:00:14. > :00:27.agreements, and moral tales. -- prenup joule.
:00:28. > :00:38.Good morning, I am Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions, we are
:00:39. > :00:39.live from Jack Hunt School in Peterborough.
:00:40. > :00:46.Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions! Now, on Monday,
:00:47. > :00:49.Parliament will be asked to vote on whether the Secretary of State for
:00:50. > :00:53.Health should have the power to close hospitals in England even if
:00:54. > :00:58.the staff and local communities are opposed. It is a matter of keen
:00:59. > :01:02.interest here in Peterborough, where the local hospital is in deep
:01:03. > :01:08.financial trouble. Has the time come to phase out local hospitals?
:01:09. > :01:13.Welcome to Professor Terence Stephenson, chair of the Academy Of
:01:14. > :01:18.Medical Royal Colleges. It is great to have you here, how is phasing out
:01:19. > :01:23.local hospitals putting patients first? It is always couched as
:01:24. > :01:27.hospital closure, but it is hardly ever that. What the people in this
:01:28. > :01:31.audience want is the right treatment in the right place at the right
:01:32. > :01:35.time. I have spent the last week from dawn to dusk looking after a
:01:36. > :01:39.emergencies, and what is preventing doctors from me giving people like
:01:40. > :01:43.this the best quality they can is the fact that we are trying to run
:01:44. > :01:48.20th century hospitals with 21st century medicine. Two things we are
:01:49. > :01:53.struggling with - one is that all the evidence from strokes, trauma,
:01:54. > :01:56.cancer, heart attacks, is if anyone in this room is ill, their best
:01:57. > :02:02.chance of surviving that illness is to be treated somewhere where we do
:02:03. > :02:07.lots of it. Expertise. Expertise, you know that, if you have a flat
:02:08. > :02:11.pack, you build a couple of year, they don't fit together. If you are
:02:12. > :02:16.doing ten a day, you get very good at it. Not talking furniture, we are
:02:17. > :02:22.talking people. Same principle, the more you do, the better you get. The
:02:23. > :02:27.second point is that on a Sunday morning, there will be 200 hospitals
:02:28. > :02:34.open for children's emergencies. About half of those will only add
:02:35. > :02:38.mid sixth or seven children. In half of those, 50 hospitals, they will be
:02:39. > :02:42.less than 30 Minutes Drive from another hospital admitting seven
:02:43. > :02:48.children. Currently we cannot staff them properly. They will be short of
:02:49. > :02:53.paediatricians and children's nurses, so we cannot staff them, and
:02:54. > :02:57.we need to have the volume and expertise. So for some people, it
:02:58. > :03:03.will be a longer journey. For some people, it will be a 30 minute
:03:04. > :03:07.journey. Does this make sense? You have time this very well, because
:03:08. > :03:10.last week in the BMJ there was a publication that showed the number
:03:11. > :03:15.of hospitals we have compared to other countries in the OECD is
:03:16. > :03:19.extremely low. We have got to few hospitals already in this country.
:03:20. > :03:25.We have already seen the number of beds cut down to under 150,000 in
:03:26. > :03:28.the last 20 years. Some of that is due to changes that need to happen,
:03:29. > :03:34.but we have occupancy rates of more than 90%, when the safe level is
:03:35. > :03:38.around 85%. Clinically, this could be very dangerous. I will come back
:03:39. > :03:42.to the point about how the tax and strokes, I'd agree that there is
:03:43. > :03:47.clear evidence that centralising some services can improve survival.
:03:48. > :03:50.-- heart attacks. But other conditions, if you close your local
:03:51. > :03:54.hospital, what happens to acute asthmatics who have to travel
:03:55. > :03:58.further? What happens to a choking child? What happens to other medical
:03:59. > :04:06.emergencies? That data does not look at that, so this is dangerous, and
:04:07. > :04:13.what we have seen in the austerity that is happening at the moment,
:04:14. > :04:18.this is not about clinical decisions, it is about finance. If
:04:19. > :04:22.you increase health care spending, this is from the IMF, Stanford
:04:23. > :04:27.University, if you increase spending, it's the late economic
:04:28. > :04:31.growth, not having a negative effect because you keep the population
:04:32. > :04:33.healthier, so we need to go completely against the austerity
:04:34. > :04:40.agenda, which is damaging the health of the population and decreasing the
:04:41. > :04:43.number of services, which will lead to increasing privatisation and
:04:44. > :04:50.medical insurance is outrageous. Outrageous! Julia Manning, this is
:04:51. > :04:55.outrageous, but you believe that keeping a lot of local hospitals
:04:56. > :05:00.open, they are not safe. Absolutely, they are not safe, and this is not
:05:01. > :05:05.about cutting services, it is about changing the way we deliver services
:05:06. > :05:09.so they are fit for this generation and the next generation. We have
:05:10. > :05:13.people going to hospitals even though most of us know that you are
:05:14. > :05:17.not in there, when you have an operation, you might be in for a
:05:18. > :05:22.week or two. A lot of surgery is day surgery. We need to be using what we
:05:23. > :05:27.have in terms of resources and people in a much more intelligent
:05:28. > :05:30.way so that we can meet the needs of the current population, which is
:05:31. > :05:34.growing. But you are not meeting their needs if they have to travel
:05:35. > :05:39.further to visit relatives in hospitals will stop that has got to
:05:40. > :05:45.be bad for anyone recovering in hospital, and that might be a
:05:46. > :05:47.consequence of this. We need to remember that the majority of health
:05:48. > :05:51.care takes place in the community already, and that is where the most
:05:52. > :05:56.patient-professional contact takes place, in primary care. Hospitals
:05:57. > :06:01.are only a small part of the NHS, but we seem to have a national
:06:02. > :06:04.hospitals service, instead of a National Health Service. We need to
:06:05. > :06:09.make it fit for purpose for this century. We are not using technology
:06:10. > :06:12.the way I should. It is nonsense that I should have to go to a
:06:13. > :06:16.hospital to see a consultant to have a conversation I could have on the
:06:17. > :06:22.phone, they then tell me I need to have tests, tests I could have at a
:06:23. > :06:29.GP's surgery. We are not using technology in new that we should,
:06:30. > :06:34.whether that is referrals... The evidence base, apart from a few
:06:35. > :06:39.selective conditions, is, by their own admission, weak. We need to have
:06:40. > :06:46.these discussions on a case-by-case basis. The public is not
:06:47. > :06:49.convinced... I am sick of being patronised by experts who tell me
:06:50. > :06:53.that it is better for my health to close my local hospital, you know,
:06:54. > :06:58.and I think we need to be having these discussions in our local
:06:59. > :07:02.community. We were told no decision about me without me, and yet they
:07:03. > :07:07.are trying to bring in a fast-track... Do you think this is a
:07:08. > :07:11.circumventing local democracy? Explicitly. As someone who has
:07:12. > :07:16.campaigned against hospital privatisation, 40 days is no time to
:07:17. > :07:24.save your local hospital. Let's look at the evidence, these big centres
:07:25. > :07:30.of excellence, is there concrete statistical evidence that they save
:07:31. > :07:34.lives, Julia Manning? When there are specialist centres, yes, absolutely.
:07:35. > :07:41.We want to go to a specialist centre. Lives have been saved?
:07:42. > :07:45.Absolutely! If I had a rare tumour in my eye, I would only go to the
:07:46. > :07:49.Royal Liverpool Hospital, where they specialise. There is no expertise in
:07:50. > :07:54.the world better than that, I will take a train to go to that. But the
:07:55. > :07:57.bigger picture is we have a ?30 billion funding gap in the next
:07:58. > :08:03.eight years, and that is just book-keeping services as they are.
:08:04. > :08:07.Where do we get that from? -- just for keeping. We want to take it from
:08:08. > :08:14.education or raise taxes? You are looking, on the average salary, an
:08:15. > :08:19.extra ?100 per month. And it is going to get worse as the population
:08:20. > :08:25.gets older, and part of the problem with these monster mortgages that
:08:26. > :08:32.the hospitals have as a result of the Private Finance initiative, they
:08:33. > :08:36.are just frightening! Sorry, they were set in sunnier times, back at a
:08:37. > :08:39.rate of interest they would never be paying back now. Julie is right
:08:40. > :08:44.about specialist centres, but we need both, your specialist centres
:08:45. > :08:48.and smaller hospitals. I am a cancer specialist and a specialist
:08:49. > :08:51.hospital, but I do peripheral clinics in local hospitals to
:08:52. > :08:55.deliver a service to the wider community. You cannot afford to have
:08:56. > :09:00.the equipment in every hospital, it is extremely costly and you need a
:09:01. > :09:03.lot of expertise. Actually, we need more funding of the health service,
:09:04. > :09:08.people are saying, where are you going to get it from? We wasting
:09:09. > :09:14.billions on a health care market, we have this split with GPs buying
:09:15. > :09:19.supplies from hospitals, and that's just drives up costs. It is wasting
:09:20. > :09:24.?10 billion a year. We have got huge tax avoidance problems, ?70 billion
:09:25. > :09:31.a year in tax avoidance, so we need HMRC to focus on the big people,
:09:32. > :09:38.thousands of people... And we need to... Professor Stevenson, get your
:09:39. > :09:43.hands ready, I will be coming around the audience, I know this is an
:09:44. > :09:47.important issue locally. Professor Stevenson, clamping down on tax
:09:48. > :09:52.avoidance, is that ever going to be enough to pay for what we need in
:09:53. > :09:59.the future? It is not about pain. I started by giving people the best
:10:00. > :10:03.quality care we can. -- paying. We like behind Sweden and Norway, where
:10:04. > :10:09.people realise that the best quality care is not delivered by having 220
:10:10. > :10:20.hospitals. They have far higher tax rates. There are other differences.
:10:21. > :10:24.I worked in a centre for 22 years, and I never had a patient or
:10:25. > :10:27.bulletin saying, I don't want to go by aeroplane to Glasgow or
:10:28. > :10:33.Newcastle. -- patient or relative. Every time they said, I want to go
:10:34. > :10:37.where I can get the best treatment possible. Good morning. A quick
:10:38. > :10:42.point so we can get through them all. We have to see this in the
:10:43. > :10:47.economy as a whole. The public-private partnership, we have
:10:48. > :10:53.to see there is an argument that there is no money here, a funding
:10:54. > :10:57.gap. There is money in the economy here. Take the example of the big
:10:58. > :11:05.banks which are taking bailouts from the Government. Just last year, RBS
:11:06. > :11:11.had billions in their profits, paying out 9 billion in bonuses of
:11:12. > :11:15.executives. That is what is going on in this economy. Why can't this
:11:16. > :11:23.money be thrown into health services and hospitals? The Professor here.
:11:24. > :11:28.If you were really ill and had cancer, we have a great new district
:11:29. > :11:31.hospital in Peterborough which has financial problems because of
:11:32. > :11:35.Labour's failed private finance initiative, but if you have cancer
:11:36. > :11:44.here, you would want to go to Adam Brookes, which is a teaching
:11:45. > :11:48.hospital. -- Addenbrooke's. I think we have to look at what is driving
:11:49. > :11:53.the proposed laws to the Care Bill, and that was brought in by Jeremy
:11:54. > :11:58.Hunt tried to insert this clause to give him unprecedented powers to
:11:59. > :12:02.close local hospitals. Because of the situation in Lewisham. Where he
:12:03. > :12:08.was deemed to have acted beyond his powers. But what we are seeing with
:12:09. > :12:12.the closures, a lot of the closures are things like A services. To
:12:13. > :12:19.give an example of the consequences of that, in Chase Farm Hospital in
:12:20. > :12:25.London, they closed the A service there. Weeks later, a mother rushed
:12:26. > :12:28.her young child over to Chase Farm Hospital, not realising that the
:12:29. > :12:32.servers had closed. As a consequence, she had to rush around
:12:33. > :12:38.to find another hospital, increasing the travel distance, and there was a
:12:39. > :12:46.tragic incident where that child sadly died. Is that a trade union
:12:47. > :12:52.badge? It is, yes. We do not know the individual situation there,
:12:53. > :12:57.Julia Manning, but are these inevitable consequences of closures?
:12:58. > :13:04.That is a tragic, tragic story, and our heart obviously goes out, but
:13:05. > :13:08.that is a failure of publicity and telling the public what is going on
:13:09. > :13:14.with their health services. That is why this debate is so important,
:13:15. > :13:19.because the public needs to realise that we have a gap in funding but
:13:20. > :13:24.that does not take into account rising incidences of diabetes, sight
:13:25. > :13:30.loss, dementia, and we cannot go on funding buildings and pouring money
:13:31. > :13:35.into them. We need to put money into people and services. And it is not
:13:36. > :13:39.about closure, it is about transferring and changing. We are
:13:40. > :13:42.continually told that our suspicions are wrong, we were told in
:13:43. > :13:47.Peterborough that the private finance initiative scheme was not an
:13:48. > :13:52.affordable, that it was conspiracy talk, and then we are told it was an
:13:53. > :13:57.absolute catastrophe. -- unaffordable. I think our fears are
:13:58. > :14:00.grounded, and they need to be heard. Where I live, there is a district
:14:01. > :14:04.general hospital that people have fought to save, and we are now being
:14:05. > :14:08.told that the services, it is not the best place, the kind of points
:14:09. > :14:12.you are making, and we will have community-based care, in much the
:14:13. > :14:16.same way that we were told about mental health care and care in the
:14:17. > :14:20.community 20 years ago. Those services simply are not there,
:14:21. > :14:25.district nurses are supposed to be picking up the pieces when little
:14:26. > :14:29.hospitals closed down, and we have lost a lot of beds. These district
:14:30. > :14:37.nurses that are supposedly picking up the pieces, their figures have
:14:38. > :14:39.declined 40% in the last ten years. We still trained doctors and nurses
:14:40. > :14:43.and hospital when the majority of care takes place in the community.
:14:44. > :14:48.In London, they claimed five district nurses only in the last
:14:49. > :14:51.year, and this is supposedly the big new home. Why aren't we looking
:14:52. > :14:55.fundamentally at the way, not just the way the public views services,
:14:56. > :14:59.but the way we plan them, the way be trained staff, we need to make it
:15:00. > :15:03.fit for the next generation. My daughter got the certainty of having
:15:04. > :15:06.her children on the NHS, in a place which is safe, and secure, where
:15:07. > :15:10.she's going to get the best possible outcomes for the above is not going
:15:11. > :15:14.to happen if we don't fundamentally change the way we deliver the
:15:15. > :15:18.majority of services. Is there evidence that people are dying?
:15:19. > :15:22.There is evidence from Newark hospital. That was the AMD closure a
:15:23. > :15:26.couple of years ago, subject to an ongoing investigation, but the
:15:27. > :15:30.mortality rate of people within that region, emergency admissions has
:15:31. > :15:36.gone up by 30% and that needs to be looked at to be confirmed but that's
:15:37. > :15:42.just an example -- A People have to travel further. Ambulance
:15:43. > :15:47.journeys take longer. It has to do come with funding. This government
:15:48. > :15:50.is clear, there's a clear agenda to cut the amount of public spending
:15:51. > :15:56.across the board, not just the health but across the board. Because
:15:57. > :15:59.we don't have the money. Health insurance is coming our way. I'm
:16:00. > :16:05.worried about this but I've co-founded a political party... Who
:16:06. > :16:12.are you standing against? I'm going to stand against David Cameron in
:16:13. > :16:15.Witney on an NHS ticket for 2015, general election, and the people of
:16:16. > :16:19.Witney will have the opportunity to give the NHS they want. If we carry
:16:20. > :16:24.on the way we are, we will lose the NHS. Professor Stevenson, we have
:16:25. > :16:29.debated privatisation on The Big Questions. This leads us to the
:16:30. > :16:36.conclusion that we've heard from Clive, we are losing our National
:16:37. > :16:41.Health Service. Are we? It's not about privatisation. It's not about
:16:42. > :16:45.hospital closure for the Peter Bratt has 184,000 people, 39 miles from
:16:46. > :16:50.Cambridge, not much further from Leicester, two huge centres. If you
:16:51. > :16:54.have a condition which can be treated at home, the best place for
:16:55. > :16:59.it to be treated is at home. If you have something complex that needs
:17:00. > :17:04.more technical expertise, better to go to a centre where the do lots of
:17:05. > :17:09.it. It's not either or. It is misleading the public. There is
:17:10. > :17:12.hardly hospitals closing in the country and there's nothing. They
:17:13. > :17:15.moved to a service where you have immediate urgent care, and if you're
:17:16. > :17:21.seeing in a category which needs help, paramedics transfer you. It's
:17:22. > :17:28.a difficult sell, though. And MPs can't do it. MPs say it will cost
:17:29. > :17:33.them 10,000 votes for that they know that. When someone presented with an
:17:34. > :17:37.illness cover you don't know how old they are until they been assessed.
:17:38. > :17:44.If someone comes another headache and B meningitis or a migraine. They
:17:45. > :17:48.they need to be assessed. They can go an hour down the road. They need
:17:49. > :17:55.to be seen and assessed by expert medical nursing staff of having done
:17:56. > :17:59.that, they need to be triage. That is the modern 21st-century way. It's
:18:00. > :18:02.not about everybody doing everything immediately. Whilst been hearing
:18:03. > :18:04.what individual examples, and there are tragedies, let's not be
:18:05. > :18:10.complacent about the fact that, today, the outcomes of survival of
:18:11. > :18:15.people in this country is worse than France, worse than Germany, Holland,
:18:16. > :18:20.many compatible countries. We want to get up to that standard of care
:18:21. > :18:28.for the Wii won't do that by dwelling on this. If we were
:18:29. > :18:35.starting again, with a blank sheet of paper, wouldn't we be designing a
:18:36. > :18:42.National Health Service rather like the vision that the professor has?
:18:43. > :18:47.Julia Manning is agreeing. I thought she would. Local health centres
:18:48. > :18:52.dealing with those. There's a 12 point blank on upper body funded
:18:53. > :18:59.provided... Rather than your 12 point plan which am sure we will be
:19:00. > :19:04.reading about. Caroline, medical centres and big centres of
:19:05. > :19:07.expertise... No one is arguing for nothing to change, but it's
:19:08. > :19:11.important to remember, in 2010, though independent studies by the
:19:12. > :19:16.Commonwealth fund, the OECD, the NHS, in terms of pounds spent in
:19:17. > :19:17.terms of lives saved, it is one of the most efficient systems and the
:19:18. > :19:23.whole world. APPLAUSE
:19:24. > :19:26.And that's why people are so proud of it in this country.
:19:27. > :19:32.And we hear about the new technologies which can come in. I
:19:33. > :19:38.mean, we heard this message about the 111 service. I hear people
:19:39. > :19:42.laughing. It's a classic example, technology was rolled out, you don't
:19:43. > :19:46.need to go and clog up the hospitals and beds, just call this number for
:19:47. > :19:55.the that's an example of a promise which did not materialise. The last
:19:56. > :20:06.word from the audience. A quick comment. On the terms of saying that
:20:07. > :20:09.these are tragic stories, and they are really sad and can't be helped,
:20:10. > :20:14.and we shouldn't focus on them too much, if I hadn't got to hospital
:20:15. > :20:17.within three minutes of when I had anaphylactic shock, I want to be in
:20:18. > :20:23.the seat, C can't just ignore the tragic stories. If I couldn't get to
:20:24. > :20:27.a hospital, and I had anaphylactic shock now, and the hospital was too
:20:28. > :20:37.far away, I wouldn't survive. What is your name? Ruth. Her situation,
:20:38. > :20:46.she might not be here today. I have worked in the NHS all my life and
:20:47. > :20:49.I've never seen a patient... I believe in the NHS free at the
:20:50. > :20:52.moment of delivery for the I'm asking for an NHS which can deliver
:20:53. > :20:56.21st-century Quay, comparable to other countries, and for you, three
:20:57. > :20:59.minutes coming on the paramedics to come to your home if you're that
:21:00. > :21:03.sick, and get there within three minutes for them don't rely on you
:21:04. > :21:08.somewhere else. The modern world is the medicine comes to you. It takes
:21:09. > :21:12.you to the facility which can best to deliver high-quality care which
:21:13. > :21:13.hopefully will get you to survive. Thank you all very much indeed.
:21:14. > :21:17.Thank you. APPLAUSE
:21:18. > :21:21.If you have something to say about that debate, logon to
:21:22. > :21:27.bbc.co.uk/thebigque stions, and follow the link to where you can
:21:28. > :21:32.join in the discussion online. Or contribute on Twitter. We're also
:21:33. > :21:34.debating live this morning from Peterborough, will pre-nuptial
:21:35. > :21:40.agreements undermine marriage? And are bible stories the way to teach
:21:41. > :21:43.morality? So get tweeting or emailing on those topics now or send
:21:44. > :21:51.us any other ideas or thoughts you may have about the show. On
:21:52. > :21:54.Thursday, the Law Commission recommended that pre-nuptial
:21:55. > :21:56.agreements should be enforceable in the event of a divorce, provided
:21:57. > :21:59.both parties had received legal advice, had disclosed all their
:22:00. > :22:05.assets and the agreement was signed at least four weeks before the
:22:06. > :22:12.ceremony. So there's just about time to pop into your solicitor's, if you
:22:13. > :22:20.are planning an Easter wedding. Will pre-nuptial agreements undermine
:22:21. > :22:23.marriage? What do you think? Certainly. Yes, definitely. Ron,
:22:24. > :22:31.you'd be married a few times. Eight times. I'm on my last. Did you not
:22:32. > :22:36.think every single one of those marriages was going to be forever? I
:22:37. > :22:48.did, you know. It takes two, doesn't it? I've never even thought of
:22:49. > :22:51.prenup tales. In retrospect? -- pre-nuptials to me, it's like
:22:52. > :22:57.saying, you have the fork and I'll have a nice, and then you have a
:22:58. > :23:01.fight about the spoon. LAUGHTER
:23:02. > :23:06.It's pushing people to think about divorce before they even married.
:23:07. > :23:11.You have a lot of faith, which is the appropriate word to use on a
:23:12. > :23:17.Sunday morning. The last woman you married was in Thailand. The latest
:23:18. > :23:20.woman, you thought you were going to be with forever, was from the
:23:21. > :23:26.Philippines. The woman from Thailand, she grabbed and seven
:23:27. > :23:31.going to marry you. She planned the wedding while I was away for that I
:23:32. > :23:34.had no choice. She was going to jump off the balcony. Something was in it
:23:35. > :23:41.for her. She wanted a passport, gold, she wanted everything. Not
:23:42. > :23:45.with me, though. If you had gone to the solicitor and said, you get that
:23:46. > :23:49.no more in the event of our splitting up, would it not
:23:50. > :23:58.approved, if she'd signed it, her genuine devotion to you? No,
:23:59. > :24:00.because, actually, we just went in the registry office, it took five
:24:01. > :24:04.minutes, when it came to the divorce, we we saw the same lady who
:24:05. > :24:14.married us, and she divorced us within five minutes. How romantic!
:24:15. > :24:18.It's so true. No, I mean, I've never believed that. I think it's up to
:24:19. > :24:24.the couple themselves. Francine, you believed it, but isn't it turning
:24:25. > :24:30.marriage into a cold transaction? This is a triumph of cynicism, isn't
:24:31. > :24:34.it? I love those words. No, totally the opposite. This is not a career
:24:35. > :24:39.move. I'm marrying you because I love you, not for any other reason.
:24:40. > :24:43.So whenever you come into the relationship with something, that's
:24:44. > :24:49.what we had, beforehand. And we will keep it, I respect that. I'm
:24:50. > :24:55.marrying you, I love you, but we not having that if we split up. You
:24:56. > :24:58.might have inherited something, there could be family obligations.
:24:59. > :25:04.You could be third time around and you want to leave a legacy for your
:25:05. > :25:08.children having lost a lot in your relationship previously. But I'm
:25:09. > :25:13.marrying you. The first point is, if you have a prenup, you're getting
:25:14. > :25:17.out at the beginning who we are in this relationship. But the most
:25:18. > :25:22.important point is, because I love you, I want to look after you. Even
:25:23. > :25:26.though I want to hold on to what I'm coming in with, for other reasons I
:25:27. > :25:33.might have, when I marry you, you're going to be looked after and we both
:25:34. > :25:37.become... So it's romantic? Yes, because beforehand, I'm saying I'm
:25:38. > :25:40.going to look after you, take these vows of marriage seriously. If we do
:25:41. > :25:45.divorce, what's going to happen afterwards if you're going to be
:25:46. > :25:51.taking care of dollar Ade Omooba does not like this. Just let me
:25:52. > :25:56.finish from moment. If you do it properly, and the couple sit down
:25:57. > :25:59.together, you can make provision for afterwards, you don't wait until the
:26:00. > :26:01.will to see what's happening at that point. You don't wait until the will
:26:02. > :26:10.to see what's happening at that point. The it sets out sensibly
:26:11. > :26:14.about how it should be for the. Marriage is no longer mine, it's
:26:15. > :26:16.ours. If you don't understand the concept of marriage commits to
:26:17. > :26:21.individual people come together and say, we want to stay together for a
:26:22. > :26:28.lifetime. It's a lifetime commitment. Totally agree. You bring
:26:29. > :26:31.it together and becomes ours. If you're so much in love with what you
:26:32. > :26:40.had, before you but the person you are going to marry, going to marry
:26:41. > :26:46.what you had before. Marriage, we speak about it as if it's something
:26:47. > :26:48.which is extremely disabled and requires crutches. If you bring
:26:49. > :26:56.arrangement into it, it only do value set. I think you're valuing it
:26:57. > :27:03.more. Love, selfless, for one another. The moment you bring an
:27:04. > :27:08.arrangement into it, you nullify that and it makes it easy for people
:27:09. > :27:11.to walk away from it. In fact, it's harder for people to walk away from
:27:12. > :27:15.it because of having to walk away from. If I have agreed to marry you
:27:16. > :27:19.knowing that I have what I have and you have what you have, I've made a
:27:20. > :27:22.choice. I've made a choice to be with you, not with what you have, so
:27:23. > :27:27.I'm now... APPLAUSE
:27:28. > :27:32.When you go into married to somebody, you go into it with
:27:33. > :27:39.everything they have and you commit everything together.
:27:40. > :27:45.Marriage is to become one. -- two becomes one. You can have children
:27:46. > :27:48.if you wanted, and the whole family, it's for the better of that one
:27:49. > :27:59.family. You could save money, though. The lawyers fees. They cut
:28:00. > :28:02.back on legal aid for family situations and so, if you get it
:28:03. > :28:07.sorted out beforehand and know who is going to get what, say we were
:28:08. > :28:09.going to get marriage, same-sex marriage, I predict you're not a
:28:10. > :28:42.good fan of that, Francine is talking about pre-nups,
:28:43. > :28:49.I think they undermine the nature of marriage, which is what has already
:28:50. > :28:52.been talked about. And in the Church of England marriage service, the
:28:53. > :28:58.couple say to each other, all that I am, I give to you. All that I have,
:28:59. > :29:01.I share with you. Now, I know that the ideal fulsome and,
:29:02. > :29:06.unfortunately, reality shows a lot of marriages don't last. But when
:29:07. > :29:13.you get pregnant, and you have a baby, you plan the baby shower, the
:29:14. > :29:16.christening, you don't plan the sad eventuality that does happen, the
:29:17. > :29:23.baby dies for the budget don't need to do that with children... Not with
:29:24. > :29:29.the pre-nups as they are now. That brings it down to loss and profit,
:29:30. > :29:33.materialistic view of assets. When, really, pre-nups can be reconfigured
:29:34. > :29:39.and more the way Francine is talking, putting in goals and hope
:29:40. > :29:50.that couple, their expectations, not just reduce it to finance and
:29:51. > :29:57.possessions. You are a lawyer, and you? Yeah. You have dealt with
:29:58. > :30:01.divorce, a divorce lawyer, in fact. In America, it is seen as a business
:30:02. > :30:05.relationship, isn't it, marriage? We have been reading about these stars
:30:06. > :30:10.over the years, and many of us reading with some horror about the
:30:11. > :30:14.clinical nature of the situation, and get all that stuff is coming
:30:15. > :30:20.here. Does it work internationally? It works. Marriage is a partnership,
:30:21. > :30:25.and it is about trust and respect and all that, and it is not just
:30:26. > :30:29.when you look at the prenup, it is how you divide assets, it is more
:30:30. > :30:33.than that, because at that stage the couple are still talking to each
:30:34. > :30:36.other, they trust each other, they want to have a future together. And
:30:37. > :30:43.when you look at, for example, Germany, they have been floods for a
:30:44. > :30:50.long time, not only in America. We hear about actors and rich people,
:30:51. > :30:55.but that is not the reality. When we have them in Germany, it helps the
:30:56. > :30:59.marriage, because at that time, when you consider a prenup or not, you
:31:00. > :31:05.have the choice to do that, and you give security for the future. In
:31:06. > :31:13.Germany, how long is a marriage in Germany, when you get divorced? We
:31:14. > :31:16.have 15 years on average when you actually get divorced. In England we
:31:17. > :31:23.have a very high divorce rate, and it is too high, and I think we need
:31:24. > :31:32.to give the couple the security back, if they want a prenup, fine.
:31:33. > :31:37.You do not like it, do you? You are from the Christadelphians, a
:31:38. > :31:41.Christian group. I agree with Andy, it is a contract between man and
:31:42. > :31:46.woman for life in front of God, not a contract with solicitors, not a
:31:47. > :31:51.contract with lawyers. Jesus was asked about marriage, anti-sense, it
:31:52. > :31:56.is not how God is designed it. One man, one woman together for life,
:31:57. > :32:01.but he said divorce came in because of the hardness of your hearts.
:32:02. > :32:07.People want to do what ever they like. The dowry is a business
:32:08. > :32:13.transaction, a prenup agreement of sorts between families. The Bible is
:32:14. > :32:17.littered with examples of dowries. Rebecca in Genesis, I wrote that
:32:18. > :32:22.stand last night, there are many more. What is the difference? That
:32:23. > :32:27.is true, and the traditions of the time were that. The Bible does not
:32:28. > :32:32.say that you should provide a dowry, they just work, that is an
:32:33. > :32:36.historical account, an accurate historical account. What it says is
:32:37. > :32:40.that marriage is between man and woman for life. The challenge with
:32:41. > :32:44.that is that people died in childbirth, so these days you can
:32:45. > :32:49.have two or three marriages, this gentleman has had eight, there is
:32:50. > :32:54.enough time to do that. When women were giving birth and dying, yes, it
:32:55. > :32:59.was till death do us part, but the couples I am working with, who do
:33:00. > :33:04.have marriages 15, 20, 25 years, the number one thing they argue about
:33:05. > :33:10.when they divorced - money, money, money. And this is what really costs
:33:11. > :33:15.them a lot of money with lawyers. If that had been sorted out, we
:33:16. > :33:22.wouldn't have this problem. Have you got a prenup? I do, I do, and the
:33:23. > :33:25.reason for that is that this is my second marriage, and my first
:33:26. > :33:30.marriage ended very badly, we were very young, and I wish we had have
:33:31. > :33:34.protected our assets. We didn't have any children, and I was taken to the
:33:35. > :33:39.cleaners financially. And therefore with my second marriage, I wanted to
:33:40. > :33:44.make sure that what I had build up again... Was it an easy sell to your
:33:45. > :33:49.partner? I don't want you to take me to the cleaners, like my previous
:33:50. > :33:55.partner? I think he understood where I was coming from, and I don't want
:33:56. > :33:58.to say he was 100% keen on the idea, but certainly he could understand
:33:59. > :34:06.where I was coming from. The situation has changed. You can
:34:07. > :34:09.reaffirm your vows. Yes, we had a clause written into it, were in the
:34:10. > :34:15.event of children, I would revisit it, or we would take steps to do a
:34:16. > :34:21.prenup again. At the moment we have not done anything about it, and it
:34:22. > :34:29.is null and void. There is some steam coming out of 's years!
:34:30. > :34:33.AdeYou do not like this, do you? I do not like it, you have gone into
:34:34. > :34:38.marriage, and you know it is not a bed of roses, we all know that. I
:34:39. > :34:42.have been married for 22 years, I have got three kids, I love my wife
:34:43. > :34:48.and kids to bits. We don't agree all the time on things, but we know that
:34:49. > :34:53.we are committed to its together. Where we disagree, we disagree to
:34:54. > :34:58.agree at the end of the day. We live with the consequences, that is life.
:34:59. > :35:03.As everyone is here today, we don't know what is going to happen
:35:04. > :35:08.tomorrow. That is the ideal, and as a Christian, and I have been married
:35:09. > :35:15.for a very long time myself to the same man, but we know that marriage
:35:16. > :35:20.is not a healthy place for a lot of people, particularly for a lot of
:35:21. > :35:26.women and children. And I like the more creative, flexible approach
:35:27. > :35:29.that you were talking about, and we have to understand divorce, even
:35:30. > :35:35.though Jesus was against it. Luke is right, it is about the hardness of
:35:36. > :35:41.our hearts, but also people having our human nature. If we didn't have
:35:42. > :35:44.an exit route from relationships that were damaging people and
:35:45. > :35:49.destroying people, it would be worse than if they had to stay in them. So
:35:50. > :35:55.we have to deal with it, and the way to do it is, I think, marriage is
:35:56. > :35:58.too easy, divorce is too difficult. Let's make marriage more difficult
:35:59. > :36:06.so you cannot run in and get married to someone you do not know! The way
:36:07. > :36:10.to make marriage... You acknowledge that divorce is necessary
:36:11. > :36:16.sometimes? It is necessary at times, but the problems start before
:36:17. > :36:22.marriage. That is what I am saying. You might love somebody but then
:36:23. > :36:25.they start beating you up! Many people do not understand what love
:36:26. > :36:34.is before they get into marriage. What is love? In 30 years, I have
:36:35. > :36:38.counselled so many people, and I just have two young people in front
:36:39. > :36:44.of me getting married, and I said, do you love each other? Tell me what
:36:45. > :36:47.love is. They don't understand it! What is going to happen once they
:36:48. > :36:51.get into it? I said, are you ready to lay everything you have down for
:36:52. > :36:55.this management she looked at herself and said, yeah. And are you
:36:56. > :37:00.ready to do the same for the? And they both paused. Yes, they were
:37:01. > :37:03.Christians in church! This is the reason I want to sit with you first
:37:04. > :37:09.and talk about love and understanding. Did they get married?
:37:10. > :37:13.I married them, but I spent three months showing them the challenges
:37:14. > :37:21.of marriage to minimise the problem of divorce. Francine. This is where
:37:22. > :37:24.I agree with you, I spoke to a religious leader, and I said I
:37:25. > :37:28.totally believe in marriage and would like to eliminate divorce, and
:37:29. > :37:32.if I could get rid of that word, I would only call at completion
:37:33. > :37:35.anyway. I spoke to a religious leader and I said to him, I know
:37:36. > :37:40.exactly how to take young couples and show them what they are going
:37:41. > :37:43.into, it is like they both have a banner over their heads, a
:37:44. > :37:46.preconception from their upbringing, they started you that they are
:37:47. > :37:50.running. If they knew that they were bringing that strategy into the
:37:51. > :37:53.relationship, when they trigger each other and there is an upset, they
:37:54. > :37:57.will know it is coming from the past. Now, I can show them how to do
:37:58. > :38:05.that so that we can eliminate divorce and we want to get divorced.
:38:06. > :38:10.So we said to me, what you are saying... You could eliminate
:38:11. > :38:15.divorce? I could if I had speak to a couple before they got married. Wait
:38:16. > :38:18.a minute, I said to the sky, we could do that, he said, Francine, so
:38:19. > :38:23.what you are saying to me is you want to take two young people who
:38:24. > :38:26.say they are in love and do not see any fault in each other and you want
:38:27. > :38:30.to show them where they could get triggered? I see what you are
:38:31. > :38:36.saying, but I am not going to do that. Why would I do that to them
:38:37. > :38:38.and take away their dreams? Frank is a divorce lawyer, he does not like
:38:39. > :38:46.the idea of divorce being taken away! Divorce happens, like it or
:38:47. > :38:52.not, OK? It is real. Deal with it, make a deal. That is the way I see
:38:53. > :38:57.it. Ultimately, if you put your plans upfront, you cannot dispute
:38:58. > :38:59.that. By the time it gets to a divorce, people have stopped
:39:00. > :39:04.communicating, there is hate and all sorts. Divorce is not a pleasant
:39:05. > :39:08.place to be. And therefore, if you take steps to protect what you have
:39:09. > :39:13.got up front, it resolves all of that nastiness and hate that
:39:14. > :39:21.happens. We will end with you. If you have an argument, does that crop
:39:22. > :39:28.up at all? Never. It has never cropped up. We discussed it very
:39:29. > :39:38.heavily upfront. For you, it is for ever. It is for ever, yes, and that
:39:39. > :39:43.is definite. Listen... Have some faith and respect! Ten years ago, I
:39:44. > :39:48.was not a Christian. I am now a born Christian, and it has changed my
:39:49. > :39:55.life completely, God has saved me. For the first time in this debate,
:39:56. > :40:04.Ade is looking happy! Thank you. A round of applause for Ron. Thank you
:40:05. > :40:09.very much indeed. You can join the debates by logging onto the BBC
:40:10. > :40:13.website and following the links to the online discussion, or you can
:40:14. > :40:17.tweet using the hashtag #bbctbq. And tell us what you think of our last
:40:18. > :40:22.big question, our Bible stories the way to teach morality? If you would
:40:23. > :40:29.like to be in the audience at a future show, e-mail us. Next week,
:40:30. > :40:31.we are in Cardiff, Newcastle at the 16th, and one week after that
:40:32. > :40:41.Southampton! Well, a recent YouGov poll for the
:40:42. > :40:47.Bible Society found that over 60% of children had never heard, read or
:40:48. > :40:52.seen popular Bible stories like the good Samaritan, or Daniel in the
:40:53. > :40:58.line's den, but the same survey found that parents illustrate good
:40:59. > :41:05.values that children should learn. Our baby way to teach morality? Look
:41:06. > :41:13.from the Christadelphians, good morning again. -- Luke. You teach
:41:14. > :41:18.children the story of Noah. Absolutely. Do you teach them the
:41:19. > :41:24.bit about God deciding to wipe every one of the earth for being wicked?
:41:25. > :41:30.We teach them everything, we teach them the whole Bible, every part. So
:41:31. > :41:34.it is a bit indiscriminate, God killing everybody. If one of the
:41:35. > :41:37.children says, that is a bit cruel, babies and children being killed
:41:38. > :41:42.because some of them have been wicked, what do you say to them?
:41:43. > :41:48.When people say that, and they do, what they forget is that God warned
:41:49. > :41:52.those people for 120 years, and that is in there, and he warned them
:41:53. > :42:00.again and again and again, and he told them that was going to happen.
:42:01. > :42:02.They didn't listen, and finally when it happened, it was regrettable,
:42:03. > :42:07.really regrettable. God did not want it to happen, but he warned them for
:42:08. > :42:12.120 years, and when it did happen, it was on their own head. Well...
:42:13. > :42:17.Would you teach them that the archive every single animal on
:42:18. > :42:25.earth? We do. Kangaroos, polar bears, penguins? We take the Bible
:42:26. > :42:36.literally. What about the sermon on the Mount? Yes. It is remarkable and
:42:37. > :42:42.beautiful. This is one of the puppets reuse. If you have got... If
:42:43. > :42:48.you have got puppets of any other prophets, kindly not show them! We
:42:49. > :42:53.use them for two things, for public preaching, so out in the centre of
:42:54. > :42:59.Peterborough, some people may have seen these. Anyone seen them? And we
:43:00. > :43:02.also use them in Sunday schools, I teach Sunday school on a regular
:43:03. > :43:07.basis and have done for 20 years or so, and I know from my own personal
:43:08. > :43:13.experience, not just from teaching Sunday school, but from myself the
:43:14. > :43:17.morals in the Bible are absolutely fundamental to me, to who I am, to
:43:18. > :43:21.how I act, and I have seen it in children as well that I teach in
:43:22. > :43:25.Sunday school, from the once 20 years ago and the ones I was
:43:26. > :43:30.teaching last Sunday. We use the Bible, we base everything we believe
:43:31. > :43:37.on the Bible, and there is a fantastic thing, stories in the
:43:38. > :43:42.Bible, historical accounts. How does it work? I was hoping you would not
:43:43. > :43:47.do this to me! Have you got a bench early quest act as well enter by I
:43:48. > :43:54.have not, I normally leave the property is to it. -- have you got a
:43:55. > :43:59.ventriloquist's act as well? These are wonderful stories, and they? The
:44:00. > :44:03.bigger question is about stories and morale at ease, and stories are a
:44:04. > :44:07.really important way to encourage moral development, they do things
:44:08. > :44:11.that other things cannot not, adding warmth and colour and lessons and
:44:12. > :44:16.engaging children. And we are lucky right now to have access to millions
:44:17. > :44:19.of amazing stories, stories with incredible characters, with
:44:20. > :44:25.incredible lessons, which adds deep, in the way I have described,
:44:26. > :44:34.children's stories like Harry Potter... Is Harry Potter better
:44:35. > :44:38.than the Bible? Harry Potter has people cooperating, behaving
:44:39. > :44:42.Waverly. Able combining against evil in the world. And I think stories
:44:43. > :44:48.like that, stories of Philip Pullman, are a really good way of
:44:49. > :44:51.encouraging children to think about moral issues and become better
:44:52. > :44:54.people and to want to be better people because they see those
:44:55. > :45:00.examples in stories. In comparison, the stories in the Bible aren't good
:45:01. > :45:04.enough to be morally instructive. APPLAUSE
:45:05. > :45:11.I think that lots reasons. Which ones are not good enough? What
:45:12. > :45:18.about the stuff about Noah warning people? You said there's a lot of
:45:19. > :45:20.nasty violence and amorality in the Bible like wiping out the entire
:45:21. > :45:29.population of the Earth, because they're not doing what you told them
:45:30. > :45:33.to do. Also a lot of other very superficial stories. I mean, even
:45:34. > :45:38.stories that might be useful as a one-off lesson, like the good
:45:39. > :45:41.Samaritan for example, is a good example of someone reaching out
:45:42. > :45:49.across the cultural boundary to help somebody. But in the stories, it's
:45:50. > :45:54.not something they engaged something immediately like modern fiction they
:45:55. > :46:00.can get into straightaway. They have got the puppets. The fact you need
:46:01. > :46:10.the puppets to make the story useful as an indication of not a good
:46:11. > :46:13.story. It doesn't need explaining. A man was lying beaten, robbed on the
:46:14. > :46:19.floor, and a complete stranger came along and showed him compassion. And
:46:20. > :46:27.you say it superficial? It's wonderful. It's a nice moment, it's
:46:28. > :46:38.a nice moment. We don't need to go any further. My grandfather lived to
:46:39. > :46:45.120 years. He had this Bible story, the missionaries brought the stories
:46:46. > :46:49.of Jesus explaining divinity and humanity, and he was saved, he
:46:50. > :46:58.passed on to my father and my children. Do we get our morals from
:46:59. > :47:04.the Bible? Of course we do. Where did the ancient peoples, 50,000
:47:05. > :47:09.years ago, where did they get their morals from? The Bible talks about
:47:10. > :47:17.human beings. Where did they get their morals? God is an aid in us,
:47:18. > :47:23.goodness. As we leave our lives, and communicate, the moment we make
:47:24. > :47:32.decisions in our lives, we live with the consequences. So it's not from
:47:33. > :47:36.the Bible, it's innate? The Bible traitorous as people, and gives us
:47:37. > :47:41.guidance on how to live our lives and that's fantastic fulsome but
:47:42. > :47:51.millions of people live before the Bible. I'm saying, yes, I'm talking
:47:52. > :47:56.about God, who was before the Bible. The point I would make, innate
:47:57. > :48:02.goodness. I would say we are made in the image of God, and we can choose
:48:03. > :48:07.to follow a la innate goodness or not. I think, I love the stories.
:48:08. > :48:12.You are talking about Harry Potter etc. The stories in the Bible are
:48:13. > :48:15.absolutely brilliant for teaching morality. Think of the prodigal son,
:48:16. > :48:18.he goes off, makes a mess of his life, comes back and the moral of
:48:19. > :48:22.the story is, when you have blown it, say you're sorry, and God is a
:48:23. > :48:28.God of forgiveness, you can start again. But it has to be retold in
:48:29. > :48:36.every single generation. And the problem I would have with keeping it
:48:37. > :48:39.only in this century, is it is so remote fulsome children can't
:48:40. > :48:43.understand it. Stories have to be completely retold, re-dressed,
:48:44. > :48:48.reconfigured for each generation, but the Bible is filled with such
:48:49. > :48:56.incredible truth, but... There's another story here, which occurred
:48:57. > :49:03.to me. What marriage is there in the story of Abraham being on the brink
:49:04. > :49:09.of sacrificing his son because God told him to sacrifice his son? Now,
:49:10. > :49:16.these days, it's a job for social services. What is the point about?
:49:17. > :49:21.What is the merit of that story? Didn't ultimately go through with
:49:22. > :49:27.it. The merit is all about a person 's relationship to God. It's about
:49:28. > :49:30.who do you put first in your life? We would have to really tell that
:49:31. > :49:35.story differently because that would be totally unacceptable now. It has
:49:36. > :49:40.to be retold because no parent these days would ever get that far to
:49:41. > :49:48.plunge a knife to sacrifice their child for the do you think Abraham
:49:49. > :49:58.got that far? It is a story. It's not. It's a historical account. Did
:49:59. > :50:02.that happen? I don't think so. It talks about radical BDM is to God.
:50:03. > :50:09.If you started missing part of the Bible as being just stories... Of
:50:10. > :50:15.course we don't think the Bible literally. It stands as a complete
:50:16. > :50:24.book. Historical? It's not a bug, it's a library. It's fundamentally
:50:25. > :50:36.moral. I think it's extraordinary that Christians seem to think they
:50:37. > :50:42.invented morality. But it is innate. The higher cognitive species,
:50:43. > :50:48.gravity. If you look at the birds feeding is young, you don't think at
:50:49. > :51:00.the expense of the zone life, you don't think that is being moral. If
:51:01. > :51:04.you look at a fish which gives 10,000 eggs, which deaths, it's not
:51:05. > :51:12.a bad thing. Let's get back to the stories in the Bible. What is your
:51:13. > :51:16.favourite? I think the Bible is an interesting document. It's part of
:51:17. > :51:21.the social fabric of Great Britain. I think, in terms of offering moral
:51:22. > :51:31.guidance, I think it's pretty much zero. Not at all. The sermon on the
:51:32. > :51:36.Mount? Do unto others? That is the golden thread that runs through all
:51:37. > :51:45.the great religions of all time. Christians didn't invent gravity.
:51:46. > :51:55.There is a reason why morality has evolved. Partly because human beings
:51:56. > :51:58.take so long to develop in the womb, nine months, so the human
:51:59. > :52:06.brain is the most complex thing known to man. Youngsters take 15
:52:07. > :52:12.years to develop. Parents have to devote a huge amount of their life
:52:13. > :52:15.to their children. That is the crucible in which Varanasi evolves.
:52:16. > :52:23.It is inevitable otherwise they wouldn't survive. Let's hear from
:52:24. > :52:29.the audience. The word story has been mentioned a lot and if you add
:52:30. > :52:34.the word theory before it, that basically is what all those stories
:52:35. > :52:38.are about. -- fairy. Goldilocks and the three Bears, Harry Potter, Lord
:52:39. > :52:42.of rings, I don't read the Bible and I don't think children need the
:52:43. > :52:54.Bible be taught good morals. Parents need to teach their children good
:52:55. > :52:59.morals, not a book. I think the Bible is great, full of some super
:53:00. > :53:04.stuff, a simple line of Scripture, I try to live by it. I think there are
:53:05. > :53:07.dangers women look at other stories by other authors like Harry Potter
:53:08. > :53:11.for the BS, there are some great points about Harry Potter,
:53:12. > :53:17.friendship and standing up, Shakespeare, that an element of
:53:18. > :53:27.people, the occult, dangerous. The dangers of the occult. The Bible is
:53:28. > :53:30.a good reference but it surely isn't the only reference. You should
:53:31. > :53:39.reference many aspects for philosophy, etc. We're not claim
:53:40. > :53:46.exclusivity on gravity. We've never claimed that, but a lot of people
:53:47. > :53:50.are talking about children. -- morality. We have children all over
:53:51. > :53:52.the country coming to have fun, make their friends and learn at the
:53:53. > :53:58.Bible, so I ask this question yesterday, 13 and 14-year-old
:53:59. > :54:04.children, they said real people, real emotions, real lessons. And
:54:05. > :54:08.what they said as the Bible is not old, it's not old-fashioned, it is
:54:09. > :54:13.absolutely relevant for them today. These are young people who are
:54:14. > :54:18.facing the world and the problems of this world, and it's not an easy
:54:19. > :54:22.place to live. The Bible as the advantage over Shakespeare and
:54:23. > :54:31.Dickens and JK Rowling? Because it's true? Absolutely. If one of those
:54:32. > :54:37.pupils asked you about something in Saint Paul's gospel, what does it
:54:38. > :54:43.mean when it says a wife should submit her husband? What does that
:54:44. > :54:48.mean? Explain that to a child. Yes, I believe you can explain the whole
:54:49. > :54:53.of the Bible to a child. I have an 18-month-old daughter and I read her
:54:54. > :54:59.Bible stories as she grows older full I will explain the Bible
:55:00. > :55:03.stories to her. The Bible puts it, and I don't want to get into
:55:04. > :55:07.verbatim doctrine, but the Bible has principles in place and there is a
:55:08. > :55:12.principle of authority from God, through Jesus, to husband, to the
:55:13. > :55:22.wife. That doesn't mean a husband has control over the wife. It is a
:55:23. > :55:29.biblical principle. Hierarchy. You won't be surprised to hear me say
:55:30. > :55:36.that Christians hold a different interpretation of the Scriptures
:55:37. > :55:41.and, looking at the Bible, you can't look at it as a set piece. You have
:55:42. > :55:44.to look at who wrote it, in what context, what was their worldview
:55:45. > :55:51.and interpret it for us now. And that's why we need theologians. This
:55:52. > :55:55.is what is confusing. You like the cuddly bits. He likes it all. I
:55:56. > :56:04.don't just like the cuddly bits for the we have to face Noah and the
:56:05. > :56:09.flood, Abraham and Isaac, Lott 's wife turning into a pillar of salt.
:56:10. > :56:13.The radical things. We have to distinguish what is teaching about
:56:14. > :56:22.proof and reality and humanity fraught time, and what is culturally
:56:23. > :56:25.different. The wheat from the chaff for the discernment and wisdom for
:56:26. > :56:28.that that's why we have brains. This is one of the problems we have with
:56:29. > :56:32.using Bible stories as a way of trying to encourage moral develop
:56:33. > :56:34.went for the they are all the things I said before, they are narrower
:56:35. > :56:41.than other fiction. But it's also the case that some people believe
:56:42. > :56:46.they are actually true and for them, it's a religious matter. And so, the
:56:47. > :56:50.discussion about those stories becomes extremely intense,
:56:51. > :56:53.conflicted, volatile, and it's difficult to use them as fictional
:56:54. > :56:57.examples with which to develop empathy and so on for them at least
:56:58. > :57:04.a Harry Potter, very few people actually believe it's real. And you
:57:05. > :57:10.could use those stories in a proper way. The example you said about the
:57:11. > :57:15.wives submitting to their husbands... We don't have time for
:57:16. > :57:19.that. It's very important about family thought of the same chapter
:57:20. > :57:29.says a husband must not be harsh to their wives. And it doesn't say or
:57:30. > :57:33.husband controls you. In any environment, there is leadership for
:57:34. > :57:38.the shared leadership, either for one another, love one another. You
:57:39. > :57:43.get the children are held context so they take it. That is
:57:44. > :57:50.interpretation. Yes, it's interpretation. It has to be
:57:51. > :58:01.interpreted. It's not interpretation for Luke. God wrote it. No no no no
:58:02. > :58:08.no. Not at all for top human beings about it. Wonderful human beings
:58:09. > :58:18.wrote it. Inspired by God's holy spirit. It's up to us to interpret
:58:19. > :58:21.it. We believe them to it. Mayhem. Thank you all very much for taking
:58:22. > :58:24.part this morning. As always, the debates will continue online and on
:58:25. > :58:28.Twitter. Next week we're in Cardiff, so join us then. But for now it's
:58:29. > :58:29.goodbye and have a great Sunday. Thank you for watching The Big
:58:30. > :58:33.Questions.