that, in itself,
0:04:40 > 0:04:43that experience has to be the one that dominates any serious
0:04:43 > 0:04:46historical discussion, and just for that reason,
0:04:46 > 0:04:49I think you have to say that Britain, Germany, France,
0:04:49 > 0:04:51the other countries involved,
0:04:51 > 0:04:54were a worse place because of the misery caused by the war.
0:04:54 > 0:04:58- Jeremy.- Well, I mean, you're confusing two things.
0:04:58 > 0:05:02The question was, "Was Britain better after the war than it was before?"
0:05:02 > 0:05:07Now, in many respects, I argue it was, as I'm sure do other people,
0:05:07 > 0:05:10but what you're arguing is a conjecture.
0:05:10 > 0:05:13You're saying all of these changes would've happened anyway.
0:05:13 > 0:05:17Well, perhaps they would at some point, but it's a conjecture.
0:05:17 > 0:05:21- We don't know.- Sir Hew Strachan. Let me bring Sir Hew in.
0:05:21 > 0:05:24- I...- Well, look, Chris, there will be opportunities.
0:05:24 > 0:05:27Sir Hew - catastrophic loss of life and, interestingly,
0:05:27 > 0:05:29of course, there's a lot of myths, I think,
0:05:29 > 0:05:31which we could be addressing
0:05:31 > 0:05:33and some people are beginning to address.
0:05:33 > 0:05:35There was a disproportionate loss of life
0:05:35 > 0:05:38from the political and social elite, as well.
0:05:38 > 0:05:39But what did it mean?
0:05:39 > 0:05:42And later on, I want to discuss the geopolitical
0:05:42 > 0:05:44implications in Britain and the world,
0:05:44 > 0:05:47but let's look at the social consequences, if we may,
0:05:47 > 0:05:50in this part of our discussion. What were they?
0:05:50 > 0:05:52Well, I think you've already heard from Jeremy
0:05:52 > 0:05:56some indication of what they were. In relation to that argument,
0:05:56 > 0:05:59I would say one of the big changes here we're talking about
0:05:59 > 0:06:01is the intervention of government
0:06:01 > 0:06:03in some of these activities.
0:06:03 > 0:06:06Before the war, conflict between employers and employees
0:06:06 > 0:06:09was essentially regulated by them without the state intervening.
0:06:09 > 0:06:14The necessity of prioritising the war means that, if you like,
0:06:14 > 0:06:17"big government", as we might now term it,
0:06:17 > 0:06:19becomes much more normal activity.
0:06:19 > 0:06:22And, of course, it has, if you like,
0:06:22 > 0:06:26progressive, positive consequences -
0:06:26 > 0:06:29taxation, for example, works much more through society,
0:06:29 > 0:06:32to the point that members of the working class
0:06:32 > 0:06:33would also pay tax for the first time,
0:06:33 > 0:06:36partly because their incomes are going up,
0:06:36 > 0:06:38especially if they're in war-related industries.
0:06:38 > 0:06:41But, obviously, the counter-factual point that these things
0:06:41 > 0:06:44might've happened without the war is sustainable.
0:06:44 > 0:06:48The question probably is the pace at which they would've happened,
0:06:48 > 0:06:52and, self-evidently, the war is not, you know,
0:06:52 > 0:06:55a satisfactory price to pay for such progress.
0:06:55 > 0:06:59Where you probably also have to position yourself is,
0:06:59 > 0:07:03"Are you judging this from the point of view, let's say, of 1920, 1921?"
0:07:03 > 0:07:07- Yeah.- "Or are you looking at it from the point of view of 1930, '31?",
0:07:07 > 0:07:10where a lot of people felt, "Golly, we did get all these benefits
0:07:10 > 0:07:13"and now we've lost them all again because of the slump"?
0:07:13 > 0:07:16And so at every point, your perspective on this change
0:07:16 > 0:07:18would change and will change,
0:07:18 > 0:07:21because that would've changed again in 1939 when, of course,
0:07:21 > 0:07:23people were facing another war,
0:07:23 > 0:07:26against their expectations and with the sense,
0:07:26 > 0:07:28"We thought we had gained and yet, of course,
0:07:28 > 0:07:29"here we are fighting another war
0:07:29 > 0:07:31"with a possibility of further social change."
0:07:31 > 0:07:33- And that, of course...- Yeah.
0:07:33 > 0:07:35At that time, the social elites are very worried,
0:07:35 > 0:07:37precisely because of the social change
0:07:37 > 0:07:39that the First World War brought about.
0:07:39 > 0:07:42There are certainly historians who used to argue -
0:07:42 > 0:07:45it's now no longer fashionable for unsurprising reasons -
0:07:45 > 0:07:48that one of the reasons for appeasement in the 1930s
0:07:48 > 0:07:51were essentially domestic reasons -
0:07:51 > 0:07:54concerns that war would generate so much social change -
0:07:54 > 0:07:57and that notion that war WILL bring social change
0:07:57 > 0:08:00is also one of the reasons, for example,
0:08:00 > 0:08:02in Russia that the Bolsheviks are ready to welcome it.
0:08:02 > 0:08:07They see, in 1914, that war is the engine of revolution.
0:08:07 > 0:08:09That relationship between war and revolution
0:08:09 > 0:08:12is something which I think we too often lose sight of.
0:08:12 > 0:08:15But for many, in 1914, it's one of the reasons why Edward Grey,
0:08:15 > 0:08:17if he ever said it,
0:08:17 > 0:08:19thought the lights were going out all over Europe.
0:08:19 > 0:08:21I mean, that is a reflection of domestic concerns
0:08:21 > 0:08:24as much as it's concerned about international relations.
0:08:24 > 0:08:27As far as our society is concerned, Professor David Stevenson,
0:08:27 > 0:08:29what did we lose?
0:08:29 > 0:08:32I was asked to talk particularly about the economic aspects,
0:08:32 > 0:08:34other people may come in on other things,
0:08:34 > 0:08:36- but if I can just take the economics. - Please do.
0:08:36 > 0:08:39First of all, three-quarters of a million, 800,000 dead.
0:08:39 > 0:08:41That's not just a human tragedy,
0:08:41 > 0:08:43it's also an enormous burden on the economy,
0:08:43 > 0:08:45a loss of tremendous amounts of skilled labour.
0:08:45 > 0:08:48Another half million permanently, seriously disabled.
0:08:48 > 0:08:50Again, take that into account.
0:08:50 > 0:08:53One looks at the absolute destruction of wealth in the country -
0:08:53 > 0:08:57the estimate is probably about 15% of our national wealth was destroyed.
0:08:57 > 0:09:00Cargo ships sunk, foreign investments lost,
0:09:00 > 0:09:02wear and tear on capital not replenished.
0:09:02 > 0:09:04So there are all these things to take into account.
0:09:04 > 0:09:07You need also to look at the financial aspects of this.
0:09:07 > 0:09:11Before the war, government debt was about 25% of gross domestic product
0:09:11 > 0:09:13in the UK, which is very low.
0:09:13 > 0:09:18By the end of the war, it's 125%, more than the total of GDP.
0:09:18 > 0:09:21That's much higher than it is now, for example,
0:09:21 > 0:09:25and that's a debt burden that has to be carried by a much smaller economy.
0:09:25 > 0:09:28That in turn means that even if the state is more active
0:09:28 > 0:09:30during the war, because it's got this debt burden,
0:09:30 > 0:09:32it's unable to act very positively
0:09:32 > 0:09:35when it comes to the emergency of the Great Depression
0:09:35 > 0:09:38because these burden of debts weigh with it through the '20s -
0:09:38 > 0:09:40not just domestic but also foreign -
0:09:40 > 0:09:42so whether you look at the financial side
0:09:42 > 0:09:45or whether you look at what economists call the real economy,
0:09:45 > 0:09:48there are tremendous consequences, and nearly all of them damaging.
0:09:48 > 0:09:50Look also at unemployment.
0:09:50 > 0:09:53The unemployment rate goes up from about 4% before 1914
0:09:53 > 0:09:55to about 8 or 9%, stays at that level,
0:09:55 > 0:09:58the so-called intractable million of unemployed -
0:09:58 > 0:10:00through the '20s and '30s.
0:10:00 > 0:10:02Now, there are some benefits, just briefly.
0:10:02 > 0:10:04Of course there are some offsetting gains.
0:10:04 > 0:10:07Technological change sped up in industries like aircraft,
0:10:07 > 0:10:09chemicals, optical glass.
0:10:09 > 0:10:11That helps to raise industrial productivity
0:10:11 > 0:10:12in the inter-war period.
0:10:12 > 0:10:15There are some other things, as has been mentioned.
0:10:15 > 0:10:17There's some redistribution of income in favour of women
0:10:17 > 0:10:19and in favour of farmers and other groups.
0:10:19 > 0:10:22Working-class living standards did rise during the war.
0:10:22 > 0:10:24Infant mortality in the East End of London fell.
0:10:24 > 0:10:27So it's not all bad. But if you look at the picture overall,
0:10:27 > 0:10:30it seems to me that most of the gains are temporary
0:10:30 > 0:10:34and the minus side on the economic side far outweighs the positive.
0:10:34 > 0:10:37Just wondering... I mean, Jeremy, we could've been a far wealthier...
0:10:37 > 0:10:39This is the counterfactual thing - if we hadn't gone to war,
0:10:39 > 0:10:41we could've been a far wealthier country.
0:10:41 > 0:10:44We would still have had our trading partners,
0:10:44 > 0:10:47we would still have had our Empire. We'll talk more about that later on.
0:10:47 > 0:10:48But did it change the way that -
0:10:48 > 0:10:51and this relates to your very first point, I think -
0:10:51 > 0:10:55did it change the way that we saw ourselves, you know, as a society?
0:10:55 > 0:10:58Change the way we saw ourselves? I don't probably think it did.
0:10:58 > 0:11:02- Maybe defeat would've changed the way we saw ourselves.- Hmm.
0:11:02 > 0:11:06It's certainly, I think, although the British Empire was larger
0:11:06 > 0:11:09at the end of the war, it was, I think, the beginning of the end.
0:11:09 > 0:11:12The end had actually begun before the war.
0:11:12 > 0:11:13We saw it as a glorious war.
0:11:13 > 0:11:17Many people saw it as a glorious war, did they not, in 1914, 1915?
0:11:17 > 0:11:22You know, let's not forget, this war was won by the Allies.
0:11:23 > 0:11:25That is somehow overlooked in all of this.
0:11:26 > 0:11:29I'm not saying it was a glorious thing,
0:11:29 > 0:11:31it was a terrible, terrible loss of life,
0:11:31 > 0:11:34but many times one hears the argument made
0:11:34 > 0:11:39that the war was somehow absolutely pointless.
0:11:39 > 0:11:40In the context of the time -
0:11:40 > 0:11:43and we have to see it in the context of the time,
0:11:43 > 0:11:45not in the context of 2014 -
0:11:45 > 0:11:48this was a war that was embarked upon and was won.
0:11:48 > 0:11:50We shouldn't forget that.
0:11:50 > 0:11:52Chris, that's the danger, isn't it?
0:11:52 > 0:11:55Looking back with the spectacles of 1914 -
0:11:55 > 0:11:57very different values then.
0:11:57 > 0:12:00And we should be making judgments accordingly, shouldn't we?
0:12:00 > 0:12:03I don't know. I think we should make judgments according to
0:12:03 > 0:12:06the things we think are right and the things we think are wrong.
0:12:06 > 0:12:10- Such as?- Well, I mean, the question is, you know, the Allies won the war
0:12:10 > 0:12:12but in the name of what?
0:12:12 > 0:12:16And it seems to me that, you know, it's hard, really, to say,
0:12:16 > 0:12:18"This was a war for liberal values."
0:12:18 > 0:12:22Britain, as Jeremy himself said, didn't have, you know, suffrage.
0:12:22 > 0:12:24I mean, women didn't have the vote,
0:12:24 > 0:12:26most men didn't have the vote in Britain.
0:12:26 > 0:12:29So a lot of people were fighting for a vote they didn't have?
0:12:29 > 0:12:32- And that's before you start to talk about the Empire.- Yeah.
0:12:32 > 0:12:35A quarter of the world's population was run from this city.
0:12:35 > 0:12:38None of them, barring the few who got the vote here,
0:12:38 > 0:12:41had any kind of say in decision-making at all,
0:12:41 > 0:12:43had any kind of rights,
0:12:43 > 0:12:46so the idea that this was a war for democracy, it seems to me,
0:12:46 > 0:12:48just doesn't wash.
0:12:48 > 0:12:51Sorry, but you've just erected it as a war for democracy.
0:12:51 > 0:12:53This wasn't the claim at the time.
0:12:53 > 0:12:55Hew, you know this better than I do.
0:12:55 > 0:12:57Well, what you find in 1914, and it's interesting,
0:12:57 > 0:13:00if you look at the declaration the King-Emperor essentially
0:13:00 > 0:13:03makes across the Empire at the time,
0:13:03 > 0:13:07it absolutely encapsulates what we would see as an ambivalence.
0:13:07 > 0:13:10I mean, he appeals to his subjects to fight in a war
0:13:10 > 0:13:13that is essentially about freedom of democracy.
0:13:13 > 0:13:15And we find that ambiguous - it is ambiguous -
0:13:15 > 0:13:17but, of course, at the time,
0:13:17 > 0:13:20given the Empire that most people were living in,
0:13:20 > 0:13:22and in terms of most people's understanding of that Empire,
0:13:22 > 0:13:25it was a contradiction to which people were accustomed.
0:13:25 > 0:13:28That is the society for which they thought they were fighting.
0:13:28 > 0:13:32And that notion, of course, that this is a war with purpose,
0:13:32 > 0:13:34is something you will find throughout the war,
0:13:34 > 0:13:36from the majority of those who take part in it.
0:13:36 > 0:13:40And, of course, in a way, they have to say that, don't they?
0:13:40 > 0:13:43Because only thus can they give meaning to what they're doing
0:13:43 > 0:13:44and particularly, of course,
0:13:44 > 0:13:47if your own relatives and loved ones are killed or wounded,
0:13:47 > 0:13:49you need to explain that loss
0:13:49 > 0:13:53in terms of achieving something substantive and worthwhile.
0:13:53 > 0:13:56But it's very hard to go from what is said,
0:13:56 > 0:13:58and privately said,
0:13:58 > 0:14:02in letters from those at the front to home, and vice versa,
0:14:02 > 0:14:04it's very hard to go from that
0:14:04 > 0:14:08to constructing a total alternative picture which says
0:14:08 > 0:14:11that people aren't convinced of the necessity of this
0:14:11 > 0:14:13and don't believe it's a war for democracy.
0:14:13 > 0:14:17You don't find that reflected in the majority of opinion at the time.
0:14:17 > 0:14:20- On the point about the Allies winning...- Tim Stanley.
0:14:20 > 0:14:23I personally think it's more a case of the war ground to a halt,
0:14:23 > 0:14:25and that's important.
0:14:25 > 0:14:28On this subject of gains and losses,
0:14:28 > 0:14:32it is true that there are some gains but, first of all,
0:14:32 > 0:14:34in the fields of women's suffrage,
0:14:34 > 0:14:36that's not something that required a war.
0:14:36 > 0:14:39New Zealand gave women the vote in 1893, so no need for a war.
0:14:39 > 0:14:41On the subject of welfare,
0:14:41 > 0:14:43the Liberal government in 1906 introduced
0:14:43 > 0:14:46the basics of pensions and social security, so no need for a war.
0:14:46 > 0:14:49Of course, there were improvements in people's lives afterwards
0:14:49 > 0:14:52but also, there was massive unemployment and poverty,
0:14:52 > 0:14:54there was a Great Depression in the 1930s
0:14:54 > 0:14:56and a General Strike in 1926.
0:14:56 > 0:14:59So the idea that society was lifted up, I just can't buy.
0:14:59 > 0:15:03- There is...- I want to speak to Bonnie and Maggie as well
0:15:03 > 0:15:06on the issue of women's suffrage
0:15:06 > 0:15:09and the situation of women pre-1914, post-1918,
0:15:09 > 0:15:12but finish your point.
0:15:12 > 0:15:15Final point is, when it comes to making cost-benefit analyses,
0:15:15 > 0:15:20I just think that's a...almost morally vacuous point to try and do.
0:15:20 > 0:15:25The ultimate point is that 800,000 people died as a result of that war.
0:15:25 > 0:15:27This was a tragedy.
0:15:27 > 0:15:31It is true that after the Black Death, people's wages went up
0:15:31 > 0:15:34because there were less farmers so they could demand higher wages.
0:15:34 > 0:15:38I think most people at the time would not conclude that that was something worth going through
0:15:38 > 0:15:41- just for the sake of higher wages. - SCATTERED APPLAUSE
0:15:41 > 0:15:45This fatuous point is the fatuous point in The Big Question.
0:15:45 > 0:15:48We're not arguing this was a war that was desirable.
0:15:48 > 0:15:50- No.- No-one would argue that in their right mind.
0:15:50 > 0:15:53No, no, but we are arguing...
0:15:53 > 0:15:55- This is the fatuous question we are being asked to address.- No.
0:15:55 > 0:15:58But the question being raised is, on balance,
0:15:58 > 0:16:00- was British society improved? - The consequences of it.
0:16:00 > 0:16:04We can sit here all day and we can raise very good qualitative
0:16:04 > 0:16:06and quantitative examples of British society improving
0:16:06 > 0:16:10or getting worse but, ultimately, people died as a result of this.
0:16:10 > 0:16:15- Yes!- And I'm not sure it was a cause worth dying for.
0:16:15 > 0:16:16But the point is we were...
0:16:16 > 0:16:20I mean, we were all in it together, weren't we?
0:16:20 > 0:16:22That was kind of... Bonnie, if I may?
0:16:22 > 0:16:26And I want to hear from Maggie as well.
0:16:26 > 0:16:27The whole situation of women -
0:16:27 > 0:16:29women were seen to be doing jobs that nobody
0:16:29 > 0:16:31would ever have considered women would be doing.
0:16:31 > 0:16:33Women were out there in the workplace,
0:16:33 > 0:16:35they were part of the war effort
0:16:35 > 0:16:37and people recognised that for the first time.
0:16:37 > 0:16:40But I think the point was made either by Tim or by Chris,
0:16:40 > 0:16:44this might have even delayed suffrage for all women
0:16:44 > 0:16:47because, of course, when the men came home they got their jobs back.
0:16:47 > 0:16:51And also, there was a worry that women would outnumber men
0:16:51 > 0:16:55in the electorate and so all women didn't get the vote
0:16:55 > 0:16:56until...I think it was 1928.
0:16:56 > 0:16:59Well, Maggie is the expert on all of this
0:16:59 > 0:17:02and can give you really very concrete examples,
0:17:02 > 0:17:04but I just want to say something.
0:17:04 > 0:17:07As a writer, someone who's not an historian,
0:17:07 > 0:17:11someone who deals with I guess you would call the esoterics,
0:17:11 > 0:17:14the fact is, is that when we encounter one another,
0:17:14 > 0:17:16everyone knows that war's a failure.
0:17:16 > 0:17:19Everyone admits it. We're all post-war generation.
0:17:19 > 0:17:22There's no way anybody can say war is a success. We can't.
0:17:22 > 0:17:25We're not brought up that way. We can't do it.
0:17:25 > 0:17:27We know the First World War
0:17:27 > 0:17:30largely because there were two or three brilliant poets
0:17:30 > 0:17:32who came out of that war
0:17:32 > 0:17:35and certainly coloured my generation's feeling about the war.
0:17:35 > 0:17:38I'm talking about people who were at university in the '70s
0:17:38 > 0:17:41and late '70s. That's how we felt about the war.
0:17:41 > 0:17:45So it's a much more complicated situation.
0:17:45 > 0:17:51And I can say that when you look at images of women from India
0:17:51 > 0:17:54who came here and marched for suffrage
0:17:54 > 0:17:56and also were in the streets,
0:17:56 > 0:18:00when you start to see other human beings who are different from you,
0:18:00 > 0:18:03it actually changes your viewpoint of the world.
0:18:03 > 0:18:06Now, the situation that they're in - war -
0:18:06 > 0:18:10it's the most horrific failure of any sort of human question,
0:18:10 > 0:18:14but we also were able... especially in America,
0:18:14 > 0:18:17it enabled people to be more mobile.
0:18:17 > 0:18:21It enabled people to see - see what they hadn't seen before,
0:18:21 > 0:18:23especially for people of colour,
0:18:23 > 0:18:26to actually see white people in human situations.
0:18:26 > 0:18:29- So it changed the ways that we saw each other?- Absolutely.
0:18:29 > 0:18:32Absolutely, and people went back home and said,
0:18:32 > 0:18:34"I saw this, I saw that, I saw that."
0:18:34 > 0:18:36So we're able now to do this or able to do that.
0:18:36 > 0:18:39Because the Harlem Brigade, famously...
0:18:39 > 0:18:42- That, and also what happened in Kenya. People went back home.- Yeah.
0:18:42 > 0:18:45And they brought those messages. And the same with women as well.
0:18:45 > 0:18:50People saw women doing things that we were not allowed to do before.
0:18:50 > 0:18:52- Yeah.- And it made a difference.
0:18:52 > 0:18:58And Maggie, though, what about the grief, the families torn apart?
0:18:58 > 0:19:02The single-parent families that were all of a sudden
0:19:02 > 0:19:04prevalent in society?
0:19:04 > 0:19:06These things are rarely written about.
0:19:06 > 0:19:08I think those are rarely written about.
0:19:08 > 0:19:11I want to mention those but I also want to challenge a little bit
0:19:11 > 0:19:14the notion that it actually improved women's lives.
0:19:14 > 0:19:17Certainly, we don't talk about, I suppose,
0:19:17 > 0:19:19the huge ripple there is around
0:19:19 > 0:19:21those who died but also around those who came back
0:19:21 > 0:19:23either emotionally or physically injured,
0:19:23 > 0:19:26and the effects that that had on their families, their wives,
0:19:26 > 0:19:28who had to do the emotional labour,
0:19:28 > 0:19:30looking after them in the years to come.
0:19:30 > 0:19:31I think that's certainly true.
0:19:31 > 0:19:34We don't talk about the trauma, in a sense,
0:19:34 > 0:19:37that many women who were mothers or who were wives
0:19:37 > 0:19:39went through during the war, both trying to cope,
0:19:39 > 0:19:43worrying about and attempting to look after their families
0:19:43 > 0:19:44- at a distance.- Hmm.
0:19:44 > 0:19:48You know, there are desperately poor women who are taking
0:19:48 > 0:19:52out of their weekly wage to send food to their husbands
0:19:52 > 0:19:54or their sons who are in the Army,
0:19:54 > 0:19:56because they don't have enough money.
0:19:56 > 0:19:58Or getting into debt to give their husbands things
0:19:58 > 0:20:01because they don't get looked after enough properly.
0:20:01 > 0:20:03There are women who are losing their homes
0:20:03 > 0:20:05because the money is not coming through properly.
0:20:05 > 0:20:08There is a really very difficult situation during that war
0:20:08 > 0:20:11and, of course, it gets much worse as you get to the food queues
0:20:11 > 0:20:13- and the food shortages. - So would you struggle with this,
0:20:13 > 0:20:15"Did World War I change Britain for the better?"
0:20:15 > 0:20:17I would very much struggle with it.
0:20:17 > 0:20:20I would also struggle because we tend to focus on the working women,
0:20:20 > 0:20:23and the vast majority of women were not working.
0:20:23 > 0:20:24They were domestic housewives.
0:20:24 > 0:20:27They were still stuck at home with all the same problems.
0:20:27 > 0:20:30The number of women who worked, and worked married,
0:20:30 > 0:20:33was the same before the war as it was a couple of years after the war.
0:20:33 > 0:20:36OK, there was a reduction in the number of domestic servants
0:20:36 > 0:20:38but it was small. Domestic service was still
0:20:38 > 0:20:41the majority employer of women during the war.
0:20:41 > 0:20:45I think we tend to think that women never went into heavy industry
0:20:45 > 0:20:48prior to the First World War. This is not true.
0:20:48 > 0:20:50There are women working in Cradley Heath in chain-making
0:20:50 > 0:20:53and what have you for years before the war.
0:20:53 > 0:20:55So I think, yes, you saw the visibility...
0:20:55 > 0:20:58- Yes.- ..of women working, and that is quite interesting -
0:20:58 > 0:21:01they were photographed and they were part of the propaganda -
0:21:01 > 0:21:03but the idea that women hadn't worked before
0:21:03 > 0:21:06or hadn't worked in heavy, difficult jobs before
0:21:06 > 0:21:08and did afterwards, this is wrong.
0:21:08 > 0:21:10So are we still falling prey, if you like,
0:21:10 > 0:21:12to some of the propaganda that was around 100 years ago?
0:21:12 > 0:21:15It is very easy to fall into a process of looking
0:21:15 > 0:21:18- at how they want people to behave... - We give it our own narrative.
0:21:18 > 0:21:20- ..to imagine that's how people did behave.- Yeah.
0:21:20 > 0:21:22Or that this is the experience of some women
0:21:22 > 0:21:26and we imagine it's the experience of all the women, and it wasn't.
0:21:26 > 0:21:29It's a small number of women for whom those changes occurred.
0:21:29 > 0:21:31Now, I'm not denying that for individual women
0:21:31 > 0:21:33it may have been an amazingly liberating experience.
0:21:33 > 0:21:35That's absolutely true. There are some groups.
0:21:35 > 0:21:38I'm not denying that there weren't groups that came out of it,
0:21:38 > 0:21:41like the Women's Institute movement, which were great
0:21:41 > 0:21:43and changed rural women's lives for years.
0:21:43 > 0:21:46But overall, I would really want to challenge this notion that
0:21:46 > 0:21:49it made a significant difference to the lives of women.
0:21:49 > 0:21:51And I would also want to challenge that idea
0:21:51 > 0:21:53that we got the vote because of the war.
0:21:53 > 0:21:55That one makes me very uncomfortable.
0:21:55 > 0:21:57There were 50 years of campaigning.
0:21:57 > 0:22:02Certainly, women, there was a sense, by the time you reach 1912 or so,
0:22:02 > 0:22:06that women should have the vote and it got caught in party politics.
0:22:06 > 0:22:08Got caught in the Conservatives not wanting to give it
0:22:08 > 0:22:11or wanting to give it just to some wealthy people,
0:22:11 > 0:22:13the Liberals opposing that. It was caught up in that.
0:22:13 > 0:22:16When women got the vote, the women who didn't get the vote,
0:22:16 > 0:22:20because the property qualifications and the age restriction, were,
0:22:20 > 0:22:21in fact, those idealised women -
0:22:21 > 0:22:24the women who'd been in the munitions,
0:22:24 > 0:22:25the women who'd been in the Land Army.
0:22:25 > 0:22:27They did not get rewarded by getting the vote.
0:22:27 > 0:22:29They had to wait till 1928 for it.
0:22:29 > 0:22:32What on earth...? I mean, it's hard to imagine, isn't it?
0:22:32 > 0:22:36800,000 people not there any more. 800,000 men not there any more.
0:22:36 > 0:22:40And what was that like for, Jeremy, for society?
0:22:40 > 0:22:43Well, it was obviously a huge, huge loss.
0:22:43 > 0:22:48Fathers who weren't there, brothers, sisters, sons who were not there.
0:22:48 > 0:22:50Of course, it had a huge impact.
0:22:50 > 0:22:53I think the figure is - you would know this, Hew -
0:22:53 > 0:22:56there was 16,000 villages in England and Wales
0:22:56 > 0:22:58at the end of the First World War.
0:22:58 > 0:23:02There were 40 to which all the men who had gone to war returned.
0:23:02 > 0:23:04This is a huge loss of life and, you know,
0:23:04 > 0:23:07an empty place at every dinner table in the...
0:23:07 > 0:23:08Well, not every dinner table...
0:23:08 > 0:23:12Every family knew or knew of someone who had not come back.
0:23:12 > 0:23:15- So it had a huge impact.- There's contemporary...- Sorry, Frank?
0:23:15 > 0:23:17There's contemporary resonance to this as well.
0:23:17 > 0:23:20Over the last ten years, we've lost about 620 people in Iraq
0:23:20 > 0:23:22and Afghanistan.
0:23:22 > 0:23:26That was a good average day's reaping on the Western Front.
0:23:26 > 0:23:29- Yeah, yeah. - And throughout the world.- Yeah.
0:23:29 > 0:23:33So if anybody watching knows anybody who's been killed
0:23:33 > 0:23:35in the last decade of conflict,
0:23:35 > 0:23:38you can multiply that by about a thousand.
0:23:38 > 0:23:43The loss is literally inconceivable for us today.
0:23:43 > 0:23:45- It is, yeah.- But it's also, of course, in contrast...
0:23:45 > 0:23:47I mean, to pick up Frank's point,
0:23:47 > 0:23:51we're living in a society where, actually, for good or ill,
0:23:51 > 0:23:54most of us are totally unaffected by the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
0:23:54 > 0:23:58This was a war which, of course, involved national mobilisation,
0:23:58 > 0:24:01so everyone felt themselves to be part of it willy-nilly.
0:24:01 > 0:24:04- Total war.- Well, yes, and that's what they call it by the end.
0:24:04 > 0:24:07It's not how they understood it to begin with.
0:24:07 > 0:24:08So they were all swept up in it.
0:24:08 > 0:24:11And, of course, when you think about, you know,
0:24:11 > 0:24:14what the consequences to this are, part of our problem,
0:24:14 > 0:24:16I think, here is that we're discussing
0:24:16 > 0:24:19what is the effect of any war in terms of adverse effects,
0:24:19 > 0:24:22and what is the effect particularly of this war?
0:24:22 > 0:24:25And, very often, I think we're in danger of using this war
0:24:25 > 0:24:27as a vehicle for every other war.
0:24:27 > 0:24:30We don't have a comparable debate, interestingly enough,
0:24:30 > 0:24:33about the Second World War, which we construct as a good war,
0:24:33 > 0:24:35and as we construct it as a good war,
0:24:35 > 0:24:38we sort of exempt it from all the same sort of criticisms
0:24:38 > 0:24:40which we're now exposing the First World War to.
0:24:40 > 0:24:43It's acceleration of the technological change within that war.
0:24:43 > 0:24:46The loss of life for Britain is much less in the Second World War
0:24:46 > 0:24:49but, of course, the destruction across the world is far greater.
0:24:49 > 0:24:51And the length of the war is far greater.
0:24:51 > 0:24:55So, you know, we do load this war up with a great deal
0:24:55 > 0:24:58and, essentially, what we do load onto the war
0:24:58 > 0:25:03and what we don't load onto the war because there's, you know...
0:25:03 > 0:25:05The flu epidemic, you know, at the end of the war
0:25:05 > 0:25:08kills more people than the war does itself.
0:25:08 > 0:25:11So you're just as likely to have empty places at the dinner table
0:25:11 > 0:25:14because somebody's been swept away by disease
0:25:14 > 0:25:16rather than swept away by battle.
0:25:16 > 0:25:19And that doesn't condone the loss by battle at all but, you know,
0:25:19 > 0:25:21where does this loss come from?
0:25:21 > 0:25:25And remember, also, when you aggregate the entire losses
0:25:25 > 0:25:27for the war, for all the British Armed Forces,
0:25:27 > 0:25:29it's just under 12% who die.
0:25:29 > 0:25:32Now, that doesn't mean that those who come back
0:25:32 > 0:25:36are all whole in body and mind, absolutely it doesn't mean,
0:25:36 > 0:25:38and it doesn't mean that within certain cohorts,
0:25:38 > 0:25:42you don't have massive loss of life much, much greater than that.
0:25:42 > 0:25:44But still, you know,
0:25:44 > 0:25:47it does mean that many families actually don't experience any loss.
0:25:47 > 0:25:49You know, so this, again,
0:25:49 > 0:25:52is not for a moment to say that this isn't tragic
0:25:52 > 0:25:54in terms of what happens to some families,
0:25:54 > 0:25:57and it doesn't mean to say that people go around saying,
0:25:57 > 0:26:00"I don't know anybody who's been killed in the war."
0:26:00 > 0:26:02Self-evidently, that is not true.
0:26:02 > 0:26:05But there is a way in which, because the aggregate figure
0:26:05 > 0:26:09- is so massive, that we remove any sense of scale from it...- Yes.
0:26:09 > 0:26:12- ..that we fail to put it in proportion.- Yeah.
0:26:12 > 0:26:15And Saul David, we kind of give it the narrative we want to give it
0:26:15 > 0:26:22as well, and that is informed by our ideological position now, isn't it?
0:26:22 > 0:26:23Our political position now.
0:26:23 > 0:26:26Yeah, it's a war that appears from the outside,
0:26:26 > 0:26:29certainly to the popular view in Britain today,
0:26:29 > 0:26:31a war that wasn't worth fighting.
0:26:31 > 0:26:33But that's really the key question here because, of course,
0:26:33 > 0:26:35800,000 died,
0:26:35 > 0:26:37and it's appalling and we had to live with the consequences
0:26:37 > 0:26:40of all those who came back broken in spirit and body.
0:26:40 > 0:26:42But the question is, was it worth fighting?
0:26:42 > 0:26:45Because that is the real key here. If we hadn't fought the war
0:26:45 > 0:26:48and we hadn't lost those 800,000 people,
0:26:48 > 0:26:50what would've been the consequences for Britain?
0:26:50 > 0:26:52This is a pretty significant point.
0:26:52 > 0:26:55Let's talk about Britain and the world in a second or two.
0:26:55 > 0:26:58No, it's fundamental to whether or not we fought the war
0:26:58 > 0:27:00in the first place. What were they hoping to achieve?
0:27:00 > 0:27:03What wouldn't have happened, rather than what actually did happen,
0:27:03 > 0:27:05and for what it was for.
0:27:05 > 0:27:07OK, let's go with the flow. Talk about it now.
0:27:07 > 0:27:08LAUGHTER
0:27:08 > 0:27:10On the subject of comparing the two wars,
0:27:10 > 0:27:13I find it interesting that whenever in a public debate about war
0:27:13 > 0:27:15we want to say, "Don't go to war,"
0:27:15 > 0:27:17we say that something's a Sarajevo moment.
0:27:17 > 0:27:19Whenever we say we should be going to war,
0:27:19 > 0:27:21we say it's a Munich moment if we don't.
0:27:21 > 0:27:24And I think that that sort of speaks to how World War I
0:27:24 > 0:27:26has become this big metaphor for war as a mistake,
0:27:26 > 0:27:29whereas World War II is a metaphor for war as an idealistic project.
0:27:29 > 0:27:32But if there is one good thing that comes out of it,
0:27:32 > 0:27:35just to wrap up that last bit of debate, for me it has to be this.
0:27:35 > 0:27:37It's that in the first two years of the war,
0:27:37 > 0:27:40Britain survived on voluntary... people volunteering to fight.
0:27:40 > 0:27:43I don't think that would necessarily happen any more.
0:27:43 > 0:27:45I think as a result of World War I,
0:27:45 > 0:27:49we've become a far more self-critical society than we were back then.
0:27:49 > 0:27:51Some people see that as a loss of patriotism.
0:27:51 > 0:27:54I don't. I think one good thing about the last two wars
0:27:54 > 0:27:56is they developed us as citizens and as people
0:27:56 > 0:27:59who are critical of our governments and of the decisions they made.
0:27:59 > 0:28:01So that's one good thing that comes out of the Great War.
0:28:01 > 0:28:04And does that tie in with the decline in deference?
0:28:04 > 0:28:06It does, which is a good thing in a democracy.
0:28:06 > 0:28:09A democracy in which you defer to the decisions made by leaders
0:28:09 > 0:28:12is no democracy at all. We should always be critical,
0:28:12 > 0:28:14especially when it comes to leaders
0:28:14 > 0:28:17- deciding to send us to die on their behalf.- Mike, I'm aware I haven't brought you in,
0:28:17 > 0:28:20but just before we move onto the geopolitical and Britain's place in the world,
0:28:20 > 0:28:22and Empire, and German expansionism,
0:28:22 > 0:28:25I think you mention in your television series, Jeremy,
0:28:25 > 0:28:29about this was the first war, you know, it was a revolution in media.
0:28:29 > 0:28:31It was the first war that people actually saw images
0:28:31 > 0:28:33up there on the big screen.
0:28:33 > 0:28:35Not very much. I mean, there was some...
0:28:35 > 0:28:39There was a feature film made about the Battle of the Somme,
0:28:39 > 0:28:45for example. An amazing piece of logistical work, really.
0:28:45 > 0:28:48It was actually screened in cinemas within
0:28:48 > 0:28:51a matter of weeks of the offensive taking place.
0:28:51 > 0:28:54But it was a pretty sanitised coverage.
0:28:54 > 0:28:57There wasn't anything that we would recognise, I think,
0:28:57 > 0:29:00as free and fair reporting.
0:29:00 > 0:29:05There were very few photographs of British troops suffering.
0:29:05 > 0:29:08You might say much the same now, of course.
0:29:09 > 0:29:14The reporters were not just embedded but they were heavily censored.
0:29:14 > 0:29:17So I slightly gainsay that.
0:29:17 > 0:29:20I think it... It was impinging on everybody's life
0:29:20 > 0:29:23but not through the mass media.
0:29:23 > 0:29:26I think the big difference now is that we're accustomed
0:29:26 > 0:29:30to seeing war in high definition, in colour,
0:29:30 > 0:29:33and in our own sitting rooms.
0:29:33 > 0:29:38And it was black and white, it was sanitised to some degree,
0:29:38 > 0:29:40and it was static.
0:29:40 > 0:29:43I think that was a big difference in the way it was seen.
0:29:43 > 0:29:45Mike Snape.
0:29:45 > 0:29:48I think you believe that this war was fought for Christian values
0:29:48 > 0:29:52and the reasons for fighting it came from Christian values.
0:29:52 > 0:29:53Explain more, please.
0:29:53 > 0:29:58I think one of the big factors that differentiates our society
0:29:58 > 0:30:01from British society 100 years ago
0:30:01 > 0:30:04was the fact that British society in 1914
0:30:04 > 0:30:08was self-consciously and often very articulately Christian.
0:30:08 > 0:30:11And the idea of purposeless suffering that's been widely aired
0:30:11 > 0:30:14in this discussion was something which that generation
0:30:14 > 0:30:16- wouldn't quite have recognised. - That's right.
0:30:16 > 0:30:19For a society that was overwhelmingly Christian -
0:30:19 > 0:30:22and not necessarily church-going, but Christian -
0:30:22 > 0:30:24and which had an understanding
0:30:24 > 0:30:27of the role of Jesus's death on Calvary
0:30:27 > 0:30:30and the redemptive purposes of that death,
0:30:30 > 0:30:33the idea that you could suffer and die for something
0:30:33 > 0:30:35that was bigger than yourself,
0:30:35 > 0:30:38for something that could actually improve the world,
0:30:38 > 0:30:42was strongly ingrained in British society.
0:30:42 > 0:30:45And that conviction was not lost by the war.
0:30:45 > 0:30:48If you were to go round the Commonwealth War Graves
0:30:48 > 0:30:51in France, in Belgium, Gallipoli, etc,
0:30:51 > 0:30:56the number of inscriptions chosen by families for their loved ones
0:30:56 > 0:31:01which invoke hymnody, which invoke texts from Scripture,
0:31:01 > 0:31:03is overwhelming.
0:31:03 > 0:31:07You very, very, very seldom encounter a headstone
0:31:07 > 0:31:11which has neither a Cross or a Star of David.
0:31:11 > 0:31:15The thing is, one of the things that we have lost in British society -
0:31:15 > 0:31:18and this isn't a value judgment, I think it's a statement of fact -
0:31:18 > 0:31:22is a sense of the importance of religion
0:31:22 > 0:31:24and a knowledge of religious values,
0:31:24 > 0:31:27a kind of basic theology that permeates British society,
0:31:27 > 0:31:30which makes sense of these losses 100 years ago.
0:31:30 > 0:31:33We've lost that, we're a more secular society now, etc,
0:31:33 > 0:31:36and what that means is our ability to comprehend
0:31:36 > 0:31:39how that generation saw the war...
0:31:39 > 0:31:41There must be so many people questioning
0:31:41 > 0:31:43that massive loss of life,
0:31:43 > 0:31:46so many people must have asked that age-old question,
0:31:46 > 0:31:48"Why? How can God do this?"
0:31:48 > 0:31:50Well, the answer to that is quite straightforward.
0:31:50 > 0:31:53- God isn't doing this.- Ah. - Human beings are doing this.
0:31:53 > 0:31:55It's something we debate on a number of occasions
0:31:55 > 0:31:59- and the answer isn't straightforward.- We can work round questions of theodicy
0:31:59 > 0:32:00until, you know, we're blue in the face.
0:32:00 > 0:32:02And we have done every Sunday.
0:32:02 > 0:32:05But the question is, Britain went to war...
0:32:05 > 0:32:07or the issue is Britain went to war...
0:32:07 > 0:32:10- Helping Belgium, was that seen...? - This is fundamental.
0:32:10 > 0:32:12I mean, if you think of, for example,
0:32:12 > 0:32:15the parable of the Good Samaritan in Christianity
0:32:15 > 0:32:19and how deeply entrenched that is in a Christian mind-set,
0:32:19 > 0:32:22the idea that this smaller country
0:32:22 > 0:32:25had been gratuitously invaded by this larger neighbour,
0:32:25 > 0:32:27not simply invaded, but the invasion
0:32:27 > 0:32:30was accompanied by wide-scale atrocities,
0:32:30 > 0:32:34large-scale atrocities, committed not only against Belgian men
0:32:34 > 0:32:37but against women and children and also against Belgian churches.
0:32:37 > 0:32:40- This is very important. - But there were Christian pacifists
0:32:40 > 0:32:42- who disagreed with that interpretation.- A very small number.
0:32:42 > 0:32:45I know you don't want to make a value judgment
0:32:45 > 0:32:46and I agree, but in the case of war,
0:32:46 > 0:32:49governments don't just ask people to die on behalf of their country.
0:32:49 > 0:32:52- They ask them to kill on behalf of it too.- They do.
0:32:52 > 0:32:55But if you look at the rhetoric of chaplains at the time
0:32:55 > 0:32:57and if you look at what churchmen are saying,
0:32:57 > 0:33:01the onus is on the willingness to sacrifice oneself.
0:33:01 > 0:33:04- Yes, but...- One sec, one sec. Jeremy.
0:33:04 > 0:33:07The Bishop of London was saying you were doing God's duty.
0:33:07 > 0:33:10This is a nonsense. That is a parable.
0:33:10 > 0:33:13- That is a myth, in actual fact. - I can point you to the text.
0:33:13 > 0:33:14I can point you to the scholarship
0:33:14 > 0:33:19- which demonstrates conclusively that...- Is there a German here? I would be really interested...
0:33:19 > 0:33:20THEY TALK OVER EACH OTHER
0:33:20 > 0:33:23One at a time, please. Just before you come in, Jeremy,
0:33:23 > 0:33:25surely, it's a thought that occurs,
0:33:25 > 0:33:28if a mother has lost two sons on the front
0:33:28 > 0:33:30and she goes to the local vicar in...
0:33:30 > 0:33:34I was in Wadhurst recently talking about this with the current vicar,
0:33:34 > 0:33:37about how would - massive death toll in Wadhurst -
0:33:37 > 0:33:40how would you have explained that to your congregation now?
0:33:40 > 0:33:42He said, "I would have explained it as they explained it -
0:33:42 > 0:33:44"it was for the greater glory."
0:33:44 > 0:33:46Because the vicar's not going to turn around and say,
0:33:46 > 0:33:48"Your sons are dead. What a total waste."
0:33:48 > 0:33:52- No. I think what you're doing is you're...- Can I just...?- OK.
0:33:52 > 0:33:55The churches in every country, in all the combating countries,
0:33:55 > 0:33:57were urging their populations to go to war.
0:33:57 > 0:34:00Now, they can't all have been in direct contact with God, I'm sorry.
0:34:00 > 0:34:03But also, on the question of Belgium, you see, it's interesting
0:34:03 > 0:34:06if you look at the rhetoric that justified the Germans going to war -
0:34:06 > 0:34:09it was Russian absolutism. The Russians were saying,
0:34:09 > 0:34:12"We're going to war against the German yoke."
0:34:12 > 0:34:14In every case, it was a war for democracy.
0:34:14 > 0:34:17Each side said that they were fighting for democracy
0:34:17 > 0:34:20and that was absolutely not the case. It was propaganda.
0:34:20 > 0:34:24Going to the aid of a small, helpless neighbour, Belgium.
0:34:24 > 0:34:26Do you buy it?
0:34:26 > 0:34:27No, I don't.
0:34:27 > 0:34:30And there is a famous parable from the trenches,
0:34:30 > 0:34:35which may or may not be true, where one Tommy falls into a shell hole
0:34:35 > 0:34:38and is faced with a German soldier
0:34:38 > 0:34:41and the German soldier asks the Tommy, "What are you doing here?"
0:34:41 > 0:34:44"Well, I'm here doing God's work."
0:34:44 > 0:34:46And the Tommy says "Look, I see you've got a belt buckle,"
0:34:46 > 0:34:50and every German soldier had on his belt buckle "Gott mit uns" -
0:34:50 > 0:34:52"God with us". "What does that mean?" says the Tommy.
0:34:52 > 0:34:55"It means 'God with us'," says Fritz.
0:34:55 > 0:34:58"Ah, I thought God was with us," said the Tommy.
0:34:58 > 0:35:01Now, the problem with your analysis is,
0:35:01 > 0:35:03as has already been said by Chris,
0:35:03 > 0:35:06this applied to every combatant nation.
0:35:06 > 0:35:09Every solider in the trenches that was a believer felt he was doing God's work.
0:35:09 > 0:35:12The problem with your analysis is you're ignoring the fact
0:35:12 > 0:35:16- that there were two established churches...- Not in Germany.
0:35:16 > 0:35:19..established on the eve of the war. But just a second.
0:35:19 > 0:35:21- There are two established churches...- Make it quick.
0:35:21 > 0:35:24..in 1914, the Church of Scotland and the Church of England.
0:35:24 > 0:35:26They remain established to this day.
0:35:26 > 0:35:28Basically, they were not discredited by the First World War.
0:35:28 > 0:35:31What the churches represented in terms of the message
0:35:31 > 0:35:33primarily couched in the need for sacrifice
0:35:33 > 0:35:36was not rejected by the British population.
0:35:36 > 0:35:38They were able to fill the churches
0:35:38 > 0:35:40on Armistice Day services thereafter.
0:35:40 > 0:35:42But church attendance declined during the war.
0:35:42 > 0:35:46There is a real problem because the churches expect church attendance to go up,
0:35:46 > 0:35:48which it does at the very beginning,
0:35:48 > 0:35:51but then it declines and there is a real worry in the churches
0:35:51 > 0:35:54that the war IS doing damage to faith as they would see it.
0:35:54 > 0:35:56- And what I think is striking too... - Well, why was that?
0:35:56 > 0:35:58Well, there are people being disillusioned
0:35:58 > 0:36:01and, of course, people... I mean, Michael's right -
0:36:01 > 0:36:04people see spirituality in what they're doing.
0:36:04 > 0:36:06But what I find striking is when people write last letters,
0:36:06 > 0:36:09what they tend to refer to is the nation and, actually,
0:36:09 > 0:36:11very often what is being constructed out of this,
0:36:11 > 0:36:13out of the language,
0:36:13 > 0:36:15out of religious language, absolutely,
0:36:15 > 0:36:17out of the language of faith,
0:36:17 > 0:36:20is an elision between faith and national cause.
0:36:20 > 0:36:23And that becomes very much obscured.
0:36:23 > 0:36:25If you look at French letters, particularly,
0:36:25 > 0:36:28fighting on their own soil for their own country
0:36:28 > 0:36:30in a war of national self-defence,
0:36:30 > 0:36:33an utterly justified war in their terms,
0:36:33 > 0:36:35a country that's been invaded,
0:36:35 > 0:36:37they always come back to the nation.
0:36:37 > 0:36:39Now, of course there's a problem there
0:36:39 > 0:36:41because the Catholic Church is not a national church
0:36:41 > 0:36:44in the way in which Michael is talking about
0:36:44 > 0:36:46but there are real ambiguities here.
0:36:46 > 0:36:50And the language, of course, of faith and of Christianity
0:36:50 > 0:36:53transposes very quickly and very easily into other causes.
0:36:53 > 0:36:56I want to talk... I want to talk about if I may...
0:36:56 > 0:36:58Sorry, Tim. In the time available to us.
0:36:58 > 0:37:00Russia had a Bolshevik revolution
0:37:00 > 0:37:04so the idea that spirituality is not challenged as a result of the war
0:37:04 > 0:37:08- is nonsense because... - I didn't say that.- OK, fair point. Please, please, please, please.
0:37:08 > 0:37:11I want to talk about German expansionism and the decline of Empire.
0:37:11 > 0:37:13Saul David, if this war had not been fought,
0:37:13 > 0:37:15what would Europe have looked like?
0:37:15 > 0:37:17It would've been dominated by Germany,
0:37:17 > 0:37:19the central powers, but Germany in particular.
0:37:19 > 0:37:21It would probably have, sooner or later,
0:37:21 > 0:37:24led to the dismantlement of the British Empire.
0:37:24 > 0:37:28Our position in the world would've looked an awful lot worse,
0:37:28 > 0:37:31probably by the mid '20s, certainly by the 1930s.
0:37:31 > 0:37:36We had to sacrifice 800,000 men to stave this off
0:37:36 > 0:37:41but it's arguable that that price was a price worth paying.
0:37:41 > 0:37:43But what kind of Germany would it have been?
0:37:43 > 0:37:45Would it not have been a Germany
0:37:45 > 0:37:48run by the Windsors as they then were - their cousins -
0:37:48 > 0:37:52rather than a Germany run by Corporal Hitler?
0:37:52 > 0:37:54No, it's a Germany that is...
0:37:54 > 0:37:58We've got to assume the Hohenzollerns would've kept in power.
0:37:58 > 0:38:01This was a militaristic, autocratic state
0:38:01 > 0:38:04that bears no relation to the Germany of today.
0:38:04 > 0:38:07It is a nation that had plans for Europe,
0:38:07 > 0:38:10which it sets out very clearly in September 1914 and, of course,
0:38:10 > 0:38:12we can see what it's planning to do,
0:38:12 > 0:38:17it actually does in the east in 1918 with the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk.
0:38:17 > 0:38:21It is a regime bent on dominating Europe and that domination...
0:38:21 > 0:38:24- Well, we sorted that out, didn't we? - Yes, we sorted that out.
0:38:24 > 0:38:26We sorted it out temporarily
0:38:26 > 0:38:30- and it had to be fought again in 1939 to '45.- Chris.
0:38:30 > 0:38:33Yeah, there's an attempt to stop German domination of Europe.
0:38:33 > 0:38:35It wasn't a great success, it has to be said.
0:38:35 > 0:38:38But, I mean, I think one of the other great tragedies
0:38:38 > 0:38:41of the First World War is that, actually,
0:38:41 > 0:38:43it led to an extension of Empire.
0:38:43 > 0:38:45What you saw at the end of the war
0:38:45 > 0:38:47was actually the carve-up of further areas.
0:38:47 > 0:38:49You saw the Middle East,
0:38:49 > 0:38:52you saw the Ottoman Empire being re-partitioned between the victors.
0:38:52 > 0:38:56You saw the German Empire being re-partitioned between the French...
0:38:56 > 0:39:00That's a consequence of the war. It was not why the war was fought.
0:39:00 > 0:39:03Well, I mean, this was a reality that was very much
0:39:03 > 0:39:07on the minds of the leaders of the war and, actually,
0:39:07 > 0:39:09look at the Balfour Declaration...
0:39:09 > 0:39:11The war was fought in defence of Empire, not to augment it.
0:39:11 > 0:39:14But one of the side effects of that defence of Empire,
0:39:14 > 0:39:16which, in itself, that doesn't seem to me
0:39:16 > 0:39:18a particularly virtuous reason in itself.
0:39:18 > 0:39:21Britain was the Empire. The two were indistinguishable.
0:39:21 > 0:39:22Well, they are. Exactly.
0:39:22 > 0:39:25And what happened was that Britain and France
0:39:25 > 0:39:28extended their Empire because of their victory in the war,
0:39:28 > 0:39:32as well as imposing on Germany a victor's peace that
0:39:32 > 0:39:36actually led to, arguably, a deep recession
0:39:36 > 0:39:40- and the rise of...- Not inevitably! - Professor David Stevenson.
0:39:40 > 0:39:44There's a fundamental point here which has come out
0:39:44 > 0:39:46from a lot of comments that have been made so far.
0:39:46 > 0:39:48I think the key thing to understand is,
0:39:48 > 0:39:51despite the enormous cost of this war,
0:39:51 > 0:39:53human terms and economic terms, it was a British victory
0:39:53 > 0:39:55or, I should say, an Allied victory.
0:39:55 > 0:39:58The British made only one contribution to it.
0:39:58 > 0:40:00The Americans and French were also absolutely crucial.
0:40:00 > 0:40:03But as at the end of the war, the Allies were in a position
0:40:03 > 0:40:05to dictate terms to Germany.
0:40:05 > 0:40:08From the German perspective, it was unquestionably a defeat
0:40:08 > 0:40:10and that's partly why the reaction that took place
0:40:10 > 0:40:12in the Weimar Republic took the form that it did.
0:40:12 > 0:40:14The Germans knew they'd been defeated.
0:40:14 > 0:40:17They knew the difference between victory and defeat.
0:40:17 > 0:40:20And whatever you may say about the Treaty of Versailles in 1919,
0:40:20 > 0:40:21there is enough in it,
0:40:21 > 0:40:24it's strong enough to keep Germany disarmed
0:40:24 > 0:40:27and to make it impossible for the Germans to start a Second World War
0:40:27 > 0:40:29if the treaty is enforced.
0:40:29 > 0:40:32The key point in the early 1930s is that the treaty was not enforced,
0:40:32 > 0:40:35particularly over the disarmament clauses.
0:40:35 > 0:40:37When Hitler came to power in 1933,
0:40:37 > 0:40:40he knew that he was in no position to stage a new war.
0:40:40 > 0:40:43By 1939, he was in a position. And that's fundamental.
0:40:43 > 0:40:46At the time, in the '20s and in the early '30s,
0:40:46 > 0:40:49it did not seem to people that the war had been futile,
0:40:49 > 0:40:52in spite of the enormous costs that had gone into it.
0:40:52 > 0:40:55The real problem is of mistakes made later on,
0:40:55 > 0:40:58that made it necessary and essential, unfortunately,
0:40:58 > 0:41:02for us to have to do the whole thing again between 1939 and 1945.
0:41:02 > 0:41:04Jeremy, you address all that in your book,
0:41:04 > 0:41:08- the mistakes that were made and... - Yeah. I think, personally, I think
0:41:08 > 0:41:11in victory magnanimity is what's required,
0:41:11 > 0:41:14and there was insufficient magnanimity...
0:41:14 > 0:41:16virtually no magnanimity, I think, displayed.
0:41:16 > 0:41:18My personal conviction,
0:41:18 > 0:41:21and I don't want to be on the side that actually thinks
0:41:21 > 0:41:25it was a disaster because the British Empire was dismantled.
0:41:25 > 0:41:28Many of us believe it was great to dismantle the British Empire.
0:41:28 > 0:41:31- It just came a little bit later than that for most of us.- Hear! Hear!
0:41:31 > 0:41:33But the great thing, I think,
0:41:33 > 0:41:36would've been to have followed more precisely
0:41:36 > 0:41:39the ideas that Woodrow Wilson had,
0:41:39 > 0:41:42which strike me as being much more humane
0:41:42 > 0:41:45than those which were eventually imposed upon Germany.
0:41:45 > 0:41:47But that doesn't discredit the whole war!
0:41:47 > 0:41:51No, I mean, can I just say, I'm one of the writers who's asked
0:41:51 > 0:41:54to write a letter to an unknown soldier.
0:41:54 > 0:41:59It's an imaginary letter held by the statue at Paddington Station.
0:41:59 > 0:42:01He's standing there, reading.
0:42:01 > 0:42:04We only have 500 words to put in there, each of us.
0:42:04 > 0:42:07And I had to imagine what this guy would be reading
0:42:07 > 0:42:10and I think what we're leaving out here
0:42:10 > 0:42:13is the human capacity for transcendence.
0:42:13 > 0:42:16People... If you had to go into a war,
0:42:16 > 0:42:20you had to fight, you fought, but you made something out of it.
0:42:20 > 0:42:23People, if you look at letters,
0:42:23 > 0:42:26if you look at the way people lived on the ground, day to day,
0:42:26 > 0:42:29they made some way to transcend it.
0:42:29 > 0:42:31And in the transcendence, you change.
0:42:31 > 0:42:34You make changes in a country.
0:42:34 > 0:42:37And we can't overlook transcendence.
0:42:37 > 0:42:39It is what people did.
0:42:39 > 0:42:41It is what people do in war.
0:42:41 > 0:42:44It is what people did in America when African-Americans...
0:42:44 > 0:42:47- It's what people did it in Germany. - Absolutely.
0:42:47 > 0:42:50When they were brought here, coming from a country
0:42:50 > 0:42:53where my ancestors couldn't vote, they couldn't carry a gun.
0:42:53 > 0:42:56They came here, they were able, through war -
0:42:56 > 0:42:59and I'm not condoning war because war's always a failure,
0:42:59 > 0:43:02always a failure, as far as I'm concerned -
0:43:02 > 0:43:06but through war, through the process of not war but interaction,
0:43:06 > 0:43:10they were able to transcend the reality they'd been stuck in,
0:43:10 > 0:43:13and they went back and agitated for their freedom.
0:43:13 > 0:43:16And this is something that we shouldn't overlook.
0:43:16 > 0:43:19We're also looking at war from our point of view.
0:43:19 > 0:43:22We're looking at it from a generation of people
0:43:22 > 0:43:26who've had dozens of wars, and we have been honed by that.
0:43:26 > 0:43:29Sir Hew Strachan, we can still see...
0:43:29 > 0:43:31German expansionism, how much of a threat was that?
0:43:31 > 0:43:35How much was it, in 1914, seen as the absolute threat
0:43:35 > 0:43:37that it became over the next two or three decades?
0:43:37 > 0:43:40Well, as the other historians know perfectly well here,
0:43:40 > 0:43:43there is great debate on exactly that issue.
0:43:43 > 0:43:47There is a war aims programme produced after the war breaks out.
0:43:47 > 0:43:51For my money, but I think David might well disagree with this,
0:43:51 > 0:43:54the aims expand with the course of the war
0:43:54 > 0:43:56rather than become a precipitant of war.
0:43:56 > 0:44:00In other words, certainly, the German invasion of Belgium
0:44:00 > 0:44:03is fundamentally important in terms of uniting the country
0:44:03 > 0:44:08in what seems to be a cause that has moral and ethical justification.
0:44:08 > 0:44:10- Yeah.- And it is evidence of German expansionism.
0:44:10 > 0:44:14I mean, you know, the shock that anybody can behave like that towards
0:44:14 > 0:44:18a small, you know, defenceless country becomes part of the rhetoric
0:44:18 > 0:44:21not only here but in the United States for the rest of the war.
0:44:21 > 0:44:25So it has a fundamental underpinning, and the question that really follows
0:44:25 > 0:44:30from that is, you know, does the war itself generate its own momentum?
0:44:30 > 0:44:34As Germany undoubtedly does, because there's a massive debate
0:44:34 > 0:44:36within Germany as to what this war is being fought for,
0:44:36 > 0:44:39just as there's a massive debate during the war in this country
0:44:39 > 0:44:41as to what the war is being fought for.
0:44:41 > 0:44:43It is not clear because the war broke out...
0:44:43 > 0:44:45You have to remember how quick the crisis was
0:44:45 > 0:44:47in the last few weeks in the run-up to the war.
0:44:47 > 0:44:50Nobody is really sitting down and rationalising,
0:44:50 > 0:44:53even to the level that we're having this debate,
0:44:53 > 0:44:54about what the war is about.
0:44:54 > 0:44:58They know the seriousness of the situation that they're encountering
0:44:58 > 0:44:59but only then do they give it shape.
0:44:59 > 0:45:02As far as Britain's concerned, if Britain - and this, of course,
0:45:02 > 0:45:05we're using one counterfactual to answer another counterfactual
0:45:05 > 0:45:08so we're in a very slippery position here -
0:45:08 > 0:45:09but as far as Britain's concerned,
0:45:09 > 0:45:13if it had not fought, then what are you imagining would have happened?
0:45:13 > 0:45:15Would it have entered the war later?
0:45:15 > 0:45:17Which is essentially what the United States does
0:45:17 > 0:45:20because it realises that if it wants to take part
0:45:20 > 0:45:21in the peace settlement,
0:45:21 > 0:45:24if it wants to create a better international order,
0:45:24 > 0:45:26it can do that only by being in the war rather than out of the war.
0:45:26 > 0:45:28That would've been cheaper, wouldn't it?
0:45:28 > 0:45:29Well, it would've been,
0:45:29 > 0:45:32but you don't know how long the war's going to be or what the outcome is.
0:45:32 > 0:45:34Would you stay right out of it,
0:45:34 > 0:45:37retain neutrality, because Britain, after all, has profited
0:45:37 > 0:45:39in previous wars from being neutral?
0:45:39 > 0:45:41We forget that in 1914, Britain, in many ways,
0:45:41 > 0:45:43seems the most obvious neutral power of all.
0:45:43 > 0:45:45Even more obvious, in European terms,
0:45:45 > 0:45:47than the United States.
0:45:47 > 0:45:49If you stay out of a war, what then happens?
0:45:49 > 0:45:53Well, one answer in the short term is Britain would've cashed in
0:45:53 > 0:45:55on a trading boom because it would've taken
0:45:55 > 0:45:56the place of the Low Countries.
0:45:56 > 0:45:59Holland and the Scandinavian countries
0:45:59 > 0:46:02no doubt shipped goods to Germany to sustain its war effort.
0:46:02 > 0:46:04So we would've had a short-term economic boom.
0:46:04 > 0:46:06It would then presumably have found itself,
0:46:06 > 0:46:09essentially, without allies and without prestige
0:46:09 > 0:46:11and without an international role after 1918.
0:46:11 > 0:46:13And some might see that as a good thing,
0:46:13 > 0:46:16but in the terms in which this was being debated
0:46:16 > 0:46:19in Britain in 1914, that was absolutely unacceptable.
0:46:19 > 0:46:20Maggie.
0:46:20 > 0:46:23I know you want to come in, because I saw your body language.
0:46:23 > 0:46:24SHE LAUGHS
0:46:24 > 0:46:27I want to come in both in terms of the reasons that people fought,
0:46:27 > 0:46:30and in terms of the possibility of transcendence,
0:46:30 > 0:46:34and the reasons that there were for fighting as it went on,
0:46:34 > 0:46:36that we have a tendency to make something unified
0:46:36 > 0:46:40that was actually much more varied and mixed -
0:46:40 > 0:46:42that, you know, people's motivations were very, very varied,
0:46:42 > 0:46:45from, you know, "I work in an agricultural situation
0:46:45 > 0:46:46"and I'm going to have no job
0:46:46 > 0:46:48"for the rest of the winter," um, onwards.
0:46:48 > 0:46:52So I think we have this real tendency to group together
0:46:52 > 0:46:54in a way that we really need to avoid.
0:46:54 > 0:46:56Some definitely transcended
0:46:56 > 0:46:59and, individually, it was great for them.
0:46:59 > 0:47:00Others, it destroyed them.
0:47:00 > 0:47:02And it is that complexity,
0:47:02 > 0:47:05just like it's the complexity of the political arguments
0:47:05 > 0:47:08which weren't, it seems to me, static, if that makes sense?
0:47:08 > 0:47:10It's almost like it's something slippery being reworked...
0:47:10 > 0:47:12- Let's move on. - ..As the time goes on.
0:47:12 > 0:47:14Let's move on to, and it's been mentioned,
0:47:14 > 0:47:19the relationship with America, which took on a new complexion.
0:47:19 > 0:47:24Tim Stanley - did the bulldog become a lap dog?
0:47:24 > 0:47:26Oh, not immediately, not by any means.
0:47:26 > 0:47:28And Britain's importance as a world power is still...
0:47:28 > 0:47:30still remains in the '20s and '30s,
0:47:30 > 0:47:32if in part because America surprises everyone
0:47:32 > 0:47:35by having entered in order to be part of that peace process,
0:47:35 > 0:47:36and then deciding to withdraw.
0:47:36 > 0:47:38America goes into a period
0:47:38 > 0:47:40of intense conservatism in the '20s and '30s.
0:47:40 > 0:47:42All this discussion about the radical things
0:47:42 > 0:47:43that happened in Britain,
0:47:43 > 0:47:45it's actually quite the opposite in America.
0:47:45 > 0:47:47The Klan is revived as a force.
0:47:47 > 0:47:48It gets eight million members.
0:47:48 > 0:47:49It's a national thing
0:47:49 > 0:47:51by the middle of the 1920s.
0:47:51 > 0:47:54You get the rise of religious anti-Darwinism.
0:47:54 > 0:47:57You get the famous Scopes Monkey Trial.
0:47:57 > 0:48:00So America, in many ways, actually withdraws into itself.
0:48:00 > 0:48:03What it does do, however, is emerge financially fairly unscathed -
0:48:03 > 0:48:04comparatively unscathed -
0:48:04 > 0:48:07which means it's able to build itself up as an industrial power.
0:48:07 > 0:48:08So in that sense,
0:48:08 > 0:48:11our relationship slowly changes over time,
0:48:11 > 0:48:13but on this, I just want to very quickly say something
0:48:13 > 0:48:16about the point about Germany dominating the continent.
0:48:16 > 0:48:18This is controversial within historiography,
0:48:18 > 0:48:19but I don't like counterfactualism.
0:48:19 > 0:48:22I think you have to judge things in history on what happened,
0:48:22 > 0:48:25not speculate, because speculation is up to artists,
0:48:25 > 0:48:26and it's science fiction, essentially.
0:48:26 > 0:48:29And the reality of the state of the world after World War I
0:48:29 > 0:48:32is there are two very significant consequences.
0:48:32 > 0:48:34The first is the perceived humiliation of Germany,
0:48:34 > 0:48:37which creates the context for the collapse of the Weimar Republic
0:48:37 > 0:48:38and the rise of Nazi Germany.
0:48:38 > 0:48:40And the pretext as well.
0:48:40 > 0:48:42The second and the most important... The pretext.
0:48:42 > 0:48:44The second and, perhaps in the longer term,
0:48:44 > 0:48:46even more important and even more terrible
0:48:46 > 0:48:49in terms of lives lost effect, is the rise of communism.
0:48:49 > 0:48:53War radicalises Russia, and it creates Bolshevism.
0:48:53 > 0:48:54And that is something...
0:48:54 > 0:48:56Bolshevism - what about the 1905 revolution?
0:48:56 > 0:48:57Which failed.
0:48:57 > 0:49:00Which failed, and probably would've resulted, if it had succeeded,
0:49:00 > 0:49:03in a more constitutional monarchy, more democratic kind of government.
0:49:03 > 0:49:06- But war...- The first time a tragedy, the second time a victory.
0:49:06 > 0:49:09The important thing about the Bolsheviks is that they opposed the war.
0:49:09 > 0:49:11That's why they succeeded because no other...
0:49:11 > 0:49:13"Peace, bread, and land."
0:49:13 > 0:49:15This actually has some impact, some...
0:49:15 > 0:49:16Sorry, Sir Hew.
0:49:16 > 0:49:18They voted for war credits in 1914
0:49:18 > 0:49:21precisely because they saw it as a revolutionary moment.
0:49:21 > 0:49:24The socialist revolutionaries, the majority of them,
0:49:24 > 0:49:27didn't support the war, for the reasons you would absolutely expect.
0:49:27 > 0:49:30But precisely because they saw it as a revolutionary opportunity,
0:49:30 > 0:49:31they supported the war.
0:49:31 > 0:49:34So, publicly, they seem to be in a very ambiguous position.
0:49:34 > 0:49:36That was their, if you want to call it, their extra ticket.
0:49:36 > 0:49:39They said, "Peace, bread, and land. That's what we will give you."
0:49:39 > 0:49:41And, of course, they gave them none of those.
0:49:41 > 0:49:43On the facts, actually,
0:49:43 > 0:49:45Lenin was someone who opposed the war in a way
0:49:45 > 0:49:48that the rest of the socialist movement didn't, internationally.
0:49:48 > 0:49:51But just this question about the sort of contradictory attitudes
0:49:51 > 0:49:53that people had, that Maggie raised,
0:49:53 > 0:49:55and I think this is very, very important,
0:49:55 > 0:49:58because it's something that's kind of subsumed in the history.
0:49:58 > 0:49:59As the war...
0:49:59 > 0:50:02Actually, before the war, most people, I think you can say,
0:50:02 > 0:50:03in Europe, actually, were against it.
0:50:03 > 0:50:05They could see it coming and they opposed it.
0:50:05 > 0:50:08There were huge demonstrations, huge movements right across Europe,
0:50:08 > 0:50:13that kind of melted away in the... when the war actually began.
0:50:13 > 0:50:16But, interestingly, the opposition to the war grew
0:50:16 > 0:50:17as it progressed.
0:50:17 > 0:50:19And we talk about transcendence,
0:50:19 > 0:50:21but also people started - ordinary people -
0:50:21 > 0:50:23actually started to mobilise against the war.
0:50:23 > 0:50:25- MAGGIE:- Well, that's transcendence.
0:50:25 > 0:50:28Let's go to Lenin. He saw the war as an opportunity.
0:50:28 > 0:50:29Can I just finish?
0:50:29 > 0:50:31Actually, the truth of it is
0:50:31 > 0:50:34when Michael Gove and David Cameron and people say,
0:50:34 > 0:50:36you know, that people actually...
0:50:36 > 0:50:38that it was only the poets that opposed it,
0:50:38 > 0:50:42the truth is the war was brought to an end by the soldiers.
0:50:42 > 0:50:44The Russians walked away from the war.
0:50:44 > 0:50:46The soldiers walked out of the trenches.
0:50:46 > 0:50:48There were huge mutinies in Germany...
0:50:48 > 0:50:49- BONNIE: The United States. - ..in France.
0:50:49 > 0:50:52Even in Britain there were mutinies. There was a popular sentiment...
0:50:52 > 0:50:55OK, Jeremy Paxman. Do you want to come back on this?
0:50:55 > 0:50:56Well, I will yield to more learned figures
0:50:56 > 0:50:59such as Professor Strachan here,
0:50:59 > 0:51:00but it's certainly the case
0:51:00 > 0:51:03that there was an anti-war movement in this country
0:51:03 > 0:51:06throughout the war, as you well know.
0:51:06 > 0:51:08But it grew. What my... I agree with you, but it grew.
0:51:08 > 0:51:11What I'm saying is, the actual experience of the war
0:51:11 > 0:51:14amongst the families, but also amongst the soldiers themselves,
0:51:14 > 0:51:16radicalised people,
0:51:16 > 0:51:18and so you get to a situation by the end of the war...
0:51:18 > 0:51:21And this - I'm arguing this just because this is being challenged -
0:51:21 > 0:51:23this history's being challenged at the moment.
0:51:23 > 0:51:25The people who actually were involved...
0:51:25 > 0:51:27Who is challenging it?
0:51:27 > 0:51:28Well, the Government...
0:51:28 > 0:51:31The Government is challenging...? It's fact.
0:51:31 > 0:51:33Well, Michael Gove, David Cameron, Maria Miller.
0:51:33 > 0:51:36They've all been coming on and saying, "This is not the history."
0:51:36 > 0:51:38Professor, please.
0:51:38 > 0:51:39LAUGHTER
0:51:39 > 0:51:43Very kind - wonderful to be deferred to by Jeremy. But...
0:51:43 > 0:51:45It's the end of deference.
0:51:45 > 0:51:48I think what is very striking about the Government's message -
0:51:48 > 0:51:51we're talking about the national position here -
0:51:51 > 0:51:55is that what we might describe as some of the gains
0:51:55 > 0:51:58and...for all the controversy that's around that,
0:51:58 > 0:52:02are not so far, it seems to me, within the national understanding
0:52:02 > 0:52:04of how we're approaching the centenary.
0:52:04 > 0:52:06And I'm thinking particularly here
0:52:06 > 0:52:08of the rise of the trades union movement,
0:52:08 > 0:52:10the emergence of the Labour Party.
0:52:10 > 0:52:14You know, the story from the Left is not as fully articulated
0:52:14 > 0:52:17in any plan of national commemoration
0:52:17 > 0:52:20as the story of the military profile.
0:52:20 > 0:52:23And of course the argument for that is the presentation
0:52:23 > 0:52:24of this as national unity,
0:52:24 > 0:52:27and the responsibility of the government, quite reasonably,
0:52:27 > 0:52:29not to engage in the controversy that might lie along that.
0:52:29 > 0:52:31And I think that's entirely proper
0:52:31 > 0:52:34that the government doesn't want to engage in controversy.
0:52:34 > 0:52:37But it doesn't mean we shouldn't engage in that controversy,
0:52:37 > 0:52:39and it doesn't mean that we should not also recognise
0:52:39 > 0:52:43that there is, of course, a change over time -
0:52:43 > 0:52:45this is a four-and-a-half-year war
0:52:45 > 0:52:48and that people's opinions change as the war goes on.
0:52:48 > 0:52:50If Bonnie doesn't come in now,
0:52:50 > 0:52:52I hate to think what's going to happen.
0:52:52 > 0:52:53Bonnie, go on.
0:52:53 > 0:52:55I want to go back to what you originally asked
0:52:55 > 0:52:57about the United Kingdom and the world,
0:52:57 > 0:52:59Britain in the world, Britain and the United States.
0:52:59 > 0:53:02- And the Empire. - Tim is absolutely right.
0:53:02 > 0:53:05The United States of America always believes itself
0:53:05 > 0:53:08to be a reluctant ally to this country.
0:53:08 > 0:53:11This whole idea about the "special relationship"
0:53:11 > 0:53:12was actually something
0:53:12 > 0:53:16Winston Churchill worked very hard to create.
0:53:16 > 0:53:19Being half American, he felt he could, you know, he felt...
0:53:19 > 0:53:21able to do that.
0:53:21 > 0:53:23But Americans had no...
0:53:23 > 0:53:26had no connection with the United Kingdom,
0:53:26 > 0:53:28with what they called "England".
0:53:28 > 0:53:30So when Pershing came over
0:53:30 > 0:53:32and, Hew, please, if I'm wrong about this,
0:53:32 > 0:53:34but he just completely...
0:53:34 > 0:53:36It's like no way was the United States Army
0:53:36 > 0:53:39going to be under the command of anybody.
0:53:39 > 0:53:42So it was always the United States on its own, doing its own thing.
0:53:42 > 0:53:44It came over in 1918.
0:53:44 > 0:53:48The Germans knew the game was up when the Americans came into the war
0:53:48 > 0:53:52because there were fresh troops coming in.
0:53:52 > 0:53:56But the United States was fighting for the United States.
0:53:56 > 0:54:00And that's part of why Woodrow Wilson got slapped down.
0:54:00 > 0:54:02He got beat down over the League of Nations
0:54:02 > 0:54:04because as far as the United States was concerned,
0:54:04 > 0:54:08there was a threat possibly coming from Mexico, by way of Germany,
0:54:08 > 0:54:10and they were going to stop it.
0:54:10 > 0:54:11And that's how they saw it.
0:54:11 > 0:54:14It was never sort of an idea about saving the world for anything.
0:54:14 > 0:54:16That's what... that was Woodrow Wilson's idea.
0:54:16 > 0:54:18I'm not saying he was wrong,
0:54:18 > 0:54:20but I'm saying this myth that we think all of a sudden
0:54:20 > 0:54:22the United States comes in and it's a big partner -
0:54:22 > 0:54:24it's no way. No way.
0:54:24 > 0:54:26- It is interesting...- Frank.
0:54:26 > 0:54:28One geopolitical consequence
0:54:28 > 0:54:30- that's been totally ignored up to now...- Middle East?
0:54:30 > 0:54:33The Middle East. A direct legacy of the...
0:54:33 > 0:54:34Give me a chance!
0:54:34 > 0:54:36- ..tragedy of the First World War. - Yeah.
0:54:36 > 0:54:39And one with which my comrades, myself,
0:54:39 > 0:54:40and many thousands of other,
0:54:40 > 0:54:43hundreds of thousands of other people, still suffer with,
0:54:43 > 0:54:44to this day and today.
0:54:44 > 0:54:46You're speaking as an ex-soldier?
0:54:46 > 0:54:48As soldiers and civilians in Syria today -
0:54:48 > 0:54:50Syria, a legacy of the First World War,
0:54:50 > 0:54:53of the deceptions of the Sykes-Picot Agreement.
0:54:53 > 0:54:57Iraq itself - our tragic involvement in that place,
0:54:57 > 0:55:01a direct consequence of the mistakes and the deceits...
0:55:02 > 0:55:07..imposed upon that part of the world by us, as victors, in 1918.
0:55:07 > 0:55:08Jeremy Paxman.
0:55:08 > 0:55:12I completely agree with you! I completely agree.
0:55:12 > 0:55:16Inherently unviable states were created.
0:55:16 > 0:55:18Clearly, Iraq being a case in point.
0:55:18 > 0:55:21Syria being, perhaps, another one.
0:55:21 > 0:55:25The whole Sykes-Picot Agreement is indefensible.
0:55:25 > 0:55:27That was how the world worked in those days.
0:55:27 > 0:55:28Nowadays, I guess you'd have
0:55:28 > 0:55:30some United Nations commission or whatever.
0:55:30 > 0:55:32- Which might work, Jeremy... - It might work!
0:55:32 > 0:55:34Unlike the Sykes-Picot.
0:55:34 > 0:55:36Which is the purpose of the League of Nations, of course -
0:55:36 > 0:55:38to deal with some of the problems
0:55:38 > 0:55:40that arose subsequently and the fail...
0:55:40 > 0:55:43You know, as David's already said, I mean, the tragedy here...
0:55:43 > 0:55:45"Tragedy" is a loaded word, but the tragedy here
0:55:45 > 0:55:49is really the reluctance to implement and enforce the settlement
0:55:49 > 0:55:50after it is there.
0:55:50 > 0:55:52And, of course, going back to Sykes-Picot,
0:55:52 > 0:55:56we're talking about an agreement reached in 1916, not in 1918,
0:55:56 > 0:55:59which reflects the pressure that the belligerent powers are under.
0:55:59 > 0:56:01People are thinking how do they win this war first,
0:56:01 > 0:56:03how do they settle it afterwards?
0:56:03 > 0:56:06Of course, one argument would be
0:56:06 > 0:56:08that they should have addressed the long-term consequences.
0:56:08 > 0:56:11Of course they should. We can now see that very clearly.
0:56:11 > 0:56:16But if you think of the immediacy of the pressures of 1916,
0:56:16 > 0:56:18then I think expecting...
0:56:18 > 0:56:20You know, are we any better at doing this -
0:56:20 > 0:56:23at getting long-term second and third order consequences
0:56:23 > 0:56:25out of some of our political positions?
0:56:25 > 0:56:27- That's a very good question. - Not very much better.
0:56:27 > 0:56:28Professor.
0:56:30 > 0:56:33What you have to understand is there are two sides to this.
0:56:33 > 0:56:35It's not just the British fighting within Europe -
0:56:35 > 0:56:37the British Isles fighting within Europe -
0:56:37 > 0:56:40it's also Britain as the head of a worldwide Empire
0:56:40 > 0:56:42with imperial and strategic interests all over the globe.
0:56:42 > 0:56:45So, coming back to the issue that's been raised several times
0:56:45 > 0:56:46about what was this war for...
0:56:46 > 0:56:48being fought for on the British side?
0:56:48 > 0:56:50Yes, it's fundamental to look at Belgium.
0:56:50 > 0:56:52I think that really did matter for British public opinion
0:56:52 > 0:56:54and for part of the Cabinet.
0:56:54 > 0:56:56It's not untrue to say it was a war for protection
0:56:56 > 0:56:58of international law and, to an extent,
0:56:58 > 0:57:00for democracy within Western Europe.
0:57:00 > 0:57:01But it also, as it developed,
0:57:01 > 0:57:04became a war to expand Britain's imperial possessions in Africa
0:57:04 > 0:57:06and, more particularly, in the Middle East.
0:57:06 > 0:57:08And that's part of the reason,
0:57:08 > 0:57:10when that became published by the Bolsheviks -
0:57:10 > 0:57:13the secret agreements that we'd reached with other countries
0:57:13 > 0:57:15to carve up the Middle East -
0:57:15 > 0:57:17the reaction against that from the Labour Party
0:57:17 > 0:57:18and from British domestic opinion,
0:57:18 > 0:57:21demanding that this should now become a war for democratisation
0:57:21 > 0:57:23and national self-determination,
0:57:23 > 0:57:25which clearly, in many ways, it wasn't.
0:57:25 > 0:57:26So it's a kind of Janus-faced thing.
0:57:26 > 0:57:28It's partly a war for democracy,
0:57:28 > 0:57:30but it's also a war for imperial expansion.
0:57:30 > 0:57:33You have to see - take both those things into account
0:57:33 > 0:57:34in assessing this.
0:57:34 > 0:57:36And, of course, the end of Empire
0:57:36 > 0:57:39led to the emancipation of millions of people all over the planet.
0:57:39 > 0:57:42In the very longer term, I mean, it took another World War,
0:57:42 > 0:57:45a Great Depression, Cold War, all sorts of things
0:57:45 > 0:57:46before that happened,
0:57:46 > 0:57:48and it would be wrong to see the emancipation
0:57:48 > 0:57:50of the millions of people in Africa and Asia
0:57:50 > 0:57:52as purely a result of the First World War.
0:57:52 > 0:57:53Well, listen...
0:57:53 > 0:57:56It's quite important as a catalytic stage in that process.
0:57:56 > 0:57:58OK, well, listen, thank you all very much indeed.
0:57:58 > 0:58:00Give yourselves a round of applause for that. Thank you.
0:58:00 > 0:58:02The debate continues on Twitter, online.
0:58:02 > 0:58:04Join us next time.
0:58:04 > 0:58:06Goodbye from everybody here in London.
0:58:06 > 0:58:08Have a really good Sunday. Thank you.