:00:00. > :00:08.Today on The Big Questions: Church splits, assisted dying, and godless
:00:09. > :00:34.religions. Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell.
:00:35. > :00:39.Welcome to The Big Questions. Today we're live from Leith Academy in
:00:40. > :00:48.Edinburgh. Welcome, everyone, to The Big Questions.
:00:49. > :00:52.This week, the Archbishop of Canterbury told the Church of
:00:53. > :00:56.England's General Synod that it might have to accept changes that
:00:57. > :01:00.many members won't like at all for the sake of unity. The Church should
:01:01. > :01:02.not be afraid of incoherence and inconsistency or untidy
:01:03. > :01:09.arrangements, he said, to avoid splits over issues like gay marriage
:01:10. > :01:12.or women bishops. Up here in Scotland, there have been several
:01:13. > :01:15.defections in recent months by Church of Scotland ministers, elders
:01:16. > :01:18.and members to non-conformist churches because of differences over
:01:19. > :01:30.gay clergy. Should Christians rise above their differences? Colin
:01:31. > :01:37.Wilson, good morning all stop we were having a Coffey earlier on.
:01:38. > :01:42.This issue of gay marriage has troubled youth. You used a memorable
:01:43. > :01:55.phrase. You said it is reversing gods architecture. What does that
:01:56. > :02:00.mean? It means the family, the heterosexual family is a basic
:02:01. > :02:05.building block of any society. What is happening is turning that process
:02:06. > :02:10.on its head. I think it is probably the biggest piece of social
:02:11. > :02:15.engineering we have seen. Who knows what the social consequences will
:02:16. > :02:24.be? What do you think they might be? Back is up for conjecture. We have
:02:25. > :02:28.departed from God 's basic plan for a healthy society and that is the
:02:29. > :02:37.problem. Who knows what it will lead to? Do not let them put you off,
:02:38. > :02:43.Colin. We will hear you out. Let me ask you, it is something of great
:02:44. > :02:51.concern to you. What if one of your children was gay and married their
:02:52. > :02:57.partner? Would you attend the wedding? The important thing is to
:02:58. > :03:01.realise that God loves each one of us. His love is such that he loves
:03:02. > :03:10.so much, he does not want to leave us as we are. He wants to shape us
:03:11. > :03:16.into the standards and righteousness and the form of living, into the
:03:17. > :03:27.belief system, that he has set for us. That is why you left. Regarding
:03:28. > :03:38.the Church of Scotland, it is ruling beyond the pale. Do you want people
:03:39. > :03:44.like Colin in your church? As soon as you create systemic division, you
:03:45. > :03:49.belittle all of us. We should struggle with our difference and
:03:50. > :03:53.find ways of celebrating it, rather than saying I am in my corner and
:03:54. > :03:58.you are in yours. I do not agree with Colin but I understand where he
:03:59. > :04:02.is coming from. I want to work to improve our relationship, rather
:04:03. > :04:10.than saying, see you later and I am over here. It is not a good moral
:04:11. > :04:19.for the rest of society. We are an enormously diverse place. You are so
:04:20. > :04:24.much stronger together, surely? God came to bring unity but unity
:04:25. > :04:27.between the individual and God. He did not necessarily send Jesus
:04:28. > :04:36.Christ to create unity amongst society. I know a guy who runs a
:04:37. > :04:43.place in the occupied territories. He is a Palestinian Christian. He is
:04:44. > :04:51.surrounded by illegal settlements, who are trying to encroach on his
:04:52. > :04:55.land. He says to me, I refuse to let those people become my enemies
:04:56. > :05:00.because he knows if he does that, it is all over. I want us to continue
:05:01. > :05:07.to do that kind of thing here. It is far better for all of us. The point
:05:08. > :05:18.is, this is a point for you again, and everybody else. If this is an
:05:19. > :05:24.abandonment of doctrine, this is such an abandonment of doctrine,
:05:25. > :05:35.they say you might as well make it a social club. You said that, didn't
:05:36. > :05:39.you? The key issue is, I work for an organisation promoting unity. We are
:05:40. > :05:44.about unity of Christians. It cannot be at any cost. If we start to lose
:05:45. > :05:48.the distinctive things that make us Christians, we kind of loose
:05:49. > :05:52.everything and we did become a kind of a social club. We become
:05:53. > :05:56.something which is just about getting together. We can get
:05:57. > :06:03.together and do some good but there has to be a unity. That is about who
:06:04. > :06:07.Jesus was, what he taught, what he lived, what he said. The framework
:06:08. > :06:13.would be around the place in the Bible, the Scriptures. We will have
:06:14. > :06:20.debates - all sorts of debates within that context. For us, that
:06:21. > :06:26.has to be the context. The point is, you are both reading Scriptures. You
:06:27. > :06:34.both read them day and night, one reads black and one reads white. I
:06:35. > :06:39.understand that the world is full of great as well. For most of Christian
:06:40. > :06:43.history, the family was not what Christians thought was the highest
:06:44. > :06:47.weight of God. They thought it was celibacy. There are a number of
:06:48. > :06:52.equally valid interpretations. The churches have to find a way in which
:06:53. > :06:57.they can bring together people who have different views. So far, they
:06:58. > :07:02.never have. Christians have never been able to deal with difference.
:07:03. > :07:06.It is urgent they find a way of doing that. Why would you want to be
:07:07. > :07:13.in a church with someone who believes that the earth is 6000
:07:14. > :07:19.years old who believes that Lot 's wife was turned into a pillar of
:07:20. > :07:24.salt? My relationship with God is enhanced by my capacity to be able
:07:25. > :07:28.to love somebody with whom I fundamentally disagree. Those around
:07:29. > :07:37.me become a better consequence -- become better as a consequence of
:07:38. > :07:41.that. My son goes to school on Diversity Day. They show us how we
:07:42. > :07:45.can celebrate diversity and deal with difference. What can I learn
:07:46. > :07:49.about that and how can I continue to be with people when I disagree with
:07:50. > :07:58.them? That has to be a better way than to say, I am right, you are
:07:59. > :08:04.wrong, see you later. What do you want to say to all of this? This is
:08:05. > :08:10.one of the fundamental issues with religion. In an area like science,
:08:11. > :08:15.in principle, you can sit down and look at the evidence on either side
:08:16. > :08:18.and come to a conclusion. Since the only evidence that Christians have
:08:19. > :08:21.for their beliefs is the interpretation of scripture and some
:08:22. > :08:25.traditional stuff, and some revelations that people have had,
:08:26. > :08:34.how can you... ? The evidence shows revelations that people have had,
:08:35. > :08:39.that about 30%, 40% of the variation in sexuality is shown by genetics.
:08:40. > :08:44.It is strange that God would have done if it were planned for everyone
:08:45. > :08:48.to be heterosexual. The men who broke the Bible did not understand
:08:49. > :08:58.about human sexuality. Why are you laughing? Men wrote the Bible. God
:08:59. > :09:03.wrote the Bible through men. Men were really God 's mouthpiece. They
:09:04. > :09:10.put his words onto the paper. Right, OK. You think there has been a
:09:11. > :09:17.curtailment of freedom of speech, don't you? If you say anything, gay
:09:18. > :09:22.and lesbians, it is fine but if we say anything, it is shot down in
:09:23. > :09:29.flames. I have gay friends and they have been friends no problem at
:09:30. > :09:35.all. Are they your best friends? One of them is very close. One of my
:09:36. > :09:41.employees is a lesbian and we get on fantastically well. There is no
:09:42. > :09:44.difference. We have unity. When it comes to the Bible is getting
:09:45. > :09:48.married, I do believe it is a man and a woman and God has preordained
:09:49. > :09:52.that. That is the basis of the family. Sexuality should not come
:09:53. > :10:08.into it at all. Why not? Do you think the Church is
:10:09. > :10:15.upset with sex? Absolutely. It has caused so much trouble over the
:10:16. > :10:20.centuries. It has caused so many wars. I could go on and on. I think
:10:21. > :10:27.they say too much. What would you like to say? Behind you. I will be
:10:28. > :10:35.coming to you in seconds. I wonder if Cindy believes her good friends
:10:36. > :10:40.who are gay will go to hell. I believe they are Christians and that
:10:41. > :10:46.is between them and God. If they have made a commitment for God and
:10:47. > :10:54.ask for forgiveness, that will be OK. The gentleman at the front was
:10:55. > :10:59.saying that God wrote the Bible through men. Why were some of the
:11:00. > :11:03.chapters drop throughout time? How do we know he did not say, two guys
:11:04. > :11:07.together are all right because they are making a go of it, they are
:11:08. > :11:16.bringing up children who are orphans. How do you know? Who was
:11:17. > :11:27.King James the fourth 's Bible? What was that like? The Bible is a book
:11:28. > :11:32.we need to engage with. The basic problem is that when people come to
:11:33. > :11:39.the Bible, they put themselves on the same level as God. Almost in a
:11:40. > :11:44.sense that they are equal to God. There are some things we have to
:11:45. > :11:47.accept. The word of God we accept by faith. I would concede that. It is
:11:48. > :11:53.only by faith we will accept the faith. I would concede that. It is
:11:54. > :11:57.Bible is the Word of God. It is only by faith we will accept that Jesus
:11:58. > :12:06.Christ is God 's son. Only by faith would we see him like that. I
:12:07. > :12:10.understand people come to the Bible with their own views. The way the
:12:11. > :12:19.Bible is read today is different to what it was 100, even 50 years ago.
:12:20. > :12:24.Is it worth working for people to stay together? A Church that stays
:12:25. > :12:33.together is more powerful in society. In Matthew, there are clear
:12:34. > :12:39.rulings that a man should submit to a woman in marriage and divorce is
:12:40. > :12:44.adultery and therefore a sin. There are a whole range of views taken on
:12:45. > :12:50.that. The views on divorce of the father of all schisms in Western
:12:51. > :12:55.Christianity. There is a point where you have to respect each other's
:12:56. > :12:59.right to take a different view, a different interpretation, and to
:13:00. > :13:03.work together. I attend Unitarian Church which has the perspective
:13:04. > :13:07.that your own view of how the universe is ordered, whether there
:13:08. > :13:10.is a God and all of that, that is your business. While we are here on
:13:11. > :13:22.us, let's be nice to each other and respect each other. That is a
:13:23. > :13:25.unifying principle. Some of my closest friends are Christians. I
:13:26. > :13:31.have a concern that if the Church breaks up into more and more niche
:13:32. > :13:34.areas with more specific ideas, especially concerning homosexuality,
:13:35. > :13:38.that will bring up children with more close minded viewpoints.
:13:39. > :13:44.Considering we live in a society where homosexual teenagers are
:13:45. > :13:45.committing suicide, is it a good idea to have the church breaking
:13:46. > :13:58.off? It is said that God created man in
:13:59. > :14:03.his image. Is it a possibility that humans are creating God in their
:14:04. > :14:11.image, with their attitude is? Have you done that? I think society, in
:14:12. > :14:18.general, is trying to create God. Really? By shifting the doctrinally
:14:19. > :14:23.goalposts? Exactly. As trends change, as fashions change, what is
:14:24. > :14:27.in flavour today will be outdated tomorrow. And this is the good thing
:14:28. > :14:34.about the word of God. It doesn't change. It is absolute, total and
:14:35. > :14:39.comprehensive. It doesn't change? You are shifting with the winds of
:14:40. > :14:43.liberalism. That's what you're doing. After World War Two, the
:14:44. > :14:48.Church of Scotland had to grapple with the issues of divorce in a way
:14:49. > :14:54.it never had had to before, for a number of reasons. It took 11 years
:14:55. > :14:57.to work it out. It got to a point where they could understand and
:14:58. > :15:03.accept how that could happen within the context of the faith, and
:15:04. > :15:07.providing space for those who still struggled with that. The point is,
:15:08. > :15:11.they took time to do it, because people had to change where they were
:15:12. > :15:16.coming from. They succeeded, and we can do it again, because our
:15:17. > :15:20.understanding of ourselves, our world and God has to change, in the
:15:21. > :15:28.same way that the Bible has changed ever since it was gathered together.
:15:29. > :15:34.If you think it is absolute, why are you not knocking on the prison door
:15:35. > :15:38.now saying, free the captives? That is an interpretation. We do that all
:15:39. > :15:48.the time. We do that in our relationship with God. You are a
:15:49. > :15:53.humanist. I am. Somebody brought up the question of freedom of speech.
:15:54. > :15:56.As a humanist, I accept that freedom of speech only counts for something
:15:57. > :16:01.when you are listening to something you don't want to hear. I am
:16:02. > :16:05.actually in favour of the split you had, because Colin, I want you
:16:06. > :16:10.telling everyone every Sunday what they think, so that they can vote
:16:11. > :16:18.with their feet, and hopefully come to your church instead! Thank you
:16:19. > :16:26.for that. One of the problems, the big problem is that we have, as the
:16:27. > :16:33.church sways and follows every wind of doctrine, is that people are
:16:34. > :16:42.looking for a truth. God isn't happy at the moment? He's never happy! You
:16:43. > :16:48.have said that God is not happy, and the unhappy God is what -- is with
:16:49. > :16:56.what we are doing in society. And what will happen is more floods and
:16:57. > :17:00.things like that? The more we apart from God's standards, the more we
:17:01. > :17:07.expose ourselves to serious problems, and that can be said right
:17:08. > :17:12.across the global spectrum. The big problem is that the Church message
:17:13. > :17:18.is so woolly now that people don't know what to believe. They are
:17:19. > :17:25.looking for absolutes. Know, people are looking to find the right path
:17:26. > :17:29.in their own lives through reason and compassion. This is why Humanism
:17:30. > :17:36.has become so popular, because people have the power to think for
:17:37. > :17:43.themselves. One more on this. We have other topics to discuss. A
:17:44. > :17:47.question from earlier on - if one of your children were gay and they
:17:48. > :17:53.married their gay partner, would you attend the wedding? Yes. Well, there
:17:54. > :17:58.you are! Thank you all very much for taking part in that one. If you have
:17:59. > :18:03.something to say in that debate, log onto our website and join in the
:18:04. > :18:13.discussion online, or on Twitter. We are also debating life today, should
:18:14. > :18:16.assisted dying be legal? And also, do religions need gods? Please send
:18:17. > :18:24.us any ideas or thoughts you have about the show. The Scottish
:18:25. > :18:29.Parliament is currently considering a bill to legalise assisted suicide
:18:30. > :18:34.for the terminally ill, and those with degenerative conditions. It is
:18:35. > :18:38.the second attempt by the independent MSP, Margo MacDonald,
:18:39. > :18:43.who has Parkinson's disease, to give people the right to die. Recent
:18:44. > :18:49.polls suggest 69% support the measure across Scotland. Should
:18:50. > :18:55.assisted dying be legal? Leslie, we have to start with you, because he
:18:56. > :18:59.went with your brother John, who had motor neuron disease, to a clinic in
:19:00. > :19:09.Switzerland, where they help people to die. Why did you, why did John
:19:10. > :19:13.think that was the right thing? John thought that he had authority and
:19:14. > :19:19.control over his life. He thought it was to do with as he saw fit, and as
:19:20. > :19:23.he was very clearly dying of motoneuron disease, there was no
:19:24. > :19:28.miracle cure, there was nothing that was going to change the fact that by
:19:29. > :19:33.the middle of 2003 he was going to be dead. So when he saw the idea of
:19:34. > :19:38.Dignitas, he couldn't speak or communicate, so he tapped on his
:19:39. > :19:46.screen, that's the way I would like to go. My reaction was, yes, I will
:19:47. > :19:56.help you. So in May 2003, we were in that one Mac's small flat in Zurich,
:19:57. > :20:01.and John literally held out his hand, and in those few moments
:20:02. > :20:08.between taking the medication and falling asleep, he smiled at us to
:20:09. > :20:13.say a final goodbye. We were comforted by the fact that he was
:20:14. > :20:17.dying peacefully and in a very dignified manner, albeit not quite
:20:18. > :20:22.at the time of his choosing. If he could have had the same treatment in
:20:23. > :20:25.the UK, he would have lived a few weeks longer, but he had to have the
:20:26. > :20:32.ball deep -- the bodily strength to get to Switzerland. I have good
:20:33. > :20:36.memories of that day, of him smiling and sharing a laugh before he died,
:20:37. > :20:43.because he was happy to be in control at the end. And I believe
:20:44. > :20:47.from the time that the barbiturate was administrative -- was
:20:48. > :20:53.administered from the time he slipped away, it was about 20
:20:54. > :20:59.minutes. Yes, you fall asleep within two or three minutes, so he was so
:21:00. > :21:03.fast asleep that the he didn't know we were there, but within 20
:21:04. > :21:09.minutes, his breathing had stopped, his heart had stopped beating, and
:21:10. > :21:15.those were 20 extra ordinary minutes which I will never forget. What I
:21:16. > :21:20.will never forget about them was the fact that he literally embrace this
:21:21. > :21:25.opportunity to end what was, for him, intolerable suffering. And
:21:26. > :21:31.there was no palliative care that could have eased that? He was unable
:21:32. > :21:36.to be stand -- he was unable to stand, speak or swallow. For him, it
:21:37. > :21:42.was a question of living a dignified life that he could take part in. He
:21:43. > :21:46.could still type with one finger of his left hand, and he could show
:21:47. > :21:53.some expression on his face, but it was getting to the point where he
:21:54. > :21:57.would be called a living head on a dead body, no input at all to life.
:21:58. > :22:03.John didn't want to live like that. He had been a fit, strong, funny,
:22:04. > :22:09.independent man, and to be reduced to that condition, and to be dying,
:22:10. > :22:15.meant that, for him, the only solution was to take this way out.
:22:16. > :22:19.And it was the only out. For him and for us. A light went on in his eyes
:22:20. > :22:30.when he realised this was a possibility. Very powerful to hear
:22:31. > :22:35.that. Gordon MacDonald, what Leslie said there was incredibly moving for
:22:36. > :22:41.everybody. What ever side you are on Mr Bate. But she also said that it
:22:42. > :22:51.should have been available in this country. -- whatever side you are on
:22:52. > :22:55.this debate. There is real dangers associated with legalising assisted
:22:56. > :23:00.suicide, or euthanasia, and the role of Parliament is to take into
:23:01. > :23:04.consideration all the facts, not just an emotional or difficult
:23:05. > :23:08.situation, and to consider what is the best for all of society. The
:23:09. > :23:13.dangers are that people who are depressed or who people who feel
:23:14. > :23:17.they are a burden on their family or the NHS will come under pressure,
:23:18. > :23:26.either from external or internal sources, that... The bill makes it
:23:27. > :23:39.quite clear that mental competence is vital here. This is all about
:23:40. > :23:43.personal but on me. It is, but the bill doesn't have any mechanism to
:23:44. > :23:50.ensure that people are not depressed when they access assisted suicide.
:23:51. > :23:53.The bill has many mechanisms to make sure that the vulnerable are
:23:54. > :23:59.protected. At the point of registering your interest in having
:24:00. > :24:06.an assisted suicide, you have to have two separate doctors assessing
:24:07. > :24:10.new at four independent times. Doctors are very good at telling
:24:11. > :24:15.when people are depressed, and if there is any level of doubt at all,
:24:16. > :24:19.they will refuse that person an assisted suicide. So the vulnerable
:24:20. > :24:24.are protected all the way through, and no one with any interest in that
:24:25. > :24:29.person's life, anyone who can have any financial gain from their death,
:24:30. > :24:37.can be involved at any point at all. We believe that friends should be
:24:38. > :24:45.working at the end to setup a campaign to work on this but also to
:24:46. > :24:51.share information about it. If you go to our website, everyone can see
:24:52. > :24:59.all the questions and answers. I just wanted to come in and talk
:25:00. > :25:04.about the independent living movement, and how they feel about
:25:05. > :25:08.this. People have been campaigning for the right for legislation for a
:25:09. > :25:13.assisted living and independent living, and we feel it's not the
:25:14. > :25:17.time to have this debate just now. At the moment, there's a lot of
:25:18. > :25:22.disabled people who are being oppressed by the cuts to social care
:25:23. > :25:28.services, health services, welfare benefit... So a lot of people under
:25:29. > :25:34.pressure. Yes, and that is what makes life intolerable for people.
:25:35. > :25:39.As a society, we should be supporting the right to life, and
:25:40. > :25:45.there are too many dangers and risks with this. There is no right to
:25:46. > :25:48.death. We talk about choice and autonomy over death, and we would
:25:49. > :25:54.absolutely support that people have a dignified death. That means that
:25:55. > :25:59.health services, assisted care services... People talk about life
:26:00. > :26:05.being intolerable, but it is often external factors in society that
:26:06. > :26:11.makes life intolerable. The way that the media portrays disabled people.
:26:12. > :26:15.I just wanted to say that in the last British Social Attitudes
:26:16. > :26:22.Survey, 70% of people with disabilities supported the right to
:26:23. > :26:29.choice at the end of life. In Oregon, where assisted dying has
:26:30. > :26:37.been in place for ten years, there is no reports of pressures for
:26:38. > :26:44.anyone to end their lives. That is an important point. Everyone uses
:26:45. > :27:17.the phrase slippery slope. If we go to a certain place here with this.
:27:18. > :27:19.are talking about. Someone mentioned euthanasia. We're not talking about
:27:20. > :27:26.euthanasia in the bills. We are talking about assisted dying, where
:27:27. > :27:30.the patient himself or herself takes the final steps. Why would it not
:27:31. > :27:36.move further if this were to go through? You mentioned Holland and
:27:37. > :27:40.Belgium. At the start, these countries had the possibilities of
:27:41. > :27:45.moving beyond the terminally ill. If you look at Oregon, there's been
:27:46. > :27:49.absolutely no movement whatsoever in the 16 years the bill has been
:27:50. > :27:55.placed. There was no suggestion that people have been coerced into taking
:27:56. > :27:59.an early death. There has been evidence that that has not
:28:00. > :28:03.happened. As a country that believes in compassion, we ought to be
:28:04. > :28:09.ashamed and angry that we don't allow people who are dying the
:28:10. > :28:16.dignity in death that so many seats. -- so many are looking for. For far
:28:17. > :28:23.too many relatives and grieving friends, the legacy is not of a life
:28:24. > :28:26.well lived, it is the grim death in difficult circumstances. As a
:28:27. > :28:32.society, we need to do better, and give people the right to die with
:28:33. > :28:37.dignity. On the way in today, we saw a big sign saying, this is a home
:28:38. > :28:43.being built for assisted living. I have huge compassion for people who
:28:44. > :28:48.have difficult deaths. I am a GP, and I have worked as a doctor for
:28:49. > :28:52.over 30 years. I have seen many difficult things, but I think the
:28:53. > :28:57.answer to people having difficult births is to improve the medical
:28:58. > :29:06.care, the nursing care, and great advances have been made in that in
:29:07. > :29:14.hospices and other places. There are a small number of cases where
:29:15. > :29:19.palliative care cannot help. In terms of the strength of legislation
:29:20. > :29:26.that is talked about, and the safeguards, I am not a lawmaker. I
:29:27. > :29:31.am a GP who works at the coal face. I look after a large nursing home
:29:32. > :29:34.with a number of beds. Over the 20 years I have been there, I have
:29:35. > :29:39.looked after many people who have died and had lots of concerts --
:29:40. > :29:45.lots of conversations with relatives. Some relatives have said
:29:46. > :29:50.things like, can you not just to speed this up? This is costing
:29:51. > :29:55.thousands of pounds a week. My fear would be, if we enacted legislation,
:29:56. > :30:07.the right to die would lead to a huge problem for all the vulnerable
:30:08. > :30:13.elderly. I am not in favour of a right to die but I want the dying to
:30:14. > :30:20.die with dignity. There is absolutely no evidence of any
:30:21. > :30:24.country which put any pressure on them whatsoever. People who opt for
:30:25. > :30:32.this feisty individuals with a determination to control their own
:30:33. > :30:36.destiny. Good luck to them. I have looked after many people like that.
:30:37. > :30:43.I would like people to die with dignity. Just remember that the
:30:44. > :30:53.organisation that is now called Dignity is the voluntary euthanasia
:30:54. > :30:56.Society. They are looking to improve services in palliative care and
:30:57. > :31:03.generally looking after people as the end of life approaches. I will
:31:04. > :31:07.come to you in a second. There is this principle of double effect. You
:31:08. > :31:11.give people drugs, not with the intention of killing them, but
:31:12. > :31:18.knowing that the consequences may well be that their life ends. That
:31:19. > :31:25.is while you are easing their pain. There are grey areas. I do not think
:31:26. > :31:33.that is the case. I help people to die. I do not intend to kill them.
:31:34. > :31:40.They will die as a result. We will all die. Death and taxes and all
:31:41. > :31:45.that. I can remember visiting someone at home before we had these
:31:46. > :31:50.syringes to put into people and doctors used to visit people every
:31:51. > :31:54.three, four hours. I was visiting an elderly lady and gave her her
:31:55. > :32:03.injection. Within two minutes, she died. The relatives looked at me...
:32:04. > :32:08.Tony Nicholson starved himself to death because he was not allowed to
:32:09. > :32:14.have a dignified death. Which would you rather? Would you rather
:32:15. > :32:21.somebody had that 20 minutes and just drifted away? I would rather,
:32:22. > :32:29.as a society, we actually care for people and not kill them. I just
:32:30. > :32:37.want to correct the doctor. I do wish doctors would keep themselves
:32:38. > :32:41.up to date. There is no such society as the Voluntary Euthanasia
:32:42. > :32:48.Society. It disappeared three, four decades ago. I have a great
:32:49. > :32:52.interest. I became isolated from my family about two decades ago. I
:32:53. > :32:57.attended a lecture by a gentleman from America telling me how I can
:32:58. > :33:00.dispose of myself when I choose to go. Unlike this doctor here, I do
:33:01. > :33:08.not want anything to do with care homes. I have no intention of going
:33:09. > :33:13.into one. My personal GP knows I am not to be put into a care home. Do
:33:14. > :33:19.not tell us the process. You know how to do it, and the doctor has
:33:20. > :33:30.told you... Would you help anyone else to do it? I'd do it all the
:33:31. > :33:35.time but I am not supposed to give details. How many times have you
:33:36. > :33:41.done it? I have done it three times already. There is a lady who has
:33:42. > :33:46.contact me at the present time because she has seen my videos and
:33:47. > :33:50.other videos and DVDs and she knows she can trust me. The point is that
:33:51. > :33:57.doctors should not be concerned with this. I sat in the House of Lords in
:33:58. > :34:05.2003 and heard the lady who was head of the British geriatric
:34:06. > :34:08.Association. I am sorry, I am 84, I have difficulty in remembering. She
:34:09. > :34:12.said she does not see why doctors need to be concerned with this at
:34:13. > :34:18.all. It is nothing to do with doctors. What happens in Oregon, no
:34:19. > :34:22.doctor is allowed to be in the room and help the person to die. This
:34:23. > :34:30.talk for years about physician assisted suicide is garbage. It only
:34:31. > :34:36.occurs in the Netherlands and Belgium. I understand. That was a
:34:37. > :34:41.fascinating contribution, if I may say so. The doctor still has two
:34:42. > :34:46.write prescriptions. You cannot exclude them from the process. They
:34:47. > :34:52.will write these prescriptions under the legislation. A lot has been said
:34:53. > :34:57.about Oregon. There is a study and evidence was given to the Scottish
:34:58. > :35:01.Parliament. She found 26% of patients in Oregon where depressed.
:35:02. > :35:09.That says to me there is a real danger. No matter how many
:35:10. > :35:18.safeguards you try. Depression is associated with a terminal illness.
:35:19. > :35:22.I understand that. I do not agree with this gentleman but I am in awe
:35:23. > :35:28.of his candidness. I would like to know how he feels he can make a
:35:29. > :35:32.judgment to make that action in a way that we are struggling and
:35:33. > :35:41.grappling to do for the rest of society? We say that is all OK. It
:35:42. > :35:46.is a very dangerous precedent to be setting. It is a Rubicon being
:35:47. > :35:54.crossed. No matter the need your brother felt. That is extremely
:35:55. > :36:04.dangerous. He has not heard the story. I asked you a question. I
:36:05. > :36:16.will ask you your question when this is over. Legal compassion does not
:36:17. > :36:21.allow me to walk away. We accept that. That is a conversation after
:36:22. > :36:29.we are off air for all sorts of reasons. I think we are all right
:36:30. > :36:34.now. What would you like to say? This entire discussion has proved we
:36:35. > :36:39.need a bill like this to pass. It is happening in society. We have proved
:36:40. > :36:43.it. We need this bill to pass so there is legislation in place for
:36:44. > :36:48.these people to have the end of life they deserve. The gentleman in the
:36:49. > :37:01.blue tie. Sky I am a pharmacist, health care professional. I take --
:37:02. > :37:08.doctors and pharmacists are all bound by a code of ethics. In
:37:09. > :37:11.pharmacy, we have to make sure a patient is our first concern. There
:37:12. > :37:18.are a lot of issues around well-being. I totally sympathise
:37:19. > :37:22.with people who might say, well, people should have a dignified right
:37:23. > :37:29.to die and all that kind of thing. In the end, I feel this bill flies
:37:30. > :37:33.in the face of everything, the duties we have to adhere to as
:37:34. > :37:38.health care professionals. At the end of the day, we should do no
:37:39. > :37:42.harm. Allowing someone to drive does harm. The doctor who gave this
:37:43. > :37:48.kitchen for my brother said, as a doctor, my first duty is to preserve
:37:49. > :37:51.life. In Switzerland, I have an extra duty. I will write a
:37:52. > :37:57.description to enable you to end your life. They make it work in
:37:58. > :38:02.Switzerland. In Oregon, doctors are not regarded as murdering monsters.
:38:03. > :38:08.Health care and social care professionals work OK in Oregon.
:38:09. > :38:14.Nobody has... The state works well. A lot of people are merely
:38:15. > :38:27.depressed. People are unhappy they are dying. Depression is part of
:38:28. > :38:32.their illness. Most of the health care professionals have a great
:38:33. > :38:36.relationship with patients. That is nonsense as well. It sounds as
:38:37. > :38:41.though doctors are against this whereas the rest of the population
:38:42. > :38:45.is in favour of it. I have been a practising doctor all my life and I
:38:46. > :38:49.am sure that, with terminally ill patients, they should have the right
:38:50. > :38:56.to determine their own death. Nobody else. How would you limit it to
:38:57. > :39:05.terminally ill patients? The Bill goes further. What you see is an
:39:06. > :39:12.incremental extension. That has happened in Belgium this week. There
:39:13. > :39:16.is no incremental extension within Oregon where there was a terminally
:39:17. > :39:22.ill Bill, i.e. A dying with dignity act. There has been no extension.
:39:23. > :39:31.There is a difference with this bill, I wish it well. It does not
:39:32. > :39:35.represent my bills. -- my views. The bill was proposed a few years ago
:39:36. > :39:41.and it was up for public consultation. According to
:39:42. > :39:46.Parliamentary briefing, 86% of responses were proposed. That
:39:47. > :39:55.included the medical Association and different faith groups, disability
:39:56. > :40:02.groups. The next bill she has introduced includes people with
:40:03. > :40:06.progressive conditions. I have to look at the bill in front of me and
:40:07. > :40:12.not what Bill might be produced several years down the line to amend
:40:13. > :40:16.but I support it. It is a conscience decision in Parliament and I support
:40:17. > :40:20.it. I would like to see some amendments. I would like to see
:40:21. > :40:25.terminal illness cleared up as the thing that is required. I came into
:40:26. > :40:30.this very sceptical. I believe that life is unique and everyone has a
:40:31. > :40:35.right to theirs. That is what makes us all equal from Prince to pauper.
:40:36. > :40:38.The stories that were cared by the first consideration of this bill,
:40:39. > :40:42.like the kind of things that were going on but we have heard, it
:40:43. > :40:50.showed the need to have this debate, to have the regulation brought in
:40:51. > :40:55.and to have this confronted. Rather than putting hands over our eyes and
:40:56. > :41:01.fingers in our is AMP attended it is not happening. As a parliamentarian,
:41:02. > :41:06.I cannot be deaf to all of this. Thank you so much for coming in.
:41:07. > :41:16.We're out of time on this. Thank you very much indeed. You can join in
:41:17. > :41:25.all this morning 's debates by logging on and joining in the
:41:26. > :41:31.discussion. Tell us what you think about our last question, do
:41:32. > :41:34.religions need gods? You can join in all this morning's debates by
:41:35. > :41:44.logging on to the website and following the link to the online
:41:45. > :41:46.discussion. Yesterday, many Buddhists celebrated Nirvana Day,
:41:47. > :41:50.when the 80-year-old enlightened Buddha died and obtained release
:41:51. > :41:54.from the cycle of death and rebirth. Today around 300 million people
:41:55. > :41:57.follow the path shown by the Buddha. They believe that leading a moral
:41:58. > :42:00.life, being mindful of thoughts and actions, and developing wisdom and
:42:01. > :42:13.understanding is the way to true happiness. But they don't believe in
:42:14. > :42:26.a god. Do religions need gods? Good morning. You have this concept. The
:42:27. > :42:30.impact of, . Individually, you are working towards Nirvana,
:42:31. > :42:35.enlightenment. It is an unguided process. There is no top man, no at
:42:36. > :42:46.the knee straight. How does that work? -- admin. We can get buried in
:42:47. > :42:53.semantics. I suspect what Christians might call God, Buddhists would call
:42:54. > :42:56.nature. If Christians would say something like, the kingdom of God
:42:57. > :43:01.is within you or the kingdom of heaven is within you, that is what
:43:02. > :43:10.we call good nature. We all have that and we can access that. That is
:43:11. > :43:14.why we spend a lot of time in reflection and meditation. Karma is
:43:15. > :43:19.a word that gets bandied about a lot but it really just means action,
:43:20. > :43:24.cause and effect. What causes actions and the effect of the
:43:25. > :43:28.actions. You can apply it to all the previous subjects you have been
:43:29. > :43:40.talking about. It applies to all of them. There is no God to pray to.
:43:41. > :43:46.You do not have to and all the sides this principle into being, I do not
:43:47. > :43:52.know, how you might think of some sun -- someone in heaven with a
:43:53. > :44:08.beard or something like that. Not as a guide, creator, all seeing, the
:44:09. > :44:11.Kim Jong Un ill in the sky? The Buddha became fully enlightened. We
:44:12. > :44:17.all have the same potential to become enlightened. It is our
:44:18. > :44:25.destiny. I have not heard so much of it in the eight series of The Big
:44:26. > :44:32.Questions. These are mine to states and get ourselves into. We also have
:44:33. > :44:39.a Hindu monk. You have similar beliefs but you have a God.
:44:40. > :44:46.Is that because you need someone to pray to? The understanding that
:44:47. > :44:56.Hindus have a god is completely different to what is thought about
:44:57. > :45:00.in religions that have a deity. Hinduism is a belief in a number of
:45:01. > :45:08.different traditions that are very different. For all of them, there is
:45:09. > :45:11.a unifying, underlying, all pervasive energy of consciousness,
:45:12. > :45:18.which is completely different to any chap in the sky playing with us with
:45:19. > :45:25.puppet strings. The life force? I think I can hear it now! Many people
:45:26. > :45:36.have referred us back to Star Wars and The Matrix! People were actually
:45:37. > :45:42.impressed by our philosophy, where it started from. Is it right to say
:45:43. > :45:49.that you broke away from Buddhism? Actually, it is the other way
:45:50. > :46:03.around! The original divine revelation for Hindus was in 1500
:46:04. > :46:08.BC. 95% of it says that this existence had origin in something
:46:09. > :46:13.that was existing, and 1% says that there wasn't any existence. This is
:46:14. > :46:16.the tradition that we have. We believe there was existence, but
:46:17. > :46:27.Buddhists believe there was no existence beforehand. Actually,
:46:28. > :46:36.that's not correct! Jimmy, you are a seventh day Adventist. How do you
:46:37. > :46:42.imagine God? God existed first. We don't know how he came to be. How
:46:43. > :46:49.did you imagine him? We imagine him as a person who loves us very much.
:46:50. > :46:55.So what does he look like? We have some clues in the Bible. The Bible
:46:56. > :47:04.writers gave us some ideas by which they attributed some human
:47:05. > :47:15.attributes. They use stuff that they can relate to. It sounds like a big
:47:16. > :47:19.invisible person. You think that literally he has an arm? I think
:47:20. > :47:26.literally he exists, and he is a person. He is not someone we can
:47:27. > :47:32.just put somewhere and use when we need to. We exist as Christians, and
:47:33. > :47:38.Christianity exists because of him. The interesting point about 1500 BC.
:47:39. > :47:42.All of us are using the term BC, which means before Christ.
:47:43. > :47:48.Interesting to me that Jesus has always been a part of humanity, and
:47:49. > :47:53.that all of our developed thinking that we have today has much of its
:47:54. > :48:00.roots... Actually, historians don't use the term BC any more. This is
:48:01. > :48:03.very interesting, because the social science literature on religion shows
:48:04. > :48:08.that it doesn't really matter what you believe. When you ask people
:48:09. > :48:16.about their religious... Can I put something into context? Ani Rinchen
:48:17. > :48:24.Khandro has, and no God. Bramchari Vrajviran Sharan has karma and a
:48:25. > :48:32.God. And Jimmy has a God and no karma! And you have nothing! And
:48:33. > :48:36.proud of it! The social science literature shows that it is all
:48:37. > :48:39.about your religious participation and your social network that is
:48:40. > :48:44.built up around your religion, and not about your beliefs. There is no
:48:45. > :48:49.correlation between mental health benefits and charitable giving
:48:50. > :48:54.benefits to your religious beliefs, but it is to your social network,
:48:55. > :48:58.which comes about from your religious participation. That is the
:48:59. > :49:03.nice thing about things like the humanist Society. They give an
:49:04. > :49:08.opportunity for community participation, but without all of
:49:09. > :49:15.the absolute nonsense, not to put too fine a point on it, that we have
:49:16. > :49:21.just heard! That is a bit disrespectful. Is there something in
:49:22. > :49:26.our society now that leads people to think that this is possible, the
:49:27. > :49:30.best bits of religion but no God? Most people in this country believe
:49:31. > :49:37.there is a God, but only just. The numbers of people who believe in God
:49:38. > :49:43.are falling. Also the kind of god we believe in is changing, from a
:49:44. > :49:47.personal God to a spirit. But it is a misconception that most people --
:49:48. > :49:52.most religious people believe in God. Amongst Anglicans, about two
:49:53. > :49:59.thirds believe in God. Amongst Jews it's fewer, and amongst Hindus --
:50:00. > :50:03.amongst Buddhists it's even fewer. Religion is all about identity,
:50:04. > :50:08.belonging to a group, ethics and practices. For some is it dashed --
:50:09. > :50:15.for some it is about a belief in God, but not for all. The lady over
:50:16. > :50:22.here just said we are moving away from a God that is personalised, and
:50:23. > :50:31.moving into a spirit. I think we are actually going back to spirituality.
:50:32. > :50:35.If you read back, if you go to some African tribes, they believe in
:50:36. > :50:41.their ancestry, which is the spiritual aspect of it. We are going
:50:42. > :50:51.back to spirituality, rather than saying we believe in one God. You
:50:52. > :51:01.have the spirituality. Do you want a comeback in? I spirituality, did you
:51:02. > :51:06.mean consciousness? We all have that and it gets a reborn time and time
:51:07. > :51:11.again. We don't have this idea of before creation and the end of
:51:12. > :51:16.creation. For us, it is about time without beginning, time without end,
:51:17. > :51:24.and we are part of that because we are born countless times again. And
:51:25. > :51:31.you come back as different things? What happens to us depends on us. We
:51:32. > :51:40.take responsibility for our actions. That is what karma is. It is cause
:51:41. > :51:46.and effect. It is similar to the Abrahamic religions. A sense of
:51:47. > :51:52.cause and effect. But not a judgement. It is a law, like
:51:53. > :51:56.gravity. So according to that law, are people who are born with
:51:57. > :52:01.disabilities being punished for something they have previously
:52:02. > :52:07.done? There is no concept of punishment or judgement. Is that
:52:08. > :52:18.because of something? Everything is due to karma. Is that a yes? It is
:52:19. > :52:23.not a punishment. There are a lot of things that are unpleasant. Being
:52:24. > :52:31.born is unpleasant, dying is unpleasant, losing money can be
:52:32. > :52:39.unpleasant. But talking about reality... What is Nirvana like when
:52:40. > :52:47.you have had the impact of karma and you reach enlightenment, and you
:52:48. > :52:52.arrive at Nirvana? It is merging into the energy of the divine
:52:53. > :52:58.being, which is eternal consciousness and bliss. Have you
:52:59. > :53:03.touched it? Have you felt it? In our meditations, we do, and we do
:53:04. > :53:07.believe we can access this. As a Buddhist, I am sure that when you
:53:08. > :53:13.are meditating, you do access calmness, stillness and bliss. And
:53:14. > :53:19.that is what we believe. Colin, can I recommend this to you? There is a
:53:20. > :53:27.verse in the Bible that says that God is a sense of eternity in men's
:53:28. > :53:36.hearts. And women's heart! Are you all saying the same thing? In a
:53:37. > :53:42.sense, we are sharing that cost must together in our ideology. But the
:53:43. > :53:49.discussions have gone in two directions. One is looking for a God
:53:50. > :53:56.within, and that is very much expressed in what we would call the
:53:57. > :54:06.New Age movement. Ward is within me, -- God is within me, and I cant.
:54:07. > :54:11.Dot. -- and I can... And the other thing is to look for God. Your
:54:12. > :54:18.question was, what does God look like? That is a question we asked
:54:19. > :54:25.Jesus. Jesus says, if you are seeing me, you are seeing the father. It
:54:26. > :54:30.has been great listening to all these different ideas about the
:54:31. > :54:34.nature of our existence, from this extremely diverse society we live
:54:35. > :54:39.in, Buddhists, Hindus and Christians of all colours. Humanism is all
:54:40. > :54:43.about the things that unite us and don't divide us. What we should be
:54:44. > :54:50.doing in this era when religion is in decline, when people don't look
:54:51. > :55:03.to religion, is look for the need for column -- for common values, the
:55:04. > :55:13.need to be respected and loved. In terms of religion, I am a Christian.
:55:14. > :55:20.Religion is a relationship with Jesus Christ. That makes all the
:55:21. > :55:27.difference, because I believe, as Christians do, that Jesus Christ,
:55:28. > :55:33.God's son, lived amongst us, do died on the cross, and was resurrected on
:55:34. > :55:42.the third day. That is unique with regard to face around the world. I
:55:43. > :55:51.am a Christian, and it is only through faith that we discover this
:55:52. > :55:56.amazing relationship with God. Ani Rinchen Khandro has an amazing Will
:55:57. > :56:01.Asian ship with energy. I also have an amazing relationship with Christ.
:56:02. > :56:06.It's not that I don't believe he existed, or I cannot take guidance
:56:07. > :56:13.from him. Christ was Jewish. I actually saw him in a vision. What
:56:14. > :56:18.happened? I was very sick at the time, and Christ appeared, and my
:56:19. > :56:33.thought was, what are you doing here? As you would! It was odd,
:56:34. > :56:38.because I was not yet a Buddhist. That is proof there is something in
:56:39. > :56:48.it, because Christ appeared to her? I would agree. I wrote a book about
:56:49. > :56:53.angels, and I have quite a lot of experience in that. Have you seen an
:56:54. > :56:59.angel? I haven't seen one, but I feel the presence of God, and I'm
:57:00. > :57:03.aware of angels around me. I was in an accident, and a voice said to me,
:57:04. > :57:08.do not your foot on the brake. I didn't put my foot on the break.
:57:09. > :57:13.When the AA came, they said, most people would have put their foot on
:57:14. > :57:23.the brake. Why didn't you? And I said, I believe that God is with me.
:57:24. > :57:32.That is literally incredible. This discussion shows proportioning your
:57:33. > :57:37.beliefs to the evidence. There are a number of people who have a number
:57:38. > :57:46.of beliefs in God and energy, which I didn't realise was a thing! We
:57:47. > :57:51.keep getting the terminology wrong! The point is, one should always
:57:52. > :57:56.apportion those beliefs to the evidence, which is what sceptics and
:57:57. > :58:01.scientists try to do, because otherwise you get into endless
:58:02. > :58:05.discussions. Only your version of evidence counts. On the last
:58:06. > :58:08.programme we were on together, you said that you thought consciousness
:58:09. > :58:19.was evolution. How'd know what you are saying? We are going to have to
:58:20. > :58:24.end on disharmony. Give them all a round of applause, please! The
:58:25. > :58:30.debate continues on Twitter. Next week, we are in Oxford, weather
:58:31. > :58:31.permitting. For now, goodbye, and thanks for watching The Big
:58:32. > :58:38.Questions.