:00:00. > :00:23.Should the British stop tolerating intolerance?
:00:24. > :00:26.Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions.
:00:27. > :00:31.We're at Patcham High School in Brighton to debate one very
:00:32. > :00:44.Should the British stop tolerating intolerance?
:00:45. > :00:47.This week's Ofsted report on the alleged Trojan Horse takeover by
:00:48. > :00:51.Muslim fundamentalists of certain primary and secondary schools in
:00:52. > :00:54.Birmingham caused widespread alarm that children in secular state
:00:55. > :00:57.schools are being given a faith-based education
:00:58. > :01:00.which does not adhere to modern values and freedoms.
:01:01. > :01:09.More inquiries have yet to report, but it's clear the
:01:10. > :01:18.David Cameron said we are giving a dangerous message.
:01:19. > :01:20.Every British citizen has freedom of faith.
:01:21. > :01:22.We all have freedom of speech as well.
:01:23. > :01:24.And today of all days, the 799th anniversary of the signing
:01:25. > :01:27.of the Magna Carta, we should remember it gave everyone the
:01:28. > :01:31.freedom to go about their business subject to the laws of the land.
:01:32. > :01:35.So, being British requires us to tolerate the ideas and actions
:01:36. > :01:38.of others that we might personally find objectionable,
:01:39. > :01:43.To debate this clash between our own beliefs and the duty to tolerate
:01:44. > :01:46.other's freedoms to think and act very differently, we have assembled
:01:47. > :01:55.a spectrum of political thinkers and commentators, a diversity of faith
:01:56. > :01:57.leaders and a medley of believers and sceptics.
:01:58. > :01:59.You can join in too, via Twitter or online.
:02:00. > :02:00.Just log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions
:02:01. > :02:04.and follow the links to where you can continue the discussion online.
:02:05. > :02:06.And there'll be lots of encouragement and contributions from
:02:07. > :02:19.Should the British stop tolerating intolerance?
:02:20. > :02:26.There is a massive political row about Michael Gove, government
:02:27. > :02:33.agendas, political interference, Ofsted, if we can talk about the
:02:34. > :02:41.general issue, it looks like there are issues, this has been going on a
:02:42. > :02:47.while, it was a private school, but in 2007 a London school had talks
:02:48. > :02:53.describing Christians as apes and pigs. One school in Luton had books
:02:54. > :02:59.which raised individuals who loved death more than life in pursuit of
:03:00. > :03:04.their religion. Then, this radical preacher, some controversial views,
:03:05. > :03:09.being invited to lecture in a state school. Do these things trouble
:03:10. > :03:14.you? Of course, we should be teaching our children universal
:03:15. > :03:20.values, what the true faith teaches, to do with respect, acceptance of
:03:21. > :03:26.others, to be conscientious citizens, to be good to God. We
:03:27. > :03:35.should be teaching models across the board. It makes you who you are. As
:03:36. > :03:39.a believer, we are hard-wired to believe in God. If somebody does not
:03:40. > :03:46.believe that, that is OK, I respect their view. I have two kids, I do
:03:47. > :03:50.not send them to state school at the moment, we have been home-schooling
:03:51. > :03:56.them, because our education system is failing our kids. By putting them
:03:57. > :04:02.all in one school, giving them one set of curriculum to be taught, it
:04:03. > :04:05.creates the ready meal style education programme. It does not
:04:06. > :04:12.nurture the innate goodness of children, my kids speak four
:04:13. > :04:20.languages fluently. How and why have these ideas crept into schooling? Is
:04:21. > :04:23.a government, they have failed miserably in providing a clear
:04:24. > :04:27.framework for ethical teaching. If you look at how the system is
:04:28. > :04:33.divided, between private schools, grammar schools and state schools.
:04:34. > :04:38.Why should the state school be left to rot? Why should they not have the
:04:39. > :04:43.same funding? Why should we not invest in good schools, good
:04:44. > :04:50.teachers and a good environment? Let's take it away from education.
:04:51. > :04:56.On the subject of these views, surely schools should reflect the
:04:57. > :05:00.areas in which they are operating in the communities in which they are
:05:01. > :05:05.serving? If you have a community which is 95% Muslim, surely that
:05:06. > :05:09.should be the focus of the school? That sounds like a Michael Gove
:05:10. > :05:17.idea. Put aside what his ideas are, I believe in religious neutral
:05:18. > :05:22.politics, despite a school in 98% Christian or Muslim, is if it is a
:05:23. > :05:31.state school in a secular country such as Britain, it must not be
:05:32. > :05:36.endorsing any form of religion. Though I agree with his critique of
:05:37. > :05:41.the education system, where I would disagree is that schools do not have
:05:42. > :05:46.any business teaching God consciousness, that is for the
:05:47. > :05:55.parents to do. It is not the school's job. What has been going
:05:56. > :06:04.on? People have been mixing, including Muslims, two issues,
:06:05. > :06:10.social conservativism, and it is no body's business how socially
:06:11. > :06:15.conservative somebody is, but when you impose that on an institution,
:06:16. > :06:19.the imposition of it is extremism, and that is what is being objected
:06:20. > :06:30.to. Nobody cares if somebody covers their hair, grows a beard, and if
:06:31. > :06:37.they do, they are wrong. What about this row about this extremist who
:06:38. > :06:43.said some disgusting things about stoning people and death for
:06:44. > :06:49.apostate? He was not saying that in the school. You are a liberal, he
:06:50. > :06:53.was not talking about those things in a school, he was doing a lecture
:06:54. > :06:58.on religion. You should support his right to do that. I support the
:06:59. > :07:02.legal right for him to speak, even if I disagree with those views, just
:07:03. > :07:09.as if he was saying racist or homophobic bigotry. That does not
:07:10. > :07:14.mean I tolerated in civil society, it means I challenge it, just as I
:07:15. > :07:19.would challenge racism or homophobia or anti-Semitism. I do not put that
:07:20. > :07:56.person in prison, school to have him there? Schools
:07:57. > :08:00.should be getting the people who speak to children much more closely.
:08:01. > :08:06.But I take issue with the idea that this reflects on a radicalisation,
:08:07. > :08:10.because of some overzealous governors wanting to impose social
:08:11. > :08:15.conservative moors on a school. The problem is that this government and
:08:16. > :08:19.the government before it have allowed schools to develop a much
:08:20. > :08:24.more independent ethos, allowing academies and free schools to give
:08:25. > :08:30.governors a much greater say in how schools are run, in the ethos of how
:08:31. > :08:34.the curriculum is defined. In doing so, it is same two communities, you
:08:35. > :08:38.can define your local ethos according to your views, but when it
:08:39. > :08:44.does not like the way in which communities form their
:08:45. > :08:51.curriculum... It is the principles of Michael Gove. This government is
:08:52. > :08:54.playing doublespeak, it cannot talk about the issue of cultural
:08:55. > :09:00.isolation and support faith schools. Faith schools develop all sorts of
:09:01. > :09:04.forms of cultural isolation. To suggest that as a form of extremism
:09:05. > :09:05.suggests the government is supporting extremism in faith
:09:06. > :09:46.schools. Bizarrely, education... That is what is needed.
:09:47. > :09:49.By whom is it needed? As it happens, there are a lot of conservative
:09:50. > :09:59.Christians in this country who object to the way... P to make his
:10:00. > :10:02.point. They object to the way in which Christianity has been stripped
:10:03. > :10:07.out of the school system, despite the fact it is supposed to be in the
:10:08. > :10:12.system following the education act. It is a legal requirement.
:10:13. > :10:17.Secularists quietly and unlawfully have removed Christianity from our
:10:18. > :10:23.schools. We are a spiritual desert as a country, any kind of
:10:24. > :10:27.Conservative religious opinion is constantly sneered at by people such
:10:28. > :10:32.as this gentleman is being extremist or otherwise unacceptable. Extremist
:10:33. > :10:45.means nothing, it means an unfashionable opinion. Let me come
:10:46. > :10:47.back to Kevin. It does not surprise me
:10:48. > :10:52.back to Kevin. It does not surprise being marginalised or not given the
:10:53. > :10:57.status that they want to have, because they should not have that
:10:58. > :11:02.status. Forgetting about the Muslim issue, in Britain there are schools
:11:03. > :11:06.who will open and teach their children about creationism, that
:11:07. > :11:14.evolution is a light and conspiracy. That is nonsense. I am funding that
:11:15. > :11:19.is a taxpayer. That get back to the issue of the alleged extremism that
:11:20. > :11:26.has been going on. Not the Trojan horse context, we do not want to
:11:27. > :11:32.conflate two issues. 95% of children in a particular area of the Muslim
:11:33. > :11:36.faith, you were complaining in your article that in one primary school
:11:37. > :11:41.music was banned, but raffles and Tom Bonas were banned, do you want
:11:42. > :11:50.to encourage Muslim children to gamble? What is your problem? Should
:11:51. > :11:57.reflect the nature of the school? Gambling seems wrong. We are in the
:11:58. > :11:59.middle of a debate, the nation is going through some very substantial
:12:00. > :12:05.change. What we have been going through some very substantial
:12:06. > :12:10.reflect this. Until recently, going through some very substantial
:12:11. > :12:14.said two people -- going through some very substantial
:12:15. > :12:20.people, what are British values, you would have got a fairly clear reply
:12:21. > :12:23.along the lines of, a Protestant Christian country, we have
:12:24. > :12:26.institutions of the state and the monarchy and so one. As one of the
:12:27. > :12:29.results of the monarchy and so one. As one of the
:12:30. > :12:34.there has been a substantial change, good things have come from that, and
:12:35. > :12:40.some negatives. One thing is this confusion about what we are. We want
:12:41. > :12:44.to be open and tolerant, we want people to be able to practice their
:12:45. > :12:50.faith, and live their lives. What we are finding it hard to do is to work
:12:51. > :12:56.out where our lines are drawn, because they are not clear. It may
:12:57. > :13:03.prove impossible, it maybe we something like France did and try to
:13:04. > :13:13.draw clear lines. There is a problem with some schools, state secular
:13:14. > :13:17.schools... The problems exposed in the report are pretty serious, and
:13:18. > :13:24.there is more to come. What is so serious in the report? These
:13:25. > :13:28.children are at risk of cultural isolation, there have been findings
:13:29. > :13:37.of children being taught to chant anti-Christian chants. It is
:13:38. > :13:44.unpleasant sectarian stuff. None of the pupils were spoken to during the
:13:45. > :13:51.investigation. The teachers were not spoken to either. We have a timidity
:13:52. > :13:58.who live in an isolated way -- we have a community. I have no problem
:13:59. > :14:03.with that if that is what they want to do. We do not create a fuss over
:14:04. > :14:12.their community living in that way. Why cause a fuss over a report that
:14:13. > :14:19.was made out of a hoax letter... You acknowledge there are issues. You
:14:20. > :14:27.are talking about faith schools, we are talking about state schools.
:14:28. > :14:33.That is the first thing. The second thing is, what should be taught in
:14:34. > :14:37.schools? You should be teaching about religions. That does not mean,
:14:38. > :15:20.you have to believe, but if we do not know what other people believe,
:15:21. > :15:27.worry! You cannot force people to believe things. You cannot shoehorn
:15:28. > :15:41.people in a particularly shaped Britishness. Know. And very
:15:42. > :15:48.quickly, the dimension one of the interesting things that has come out
:15:49. > :15:51.from this Trojan horse thing, a lot of Muslim groups have been furious
:15:52. > :15:57.about these revelations and are denying them. This has happened in
:15:58. > :16:01.the Catholic Church over the paedophilia scandal. People do not
:16:02. > :16:10.want dirty laundry aired in public. Publicly wrong. That is why there is
:16:11. > :16:16.this denial. This report found some disturbing things. This is the same
:16:17. > :16:20.report from the man who did a U-turn on what God did or did not tell him?
:16:21. > :16:24.Do you think this has been made up? Actually, there are serious
:16:25. > :16:28.governance issues and there have been internal administrative issues.
:16:29. > :16:32.Whether it is issues of extremism, which is what you are battling and
:16:33. > :16:36.the publication you work for is peddling by publishing one of the
:16:37. > :16:40.worst covers that I have ever seen in this country, suggesting that
:16:41. > :16:47.young children are vehicles for extremism and terrorism. You should
:16:48. > :16:52.be ashamed to be behind that. This is a very good example of the
:16:53. > :16:58.problem. Miriam, you are a very prominent spokesperson, a prominent
:16:59. > :17:02.convert to Islam. I do not call myself a convert. What ever you want
:17:03. > :17:06.to go yourself, you have a voice. Here are the problems that have been
:17:07. > :17:10.exposed in schools that seemed to be teaching seriously unpleasant things
:17:11. > :17:17.and being taught by extremist Muslims. Why in this debate do you
:17:18. > :17:28.deny this is going on? And secondly, the problem is the Spectator cover
:17:29. > :17:32.cartoon? Miriam, respond to that? You are suggesting that you are
:17:33. > :17:37.supporting the Michael Gove agenda, which says that there are issues in
:17:38. > :17:40.the schools. And everyone, including the school campaign in Birmingham
:17:41. > :17:42.and others have acknowledged that certain people should stand down as
:17:43. > :17:48.a consequence of some of these revelations. The issue, however, is
:17:49. > :17:53.trying to rebrand this as an issue of extremism in order to expand this
:17:54. > :17:59.idea of extremism being non-violent ideas. Nick Griffin, if he had been
:18:00. > :18:05.asked to come along and speak in this school... You would be...
:18:06. > :18:13.Neither of the equivalence of these two were asked. His views are worse.
:18:14. > :18:17.Anyone who supports Al-Qaeda in public or the ideology of Al-Qaeda,
:18:18. > :18:24.anyone who supports... Who says that? He should not be invited to
:18:25. > :18:30.address schools. Are you defending him? One at a time. You are saying
:18:31. > :18:33.he is not as bad as Nick Griffin? You cannot compare the people
:18:34. > :18:40.speaking in these schools. Let me finish my point. Please let me
:18:41. > :18:43.finish my point. Allow me to speak. Anyone who believes installing
:18:44. > :18:48.people to death, Nick Griffin has reprehensible views but he does not
:18:49. > :18:52.believe that an adulterer should be stoned to death. Anybody who does
:18:53. > :19:01.should not be invited to a school. And nor should... Wait, wait. Next
:19:02. > :19:06.on the list is Dan Hannan. Not yet, please. There are a lot of people to
:19:07. > :19:10.talk to. If we can agree that Nick Griffin should not be invited to
:19:11. > :19:15.speak to children? Of course he shouldn't. Can I finish? If we agree
:19:16. > :19:19.that, by application we should also agree that anyone who believes in
:19:20. > :19:24.ideas more reprehensible should not be invited to speak at schools. It
:19:25. > :19:29.is a moot point. It should not even be a debate. The fact that we are
:19:30. > :19:36.defensive about that is illustrative of the problem. Nobody is defensive
:19:37. > :19:40.about it. Daniel Hannon is next. I want to bring it back and I think
:19:41. > :19:43.with future respect, you have both dealt with that issue and we're
:19:44. > :19:49.going to park it for now. Daniel Hannon, MEP, we saw recently a
:19:50. > :19:54.certain swing in a certain way at the European elections. And a
:19:55. > :19:59.discomfort about certain things that are happening. But this is the crux
:20:00. > :20:08.in this debate. We do we draw the line about in -- tolerating
:20:09. > :20:12.intolerance. You tolerate object your behaviour to the point of
:20:13. > :20:15.incitement. You tolerate eccentricity up to the point of
:20:16. > :20:19.madness, offensiveness up to the point of harassment. Toleration
:20:20. > :20:26.means you tolerate it. You tolerate things that you find utterly
:20:27. > :20:32.appalling. British values? What are they? Today is the 799th anniversary
:20:33. > :20:37.of the signing of Magna Carta. You could do worse than the spare
:20:38. > :20:42.inscription that appears on that memorial in Runnymede. Freedom under
:20:43. > :20:48.all. If you wanted to distil British values into one phrase, and in that
:20:49. > :20:52.phrase is incorporated all the things that through the years made
:20:53. > :21:00.this country a better place to live that than the authoritarian
:21:01. > :21:07.alternatives. It implies a regular election, uncensored newspapers,
:21:08. > :21:11.sexual equality, free assembly. So where there is not equality between
:21:12. > :21:15.the sexes and we have segregation, whether it is going on or not in
:21:16. > :21:18.public places, and people's belief that they should be modesty and some
:21:19. > :21:26.form of separation, we hear that from the authoritarian right --
:21:27. > :21:28.right wing groups. How do we clamp down on that? You tolerate those
:21:29. > :21:33.views. Tolerating them is down on that? You tolerate those
:21:34. > :21:38.same as teaching them in school. Every child born in this country,
:21:39. > :21:41.where ever his parents came from is the heir to that same birthright
:21:42. > :21:46.that began with the great Charter 800 years ago. And we cannot allow
:21:47. > :21:51.our own sons and daughters in this country, whatever their parents came
:21:52. > :21:56.from, to be denied a portion of that as a free society. That should go
:21:57. > :21:59.without saying. Of course, once people have left school, they can
:22:00. > :22:00.have whatever eccentric opinions they want but teaching people that
:22:01. > :22:05.they are not just a they want but teaching people that
:22:06. > :22:06.collection of individuals born to a different random collection of
:22:07. > :22:09.individuals, that we different random collection of
:22:10. > :22:13.together regardless of creed and race, that we have a British
:22:14. > :22:17.identity and are connected to another, that is something that
:22:18. > :22:23.should go for all our children. Liberalism with a small L.
:22:24. > :22:30.Peter Hitchens, is that something we should fight for, to democratically
:22:31. > :22:34.achieve the reality of liberalism? It is fascinating the way his
:22:35. > :22:40.British values merchants are so coy about the real basis of the lunacy
:22:41. > :22:45.which we enjoy, which is the form of Protestant Crips T and at which this
:22:46. > :22:50.country adopted, which created the self restraint and strong belief
:22:51. > :22:56.that law should be above power, because more derives from God, that
:22:57. > :23:00.is what makes this country but they will not talk about it because many
:23:01. > :23:07.of them are not Christians. They do not really believe these things.
:23:08. > :23:12.That is what made us what we are. To try to generalise this into some
:23:13. > :23:13.kind of human rights blancmange is to make a fundamental mistake about
:23:14. > :23:22.how it came about to make a fundamental mistake about
:23:23. > :23:24.need to defend... That is not true. I do not
:23:25. > :23:25.need to defend... That is not true. people who make the loudest noise
:23:26. > :23:29.about people who make the loudest noise
:23:30. > :23:33.want to preserve it because many of them are allied with the principle
:23:34. > :23:36.political lobby which has undermined its
:23:37. > :23:39.political lobby which has undermined of open borders and mass
:23:40. > :23:46.immigration, which has made it so difficult to sustain this country.
:23:47. > :23:50.They were with you, Peter. But they have fallen out with you. Daniel
:23:51. > :23:56.Hannon... That is just false history. It is true that a measure
:23:57. > :24:01.of our individualistic culture can be said to have a Protestant basis.
:24:02. > :24:05.Why do you think that was aimed at you? I don't think it was. It was.
:24:06. > :24:10.Look at the phrase that appears in the charter. The law of the land.
:24:11. > :24:15.Not the Kings Law or gods law, but a law that was imminent in the people
:24:16. > :24:20.and the territory, that was the genius of the country. And that has
:24:21. > :24:23.been our greatest export. The idea that the law is above the
:24:24. > :24:28.government, the biggest guy in the country does not get to tell the
:24:29. > :24:34.other people what to do, he is bound by something bigger than him, that
:24:35. > :24:42.is the law inherent in all of us. Not a single person present at
:24:43. > :24:51.Runnymede 799 years ago did not believe in the Christian God. How do
:24:52. > :24:54.you know? That is nonsense. Atlanta's been waiting. Don't worry.
:24:55. > :25:04.This is one debate in an entire hour. Adnan Rashid. Should we not be
:25:05. > :25:10.really careful about what we teach our children? Should we be teaching
:25:11. > :25:16.all children the great literature of Romeo and Juliet, the Shakespearean
:25:17. > :25:20.plays? Otherwise, they are disconnected from the rest of our
:25:21. > :25:27.culture and they need more cultural enrichment and just a sacred text.
:25:28. > :25:30.Do you not agree? 100%. We must teach our children how to live in
:25:31. > :25:35.this world. This is a complex multicultural world and we live in
:25:36. > :25:38.it as a family. This is a perfect demonstration of a family. We are
:25:39. > :25:43.all a family but we disagree with each other. A dysfunctional family!
:25:44. > :25:51.Sometimes severely. I find some of the views here very objectionable.
:25:52. > :25:56.Which ones? He is attacking Muslims for believing in things that Jews
:25:57. > :26:00.believed in. There are Jewish rabbis that believe in the same things that
:26:01. > :26:05.the sheik who came to lecture at the school believed in. I'll want to ask
:26:06. > :26:12.you, do you see anything wrong with Jewish rabbis? Do you see anything
:26:13. > :26:25.wrong with them? Exactly! Let him answer. That was a big question! A
:26:26. > :26:34.big answer. So the Jews can believe in the Taarabt? -- Taira? What
:26:35. > :26:45.aspect of Muslim belief did he decry? Everything he picks on in the
:26:46. > :26:54.Muslim belief is believed by the Jews. The Jews believe in the
:26:55. > :27:05.Taarabt and the -- believe in the Torah. I'd challenge her to come out
:27:06. > :27:08.in public to condemn the Jews for believing in the same things. I do
:27:09. > :27:11.not want him to do that and I'd defend the rights of the Jews to
:27:12. > :27:17.believe in things they want to believe in. In a second, Laura. But
:27:18. > :27:28.on this particular issue, I saw you on Newsnight the other night with a
:27:29. > :27:31.gentleman who refused to, and a lot of people who do not understand the
:27:32. > :27:34.complicity is of the ultimate aspiration of the Islamic state and
:27:35. > :27:39.sharia law would have been aghast at his refusal to condemn stoning. What
:27:40. > :27:44.is that about? I think they understand what is going on. Do you
:27:45. > :27:52.understand the question? I think I do. The old Testament mentions
:27:53. > :27:57.storming and I'd condemned on Newsnight a chap for not condemning
:27:58. > :28:03.stoning women. If you are an atheist or Jewish or Christian or Muslim, if
:28:04. > :28:06.you are a horse, and you call for stoning women to death, I will
:28:07. > :28:14.challenge you and condemn you. I do not care what your religion is,
:28:15. > :28:31.frankly. And I'd agree. I agree with him. You asked him a question. Why
:28:32. > :28:38.do you not ask him the key question here? We could ask about stoning,
:28:39. > :28:42.because I'm not sure what you are taking issue with, Adnan Rashid. My
:28:43. > :28:48.take is Islam's take. If in an Islamic state, under sharia
:28:49. > :28:53.conditions, in principle I would condemn stoning a woman to death. Do
:28:54. > :29:03.you, with sharia conditions present, condemn stoning women who are
:29:04. > :29:12.idolatrous? -- adulterous? There is no yes or no. Can I ask him and a
:29:13. > :29:20.question? Why is there no yes no no. Answer to his question. -- eye and
:29:21. > :29:28.showed his question. Wait, wait... Are you answering yes or no? There
:29:29. > :29:34.is no yes or no. I find what you say extremely distasteful. The tone you
:29:35. > :29:46.have used about the Jews and Jewish rabbis, the stoning, it is
:29:47. > :29:52.incredibly distasteful. I defend the rights of the Jews to believe what
:29:53. > :29:56.they want to believe in. I would find it uncomfortable if you started
:29:57. > :30:03.defending me, because I would find it untrustworthy after what you
:30:04. > :30:10.said. Anybody who uses text to defend violence, stoning, is wrong.
:30:11. > :30:14.If there is a faith school or a state school that is teaching it, I
:30:15. > :30:19.object to bit, because I believe in the role of the land, and schools
:30:20. > :30:26.are there to teach, they do need supervision, the government should
:30:27. > :30:29.not get rid of their responsibilities by handing these
:30:30. > :30:41.things over, and any violence from whoever, from whatever type of
:30:42. > :30:45.faith, should be condemned. Sorry I have wasted so long before I have
:30:46. > :30:52.come to do! You are an educational social worker. You understand this
:30:53. > :30:58.area. It is not so much what people believe, it is the fact of imposing
:30:59. > :31:02.those beliefs on children who have not yet had the chance to make an
:31:03. > :31:09.informed decision. Absolutely, that is what makes it difficult. If
:31:10. > :31:12.professional teachers can do their job properly, their job is found
:31:13. > :31:17.equipping young people to make informed choices about what is being
:31:18. > :31:22.said and the speaker. If we do not teach about a multiplicity of faith
:31:23. > :31:29.is in schools, it is uncomfortable, it will involve them hearing things
:31:30. > :31:32.that I do not agree with, but if we do not equip them to make
:31:33. > :31:37.judgements, they will be badly let down. It is about allowing teachers
:31:38. > :31:43.to do their jobs properly. Talking about Birmingham, in a previous role
:31:44. > :31:51.I had, I visited a Catholic run people referral unit, which was
:31:52. > :31:56.doing good things with pupils who were struggling in the educational
:31:57. > :32:03.system, and the leader said, I can stand in front of them and say, as a
:32:04. > :32:07.Catholic, I believe those things. I believe I am loved by God
:32:08. > :32:13.unconditionally, and as a Catholic, I can say that, and in schools
:32:14. > :32:24.today, people are afraid to say that. I heard tell of one particular
:32:25. > :32:30.catholic school, they were telling five-year-olds about burning in
:32:31. > :32:33.hell. You do not need to be a Catholic or a Christian, you just
:32:34. > :32:41.need to be a sentience human being to find that unacceptable. Why we
:32:42. > :32:46.seem to think that this is something that is happening to other people,
:32:47. > :32:52.that it is only Muslim schools, we have to turn the light on ourselves
:32:53. > :32:57.and say, as Christians, we have some shady parts of our own past around
:32:58. > :33:02.extremism and views that people find unacceptable, I do not understand
:33:03. > :33:10.why we associate -- disassociate ourselves from that. It ill behoves
:33:11. > :33:17.any of us to make judgements about that being the sole was possibility
:33:18. > :33:23.of the Muslim immunity -- community. The single most disturbing thing I
:33:24. > :33:28.have heard was how, in a conversation about who is and isn't
:33:29. > :33:34.allowed into secular schools, we got into the Jews. How did that happen?
:33:35. > :33:38.Travelling around the world, I have got that in other countries, it is
:33:39. > :33:44.not something I expected to hear in a conversation in this country on
:33:45. > :33:51.television. I find that chilling. One thing that I strongly agree
:33:52. > :33:53.with, we are not talking about a faith community, we are talking
:33:54. > :33:59.about bad behaviour by some individuals. I have been elected for
:34:00. > :34:05.15 years, I have Muslim constituents, a number of them have
:34:06. > :34:09.got themselves elected, the new leader of the Conservative group in
:34:10. > :34:17.the European Parliament is a fairly devout believing Muslim, he keeps
:34:18. > :34:23.the fast. But being British, he hates talking about his faith, but
:34:24. > :34:27.in a quiet way, he has done his best to live is a good Muslim. The
:34:28. > :34:33.difference between him and Adnan Rashid, he has got himself elected
:34:34. > :34:36.to something, and he is more representative of the British
:34:37. > :34:39.Muslims I have in my constituency than people who have not taken the
:34:40. > :34:45.trouble to get a mandate in the ballot box for any of their
:34:46. > :34:50.opinions. I stood in the last parliamentary election. I believe in
:34:51. > :34:58.the democratic process as a way to put our interests, the interests of
:34:59. > :35:07.the community first. I heard people say, those Muslims, the Muslims.
:35:08. > :35:15.This fashionable word, disgusting word, you can attack the Muslims,
:35:16. > :35:21.the culture is becoming the problem. It had become fashionable to talk
:35:22. > :35:26.against the Muslims. It is becoming worse day by day. I went to
:35:27. > :35:32.Birmingham the other day, I spoke to some parents and some teachers and
:35:33. > :35:37.some pupils, they all said, we are scared of being Muslims. That is a
:35:38. > :35:41.terrible state of play. We do not want to do that any longer. We want
:35:42. > :35:46.to create a society where we all feel respected. Islam has a
:35:47. > :35:51.contribution to make. If it was not for the Muslims to translate the
:35:52. > :35:58.Greek into Latin, we would not see the industrial world today. We need
:35:59. > :36:04.to create an inclusive society and not preach this hatred that is
:36:05. > :36:06.dominating our discourse. We had 400,000 Muslim soldiers who came and
:36:07. > :36:11.fought in this country for our values in the First World War, more
:36:12. > :36:17.in the Second World War, they came as volunteers, to take up arms for a
:36:18. > :36:25.country on which they have never set eyes, because they felt our values
:36:26. > :36:34.were better than the alternative. Our values? We both live in this
:36:35. > :36:42.country. Michael Gove excludes everybody else. He identifies Islam
:36:43. > :36:51.as the poisonous, pernicious religion that needs to be fought at
:36:52. > :36:57.all costs. You have made an elision between Islam and terrorism. That is
:36:58. > :37:02.what Michael Gove is doing. We need to talk about British values with a
:37:03. > :37:08.bigger agenda, how we can create an inclusive society where Muslims, the
:37:09. > :37:20.Jewish community, Hindus, Sikhs, people with no faith, have a stake.
:37:21. > :37:29.Gentleman, let's hear from your constituents, you stud as a Liberal
:37:30. > :37:39.Democrat. You are all for democracy. The gentleman at the back. To be
:37:40. > :37:43.British is an idea of freedom, united our country, the
:37:44. > :37:47.Commonwealth, the English people, and it is enshrined in John Stuart
:37:48. > :37:51.Mill, everybody can practice their happy life, but when it takes away
:37:52. > :37:55.the freedom from other people to practice their happy life, that is
:37:56. > :37:59.why the British state has to be strong in mediating boundaries. I
:38:00. > :38:06.defend everyone's right to practice their religion in any interpretation
:38:07. > :38:09.they choose if that is an extreme interpretation, but they do not have
:38:10. > :38:15.the right to stop a citizen criticising religions, writing
:38:16. > :38:21.books, making films. The British state has to be really strong to
:38:22. > :38:44.find the boundaries. That is a really good definition,
:38:45. > :38:52.the most godless city in England. The most godless city? Apart from
:38:53. > :38:57.Barnsley. This is important, we have one of the highest rate of young
:38:58. > :39:03.people's suicide. Is that because it is godless? You mentioned the word
:39:04. > :39:09.allegedly, if we are debating that, we ought to look at where our feet
:39:10. > :39:13.are. When two people in a family are having a row, the children suffer.
:39:14. > :39:17.When two neighbours are having a row, the streets offers. When the
:39:18. > :39:23.street is having a row, the community suffers. We are looking at
:39:24. > :39:28.an elephant in the room. If we keep talking about Muslims in
:39:29. > :39:33.Birmingham, we are missing the point that children on our own doorsteps
:39:34. > :39:37.are dying, suffering from mental illness, and poverty is the root
:39:38. > :39:42.cause of this. The media are looking to sell more newspapers, and how
:39:43. > :39:47.exciting is it to keep commenting on what one person has said, talking
:39:48. > :39:54.about something that everybody is going to disagree with. I would not
:39:55. > :40:00.have the faintest idea whether Brighton was or wasn't a godless
:40:01. > :40:03.city. How do the people in Brighton relate to each other? Might
:40:04. > :40:09.experience of visiting Brighton fairly regularly is it is a great
:40:10. > :40:13.place to visit, I love the warmth of the reception, the interaction I
:40:14. > :40:19.have with people. I do not know whether they are Muslims, Jews, in
:40:20. > :40:25.Jews -- Hindus, atheists, it is irrelevant. There is something
:40:26. > :40:30.fundamental here, a parallel process in the document that is going on.
:40:31. > :40:35.The question is, should we be tolerant of intolerance? I doubt if
:40:36. > :40:40.anybody would say, yes, we should we tolerant of intolerance. We should
:40:41. > :40:49.not, but there are certain. We should not go beyond. We said levels
:40:50. > :40:59.where we say, culturally, we will not go beyond that. We do not need a
:41:00. > :41:03.priest to tell us. I believe that freedom of speech and thought are so
:41:04. > :41:11.valuable that we should defend them at all costs. If you cannot defend
:41:12. > :41:17.the freedom of speech of people with whom you profoundly disagree, that
:41:18. > :41:23.is no freedom. All of this use of view at extremism in this
:41:24. > :41:28.discussion, they are practising extremism, the suggestion that it
:41:29. > :41:34.will lead on to the commission of terrorist acts, this seems to be
:41:35. > :41:42.very dangerous for freedom of thought. Many ideas which I hold,
:41:43. > :41:47.when my parents helped them, they were commonplace, but now they are
:41:48. > :41:56.eccentric and outrageous, they are increasingly classified as
:41:57. > :42:01.extremism. How long is it... I am clearly about to finish my point.
:42:02. > :42:05.How long is it before the classification of such ideas as
:42:06. > :42:11.extremism leads to restrictions on freedoms of speech? We should be
:42:12. > :42:18.careful. I disagree with a lot of what Muslims think and say, there
:42:19. > :42:23.are many disputes and criticisms I have, but they should be free to
:42:24. > :42:28.express them, not least so we can know what they are. We speak at
:42:29. > :42:34.last, you believe there is an issue. Quite a lot of people come
:42:35. > :42:40.here because it is a tolerant country, but I note you feel
:42:41. > :42:46.here because it is a tolerant often persecuted. They are
:42:47. > :42:52.persecuted, in hard secular regimes, Christians are not free to practice
:42:53. > :42:55.their beliefs, in hard Islamic regimes, Christians are not free to
:42:56. > :43:00.practice their beliefs. We have to look at the root of why our country
:43:01. > :43:05.has been known as the land of the free and the brave, where our
:43:06. > :43:10.education systems and Parliamentary systems have been emulated across
:43:11. > :43:15.the world. It goes back to the Magna Carta, but the inspiration behind
:43:16. > :43:25.the David Carter was Jesus Christ and Kristian Etty -- Christianity.
:43:26. > :43:30.That has given us our freedom and flourishing. As we experience social
:43:31. > :43:36.cultural chaos and a deep sense of loss in terms of our identity, we
:43:37. > :43:40.get this collision of ideas, suppression and oppression. The
:43:41. > :43:45.reality of Christianity is it is welcoming and hospitable and does
:43:46. > :43:52.not coerce, it hosts. What we are finding with a secular regime and as
:43:53. > :43:55.director of the Christian legal Centre is that Christians are losing
:43:56. > :43:59.their jobs for offering prayer, holding opinions in schools, they
:44:00. > :44:09.will not decide over same-sex marriages, and this is reality. A
:44:10. > :44:15.reality of working at the centre is this, in the last month, we have had
:44:16. > :44:19.women who have been born and raised in London and in London schools and
:44:20. > :44:23.at London University 's who have wanted to leave Islam, and they have
:44:24. > :44:28.been threatened with their life if they leave Islam. They are not
:44:29. > :44:35.coming from Saudi Arabia or northern Nigeria, they are coming from
:44:36. > :44:54.London, Birmingham, Bradford. We cannot tolerate the threat of
:44:55. > :45:00.women... Miriam... I think the debate on tolerance must split. I
:45:01. > :45:05.believe that that does happen. People are told me they have been
:45:06. > :45:12.threatened. It happens here and there come from the community. But
:45:13. > :45:16.think the splits into two. Legal tolerance of bigotry exists in this
:45:17. > :45:22.country for good reason because we need to hear extremist views and
:45:23. > :45:27.vent them in a democratic process. But in civil society does not mean
:45:28. > :45:31.that we promote, teach, or endorse racism, homophobia anti-Semitism or
:45:32. > :45:38.any other form of bigotry, whether it is justified by God or any other
:45:39. > :45:44.ideology. And anti-Muslim hatred. That is the distinction we have to
:45:45. > :45:52.make. Should we ban the Torah? That is my question. Can we start by
:45:53. > :46:00.banning the Torah? Why are you obsessed with the Jews?! I am
:46:01. > :46:36.pointing out your inconsistencies. Rabbi Laura and Miriam,
:46:37. > :46:37.lovely. Is it the duty of faith leaders to encourage people of faith
:46:38. > :46:48.to see their faiths in a modern context? And what does matter mean?
:46:49. > :46:52.With doubt. Doubt is a great inoculation against fundamentalism.
:46:53. > :46:57.We should question and we should learn about our faith and other
:46:58. > :47:02.faiths. It is our role as faith leaders to teach in a modern way and
:47:03. > :47:10.that means about ourselves and other religions, with questions. No
:47:11. > :47:14.absolute certainties? I am absolutely sure about that. Miriam,
:47:15. > :47:19.what about that, people standing up and saying, because there is a sense
:47:20. > :47:23.of solidarity within faith and communities, and if one is attacked,
:47:24. > :47:27.there is a feeling that everyone is being attacked. Do you understand
:47:28. > :47:30.where I am going with this? Is it not time to stand up and actually
:47:31. > :47:35.condemn more when we hear outrageous things? I do not know where you are
:47:36. > :47:39.going with that and I'm going to choose to pretend that I do not know
:47:40. > :47:46.where you are going. Rabbi Laura kind of addressed it. Yes. I would
:47:47. > :47:51.like to come back to this idea that for me, faith leaders should teach
:47:52. > :47:54.what they think is right. And schools should teach critical
:47:55. > :47:57.faculties which allow us to distinguish twin solid arguments and
:47:58. > :48:03.unsubstantiated arguments. And that is it. Those are the divisions. And
:48:04. > :48:10.that is extremism. Extremism is saying that this is what you must
:48:11. > :48:13.think and this is the truth. I'm trying to say that faith leaders
:48:14. > :48:16.should stand up and say that this is not what you should think this is
:48:17. > :48:22.something with philosophical flat ability. Back to Michael Gove, we
:48:23. > :48:27.should be teaching our children how to think. The greatest gift you give
:48:28. > :48:33.a child is the skill to think, the critical functions to think. When we
:48:34. > :48:36.tell a child that this is what you must think when Michael Gove says
:48:37. > :48:41.you must read this book and you cannot read that book... Michael
:48:42. > :48:45.Gove has not said you cannot read that book. This is almost as
:48:46. > :48:48.obsessive as saying it is all about the Jews. There's a curriculum and
:48:49. > :48:53.we encourage people to read the best literature. One of the things that
:48:54. > :48:58.David Cameron... You say that we have to believe in something. We
:48:59. > :49:04.cannot teach in a void. What has given us our freedom is our
:49:05. > :49:09.Christian heritage. The believe in nothing, to believe in
:49:10. > :49:13.existentialism... Can we not believe in freedom and democracy? Those
:49:14. > :49:24.ideals come from a Christian backdrop. I am not sure. When I'm
:49:25. > :49:27.teaching my children, do this and do not do that, I have to tell them
:49:28. > :49:32.that this is wrong and this is right but the reasons for right and wrong
:49:33. > :49:35.IDs. We give them absolutes, as I think, and they're also give them
:49:36. > :49:40.rationale. Without absolutes, they would be confused. I believe, and
:49:41. > :49:44.this is an experience I have had with my daughter, eight years of
:49:45. > :49:49.teaching children has convinced me that there are more needs for
:49:50. > :49:51.absolutes. If society did not have absolutes, we would be doing all
:49:52. > :49:58.sorts of things without coming together, that would keep us apart.
:49:59. > :50:07.As a faith leader, is it your duty to bring beliefs up-to-date, or... ?
:50:08. > :50:14.Contemporary interpretation as a Muslim is a must, as far as I'm
:50:15. > :50:24.concerned. It is wrong of me not to. Constantly renewing the verdict is a
:50:25. > :50:28.key value of Islam. But not to an extent that you would say that equal
:50:29. > :50:33.marriage is OK? You would stick to ancient beliefs on that? Italy says,
:50:34. > :50:38.can we abolish prior or end fasting in the month of Ramadan, can we take
:50:39. > :50:42.it to December when the days are short? We cannot make those changes
:50:43. > :50:47.because they are absolutes in the grand. If you take them away, you
:50:48. > :50:50.might as well not have Islam. I'm saying that contemporary
:50:51. > :50:53.interpretation would imply, how do white practice my face, for example
:50:54. > :51:03.in Norway where the sun does not set? As far as I'm concerned, Islam
:51:04. > :51:08.does not accept equal marriage. And both sides need to stay with their
:51:09. > :51:13.views. I believe on one view and others believe differently. That
:51:14. > :51:17.creates a level playing field in which we can tolerate one another.
:51:18. > :51:20.And that is the good reason why the state is secular because he has the
:51:21. > :51:25.right to say that and the state will conduct equal marriage and marriage
:51:26. > :51:29.between a man and a man and a woman to a woman and will not listen to
:51:30. > :51:33.that. If he wants to do it in his home, he can follow that view but
:51:34. > :51:42.the state is not obliged. And that is called equality before the law.
:51:43. > :51:44.I'd think it is useful to listen to the Bishop Holloway, who said the
:51:45. > :51:52.opposite of faith is not doubt but certainty. I wanted to mention, it
:51:53. > :52:01.comes back to something said earlier, the period we are in, of
:52:02. > :52:04.rethinking things, that is what the Prime Minister has been writing this
:52:05. > :52:10.morning, everyone is trying to nail down these values. In the reaction
:52:11. > :52:14.to Andrei APPLAUSE comments, nobody seems to be keen on admitting, and I
:52:15. > :52:21.speak as a secularist, on admitting that Christian -- the Christian
:52:22. > :52:25.origin of some of these things. We cannot write our heritage out or
:52:26. > :52:32.pretend it was something else. One of the things that is being done on
:52:33. > :52:40.this, there is this attempt to accomplish the Li Na -- encompass
:52:41. > :52:45.everyone in these great values. Freedom, tolerance, good, but there
:52:46. > :52:49.is a risk in this. It comes back to always highlighting gay marriage,
:52:50. > :52:53.something I am in supportive of, there is a risk that the build-up
:52:54. > :52:57.this value system on white ground, to encompass everyone, but it might
:52:58. > :53:02.also be ground and that is very shallow. I would suggests that some
:53:03. > :53:03.of the things we are talking about, if we are identifying the country on
:53:04. > :53:13.some of those lines, it prove to be, too shallow for some
:53:14. > :53:18.people. Peter, you said in your column today that the whole thing...
:53:19. > :53:25.I will come to you, Peter. You are very insistent. I am in a
:53:26. > :53:27.91-year-old gay man. Following what the gentleman has said, I am living
:53:28. > :53:35.in a relatively gay friendly the gentleman has said, I am living
:53:36. > :53:42.Brighton. I have been in and 18 year long loving relationship with my
:53:43. > :53:46.partner. I campaign to combat homophobia. I used to say to people,
:53:47. > :53:50.please understand, I have been married and had three children, but
:53:51. > :53:56.I have always been gay. People said, you cannot possibly be gay! I did
:53:57. > :54:00.not choose to be, but I am gay. Now I've stopped as people to understand
:54:01. > :54:14.because I do not understand myself. So I know say to people, please
:54:15. > :54:27.accept! Accept, sexuality! -- homosexuality! Peter, you said in
:54:28. > :54:27.your column today, finding a definition of Britishness,
:54:28. > :54:32.your column today, finding a described it as squelchy, impossible
:54:33. > :54:38.to define. What is Britishness to you? It is impossible to define and
:54:39. > :54:42.I do not believe you can define it by anyway other than the way in
:54:43. > :54:45.which it is being destroyed. What does David Cameron mean? He does not
:54:46. > :54:48.know what he means, he is just talking about political advantage.
:54:49. > :54:52.The nation state which our support is the largest unit in which it is
:54:53. > :54:58.possible to be effectively on selfish. We have that, and now that
:54:59. > :55:02.we do not necessarily share a religion or language or a belief in
:55:03. > :55:05.certain laws and customs, we do not it is a regrettable change that has
:55:06. > :55:11.overtaken this country but one which is irreversible. How we work out how
:55:12. > :55:14.to live with our new neighbours in peace and harmony is going to be
:55:15. > :55:18.very difficult. I do not think it will be British and I think we have
:55:19. > :55:21.lost that. It will be something else and we can mourn its lost but to
:55:22. > :55:24.pretend we can be something else and we can warn it's lost but to pretend
:55:25. > :55:27.we can recreated with speeches... I think British values are easy to
:55:28. > :55:30.define. It resides in the elevation of the individual about the state
:55:31. > :55:35.and the law of the government. In constitutional principle. You might
:55:36. > :55:36.say that those values are universal, but how did they become universal
:55:37. > :55:42.values? Imagine that but how did they become universal
:55:43. > :55:45.the Cold War had ended differently. There would be nothing universal
:55:46. > :55:49.about these values. They developed overwhelmingly in the language that
:55:50. > :55:52.we are now talking. And they were exported, if we are honest about it,
:55:53. > :55:57.victories by English-speaking victories by English-speaking
:55:58. > :56:00.peoples, and thank God they were. Imagine of those conflicts had ended
:56:01. > :56:04.differently and we were living in a system that elevated the state over
:56:05. > :56:11.the individual. There is nothing universal about that. There are two
:56:12. > :56:17.mad ways to say British values, you can say British, you are out or
:56:18. > :56:24.British with warmth. Let's say that British values are one thing and it
:56:25. > :56:34.is expensive. -- are a warm thing. British values, squelchy or clear?
:56:35. > :56:39.Do not mean that personally. -- I do not mean. Miriam. Obviously, there
:56:40. > :56:42.is a debt to Christianity in this country and there is no reason to
:56:43. > :56:47.pretend that there is not. It is part of our history. But there is
:56:48. > :56:51.also a debt to other trends and ideas and acknowledging that is part
:56:52. > :56:55.of recognising that what it meant to be British in Peter's parents
:56:56. > :57:01.generation is not the same as what it means to be British today. It is
:57:02. > :57:06.the redefinition of what means to be British. Britishness, what is it all
:57:07. > :57:10.about? I am in Road Muslim and are lobbying in Britain. It is a
:57:11. > :57:13.tolerant society and the British people are tolerant and loving. -- a
:57:14. > :57:19.proud Muslim. What is happening right now is that some politicians
:57:20. > :57:23.are making this country look ugly. It is a beautiful country and it
:57:24. > :57:25.must remain so. I'd defend the freedom of every individual who
:57:26. > :57:34.lives here according to the law. Thank you very much. The last word?
:57:35. > :57:39.To me, Britain has given me what it should. It is more Islamic than most
:57:40. > :57:44.Muslim countries. In itself, that says a lot to me. It is where I can
:57:45. > :57:48.Pty am, free to express myself and have my children grow. Can be proud
:57:49. > :57:55.of my and everything. But some of these values are universal. I want
:57:56. > :57:59.to be a proud citizen of the world with these values are practised by
:58:00. > :58:05.everybody. I think we are going to get one last word from Michael. It
:58:06. > :58:09.is a feeling and we love being here and that feeling is what we need to
:58:10. > :58:16.promote so that everyone who wants to make this country more secure
:58:17. > :58:23.going forward. I want to ended there, on harmony. -- and if there,
:58:24. > :58:25.on harmony, before we go for lunch together.
:58:26. > :58:28.As ever, the debate will continue on Twitter and online.
:58:29. > :58:30.This is the end of this series but we?ll be back next year
:58:31. > :58:33.Until then, have a great summer and goodbye
:58:34. > :59:03.to the cutting-edge science that's driving it,
:59:04. > :59:08.Horizon investigates one of the biggest mysteries