:00:00. > :00:11.Today on the Big Question, Syrian Christian, life imprisonment. Will
:00:12. > :00:30.and modesty. APPLAUSE
:00:31. > :00:34.Good morning. I am Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions. Today
:00:35. > :00:37.we are live from the Bishop's Stortford High School in
:00:38. > :00:41.Hertfordshire. Welcome everybody, to The Big Questions this morning.
:00:42. > :00:46.Thank you very much for coming. Now, this week, the Home Secretary
:00:47. > :00:50.announced Britain would provide refuge for round 5 hundred of the
:00:51. > :00:56.most vulnerable strings of the war in Syria. Germany has pledged to
:00:57. > :01:01.take 11,000 refugees under the UNHCR scheme. So far 2.5 million people
:01:02. > :01:07.have taken refuge in camps in Jordan, Turkey and Lebanon.
:01:08. > :01:10.Some politician, like Nigel Farage of UKIP, and Sir Gerald Howarth of
:01:11. > :01:16.the Conservatives, have called for Britain to do more, especially for
:01:17. > :01:22.our "Fellow Christians." It is Britain's duty to give refuge to
:01:23. > :01:26.Syrian Christians. Alison Ruoff, why do you think Christians should be
:01:27. > :01:30.prioritised? Because there is nowhere else for them to go, in the
:01:31. > :01:35.Middle East. It is very difficult. Many have gone to different
:01:36. > :01:38.countries closer to Syria, but there is still persecution, so I believe
:01:39. > :01:42.we are still a Christian country, the majority of people, still a
:01:43. > :01:45.majority say we are a Christian country in Great Britain, and
:01:46. > :01:50.therefore I think we have a duty to take some of these Syrians, and I
:01:51. > :01:54.would say, let us prioritise Christians, because they are having
:01:55. > :01:59.such a really hard time in terms of purse kuetion. But everyone is
:02:00. > :02:06.having a hard time Of course they are but Christians are in the middle
:02:07. > :02:14.of it. Even is. Well... Prioritising Christian, is that a Christian thing
:02:15. > :02:17.to do? It is in this situation. APPLAUSE
:02:18. > :02:21.Because they are so persecuted throughout the Middle East, and
:02:22. > :02:27.where you have had dictators in the various countries, Iraq, Egypt, and
:02:28. > :02:32.so on, Tunisia, and where they have fallen, and been goesed, therefore
:02:33. > :02:37.the Christians are then attacked big time. Where the dictators have been
:02:38. > :02:40.in power, providing the drisians have kept their heads down, they
:02:41. > :02:48.have been safe. You have had many Christians go from Iraq to Syria for
:02:49. > :02:53.example, and now, the rise in persecution in Iraq is higher and
:02:54. > :02:56.Christianity has been slowly wiped ou. Well quite fast now in the
:02:57. > :03:00.Middle East. That is the birthplace of Jesus, you think what is going on
:03:01. > :03:06.there, it is so sad for Christians to have this awful battle of being
:03:07. > :03:14.between Shias and Sunni Muslims so the Christians are getting the worst
:03:15. > :03:21.of it. A measure of agreement there. , Reverend Nadim Nassar why not? I
:03:22. > :03:25.am from Syria, I afree the Syrians are having a terrible time. For the
:03:26. > :03:29.first time for centuries we are being killed because we are
:03:30. > :03:35.Christians. It is appalling, there is torture. Beheading with swords in
:03:36. > :03:39.the 21st century. If we ask Jesus here, would you like your people for
:03:40. > :03:48.prioritised and being out of the trouble he would say no. Because the
:03:49. > :03:50.suffering, the suffering... APPLAUSE
:03:51. > :03:55.Although I height light because I am a priest I highlight the Christian,
:03:56. > :04:03.but the suffering of the Christians is not in any way more or, more
:04:04. > :04:08.important than the suffering of any Syrian, every Syrian is suffer,
:04:09. > :04:16.Christians should not be prioritises or deplaced from their home. You
:04:17. > :04:18.said, lady, Alison. Alison, that Christians are leaving the Middle
:04:19. > :04:25.East. So we need to support Christian, to stay in the Middle
:04:26. > :04:28.East. That is right. That is what, suddenly, this country remembers
:04:29. > :04:32.that the country is a Christian country, I am sorry, this country is
:04:33. > :04:35.not a Christian country, it is a secular country with some people,
:04:36. > :04:42.when they are desperate for an answer, they say, I am an Anglican.
:04:43. > :04:47.It eis equal to nothing. I lived here for 16 years and I know, we
:04:48. > :04:55.need to support the Christians, to be there. Alison Ruoff we talk of
:04:56. > :05:00.course, about Syria, orthodox, but you still maintain they should have
:05:01. > :05:04.priority. We are talking about 500. That is tiny, it is a drop in the
:05:05. > :05:08.ocean. Of course everybody is suffering in Syria, it is a
:05:09. > :05:13.nightmare. As the Christians are being so targeted, if we are going
:05:14. > :05:17.to have any, they can at least feel safe in this country. Can I stop
:05:18. > :05:22.you, we have a technical problem, but we are carrying on with sounds
:05:23. > :05:27.but it sounds great on the radio. Sorry Alison, carry on. I forgot
:05:28. > :05:33.what I was saying. That is called the age! No, so I do think, as it is
:05:34. > :05:36.such a small number we can prioritise, we are only talking
:05:37. > :05:40.about women and children in particular, who have had such a bad
:05:41. > :05:46.time, so... So women and children who are not Christian, Sunni Muslims
:05:47. > :05:50.or Shia Muslims but women and children should have priority. 500,
:05:51. > :05:56.what difference does it make to millions of people? David. I work
:05:57. > :06:03.for a charity called Refugee Action, we spent 30 years vetling refugee,
:06:04. > :06:11.we did it with Kosovans, Bosnians and we Vettel about 500 people a
:06:12. > :06:55.year from round the world. -- resettle.
:06:56. > :07:00.Lisa Pearce you have seen what is happening, you are seeing what is
:07:01. > :07:03.happening to Christians, across the Middle East. Give us an idea: So
:07:04. > :07:08.right across the Middle East, I mean, it is certainly true they are
:07:09. > :07:13.under enormous pressure, the Syrian minority is the second largest
:07:14. > :07:18.Christian minor any the Middle East after the minority in Egypt, we have
:07:19. > :07:22.seen on the news what has been happening to particularly, the
:07:23. > :07:30.Egyptian Coptic church in Iran, in Iraq, these are the lands in which
:07:31. > :07:35.the Bible was set. Iran and Iraq most of the Old Testament. The road
:07:36. > :07:40.to Damascus. Where Paul became a Christian is in Syria, these are the
:07:41. > :07:44.home lands of Christianity, this is not a western religion, here is not
:07:45. > :07:49.the heartland of Christianity, it is in those nations where they are
:07:50. > :07:53.being pushed out, in Iraq for example in the '90s there were 1.5
:07:54. > :07:58.million Christian, through persecution, they are now down to
:07:59. > :08:04.about 330,000. I spoke to an Iraqi church leader a couple of weeks ago,
:08:05. > :08:08.he the up side the Government has increased the number of Soames to
:08:09. > :08:11.put outside our church to ensure we are not attacked while we worship.
:08:12. > :08:15.That is the up side of Christianity in the Middle East. There is
:08:16. > :08:19.something wrong. I agree with Reverend Nadim Nassar as Christians
:08:20. > :08:23.our two key mannedments are to love God with our heart, mind and
:08:24. > :08:27.strength, and to love our neighbour, and Jesus made it clear our
:08:28. > :08:32.neighbour is anyone in need. On top of that I would say we, in Syria in
:08:33. > :08:37.particular, we need to be careful, to make sure that Christians get the
:08:38. > :08:43.same level of support we want want everyone else to have. You don't
:08:44. > :08:47.find the Christians in the refugee camps because they would rather live
:08:48. > :08:51.in a broken down building or in a shed that go to a camp. Secondly,
:08:52. > :08:56.they feel fear, and there is a lot of evidence, and a lot of anecdotele
:08:57. > :09:01.evidence and a number of people I have met as refugees and spoke to in
:09:02. > :09:07.Lebanon were saying they didn't want to register as refugees because they
:09:08. > :09:12.have fear of reprisal from Assad should he retain power. So we need
:09:13. > :09:16.to be intentional in seeking them out. Absolutely right. Culturally
:09:17. > :09:21.speaking and from the religious background, we do not in Syria or in
:09:22. > :09:26.the Middle East, we do not like to be in a refugee status, or go to
:09:27. > :09:32.camps, and live in tents, what we do, is we absorb that, into our
:09:33. > :09:41.families, churches, monastery, convents, and because of that, I
:09:42. > :09:44.urge everybody to help us, I am the director of the awareness found day,
:09:45. > :09:49.we have projects to help Christians in the Middle East, to stay in the
:09:50. > :09:53.Middle East and play their role. Absolutely. Tim Aker, we know what
:09:54. > :09:56.your leader Nigel Farage has said about this, and I mentioned Sir
:09:57. > :10:00.Gerald Howarth from the Conservatives as well. Make the
:10:01. > :10:05.case, if you would, because I know it is what you believe prioritising
:10:06. > :10:09.Christians. This is still a Christian country, if asked with
:10:10. > :10:13.what faith people identify with, it is Christianity. It has been the
:10:14. > :10:18.British thick to do to offer safe haven. We wouldn't have this if we
:10:19. > :10:23.controlled our borders, but we say that we should offer, it is a crisis
:10:24. > :10:29.what is going on there, that would be made worst if Cameron had his way
:10:30. > :10:35.and started bombing Syria, UKIP was the first party to say... That is a
:10:36. > :10:41.debate we will have before and will have again, why prioritise a
:10:42. > :10:46.particular religious group? There is persecution going on, we are the
:10:47. > :10:52.first ones to say we should be a safe haven for the most persecuted.
:10:53. > :10:57.Sunni Muslim, Shia? There are other states out from they, the Muslims
:10:58. > :11:01.can integrate into better. Jordan, Turkey and so on, we are saying is
:11:02. > :11:06.as a Christian country they can be better... You can't say a Muslim
:11:07. > :11:12.couldn't imintegrate into our country. It is not to discriminate
:11:13. > :11:19.in the UK, you don't solve it in one country by discriminating in another
:11:20. > :11:23.country. We are talking about 500 people. Yes, the lady there, I saw
:11:24. > :11:29.you had your hand up earlier on. Perhaps when we lost picture, but
:11:30. > :11:33.now is your chance. I am an employment lawyer, and I work every
:11:34. > :11:37.day on looking at issues of discrimination in the workplace, and
:11:38. > :11:40.I have to say I am alarmed that anyone can hold a view like this,
:11:41. > :11:46.particularly people that are magistrate, that are leaders. Former
:11:47. > :11:49.magistrate. So, it is fundamentally unethical to differentiate on the
:11:50. > :11:56.grounds of religion, if I were to put it to you, that we are only for
:11:57. > :12:00.example going to take black people from a certain country or take
:12:01. > :12:05.people of a particular sex, how would you foil about that? Because
:12:06. > :12:09.it is -- feel about that, because it is no different these are personal
:12:10. > :12:16.traits that relate to people, like sex, race, colour, their religious
:12:17. > :12:20.belief should not be differentiated. Alison, I want to explore with
:12:21. > :12:24.you... If those people you mentioned, black people, different
:12:25. > :12:27.race, whatever, were the most targeteded in that place, then I
:12:28. > :12:32.would take them. And it doesn't matter, we have to look after the
:12:33. > :12:36.most % Kouted. It it is a small chance, a small opportunity do what
:12:37. > :12:39.is is really light, and to care for Christian people. Because nobody
:12:40. > :12:42.else will. There is a family, to give you an example it is not just
:12:43. > :12:50.about the beliefs it is the danger they are in. It is the danger they
:12:51. > :12:56.are in. If you read to the aid to church website. Disproportionate. A
:12:57. > :12:59.Syrian family moved to ordand during Easter time, they had death threats
:13:00. > :13:04.saying, you move away or we will kill you like your Christ was
:13:05. > :13:11.killed. That is danger. That is right.
:13:12. > :13:14.Vicky Beeching. I think it makes me uncomfortable to here Alison basing
:13:15. > :13:19.this on the Christian faith as a Christian as well, I would say the
:13:20. > :13:23.gospel I read is all about welcoming the unexpected person, the outsider,
:13:24. > :13:27.that God says, the least expected poem are welcome, so for us to start
:13:28. > :13:30.picking and choosing we want people like us, makes me unsettled on the
:13:31. > :13:34.base of the faith. I don't think this is a Christian country any
:13:35. > :13:38.more, row, if you look at YouGov polls it is a mixed country and I
:13:39. > :13:42.don't think we have the right as Christians to claim it as a
:13:43. > :13:48.Christian nation. Sorry, I have a figure here, I thought somebody
:13:49. > :13:54.might say that so I wrote it down. A poll, 56% of people believed this is
:13:55. > :13:59.a Christian country. I would go by church attendance. People practising
:14:00. > :14:04.the faith. I think we have to trust the experts on the ground, in Syria,
:14:05. > :14:07.500 people is a drop in the ocean, it is a very important drop in the
:14:08. > :14:14.ocean, because it is such a small amount it needs to be got right. If
:14:15. > :14:18.you faubg to the scheme, they will say how do you choose, they would
:14:19. > :14:23.say if you target a programme like this you put more Christians at
:14:24. > :14:27.risk, they will be worried about doing a thing because it raises the
:14:28. > :14:34.profeel of the group in the area. So the experts would say this is the
:14:35. > :14:38.wrong thing to do. They are not prioritising Christians, if you have
:14:39. > :14:43.bishops from Syria, they would say do not prioritise Christians because
:14:44. > :14:48.that would even put us in greater danger, because we are e labelled
:14:49. > :14:52.any way agents of the west. So we are, we don't want the west to care
:14:53. > :14:58.for us, in this way, we want the west to care for us, by supporting
:14:59. > :15:07.us where we are, not to take us away from where we are. An interesting
:15:08. > :15:14.concept. I want to speak to you, Tim, in a second. The concept is
:15:15. > :15:16.almost a reflection of the Muslim idea of a Christian brotherhood, the
:15:17. > :15:22.Christian community across the nation. People within that should
:15:23. > :15:26.have special care. That seems to be what you were saying. Not really.
:15:27. > :15:30.There comes a point when Christians go on turning the other cheek, time
:15:31. > :15:36.after time, and I think there comes a point where we actually say,
:15:37. > :15:40.enough is enough. 500 is just so tiny. If we are going to have people
:15:41. > :15:45.who have been so badly treated and so hurt and damaged, let's look
:15:46. > :15:48.after these people for once. We never look after them normally. The
:15:49. > :15:53.lady at the back. You have the microphone. Good morning. I actually
:15:54. > :16:03.think we should be pretty ashamed of ourselves for only taking 500.
:16:04. > :16:09.Germany are taking 11,000. Your leader, Tim, has spoken about the
:16:10. > :16:14.social impact. Do you think the social impact, it would be easier to
:16:15. > :16:24.integrate Christians? Alison is nodding in agreement. We have a
:16:25. > :16:27.problem in this country... We're talking about Armenian Orthodox,
:16:28. > :16:30.Syrian Orthodox, they are not going to be joining Alison on the sin
:16:31. > :16:36.order of the Church of England. They might. Why should they? Why don't we
:16:37. > :16:42.respect their identity as Christians? Why should I ask an
:16:43. > :16:48.orthodox to become Anglican in order to be a proper Christian humour I am
:16:49. > :16:53.not asking them to become Anglican. But do not want to join this an odd.
:16:54. > :16:56.These numbers are on a tiny scale. If we're talking about helping the
:16:57. > :17:00.church in Syria, we need to be concerned about the fact that Geneva
:17:01. > :17:05.is happening at the moment. It is looking at the future of Syria. The
:17:06. > :17:09.Christian population is 10%. There is no Christian representation at
:17:10. > :17:14.Geneva. We took a petition of 300,000 concerned people to the UN
:17:15. > :17:17.and met with all five of the permanent missions before Christmas.
:17:18. > :17:21.All of them acknowledge that the church is not there and they were
:17:22. > :17:25.not represented. They said they do not know what to do about it. That
:17:26. > :17:29.is not good enough. The UK plays a key role in the Security Council and
:17:30. > :17:34.we should be putting more energy into making sure that there are
:17:35. > :17:36.Christian voices at the table. Not disproportionate representation,
:17:37. > :17:45.their representation. Secondly, our aid is to strip you to... There is a
:17:46. > :17:48.political point. -- our aid is distributed. We're talking about
:17:49. > :17:53.persecution in danger. Who paraded that? The West aided Al-Qaeda to be
:17:54. > :17:59.in Syria. The double standards of the West. On one hand, Al-Qaeda is a
:18:00. > :18:05.terrorist organisation and on the other hand, Al-Qaeda is OK in Syria
:18:06. > :18:09.because Al-Qaeda is fighting Assad. I want to ask one more question of
:18:10. > :18:15.Alison. I would like to make this the last point. Bishop Nad-e-Ali and
:18:16. > :18:18.George Keely and others, we have heard this line of thought that
:18:19. > :18:30.distance in this country are persecuted. Marginalised. Do you
:18:31. > :18:37.condemn those words? No. When you look at Syria, do you not think it
:18:38. > :18:40.cheapens the term? Do not think that Christians are being persecuted in
:18:41. > :18:43.this country but it is marginalisation and it is becoming
:18:44. > :18:48.more and more. Ultimately, that will lead to prosecution if it is allowed
:18:49. > :18:52.to continue. What will happen? We will become anything but a Christian
:18:53. > :18:58.country. That is not persecution. It is a case of you being able to say
:18:59. > :19:00.anything about Christians, mocking God as much as you like in this
:19:01. > :19:11.country. Say something about all our, Islam, and you have the biggest
:19:12. > :19:13.row possible. -- Allah. There's been a kerfuffle this week about
:19:14. > :19:18.something that happened on the programme a of weeks ago. We are
:19:19. > :19:25.doing religion and God next week. I will have to comeback! It is never
:19:26. > :19:30.too soon. Thank you all very much indeed. We have to leave it there.
:19:31. > :19:31.If you have something to say about that debate, logon to
:19:32. > :19:35.bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions, and follow the link to where you can
:19:36. > :19:41.join in the discussion online. Or contribute on Twitter. We're also
:19:42. > :19:43.debating live this morning from Bishop's Stortford. Should some life
:19:44. > :19:47.sentences be for life? And, "Should women dress modestly?" So get
:19:48. > :19:50.tweeting or emailing on those topics now or send us any other ideas or
:19:51. > :19:55.thoughts you may have about the show.
:19:56. > :20:00.Last summer the European Court of Human Rights ruled that British
:20:01. > :20:06.Justice Secretaries could no longer issue or uphold "whole life orders"
:20:07. > :20:09.to some convicted murderers. They said such sentences were inhuman and
:20:10. > :20:18.degrading unless there is the possibility of an earlier review or
:20:19. > :20:20.release. The case upheld an appeal brought by whole-life prisoners
:20:21. > :20:26.Jeremy Bamber, Douglas Vinter, and Peter Moore. Between them, these
:20:27. > :20:30.three men were convicted for 11 murders. Currently 50 prisoners are
:20:31. > :20:33.serving whole life tariffs in England and Wales, including Ian
:20:34. > :20:49.Brady, Dennis Nilsen and Robert Black. Should some life sentences be
:20:50. > :20:53.for life? Rupert Myers, let me remind you what the European Court
:20:54. > :20:56.said. If you take away any chance of sentence review release, whatever
:20:57. > :21:02.your crime, it is inhumane and degrading. Yes. And that was under
:21:03. > :21:04.Article three of the European Convention which was originally
:21:05. > :21:08.designed to deal with cases of torture and very severe
:21:09. > :21:16.incarceration. It has been broadened in this judgement, I think, to
:21:17. > :21:20.include those 50 or so people locked up out of a prison publishing of
:21:21. > :21:23.85,000 in the UK. It is important to remember that for almost every
:21:24. > :21:28.prisoner, they will be released and rehabilitated. The European Court
:21:29. > :21:33.said they should be given hope. They all have that hope as has been
:21:34. > :21:37.argued at the moment. Because they can all appeal to the Secretary of
:21:38. > :21:41.State on grounds of compassionate release. We're not talking about 50
:21:42. > :21:45.murderers because people who just commit murder, and I'm sorry to say
:21:46. > :21:50.that but we are talking about a very inclusive section of the prison
:21:51. > :21:54.publishing, they are released on licence. These 50 are mostly people
:21:55. > :21:57.who have gone on to commit further at Russia's acts on licence,
:21:58. > :22:02.including murder and child abuse. We're talking about people who have
:22:03. > :22:09.already had that possibility of redemption and rehabilitation and
:22:10. > :22:12.they have abused that privilege and gone back into incarceration. And
:22:13. > :22:16.they can still appeal for compassionate release. People like
:22:17. > :22:22.Robert Black, saying he should be given hope and the possibility of
:22:23. > :22:24.review and release. You think, why should a man who kidnapped little
:22:25. > :22:29.girls and dumped their bodies by the motorway, why should he be given
:22:30. > :22:35.hope? From a Christian perspective? I dealt with a life sentence in my
:22:36. > :22:44.church. And I've visited the person more than once. The family really
:22:45. > :22:48.suffered, really really suffered, to get the message to the court and the
:22:49. > :22:57.system that this person might need a hospital rather than a prison. And
:22:58. > :23:03.after a fight, for years and years, from the worst prison, they move
:23:04. > :23:08.this person to a hospital and in the hospital, his situation changed
:23:09. > :23:16.dramatically. I've visited him and they know him personally. -- I know
:23:17. > :23:20.him. God works through us with redemption. Why should Robert Black
:23:21. > :23:30.be given hope? All human beings are entitled to hope. John, Penny, your
:23:31. > :23:36.daughter was 26, the mother of imaging, who was eight months old.
:23:37. > :23:43.Murdered by her partner. -- Imogen. He was already on bail for assault
:23:44. > :23:48.and rape. Does he deserve hope? Absolutely not. He has been jailed
:23:49. > :23:55.for life but it is no life. It is part of his life. My daughter lost
:23:56. > :24:01.her life and he did not respect human rights, her right for basic
:24:02. > :24:05.survival. He did not respect his daughter's right to have a mother to
:24:06. > :24:10.bring her up. And yet here he is with hope that in 27 years time, he
:24:11. > :24:15.could get out of prison. He was jailed for life but life does not
:24:16. > :24:20.mean life. And this is where a lot of victims that I'm representing
:24:21. > :24:23.today are saying that life should mean life. Do not call it a life
:24:24. > :24:28.sentence in court if it does not mean life. More people should be on
:24:29. > :24:33.the whole life tariff or they should instigate, David Cameron had this
:24:34. > :24:40.idea of sentencing people for 100 years without review until 80 years
:24:41. > :24:44.into the sentence. They should come out of prison in a wooden box. There
:24:45. > :24:48.has to be a deterrent factor in the sentencing system. Because capital
:24:49. > :24:56.punishment is not on the agenda, whole life tariffs are the next
:24:57. > :25:01.thing that will prevent people from thinking about committing
:25:02. > :25:07.atrocities. Deterrent is about changing. There is actually no hope
:25:08. > :25:13.for change. For a start, it is a punishment system, not... But if the
:25:14. > :25:19.punishment is they are... What Penny said, the only way they should come
:25:20. > :25:26.out of prison is to use her words, in a box. As a Christian, how do you
:25:27. > :25:30.respond to that? I am in Christian. My heart is broken for the situation
:25:31. > :25:35.that occurs, but everyone of us as to identify with our own following
:25:36. > :25:39.this, and I'd have to look at the people who commit these crimes and
:25:40. > :25:45.think, that could be me -- fallenness. In the Christian
:25:46. > :25:51.tradition, it is repentance, making a turnaround. These offenders have
:25:52. > :26:01.already shown that they are willing to take a human life. But the result
:26:02. > :26:05.was hope for change. I'm sorry. These people have already taken a
:26:06. > :26:09.human life and the thought of the offenders that have killed our
:26:10. > :26:13.daughter and other people's loved ones, the thought of them getting
:26:14. > :26:17.out, our fear is that they will reoffender, that he will be freed to
:26:18. > :26:22.be a perpetrator again, a predator again, because he will, we have no
:26:23. > :26:31.doubt about it, latch onto the next woman he finds and that lady will
:26:32. > :26:37.find herself in the same position. Lynne and Mick, your son was
:26:38. > :26:41.murdered in 2002. The people who murdered him have not shown any room
:26:42. > :26:44.or s am I think I'm right in saying that. One of them was released and
:26:45. > :26:49.went straight back in, and yet you believe that there should be the
:26:50. > :26:56.possibility of review and release for these murderers. I've changed my
:26:57. > :27:00.mind, really. I would said the exact same thing as John and Penny but you
:27:01. > :27:06.can only go by your own experience and for us, for years after Paul was
:27:07. > :27:09.killed, were asked to go into prison and share our story with the men
:27:10. > :27:16.there. And they were all from the life unit. It was like meeting the
:27:17. > :27:20.people who had killed our son. But they were not what we were expecting
:27:21. > :27:23.and we were not what they were expecting. It was a powerful meeting
:27:24. > :27:32.of victims and offenders. And between us, I think we help each
:27:33. > :27:37.other. We come from a positive position, and we have received
:27:38. > :27:43.comfort. We have had hundreds of letters of the change that has taken
:27:44. > :27:50.place in the lives. We believe in restorative justice and redemption.
:27:51. > :27:55.The possibility for all murderers? It has to include everyone. Although
:27:56. > :28:02.the possibility is there, the parole board and the review board is there
:28:03. > :28:09.to safeguard against extreme violence and extreme cases. For us,
:28:10. > :28:16.we do not go that far. You can only do what you do and we see a lot of
:28:17. > :28:21.hope in the prisoners. We have spoken to thousands of prisoners and
:28:22. > :28:24.many of them are very positive because they have never had the
:28:25. > :28:30.realisation of what their crime was about. A lot of them, in a moment,
:28:31. > :28:35.if they had the moment again would never commit the crime. In the
:28:36. > :28:41.instance of a premeditated murder where it is calculate it and
:28:42. > :28:47.cold-blooded, it seems inherently wrong that somebody who was prepared
:28:48. > :28:52.to take someone's human rights to life can then rely on human rights
:28:53. > :29:01.legislation to protect them and give them hope in their life that they
:29:02. > :29:07.may be released. As victims, we are living that life sentence. On the
:29:08. > :29:14.outside. It affects us everyday, the pain and suffering that we go
:29:15. > :29:19.through constantly, knowing what happened to our loved ones. We need
:29:20. > :29:26.to know that the people who carried out these atrocious crimes are
:29:27. > :29:33.getting punished and are being dealt with and that we will be protected
:29:34. > :29:40.by his incarceration or whoever it is, that the public are protected in
:29:41. > :29:45.the future. Let us go to the audience. Gentleman
:29:46. > :29:48.there at the back. I think the language of life sentences is
:29:49. > :29:52.unfortunate. The punishment for theft is not theft, and the
:29:53. > :29:56.punishment for rape is not rape, but if we take someone's life but do we
:29:57. > :30:02.as a society have the right to take that person's life? I don't think we
:30:03. > :30:06.can say... That is not what we are discussing. I don't think we can say
:30:07. > :30:12.capital punishment is off the table and yet someone should leave prison
:30:13. > :30:24.in a box. There should be a deterrent. It was a similar point to
:30:25. > :30:27.that. I want to... Tim Aker. A system of law where the, they see
:30:28. > :30:30.somebody who has committed a terrible crime and they are given a
:30:31. > :30:34.sentence, but they don't serve that sentence. Can't people change? If it
:30:35. > :30:38.is a life sentence it should mean life. The sentence should mean what
:30:39. > :30:42.it says, if you are given eight years you serve eight years. You
:30:43. > :30:46.don't understand the point. We are not talking about people who have
:30:47. > :30:49.committed criminal offence and been sentenced to life. We are talking
:30:50. > :30:53.about a small number of prisoners who are given release and on
:30:54. > :30:57.license, commit further offence, so it isn't a case of deterrence, these
:30:58. > :31:03.people who have been in jail. Know what it is like and commit murder
:31:04. > :31:10.again. I think it is really, I think in
:31:11. > :31:16.such a serious era, I think one of the main things that is jumping out
:31:17. > :31:20.to me is this idea when people go to jail, and they are incarcerated. I
:31:21. > :31:23.think there is something seriously wrong in the terms of the
:31:24. > :31:28.rehabilitation process, regardless of how long that person is in jail,
:31:29. > :31:33.and regardless of what the crime is s because from what I have studied,
:31:34. > :31:36.there are many poem who go into jail, they commit a crime. They come
:31:37. > :31:42.out. They get stuck in a cycle and they commit the same act again,
:31:43. > :31:46.whether that is theft... Someone who might be able to address that is
:31:47. > :31:51.Richard. You were in for murder, it was a robbery, what would the effect
:31:52. > :31:57.be if hope was taken away for more prisoners than at the moment, in the
:31:58. > :32:05.criminal justice system? If it was taken away? It would... For me, How
:32:06. > :32:09.do you mean, a mess? It would create a blood bath. If you take hope away
:32:10. > :32:13.from prisonerings and just say that is it, that is your lot, life means
:32:14. > :32:18.life, you are never getting out, do what you like, they will. They will
:32:19. > :32:24.do exactly what they like, they have nothing do but keep them in jail. So
:32:25. > :32:36.that light... That light at the end of the tunnel keeps order, are you
:32:37. > :32:40.saying that? Yes No. He has been in prison. What is the value of life
:32:41. > :32:45.when you have no hope? You can kill, you can kill yourself, you can kill
:32:46. > :32:56.other, you can do everything. Do whatever you like. Can you do better
:32:57. > :33:01.than jail? Alison Ruoff. I think, I have visited many prisons over the
:33:02. > :33:04.time I was a magistrate, and admittedly I couldn't send anyone to
:33:05. > :33:08.prison for life, but at the same time, I actually feel having visited
:33:09. > :33:14.these people, they are doing all sorts of amazing things in prison,
:33:15. > :33:20.lifer, they are doing degrees and further degrees, and... What, go on.
:33:21. > :33:26.They are getting so much support, they don't have to worry, I agree, I
:33:27. > :33:32.would also impose life meaning life on people who shoot police officers
:33:33. > :33:39.doing their job. It should mean life. As a committed Christian, if
:33:40. > :33:46.somebody were to find Jesus and totally transform their life, would
:33:47. > :33:55.would you not welcome their position in the community so they can spread
:33:56. > :34:01.the world. Of course. That would involve... Jesus, you know, he God
:34:02. > :34:05.appeared to him and he was used to further the church. He wrote half of
:34:06. > :34:10.the New Testament. Is that is not a redemption story and a story God can
:34:11. > :34:15.turn the life of anybody round, I don't know what is. People have a
:34:16. > :34:18.choice on how they behave. If they are willing do that may must take
:34:19. > :34:22.the consequence, and if they are jailed for life they should be
:34:23. > :34:28.jailed for life. Sorry, Penny might be was trying to come in earlier. .
:34:29. > :34:34.I saw you agreeing with Richard's point if hope was taken away. There
:34:35. > :34:39.would be chaos, what I wanted to say was victims now do have an
:34:40. > :34:43.opportunity to have a restorative justice meeting with the victim, and
:34:44. > :34:49.all I can say is that has been a person who has taken that place,
:34:50. > :34:54.with many prisoners, there is an atmosphere and electricity when an
:34:55. > :34:59.offender and a victim come together, and the results from it are
:35:00. > :35:03.absolutely wonderful. Penny, what do you think? I agree that restorative
:35:04. > :35:08.justice has a place within the justice system. It is not for
:35:09. > :35:14.everyone. It is not for everyone. How do we decide which prisoner
:35:15. > :35:17.could be released or not? If there is no rehabilitation, plus
:35:18. > :35:22.punishment, what you are talking about out of hurt, we understand and
:35:23. > :35:28.appreciate, but with the punishment system, there should be
:35:29. > :35:32.rehabilitation, and hope system. So Dennis Nilsen he must have hope?
:35:33. > :35:36.Everybody must have hope. I have seen the cooking pots in the museum,
:35:37. > :35:39.where Dennis Nilsen actually cut up his victims, and had them on the
:35:40. > :35:47.cooker, I have seen the cooker, the whole lot. Would you let that man
:35:48. > :35:51.out? Of course not. Why not? Wait, Vicky Beeching you say why not? I
:35:52. > :35:57.think again on a Christian foundation, the gospel is based on
:35:58. > :36:01.transformation. Why is anybody beyond the help of God? What you are
:36:02. > :36:06.saying is here God is not powerful enough to change that person's life.
:36:07. > :36:12.Father, people may have dremion in the afterlife and you may believe
:36:13. > :36:16.that, but rates of reSid vism among these people suggest that in real
:36:17. > :36:20.life there are people with serious social logical and psychological
:36:21. > :36:24.conditions who are best for our protection in a hospital, not
:36:25. > :36:28.necessarily a prison but are kept there for the rest of their lives
:36:29. > :36:34.for the public safety. APPLAUSE.
:36:35. > :36:37.Think we are confusing two issue, we are confusing the issue of hope with
:36:38. > :36:41.the eschew of taking appropriate measures to ensure the safety of the
:36:42. > :36:46.public, I think in terms of hope, if we don't want anyone to deny us hope
:36:47. > :36:51.we can't deny hope to other people. I think we cannot make a decision...
:36:52. > :36:55.Would it be good to deny hope to Dennis Nilsen? We can't make a
:36:56. > :37:00.decision to deny hope, because otherwise we might be on the
:37:01. > :37:04.receiving end, on the other hand, if people, if people are in the process
:37:05. > :37:09.of possibly being let out of prison, it is our duty and the Prison
:37:10. > :37:14.Service's Dowty to make sure those people are not in endangering the
:37:15. > :37:19.public, clearly we have to do so. Speaking as a prison chaplain. I was
:37:20. > :37:23.agreeing and saying it is something that has to be reviewed. Nobody
:37:24. > :37:27.should be let out of prison if there is the experts believe there is any
:37:28. > :37:31.significant chance of them reoffending. That hoz to be
:37:32. > :37:37.different from saying I am punishing you buzz of my grief. There are
:37:38. > :37:40.murderers who were escaping, the police immediately put out warnings
:37:41. > :37:47.not to approach these people. What were they doing in an open prison?
:37:48. > :37:52.Let us ask the audience. Why not use hope as a method of control. So give
:37:53. > :37:56.Dennis Nilsen hope but only as lip service keep him controlled in
:37:57. > :38:01.prison. Yes, with the glasses. Morning. Morning, it sound like as
:38:02. > :38:07.we have heard from Richard, that if we deny people hope, what we are
:38:08. > :38:11.doing is imposing a kind of capital punishment.
:38:12. > :38:15.Is that, is that, Richard says it is a life sentence. Tim Aker, what do
:38:16. > :38:20.you think about that point? If you commit the worse crimes you should
:38:21. > :38:25.be in there for life. Think of the victim, think of the public safety,
:38:26. > :38:28.those should be the two chief considerations.
:38:29. > :38:33.When it comes to sentencing. What about, what about... Sorry John. Why
:38:34. > :38:38.are people more concerned with the hope of people who commit these
:38:39. > :38:48.crimes, then for the victims life, they have taken, they have no longer
:38:49. > :38:52.got the hope of living out their loved, living with their loved one,
:38:53. > :38:56.the victim, their family, their friends, their colleagues, they are
:38:57. > :39:01.condemned to look back at what happened. What about Imogen, as a
:39:02. > :39:06.final thought? She was eight months old. Is she four or five now? Hang
:39:07. > :39:11.on, I am talking about the little girl. Absolutely. He came to kill
:39:12. > :39:16.that baby the day after he murdered our daughter. His car was full of
:39:17. > :39:20.petrol, and he had lighters and matches and he wasn't a smokerings
:39:21. > :39:26.he had no means of removing that baby safely in that car. To us, it
:39:27. > :39:31.is the worry that this man may get out in the future -- smoker. And the
:39:32. > :39:37.danger that he will put other people, like our daughter in,
:39:38. > :39:43.because he cannot possibly be rehabilitated. He is a predator. You
:39:44. > :39:47.know, we have to be seen as a country, if we have got a credible
:39:48. > :39:52.justice system we have to make sure that the sentences given are life
:39:53. > :39:56.sentence, must mean life it is a joke. That people are murdering and
:39:57. > :40:00.getting out. Thank you all very much indeed.
:40:01. > :40:06.APPLAUSE Thank you.
:40:07. > :40:10.You can join in all the debates by logging on to the website. Follow
:40:11. > :40:17.the link to the online discussion, you can tweet using the hashtag.
:40:18. > :40:22.Tell us what you any about our last Big Question as well. Scores have,
:40:23. > :40:33.the question is should women dress modestly, if you would like to be in
:40:34. > :40:38.the audience as a future show you can e-mail the address below.
:40:39. > :40:56.This is why we are discussing it, should women dress modestly.
:40:57. > :41:02.Yesterday was World Hijab Day. So should women follow that example,
:41:03. > :41:06.and dress modestly, Sarah, you have some concernsn't, don't you, you are
:41:07. > :41:09.not, it is always down to perpetrator of a crime, it is not a
:41:10. > :41:14.question of don't be raped, it is a question of don't rape. You make
:41:15. > :41:20.that very clear, are you concerned about the way some women dress? What
:41:21. > :41:24.I would say is when we are talking about modesty, it is a bigger
:41:25. > :41:29.question, because it is about what is a human being? A human being is a
:41:30. > :41:33.mystery, a combination of matter and spirit, and something mysterious and
:41:34. > :41:39.wonderful and beautiful, so if we are asking how in of any of us
:41:40. > :41:44.dress, we have to say what does it say about who I am, what I am trying
:41:45. > :41:48.to be. Modesty is about how I look at other people, so it is in any
:41:49. > :41:52.eyes and yours looking at me, whatever we are wearing, so my
:41:53. > :41:55.concern would be more with the commercialisation of the appearance
:41:56. > :41:58.of women to make them lock like objects, so what they are trained to
:41:59. > :42:02.wear, what children think it's a good idea to wear, is making them
:42:03. > :42:08.lock a little bit more like objects we should lock at differently. Isn't
:42:09. > :42:15.this in danger of edging towards the view of the sqrelz, the temptress,
:42:16. > :42:20.you think it is opposite of that? I think it is. It is saying we are
:42:21. > :42:24.responsible for how we choose to appear the other, and no-one is
:42:25. > :42:28.imposing how anyone else should dress, I welcome World Hijab Day,
:42:29. > :42:33.because it gives people the chance to say we choose to express our
:42:34. > :42:38.femininity in in way and it is something interior, but not saying
:42:39. > :42:43.that anybody should be imposing what you wear, I am saying be aware of
:42:44. > :42:47.how it expressing your interior life, your interior life is
:42:48. > :42:53.important, we are in a world that is obsessed with exterior appearances.
:42:54. > :42:58.Is modesty empowerment? . It is an empowerment. It is a fruit of the
:42:59. > :43:02.Holy Spirit. In the Catholic sense, it is how you become who you are, it
:43:03. > :43:06.is a grace. It's a grace that expressing how do I become even more
:43:07. > :43:10.this mysterious thing that is spirit, that is sexual, this is
:43:11. > :43:14.matter, and it is an open conversation about how I look at you
:43:15. > :43:21.and how you look at me and what we become.
:43:22. > :43:34.One second please. I know lots of people are dying to
:43:35. > :43:40.come in. I want to speak to Tommo. You are the editor? I am the editor
:43:41. > :43:45.in chief of an online magazine called Hot Hot. We tell people what
:43:46. > :43:48.trend are going on and work as a photographer for loads of fashion
:43:49. > :43:53.brands round the world, and I guess I am in charge of creating an image
:43:54. > :43:57.at the end of the day. But, you know, if the question should women
:43:58. > :44:02.dress more modest? I mean, no, I mean people should dress the way
:44:03. > :44:06.they want. As you said, you know, it is, it is, you know you are putting
:44:07. > :44:10.for Bard your personality, when you wake up and go and do whatever you
:44:11. > :44:14.are doing, you put on whatever you think, whatever you are comfortable
:44:15. > :44:17.in. That is what fashion is about. The culture you are creating with
:44:18. > :44:21.your magazine, I am not saying we shouldn't have it, but we have to be
:44:22. > :44:25.aware the effect it has, all of us are desperate to be liked and
:44:26. > :44:29.approved of so some extent. Modesty is a statement of how much can I be
:44:30. > :44:34.detached from how I ought to dress? The kind of shift that is taking
:44:35. > :44:40.place because of the accept built of your kind of magazine means young
:44:41. > :44:45.girls who put YouTube clips out saying am I hot or not? Children are
:44:46. > :44:50.obsessed with their sexuality. I didn't think of it when I was 16,
:44:51. > :44:54.they are obsessed to that. You have added to that. Think I think you
:44:55. > :45:01.were thinking of that when you were 16. I thought about my A-level
:45:02. > :45:06.results, I thought about having having fun, singing, playing the
:45:07. > :45:11.magistrate. Alison, you were a magistrate, if somebody came in and
:45:12. > :45:19.had been, assaulted or whatever, and would you make a judgment based on
:45:20. > :45:24.the way they had been dressed? If they were standing before me, the
:45:25. > :45:29.victim? You probably would not see the victim necessarily. You cannot
:45:30. > :45:37.absolutely say that but... The defence mentioned it. Is that a
:45:38. > :45:46.factor? It might be? How. Absolutely not. S blame. If I was sitting on
:45:47. > :45:58.the tube and icy people with black tights and leggings and a skirt...
:45:59. > :46:02.-- absolutely not. I feel that we have to be careful. If the top is up
:46:03. > :46:07.to here and the people sitting opposite see the black tights but
:46:08. > :46:11.there is a gap, that is not helping any man sitting opposite. Thank
:46:12. > :46:21.heavens you have retired as a magistrate! That is outrageous.
:46:22. > :46:29.Women must think of how they are looking. Let her finish. Women must
:46:30. > :46:34.consider these things. You say it is not fair on men? Are men are
:46:35. > :46:39.uncontrollable animals? Are we being sexist? Say what you like but men
:46:40. > :46:46.are completely different... I can't, believe you me! Men are completely
:46:47. > :46:56.different from women. Men are switched on like that. Wait, wait
:46:57. > :46:59.stomach men and women are fundamentally different in that way?
:47:00. > :47:05.Men can be switched on and women cannot? It puts the onus on the
:47:06. > :47:09.women, which throughout history has happened, especially in the
:47:10. > :47:14.tradition of Christianity. If you look at and indeed, Eve was called a
:47:15. > :47:17.temptress. Women have been given the responsibility to make things OK for
:47:18. > :47:22.men and many to have the responsibility. We need to address
:47:23. > :47:32.how we choose. Let's go to something more modern. Modesty is described
:47:33. > :47:35.for women, defined by society, by men. This is the scrum and nation
:47:36. > :47:40.against women. Do not think we should allow that. I think there
:47:41. > :47:48.should be certain mores. If I go into the synagogue, I would expect
:47:49. > :47:55.men and women to dress respectably of the place they are in. But to
:47:56. > :48:00.make women responsible for the urges of men is a bad state. I am not
:48:01. > :48:05.making men responsible for my urges. If I have bad urges, I will educate
:48:06. > :48:07.myself. If men have urges to rape women, I think they should be
:48:08. > :48:15.educated rather than making women responsible. Let me make this point.
:48:16. > :48:23.Vicky Beeching, 93% of the signals that we give out an nonverbal
:48:24. > :48:28.signals. We are animals, we are part of the animal kingdom. Is it not
:48:29. > :48:33.appropriate, the signals that you give out, from the way you dress? It
:48:34. > :48:37.is about being free to be yourself and not living in response to
:48:38. > :48:42.another person. Throughout history, women have been measured against
:48:43. > :48:44.men. It is about us taking responsibility in the context of how
:48:45. > :48:49.a man responds. We all need to respect each other. This is a very
:48:50. > :48:53.equal society and we need to move away from the kind of things that
:48:54. > :48:56.Alison is saying and thinking that men are animals that can only
:48:57. > :49:02.respond in a certain way. We need to give them respect as free choice
:49:03. > :49:06.makers. But we must be wise. We are wise but that is the scrum and a
:49:07. > :49:10.tree. If a woman is wearing a short skirt and a small top, men will look
:49:11. > :49:14.but what if she is wearing a fabulous dress and she looks
:49:15. > :49:23.amazing, men will give the same attention. Of course but it is not
:49:24. > :49:28.so obvious. What about men? If the guy has a rippling, much like
:49:29. > :49:39.myself, a rippling six-pack? Ask somebody else! Would you be tempted?
:49:40. > :49:46.Let me go to Younis. I need to escape from that question. You are
:49:47. > :49:51.Muslim but also in model. Some would say you are maybe caught between two
:49:52. > :49:56.worlds. I am also a presenter. Are you caught between two worlds? The
:49:57. > :50:01.question we are discussing is should women be more modest and I think
:50:02. > :50:05.there are a couple of things to say. I 100% believe in free will because
:50:06. > :50:08.of what I believe on. Do not believe that it is my place to judge anybody
:50:09. > :50:14.based on how they present themselves. I think that is
:50:15. > :50:17.important. I do not think... For most of my life I've believed that
:50:18. > :50:22.people do not judge you based on how you dressed. I was a tomboy when I
:50:23. > :50:27.was growing up. But I have learned as I have got older that that is not
:50:28. > :50:30.actually the case. The fact of the matter is there is a big difference
:50:31. > :50:37.in terms of how someone will treat me about what then the street
:50:38. > :50:42.wearing a beanie and less attractive clothing, as opposed to if Wear
:50:43. > :50:46.something that is a little bit more attractive. And I do think that
:50:47. > :50:57.sometimes people can be naive to that. But I do not, for example, if
:50:58. > :51:00.I chose to buy a Lamborghini or something different, people are
:51:01. > :51:05.going to look. I think it is important that everybody understands
:51:06. > :51:09.that how you choose to project yourself can attract more attention
:51:10. > :51:16.to you. But do not believe that that gives anybody the right to infringe
:51:17. > :51:28.your personal space. And also, I would like to say that with the way
:51:29. > :51:31.that women choose to dress, one thing that is quite interesting
:51:32. > :51:36.about what everybody said is that we tend to focus on the effects of how
:51:37. > :51:43.you dress on men as if men are going to maybe attack you. It also affects
:51:44. > :51:51.how you dress on other women. I have actually found, as a consequence of
:51:52. > :51:54.being raised Christian and practising Islam, that actually
:51:55. > :51:59.people do not seem to recognise that the way that you dress as a woman,
:52:00. > :52:03.if you are white consultations and very attractive, which is not your
:52:04. > :52:11.fault, it can cause issues between you and other women. -- quite
:52:12. > :52:20.ostentatious. And you wore a jab yesterday, Vicky? What was your
:52:21. > :52:24.experience like? -- hijab. I was aware that was going into it in a
:52:25. > :52:28.feminist setting. Eye when their not to document my own experience but to
:52:29. > :52:33.watch and learn and build relationships with Muslim friends.
:52:34. > :52:36.The main thing I've heard from them, and it is their story want to tell,
:52:37. > :52:40.was that many of them choose to wear the veil as a in a statement. And
:52:41. > :52:47.they get abused because people judge them and think that they are
:52:48. > :52:50.oppressed and suppressed. For them, that is what being a woman looks
:52:51. > :52:55.like all stop they want to say, this is my radical statement and modesty
:52:56. > :52:59.looks like this. I feel beautiful and if you like I am honouring God.
:53:00. > :53:06.That is their right and that is their feminism. I would say that
:53:07. > :53:14.absolutely that is their right. Is that the same for the Burka? It
:53:15. > :53:23.depends on personal choice. We have done that debate many times. I bet
:53:24. > :53:26.we will do it again. Vicky, it is fascinating that you found it
:53:27. > :53:34.something that was empowering. For them. I think it is reverse
:53:35. > :53:39.persecution. Many of us would put our perceptions onto people and
:53:40. > :53:44.think that that is, if a woman is closed that she needs to be rescued
:53:45. > :53:46.and brought into the modern era, but many Muslim women feel more
:53:47. > :53:51.liberated by having the freedom to wear it. Many of them told me that
:53:52. > :53:54.the husbands do not want them to wear it because they feel it
:53:55. > :53:57.reflects badly. Have you ever seen the way that somebody is dressed and
:53:58. > :54:04.thought, you should not be dressed like that? I try not to. Have you
:54:05. > :54:08.ever felt like that? I haven't. I think people should make their own
:54:09. > :54:13.expression separate from the response it will get. Isn't that
:54:14. > :54:18.part of what being British is all about? Surely our British culture is
:54:19. > :54:20.based on doing the right thing, by which mean refugees regardless of
:54:21. > :54:26.what they believe in, but also doing the right thing if you address
:54:27. > :54:33.appallingly. It is a fundamental British rights to do so. -- doing
:54:34. > :54:38.the right thing whilst dressed appallingly. My feeling is that as
:54:39. > :54:42.human beings we instantly look at somebody with our eyes and form an
:54:43. > :54:48.opinion. Whether we want to form that opinion or not, it is an
:54:49. > :54:53.unconscious or pinion. The first seconds, we have formed an opinion.
:54:54. > :54:57.-- unconscious opinion. It does not matter what they are wearing, it is
:54:58. > :55:02.human nature. We need to take a step back and get to know the person, if
:55:03. > :55:09.you have the time, to be able to form a proper opinion. I think that
:55:10. > :55:17.clothes and fashion, judgement is there all the time. The gentleman
:55:18. > :55:21.over there. Me? The apostle Paul said that all things are permissible
:55:22. > :55:26.but not all things are helpful. Adding we have talked about having
:55:27. > :55:30.our own individual freedom but also recognising the responsibility that
:55:31. > :55:35.we have to each other. Yes, when we put on certain clothes it will give
:55:36. > :55:40.out certain messages and some people will look at those things and they
:55:41. > :55:48.will not look at them as modest. They will think, habit of all right.
:55:49. > :55:51.It gives out those messages. Can I express on behalf of the men in the
:55:52. > :55:58.audience who are in Paris by this, why are we having a debate friend
:55:59. > :56:03.about women's modesty? Because yesterday was World Hijab Day. Isn't
:56:04. > :56:09.it terrible that clothing is only ever politicised when it relates to
:56:10. > :56:13.women or other clothing. I worry that I've should do more buttons up
:56:14. > :56:20.on my shirt in case I'd get assaulted. It might inflame your
:56:21. > :56:25.passion! We have rights to be immodest as well as modest. You
:56:26. > :56:29.should not what then the street wearing an offensive T-shirt or
:56:30. > :56:33.totally naked and scare people, but outside of those boundaries, why are
:56:34. > :56:38.we even worrying in the 21st century about how people choose to dress, as
:56:39. > :56:43.long as it is their choice? I lived in a Muslim country for most of my
:56:44. > :56:49.life. The jab is not always a sign of modesty. -- hijab. Sometimes it
:56:50. > :56:54.is a statement against the West, Western values and Western culture.
:56:55. > :56:58.Sometimes it is a political statement. Sometimes it is a
:56:59. > :57:08.feminist statement. Let's not put the hijab as if it is the sign of
:57:09. > :57:14.modesty. It is like the Burka or this, it is a statement. When I'm
:57:15. > :57:22.dress modestly, with or without the hijab it has nothing to do with this
:57:23. > :57:25.label, these cliches. The hijab is not necessarily because women want
:57:26. > :57:28.to be modest. They want to say something and we need to understand.
:57:29. > :57:34.Especially men. Modesty is an attitude. It is an attitude rather
:57:35. > :57:41.than how I'd dress or do not dress. Let me finish with Tom. Do you have
:57:42. > :57:47.interesting articles as well in the magazine? I am there as an editor to
:57:48. > :57:53.give people information. Is there a lot of flesh? Sometimes. But we're
:57:54. > :58:01.there to give information whether you want to take that information or
:58:02. > :58:05.not... It is not porn. It is a fashion magazine. It is about hot
:58:06. > :58:10.trends and gossip and celebrity features. We just give information
:58:11. > :58:14.about what is currently happening in those trends or with the liberty
:58:15. > :58:18.culture, and whether people choose to take that trend and where it is
:58:19. > :58:26.up to them. Final comment from anyone? I want to finish with a
:58:27. > :58:35.quick point, there is too much focus on men. I think women, sometimes the
:58:36. > :58:37.way that we dress means that we cannot connect properly with each
:58:38. > :58:45.other because we are so focused on one another... We have to leave it
:58:46. > :58:48.there. That was a hot debate. As always, the debates will continue
:58:49. > :58:52.online and on Twitter. Next week we're in Leicester, so join us then.
:58:53. > :59:07.But for now it's goodbye and have a great Sunday.