:00:00. > :00:08.Today on The Big Questions: The Vatican versus the UN. Big game
:00:09. > :00:32.hunting. And, is religion funny? APPLAUSE
:00:33. > :00:35.Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions. Today
:00:36. > :00:44.we're live from Samworth Enterprise Academy in Leicester. Welcome
:00:45. > :00:47.everybody to The Big Questions. This week the United Nations
:00:48. > :00:50.Committee on the Rights of the Child issued a damning report on the
:00:51. > :00:55.Vatican's handling of child abuse within the Catholic Church. It
:00:56. > :00:59.called for the Vatican to remove all suspected clergy from their posts
:01:00. > :01:09.and to refer them to the police. Is it time for the Vatican to confess?
:01:10. > :01:15.Colm O'Gorman, author of Beyond Belief, and also a victim of Father
:01:16. > :01:18.Sean Fortune, are they still withholding information?
:01:19. > :01:22.Undoubtedly. It is clear that the Vatican were asked to supply to the
:01:23. > :01:26.committee last year detailed information about their handling, or
:01:27. > :01:32.the handling of child abuse cases. They failed to do that. The Vatican,
:01:33. > :01:34.the Vatican has had an interesting response to the report in which it
:01:35. > :01:40.suggested that the report didn't consider all of the facts. The
:01:41. > :01:43.Vatican was 14 years late submitting its information to the Vatican. The
:01:44. > :01:49.Vatican is withholding information. The reality is... What information?
:01:50. > :01:54.Are priests currently abusing, or historical cases? Both. We know that
:01:55. > :01:59.the Vatican jealously guards information at its own level. It is
:02:00. > :02:03.said to the committee, its defence for not supplying information to
:02:04. > :02:08.committee, it only shares information on these kinds of cases
:02:09. > :02:12.in national jurisdictions where legal processes are in train. At the
:02:13. > :02:15.same time it refused to share information to two state inquiries
:02:16. > :02:21.being carried out be a judge in Ireland, so it is being disingenuous
:02:22. > :02:29.in how it engages with the committee and responds to its report. The
:02:30. > :02:33.Vatican has failed to put in place under Canon law the kinds of
:02:34. > :02:36.measures that would properly protect children and would ensure that the
:02:37. > :02:40.Vatican and the Catholic Church is compliant with its obligations under
:02:41. > :02:46.the UN convention on the rights of the child. This was a UN committee
:02:47. > :02:53.inquire ring to the rights of children that the holy sea ratified
:02:54. > :03:01.and adopted and should be bound by. The hack should... It is a strange
:03:02. > :03:04.construct where it has a quasi- status at the United Nations. The
:03:05. > :03:09.holy sea signed the convention. The Vatican is inclined to claim
:03:10. > :03:13.different legal personalities. It has so many different personalities
:03:14. > :03:20.it jumps from one to the other, often as a way of avoiding
:03:21. > :03:27.responsibility. The holy sea said, we signed the treaty as the
:03:28. > :03:30.Government of the Vatican state. The committee rejecteded that notion and
:03:31. > :03:35.said no, that is true that that's one of your entities, but you are
:03:36. > :03:41.also the ultimate authority across the global Church and you can and do
:03:42. > :03:45.direct the functioning of practices and parishes across the world and
:03:46. > :03:49.the obligation of the treaty must apply to the Church at the global
:03:50. > :03:54.level. Ultimately in short do you believe that the Vatican, the Kath
:03:55. > :03:57.allege church, is still hiding and withholding information that should
:03:58. > :04:02.be released? It is undoubtedly doing that. Undoubtedly? Absolutely. We
:04:03. > :04:06.need to get the information... The fact that at this time refused to
:04:07. > :04:10.hand over information shows that it is failing to hand over information
:04:11. > :04:15.in an appropriate way. More importantly this report mirrors the
:04:16. > :04:20.findings, in state investigation and judicial inquiries and grand juries
:04:21. > :04:22.across the world. That is that the Catholic Church has, in the
:04:23. > :04:26.interests of protecting the institution, its authority, its
:04:27. > :04:30.money and its position, failed to protect children and has covered up
:04:31. > :04:37.and facilitated child sexual abuse on a grand scale.
:04:38. > :04:41.APPLAUSE On a grand scale. A litany of disgusting, heinous and
:04:42. > :04:47.unforgivable crimes, has it been sorted? I hope we all recognise
:04:48. > :04:50.these are disgusting crimes and there is a concern for everyone here
:04:51. > :04:55.for the protection of children. That was why this UN report was a
:04:56. > :04:58.travesty of ignorance and ideology over sheer facts and evidence. When
:04:59. > :05:03.we look at the nature of the Vatican, something never taken into
:05:04. > :05:08.account by the committee, which ignored the evidence that the Holy
:05:09. > :05:16.See gave to the committee. The Holy See and the Catholic Church isn't a
:05:17. > :05:19.multinational organisation, it is a hugely decentralised Holy Communion
:05:20. > :05:25.of different Churches. Where disgusting abuse has happened, what
:05:26. > :05:31.Pope Benedict called the filth of what happened, there is no evidence
:05:32. > :05:38.that it happened on a Vatican level, it is utter nonsense. The reason why
:05:39. > :05:43.we know that, the way that the actual Church works is when the CDF,
:05:44. > :05:47.the congregation of the doctrine of faith, which has responsibility for
:05:48. > :05:52.this, it is supposed to make sure that procedures are carried out. Not
:05:53. > :05:56.that in each case something happens, but the canonical case in each
:05:57. > :06:01.diocese, that means that the report fed back to the Vatican itself. That
:06:02. > :06:07.is utter nonsense. They don't have files, they have copies. That is
:06:08. > :06:12.utter nonsense. You don't know what you are talking about. I do
:06:13. > :06:17.actually, I've worked in this for 20 years. You should have worked harder
:06:18. > :06:22.then. Thank you for the insult! We discovered in an inquiry that took
:06:23. > :06:27.11 years in Ireland that at the Vatican level were detailed reports
:06:28. > :06:30.of internal inquiries and investigations into individual acts
:06:31. > :06:38.of abuse which were held at the level of the Vatican. Which were
:06:39. > :06:45.copies. So they held files. So you now acknowledge that the Vatican
:06:46. > :06:51.holds very detail d files. Copies of files. Are people... Sorry Nicky,
:06:52. > :06:54.one quick point. Since 2001 and beforehand, the Vatican asserted is
:06:55. > :06:59.its authority for deciding how cases are to be handled. Yes. And when
:07:00. > :07:04.actions are taken at the national or local level, often those that for
:07:05. > :07:08.instance that disciplinary action is taken against appeals against and
:07:09. > :07:12.the Vatican is the final arbitrator there. The notion that the Vatican
:07:13. > :07:16.doesn't instruct what happens at the local or parish level is nonsense.
:07:17. > :07:23.Talk to any priest who has dared to talk, or Bishop, about issues like a
:07:24. > :07:27.priest marrying oar LGBT rights and you will find that at the level of
:07:28. > :07:37.the Vatican they swoop in with extraordinary force in a way that
:07:38. > :07:43.(Inaudible) APPLAUSE Some people believe there
:07:44. > :07:47.is no transparency. Cardinal rats I thinker for Pope Benedict collected
:07:48. > :07:53.all of this information. Has all of that information been released? The
:07:54. > :07:58.CDS... The police want to file they can go to the local diocese. I have
:07:59. > :08:04.to connect this, there are three levels on which the Vatican's
:08:05. > :08:09.authority over local diocese, the canonical procedures, the doctrine
:08:10. > :08:15.and liturgy. Those aren't things that... Surely Pope Benedict read
:08:16. > :08:19.them? He did much more than anyone else and passed on this
:08:20. > :08:23.information... To the police? It is not his job to do that at the level
:08:24. > :08:28.level. No they didn't. ALL TALK AT ONCE
:08:29. > :08:33.Richard Scorer, author of Betrayed: The English Catholic Church and the
:08:34. > :08:41.Sex Abuse. In crisis. There is seems to be a camera diction between we
:08:42. > :08:48.are centralised, decentralised e, we abide by Canon law. There is There
:08:49. > :08:52.is evidence of a cover up, and there is a simple way the Pope and the
:08:53. > :08:56.Vatican could deal with this. They could direct that all allegationses
:08:57. > :09:03.have to be reported to the police and civil authorities. They won't do
:09:04. > :09:07.that. They did, in 2010. As a lawyer they have a legal obligation you
:09:08. > :09:12.believe to do that? Is what the Catholic Church has said is you must
:09:13. > :09:17.obey the law of the land. If a Catholic Bishop knows about abuse by
:09:18. > :09:22.a priest, he has no obligation to go to the police. That will come if the
:09:23. > :09:29.Vatican give as clear direction that that has to happen. First of all,
:09:30. > :09:32.all of us in the Kath lick church -- Catholic Church accept there was
:09:33. > :09:36.horrible abuse and there was a cover-up. As a mother of four
:09:37. > :09:40.children I can't begin to contemplate how that must feel...
:09:41. > :09:46.Can I ask you one question, this has been going on for decades, they knew
:09:47. > :09:52.about it in the 1960s and 70s' and 80s. Why wasn't anything done about
:09:53. > :09:59.it then? There are a couple of reasons. Just to come back... Can
:10:00. > :10:05.you come back to that? I want to come back to the point that Colm
:10:06. > :10:09.said. I think it wasn't fully understood what was happening. A few
:10:10. > :10:13.things went on, none of which were excusable. What do you mean? When
:10:14. > :10:16.you find out that one of your colleagues have been abusing your
:10:17. > :10:22.children, priests who are known and loved, the first reaction is denial,
:10:23. > :10:26.that this couldn't have happened. A second reaction, and again it was
:10:27. > :10:34.the wrong reaction, I think when certain cases came to light, various
:10:35. > :10:38.diocese engaged with their lawyers, who realised that a lot of money
:10:39. > :10:43.needed, rightly, to be paid out in compensation. And they engaged in
:10:44. > :10:49.legal terms which meant not talking to the victims, stone walling them,
:10:50. > :10:53.not putting their hand up and saying, we are sorry. And not fully
:10:54. > :10:58.understanding the nature of paedophilia? I think so, in as much
:10:59. > :11:03.as... Surely knowing that molest egg a little boy was wrong. Of course
:11:04. > :11:08.they would know that that was wrong. We are a Church of forgiveness and
:11:09. > :11:15.there was a lot of naive I, when somebody said, I'm sorry... With
:11:16. > :11:17.enormous respect. Can I continue? With enormous respect, because I
:11:18. > :11:23.understand where you are coming from, the first law was introduced
:11:24. > :11:29.in the Catholic Church against priests in the 14th century. The
:11:30. > :11:35.first reference was from the second century. Catholic Church history is
:11:36. > :11:40.littered with law which the Catholic Church tried to address child sexual
:11:41. > :11:45.abuse, sometimes in respect of eliminating it or trying to protect
:11:46. > :11:50.the institution. In the 1940s the Vatican established a congregation
:11:51. > :11:55.whose only support was to provide support to priests with psycho
:11:56. > :11:59.sexual problems. The head of that congregation had told the Vatican,
:12:00. > :12:01.had told the Pope, that priests who had offended dependence children
:12:02. > :12:05.even following treatment shouldn't be returned to parishes, because
:12:06. > :12:10.they would continue to abuse. He said that granting them new parishes
:12:11. > :12:16.like granting them green pastures in which they would continue to abuse.
:12:17. > :12:19.What went wrong? It is a myth that the Catholic Church didn't
:12:20. > :12:23.understand the nature of paedophilia 30 years ago. I dealt with case
:12:24. > :12:30.where the Catholic Church got clear medical evidence from psychiatrists
:12:31. > :12:35.that a particular priest was at risk of offending and he was allowed to
:12:36. > :12:40.continue working with children. Caroline said they didn't understand
:12:41. > :12:46.the nature of paedophilia. They took out insurance against the risk of
:12:47. > :12:48.compensation claims 30 years ago. Why take out insurance against
:12:49. > :12:52.something if you don't think it is a rievg?
:12:53. > :12:59.APPLAUSE Reverend Canon David Jennings wants to come in with a
:13:00. > :13:06.non- perspective. I'm an Anglican, not a Catholic. The Anglican church
:13:07. > :13:10.is by no means immune from some of the things we are discussing. Nor
:13:11. > :13:16.the BBC. I wouldn't dare mention the BBC. I want to mention how
:13:17. > :13:20.institutions turn in on themselves to protect themselves. We saw the
:13:21. > :13:25.NHS, the Mid-Staffordshire crisis, the Army, where they don't deal with
:13:26. > :13:29.rape claims. All institutions have an ability to turn in on themselves.
:13:30. > :13:33.I think that's the kind of thing that needs to be looked at
:13:34. > :13:38.critically and exposed, because it is very damaging to individuals,
:13:39. > :13:42.such as was described and others know too well. It takes away any
:13:43. > :13:48.credibility that the institution has if it can't openly face and admit
:13:49. > :13:54.its own short comings. APPLAUSE Caroline? Just as the
:13:55. > :13:59.diocese of Chichester in the Anglican church has recently as two
:14:00. > :14:04.years ago has admitted it had huge safe guarding problems, no-one is
:14:05. > :14:08.suggesting that Canterbury hoarded all the information. In Ireland
:14:09. > :14:16.there've been three states reports into the problem of child abuse.
:14:17. > :14:20.There are reports that the Catholic Church didn't fully investigate.
:14:21. > :14:24.# They investigated about 86 of cases. In every one of those 86
:14:25. > :14:32.cases it was shown that no information was sent to the Vatican
:14:33. > :14:46.about this until 2005. This is what my report... I am quite familiar
:14:47. > :14:51.with this. In 2005, the first Amendment talked about the
:14:52. > :14:54.Vatican's central responsibility. The Vatican had distributed
:14:55. > :14:59.information to bishops about how cases were to be handled. As part of
:15:00. > :15:05.that policy, people were sworn to absolute secrecy. It talked about
:15:06. > :15:09.the failure of the Vatican to make its dieses win of this phenomenon at
:15:10. > :15:14.a time when it knew not only of the phenomenon, what the dangers
:15:15. > :15:21.associated with it. That was in 2005. The enquiry dealt with about
:15:22. > :15:29.28 priests in total. It dealt with hundreds of victims. The report
:15:30. > :15:40.dealt with thousands of victims. We are talking about for major state
:15:41. > :15:47.investigations. It ran for 11 years. If I may, let's speak to Evon
:15:48. > :15:51.Brennan. What experience did you have in those industrial skills? I
:15:52. > :15:53.am an ex-pupil of an industrial system of 18 years. My
:15:54. > :16:00.Brennan. I and thousands of other people have gone through the system.
:16:01. > :16:08.We people have gone through the system.
:16:09. > :16:15.ideas of what the book says. This is physical abuse, sadism? Yes, but I
:16:16. > :16:25.would like to talk about the legacy of the damage, the ripple effect of
:16:26. > :16:29.what the institution has done to thousands and millions of people.
:16:30. > :16:33.For example, the church is supposed to give comfort, love, it is
:16:34. > :16:43.supposed to to give comfort, love, it is
:16:44. > :16:50.of innocent children, it gave them the opposite to that, it gave them a
:16:51. > :16:55.life of destruction, loathing of their bodies, it indoctrinated them
:16:56. > :17:04.about complete hate. It actually bred hate. I would like to find out,
:17:05. > :17:10.what does the Pope do with regards to all of the innocent minds that
:17:11. > :17:15.were affected from very very young. This innocent mind has grown with
:17:16. > :17:20.hate, with destruction, this innocent mind has then married, and
:17:21. > :17:25.it has spread eight. The Catholic Church has spread the disease. How
:17:26. > :17:31.do we reach all of these people who have been disease by the system? How
:17:32. > :17:36.deep is this? It is very deep, and it takes years. It is still there.
:17:37. > :17:45.How can you possibly get rid of something that was ingrained? In
:17:46. > :17:50.order for it to go, you have to go back and you have to abolish it. You
:17:51. > :17:58.have to say, where did it go wrong? You have to go back to the basics.
:17:59. > :18:03.What does Catholicism mean? How do you become sacred? Through
:18:04. > :18:07.persecution? Through abstinence? I think this confuses the fight. It is
:18:08. > :18:13.important to listen to experiences like this. There have been terrible
:18:14. > :18:17.abuses by Catholics, but to blame the entire Catholic Church for
:18:18. > :18:22.that, I think it is a mistake. The vast majority of Catholics have
:18:23. > :18:25.never hurt anyone. This is why the UN committee had a real
:18:26. > :18:31.responsibility to bring out a report that would have had constructive
:18:32. > :18:35.things to say. Is that not why all the files should be released? It did
:18:36. > :18:40.not do that. It brought out this prejudiced report. It said to the
:18:41. > :18:44.church that it should change its teaching on abortion. People like
:18:45. > :18:50.Uganda have had horrible abuses of human rights. This is something
:18:51. > :18:53.which is totally misunderstood, the nature of the Church, in terms of
:18:54. > :19:00.its responsibilities on a local level. The report made unacceptable
:19:01. > :19:03.claims about the church's record and human dignity. We should all be
:19:04. > :19:11.concerned with the rights of the child. Let's get the audience. It
:19:12. > :19:14.would appear to me and to most right-thinking people that there has
:19:15. > :19:21.been a systematic cover-up within the Catholic Church, to cover up
:19:22. > :19:25.these vile abuses of children. In what other walk of life would it be
:19:26. > :19:29.right to have someone do something that morally wrong in one place, and
:19:30. > :19:35.say, we will cover that up and move you to somewhere new? They are not
:19:36. > :19:43.doing that any more. It is a disgrace. One of the limitations of
:19:44. > :19:48.the report is that it did not mention that particularly in the UK
:19:49. > :19:57.and the US, we have had 15 years of Gold standard, best practice. It has
:19:58. > :20:01.created a climate of fear. What Evon Brennan said was incredibly
:20:02. > :20:07.powerful. What happened to you, no Christian could condone. Think of
:20:08. > :20:11.the Bible, anyone who causes one of my little ones to lose faith, the
:20:12. > :20:15.better have a millstone around their neck. But what we saw in Ireland,
:20:16. > :20:25.the state colluded with some of these institutions. They were not
:20:26. > :20:27.monitored by anyone. If in the confessional, a priest says to
:20:28. > :20:34.another priest, I have been doing this, is there an obligation to make
:20:35. > :20:45.that information public or give it to the police? What is said in the
:20:46. > :20:50.confessional has to be sacred. Why? If somebody is genuinely penitent,
:20:51. > :20:57.we all go to confession, and we go to confession because we want
:20:58. > :20:58.we all go to confession, and we go forgiven, and we want to amend our
:20:59. > :21:04.lives. These are unforgivable. If you are genuinely repentant, Father,
:21:05. > :21:14.I abused a child, you will go to the police. As a growing child, who is
:21:15. > :21:19.becoming adolescent, and the child says to the priest, I touched
:21:20. > :21:29.myself. What does the priest say to that? This is magical. The Catholic
:21:30. > :21:34.Church has completely enjoyed -- has completely denied the enjoyment of
:21:35. > :21:42.one's body. That has been the problem. With it is the Anglican
:21:43. > :21:46.Church, the Catholic Church or any other, how do you actually select
:21:47. > :21:51.priests and determine whether they are suitable? That procedure has
:21:52. > :21:58.very much been sorted out. Thank you all very much for your contributions
:21:59. > :22:00.on that debate. If you have something to say about that debate,
:22:01. > :22:04.log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions and follow the link to where you can
:22:05. > :22:07.join in the discussion online, or contribute on Twitter. We are also
:22:08. > :22:10.debating live this morning from Leicester, is trophy hunting good
:22:11. > :22:14.for conservation? And are some topics too sacred for comedy? So get
:22:15. > :22:18.tweeting or emailing on those topics now or send us any other ideas or
:22:19. > :22:23.thoughts you may have about the show.
:22:24. > :22:26.Today, the Prince of Wales and Prince William issued a video
:22:27. > :22:28.highlighting the plight of elephants, rhinos, tigers and other
:22:29. > :22:35.species hunted for their ivory, their bones or other saleable body
:22:36. > :22:37.parts. Britain is hosting a big international conference on the
:22:38. > :22:40.illegal wildlife trade this Wednesday. But there are some voices
:22:41. > :22:49.suggesting that properly licensed hunting can help conserve rare
:22:50. > :22:52.species. Recently a permit to shoot an elderly black rhino in Namibia
:22:53. > :22:55.was auctioned for $350,000, money which will be ploughed back into the
:22:56. > :23:05.local community and its wildlife protection projects. Is trophy
:23:06. > :23:13.hunting good for conservation? I am delighted to say that we have
:23:14. > :23:16.Professor EJ Milner-Gulland. There are some estimates that 50,000
:23:17. > :23:22.elephants were lost last year to poaching. Clearly these are
:23:23. > :23:27.threatened and endangered species. Over 1000 rhinos killed last year.
:23:28. > :23:32.How does selling permits to hunters to kill these beautiful animals save
:23:33. > :23:40.them? It does seem counterintuitive, but there are a
:23:41. > :23:45.number of examples were if it is properly managed, trophy hunting can
:23:46. > :23:51.have successes. I have done work with brown bears in Croatia. Trophy
:23:52. > :23:56.hunting is run with local hunting associations. Bears or annoying
:23:57. > :24:00.neighbours to have because they destroy your property and eat your
:24:01. > :24:05.beehives and things like that. Because it is locally done, the
:24:06. > :24:10.compensation comes straightaway, and the population of beers is stable.
:24:11. > :24:17.Across the border in Slovenia, it is ruled by EU la. It is the same
:24:18. > :24:21.population of beers, and bears are protected. And yet 20% of their
:24:22. > :24:27.population were shot as problem animals, because the people were
:24:28. > :24:33.annoyed with them. That compares with 8% in Croatia. This is a good
:24:34. > :24:38.example of where if trophy hunting is well managed, it can make a
:24:39. > :24:51.difference. The animal is seen as an asset to the local community.
:24:52. > :24:55.Exactly. You have come from Kenya, Doctor Paula Kahumbu. If you kill an
:24:56. > :24:57.animal to save a species, that is surely for the greater good, money
:24:58. > :25:04.will be ploughed into the community? Why do you not believe
:25:05. > :25:10.that argument? Several reasons. I think it is ironic. It is like
:25:11. > :25:14.saying during the famine of the 1980s, when Ethiopians were
:25:15. > :25:19.starving, it is like having a fundraising event were your stuffing
:25:20. > :25:24.your face. And eating competition. It is confusing for the people on
:25:25. > :25:29.the ground. In Africa, where these animals are being shot, it is not
:25:30. > :25:35.well-managed. Secondly, it runs counter to the value system.
:25:36. > :25:43.European values, sport hunting, killing animals for fun... Are those
:25:44. > :25:46.not African values? Absolutely not. Animals may be killed because they
:25:47. > :25:51.are part of an initiation ceremony, or problem animals, but hunting
:25:52. > :25:57.animals as a blood sport is not one of the values. There has been a
:25:58. > :26:03.massive outrage because of the rhino in Namibia which is going to be
:26:04. > :26:10.shot. People were so upset. It was all over the Internet. It was an
:26:11. > :26:16.elderly, aggressive rhino. The animal is aggressive because it is
:26:17. > :26:20.in a confined space. You cannot call it conservation when these animals
:26:21. > :26:24.are being bred in little farms. They are contained in farms for the
:26:25. > :26:30.purpose of hunters. That is not conservation. Having 1 million
:26:31. > :26:33.rhinos for the benefit of these elite hunters coming in for the
:26:34. > :26:38.United States or Europe, that is not conservation. Conservation is where
:26:39. > :26:45.you are protecting the animals and the landscape. The communities that
:26:46. > :26:49.live with these animals, and that happens in Kenya where we do not
:26:50. > :26:54.allow this, I am not saying it is perfect, and we do not have all the
:26:55. > :26:58.solutions, but Kenyans are saying that the sport hunting fraternity,
:26:59. > :27:02.it would be the equivalent of Kenyans coming to the United Kingdom
:27:03. > :27:07.and saying, we allow certain drugs in our markets, let's impose them on
:27:08. > :27:16.you because we can make money out of it. This is a cultural imposition?
:27:17. > :27:25.Charlie Jakobi, Hunter, owner of this Beales -- owner of the sports
:27:26. > :27:31.hunting channel. What have you killed in Africa? I have shot
:27:32. > :27:38.antelope and the zebra. This rhino that is going to be shot. It is a
:27:39. > :27:44.lot of money. $350,000. Lots of rhinos saved. Can you imagine how
:27:45. > :27:52.many animals you can save if you have $350,000. Is that where the
:27:53. > :27:57.money goes? Yes. Describe the enjoyment of shooting a rhino? It is
:27:58. > :28:02.a very complicated thing. One thing to get right about this first of
:28:03. > :28:07.all, in Britain, we have a different view of how we should animals. We
:28:08. > :28:14.like the idea of the rogue animal, the leopard that has taken the
:28:15. > :28:21.child. Second is pest animals, then edible animals. In America, it is
:28:22. > :28:27.the other way around. Trophy animals are the most important thing. What
:28:28. > :28:34.is the enjoyment? Take us through this elderly rhino? It is
:28:35. > :28:37.complicated. I will do my best. You'll leave your house with your
:28:38. > :28:45.gun, you have a landscape in front of you. This is the rhino I am
:28:46. > :28:50.talking about? Take that as an example, you're out on your farm in
:28:51. > :28:56.Namibia. You see the landscape and suddenly everything is much better.
:28:57. > :29:01.You often hear people that -- say that they are there for the
:29:02. > :29:05.stocking, not for the kill. It is a much more exciting way to see the
:29:06. > :29:11.world. Then there is the bit where you pull the trigger. A friend of
:29:12. > :29:20.mine described it as 99% late on and 1% horror. If you're an American,
:29:21. > :29:26.you want the rhino on your wall. If it is me, I get to cook the rabbit,
:29:27. > :29:31.if it is a rabbit. When the animal false, there is a feeling of
:29:32. > :29:35.completion? Why do you not shoot it with a camera? It is not the same.
:29:36. > :29:44.Hunting goes back thousands of years. We sat around campfires in
:29:45. > :29:53.the Stone Age. We did not talk about decorating. We spoke about who got
:29:54. > :29:57.the biggest animal. Is it a good idea to get people to pay a lot of
:29:58. > :30:02.money to kill a member of a species to save a species? Let's put it into
:30:03. > :30:08.some con decks, Nicky, because we are talking about -- into context,
:30:09. > :30:15.Nicky, because we are talking about 1,500 elephant licences, 600 lions
:30:16. > :30:18.being killed, going to the United States. Those who are supporters of
:30:19. > :30:21.trophy hunting will say it is good for the local community, because it
:30:22. > :30:26.provides employment. Very weak statistics on just how many people
:30:27. > :30:37.it really does ploy. I give you a good argument on -- that it employs.
:30:38. > :30:42.I can give you a good assessment. The UN says 3% of money goes into
:30:43. > :30:49.local communities. The bottom line is it is all about an elite wishing
:30:50. > :31:01.the put the head of an animal on their wall. The head of a lion...
:31:02. > :31:07.APPLAUSE Go on, Charlie. In Kenya sports hunting was banned in 1997
:31:08. > :31:15.and the lion and rhino population have fallen by 90% since then What
:31:16. > :31:20.about Botswana which has banned trophy hunting and not for a year,
:31:21. > :31:24.it has been banned until populations recover. The reason it has been
:31:25. > :31:30.banned is because the Minister herself said the reason it has been
:31:31. > :31:33.Banned is because wildlife populations are in decline and
:31:34. > :31:43.trophy hunting is playing a major role than that. No they are not. You
:31:44. > :31:50.are muddling poaching and hunting. Where do they go? The main reason
:31:51. > :31:53.why many of Kenya's and Africa's big five are in trouble today are
:31:54. > :31:59.because of hunting. I'm not talking about the last ten years but
:32:00. > :32:04.historically. The reason why Kenya put in a ban on the hunting of
:32:05. > :32:10.wildlife is because populations of the animals were already collapsing.
:32:11. > :32:16.So hunting, think about it, in the 1800s and 190 #0s, el fancifuling
:32:17. > :32:20.being hunted at the rate of 100,000 a year, by sport hunters. At that
:32:21. > :32:28.time there were no proper regulations. Africa's elephants
:32:29. > :32:34.declined from 25 million to just a few hundred. But they weren't paying
:32:35. > :32:38.it back into conservation. Top police stations collapsed because of
:32:39. > :32:44.sport huntling, so now to turn it around and say, guess what, I'm the
:32:45. > :32:47.champion of conservation. Sorry, but Africans don't buy that. They've
:32:48. > :32:53.never been hunters in this way. And they are not really paying it back
:32:54. > :32:59.in any significant way now. $300,000 is not significant? Wait for it. The
:33:00. > :33:05.total wildlife-based tourism income for Kenya alone is a billion US a
:33:06. > :33:12.year. 165,000 people employed in it. The total according to Safari Club,
:33:13. > :33:19.not the most reliable source, is 200 million. 100 from South Africa
:33:20. > :33:25.alone. It is incomparable. It behoves me to come back to you at
:33:26. > :33:29.this point. You love animals. I do. How do you feel when you see there's
:33:30. > :33:34.quite a lot of stuff goes around on the internet and Twitter of people
:33:35. > :33:39.posing the beautiful lion that they've shot? Does that make you
:33:40. > :33:42.queasy or do you think, not much? That's not something I would
:33:43. > :33:46.personally want to do. What do you think when you see the photograph?
:33:47. > :33:54.It is not nice. But let's think about conservation and Rhinos. I
:33:55. > :33:59.agree with Paul o that over the course the century sport hunting was
:34:00. > :34:05.the major cause of the decline. The western black rhino was declared
:34:06. > :34:15.extinct two years ago. In Namibia they hold 9 of the -- 90% of the
:34:16. > :34:21.subspecies they have. It is well regulated. It is not true in other
:34:22. > :34:25.countries, but perhaps in Namibia and South Africa, rhinos are a
:34:26. > :34:30.conservative story and a lot of it is due to trophy hunting. Nicky,
:34:31. > :34:34.there is a problem when you talk about South Africa. EJ is right,
:34:35. > :34:39.southern Africa has a different model, and that's shifting, most
:34:40. > :34:43.dramatically with the recent declaration in Botswana. In South
:34:44. > :34:48.Africa the hunting story, which did look so good, has been quickly
:34:49. > :34:53.compromised by criminal cartels by Asia. The poachers? No, hunting.
:34:54. > :34:57.What they are doing is brilliant. These people are much smarter than
:34:58. > :35:05.the rest of us. They come and buy a hunting permit, which costs maybe
:35:06. > :35:10.$20,000, for a rhino, to get the horn of the rhino, which is worst
:35:11. > :35:14.about $1 million. You buy up all the licences, had you have people that
:35:15. > :35:18.shoot like this, because they are not hunters. They brought in
:35:19. > :35:23.prostitutes at one point. They started with Thai, Vietnamese and
:35:24. > :35:28.now even Polish hunters. They shoot like this, injury the animal and the
:35:29. > :35:32.outfitter has to finish off the animal. They take off the horn, they
:35:33. > :35:36.stick it on a wooden plaque. They declare it and they export it with a
:35:37. > :35:40.legal licence, because the value of that horn is monumental compared to
:35:41. > :35:45.the price of the actual hunt. People think it makes them virile when they
:35:46. > :35:52.slaughter? And then it goes to Poland and then to the Far East. So
:35:53. > :35:58.it is stimulating illegal trade. I heard you say a few moments ago, why
:35:59. > :36:04.not give the money straight away. You grew up in Kenya? I grew up in
:36:05. > :36:09.Kenya. I watched animals hunting in the wild. I loved elephants. To
:36:10. > :36:14.think my grandchildren might not see those elephants breaks my heart. If
:36:15. > :36:17.they care so much about conservation, why can't they just
:36:18. > :36:23.give the cash? APPLAUSE I will go up to my next
:36:24. > :36:35.American millionaire and ask why don't you hand over your $350
:36:36. > :36:41.million. And tell him to get a life. How does putting a bullet through
:36:42. > :36:46.the animal's head make you a man? It is fun and millions of people do it.
:36:47. > :36:50.You don't know me. I have killed a rabbit which had myxomatosis and was
:36:51. > :36:54.suffering. I killed it to put it out of its misery. I will kill an animal
:36:55. > :36:58.if I need to eat it if I'm in the wild, but just for the fun of
:36:59. > :37:04.killing it and watching it die, it makes me subhuman.
:37:05. > :37:10.APPLAUSE Anyway, is there anyway this could help stop the illegal
:37:11. > :37:15.trade? So much money's going into, coming from the poachers through the
:37:16. > :37:21.Chinese and Vietnamese cartels and Triads, there's AK-47s, night vision
:37:22. > :37:26.glasses, massive amounts of money. A slaughter frenzy at the moment. Is
:37:27. > :37:32.there anyway that some of this money can combat that? Yes, the money from
:37:33. > :37:38.trophy hunting, from that rhino that's going to be killed in Namibia
:37:39. > :37:42.is going into anti-poaching. They had two Rhinos killed through
:37:43. > :37:49.poaching last year compared to the 1,000 in South Africa. Once they run
:37:50. > :37:54.out in South Africa, the guys will go to Namibia. It is managing to
:37:55. > :37:59.fend it off soar far. In South Africa they have a massive problem
:38:00. > :38:03.with poaching, separate from trophy hunting. With the point about the
:38:04. > :38:07.fake legal hunting permits, had it is legal in as much as it is not
:38:08. > :38:11.biologically unsustainable but it is fuelling the illegal trade. South
:38:12. > :38:16.Africa has closed the loophole with Vietnamese citizens. They are trying
:38:17. > :38:23.to strengthen... Something I want to address is this concept, people may
:38:24. > :38:27.have heard of it, I will try to come to audience contributions, explain
:38:28. > :38:33.this idea of canned hunting. It is used a lot with lions. It is breed
:38:34. > :38:37.lions in a compound and then rich Americans or whoever come and pay a
:38:38. > :38:41.lot of money and the lion is released on the last day of the
:38:42. > :38:46.safari from the compound and the gullible person shoots. The lion is
:38:47. > :38:53.used to human hands. Is a lot of this going on? A huge amount. It
:38:54. > :38:58.almost exactly is as you described. Your tourist hunter goes in on a no
:38:59. > :39:03.kill no fee basis. There is no fair chase. There is no opportunity for
:39:04. > :39:10.this animal to get aye. -- to get away. Is this animal used to humans?
:39:11. > :39:15.It is taken around in a circuitous route in order to make it feel like
:39:16. > :39:19.the guy is on a hunt and there's the animal and they shoot it. The
:39:20. > :39:22.problem with that is that the trophy hunter takes the head home and the
:39:23. > :39:27.body is left behind. The body is stripped of the meat. The skeleton
:39:28. > :39:30.is legally sold, because these are captive-bred animals, so they don't
:39:31. > :39:37.fall under the same regulations as wild animals. They are sent to the
:39:38. > :39:43.far east, to Laos. In 2009 five skeletons were exported. In 2011,
:39:44. > :39:49.494 skeletons were exported to Laos. This is going to have a massive and
:39:50. > :39:52.detrimental impact on wild lion populations across Africa. The
:39:53. > :39:58.consumer market doesn't care where they come from. How many are left?
:39:59. > :40:05.Between 25-30,000. 1,600 a year are killed by trophy hunters. I agree
:40:06. > :40:10.with Will. I think canned hunting is unsporting and I don't like it
:40:11. > :40:14.Because there is no contest? It is a difficult word to describe, but
:40:15. > :40:20.there is no sport. No sense of the landscape, of the shooting should.
:40:21. > :40:27.There is no sense of the (Inaudible) Why are you laughing, Will? You
:40:28. > :40:31.stand 300 metres away with your high-powered rifle. I didn't say
:40:32. > :40:35.high-powered. You look through the scope and you take out that animal
:40:36. > :40:43.at 300 metres. Where's the sport in that?
:40:44. > :40:51.APPLAUSE Just on this point, I don't think Will be be subscribing to your
:40:52. > :40:57.YouTube channel. Can something like that, if the money doesn't go into
:40:58. > :41:00.the commercial hand and pay for swimming pools, can we get to a
:41:01. > :41:05.situation where more of that money goes into conservation? Is that your
:41:06. > :41:10.battle? Canned hunting that nothing to do with conservation. My battle
:41:11. > :41:14.would be to make sure that landowners and Governments who hold
:41:15. > :41:18.these kind of endangered species in trust for all of us are effectiven
:41:19. > :41:24.the support they need to be able to protect them. That involves not just
:41:25. > :41:28.anti-poaching but empty of demand in consumer countries. I think will's
:41:29. > :41:32.-- I think Will's point about the bonus is important. If these are
:41:33. > :41:36.getting into the illegal trade, that's an issue that needs to be
:41:37. > :41:39.addressed by trophy hunters and Governments and anyone who cares
:41:40. > :41:46.about these endangered species. Thank you. We have to leave it
:41:47. > :41:49.there. Some very interesting stuff. You can join in all this morning's
:41:50. > :41:52.debates by logging on to bbc.co.uk/the big questions and
:41:53. > :41:55.following the link to the online discussion. Or you can tweet using
:41:56. > :41:58.the hashtag #bbctbq. Tell us what you think about our last Big
:41:59. > :42:04.Question too - are some topics too sacred for comedy? If you would like
:42:05. > :42:07.to be in the audience at a future show, you can email
:42:08. > :42:10.audiencetbg@mentorn.tv. We're in Edinburgh next week, Oxford on 23
:42:11. > :42:17.February, and Peterborough the week after that.
:42:18. > :42:23.. This weekend Leicester launched its
:42:24. > :42:26.21st comedy festival. In a city famous for being the most
:42:27. > :42:29.multicultural in Britain, it must often be tricky for comedians to
:42:30. > :42:33.raise a laugh without offending somebody in a Leicester audience. As
:42:34. > :42:44.we know all too well, it can be a difficult line to tread. Are some
:42:45. > :42:49.topics too sacred for comedy? When someone makes a joke about God or a
:42:50. > :42:54.cartoon or whatever, clearly it is not offending God. Clearly God is
:42:55. > :42:58.bigger than that. Surely it is only offending the people who want to be
:42:59. > :43:04.offended. Otherwise don't look at it. I don't think that we want to be
:43:05. > :43:09.offended. We worship that God, or respect that prophet, or love that
:43:10. > :43:13.person or that book or whatever. We feel hurt because we have a deep
:43:14. > :43:17.affection for whoever we are talking about, whether it is God or a
:43:18. > :43:21.prophet. We have love and affection for them the way we have love and
:43:22. > :43:29.affection for our parents or children. I wouldn't be able to
:43:30. > :43:32.tolerate somebody making fun of my father. Lots of people don't believe
:43:33. > :43:37.God exists, so for lots of people the jury's out or in, and for lots
:43:38. > :43:43.of people there is no jury, but your family exist. Number one for us, God
:43:44. > :43:49.and the prophets are real, so it is not like this is something ethereal.
:43:50. > :43:51.I understand that, but for others they aren't. We have to show respect
:43:52. > :43:57.and courtesy Tote people around us. they aren't. We have to show respect
:43:58. > :43:59.That's what makes us human being. We know how to survive around people.
:44:00. > :44:05.Our job isn't to say what we like regardless of the other person, as
:44:06. > :44:12.long as I make the money from my next joke routine. Citizen Khan on
:44:13. > :44:16.the BBC, I love him to bits, the programme. The Life of Brian? I
:44:17. > :44:22.didn't find that funny. I found that quite offensive. But it wasn't about
:44:23. > :44:29.Jesus but Brian. Yes, but a lot of the jokes there weren't.
:44:30. > :44:37.APPLAUSE Shouldn't we be more careful not to offend people of
:44:38. > :44:40.sincere faith like grat gratuitously? The American
:44:41. > :44:46.journalist once said one should respect the other man's religion in
:44:47. > :44:50.the same way once believes his wife and children are beautiful and
:44:51. > :44:53.intelligent. She is right, in overday life we don't go around
:44:54. > :45:00.saying what we like to anybody and just abusing people. But the point
:45:01. > :45:03.of comedy is that transaggression to escape from the little constraints
:45:04. > :45:07.that we put on ourselves every day. We laugh exactly because we we think
:45:08. > :45:13.there is something that is said that maybe I thought, maybe I once
:45:14. > :45:27.occurred to me and I didn't say it. Laughter is a release in a lot of
:45:28. > :45:33.ways. I can remember in the 1980s, there were lots of little jokes
:45:34. > :45:36.around sex abuse in Ireland. In some way, it was a way of dealing with
:45:37. > :45:42.the fact that no one else was dealing with it. We knew there was
:45:43. > :45:49.something going on. We thought, at least we can laugh at these people,
:45:50. > :45:55.if nothing else. It is a great way of pricking pomposity? Exactly. That
:45:56. > :46:02.is the point of comedy. Not to offend, but to make people think a
:46:03. > :46:13.little bit. If you can use comedy, for example, I do gags about
:46:14. > :46:20.Muslims. You are Muslim? Yes. I do gags about other religions as well.
:46:21. > :46:34.I went to see a Buddhist pantomime the other day. Somebody shouted out,
:46:35. > :46:39.he is beyond you. What about Pakistan, where there is a blasphemy
:46:40. > :46:44.law? Are we in danger of having one through the back door here? I have
:46:45. > :46:49.just come back from Pakistan three weeks ago. It is a beautiful place
:46:50. > :46:57.with some very beautiful people. There are some very liberal people.
:46:58. > :47:02.But on the subject of blasphemy, there are people who think you
:47:03. > :47:08.should be killed. That is a place not to go to for stand-up comedy. It
:47:09. > :47:14.is going to take a long time for them to understand that stand-up
:47:15. > :47:18.comedy is a device. Comedy is a device for discussing subjects,
:47:19. > :47:21.satire. Is there a danger that we will get that attitude kid if we are
:47:22. > :47:30.too sensitive to people sensibilities? People overreacting?
:47:31. > :47:35.Muslims love to overreact anywhere. It is the hot spices that weed, I do
:47:36. > :47:41.not know! But we have to be very careful. Religious people have to be
:47:42. > :47:47.careful not to take offence. When I see a comedian making fun of his
:47:48. > :47:53.mother in law, I know that he is not making fun of his mother-in-law, he
:47:54. > :47:57.is just making fun of the concept. But when God and the profit coming
:47:58. > :48:09.to the picture, people take it personally. -- the prophet. We have
:48:10. > :48:17.to be careful. You are right writer first bliss programmes, -- you are
:48:18. > :48:21.right for some marvellous programmes. Was there anything in
:48:22. > :48:26.The Life Of Brian that you find offensive? I thought it was
:48:27. > :48:32.hysterical, but as a Christian, I found the crucifixion scene
:48:33. > :48:37.difficult. I have been writing a book recently, retelling some Bible
:48:38. > :48:45.stories. I have focused on the earlier parts, Adam and Eve, and
:48:46. > :48:49.Noah and his Ark. When you get to the cross Andy Christy fiction, it
:48:50. > :48:53.is like someone making a joke about your mum who has died in a car or
:48:54. > :48:59.something. As a comedian and performer, I defend the right to do
:49:00. > :49:06.whatever jokes you see fit, play the room, because I like to try and make
:49:07. > :49:11.the most amount of people have as good a time as possible, which means
:49:12. > :49:15.not targeting people. Other comedians like to do that. But I
:49:16. > :49:21.think people should vote with their feet. If they do not like that, see
:49:22. > :49:25.someone else. Is there not a difference between targeting a
:49:26. > :49:30.race, which is unacceptable, and targeting a belief system,
:49:31. > :49:37.religion? You cannot account for offence. As a comedian, you could
:49:38. > :49:42.do, why does the chicken cross the road, and there could be a farmer in
:49:43. > :49:51.the studio who has had his chicken run over and he may not like that!
:49:52. > :49:57.What about Scientology? I think I have probably done jokes about that
:49:58. > :50:03.at some point. You have got to think, with the laugh along with it.
:50:04. > :50:09.Probably not. It depends on the approach you take. There are ways of
:50:10. > :50:14.doing it. David Jennings. I do not think that religious faith needs a
:50:15. > :50:18.great deal of protection. If it is sincerely held, people will hold it
:50:19. > :50:22.no matter what anyone says about it. But there is a difference between
:50:23. > :50:27.being able to make a joke about religious faith and setting out to
:50:28. > :50:32.be gratuitously offensive. I think there is a difference. Give me an
:50:33. > :50:38.example where someone has been gratuitously offensive in comedy? I
:50:39. > :50:43.cannot think of anything. Not off the top of my head. But if you said
:50:44. > :50:47.something obnoxious about Jesus, just because you wanted to say
:50:48. > :50:54.something obnoxious, that would be gratuitously offensive. Then do not
:50:55. > :50:59.read it, do not watch it? Comedy can give you an insight into religion
:51:00. > :51:05.that can be helpful. It puts it into a different context. That can be
:51:06. > :51:10.positive. It does not need all that protection. Any comedy, we need to
:51:11. > :51:18.remember that it runs the risk of offending somebody. It depends on
:51:19. > :51:22.the attention -- the intention of the person making the joke. Let's
:51:23. > :51:30.get some audience reaction. Good morning. That is the microphone from
:51:31. > :51:34.above. The thing you have to remember about comedy and humour, is
:51:35. > :51:38.that the reason something tends to be funny is because there tends to
:51:39. > :51:43.be some truth behind it, as minimal as that might be. Perhaps it is
:51:44. > :51:48.interesting that when comedians poke fun at religion, there is maybe
:51:49. > :51:54.something to think about. The people being offended should maybe think
:51:55. > :52:02.about something being said. You're far too young to remember Dave
:52:03. > :52:06.Allen. Check it out online. Dave Allen used to make fun of religion
:52:07. > :52:12.all the time. The gentle man over there. Good morning. I was just
:52:13. > :52:18.going to mention Dave Allen. Keep old fun at religion all the time.
:52:19. > :52:24.Mainly Catholicism. Yes, but let's just call it religion. He saw the
:52:25. > :52:28.absurdity and religion. Let's face it, we are asked to believe in a
:52:29. > :52:32.talking snake, we are asked to believe that there was a directive
:52:33. > :52:39.to kill witches. We are asked to believe that the prophet could hold
:52:40. > :52:49.back the night. We are asked to believe that another prophet flew
:52:50. > :52:58.from Mecca to Jerusalem. You say it is baloney? We are told that
:52:59. > :53:04.documents of tombs got up and walked around the town. You can choose not
:53:05. > :53:15.to believe it. Finally, we are also asked to believe that the young
:53:16. > :53:21.women was debauched by a ghost. -- a young woman. The whole thing is
:53:22. > :53:24.absurd. There are some messages that comedy can bring out that are
:53:25. > :53:30.difficult to touch upon another whizz. But for many people, face
:53:31. > :53:37.forms a big part of their identity, so to mark what they believe... For
:53:38. > :53:44.example, my face makes me respectful and inspires me to do good. My faith
:53:45. > :53:49.inspires letting me. If someone wants to more clad, I would find it
:53:50. > :53:54.difficult. That said, people can have different comedic case. That is
:53:55. > :54:01.perfectly fine. How do you feel about this? I want to pick up on
:54:02. > :54:05.something that was said. When people giggled about the abuse crisis in
:54:06. > :54:13.Ireland, that is how it got covered up. It was seen as funny. It clearly
:54:14. > :54:20.was not funny. Generally, when we say, are some topics to sacred, who
:54:21. > :54:27.decides? As a Christian, I believe that my faith is historically
:54:28. > :54:32.accurate. I believe that everything that Christianity teaches is true
:54:33. > :54:39.and can be proven. Because of that, it should be subject to test. What
:54:40. > :54:57.did you think about the Monty Python song? Every... Is Sacred. It is a
:54:58. > :55:04.scream. A friend of mine sang the solo on that. It is annoying in that
:55:05. > :55:09.it completely represents -- completely miss resents the Catholic
:55:10. > :55:16.Church. But it is funny. It is a release? Yes, it is a release. It
:55:17. > :55:26.tells you something. The Life Of Brian, it allows you to have another
:55:27. > :55:30.insight into the nature of Jesus. If we look at Moses. Jewish people,
:55:31. > :55:38.Christians, Muslims, we all believe in Moses. For 40 years, he took the
:55:39. > :55:42.children avengers -- and the children of Israel and wandered
:55:43. > :55:56.around the Sinai Desert. What kind of sad NAFTA date have? -- what kind
:55:57. > :56:01.of sat nav did he have. In the Muslim community, we have a thriving
:56:02. > :56:20.gay community, or as I like to call them, clerics. You mentioned at the
:56:21. > :56:23.start, is there an attempt to bring in a blasphemy law. We only abolish
:56:24. > :56:31.that in this country a few years ago. I was in Northern Ireland last
:56:32. > :56:35.week were a controversy sprung up over a play by the reduced
:56:36. > :56:50.Shakespeare Company. People got upset that there is an nearly got
:56:51. > :56:53.the play band. People said, you would not say this sort of thing
:56:54. > :57:00.about the Koran. What they really meant was, we want you to be as
:57:01. > :57:05.scared of our religion as others. People are saying, we own this, no
:57:06. > :57:10.one else can touch this. We are the only that hold the truth. If you try
:57:11. > :57:16.to look at it differently, and make fun of it, then you must be stopped,
:57:17. > :57:22.because you have offended my truth. Who makes that decision? I would
:57:23. > :57:26.just like to say, it is important that religion is out there and
:57:27. > :57:29.talked about. If you say that we cannot talk about this and that,
:57:30. > :57:37.you're wiping it from the debate table. The comedy club is a place
:57:38. > :57:41.where we tell jokes. I am doing a show in Leicester tomorrow night. I
:57:42. > :57:46.will be talking a bit about religion. The Bible is the most
:57:47. > :57:51.shoplifted book in the world. Some people think that the Bible should
:57:52. > :57:58.be taken, literally! Why not talk about these things? 20 seconds.
:57:59. > :58:04.Freedom of expression is a vital right. The only limits that should
:58:05. > :58:08.exist on that is if there is an incitement to hatred or violence.
:58:09. > :58:13.Nobody has a right not to be offended. People should engage in
:58:14. > :58:17.those moments where they feel offended, because that is where real
:58:18. > :58:27.discussion can happen. Thank you all very much. I am sure you have sold a
:58:28. > :58:30.few tickets, good luck. Likewise. As always, the debates will continue
:58:31. > :58:34.online and on Twitter. Next week we are in Edinburgh, my home town, so
:58:35. > :58:49.join us then. But for now it is goodbye and enjoy your Sunday.
:58:50. > :59:01.It's your job to keep law and order, isn't it?
:59:02. > :59:05.It must be exciting being a policewoman. It has its moments.