:00:09. > :00:29.Today an The Big Questions, Benefits Street, sex selection and Satan.
:00:30. > :00:40.Good morning, I am Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions. We are
:00:41. > :00:44.live from the Oasis Academy at MediaCityUK in Salford, welcome to
:00:45. > :00:47.The Big Questions! Since Channel 4 launched the series Benefits Street
:00:48. > :00:53.two weeks ago, the unemployed residents of James Turner Street in
:00:54. > :00:56.Birmingham have been abused online, in the papers and outside their
:00:57. > :01:02.front doors. Iain Duncan Smith said the show had shocked people and was
:01:03. > :01:06.helping to make his case for further benefit cuts. So are the poor being
:01:07. > :01:11.demonised in this show and elsewhere? Steve Chalke, you are
:01:12. > :01:17.here in behalf of the residence of Benefits Street. Has this show,
:01:18. > :01:22.James Turner Street, I do beg your pardon! Has this showed demonised
:01:23. > :01:26.those people all humanised them? A couple of things, the very fact that
:01:27. > :01:30.you got it muddled up, when you said Benefits Street, that says it all.
:01:31. > :01:33.Your introduction says it all, because you say these people have
:01:34. > :01:38.been abused on their front doorsteps. I am actually here, in a
:01:39. > :01:42.sense on their behalf, but they must be allowed to speak for themselves
:01:43. > :01:46.without being put in some kind of circus where they are then belittled
:01:47. > :01:53.by kind of phoney intellectuals on one side or the other. I am here not
:01:54. > :01:58.to... I know there is a huge debate around benefits and dependency, and
:01:59. > :02:04.we must have it. And we will. I am not here for that reason. I spoke to
:02:05. > :02:09.some of the leaders yesterday, and there are many residents I do not
:02:10. > :02:15.know, but I do know them, and as we run this school, so it happens, a
:02:16. > :02:19.few days after Christmas into the New Year, we took responsibility for
:02:20. > :02:22.the small primary school on James Turner Street, and it happens to be
:02:23. > :02:27.the school with the street name outside it. There are children who
:02:28. > :02:31.have not come to school because you have got tourists up and down the
:02:32. > :02:35.streets chanting and calling abuse, children we are having to collect,
:02:36. > :02:39.children who are worried about going out into the playground at lunch or
:02:40. > :02:43.at break time. And from the senior school, we run the junior school,
:02:44. > :02:49.kids are getting bullied on the buses et cetera. I am just... It is
:02:50. > :02:53.true, after this programme, I am going to send this letter to Eddie
:02:54. > :02:59.Richards, a copy yet, it is going to be delivered this morning. Who is
:03:00. > :03:04.he? He is the chief executive of Ofcom, they police television, and I
:03:05. > :03:10.have copied it to Michael Gove, the Secretary of State for education,
:03:11. > :03:14.and also Maria Miller, Secretary of State responsible for media. The
:03:15. > :03:19.point is, we can have a debate about benefits, but I am saying that the
:03:20. > :03:27.price of one child being scared to go to school is too high a price to
:03:28. > :03:37.pay for any nation. I need to say one more thing. This is a formal
:03:38. > :03:40.complaint from me as the founder of Oasis Community Learning, and the
:03:41. > :03:45.last thing I want to say is that the community leaders there believe that
:03:46. > :03:48.tomorrow night's episode contains a safeguarding issue about one of the
:03:49. > :03:53.pupils from our school, and I am saying to the Secretary of State and
:03:54. > :03:58.do the boss of Ofcom this morning, unless they have watched that
:03:59. > :04:03.programme, Ofcom have watched it and know that there and no legal issues,
:04:04. > :04:09.I do not think it should go ahead. I will hold them to account. You are
:04:10. > :04:12.taking away from the fact that 5% of them people go to work, the fact
:04:13. > :04:16.what is being shown on the telly, and if it is a deterrent to stop
:04:17. > :04:22.claiming benefits, the programme should be highlighted. But the
:04:23. > :04:27.people... Let me say, the people who wrote this with me and wrote to the
:04:28. > :04:31.Times on Friday, these are not illiterate people, they are very
:04:32. > :04:37.smart. They are good, clear thinking. Most of the street are in
:04:38. > :04:46.work, lots of people... Excuse me, 5%! I know the people! OK, Steve,
:04:47. > :04:52.let's hear them out. What point are you making? It's like saying we
:04:53. > :05:01.don't show drinking and driving ads. If it highlights the problem we have
:05:02. > :05:05.out there... Wait! You should not be rude. 200 billion we are spending on
:05:06. > :05:11.welfare and benefits, and we continue like that, the country will
:05:12. > :05:15.continue to go bust. We have to debate that. We need to use that
:05:16. > :05:22.money in the workplace to generate more work and to help youngsters. We
:05:23. > :05:29.need to debate that! But not at the expense of one street. I know you
:05:30. > :05:35.want to come in as well, Angela, you say 200 million... 200 billion! But
:05:36. > :05:41.only 3% of that goes to people who are unemployed. It is 200 billion
:05:42. > :05:47.into the welfare system. Including pensioners. The country generate 600
:05:48. > :05:50.billion, a third of it is going to benefits and welfare. If we continue
:05:51. > :05:58.to carry on like that, our children will go bust. It ain't right, Steve,
:05:59. > :06:03.it don't matter what you say. I want to bring in Angela. Before it moves
:06:04. > :06:06.on, I am happy for it to move on, you have to know that this programme
:06:07. > :06:15.has not represented the working people of that community. It is not
:06:16. > :06:23.representative, and they need a right of reply. Steve Chalke, I will
:06:24. > :06:27.come back to you later! OK... Angela Epstein, you were saying earlier, as
:06:28. > :06:32.we were having a copy, you think there is a whisper of truth in this
:06:33. > :06:37.programme. We have to have a clear line of demarcation between what
:06:38. > :06:40.they call observational reality television, poverty porn is the new
:06:41. > :06:46.buzzword for this kind of freak show, that it has been labelled as.
:06:47. > :06:51.It is a bit like Charles Dickens, he tried to put a microscope on the
:06:52. > :06:54.poor, and in the process did that by creating these huge stereotypical,
:06:55. > :06:59.larger than life characters in order to raise social issues. If we sweep
:07:00. > :07:03.to one side there is nothing there that connotes with reality, fine,
:07:04. > :07:07.most of it is there for the benefit of great television, and Channel 4
:07:08. > :07:11.have managed to clock up fabulous ratings as a consequence, and people
:07:12. > :07:15.seem to be happy to watch that. But the issue is we have to break the
:07:16. > :07:19.cycle of welfare dependency. There are lots of people there who want to
:07:20. > :07:23.go to work, what self-respecting self-esteem, they want to be able to
:07:24. > :07:28.get out of bed and say, I am this person, I can beat this person who
:07:29. > :07:32.owns an honest living. At the moment, the benefits system is what
:07:33. > :07:36.has betrayed the people who live in places like so-called Benefits
:07:37. > :07:40.Street. If the system didn't exist whereby it was more profitable, if
:07:41. > :07:43.you like, to stay in bed or stay at home and go to work because he was
:07:44. > :07:47.so demoralised by what you earn, then the system is betraying a whole
:07:48. > :07:54.generation of people. We have people who leave school at 16, go on the
:07:55. > :07:56.dole, get a flat, whatever, no apprenticeships or possibility of
:07:57. > :08:01.work placement. This is where the system needs to look, and Channel 4
:08:02. > :08:04.is just... Did you feel uncomfortable watching the
:08:05. > :08:10.programme? Kate Green MP, did you feel uncomfortable? I feel angry on
:08:11. > :08:13.behalf of those people. We do not know more than a little slice of
:08:14. > :08:17.their lives we were shown, we do not know the back story, all the
:08:18. > :08:21.circumstances. We don't know what it might be that is preventing them
:08:22. > :08:27.from being in work and having to claim benefits. Just a minute...
:08:28. > :08:32.Just a minute, Charlie! Let's hear from an elected representative. I
:08:33. > :08:35.don't think it attractive to live on benefits and be demonised and
:08:36. > :08:39.humiliated in front of millions of viewers. Nobody would be choosing
:08:40. > :08:43.that experience, people may be on benefits because of health problems,
:08:44. > :08:50.it may be that they have issues about literacy, qualifications. It
:08:51. > :08:53.could be that they are unwell, but it is a hidden illness that we
:08:54. > :08:57.cannot see. It could be there are no jobs in that community. Some people
:08:58. > :09:00.are saying there is a great issue of community and humanity coming
:09:01. > :09:03.through that programme. One of the things that concerns me about
:09:04. > :09:08.Channel 4's intentions on this programme, other than good ratings,
:09:09. > :09:12.if it was to divide communities and society, I find that very offensive.
:09:13. > :09:16.Any of us could need to claim benefits, any of us could have a
:09:17. > :09:20.disaster, become sick or lose a job. I would want that system to be
:09:21. > :09:27.there for me, and we should all want it to be there for all of us.
:09:28. > :09:32.Charlie, make a response. 95% of them people are not going to work.
:09:33. > :09:36.Obviously, there are genuine cases that cannot go to work and we should
:09:37. > :09:41.help them, but a lot of people... The problem you have got is... That
:09:42. > :09:48.is what the figures say... It is wrong, I know this people. Let me
:09:49. > :09:50.just tell you something. Why are we making benefits so attractive, more
:09:51. > :10:01.attractive than going to work? What do you mean? It is not attractive!
:10:02. > :10:07.Rachel. I looked like the very acme of middle-class respectability, but
:10:08. > :10:11.for over two years of my life, as a result of ill-health, I was unable
:10:12. > :10:17.to work, and I know from the inside... Let me ask you a question,
:10:18. > :10:20.do you think that stigma was informed by what people were reading
:10:21. > :10:24.in the newspapers and what people saw on television? Was that skewing
:10:25. > :10:29.their attitudes towards you? I want to clarify, I think we were living
:10:30. > :10:32.in a slightly more compassionate society at the time, there was less
:10:33. > :10:39.of this click based television going on, but it was the case that I
:10:40. > :10:43.recognised I was living on a very challenging the state, an amazing
:10:44. > :10:48.estate in Salford, and that many of us felt very much pushed to the
:10:49. > :10:54.outside, and you know what happens, Nicky, with stigma? It becomes
:10:55. > :10:59.internalised, and it can be very, very hard to step outside of that.
:11:00. > :11:03.And the kind of people, like this gentleman here, who clearly over
:11:04. > :11:11.prioritised and individualistic conception of society, you do, you
:11:12. > :11:16.simply do not... Let me finish, please... Lady... You do not have an
:11:17. > :11:22.understanding of a community of character, the kind of community I
:11:23. > :11:27.suspect we all want to be in. Charlie, before we go any further, I
:11:28. > :11:31.will come to you, put your hands up, because we will have a galop around
:11:32. > :11:35.the audience in a second. An interesting statistic which you may
:11:36. > :11:40.or may not be aware of, people's perceptions, according to a fairly
:11:41. > :11:47.recent poll, 20% of social security payments are lost to fraud, 27%. The
:11:48. > :11:57.actual figure is... What do you think? Beutel me. No, you tell us,
:11:58. > :12:03.Charlie! Have a guess. I don't know. 0.7%. 40,000 children we pay for
:12:04. > :12:10.live abroad and claim on benefits, is that right? It is a small slice
:12:11. > :12:17.of the benefits payments, a very small size. Right, I will tell you
:12:18. > :12:23.what, wait, wait, wait! We are going to go over Sheila, who has been
:12:24. > :12:27.waiting to come in, Northwest region co-ordinated of Unite,
:12:28. > :12:31.interestingly, you did a protest outside the production company
:12:32. > :12:35.officers, didn't you? Yes, that is right, and my colleague in the South
:12:36. > :12:39.was involved in that, and the people who are protesting there are people
:12:40. > :12:44.at the cutting edge, and it makes me so angry listening to you, because
:12:45. > :12:52.you buy into the myth, you know, I wouldn't be surprised if you read
:12:53. > :12:56.the Sun, to be honest with you! Are people demonised through this
:12:57. > :13:00.programme? Yes, not only demonised but people are increasingly
:13:01. > :13:07.criminalised through the cuts. Through the bedroom tax cuts,
:13:08. > :13:12.through a variety of sanctions. The bailiffs, evictions. Working class
:13:13. > :13:18.people who want to work, those who are able, are increasingly demonised
:13:19. > :13:21.and criminalised. Programmes like this served to mobilise communities,
:13:22. > :13:26.because I will not be negative about it. What I will say, in line with
:13:27. > :13:30.what other people are saying, what I see are people on the cutting edge,
:13:31. > :13:33.people who cannot work because of illness. I see the cuts impacting on
:13:34. > :13:39.their physical and mental health, the deterioration in those people, I
:13:40. > :13:44.have seen it over the past year, but what I see is a great generosity of
:13:45. > :13:48.spirit and humanity, where people are coming together, and it is that
:13:49. > :13:52.people with the least, who have the least, they are coming together to
:13:53. > :13:57.organise resources for their own communities. A lot of people are
:13:58. > :14:00.saying this, that is a consequence, perhaps an unintended consequence,
:14:01. > :14:07.who knows, but a consequence of this programme. One person comes across
:14:08. > :14:12.as a most extraordinary, warm and wonderful person, I watched two
:14:13. > :14:17.episodes... People should not have to. The idea of food banks in the
:14:18. > :14:23.21st century, to lay the ills of these country on the most
:14:24. > :14:27.vulnerable, not... I am not talking about the vulnerable! You are! You
:14:28. > :14:38.are buying into the lies and the myth... If it sends out a message to
:14:39. > :14:44.youngsters... Wait! Shh! That is nice, isn't it?! Charlie, what kind
:14:45. > :14:47.of message do you want this to send? If the programme sends out a
:14:48. > :14:53.message, a deterrent to youngsters to going onto benefits, then it is
:14:54. > :14:59.doing the right job. Where the jobs for the young people? Use the
:15:00. > :15:04.benefit money. What benefits manager Mike last year we scrutinised MPs
:15:05. > :15:07.and public officials for their expenses, and people were arguing
:15:08. > :15:11.that because money was being spent, we had a right to know what it is
:15:12. > :15:15.being spent on. I feel that the vulnerable in society should
:15:16. > :15:18.definitely get the money they need, and they should be respected for
:15:19. > :15:21.that, because if you are unable to work, there is no reason why you
:15:22. > :15:25.should not be paid from the public offers and respected for that. But
:15:26. > :15:37.those who are able to work, there is no reason we should not be able to
:15:38. > :15:39.scrutinise their lives, we are paying for their lifestyle, and just
:15:40. > :15:43.like we can scrutinise MPs... What lifestyle is that to me if they have
:15:44. > :15:53.got a big fat TV, there is no reason we should not be able to scrutinise
:15:54. > :16:04.that. There are two things I want to say. Benefits go back into the
:16:05. > :16:10.economy when you get them. The second thing is, I have forgotten.
:16:11. > :16:18.It happens to me all the time. Thank you. I would like to say as a member
:16:19. > :16:23.of the Muslim community and GP, the welfare rights system is an act of
:16:24. > :16:27.piety by the nation. Every single member of this audience, we are
:16:28. > :16:32.actually helping the needy. We are getting distracted by this
:16:33. > :16:37.television show and the principle behind it which is helping the
:16:38. > :16:41.needy. There is an issue behind the equitable redistribution of wealth
:16:42. > :16:44.in their society. There is a small proportion of very wealthy people
:16:45. > :16:50.who called the wealth and we are not distributing it equally. The
:16:51. > :16:55.benefits cuts will lead to social disharmony eventually. This is an
:16:56. > :17:00.Islamic principle which is obligatory almsgiving. If we start
:17:01. > :17:03.to be tough on the poor, we will see problems in the future. We need to
:17:04. > :17:11.think about our vision for the future here. I do not think it is
:17:12. > :17:15.about being tough on the poor, it is about doing the right thing. If
:17:16. > :17:21.people are sponging off the system, they need to be addressed. How many
:17:22. > :17:27.do that? It does not matter how many are doing it, all people are saying
:17:28. > :17:32.is those are the people that need to be addressed. We are not saying do
:17:33. > :17:42.bad things to the poor in general. If people are sponging off the
:17:43. > :17:50.system, that needs to be sorted out. Steve Davis, where is Capital Gains
:17:51. > :18:00.Street? What about people at the other end of society who are
:18:01. > :18:03.sponging? The London standard had a headline saying that the rise in
:18:04. > :18:09.house prices for many people in London was more than they actually
:18:10. > :18:14.happened. That shows one of the big problems behind all of this. One of
:18:15. > :18:17.the difficulties that people on that street face is the cripplingly high
:18:18. > :18:26.cost of housing. That is why housing benefit is the biggest single part
:18:27. > :18:29.for pensioners. We have a situation where we are not supplying enough
:18:30. > :18:34.houses. That is one of the biggest things we can do to make the lives
:18:35. > :18:40.of people on low incomes and benefit a lot easier. You believe there is a
:18:41. > :18:45.certain sense of entitlement and hopelessness. I think that programme
:18:46. > :18:50.was exploitative and intended to push peoples buttons to get them
:18:51. > :18:53.agitated and angry. On the one hand, there was an angry sense of
:18:54. > :19:01.entitlement on the part of the people who are living on benefits
:19:02. > :19:05.but, also, a sense of hopelessness and despair. They were trapped. We
:19:06. > :19:12.are spending an enormous amount of money and not getting the results.
:19:13. > :19:18.Some people want to better themselves but because of the
:19:19. > :19:32.incentives the system set up, they are facing a marginal tax rate of
:19:33. > :19:36.80% -- effectively. It is not illegal to be unemployed. There are
:19:37. > :19:39.thousands of very successful people in our society who are where they
:19:40. > :19:44.are because when things get tough, they do not fall through the cracks.
:19:45. > :19:50.There are two issues which need to be addressed. If benefit fraud what
:19:51. > :19:55.is driving the financial crisis in this country? The size of benefit
:19:56. > :19:59.fraud is completely dwarfed by the size of tax fraud and tax evasion.
:20:00. > :20:05.Secondly, the issue we need to address, are we making work
:20:06. > :20:09.unattractive? There are a small slice of people for whom work can be
:20:10. > :20:16.less attractive than benefits. The reason for that what we need to do
:20:17. > :20:23.to solve it is to raise the minimum wage so that work actually pays. The
:20:24. > :20:26.Chancellor has suggested that everything will happen. We are
:20:27. > :20:30.raising the minimum wage to make it more of a living wage. We need to
:20:31. > :20:36.take the money from the cuts in the benefit and get it into the
:20:37. > :20:43.workplace. What about tax fraud and tax evasion and putting that money
:20:44. > :20:46.in? You would invest that into youngsters and apprenticeships. That
:20:47. > :20:54.will put something back into the pot. You will have to make sure... I
:20:55. > :20:58.agree that we should be trying to get the benefits bill down and
:20:59. > :21:05.supporting people in good jobs or you cannot do is take the rug away
:21:06. > :21:12.beforehand. Why not take it away from the tax evaders? Go to the
:21:13. > :21:21.other end of the spectrum. Evaders and avoiders - both. This is about
:21:22. > :21:25.what kind of community do we want. Do we want a community that
:21:26. > :21:31.prioritises the weakest and the most honourable or are we a society that
:21:32. > :21:38.seeks to stigmatise and stereotype the most vulnerable? I am going to
:21:39. > :21:45.give the last word on this debate, I said I would come back to you.
:21:46. > :21:51.Channel 4 plans a debate on this, which will be lively and interesting
:21:52. > :21:57.and no doubt get a big rating. Are the residents going to turn up, do
:21:58. > :22:02.you believe? I asked for a right to reply for the residents. The bosses
:22:03. > :22:07.of Channel 4 said they set up this debate like this. I have talked to
:22:08. > :22:12.some of the residents. I do not represent all the residents. It is a
:22:13. > :22:16.diverse community and I am working with some of the leaders. They feel
:22:17. > :22:20.what will happen is they will step into a goldfish bowl and tried to
:22:21. > :22:25.put their point of view and endless people will put them down again. My
:22:26. > :22:30.advice to them, and I agree with them, what they are asking for is
:22:31. > :22:35.just the opportunity to tell a truer and bigger and there are story about
:22:36. > :22:39.who they are. The last word from me is simply this. We talked about
:22:40. > :22:43.stigmatisation. The problem is that unless this is true story is told
:22:44. > :22:49.about this street, is one that has got out there, this. Which demonises
:22:50. > :22:55.so many people and has made us believe they are all not working for
:22:56. > :23:00.some reason, this will not exist and that will be a shadow over the lives
:23:01. > :23:05.of these young people as they grow. It will become a self-fulfilling
:23:06. > :23:08.prophecy. Let the people on the street speak for themselves in a
:23:09. > :23:15.different context to this Channel 4 piece of entertainment. If you have
:23:16. > :23:21.something to say about that debate, please log on to
:23:22. > :23:25.bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions, and follow the link to where you can
:23:26. > :23:34.join in the discussion online. Or contribute on Twitter. We're also
:23:35. > :23:38.debating live this morning from Salford, should it be illegal to
:23:39. > :23:41.reveal the sex of an unborn child? And, is there any evidence for
:23:42. > :23:45.Satan? So, get tweeting or e-mailing on those topics now or send us any
:23:46. > :23:48.other ideas or thoughts you may have about the show. This week, The
:23:49. > :23:50.Independent newspaper exposed a shocking set of statistics. In some
:23:51. > :23:53.British South Asian communities, women carrying girl babies are more
:23:54. > :23:56.likely to terminate their pregnancies if they already have a
:23:57. > :24:00.daughter. In England and Wales, up to 4,700 females were lost in this
:24:01. > :24:03.way. Such is the pressure to deliver sons that these women preferred to
:24:04. > :24:05.have an abortion than face the consequence of disappointing their
:24:06. > :24:14.husband and his family. Of course, no woman deserves this
:24:15. > :24:19.blame because it is the man's sperm that actually determines the gender
:24:20. > :24:28.of a child. Should it be illegal to reveal the sex of an unborn child?
:24:29. > :24:38.Shocking statistics, Rahila Gupta. It is interesting, the Nobel
:24:39. > :24:42.laureate was speaking 25 years ago. His quote is, he was talking about
:24:43. > :24:47.the tens of millions of missing women because of the selective
:24:48. > :24:51.abortion of female foetuses. Now of course this problem it would seem
:24:52. > :24:58.has reached our shores. What should be done? I should say that if the
:24:59. > :25:02.independent figures are correct, because they are extremely shocking
:25:03. > :25:10.figures, anecdotally we were aware of the fact, through my own personal
:25:11. > :25:16.experience. Asian women are under incredible pressure to give birth to
:25:17. > :25:20.a baby boy. By the way, I must say it actually extends to other
:25:21. > :25:24.communities as well. It is not just India and China but also European
:25:25. > :25:33.countries, most Soviet countries like Georgia, Azerbaijan, they have
:25:34. > :25:36.worse ratios than India itself. To come back to the question of the
:25:37. > :25:40.Asian community in Britain, anecdotally, we were aware of the
:25:41. > :25:46.fact there were women who are flying off to India, those who could afford
:25:47. > :25:52.it, to carry out the scans and the abortions. This figure is actually
:25:53. > :25:57.very shocking. What I would say is that regardless of the statistics we
:25:58. > :26:04.have, in any case, some hospitals are informally or formerly having a
:26:05. > :26:11.policy of not disclosing the sex of a child to all parents. To all
:26:12. > :26:14.parents? There is no profiling. There is no way of looking at the
:26:15. > :26:19.women and telling whether she would be in favour of having a girl or a
:26:20. > :26:25.boy child whether she is under pressure or not. No profiling
:26:26. > :26:29.whatsoever. Is that your experience? Profiling is happening.
:26:30. > :26:34.In 1985I gave birth to a little girl. Six months pregnant and I
:26:35. > :26:44.asked what the sex of the child was. The midwife said, we do not
:26:45. > :26:47.tell Asian women. Really? In places like Rotherham, they will not tell
:26:48. > :26:53.Asian women the sex of a child. They have said this to me on a daily
:26:54. > :26:58.basis. The midwives, the people who do the scans, they know this is a
:26:59. > :27:03.significant problem within South Asian communities. They are tackling
:27:04. > :27:11.it within their way. -- in their own way. There is no guidance saying we
:27:12. > :27:16.need to be putting this in place. These women are being forced to
:27:17. > :27:23.abort or kill unborn children if it is a girl. Is it not better to
:27:24. > :27:29.educate and inform, and to make sure that new attitudes devolve, rather
:27:30. > :27:36.than withhold information? Absolutely. That is what activists,
:27:37. > :27:41.all sorts of Muslim people have been doing all this time. These are
:27:42. > :27:48.deep, structural inequalities. It is about the value attached to a woman
:27:49. > :27:56.'s life. Also deep-seated cultural reasons. The issue about it our way
:27:57. > :28:00.is a cultural one. If all of these things are done side by side, that
:28:01. > :28:07.is the most important thing to do. Meanwhile, we are losing girls. We
:28:08. > :28:11.have lost 60 million. Also figures are being bandied about because we
:28:12. > :28:16.do not know the true figure. Across the world, 100 million women have
:28:17. > :28:20.not been born as a result of this. It is a terrible situation for us to
:28:21. > :28:24.be in and we need to take some action. I would say we should
:28:25. > :28:30.certainly ban disclosure and criminalise it across the board in
:28:31. > :28:38.Britain so no hospitals, private clinics, would be able to tell the
:28:39. > :28:45.sex of a child. What about after the legal term of abortion? After 24
:28:46. > :28:49.weeks, exactly. I have come to this conclusion because I feel I was
:28:50. > :28:56.trying to find a way of saying, how do we balance? As a feminist, I
:28:57. > :29:00.believe in a woman's right to choose to have an abortion. How do we
:29:01. > :29:05.balance this against the issue of so many women and girls disappearing? I
:29:06. > :29:09.wanted to restrict. I felt the only way to do that would be to restrict
:29:10. > :29:19.the information you give to a person. You can still exercise your
:29:20. > :29:27.right to choose. Kate, does the right to choose extend to this? Let
:29:28. > :29:32.me say one thing. The statistics published in the Independent do not
:29:33. > :29:36.show this is going on in the UK. I am speaking not as the women's
:29:37. > :29:42.rights activist but as someone with a maths degree. The study was done
:29:43. > :29:47.by in period College London. Let me explain what exactly it shows. They
:29:48. > :29:50.say there is an alternative explanation. They have looked at
:29:51. > :30:01.women with two children and the first one is a girl and with a
:30:02. > :30:04.second child more have boys. The other possibility is that people
:30:05. > :30:08.with two girls keep trying and have a third baby and then would be
:30:09. > :30:12.counted out of the statistics. We all know people who have had that
:30:13. > :30:18.policy. We have had one of age and we will stop all we have to the same
:30:19. > :30:24.and we will keep going. Statisticians say it is the only
:30:25. > :30:32.readily available data. There is another explanation for that. I
:30:33. > :31:18.know, as a forced marriage survivor, We have had examples of women who
:31:19. > :31:23.have had to abort their child because they know it is a girl. This
:31:24. > :31:28.particular girl was thrown down the stairs as a means to try to abort a
:31:29. > :31:32.child. We have examples of new wives being brought in because they have
:31:33. > :31:37.given birth to three daughters. So the point I am making is, what the
:31:38. > :31:41.Independent has done is start a devout about a real issue, and we
:31:42. > :31:48.need to follow it through. -- start a debate. And if she did not know
:31:49. > :31:58.the gender of the child, she could not do that? Yes. Let me jump in, we
:31:59. > :32:02.are saying... I must say, the pregnancy advisory service says this
:32:03. > :32:05.does not happen. Let's supposed there is a young woman and her
:32:06. > :32:09.family find out she is carrying a girl, and they will be violence to
:32:10. > :32:16.her and views, don't you think that woman, what she does deserve this to
:32:17. > :32:20.have more information to be held from her? What she needs is a safe
:32:21. > :32:25.place to get to and away from a family who might be violence to
:32:26. > :32:29.her? I absolutely agree with that, but something like this would
:32:30. > :32:34.empower the woman against her family, because if something is
:32:35. > :32:40.illegal, it is sort of outside... Sorry, if I can just give an example
:32:41. > :32:45.from the banning of the hijab in France. Not that I supported, but
:32:46. > :32:50.there are women who have said, who have reported, the fact that it was
:32:51. > :32:53.bound as given them a tool to argue against the family that you cannot
:32:54. > :32:57.insist on me wearing a hijab, because it is illegal, and in that
:32:58. > :33:03.way sometimes when the state intervenes, it is actually a form of
:33:04. > :33:07.protection. So it sends a powerful message. Let me bring Craig in, let
:33:08. > :33:15.me get the name of your... You are the editor of DNA Testing Choice,
:33:16. > :33:24.that says it all! Could a law like this work? Practically? I am here as
:33:25. > :33:28.an advocate of DNA testing, and recently you could not know the sex
:33:29. > :33:33.of a child until 13 weeks, determined by ultrasound. Now you
:33:34. > :33:36.can find out at seven weeks with a blood test or urine sample, which
:33:37. > :33:40.can be ordered on the internet and taken at home, which could really
:33:41. > :33:50.exacerbate this issue. Coming to the legality of it, there are certain
:33:51. > :33:56.genetic conditions called ex-linked recessive conditions, where if there
:33:57. > :34:01.is a boy baby, a male foetus... Could a doctor not reveal that? The
:34:02. > :34:06.parent would probably know that one of them was a carrier of the genetic
:34:07. > :34:10.disease, and the male baby has a 50% chance of having a condition like
:34:11. > :34:14.haemophilia. This is a different issue, really, because we are
:34:15. > :34:20.talking about gender selection. I will come back to Craig. We are
:34:21. > :34:24.talking about women being empowered, and I say this as a woman who has
:34:25. > :34:28.had three boys and a girl, that was the random lottery and how it played
:34:29. > :34:34.out for me, thank God they were all healthy as well. Scanning is
:34:35. > :34:40.essentially a diagnostic tool, there to offer clinical support for the
:34:41. > :34:45.health of the baby and the unborn child. It was not developed for us
:34:46. > :34:49.to know what the sex of the unborn child would be. However, as a
:34:50. > :34:53.by-product of that, if you happen to be able to see clearly and a
:34:54. > :34:57.sonographer cannot always tell, they told my husband that it was a boy
:34:58. > :35:02.because I did not want to know, and she's very much a girl, so they
:35:03. > :35:06.don't always get it right. If that information is there, as a woman,
:35:07. > :35:10.you are entitled to ask the question. It is not fair for the
:35:11. > :35:14.state to police what is essentially your baby. What has to happen,
:35:15. > :35:18.though, when it comes to abortion, women aborting their babies, aside
:35:19. > :35:29.from the horrific stories you were telling about women being thrown the
:35:30. > :35:31.stairs, it is not an arbitrary thing that happens. You have to go to
:35:32. > :35:34.unofficial clinic or the National Health Service provider. The 1967
:35:35. > :35:36.abortion act says, correct me if I am wrong, requires two doctors to
:35:37. > :35:40.sign off that you are an appropriate candidate for abortion, and research
:35:41. > :35:44.has shown that a certain percentage of women, doctors have not even seen
:35:45. > :35:50.the women whose abortions they are authorising. We have to shift the
:35:51. > :35:57.responsibility... The point is, as we heard earlier, this would send
:35:58. > :36:02.out a very powerful message... You cannot police women's bodies. It is
:36:03. > :36:06.not about policing women's bodies. It is about victims not having the
:36:07. > :36:12.courage, fearing for their life, there are unborn child's life, and
:36:13. > :36:17.not being able to speak out. Does that mean everybody is not allowed?
:36:18. > :36:21.Not being allowed to speak out? So this would be empowering? What you
:36:22. > :36:25.have to remember is that the people doing this to them are their nearest
:36:26. > :36:30.and dearest, and it is a number of multiple perpetrators, this is one
:36:31. > :36:37.isolated individual, and they need support to the empowered. So we all
:36:38. > :36:42.have got to...? Society has a role to play in protecting the most
:36:43. > :36:51.vulnerable. You did not mind what sexual child was... I wanted a
:36:52. > :36:56.little girl. I don't mind saying that. I felt that I wanted that sort
:36:57. > :37:00.of innate mother-daughter relationship, but I didn't choose to
:37:01. > :37:04.find out the sex of my child, simply because I did not want to have the
:37:05. > :37:07.arrogance of potential disappointment, because all you
:37:08. > :37:13.really want is a healthy baby. God forbid that should happen to
:37:14. > :37:21.somebody. I wanted to know it was a healthy baby. Reverend Steve Chalke,
:37:22. > :37:27.please, please, please! Sorry! It is all right! Is this a significant
:37:28. > :37:31.problem, and statistics suggest it is, it is illegal in India and
:37:32. > :37:36.China, so if not here, and how would you do it? I simply think that what
:37:37. > :37:39.we have got to do is listen to these ladies, because they understand the
:37:40. > :37:46.culture this is happening in and they struggle themselves. Thank you.
:37:47. > :37:50.It is rather ironic that, any name of liberty and freedom, we come to
:37:51. > :37:56.take away freedom. That is an extraordinary thing. Let him finish!
:37:57. > :38:01.Surely, if we believe in the sanctity of every human life, which
:38:02. > :38:05.is what I do, we have to listen hard to this. It has got to be worked
:38:06. > :38:11.through, and there are technicalities... How would you do
:38:12. > :38:14.it? Steve Chalke, would you withhold information from every woman, no
:38:15. > :38:23.matter what ethnicity, no matter where she came from? I think we... I
:38:24. > :38:27.do not have an easy answer, we need to have a debate, but we have to
:38:28. > :38:34.note these girls' lives are being lost. I think we have to find a way
:38:35. > :38:38.of withholding this information. From everyone? From everyone? I
:38:39. > :38:44.think that we have heard that you cannot tell by a woman... From
:38:45. > :38:52.everyone? I think we have to withhold this from everyone in order
:38:53. > :38:57.to protect people, it is an issue of human rights. All or nothing? It
:38:58. > :39:00.seems to me that we keep arguing about protecting these women so they
:39:01. > :39:04.find out the gender of their child when it is born, not beforehand, and
:39:05. > :39:08.then they will be at risk after it is born. You have the freedom to
:39:09. > :39:12.say, I do not want that information, I want that information, and more
:39:13. > :39:17.information is good, and we cannot take that away. If we believe in a
:39:18. > :39:20.woman's right to choose, we have to believe in her right to choose even
:39:21. > :39:25.when we do not agree with the reason. It is her choice. She may
:39:26. > :39:31.have no choice after she has had the baby. Reverend Rachel. Speaking as
:39:32. > :39:35.someone who writes as a feminist theologian, I am very conscious of
:39:36. > :39:42.how, in debate I have been involved in over many years, that there is
:39:43. > :39:46.often power held by white middle-class women like myself, and
:39:47. > :39:54.that has often stifled voices from other communities. So why are you
:39:55. > :40:04.talking?! It is precisely... I just want to say, I want to listen to my
:40:05. > :40:09.sisters... Can I just...? OK, yes, wait, wait, wait! I would like to
:40:10. > :40:13.come back on the notion of choice. I think that the word choice is used
:40:14. > :40:19.in a very simplistic fashion, and it is thrown around randomly. I think
:40:20. > :40:23.context is all important to the idea of choice, and when my choice
:40:24. > :40:27.disadvantages or entrenches disadvantage or inequality for other
:40:28. > :40:33.women, you know, whether it is about race class, what kind of feminist
:40:34. > :40:37.and I? It is a collective project. We cannot look at individual
:40:38. > :40:41.choices. How are we depriving women if we don't tell them the sex of
:40:42. > :40:46.their child? Other women who may not be, you know... What if they want to
:40:47. > :40:50.know for innocent reasons to me they are so trivial and frivolous, when
:40:51. > :40:55.in fact what you are doing is saving the lives of women. Last word,
:40:56. > :40:59.because you have campaigned so hard on this issue. It is not just about
:41:00. > :41:03.protecting the lives of women, it isn't about not killing young
:41:04. > :41:09.children that have not yet been born, girls. We must leave it there.
:41:10. > :41:14.You can join in all the debates by logging onto the BBC website and
:41:15. > :41:23.following the link to the online discussion, or you can tweet using
:41:24. > :41:27.the hashtag #bbctbq. And tell us what you think about our last
:41:28. > :41:32.question, is there any evidence about Satan? If you would like to be
:41:33. > :41:40.on the show, e-mail the address on screen.
:41:41. > :41:46.Well, the good news for those of you who are about to become godparents,
:41:47. > :41:50.you will know alone to have to pronounce the devil and all his
:41:51. > :41:55.works, so it is carry on, Satan, in the Church of England. But in Rome,
:41:56. > :42:00.they are training more exorcisms, so clearly the Catholic Church is still
:42:01. > :42:06.on guard against manifestations of the evil one. Is there any evidence
:42:07. > :42:12.for Satan? Imam Hassan, nice to see you again, good morning. Muslims
:42:13. > :42:18.believe God created the devil. What does the devil do? We believe that
:42:19. > :42:21.Satan exists and God created the devil, and in the Koran it is
:42:22. > :42:30.mentioned that the devil whispers into the ears of humankind to
:42:31. > :42:33.influence them, not control them, control the actions, but influence
:42:34. > :42:44.decisions they make. Examples Juma sinning against God, doing bad deeds
:42:45. > :42:48.towards other human beings. Is this not shifting the blame? Not
:42:49. > :42:53.necessarily. As I said, the devil cannot control human beings. The
:42:54. > :42:58.human beings control their own actions, but the devil whispers into
:42:59. > :43:02.the ears of human beings. Similarly, other human beings whisper into the
:43:03. > :43:09.ears of human beings, they influence them with words, with their
:43:10. > :43:14.behaviour and actions. Why did God create the devil? Primarily to test
:43:15. > :43:17.human beings, to test if they stick to the right path. And there are
:43:18. > :43:33.enough tests without the devil? Of course, but this is one of the tests
:43:34. > :43:37.that God created. What are djinn? Emissary is of the devil? You could
:43:38. > :43:45.put it like that, the dude be handy work of the devil. We believe there
:43:46. > :43:50.are some djinn who are believers of God. That is a spirit? Yes, they
:43:51. > :43:54.live in another dimension to us. We believe that there are believers
:43:55. > :43:59.amongst the djinn, they do good works, but we believe that there are
:44:00. > :44:03.certain s djinnwho carry out the works of the devil. Have you ever
:44:04. > :44:09.seen anyone possessed by the devil or anything like that? As an imam, I
:44:10. > :44:14.received a lot of calls, and people come to me and say, my child or this
:44:15. > :44:19.person has been possessed by the djinn or by the devil. And what I
:44:20. > :44:24.say to them is, look, why do you say that? I ask certain questions. The
:44:25. > :44:28.first question I would ask, have you been to a GP, have you been to a
:44:29. > :44:33.professional? May be that person is depressed. Have you ever come to the
:44:34. > :44:39.conclusion that somebody was possessed by the devil or by djinn?
:44:40. > :44:43.I have seen people personally, they have been influenced by the whispers
:44:44. > :44:48.of the devil, and we believe that this is something... What were they
:44:49. > :44:52.doing? They were behaving in an abnormal manner. They were not
:44:53. > :44:57.behaving in a normal fashion, and what I would tell them is to recite
:44:58. > :45:04.the holy Koran, we believe this is a miracle. It might be a mental health
:45:05. > :45:14.issue. That is what I said. When people come, I say, have you been to
:45:15. > :45:20.a professional? Do you know of people who have been possessed by
:45:21. > :45:27.the devil? In the field of mental health, it is recognised now that
:45:28. > :45:35.spirituality can be a force route to understanding mental health. What
:45:36. > :45:39.does that mean? The first one is biology and psychology. Do you think
:45:40. > :45:47.a mental health condition can be because of the work of the devil?
:45:48. > :45:54.Precisely. That is what they recognised now. Who recognises
:45:55. > :46:03.that? It is written. It is in the book. There is a section where it
:46:04. > :46:09.says, for those who are not materialist, we should give room of
:46:10. > :46:15.consideration of the spiritual dimensional of their mental health.
:46:16. > :46:21.Have you never heard the example of a child possessed by the devil? Have
:46:22. > :46:25.you heard of this? I have heard of it. There are testimonies of
:46:26. > :46:33.children who have been delivered, set free. The testimony of what the
:46:34. > :46:39.devil has done with them. What the devil has done with them! They are
:46:40. > :46:45.children. We cannot prove scientifically that Satan exists. We
:46:46. > :46:50.are not going to leave the debate here. We are going to hear from
:46:51. > :46:56.other people. Richard Hoskins, you have worked and lived in Africa, how
:46:57. > :47:00.dangerous can this be? Just the last point about children being
:47:01. > :47:06.possessed. Believe in evil powers exists in pretty much every
:47:07. > :47:12.religion. It has done since the dawn of civilisation. I was not picking
:47:13. > :47:21.on Africa but you live there. I have been in Bible camps where pastels
:47:22. > :47:26.have tried to exercise demons. There is a problem in Africa in
:47:27. > :47:33.Pentecostal churches where children are being accused of being possessed
:47:34. > :47:45.by the devil. It is not about drawing from sacred texts, it is
:47:46. > :47:49.about children being accused of being witches. It is chilling. I
:47:50. > :47:58.have been involved in some of the toughest cases this country has ever
:47:59. > :48:07.seen. I was in the Old Bailey where two people were on trial for the
:48:08. > :48:18.brutal slaughter of a boy who was branded as a witch. The Bible is
:48:19. > :48:25.very clear. You will know the truth and the truth will set you free. You
:48:26. > :48:31.need to teach the person per word of God. You mentioned they are evil and
:48:32. > :48:34.people are being persecuted. Across Western Europe for hundreds of
:48:35. > :48:38.years, tens of thousands of women were murdered because they were
:48:39. > :48:46.being seen as the daughters of the devil. If you know the truth, Jesus
:48:47. > :49:01.was the first person to deal with demons and set free people. He spoke
:49:02. > :49:04.the word. Reverend Rachel Mann the devil is in the Bible like Baltimore
:49:05. > :49:20.is in Harry Potter. We are talking about
:49:21. > :49:26.interpretation. The Bible makes reference to Satan in a number of
:49:27. > :49:33.passages. It is about interpretation. In the book of Job,
:49:34. > :49:39.I think that Satan is a joke figure. In the book of Revelation,
:49:40. > :49:43.it is not clear that we are talking about some kinds of personified
:49:44. > :49:54.evil. I simply cannot bring myself to believe in a Satan, who is an
:49:55. > :50:03.embodied angel who has been thrown out of heaven. I am a trained
:50:04. > :50:07.philosopher, who has been very influenced by Saint Augustine who
:50:08. > :50:12.sees evil as the absence of good. That kind of God I believe in simply
:50:13. > :50:19.has no is based on some sort of tent who is there. Let's come back to
:50:20. > :50:24.Kate. When you have been on programmes with these debates,
:50:25. > :50:31.you're always very measured. Let me ask another question. People find
:50:32. > :50:38.this very interesting. Do you believe that the devil can appear
:50:39. > :50:46.incorporeal, bodily, form? Do you think that ever happens? It is not
:50:47. > :50:52.mentioned whether the devil appears in a physical or spiritual form.
:50:53. > :50:58.From the testimonies of people who are involved with the world of
:50:59. > :51:04.darkness, they are saying that the devil can come to them as a human
:51:05. > :51:09.being. Really? There are many testimonies of alien abduction as
:51:10. > :51:14.well. That are testimonies of people involved. Whenever I am on the show,
:51:15. > :51:22.someone on the Internet always tells me I am the devil. Well... Let me
:51:23. > :51:27.say this, it is terrifying to hear these kinds of things about children
:51:28. > :51:31.who are possessed. It implies that good and evil are these two distinct
:51:32. > :51:35.full since that operate against each other. The reality is that when
:51:36. > :51:38.Vladimir Putin said gay people are welcome at the Olympics but they
:51:39. > :51:44.should stay away from children, he felt he was doing good in protecting
:51:45. > :51:47.children. Others feel he is doing something very bad in stigmatising
:51:48. > :51:56.gay people. It is not as simple as good versus bad. Life is much more
:51:57. > :52:01.nuanced than that. I might go one step further and say, what surprises
:52:02. > :52:06.me is that here we are in the 21st-century, I have a device in my
:52:07. > :52:08.pocket which enables me to have a face-to-face conversation with
:52:09. > :52:13.somebody who lives in Australia. In this day and age, there are still
:52:14. > :52:24.people who believe in the devil and who believe in God. It is ludicrous.
:52:25. > :52:30.Tell me about the evil eye. It is the concept that evil comes
:52:31. > :52:45.either... This is the Jewish interpretation. It is the oldest
:52:46. > :52:48.religion. No, it is not. Everything that God creates will have to
:52:49. > :52:57.conceive the idea that it comes from love. Everything that God creates
:52:58. > :53:02.comes from love, the good. If there is a concept of evil it is to
:53:03. > :53:08.standardise us and make us believe we have to do better. The concept of
:53:09. > :53:15.the evil eye, people have evil inclinations from within. In the
:53:16. > :53:19.process, it can generate bad things towards other people. We can feel so
:53:20. > :53:24.malevolently disposed toward somebody that that is why we should
:53:25. > :53:32.not be arrogant and Parade GCSE results on the Internet. People have
:53:33. > :53:35.bad feeling and jealousy. There is the acknowledgement there are
:53:36. > :53:42.malevolent forces around that can stay as towards things that we do
:53:43. > :53:45.not want to do and we have to fight against it. Just a quick word
:53:46. > :53:55.because there are hands in the audience up. I think children, if
:53:56. > :53:59.they are under the influence of an evil spirit, I do not think they
:54:00. > :54:13.should be abused. They deserve compassion. I have heard every
:54:14. > :54:18.single pastor say the same thing. By telling children they can be
:54:19. > :54:30.possessed, you are abusing them. Child abuse. Sign it is child abuse.
:54:31. > :54:34.-- it is child abuse. With regard to the comments from the reverend, I
:54:35. > :54:38.find it convenient you can pick and choose parts of the Bible you
:54:39. > :54:46.believe. The way it is used and practised in forces a form of child
:54:47. > :54:56.abuse. That is how the reality -- that is the reality of how the text
:54:57. > :55:00.is interpreted. You said about interpreting the Bible correctly.
:55:01. > :55:04.The problem is, you have different groups interpreting the Bible in
:55:05. > :55:11.different ways. The argument about who is right has resulted in some of
:55:12. > :55:20.those groups... It has resulted in some of our best debates. Debate is
:55:21. > :55:28.part of human nature. The doctor has a very quick point to make. You talk
:55:29. > :55:33.about the structural apparatus of the psyche and the mind can you talk
:55:34. > :55:43.about our drive for power, money and greed. As a Muslim, I see that as
:55:44. > :55:50.the self that incites to evil. What we say is this is something which is
:55:51. > :55:55.innate within everyone. It is bad people doing bad things. Conscience
:55:56. > :56:04.or super ego is what moralisers the negative aspect within every single
:56:05. > :56:11.person. -- moralising is. There are particular religions which believe
:56:12. > :56:19.in God will stop by Des bad stuff happen? -- which believe in God. Why
:56:20. > :56:25.does bad stuff happen? We invented the concept of the devil in order to
:56:26. > :56:31.try and answer the question. The problem is, it has very dangerous
:56:32. > :56:35.results, as we have heard. Whether or not you believed in a
:56:36. > :56:42.personalised devil or the concept, what we have witnessed here today,
:56:43. > :56:46.we have listened to these ladies talking about women being thrown
:56:47. > :56:54.downstairs, that is an evil act. We have seen Channel 4 abusing a
:56:55. > :56:59.community, that is an evil act. The forces of evil are always present
:57:00. > :57:05.and we must never caved in to them. The Bible teaches about eight God of
:57:06. > :57:15.love who calls us... What is the devil? Is it a metaphor? I believe
:57:16. > :57:20.the Bible teaches the forces of evil are always present and we are called
:57:21. > :57:29.to get involved for good. That is why the Church of England chose the
:57:30. > :57:34.wording. They say people are possessed. Communities are using
:57:35. > :57:40.that as an excuse to deal with discipline issues. Homosexuality is
:57:41. > :57:45.a prime example of a young man calling the helpline. A Muslim man,
:57:46. > :57:49.who is homosexual. He was told he was possessed by the devil and
:57:50. > :57:55.whipped frequently to get rid of this devil out of his body. And that
:57:56. > :57:59.was guidance from people within his community. People are using this as
:58:00. > :58:07.an excuse to discipline and punish people and that is the problem. How
:58:08. > :58:11.widespread is this? It is a widespread issue and a hidden issue
:58:12. > :58:19.and we need to root it out. In this country, we are against the death
:58:20. > :58:32.penalty. Why do you want to apply the death penalty to our children in
:58:33. > :58:36.a mother 's womb? As always, debates continue on Twitter. Next week we
:58:37. > :58:40.are back. We will see you soon.