0:00:02 > 0:00:04Today on The Big Questions, life after death.
0:00:19 > 0:00:21APPLAUSE
0:00:21 > 0:00:25Good morning. I'm Nicky Campbell. Welcome to The Big Questions.
0:00:25 > 0:00:28We're back at Shelfield Community Academy in Walsall
0:00:28 > 0:00:31to debate one very big question - is there life after death?
0:00:31 > 0:00:34Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions this morning!
0:00:36 > 0:00:40Now, this week, the blockbuster American film, Heaven Is For Real,
0:00:40 > 0:00:42was released over here.
0:00:42 > 0:00:47It is based on the true story of a four-year-old boy, Colton Burpo,
0:00:47 > 0:00:50who survived a near-death experience during emergency surgery.
0:00:50 > 0:00:54The child later described to his parents how he had visited Heaven,
0:00:54 > 0:00:58sat on the knee of Jesus, patted his multicoloured horse
0:00:58 > 0:01:02and caught sight of Mary, John the Baptist and Satan.
0:01:02 > 0:01:06But Colton also knew about things that had happened at home
0:01:06 > 0:01:10when he was struggling for life and this convinced his pastor father
0:01:10 > 0:01:14that his son had gone to Heaven and watched over them all -
0:01:14 > 0:01:17he had experienced life after death.
0:01:17 > 0:01:21Well, to debate whether life after death is possible,
0:01:21 > 0:01:24we have assembled theologians from several faiths,
0:01:24 > 0:01:26people who have heard from dead people and dead animals,
0:01:26 > 0:01:29experts on death, psychologists, sceptics, atheists
0:01:29 > 0:01:32and former believers. You can join in, too,
0:01:32 > 0:01:35via Twitter or online. Just log on to...
0:01:36 > 0:01:40..and follow the links, to where you can continue the discussion online.
0:01:40 > 0:01:42There will be lots of encouragement and contributions
0:01:42 > 0:01:46from our very lively Walsall audience. Is there life
0:01:46 > 0:01:48after death?
0:01:48 > 0:01:50Dr Conor Cunningham,
0:01:50 > 0:01:53theology and philosophy, University of Nottingham.
0:01:53 > 0:01:55Let us talk about the soul, first of all.
0:01:55 > 0:01:57There you are. What's a soul?
0:01:57 > 0:02:01A soul is not what we tend to think, certainly in the Christian tradition,
0:02:01 > 0:02:06where we think of it as something I've got in my pocket, like a wallet,
0:02:06 > 0:02:09and it floats off to Florida -
0:02:09 > 0:02:14read "heaven". Rather, it is the very possibility of the body, at all.
0:02:14 > 0:02:17So, for someone like St Thomas Aquinas,
0:02:17 > 0:02:22the soul is the form of the body. That is how you recognise something -
0:02:22 > 0:02:27a giraffe, a tomato, a collar... Different.
0:02:27 > 0:02:30And that is how we live our entire social lives.
0:02:30 > 0:02:33That is why we think someone killed someone, because they killed
0:02:33 > 0:02:36someone who had a form - a soul.
0:02:36 > 0:02:38It is actually... It's the Nicky soul...
0:02:39 > 0:02:41..not the collar soul.
0:02:41 > 0:02:44- We are different.- It's a body, isn't it?- You may have been a giraffe!
0:02:44 > 0:02:49It's body. Your body. Your corporeal form, as they put it.
0:02:49 > 0:02:53Yeah. And the point here, I mean - I shouldn't jump ahead -
0:02:53 > 0:02:57but you do not have... Cos we think
0:02:57 > 0:02:59of the soul as being something spiritual. It's not, at all.
0:02:59 > 0:03:04Erm...the soul is the possibility of any body, whatsoever.
0:03:04 > 0:03:08There aren't any bodies without a soul.
0:03:08 > 0:03:13It just happens that ours has a nature which is subsistent,
0:03:13 > 0:03:16which means, by that, that its rationality, its ability
0:03:16 > 0:03:19to think...
0:03:19 > 0:03:22to write, from Origin of Species
0:03:22 > 0:03:25to...whatever...King Lear,
0:03:25 > 0:03:28it has the ability to transcend its corporeality.
0:03:28 > 0:03:31And this is one thing that people must remember,
0:03:31 > 0:03:34and Aquinas said this quite clearly, St Thomas Aquinas, said,
0:03:34 > 0:03:37"The body is there to ennoble the soul",
0:03:37 > 0:03:41whereas we, in Western culture, tend to think that the soul is there
0:03:41 > 0:03:46- to ennoble the body.- Right. - The body enables the soul to be.
0:03:46 > 0:03:51So what about - and more and more scientists are acknowledging this -
0:03:51 > 0:03:54what about the cognitive, the more sentient species,
0:03:54 > 0:03:56the ones closest to us - bonobos, chimpanzees -
0:03:56 > 0:04:00but also extraordinary elephants? Their own self-awareness,
0:04:00 > 0:04:04their own cognition, their sense of self, their ability with,
0:04:04 > 0:04:07you know, to plan ahead, episodic memory.
0:04:07 > 0:04:10- Absolutely.- So... - Sorry.- Are we unique or not?
0:04:10 > 0:04:15We are unique, but uniqueness has to be very careful.
0:04:15 > 0:04:19Anyone who wins the Premier League - Man City -
0:04:19 > 0:04:22is still part of a league, yeah? They are still part of a league.
0:04:22 > 0:04:26Just so we are unique, we might win the Premier League,
0:04:26 > 0:04:30but it doesn't mean we're not the same players playing the same game.
0:04:30 > 0:04:33We're still playing football. Right down at the bottom -
0:04:33 > 0:04:37- QPR have just got up yesterday. - So, what, are QPR dogs or something?
0:04:37 > 0:04:38No, no!
0:04:38 > 0:04:40- But it's... - So, it's, kind of, a league table?
0:04:40 > 0:04:44Yeah, it's like, I would say, it's like a Jewish thinker said,
0:04:44 > 0:04:48"What we have forgotten is that, from evolution, we are connected
0:04:48 > 0:04:49"to other animals."
0:04:49 > 0:04:53- And everyone thought, "Boo!"... - OK, so, it's...
0:04:53 > 0:04:55..like it's a bad thing, but, no, it's not.
0:04:55 > 0:04:58- Because it means they're connected to us.- So, everything has a soul,
0:04:58 > 0:05:01but humans have a slightly elevated form of soul.
0:05:01 > 0:05:07So, at what stage in our journey from tree-dwelling apes
0:05:07 > 0:05:10to bipedal hunter-gatherers
0:05:10 > 0:05:14did we go "Woosh! Right, there you go, you've got a special soul."
0:05:14 > 0:05:17- At what stage?- Well...
0:05:17 > 0:05:21Was it homo erectus, was it homo ergaster, what was it?
0:05:21 > 0:05:24Well, anthropologically, we all came from Africa, obviously,
0:05:24 > 0:05:26early Africa paradigms.
0:05:26 > 0:05:29And then when we got to Europe, we all went,
0:05:29 > 0:05:30"Hey, let's have a cappuccino,"
0:05:30 > 0:05:32and suddenly there was a massive burst
0:05:32 > 0:05:37in our cerebral potential, so sort of 40,000 years ago.
0:05:37 > 0:05:40- So, it was a gradual thing? - It was massive.
0:05:40 > 0:05:43- So the soul didn't appear all of a sudden?- No.- It gradually appeared.
0:05:43 > 0:05:46Chris French, does this make any sense to you whatsoever?
0:05:46 > 0:05:49Well, I mean, in general terms, the idea that we've evolved
0:05:49 > 0:05:53from simpler species, perfect sense, absolutely.
0:05:53 > 0:05:55That's biological fact.
0:05:55 > 0:05:58But that does raise that whole question of, for those people,
0:05:58 > 0:06:01and there are many of them, I don't think we've got one here,
0:06:01 > 0:06:03but there are many people who believe that humans
0:06:03 > 0:06:05are the only species with a soul,
0:06:05 > 0:06:08then obviously evolution is a problem.
0:06:08 > 0:06:11Because when did souls suddenly come into being?
0:06:11 > 0:06:13I mean, did they come along with the opposable thumb, or what?
0:06:13 > 0:06:15How did it work?
0:06:15 > 0:06:19And I mean, again, in terms of whether or not we have souls,
0:06:19 > 0:06:21it all depends on how you define it.
0:06:21 > 0:06:22For a lot of people,
0:06:22 > 0:06:25and again, I don't think we've got an example here,
0:06:25 > 0:06:27but for a lot of people, the soul is essentially
0:06:27 > 0:06:31kind of consciousness, but in some way it survives bodily death.
0:06:31 > 0:06:34Now, I don't have any problem at all in accepting that we all have
0:06:34 > 0:06:37consciousness, and I think we are a long way from understanding
0:06:37 > 0:06:40exactly how consciousness arose and how it worked, etc cetera.
0:06:40 > 0:06:44But the idea that we have an immortal soul, a consciousness
0:06:44 > 0:06:47that survives bodily death, then I've got big problems with that.
0:06:47 > 0:06:50We've got a... Consciousness?
0:06:50 > 0:06:52You see, this is the point I disagree with.
0:06:52 > 0:06:55Because I think if we are going to be...
0:06:55 > 0:06:58We think of the supernatural as something extra special.
0:06:58 > 0:07:00It's up here, it's the Florida holiday you always wanted,
0:07:00 > 0:07:03the Willy Wonka ticket that you get to go the Chocolate Factory,
0:07:03 > 0:07:05the gold ticket.
0:07:05 > 0:07:08Then the natural is just here, like the floor, the shoes,
0:07:08 > 0:07:09like toenails and stuff.
0:07:09 > 0:07:12But the point is that any good atheist, philosopher or scientist
0:07:12 > 0:07:16will tell you, there isn't any consciousness.
0:07:16 > 0:07:18It's not, it's a life after death.
0:07:18 > 0:07:22The big, big, big debate, is there life before death?
0:07:22 > 0:07:24And I would argue...
0:07:24 > 0:07:28- No, no. It's not a near-death experience...- I'm going with it.
0:07:28 > 0:07:30It's mere life experience we want.
0:07:30 > 0:07:32And I think that consciousness is completely wiped out
0:07:32 > 0:07:36without a theological framework, a metaphysical framework.
0:07:37 > 0:07:43Chris, there are 10 billion neurons in our brain,
0:07:43 > 0:07:46and they're connected. Through the neurotransmitters
0:07:46 > 0:07:50they have a thousand connections, each of them.
0:07:50 > 0:07:55- I mean, it's mind-boggling how the mind boggles, isn't it?- Absolutely.
0:07:55 > 0:07:57Is that consciousness?
0:07:57 > 0:08:00- I mean, again...- In there?
0:08:00 > 0:08:02The nature of consciousness is something that philosophers
0:08:02 > 0:08:06have debated for centuries, and they still argue about it.
0:08:06 > 0:08:08It's referred to in philosophy as the hard problem.
0:08:08 > 0:08:14How could it be that subjective self-awareness can arise?
0:08:14 > 0:08:17- Something that seems to be, whether it is or not...- Transcendent?
0:08:17 > 0:08:20..something different to this physical body, this physical brain.
0:08:20 > 0:08:22How can one arise from the other?
0:08:22 > 0:08:25It's called the hard problem in philosophy for a good reason,
0:08:25 > 0:08:27because nobody's solved it yet.
0:08:27 > 0:08:30And I personally don't think that a theological framework
0:08:30 > 0:08:32- actually helps us very match. - Reverend...- Sorry...
0:08:32 > 0:08:36- I will be back, I will be back. - It's David Chalmers who coined
0:08:36 > 0:08:38- the hard problem.- The hard problem.
0:08:38 > 0:08:42Let's spread the love. Sorry. Reverend Dr Andrew Pinson.
0:08:42 > 0:08:45The hard problem, solve it for us.
0:08:45 > 0:08:48Because you know the complexity of the brain,
0:08:48 > 0:08:50it could be one of those God of the Gaps things.
0:08:50 > 0:08:53Something we just do not yet understand.
0:08:53 > 0:08:56I'll just agree with Dr Cunningham about this idea of the soul.
0:08:56 > 0:08:59Originally, it meant organising principle,
0:08:59 > 0:09:01or living principle, animating principle.
0:09:01 > 0:09:04We use the same word for the word animal, in fact.
0:09:04 > 0:09:06And the Ancient Greeks saw is a great difference
0:09:06 > 0:09:09between the matter that's is dead, and the matter that is living.
0:09:09 > 0:09:11Even though the matter is almost exactly the same,
0:09:11 > 0:09:15the animating principle is not there in the case of the dead being.
0:09:15 > 0:09:19But what the Greeks also suggested is that human souls are different,
0:09:19 > 0:09:22because we have the ability to step outside the flow of time.
0:09:22 > 0:09:26We have the ability to understand ideas, concepts, abstractions,
0:09:26 > 0:09:28numbers, and so on.
0:09:28 > 0:09:31And so there must be something rather special about the human soul.
0:09:31 > 0:09:34So even before consideration in Christian theology,
0:09:34 > 0:09:38for example, people in ancient Greece were already thinking
0:09:38 > 0:09:40that there must be something immortal about this special kind
0:09:40 > 0:09:43of human soul. And just to add about the uniqueness...
0:09:43 > 0:09:47Can I just refer you, before you do that, to Chris's previous point?
0:09:47 > 0:09:51At what stage in the ascent of man
0:09:51 > 0:09:55and our progress to become bipedal apes and the primates we are now,
0:09:55 > 0:09:58the very bright primates, did we get this soul?
0:09:58 > 0:09:59I think there is a fallacy here,
0:09:59 > 0:10:02because people sometimes think with complex systems
0:10:02 > 0:10:04that you change the inputs continuously
0:10:04 > 0:10:07and you've got a change of output that is continuous.
0:10:07 > 0:10:08But imagine another situation.
0:10:08 > 0:10:10Imagine if you raised the Earth's temperature.
0:10:10 > 0:10:13Suddenly the Gulf Stream might switch off, for example.
0:10:13 > 0:10:16Something like that might happen with complex systems like living
0:10:16 > 0:10:18systems. You have a certain number of changes accumulated.
0:10:18 > 0:10:21If suddenly you get a change of state, like a phase,
0:10:21 > 0:10:25like ice melting or something, and the capacity human beings have
0:10:25 > 0:10:28seem to be different in kind, not just in degree.
0:10:28 > 0:10:31So Chesterton said, a bird builds a nest.
0:10:31 > 0:10:33It doesn't build a nest in the Gothic style.
0:10:33 > 0:10:37We don't see ants building statues of famous ants.
0:10:37 > 0:10:40But what about the more self-aware animals?
0:10:40 > 0:10:43There's extraordinary scientific work...
0:10:43 > 0:10:45There are certainly animals...
0:10:45 > 0:10:47It's interesting you cite the example of elephants.
0:10:47 > 0:10:50- We think elephants can point. - They grieve.- Very sophisticated.
0:10:50 > 0:10:52Grieve, perhaps, yes.
0:10:52 > 0:10:56Certainly, some animals seem to get towards some of these capacities.
0:10:56 > 0:11:00But nevertheless, what human beings do seems to be different in degree.
0:11:00 > 0:11:03- Killing each other by the million. - Good and bad.
0:11:03 > 0:11:06- But there's an explosion of potential.- Chris French.
0:11:06 > 0:11:09I think it is that question of, it's a matter of degree.
0:11:09 > 0:11:12We're talking about a kind of continuum here.
0:11:12 > 0:11:16And so the notion that you either do have consciousness or you don't,
0:11:16 > 0:11:19or you do have a soul or you don't, I think is a fallacy.
0:11:19 > 0:11:23It's an emergent problem. And so therefore to say...
0:11:23 > 0:11:28In terms of all the things you mentioned there, counting, planning,
0:11:28 > 0:11:31all these other things, even language, debatably,
0:11:31 > 0:11:33animals do demonstrate these things.
0:11:33 > 0:11:37We're realising more and more about the cognitive ability of animals.
0:11:37 > 0:11:39And there's nothing you can really point to that says,
0:11:39 > 0:11:43this is something that only humans have got. It's a fallacy.
0:11:43 > 0:11:46- Jackie, you speak to animals, don't you?- Absolutely.
0:11:46 > 0:11:50- Spoke to me earlier!- I'm just amazed
0:11:50 > 0:11:54that people can think that only humans have cognitive thinking,
0:11:54 > 0:11:57only humans have the soul, have emotions
0:11:57 > 0:11:59- and that we should be above... - Scientists no longer say that.
0:11:59 > 0:12:03- But we're talking about the soul. You believe animals have souls?- Yes.
0:12:03 > 0:12:05- You say you communicate with animals.- Absolutely.
0:12:05 > 0:12:08But we're talking about how they think, and as Chris was saying,
0:12:08 > 0:12:11they can do absolutely amazing things. Same with elephants.
0:12:11 > 0:12:13They can travel for miles.
0:12:13 > 0:12:15There was a story about a man who'd died and saved some elephants.
0:12:15 > 0:12:18They tracked and found his grave and stood there,
0:12:18 > 0:12:20- and that was all recorded. - Lawrence Anthony.- Yeah.
0:12:20 > 0:12:23And they do absolutely amazing things.
0:12:23 > 0:12:26And it's beyond my understanding to think that people think
0:12:26 > 0:12:29that they are like robots, or they just do because they do.
0:12:29 > 0:12:32They are on the same level, but unique. They are different.
0:12:32 > 0:12:34An animal is an animal, but they think
0:12:34 > 0:12:36- and do amazing things as an animal. - What do they say to you?
0:12:36 > 0:12:39Oh, they have problems. It's like horses. Horses get problems.
0:12:39 > 0:12:42So, therefore, if you think of it, a horse, it's a big animal.
0:12:42 > 0:12:45If they didn't want us to ride them and compete and jump and stuff,
0:12:45 > 0:12:47they can just say no. And some do.
0:12:47 > 0:12:49So, they have problems.
0:12:49 > 0:12:53When we talk to an animal, they can actually understand what we say,
0:12:53 > 0:12:56and sometimes there's problems where they don't understand.
0:12:56 > 0:12:59They have misconceptions about things, the same as children do.
0:12:59 > 0:13:01And then you'll get, say,
0:13:01 > 0:13:04an animal that's been abused by somebody, and people will know this,
0:13:04 > 0:13:07animals get seriously abused and yet they go to another home
0:13:07 > 0:13:10and with love and care people can actually turn that animal round.
0:13:10 > 0:13:13And not just to be, "Oh, I'll have a biscuit."
0:13:13 > 0:13:17Look at the cat the other day that attacked a dog to save that child.
0:13:17 > 0:13:21- That just shows...- Well, empathy is more and more observed, isn't it?
0:13:21 > 0:13:25But have you talked to dead animals?
0:13:25 > 0:13:30- Absolutely. This is basically... I think...- Some people will scoff.
0:13:30 > 0:13:34Oh, absolutely. But this, to me, our bodies are just the energy.
0:13:34 > 0:13:39And if I can talk about the energy field, NASA invented a machine
0:13:39 > 0:13:43to measure auras, and so therefore they are measuring our energy field.
0:13:43 > 0:13:45It's been done.
0:13:45 > 0:13:48A man had a leg amputated, it still showed up in his picture.
0:13:48 > 0:13:50This is our soul, our core.
0:13:50 > 0:13:55So when we leave this physical body, then yes, they go to spirit.
0:13:55 > 0:13:56And I don't just...
0:13:56 > 0:13:59There's lots of people that do my job, you talk to them,
0:13:59 > 0:14:01you tell them stuff, the owners know about their animals.
0:14:01 > 0:14:04I wouldn't know the animals, but I can tell them stuff
0:14:04 > 0:14:06that that animal shared with them when they were living.
0:14:06 > 0:14:09- You look a bit sceptical, Chris. - I'm looking very sceptical indeed.
0:14:09 > 0:14:13- I'm sorry, Jackie. - No, no bother at all.- Even more so.
0:14:13 > 0:14:17Would you be as sceptical with any other belief system?
0:14:17 > 0:14:20Whether they spoke about virgin births, or resurrections...
0:14:20 > 0:14:24- Personally, yes. - ..on night flights to wherever?
0:14:24 > 0:14:26Are you equally sceptical?
0:14:26 > 0:14:30- Are you equivalently sceptical of all?- Yeah.
0:14:30 > 0:14:35- So no religion would exist then?- Are you an equal-opportunities sceptic?
0:14:35 > 0:14:39Exactly, yeah. I'm an atheist, so, you know.
0:14:41 > 0:14:44The thing is, we get a lot of these kind of claims.
0:14:44 > 0:14:47As far as I am aware, and please do send me the details
0:14:47 > 0:14:50if I'm wrong, Jackie, NASA have not got a machine that measures auras.
0:14:50 > 0:14:55- They have.- There are lots of claims related to these kind of things,
0:14:55 > 0:14:56like Kirlian photography et cetera.
0:14:56 > 0:15:00It can all be explained in terms of conventional physics and chemistry.
0:15:00 > 0:15:03But these are claims that we can actually put to the test,
0:15:03 > 0:15:05- and indeed, I spend a lot of my time...- Falsifiable.
0:15:05 > 0:15:09The idea that Jackie can actually read animals' minds,
0:15:09 > 0:15:11we could put that to the test.
0:15:11 > 0:15:13I've tested lots of psychics with lots of claims,
0:15:13 > 0:15:15under properly controlled conditions,
0:15:15 > 0:15:18- and they don't seem to be able to do what they think they can do.- Jackie?
0:15:18 > 0:15:21It's interesting. You use the word supernatural, OK?
0:15:21 > 0:15:25It is supernatural. Super, as in very natural. But it's like exams.
0:15:25 > 0:15:27That's true.
0:15:27 > 0:15:29Somebody goes for an exam and they can be cracking at school, but you
0:15:29 > 0:15:33put them in an exam, under pressure, and it's like, this is harder.
0:15:33 > 0:15:35And I know you say that.
0:15:35 > 0:15:38But why don't you say, just follow, say, 10 psychics' work,
0:15:38 > 0:15:39follow what they do.
0:15:39 > 0:15:42I've changed animals that were going to be put to sleep and stuff.
0:15:42 > 0:15:44Can I take you back to what we're discussing,
0:15:44 > 0:15:46which is the basic point that,
0:15:46 > 0:15:48you are actually theoretically in agreement, because
0:15:48 > 0:15:51if there is such a thing as a soul, you are closer to Jackie's position.
0:15:51 > 0:15:53You are saying if there is a soul, animals have one.
0:15:53 > 0:15:56I wouldn't deny animal consciousness.
0:15:56 > 0:15:58Again, it depends how you want to define the soul.
0:15:58 > 0:16:00Personally, I don't find it a very useful concept,
0:16:00 > 0:16:03and I certainly don't believe in the immortality of souls.
0:16:03 > 0:16:07- Let's get the Muslim perspective. Good morning, sir.- Good morning.
0:16:07 > 0:16:13A cardiologist. And also an Imam. Mr Hamed, isn't it?
0:16:13 > 0:16:17- Dr Hamed, yes. - Dr Hamed, I do beg your pardon.
0:16:17 > 0:16:22What is a soul, and where do the souls come from?
0:16:22 > 0:16:26I am commenting on the soul in Islamic belief, which is part
0:16:26 > 0:16:31of the monotheism, believing in one God, is that it is part of God.
0:16:31 > 0:16:36Now, animals do have souls, but they are different from humans.
0:16:36 > 0:16:38That is why in the Koran there is a verse,
0:16:38 > 0:16:40"We dignified the human beings."
0:16:40 > 0:16:43So, human beings have been dignified by God to have the willing
0:16:43 > 0:16:45to do things.
0:16:45 > 0:16:48Unlike other souls, which... You can communicate with them, you can feel
0:16:48 > 0:16:51that your animal, whether it is a horse or a camel or whatever,
0:16:51 > 0:16:54feels your emotion. That is different.
0:16:54 > 0:16:57But the soul of human beings is quite different, and there is a
0:16:57 > 0:17:01difference, also from conceptive matters, in between brain and mind.
0:17:01 > 0:17:04And that is what the philosophy talks about.
0:17:04 > 0:17:06There is quite a difference between that.
0:17:06 > 0:17:09All animals have brains, but they don't have a mind.
0:17:09 > 0:17:11See, this is the...
0:17:11 > 0:17:13There are animals, you will appreciate that there are animals
0:17:13 > 0:17:17which have cognition, and also, they think, some have mental cognition.
0:17:17 > 0:17:19- They have.- They not only know they are an animal,
0:17:19 > 0:17:21- they- know- they know they are an animal, which is metacognition.
0:17:21 > 0:17:24There are animals with self-awareness. It's a spectrum.
0:17:24 > 0:17:30- You think it's animals, and it's us. - Yeah. As I'm saying,
0:17:30 > 0:17:34- their cognition is different from the cognition of human beings. - That's what you believe.
0:17:34 > 0:17:36Scientists may disagree with you, but that's what you believe,
0:17:36 > 0:17:39and that's fine. What about souls? Where do they come from,
0:17:39 > 0:17:41and how are they handed out?
0:17:41 > 0:17:43From an Islamic perspective, it all comes from God.
0:17:43 > 0:17:46And usually the human being created as a small flash
0:17:46 > 0:17:49in the womb of the woman.
0:17:49 > 0:17:52And then, after a certain period, usually around 120 days...
0:17:52 > 0:17:56- Do the souls pre-exist? - The souls pre-exist from God.
0:17:56 > 0:18:00Everything God created and is there, but it will come to that body,
0:18:00 > 0:18:03to that flesh at that time, at 120 days.
0:18:03 > 0:18:06Where are the souls right now that have not yet come to flesh
0:18:06 > 0:18:10and come to bodies? Where are they now? Are they in a special place?
0:18:10 > 0:18:14There's a very special saying... HE SPEAKS IN ARABIC
0:18:14 > 0:18:19The translation is that God takes our oath from before we existed,
0:18:19 > 0:18:22that you recognise that there is one God,
0:18:22 > 0:18:27and that the place of mercy to everything, to the whole universe.
0:18:27 > 0:18:28And then everybody accepted that.
0:18:28 > 0:18:32That's why we all, whether you are humanists, atheists,
0:18:32 > 0:18:34at certain times, when the plane crashes
0:18:34 > 0:18:36or when someone has a difficulty or has a divorce,
0:18:36 > 0:18:40then we all come back to our source of love, God.
0:18:40 > 0:18:44Whether we believe in it before or not, that will come.
0:18:44 > 0:18:48- Again, Chris, you're looking agitated.- I know, I don't agree.
0:18:48 > 0:18:51There is this statement, "No atheists in foxholes".
0:18:51 > 0:18:52It's just not true.
0:18:52 > 0:18:55I know lots of atheists and humanists who've gone through
0:18:55 > 0:18:58very difficult times and they don't resort to praying to God.
0:18:58 > 0:19:00They just don't believe there is such a thing.
0:19:00 > 0:19:02Deborah, I'm so sorry not to have come to you sooner.
0:19:02 > 0:19:05Because I see you've been moving around in your seat.
0:19:05 > 0:19:08You want to come in. So, the soul.
0:19:08 > 0:19:10Is there anything more, anything greater,
0:19:10 > 0:19:14anything that transcends the sum of the parts of the neurons
0:19:14 > 0:19:17and axons and dendrites and neurotransmitters?
0:19:17 > 0:19:20I think the first thing we've got from what we've got so far is that
0:19:20 > 0:19:23you've got to start with your definitions very, very carefully.
0:19:23 > 0:19:27And the colloquial definition of a soul starts with a personality
0:19:27 > 0:19:30and a character, a consciousness, and something
0:19:30 > 0:19:32that can last after death.
0:19:32 > 0:19:34So that's a very colloquial definition.
0:19:34 > 0:19:37And it's not the definition that Conor started with.
0:19:37 > 0:19:40So, if you are going to believe in something like that,
0:19:40 > 0:19:42it's frankly quite hard.
0:19:42 > 0:19:44We'd all like to. I mean, I'm a total atheist,
0:19:44 > 0:19:47but I would like to, why wouldn't I want to last?
0:19:47 > 0:19:50I just don't think that the evidence is particularly compelling.
0:19:50 > 0:19:55But Mark Twain said something like, "I was dead for billions of years
0:19:55 > 0:19:58"before I was born and it didn't trouble me in the slightest."
0:19:58 > 0:20:02Absolutely. That's the thing, it's just an in-built preference of ours.
0:20:02 > 0:20:03It's the way we look at the world.
0:20:03 > 0:20:06It must be the single hardest thing to escape,
0:20:06 > 0:20:08the thought that we have our perspective.
0:20:08 > 0:20:11You know, this is me looking at things and interpreting things
0:20:11 > 0:20:12and talking to you.
0:20:12 > 0:20:14It's very difficult to imagine this without me
0:20:14 > 0:20:18as a witness in the middle of it. And I think that's the failure.
0:20:18 > 0:20:23Let's get a Buddhist perspective on this from the Venerable Choesang.
0:20:23 > 0:20:25- Good morning.- Good morning.
0:20:25 > 0:20:30A senior nun of His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet.
0:20:30 > 0:20:33- Good to have you here.- Thank you.
0:20:33 > 0:20:37- For you, the soul is on a journey, isn't it? Through many lives?- Yes.
0:20:37 > 0:20:41We don't refer to it as a soul, although I would use that
0:20:41 > 0:20:43when I'm talking within a Western society.
0:20:43 > 0:20:46We talk about it being an essence of mind,
0:20:46 > 0:20:49and that essence of mind is what's released from the body on death
0:20:49 > 0:20:52and goes forward to the next life.
0:20:52 > 0:20:54So all sentient beings have an essence of mind,
0:20:54 > 0:20:58and that essence of mind grows with a cognitive ability,
0:20:58 > 0:21:02depending on what type of animal they are.
0:21:02 > 0:21:06So, you wouldn't go from an insect to a human, perhaps, but once
0:21:06 > 0:21:09you've been a human you probably wouldn't go back to being an insect.
0:21:09 > 0:21:11Although you could travel backwards a little,
0:21:11 > 0:21:13depending on what you're going to be.
0:21:13 > 0:21:17So we see all sentient beings as being very precious,
0:21:17 > 0:21:19that they all have that essence of mind.
0:21:19 > 0:21:22And the Tibetans actually studied for over a thousand years the mind,
0:21:22 > 0:21:25rather than the reaction with the body,
0:21:25 > 0:21:29and came up with the fact that mind is everywhere.
0:21:29 > 0:21:30It's in every cell of your body.
0:21:30 > 0:21:33And scientists now are actually proving that one.
0:21:33 > 0:21:36And so the brain is just like the motherboard
0:21:36 > 0:21:40that puts the thought into action.
0:21:40 > 0:21:43But your essence of mind is throughout your body.
0:21:43 > 0:21:46And it gathers at the point of death, and then
0:21:46 > 0:21:49leaves your body at some point after the heart has stopped beating.
0:21:49 > 0:21:52And you believe that what we are now is dictated
0:21:52 > 0:21:56- by what we have done previously in a previous life?- Yes.
0:21:56 > 0:21:59- And earlier in this life. - What about your own situation?
0:21:59 > 0:22:02- Because you have had illness in your life.- Yes.
0:22:02 > 0:22:05Have you considered why that was?
0:22:05 > 0:22:07Yes, it really helped me to understand, actually.
0:22:07 > 0:22:10Because rather than be thinking that somebody out there
0:22:10 > 0:22:13defined how my life was going to be, to understand Buddhism
0:22:13 > 0:22:16and realise that I was in control of my life,
0:22:16 > 0:22:19and the fact that I was born with a disability,
0:22:19 > 0:22:22and I have met mothers that have been born with a disability,
0:22:22 > 0:22:25knowing it comes from a previous karma is actually much more
0:22:25 > 0:22:29acceptable than that there is a God figure out there defining
0:22:29 > 0:22:33- that that is going to be my life. - Was it your fault?
0:22:33 > 0:22:36No, it's just the culmination of a previous life.
0:22:36 > 0:22:40So I'm no longer responsible for how I behaved in a previous life,
0:22:40 > 0:22:46- but at that time I was responsible. - Right, OK. So are you a changed...?
0:22:46 > 0:22:50Are you a changed essence of person, or essence of human?
0:22:50 > 0:22:52But you're the same essence?
0:22:52 > 0:22:55Yes, your main propensities will go forward.
0:22:55 > 0:22:58You see some children, they'll be only 18 months old
0:22:58 > 0:23:01and they'll go stamping on animals and they are always angry.
0:23:01 > 0:23:04And then you get others that want to mother everything,
0:23:04 > 0:23:07and you see babies that are born with the wisdom of ages.
0:23:07 > 0:23:09So you see this essence of mind that's come forward
0:23:09 > 0:23:12- from a previous life.- Deborah?
0:23:12 > 0:23:15I think there's a couple of things there.
0:23:15 > 0:23:18First of all, we can end up imbruing other people's characters,
0:23:18 > 0:23:21especially when they are very tiny, with specific characteristics,
0:23:21 > 0:23:23and bringing those things out.
0:23:23 > 0:23:26And however you choose to find the comfort in your own life
0:23:26 > 0:23:29is of course your own business.
0:23:29 > 0:23:34But the belief in predestination, sorry, in karma and reincarnation
0:23:34 > 0:23:37and things like that, can sometimes be downright offensive.
0:23:37 > 0:23:43I have a friend who has very, very bad cerebral palsy. She's an atheist.
0:23:43 > 0:23:47But she has family members who are Hindu,
0:23:47 > 0:23:51and they believe in some way she has deserved this. They think it's OK.
0:23:51 > 0:23:54And they don't want to listen to her whining.
0:23:54 > 0:23:57Yes, we wouldn't use words like, you deserve it.
0:23:57 > 0:24:02- It's a culmination of previous karma.- Have you got any idea?
0:24:02 > 0:24:09Is it possible to get any inkling, any glimpse, of previous life?
0:24:09 > 0:24:11- Can you find out?- Yes.
0:24:11 > 0:24:14When you become more of a senior practitioner,
0:24:14 > 0:24:17- your past lives do start bouncing in.- Have yours bounced in?
0:24:17 > 0:24:20We all see this, don't we? You have a deja vu moment.
0:24:20 > 0:24:22And we say that's because you've recognised a place,
0:24:22 > 0:24:25or you've recognised a person from a previous life.
0:24:25 > 0:24:27And yes, they do start coming. Not in order.
0:24:27 > 0:24:31They just come bouncing through when you are in your other practice.
0:24:31 > 0:24:35Lots of bits of evidence are put forward by people
0:24:35 > 0:24:38who believe in reincarnation, deja vu would be one example.
0:24:38 > 0:24:42Apparently retrieving past lives through hypnotic regression,
0:24:42 > 0:24:44all kinds of other things.
0:24:44 > 0:24:47All of these can be explained much more plausibly with a lot of evidence
0:24:47 > 0:24:49to support it in terms of what we know
0:24:49 > 0:24:52about science and human psychology.
0:24:52 > 0:24:55Are you telling us that when you see someone and you think,
0:24:55 > 0:24:58"I've seen this person before, I know this person from somewhere,"
0:24:58 > 0:25:00it's not because you knew them in a previous life?
0:25:00 > 0:25:04I'm saying exactly that, yes. I mean, we know, for example,
0:25:04 > 0:25:08that what's happening in the temporal lobes of the brain can sometimes
0:25:08 > 0:25:11give you that feeling of deja vu,
0:25:11 > 0:25:14that feeling that you recognise that person, even though you don't.
0:25:14 > 0:25:17And certainly with respect to memories of past lives,
0:25:17 > 0:25:20there's absolutely no doubt at all in my mind that we are dealing
0:25:20 > 0:25:21with false memories there.
0:25:21 > 0:25:24They may feel very real, but they're actually not.
0:25:24 > 0:25:25I want to come to you in a second, but...
0:25:25 > 0:25:28I've actually investigated two young children that have come out
0:25:28 > 0:25:30with previous lives that they've had,
0:25:30 > 0:25:32which no way they could have had that information.
0:25:32 > 0:25:34What was the information?
0:25:34 > 0:25:36One was that he was a water carrier in India,
0:25:36 > 0:25:39and he explained about his bicycle and how his legs became bent, and
0:25:39 > 0:25:43he explained what the carrier looked like, and what his village was like.
0:25:43 > 0:25:45He was four years old.
0:25:45 > 0:25:48And then another one was, even at two and a half,
0:25:48 > 0:25:50this little girl was talking football to her father,
0:25:50 > 0:25:52and maintained that she could drive a car.
0:25:52 > 0:25:54And she'd crashed her previous car.
0:25:54 > 0:25:58And what glimpses have you had into your previous lives,
0:25:58 > 0:26:01since you're quite spiritually advanced?
0:26:01 > 0:26:03I've come up with some previous lives, and one of them,
0:26:03 > 0:26:05in particular Tibetan life,
0:26:05 > 0:26:08has actually been proven by the high Lamas.
0:26:08 > 0:26:12But it's not something we actually discuss openly with people,
0:26:12 > 0:26:17- just within our own groups.- But it's interesting to get a sense of it.
0:26:17 > 0:26:20Gail, Gail Millington. Morning.
0:26:20 > 0:26:23You're a past life regression therapist.
0:26:23 > 0:26:30- So this part of our conversation is absolutely for you.- Yes, absolutely!
0:26:30 > 0:26:32And your husband, I believe,
0:26:32 > 0:26:35- you've been married to him in previous lives as well?- Yes.
0:26:35 > 0:26:38- CONOR:- So was I.- So were you what? - I was married to him as well!
0:26:39 > 0:26:41That's quite a revelation!
0:26:41 > 0:26:44I think it's quite easy to be very flippant about this.
0:26:44 > 0:26:46- Yeah, Conor. Put it back in your box.- Sorry!
0:26:46 > 0:26:49So how do you know that you knew him before, in previous lives?
0:26:49 > 0:26:52Four times, I believe. How do you know that?
0:26:52 > 0:26:54Well, because of being regressed myself.
0:26:55 > 0:26:57And I think that,
0:26:57 > 0:27:00certainly with doing regressions with other people, as well,
0:27:00 > 0:27:05I mean I'm not in total agreement with what the previous speaker
0:27:05 > 0:27:10mentioned in terms of karma, because I believe that we...
0:27:10 > 0:27:12There's nobody that judges us other than ourselves
0:27:12 > 0:27:14when we pass over to the other side.
0:27:14 > 0:27:19And that we decide when we reincarnate what lessons
0:27:19 > 0:27:24we want to learn from the forthcoming incarnation.
0:27:24 > 0:27:30So my concept of the soul would be the immortal essence
0:27:30 > 0:27:33that goes from one incarnation to another.
0:27:33 > 0:27:36It's not that far away from what the Venerable Choesang was saying.
0:27:36 > 0:27:38No, it isn't too far away.
0:27:38 > 0:27:42But I don't believe that it's for... That it's karmic,
0:27:42 > 0:27:47why the lady has found herself in ill health.
0:27:47 > 0:27:53I think that she has chosen that to enable her to do what she does now.
0:27:53 > 0:27:55She's been brought to this point in time,
0:27:55 > 0:27:58and perhaps doing what she does in terms of her Buddhist belief,
0:27:58 > 0:28:01as a result of the disability.
0:28:01 > 0:28:03I'll come back to what Venerable Choesang was saying
0:28:03 > 0:28:05in a second - just to explore this a little bit more -
0:28:05 > 0:28:07What were you in a previous life?
0:28:07 > 0:28:10Were you sometimes a man, and was your husband a woman?
0:28:10 > 0:28:13Most of the time it was as it is at the moment.
0:28:13 > 0:28:16- But it has been different? - There has been differences.
0:28:16 > 0:28:22But, yes, times as a Shaman, various other scenarios.
0:28:22 > 0:28:25But are you the same person? You were a Shaman, were you?
0:28:25 > 0:28:26Yes, in one life.
0:28:26 > 0:28:29Are you the same person as the person who was a Shaman?
0:28:29 > 0:28:34- When was this?- No, that was a soul progression. The soul progresses.
0:28:34 > 0:28:36The same soul, but not the same person?
0:28:36 > 0:28:38- Absolutely not the same person. - When were you a Shaman?
0:28:38 > 0:28:41- Hundreds of years ago. - Hundreds of years ago, yeah.
0:28:41 > 0:28:42Do you know when specifically?
0:28:42 > 0:28:44- I can't remember when it was, to be honest.- No.
0:28:44 > 0:28:48But it was hundreds of years ago. But there's no linear time.
0:28:48 > 0:28:51When you are doing regressions, you can go back
0:28:51 > 0:28:55to any particular life that's going to help you specifically
0:28:55 > 0:28:59in your current life now, so you don't go back to a specific...
0:28:59 > 0:29:04I believe it's the higher self that chooses the life that you need
0:29:04 > 0:29:07to go back to which is going to be most beneficial to help you now.
0:29:07 > 0:29:10- Deborah?- For what it's worth, and I can assure you it isn't worth a lot,
0:29:10 > 0:29:12I'm a qualified hypnotherapist.
0:29:12 > 0:29:17A quick course while I had nothing else to do. And it was fascinating.
0:29:17 > 0:29:19It's good for anxiety, that's about all.
0:29:19 > 0:29:23And one of the most amazing things about hypnosis is just how it really
0:29:23 > 0:29:26frees your imagination. If you can let yourself go with it,
0:29:26 > 0:29:29you can come up with the most amazing things.
0:29:29 > 0:29:32And you can come up with something that's historically plausible,
0:29:32 > 0:29:35like you were a Viking raider, or you can come up with something
0:29:35 > 0:29:37completely bizarre, that you were on an alien spacecraft.
0:29:37 > 0:29:41So that, by itself, having a peculiar experience under
0:29:41 > 0:29:44a hypnotic trance is not at all bizarre.
0:29:44 > 0:29:46- It's totally predictable. - What you typically find
0:29:46 > 0:29:49is that the stories that people typically come up with,
0:29:49 > 0:29:52the narratives, and they've got all the images in their heads
0:29:52 > 0:29:55- that make it seems very real... - So, it's sincere.- Totally sincere.
0:29:55 > 0:30:00But it corresponds to the Hollywood version of life in Ancient Rome,
0:30:00 > 0:30:04or wherever it may be. It's not the historically accurate version.
0:30:04 > 0:30:06It's fantasy.
0:30:06 > 0:30:10There is an awful lot of supporting evidence that's been done
0:30:10 > 0:30:14specifically by Dr Ian Stevenson, for example,
0:30:14 > 0:30:17where he has actually researched
0:30:17 > 0:30:22quite specific cases of reincarnation.
0:30:23 > 0:30:27And nobody is going to give you absolutely concrete proof
0:30:27 > 0:30:30that this is the case, but there is a growing raft of evidence.
0:30:30 > 0:30:35- You have communicated with, or been in the presence of people who have spoken to dead people?- Absolutely.
0:30:35 > 0:30:39- What are they saying? What are the dead people saying? What's the message?- It varies.
0:30:39 > 0:30:43It's very specific to the person concerned.
0:30:43 > 0:30:49There isn't a general message. It's very specific for a specific person.
0:30:49 > 0:30:52Right. We're going to talk about life after death soon.
0:30:52 > 0:30:55But is there an unpleasant place and a pleasant place,
0:30:55 > 0:30:57or is it all fine after?
0:30:57 > 0:30:59No, I don't believe there is such a place as hell.
0:31:01 > 0:31:04So, it's all kind of... Jackie, what's it like?
0:31:04 > 0:31:07What are the dogs telling you?
0:31:07 > 0:31:10To me, it's just your energy is free,
0:31:10 > 0:31:12and yes, we do get some visual stuff,
0:31:12 > 0:31:15but what I would say is, talking about a general message...
0:31:15 > 0:31:19It's like you hadn't seen somebody for say, 20 years,
0:31:19 > 0:31:22and somebody goes, "Here, have a phone, talk to them."
0:31:22 > 0:31:24OK, the information you have to work out, but at the end of the day,
0:31:24 > 0:31:28they will tell you stuff about you, about them, things you shared,
0:31:28 > 0:31:31and that is where evidence comes in.
0:31:31 > 0:31:33Rather than just, "They say hi."
0:31:33 > 0:31:37Manoher, good morning. So what about the...
0:31:37 > 0:31:40Does anything chime with you about the journey of the soul
0:31:40 > 0:31:42that you have heard so far?
0:31:43 > 0:31:45Not entirely.
0:31:45 > 0:31:50I mean, my biggest question really would be, given that we
0:31:50 > 0:31:54can map memories to brain function and stuff,
0:31:54 > 0:31:58so it's a very physical thing, I'd be curious, as well as language,
0:31:58 > 0:32:02communication and stuff, I'd be curious as to know exactly
0:32:02 > 0:32:05how something that was immaterial had memory.
0:32:05 > 0:32:08And also, could communicate.
0:32:08 > 0:32:11That would be my biggest question about any of this.
0:32:11 > 0:32:14What is the Sikh belief about the journey of the soul?
0:32:14 > 0:32:21- Are you a believer?- Am I a believer? I'm very much a religious person.
0:32:21 > 0:32:26But however, the assumptions would be that all religions are set up
0:32:26 > 0:32:30in the same way with their beliefs. So there is something physical,
0:32:30 > 0:32:33and then there is something non-physical - that is the soul.
0:32:33 > 0:32:37And that a soul then migrates and carries karma and stuff.
0:32:37 > 0:32:41This is the impression that people generally have of Eastern religions.
0:32:41 > 0:32:46I think the place to start with Sikhism would be that you start
0:32:46 > 0:32:49with a closed system, and make the assumption that everything
0:32:49 > 0:32:52is divine, whether it's material or immaterial.
0:32:53 > 0:32:58And that anything that is living, given that everything is divine,
0:32:58 > 0:33:02there is no soul to be moved on from here to there or anywhere else.
0:33:02 > 0:33:05There are cycles of birth and death, we know that.
0:33:05 > 0:33:07There are multiple types of existence,
0:33:07 > 0:33:10multiple types of animals and plants that have evolved over time.
0:33:10 > 0:33:12So that isn't problematic.
0:33:13 > 0:33:17What is more interesting from a Sikh perspective is, what any theory
0:33:17 > 0:33:20you have about the soul or consciousness,
0:33:20 > 0:33:22what it does ethically.
0:33:22 > 0:33:27So, if you make the assumption that one type of animal has
0:33:27 > 0:33:30a more elevated soul or consciousness than another,
0:33:30 > 0:33:35does that then lead you to behave differently towards that animal?
0:33:35 > 0:33:38Well, there used to be views, didn't there, in previous times,
0:33:38 > 0:33:42- that one race had a superior type of soul to another.- Indeed.
0:33:42 > 0:33:46So there is a kind of a road to hell on that one, isn't there?
0:33:46 > 0:33:49Any thoughts from the audience, while we're on souls?
0:33:49 > 0:33:52Right on the centre. While we're on souls.
0:33:52 > 0:33:55I find it quite interesting, the indestructible aspect
0:33:55 > 0:33:58of the soul, is it in the brain, is it in the mind?
0:33:58 > 0:34:01People who have had brain injuries, it's also affected their mind.
0:34:01 > 0:34:03Is it in the heart? Say if somebody has had a heart attack or
0:34:03 > 0:34:06heart transplant, does that mean their soul has moved on as well?
0:34:06 > 0:34:08So I think we have to be very careful,
0:34:08 > 0:34:12and concepts such as karma and rebirth can be quite offensive
0:34:12 > 0:34:15for many people who have been oppressed for generations.
0:34:15 > 0:34:17Political elites that have used them,
0:34:17 > 0:34:19and said, actually, you are in the state that you are,
0:34:19 > 0:34:21you are suffering, because of what you've done in the past.
0:34:21 > 0:34:23- You have to be careful.- Thank you.
0:34:23 > 0:34:27- Gentleman just back there, hello. - It was Phineas P Gage who,
0:34:27 > 0:34:30a while ago in the 19th century, there was a rock mining accident
0:34:30 > 0:34:32and a pipe went through his head
0:34:32 > 0:34:34and it destroyed most of his left frontal lobe.
0:34:34 > 0:34:36This changed his personality,
0:34:36 > 0:34:39and people who thought before he was a nice, kind person,
0:34:39 > 0:34:42found that he was aggressive and mean to people.
0:34:42 > 0:34:45Surely this takes away from the fact that the soul
0:34:45 > 0:34:48- is what is your personality. - It's biochemistry.
0:34:48 > 0:34:52It's backed by biochemistry, yeah. What about life after death?
0:34:52 > 0:34:57- Andrew Pinsent, what happens? Is there such thing as hell?- OK.
0:34:57 > 0:35:00I think the best way of describing it,
0:35:00 > 0:35:02CS Lewis summed it up in just one short phrase. He said,
0:35:02 > 0:35:07"In this life we write the title page of what we are to be in eternity."
0:35:09 > 0:35:12One thing a Christian and atheist would agree about,
0:35:12 > 0:35:15when we leave this life we cease to change.
0:35:15 > 0:35:17That becomes the pattern of our eternity.
0:35:17 > 0:35:21As to whether or not we have another life or not, I think
0:35:21 > 0:35:25we really have to draw for the most part on revelation.
0:35:25 > 0:35:27Of course, as a Christian,
0:35:27 > 0:35:29there's all kinds of additional information on this.
0:35:29 > 0:35:34The continuity of the personality of Christ, the resurrection,
0:35:34 > 0:35:38that he knows his friends.
0:35:38 > 0:35:42You've also got the sense of a life, ultimately, an embodied life,
0:35:42 > 0:35:45actually, ultimately an embodied life.
0:35:45 > 0:35:48Embodied, we have our physical bodies. At which stage in our life?
0:35:48 > 0:35:51- In terms of the resurrection of the dead.- When we're 30, when we're 20,
0:35:51 > 0:35:53when we're 40? At what stage?
0:35:53 > 0:35:55Actually, there are differences of view on that.
0:35:55 > 0:36:01I wouldn't want to give a definitive suggestion.
0:36:01 > 0:36:04But there is some sense in which, we were meant to be body and soul.
0:36:04 > 0:36:06We were created as body and soul.
0:36:06 > 0:36:10And if there is a God, a loving God, God wants us to be body and soul
0:36:10 > 0:36:14eventually, in some kind of new existence.
0:36:14 > 0:36:18In this life, we write the title page of what we are to be in eternity.
0:36:18 > 0:36:23Is it not a very anthropocentric view to say that, looking at
0:36:23 > 0:36:27the world through human eyes to say, we will be reunited with our bodies?
0:36:27 > 0:36:31Is that almost a kind of medieval version?
0:36:31 > 0:36:33An attempt to understand, an attempt at solace,
0:36:33 > 0:36:36an attempt at consolation?
0:36:36 > 0:36:39For many, it's just an utterly ridiculous concept.
0:36:39 > 0:36:43Well, what otherwise can we look through, except our own eyes?
0:36:43 > 0:36:45that doesn't make it either valid or invalid.
0:36:45 > 0:36:48But the very question about our bodies when we are 15, I'll have one
0:36:48 > 0:36:51- when I was 21, I think. - OK, I'll give you the view...
0:36:51 > 0:36:54Thomas Aquinas thought we all ought to be 30 years old,
0:36:54 > 0:36:58that's roughly the time that Christ died, for example.
0:36:58 > 0:37:00And did he have a divine revelation?
0:37:00 > 0:37:05Or was he just a philosopher writing and working it out as he went along?
0:37:05 > 0:37:10Well, he suggested it as a possibility. As a probable thing.
0:37:10 > 0:37:15- Chris French.- But the issue raised by this gentleman here,
0:37:15 > 0:37:18I mean, supposing somebody suffers some form of brain damage
0:37:18 > 0:37:23that completely changes their personality before the age of 30?
0:37:23 > 0:37:25Does that mean that that's the version of them
0:37:25 > 0:37:28that goes onto the afterlife? It just doesn't really make sense.
0:37:28 > 0:37:31It's arbitrary, it's about trying to make out we are God's special
0:37:31 > 0:37:34creation, and really evolution knocked that on the head.
0:37:34 > 0:37:37- The theory of evolution knocked that on the head.- Conor?
0:37:37 > 0:37:40Yes, I just disagree. First of all I think that story is not true.
0:37:40 > 0:37:44- But there is actually better versions than that.- Which story?
0:37:44 > 0:37:47Phineas, with the pole through the head.
0:37:47 > 0:37:50But if your hippocampus is damaged, your personality changes.
0:37:50 > 0:37:53But the better one is actually the guy who became a paedophile
0:37:53 > 0:37:56through a tumour in his brain in Texas, and they took it out,
0:37:56 > 0:37:58and he was fine again,
0:37:58 > 0:38:00and it grew back again and he went back to paedophilia.
0:38:00 > 0:38:03So that's a better classic example.
0:38:03 > 0:38:05I think the thing we're doing here is,
0:38:05 > 0:38:08I still think we're doing the natural-supernatural thing too much.
0:38:08 > 0:38:13And I think that we are... If atheism is true,
0:38:13 > 0:38:19materialist reductionism is the case, fair dos. That's absolutely fair dos.
0:38:19 > 0:38:22But if that's the case, there are no atheists.
0:38:22 > 0:38:25It's as bad as me thinking that Nicky, whose body
0:38:25 > 0:38:30I saw two years ago, clothed, two years ago, is completely different.
0:38:30 > 0:38:33- Different cells. - You're completely different.
0:38:33 > 0:38:36- You're already resurrected. - Yeah.- In that sense.
0:38:36 > 0:38:39But we still call you Nicky. So, how are we doing that? It's form.
0:38:39 > 0:38:43- It's regeneration.- And that's why we hold people accountable for crimes.
0:38:43 > 0:38:48- Hitler, genocide, rape, paedophiles. - But the memories are still there.
0:38:48 > 0:38:50- Yeah.- The old memories and the new memories
0:38:50 > 0:38:52and the memories that have formed. That's continuity.
0:38:52 > 0:38:56But the point is, what they call HADD,
0:38:56 > 0:38:57hyper agency density device
0:38:57 > 0:39:00or something like that, where we make false positives,
0:39:00 > 0:39:04like lovers sitting on a summer's day looking up at the sky and seeing
0:39:04 > 0:39:06clouds and going, "That looks bit like a horse,"
0:39:06 > 0:39:09"That's a bit like the Isle of Wight, that looks a bit like..." But it's not, is it?
0:39:09 > 0:39:13We are doing it by looking at each other, thinking... What's your name?
0:39:13 > 0:39:19- Chris.- Chris! I'm making a false positive, thinking it's Chris.
0:39:19 > 0:39:21It's not true.
0:39:21 > 0:39:24Because Chris is simply a material aggregation which has no form.
0:39:24 > 0:39:26- But it's called Chris. - It doesn't exist.- Pete.
0:39:26 > 0:39:29Do we spend too much time...and it's very persuasive, isn't it?
0:39:29 > 0:39:32This idea, it's a very powerful idea. It's a very consoling idea.
0:39:32 > 0:39:34The idea that we go on, we see our loved ones again,
0:39:34 > 0:39:36we see our dog again.
0:39:36 > 0:39:38I'd love to see the dog that died when I was 11 years old.
0:39:38 > 0:39:43I still get weepy when I think about that dog. It's persuasive, isn't it?
0:39:43 > 0:39:47- Can I have a word later on?- Give us his name.- It's persuasive, isn't it?
0:39:47 > 0:39:51It is. I think there's something about it that is comforting
0:39:51 > 0:39:55and consoling, the sense that everything stops at the grave
0:39:55 > 0:39:59is actually quite terrifying for both those who are saying farewell
0:39:59 > 0:40:03to relatives, and also when people reach the end of their lives.
0:40:03 > 0:40:05You definitely have a sense that, "Is this it?"
0:40:05 > 0:40:07I hope there is something more than this.
0:40:07 > 0:40:10And maybe there is, maybe there isn't.
0:40:10 > 0:40:12But I don't think, in the end, we are ever going
0:40:12 > 0:40:15to come up with an answer this side of wherever it is.
0:40:15 > 0:40:18There's a lovely Talmudic story which says that just before a baby
0:40:18 > 0:40:20is born, an angel takes this baby
0:40:20 > 0:40:23and shows it the entire secrets of the universe,
0:40:23 > 0:40:25then places his finger on the baby's lips,
0:40:25 > 0:40:27and the baby forgets everything.
0:40:27 > 0:40:29And we then spend the rest of our lives remembering.
0:40:29 > 0:40:31Now, we're not doing a very good job, let's be honest.
0:40:31 > 0:40:34A couple of comments and I'll come back to you. Guy at the back.
0:40:34 > 0:40:38- I'd just like to say...- No, you go first, you've got the microphone.
0:40:38 > 0:40:41I really do agree with that in the sense of,
0:40:41 > 0:40:45I work in a hospice where I've seen many patients deteriorate.
0:40:45 > 0:40:49And going back to what you said about when people are backed
0:40:49 > 0:40:52into a corner, you could say that they turn to religion.
0:40:52 > 0:40:56That's not true. A lot of people are very, very upfront about it.
0:40:56 > 0:40:59"I'm going to die, I don't believe that there's anything after death."
0:40:59 > 0:41:01- And they're fine about it.- Yeah.
0:41:01 > 0:41:05And some people who have been religious for their entire lives,
0:41:05 > 0:41:08for years and years, will then renounce their faith.
0:41:08 > 0:41:09I've seen that happen as well.
0:41:11 > 0:41:13When you are in that situation,
0:41:13 > 0:41:18- some people do actually consistently stay atheist.- And at the back? Hello.
0:41:18 > 0:41:22I think it's been well established in neuroscience for a long time
0:41:22 > 0:41:26that when you damage certain parts of the brain
0:41:26 > 0:41:28you lose certain abilities of the mind.
0:41:28 > 0:41:31So if you damage the prefrontal cortex you lose the ability
0:41:31 > 0:41:33to feel compassion for people, for example.
0:41:33 > 0:41:35In philosophy, this is called the causal argument.
0:41:35 > 0:41:39But what's been said, although no-one has said it directly,
0:41:39 > 0:41:42is that at complete destruction of the brain at death,
0:41:42 > 0:41:45that the cognitive faculties stay intact,
0:41:45 > 0:41:47rise off the brain and live on for all eternity.
0:41:47 > 0:41:50Which, to me, poses even more difficult questions
0:41:50 > 0:41:52than it seems to answer.
0:41:52 > 0:41:57I mean, Pete, interesting points from our contributors there.
0:41:57 > 0:42:00But you can understand, as I say, it's a seductive idea, isn't it?
0:42:00 > 0:42:04You can understand, for example, why Christianity really took off.
0:42:04 > 0:42:09In Roman times, which is when Christianity began, the Jews,
0:42:09 > 0:42:12and of course, Jesus was a Jew as well,
0:42:12 > 0:42:14were having a particularly tough time under the Romans.
0:42:14 > 0:42:16They were oppressing them and persecuting them,
0:42:16 > 0:42:18and killing them quite randomly.
0:42:18 > 0:42:19And yet the rabbis,
0:42:19 > 0:42:23who were the ones who were bringing the Judaism into the world
0:42:23 > 0:42:26as we currently know it, 2,000 years ago,
0:42:26 > 0:42:29were continuing to insist that the people carry out these
0:42:29 > 0:42:31various commandments, and the more commandments they observed,
0:42:31 > 0:42:35the more God would be pleased with them, and all would go well.
0:42:35 > 0:42:38And this was not a very persuasive argument,
0:42:38 > 0:42:40because evidence was clearly to the contrary.
0:42:40 > 0:42:44Things were NOT going well. The Romans were giving the Jews a difficult time,
0:42:44 > 0:42:45and nothing they did made any difference.
0:42:45 > 0:42:49And the Jews complained to the rabbis, because they're very good at complaining,
0:42:49 > 0:42:52and said, why are we doing this stuff if it isn't working?
0:42:52 > 0:42:55So, the rabbis said, "OK, there'll be a life after death
0:42:55 > 0:42:57"and it will all be better in that one."
0:42:57 > 0:43:00And that was where the whole concept of life after death emerged.
0:43:00 > 0:43:03It's fascinating as to why it emerged,
0:43:03 > 0:43:06because... Professor Tony Walter, Death Studies, Bath University.
0:43:06 > 0:43:10It's really interesting relating different cultures, different
0:43:10 > 0:43:14periods of time, with what people believed and why they believe it.
0:43:14 > 0:43:16- Give us some examples. - Yeah.
0:43:16 > 0:43:19Just take something like belief in hell, which is distinctly
0:43:19 > 0:43:21out of fashion nowadays.
0:43:21 > 0:43:25- Not for some of the people that appear on this programme, I have to say.- Yes!
0:43:25 > 0:43:26But in the Middle Ages,
0:43:26 > 0:43:29probably more people did believe in everlasting flames
0:43:29 > 0:43:31for ordinary sins.
0:43:31 > 0:43:34But that was a time when you could be hung for stealing a sheep.
0:43:34 > 0:43:37But not any sheep. If it was the Lord of the Manor's sheep,
0:43:37 > 0:43:38then you'd be hung.
0:43:38 > 0:43:41The point was, the size of the punishment in the medieval system
0:43:41 > 0:43:44was actually not dependent on the size of the crime
0:43:44 > 0:43:48but on the status of the person you had offended against.
0:43:48 > 0:43:50So, minor sins against an almighty God
0:43:50 > 0:43:53merited actual eternal damnation.
0:43:53 > 0:43:55So, in that legal system, then it feels plausible.
0:43:55 > 0:43:58But once you move to modern legal systems,
0:43:58 > 0:44:00where punishment fits the crime, as it were,
0:44:00 > 0:44:03that notion of eternal damnation doesn't make any sense any more.
0:44:03 > 0:44:05So you get a kind of relationship between legal systems
0:44:05 > 0:44:08- and what people think about life after death.- Add also tribal systems.
0:44:08 > 0:44:11Surely if we're talking about the desert tribes of the seventh or
0:44:11 > 0:44:15eighth century, or 2,000 years ago, you can understand the patriarchal
0:44:15 > 0:44:18reasons for what they were saying and why they were saying it.
0:44:18 > 0:44:19Oh, yes. Absolutely.
0:44:19 > 0:44:23What people believe about life after death depends on all sorts of things.
0:44:23 > 0:44:25Partly what they've been taught, but also,
0:44:25 > 0:44:30as you've just described, very specific historical circumstances.
0:44:30 > 0:44:33But also, very specific personal circumstances.
0:44:33 > 0:44:36And I think it's not necessarily the most helpful way to see
0:44:36 > 0:44:39afterlife beliefs as a way of coping with bereavement.
0:44:39 > 0:44:43People who are grieving very often have a very clear sense
0:44:43 > 0:44:46of an ongoing relationship between them and the person who has died.
0:44:46 > 0:44:49And actually some of the things they say about what happens
0:44:49 > 0:44:52after death is actually a way of articulating those relationships.
0:44:52 > 0:44:55Whether you believe those relationships to have some kind
0:44:55 > 0:45:00- of spiritual distance or not is a question, obviously.- Dr Hamed.
0:45:00 > 0:45:04- Let me talk about health. - I'll tell you about health.
0:45:04 > 0:45:07I have to set the agenda because I know how long we have got.
0:45:07 > 0:45:09It doesn't make sense, what you told him,
0:45:09 > 0:45:11that there is 11 billion cells in our brain,
0:45:11 > 0:45:14and we still think that there is no God. It doesn't make sense.
0:45:14 > 0:45:18In any school now, any judge... You will be Hitler-like,
0:45:18 > 0:45:21and somebody who is saint-like, and everything is fine.
0:45:21 > 0:45:23- There should be a God.- OK, hell.
0:45:23 > 0:45:25- And that's the concept of hell. - Life after death,
0:45:25 > 0:45:29or, you know, life before death, as somebody said,
0:45:29 > 0:45:37hell is very graphically described in the Koran, isn't it?
0:45:37 > 0:45:41It is precisely described, the same number, the hell and heaven.
0:45:41 > 0:45:42So, it's fair.
0:45:42 > 0:45:46Women hanging by their breasts if they've committed adultery...
0:45:46 > 0:45:49- But also, heaven as well. - This is a misconception.
0:45:51 > 0:45:56- Adultery can be punishable for men and women.- It's not only for women.
0:45:56 > 0:45:58People are hung by...?
0:45:58 > 0:46:00It's a misconception that Islam punishes women only. It's not that.
0:46:00 > 0:46:04I'm talking about one example. Are women hung by their breasts or not?
0:46:04 > 0:46:09People can be punished differently. There are all kinds of punishment.
0:46:09 > 0:46:12- Men can be punished also. - I never said they couldn't.
0:46:12 > 0:46:13But you've got to eat devils' heads.
0:46:13 > 0:46:16It's all very graphic, very horrible. It sounds to many people like...
0:46:16 > 0:46:19But there's also a very, very pleasant life,
0:46:19 > 0:46:23- that you have rivers of wine... - Alcoholic wine?
0:46:23 > 0:46:26Alcoholic, but it will not give you the effect of alcohol.
0:46:26 > 0:46:30- So, what's the point of having it alcoholic then?- The point is... - LAUGHTER
0:46:33 > 0:46:36The point is that God, that is the concept.
0:46:36 > 0:46:39God asks you not to do something, and that's what you have done.
0:46:39 > 0:46:42All right. Can I ask you something? Can I ask you something?
0:46:42 > 0:46:48It says that you will be served by dark-eyed maidens and youths, yeah?
0:46:49 > 0:46:52Yes, people who are serving you, like a servant.
0:46:52 > 0:46:54Like anybody who is wealthy,
0:46:54 > 0:46:56and you will go on to find many people serving you.
0:46:56 > 0:46:59- So people are serving you?- Yeah. - What about them?
0:46:59 > 0:47:02Can't they enjoy the rivers of wine? Why do they have to spend their time
0:47:02 > 0:47:04serving people who are enjoying the rivers...?
0:47:04 > 0:47:06Yes, I know, but let's come back
0:47:06 > 0:47:10to why we are human beings and these are animals.
0:47:10 > 0:47:15- From an Islamic concept...- Why is it youths and dark-eyed maidens?
0:47:15 > 0:47:17I'm sorry to say it, but there's a kind of...
0:47:17 > 0:47:20There's something very seductive about that for some people,
0:47:20 > 0:47:23and again, it's playing on very earthly desires,
0:47:23 > 0:47:24if you don't mind me saying so.
0:47:25 > 0:47:29Look, God gave us the will to come into this world
0:47:29 > 0:47:33and do whatever we like, obey and disobey.
0:47:33 > 0:47:36That is the difference between us and animals and other creatures.
0:47:36 > 0:47:39They do have a soul, but their soul is different from ours.
0:47:39 > 0:47:44- And we have a higher level of soul. - I wasn't asking that.- In hell...
0:47:44 > 0:47:47I was asking about the earthly desires. It's in the Christian heaven as well.
0:47:47 > 0:47:52- Chris French, do you know what I mean? Let me move to Chris. - Well, exactly, yeah.
0:47:52 > 0:47:55Sadly, I hate to point this out, but it's beliefs like that
0:47:55 > 0:47:59that lead people to drive jet planes into skyscrapers.
0:47:59 > 0:48:03- You won't get that happening from an atheist.- Well, I mean...
0:48:03 > 0:48:05THEY ALL TALK AT ONCE
0:48:05 > 0:48:08Point of order.
0:48:08 > 0:48:12But human beings are responsible for it whatever their beliefs.
0:48:12 > 0:48:17But this whole idea of, the betrayal of heaven and hell in the terms
0:48:17 > 0:48:21which the people at which the betrayal is aimed would understand.
0:48:21 > 0:48:23Exactly. I think it goes back to the point being made over here.
0:48:23 > 0:48:26It depends on the kind of specific historical contact,
0:48:26 > 0:48:29the way that these ideas are put out.
0:48:29 > 0:48:31It's not to say that they are deliberately made up,
0:48:31 > 0:48:34but they fit their times certainly.
0:48:34 > 0:48:38So if you looked back at the way that hell was betrayed in earlier
0:48:38 > 0:48:44centuries, then it was a useful means for people to actually probably
0:48:44 > 0:48:46- avoid getting hung.- Deborah.
0:48:46 > 0:48:49I think it was brilliant that the Rabbi Pete brought up the point
0:48:49 > 0:48:52that, and that probably not a lot of people know, that many thousands
0:48:52 > 0:48:56of years before that, the Jewish religion
0:48:56 > 0:48:59- wasn't particularly preoccupied with the afterlife.- Not at all.
0:48:59 > 0:49:03It kind of happened at the same time as Christianity.
0:49:03 > 0:49:06And if you look at, say, the story of Odysseus,
0:49:06 > 0:49:09when he went and he had to seek the wisdom of Teiresias,
0:49:09 > 0:49:10who had already died.
0:49:10 > 0:49:14So, Odysseus had to go to the Underworld to speak to him,
0:49:14 > 0:49:17and he had to give him a sacrifice of blood so he could drink the
0:49:17 > 0:49:21blood, drink the life, in effect, to even be able to speak.
0:49:21 > 0:49:22Hell was a very miserable place.
0:49:22 > 0:49:24It was a very dark place full of shades,
0:49:24 > 0:49:26and they were just shuffling around.
0:49:26 > 0:49:29So you can see with each culture that their hell
0:49:29 > 0:49:30very much corresponds
0:49:30 > 0:49:33to their current ideas, as you said.
0:49:34 > 0:49:38So in our idea of heaven there would be no mobile phones?
0:49:38 > 0:49:39Something like that?
0:49:41 > 0:49:43If other images weren't too ingrained.
0:49:43 > 0:49:48What about, if I may, moving on... What about near-death experiences.
0:49:48 > 0:49:50Ken, you've looked into this, haven't you?
0:49:50 > 0:49:52- And you work in a hospital? - Indeed, yes.
0:49:52 > 0:49:54We have been conducting some research
0:49:54 > 0:49:57which is due for publication imminently.
0:49:57 > 0:50:01And it's very interesting to hear the various philosophical
0:50:01 > 0:50:05perspectives. Of course from a scientific angle
0:50:05 > 0:50:10we aren't particularly troubled by those varying views.
0:50:10 > 0:50:13What we are trying to discover, of course,
0:50:13 > 0:50:15is something about the brain
0:50:15 > 0:50:20and the mind and consciousness, with the perspective of trying to address
0:50:20 > 0:50:22some of the failures that we have.
0:50:22 > 0:50:26When we recover people from cardiac arrest there's a small
0:50:26 > 0:50:29but unfortunate percentage of those individuals who have a modicum
0:50:29 > 0:50:34of brain damage. And part of our enquiry is to try and understand
0:50:34 > 0:50:38what's going on at cellular level so that we can bring into being
0:50:38 > 0:50:40appropriate interventions,
0:50:40 > 0:50:42medical interventions, such as therapeutic...
0:50:42 > 0:50:46So what do people think is happening? Do they think they are floating above themselves?
0:50:46 > 0:50:49- What sort of things do they describe?- About one in 10 patients
0:50:49 > 0:50:55who recover are able to describe feelings of otherworldliness,
0:50:55 > 0:51:00of having a consciousness whilst they are clinically dead.
0:51:00 > 0:51:02And I'd like to make the point,
0:51:02 > 0:51:05some folks get cardiac arrest mixed up with heart attack.
0:51:05 > 0:51:09What we're talking about here are people who are dead.
0:51:09 > 0:51:11Their heart has stopped, their breathing has stopped,
0:51:11 > 0:51:14and if you measure their brain activity,
0:51:14 > 0:51:16they flatline on their brain, too.
0:51:18 > 0:51:21So unless they have an advance directive,
0:51:21 > 0:51:26such as a Do Not Attempt CPR order in their medical notes,
0:51:26 > 0:51:30- we will attempt to resuscitate.- What do they say about what has happened?
0:51:30 > 0:51:34What they say is that they have a very positive feeling,
0:51:34 > 0:51:36they feel spiritually uplifted.
0:51:36 > 0:51:41All of the people that I spoke to who gave accounts of that
0:51:41 > 0:51:43were very positive about it,
0:51:43 > 0:51:48and otherworldly is the best word I can use. They wanted to go back.
0:51:48 > 0:51:50One particular gentleman
0:51:50 > 0:51:53was absolutely desperate to go back there. He was euphoric about it.
0:51:53 > 0:51:59- Has anyone had an experience like this? You have?- Yes, I have.
0:51:59 > 0:52:01Many years ago, in my teens,
0:52:01 > 0:52:05the short version is, in my teens I had an exploded appendix.
0:52:05 > 0:52:08I went in for an operation and I remember a dream,
0:52:08 > 0:52:11a very specific dream that felt, to this day, like reality.
0:52:11 > 0:52:13If I close my eyes I can see where I was.
0:52:13 > 0:52:16I officially flatlined, I officially died.
0:52:16 > 0:52:18Somehow they managed to get me back to life.
0:52:18 > 0:52:20The dream, the short version is,
0:52:20 > 0:52:24I was in what seemed like a place that was burning, with people
0:52:24 > 0:52:27screaming, lots of faces of anger and trying to grab at me.
0:52:27 > 0:52:29And something or someone that was bright and shiny
0:52:29 > 0:52:32came towards me, held my arm.
0:52:32 > 0:52:36And I can remember these words so clearly, "Come with me."
0:52:36 > 0:52:38And I remember being taken away. I woke up.
0:52:38 > 0:52:43I do believe now, God that cares, I believe that actually happened.
0:52:43 > 0:52:46I can't explain where I was. I believe it, I really do.
0:52:46 > 0:52:49I believe for some reason I was brought back to life,
0:52:49 > 0:52:51and I realise that some of the ladies and gents on this front row
0:52:51 > 0:52:53will probably dismiss this.
0:52:53 > 0:52:55- No, but I think they believe that you believe it.- Yeah.
0:52:55 > 0:52:59- That's the key thing. - I believe it actually happened.
0:52:59 > 0:53:04- Conor. OK, Jackie.- On your studies, just looking at the evidence,
0:53:04 > 0:53:07have you had people that have flatlined
0:53:07 > 0:53:10but then actually told you what has been going on in the physical
0:53:10 > 0:53:13- round them, in the hospital, things that have happened?- Yes.- Yes?
0:53:13 > 0:53:17So how have they told you? That shows something, doesn't it?
0:53:17 > 0:53:22The very first time I encountered a patient, it was entirely unplanned.
0:53:22 > 0:53:24I went to see a gentleman
0:53:24 > 0:53:26who had been involved in quite a prolonged resuscitation.
0:53:26 > 0:53:29He had been in cardiac arrest for at least 15 minutes,
0:53:29 > 0:53:32so he was clinically dead for 15 minutes.
0:53:32 > 0:53:35And we were very pleased to have reversed that process.
0:53:35 > 0:53:38And I went to see him, one of those brief moments,
0:53:38 > 0:53:40when I had nothing better to do,
0:53:40 > 0:53:42I thought "I'll go and see this gentleman."
0:53:42 > 0:53:44As I walked towards him, and this is a long time ago now,
0:53:44 > 0:53:48he had a face on him that suggested to me that he recognised me.
0:53:48 > 0:53:52He said, "Hello, how are you?" And he was very familiar.
0:53:52 > 0:53:55And I said to him, "I get a sense you know me."
0:53:55 > 0:54:00And he said, "Yes, I saw you at my resuscitation."
0:54:00 > 0:54:04And he described in very great detail the whole processes that were
0:54:04 > 0:54:05- going on around him.- Absolutely.
0:54:05 > 0:54:09And he can't have got that information from watching television
0:54:09 > 0:54:13because on television it's largely inaccurate.
0:54:13 > 0:54:20- Well done, thank you. - Who wants to go first? Deborah?
0:54:20 > 0:54:23It's interesting, the definition of death,
0:54:23 > 0:54:25and that's exactly what it is. It's a definition.
0:54:25 > 0:54:28Who knows what it is? It might be a semantic thing.
0:54:28 > 0:54:31It doesn't necessarily mean there is an activity we can't detect.
0:54:31 > 0:54:34Also, to get a good, statistical analysis of that you would have
0:54:34 > 0:54:36to get all of the false positives.
0:54:36 > 0:54:38You would take loads of stories
0:54:38 > 0:54:41and see which ones of them actually didn't happen, where they thought
0:54:41 > 0:54:44something happened in the operating theatre where it didn't.
0:54:44 > 0:54:47And third of all, even if you have very, very...
0:54:47 > 0:54:50You might not have sight, but if you have something like a sound,
0:54:50 > 0:54:52you can make a story from all sorts of clatterings.
0:54:52 > 0:54:58There was one I read on Pim Van Lommel's paper where
0:54:58 > 0:55:01somebody had had their teeth taken out and they were put into a drawer.
0:55:01 > 0:55:04If you can feel your teeth being taken out, you can hear
0:55:04 > 0:55:06a drawer being opened and you can hear a drawer being closed,
0:55:06 > 0:55:09it's reasonable for him to have then
0:55:09 > 0:55:11retroactively made up a story that then fits that.
0:55:11 > 0:55:14Chris, what about this feeling of euphoria?
0:55:14 > 0:55:18Could that be a biochemical... I don't know? Chris French?
0:55:18 > 0:55:20Yes, it absolutely could be.
0:55:20 > 0:55:23Whenever there's kind of physical, or even psychological stress,
0:55:23 > 0:55:25then the body releases natural...
0:55:25 > 0:55:27Whether you believe in that, it's quite reassuring to know
0:55:27 > 0:55:31- that when that point comes we're going to feel...- It is.
0:55:31 > 0:55:33I'm sure Ken will back this up, there is a minority
0:55:33 > 0:55:36- of people with negative near-death experiences.- Very few, yes.
0:55:36 > 0:55:39But it does happen. Like this gentleman described at the beginning,
0:55:39 > 0:55:41some people don't get that happy ending. I'm very glad you did.
0:55:41 > 0:55:46Thanks for your contribution, by the way. It's good to see you here.
0:55:46 > 0:55:50But all of the different components of the near-death experience
0:55:50 > 0:55:52do occur in other contexts,
0:55:52 > 0:55:55where we can have a better idea of what's going on in the brain.
0:55:55 > 0:55:57Essentially, it's this question of, is it a very rich,
0:55:57 > 0:56:00very profound but hallucinatory experience?
0:56:00 > 0:56:02One of the things that always occurs to me,
0:56:02 > 0:56:05we've heard this story of this kid Colton who went up
0:56:05 > 0:56:09and saw Jesus and a coloured pony, and Mary and Joseph.
0:56:09 > 0:56:12Suppose he'd been a Jew? He'd have said, who are these people?
0:56:12 > 0:56:14He'd have been in for a shock.
0:56:14 > 0:56:18The point is, everybody has their own experiences,
0:56:18 > 0:56:21or life-after-death stories coming from a particular cultural place.
0:56:21 > 0:56:24You have particular cultural references with death as well.
0:56:24 > 0:56:27Sorry, you had your hand up earlier. A quick point.
0:56:27 > 0:56:32So, when you die, it's not just... you stop. There's still blood,
0:56:32 > 0:56:35there's still oxygen going in your brain.
0:56:35 > 0:56:39What if these experiences are things like your temporal lobes,
0:56:39 > 0:56:42which deal with memory? What if that's the connections dying,
0:56:42 > 0:56:44and you're remembering things?
0:56:44 > 0:56:47And that's the explanation, and it's hormones that give you
0:56:47 > 0:56:50this euphoria, and it's actually quite a natural, nice death?
0:56:50 > 0:56:53Yeah, that's what we're kind of saying. Venerable Choesang,
0:56:53 > 0:56:55Nirvana, let me move on to Nirvana as we move to the end.
0:56:55 > 0:57:00Bliss, you reach this state of bliss. It's quite nice being alive.
0:57:00 > 0:57:02It can be great being alive.
0:57:02 > 0:57:04Why do we want to have this state of sort of floatiness?
0:57:04 > 0:57:06Well, there's a misunderstanding.
0:57:06 > 0:57:08Nirvana is actually living with equanimity,
0:57:08 > 0:57:10and it can be in this very lifetime.
0:57:10 > 0:57:12OK.
0:57:12 > 0:57:14Whereas Buddhahood and Nirvana are different places,
0:57:14 > 0:57:18and Buddhahood is when you go out as an energy being after a death,
0:57:18 > 0:57:20and you don't have to be reincarnated.
0:57:20 > 0:57:24You can come back if you wish, but you don't have to.
0:57:24 > 0:57:25You are free from birth?
0:57:25 > 0:57:29Yes, free from a gross birth that we experience.
0:57:29 > 0:57:32And they can actually be out there at one with all the energy,
0:57:32 > 0:57:35and work at an energetic level.
0:57:35 > 0:57:37And same from what others were saying earlier.
0:57:37 > 0:57:39If you're at an energetic level,
0:57:39 > 0:57:42we don't use all the concepts that we have here in a body.
0:57:42 > 0:57:46We can see and hear and think it's kinesiology,
0:57:46 > 0:57:51it's all totally different. It all comes in a completely different way.
0:57:51 > 0:57:53We have a framework of how we discuss it now,
0:57:53 > 0:57:55but it wouldn't be the same framework
0:57:55 > 0:57:59that we would use for that particular experience.
0:57:59 > 0:58:02- Well, that was...- Can I...? - No, we're finished. We're over.
0:58:02 > 0:58:05No, we've reached the point of Nirvana.
0:58:05 > 0:58:08Thank you all very much indeed for your contributions.
0:58:08 > 0:58:11As ever, the debate will continue on Twitter and online.
0:58:11 > 0:58:13We're not on next week because of Whitsun,
0:58:13 > 0:58:17but we'll be back from Brighton on June 15 for the last show
0:58:17 > 0:58:19of this series, so, don't miss that.
0:58:19 > 0:58:21For now, it's goodbye from everyone here in Walsall.
0:58:21 > 0:58:23Have a really, really good Sunday.
0:58:23 > 0:58:25Thanks for watching The Big Questions.