:00:00. > :00:13.Are we all in it together? Convincing climate sceptics.
:00:14. > :00:24.Religious voices in Parliament. Today we're live from
:00:25. > :00:30.Patcham High School in Brighton. Welcome, everybody,
:00:31. > :00:39.to The Big Questions. In this week's Budget the Chancellor
:00:40. > :00:43.reduced help to the disabled through personal independence
:00:44. > :00:45.payments by ?3.2 billion across this 370,000 disabled people will lose
:00:46. > :00:53.an average of ?3,500 each. His announcement ruffled a lot
:00:54. > :00:56.of feathers in both Houses of Parliament and in all
:00:57. > :01:00.the political parties, including losing the Conservative
:01:01. > :01:02.Secretary of State for Work It doesn't matter that
:01:03. > :01:07.the Chancellor was right when he said we will actually see
:01:08. > :01:11.spending on personal independence payments for the disabled rise
:01:12. > :01:15.by a billion pounds by 2020/2021. The rise is not as big
:01:16. > :01:18.as he originally promised, and as a result some of the least
:01:19. > :01:22.able members of society will get less help in the future
:01:23. > :01:24.than they had originally been Iain Duncan Smith, in his
:01:25. > :01:31.resignation letter, said they should be finding the best way to better
:01:32. > :01:33.focus resources Here is our question this morning
:01:34. > :01:43.for our first debate. Should a society be judged
:01:44. > :01:46.by the way it treats the balance is about
:01:47. > :15:52.its less fortunate? I'm very worried about the future,
:15:53. > :15:58.in terms of the level of cuts in the last budget. He said even more needs
:15:59. > :16:06.to go. We are talking about a total transformation of our society. One
:16:07. > :16:11.of the things I find absolutely infuriating, I have a very elderly,
:16:12. > :16:16.frail husband, and we have a blue badge because he cannot walk.
:16:17. > :16:24.Looking at society, the whole thing is we don't really care about the
:16:25. > :16:25.disabled because you go for a disabled parking place and somebody
:16:26. > :16:29.without a blue badge is there. disabled parking place and somebody
:16:30. > :16:34.speak to them and they say, I'm only going to be a minute. This is an
:16:35. > :16:39.attitude of society about disabled people. It infuriates me because
:16:40. > :16:45.people simply don't care. Do you think there are some people playing
:16:46. > :16:50.the system? Definitely. We have a carer who looks after my husband,
:16:51. > :16:57.she said to me, I know of a person who's got a mobility car and both
:16:58. > :17:02.she and her husband work and they've had all sorts of things and she was
:17:03. > :17:08.absolutely furious at the way that they are playing the system. Do you
:17:09. > :17:12.think that's a big problem? I don't know. Some people do but other
:17:13. > :17:19.people deservedly need those benefits. How do we target the
:17:20. > :17:22.people that need the money? These debates always go down the line and
:17:23. > :17:24.they play into the way that the government wants to frame the
:17:25. > :17:31.debate, the deserving and the undeserving. Actually, we need to
:17:32. > :17:36.move beyond this. One of the proposals the Green party has is a
:17:37. > :17:42.basic income. Everybody pretty much gets a basic income. The tax system
:17:43. > :17:46.and the benefits system is extremely complicated. We could save a lot of
:17:47. > :17:51.money by simplifying it across the board. Giving people Top Of The Pops
:17:52. > :17:58.and getting past -- giving people the top up that they are entitled to
:17:59. > :18:02.rather than defrauding the system. On balance we are a much better
:18:03. > :18:09.society. People are not trying to get what they can. Why is that myth
:18:10. > :18:13.propagated? It is ideological ego driven. It was done so by Iain
:18:14. > :18:18.Duncan Smith and this government, who want to get people to think
:18:19. > :18:23.about the deserving and the undeserving so they can push through
:18:24. > :18:31.their ideology. This lady was not discussing a mythological thing, she
:18:32. > :18:36.said her husband's carer said this was a think she had seen and it
:18:37. > :18:41.upset her. The lady did not say it is a huge thing, she said it was a
:18:42. > :18:47.thing but it is a real thing. Why dismiss it? It is the lack of
:18:48. > :18:55.perspective. Benefit fraud does exist. It is 0.7% of anything
:18:56. > :19:02.spending. I wish we spent as much time talking about the people at the
:19:03. > :19:08.top who avoid tax. You run a small business. Do you think reducing
:19:09. > :19:13.capital gains tax and corporation tax is a good thing? I agree with
:19:14. > :19:19.your statement about entrepreneurs. Most of them don't pay themselves as
:19:20. > :19:25.salary. In terms of vulnerable people, the definition of who is
:19:26. > :19:29.vulnerable has changed and entrepreneurs are of honourable.
:19:30. > :19:34.Some of them cannot pay their own salaries. They are constantly
:19:35. > :19:39.looking at different ways they can get some sort of cash break to help
:19:40. > :19:47.them grow and sustain their businesses. Do you feel people who
:19:48. > :19:51.want to grow their businesses are in danger of getting demonised? Not
:19:52. > :20:03.when you're at the bottom and you don't even have a salary, you don't
:20:04. > :20:11.think that deeply. I was fascinated with what Jonathan said, the father
:20:12. > :20:15.of negative income tax was Milton Friedman, who proposed that for the
:20:16. > :20:20.Nixon administration, it was not taken up and the Democrats argued it
:20:21. > :20:27.was very important that payment from the state be related to work, so
:20:28. > :20:36.they put in place the tax credit. The fact is it works, and it is a
:20:37. > :20:41.pity that the attempts at cutting tax credits in this country was not
:20:42. > :20:49.a reform to make it an earned income tax credit. You are defining work
:20:50. > :20:52.very narrowly as paid employment. A lot of people contribute to the
:20:53. > :20:56.community and society but don't receive an income and if you want to
:20:57. > :21:00.go into something about public service you need to take a very low
:21:01. > :21:03.salary in the voluntary sector or whatever. If you go into business
:21:04. > :21:16.you get a very high salaries if you are successful. That is valued more.
:21:17. > :21:22.I'm going to give you the last word. There is more from Jonathan shortly.
:21:23. > :21:26.We are not addressing the question, society should be judged by how it
:21:27. > :21:37.treats the most vulnerable people, they are are minority, they cannot
:21:38. > :21:43.get out there, they don't have a voice, we need to take
:21:44. > :21:46.responsibility for making the most vulnerable get support, that we
:21:47. > :21:53.agree as a society, regardless of the political agenda, that it is
:21:54. > :21:57.something we all commit to, it is a social contract that says this is
:21:58. > :22:03.our responsibility. I hate to bring religion into this, but go back to
:22:04. > :22:10.the words of the prophet, the orphan, the widow, why are those
:22:11. > :22:13.people repeated? They are the people who are dependent on all of us
:22:14. > :22:15.acknowledging that we have a responsibility towards them. Thank
:22:16. > :22:24.you. If you have something
:22:25. > :22:29.to say about that debate, log on
:22:30. > :22:30.to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions, where you'll find links to join
:22:31. > :22:32.in the discussion online. We're also debating live this
:22:33. > :22:35.morning from Brighton: Has the time come to take
:22:36. > :22:37.climate change seriously? And should more religions
:22:38. > :22:39.have a say in Parliament? So get tweeting or emailing on those
:22:40. > :22:43.topics now or send us any other ideas or thoughts you may
:22:44. > :22:50.have about the show. It's been a particularly beautiful
:22:51. > :22:53.spring this year with snowdrops, crocuses and then daffodils blooming
:22:54. > :23:00.months early across the country. Nasa, the American space agency,
:23:01. > :23:02.recorded a dramatic surge in the surface temperature
:23:03. > :23:04.of Earth in February, creating the biggest
:23:05. > :23:06.month-on-month rise in global And the amount of sea ice
:23:07. > :23:16.in the Arctic has also reached Some of this, scientists agree,
:23:17. > :23:20.is down to the El Nino event currently coming to an end
:23:21. > :23:22.in the Pacific Ocean. The majority of scientists say
:23:23. > :23:26.the global climate system has been strongly influenced by us,
:23:27. > :23:29.through human emissions of greenhouse gases,
:23:30. > :23:32.especially from rising concentrations of carbon dioxide
:23:33. > :23:34.from our use of fossil fuels. Has the time come to take
:23:35. > :23:53.climate change seriously? Many people say we are facing a
:23:54. > :24:01.disaster of biblical proportions. Hottest February since records
:24:02. > :24:08.began. As the message got through? It must be so frustrating for you
:24:09. > :24:13.knowing how bad things are and there are still people resisting this
:24:14. > :24:21.message for whatever reason. Cheer us up. How bad are things? The data
:24:22. > :24:24.is really alarming and we should be aligned and that comes on the back
:24:25. > :24:31.of all sorts of observable changes to the planet, we can see the Amazon
:24:32. > :24:36.rainforest is getting drier, you mentioned the Arctic ice, we are
:24:37. > :24:39.seeing permafrost in the tundra in the northern parts of the planet
:24:40. > :24:46.melting which is releasing methane which is a kind of super climate
:24:47. > :24:55.change gas. What can we do? The planet is changing, it is having an
:24:56. > :24:58.impact on people around the world, their livelihoods are being
:24:59. > :25:05.destroyed by extreme weather events, tornadoes, droughts, flooding.
:25:06. > :25:08.Extinction... Yes, even in this country we've seen a big increase in
:25:09. > :25:15.flooding incidents and people who are flooded out of their homes lose
:25:16. > :25:18.their jobs and are not able to go back, for years. This is a really
:25:19. > :25:22.serious problem having a big impact on people now. I would say that the
:25:23. > :25:26.world are starting to take climate change seriously, just in December
:25:27. > :25:30.last year, nearly all of the world leaders got together for a big time
:25:31. > :25:38.at conference and said, climate change is happening, we need to take
:25:39. > :25:41.much more action. It is not too late? They said they will try to
:25:42. > :25:48.keep global temperature rises to 1.5 degrees. The really big challenge is
:25:49. > :25:53.whether the world will act together to keep these temperatures within
:25:54. > :25:58.safe limits and will this country do its fair share? Friends of the Earth
:25:59. > :26:05.is concerned that the government is not doing what it needs to do. We
:26:06. > :26:08.are nearly there but we need to work in concert, morally we need to do
:26:09. > :26:15.it, it is for our own interest, for our children and grandchildren.
:26:16. > :26:22.Things are very bad and to transition our economy into green
:26:23. > :26:23.jobs, to move into renewable energy, you've got to decide what you're
:26:24. > :26:33.going you've got to decide what you're
:26:34. > :26:40.morally, ethically, and we had a burgeoning renewable energy
:26:41. > :26:43.morally, ethically, and we had a businesses going out of business,
:26:44. > :26:50.the collapse of what could have been a world leading market. We could be
:26:51. > :26:58.creating a sustainable, strong economy transitioning to resistant
:26:59. > :27:02.local economies, so we could... How do we get rid of fossil fuels?
:27:03. > :27:09.Create alternatives, get rid of the need for them. There are a wide
:27:10. > :27:14.plethora of alternatives, it is not about one or the other, wind
:27:15. > :27:17.turbines, waved, solar, the technology is increasing all the
:27:18. > :27:30.time and if you invest then we will become a world leader. Why are we
:27:31. > :27:36.not doing it? APPLAUSE. At hand goes up of dissent. You are
:27:37. > :27:51.at climate change sceptic. You are with Donald Trump. The vast majority
:27:52. > :27:55.of scientists... That is not true. The actual percentage of scientists
:27:56. > :28:00.that believe man is having a decisive influence is 7% tops and if
:28:01. > :28:08.you go on our website you can see the link to peer review papers that
:28:09. > :28:13.show that and the BBC constantly put out propaganda. Do not shout
:28:14. > :28:17.rubbish, look at the actual facts. Everything happening in the world
:28:18. > :28:26.has happened before. Climate change is natural, there is no evidence
:28:27. > :28:32.that CO2 is driving climate change, what the data shows is world
:28:33. > :28:40.temperatures control CO2 levels. What? We have a lot of events
:28:41. > :28:44.happening due to a very wild jet stream which we predicted from solar
:28:45. > :28:48.activity years ago and if you want to do anything about natural climate
:28:49. > :28:53.change what we should be doing is having more defence against extreme
:28:54. > :28:58.events but we should not be wasting money reducing the amount of CO2
:28:59. > :29:10.because it is driving nothing. It is good for plants and the more, the
:29:11. > :29:15.better. That is nonsense. Go on our website and many other websites and
:29:16. > :29:19.stop listening to oil companies who back it in order to justify
:29:20. > :29:32.increases in oil price. That is a fact. There are voices like Piers
:29:33. > :29:38.Corbyn. You are coming up against a wave of dissent. It is important
:29:39. > :29:46.there is a balance that reflect the real scientific evidence. There are
:29:47. > :29:51.voices like Piers and he is a very small minority... You go on our
:29:52. > :29:59.website and read the facts, facts is what counts in science. 7% of
:30:00. > :30:11.scientists? I read it was 98%. That was untrue. And also irrelevant.
:30:12. > :30:17.Let's check out the evidence with Jonathan and Liz. The panel on
:30:18. > :30:25.climate change, the world scientist... They are not! They are
:30:26. > :30:28.not scientists. You are not helping the cause by giving a platform to
:30:29. > :30:36.such ridiculous views. That is rubbish. I think we should be very
:30:37. > :30:39.clear about this. This is nonsense. It comes up time and again. In the
:30:40. > :30:52.interest of balance, the BBC has him on. I've challenged him to a public
:30:53. > :30:57.debate on the science. The thing is, it is important to address this and
:30:58. > :31:02.debate against these views and show the public. 56% of Tory MPs
:31:03. > :31:06.according to an opinion poll have sympathy for this view. The general
:31:07. > :31:10.public, in your terms, if I can say this, do not realise the severity of
:31:11. > :31:17.the situation. There are opinions like this but it is up to you and
:31:18. > :31:20.incumbent upon you, people like you, Jonathan, to come and discuss it and
:31:21. > :31:25.we hear the other side and you slam dunk them and it is important that
:31:26. > :31:30.you do that. I am throwing you the basketball. In a programme like
:31:31. > :31:35.this, we can throw statistics back and forward and he will tell me to
:31:36. > :31:40.go to this or that website. The fact is that 99% of scientists are in one
:31:41. > :31:44.camp. Piers, please listen to Jonathan. He is now going to dispute
:31:45. > :31:48.that and we will not sort that out in this context. We have had this
:31:49. > :31:53.debate. It happened ten or 15 years ago. It is so over! Let's talk about
:31:54. > :31:57.what we have got to do. If you have a meteor that will hit the earth in
:31:58. > :32:01.20 years' time you know it will collide and cause devastation and
:32:02. > :32:05.you pull out all the stops to address that situation. We have a
:32:06. > :32:09.metaphorical meteor heading for earth right now and we need to take
:32:10. > :32:15.steps right now so that my kid grows up in a world that they are not
:32:16. > :32:17.devastated by. If you think the migration crisis is now, it is
:32:18. > :32:22.nothing compared to the climate refugees that will be swarming. You
:32:23. > :32:31.are thicker and he once worked in advertising. What a journey. -- you
:32:32. > :32:36.are a vicar. How should this message be sold so that people realise the
:32:37. > :32:43.implications? I firmly agree with peers. We need to look at the facts.
:32:44. > :32:48.The facts. The facts are that since the Second World War, over 50 or 60
:32:49. > :32:53.years, we have seen a massive decline in numbers of species living
:32:54. > :33:03.on this planet. We face an oncoming tidal wave of the sixth mass
:33:04. > :33:06.extinction event on this planet. Our relationship as human beings with
:33:07. > :33:11.the natural world is an absolute crisis. We say that we have the
:33:12. > :33:17.climate crisis, and extinction crisis. The crisis is within us.
:33:18. > :33:26.That is where we need to begin to look. The debate around climate is
:33:27. > :33:32.one of the issues that we are facing but it is emblematic of the crisis
:33:33. > :33:35.of conscience, a crisis of identity for each human being on the planet
:33:36. > :33:43.in terms of our relationship with the natural world. We need to dream.
:33:44. > :33:48.We need to take back the future for our children and our grandchildren.
:33:49. > :33:53.This is something that I do not hear the politicians, our elected
:33:54. > :33:57.politicians, speaking about. This is desperately important. Now we stand
:33:58. > :34:05.at a crossroads and we need to address this urgently. With
:34:06. > :34:09.deforestation, the extinction of species, it is a pretty grim picture
:34:10. > :34:14.at the moment. That is nothing to do with CO2. It must be done anyway.
:34:15. > :34:18.Edward Snowden the other week was saying that the whole concept of
:34:19. > :34:23.climate change was invented, never mind CO2, by the CIA. He was saying
:34:24. > :34:30.that but think it might have a spoof. Just checking. Let's look at
:34:31. > :34:35.the facts. Arctic sea ice is at an all-time low. The biggest month and
:34:36. > :34:40.month temperature change since records began. The phrase was we are
:34:41. > :34:44.all in this together. We are all in this together so what are we going
:34:45. > :34:49.to do about it? What we have just heard is very interesting because it
:34:50. > :34:52.shows the religious origins of the belief in global warming as
:34:53. > :35:00.catastrophic. As a potential catastrophe. Bear in mind, even
:35:01. > :35:06.despite the spike in sea temperature, the climate models are
:35:07. > :35:11.overrunning the observed records. The idea that we are on course to
:35:12. > :35:19.some kind of Armageddon catastrophe is religious in origin. If I may
:35:20. > :35:24.add, I think where the ethical dimension in this debate is
:35:25. > :35:29.incredibly important is for people to be honest about the policy
:35:30. > :35:33.consequences of what they advocate. If we advocate green power and
:35:34. > :35:35.renewables, the consequences are higher electricity bills. Higher
:35:36. > :35:47.electricity bills that harmed the worse off, and elderly people, whose
:35:48. > :35:52.bills and income, one of the top things they spend on the household
:35:53. > :35:55.budgets is electricity bills. You say it is religious in origin. You
:35:56. > :36:11.are arguing with a scientific consensus. Guys! I will see you
:36:12. > :36:14.later on, OK? Owen Jones! I look forward to the balanced discussion
:36:15. > :36:20.next week about whether we have a flat earth! Seriously, this is an
:36:21. > :36:26.opportunity... Now you come to mention it... I wouldn't put it past
:36:27. > :36:30.you! Climate change seems abstract and technical to people but you can
:36:31. > :36:33.make it about everyday issues. In Germany they have seized the
:36:34. > :36:38.opportunity and created hundreds of thousands of renewable energy jobs,
:36:39. > :36:41.giving skilled, decent jobs and apprenticeships back to young
:36:42. > :36:45.people. We have a crisis of skilled jobs in this country so let's use
:36:46. > :36:48.the climate change threat, instead of doing what this Government is
:36:49. > :36:56.doing which is attacking and undermining the burgeoning
:36:57. > :36:58.organisation that can deal with it. Let's insulate all of the homes and
:36:59. > :37:04.that will help our economy as well. Let's insulate all of the homes and
:37:05. > :37:06.It is like the flat earth, Let's insulate all of the homes and
:37:07. > :37:13.over, but you have got a Let's insulate all of the homes and
:37:14. > :37:16.problem here, to convince people. Like in
:37:17. > :37:17.problem here, to convince people. there are those people that will not
:37:18. > :37:19.look at the there are those people that will not
:37:20. > :37:24.them for whatever there are those people that will not
:37:25. > :37:24.you do about it? I think we need to ignore
:37:25. > :37:28.you do about it? I think we need to voice basically and focus on what
:37:29. > :37:33.the majority of people are interested in. Everybody in general
:37:34. > :37:41.wants to do their bit to protect the planet. They want to see a planet
:37:42. > :37:44.that is going to be thriving and there for our children and
:37:45. > :37:50.grandchildren to live on. A lot of this good stuff is even happening.
:37:51. > :37:54.In China even. They have reduced their net carbon emissions by 1.5%
:37:55. > :38:00.last year. They have got to the point that we have not got to. Their
:38:01. > :38:03.approach to the natural world is another question. They have stopped
:38:04. > :38:07.building coal-fired power stations and they are closing them down. They
:38:08. > :38:12.are the biggest investor in renewable energy in the world. We
:38:13. > :38:14.are seeing it in this country. There are so many things that we need to
:38:15. > :38:20.do to tackle climate good for us and our society anyway.
:38:21. > :38:24.In London we are getting to the point where there are as many people
:38:25. > :38:26.cycling as driving cars in central London. That is really good for our
:38:27. > :38:31.health and for ending London. That is really good for our
:38:32. > :38:39.What is it that people are afraid of? That accidentally we might save
:38:40. > :38:40.the planet? I have always wanted to say this. Citizens are planet earth,
:38:41. > :38:45.let's hear from you. Hands up. say this. Citizens are planet earth,
:38:46. > :38:53.guy in the white shirt. Good morning. I want to comment on that.
:38:54. > :38:58.What is the accidental side-effect? Are we accidentally going to stop
:38:59. > :39:06.lung diseases from car emissions? Are we accidentally going to stop
:39:07. > :39:10.rainforests becoming extinct by stopping deforestation? This is not
:39:11. > :39:14.an issue of a terrible thing, a 50-50 does. Rupert says it will cost
:39:15. > :39:21.a lot of people money with electricity bills going up. That is
:39:22. > :39:26.a whole matter for the economy. And for people. So people don't mind
:39:27. > :39:32.paying higher electricity bills? It would save millions. 10,000 people
:39:33. > :39:37.in London every year die from illnesses related to air pollution.
:39:38. > :39:45.Think of the NHS saving. At the back. Good morning. For me it is a
:39:46. > :39:53.case of... Well, we are currently in a situation where we are in a carbon
:39:54. > :39:57.dependent economy, but that means we are dependent on oil from some of
:39:58. > :40:00.the worst regimes in the world. Even if you don't get about the planet
:40:01. > :40:07.and you can't think 50 years down the road, why is it such a bad thing
:40:08. > :40:12.that we should be able to produce all of our own energy? Our economy
:40:13. > :40:16.could be dependent on energy in Britain. And free ourselves from the
:40:17. > :40:23.shackles of very questionable regimes? Yes. One more, Richard. It
:40:24. > :40:30.is always interesting to hear what Richard D North says about stuff and
:40:31. > :40:33.we will hear it in a second. Hello. Yes, we need to question more why we
:40:34. > :40:46.are not taking climate change seriously enough. And I think the
:40:47. > :40:53.reason is we don't question enough the fundamentally problematic nature
:40:54. > :40:58.of our capitalist system. And it is absurd obsession with economic
:40:59. > :41:03.growth and money. There is profit in renewables if done right. A lot of
:41:04. > :41:08.big companies have moved into the renewable business. Where there is a
:41:09. > :41:15.way there is a dollar. I understand. In the time that we have got left,
:41:16. > :41:19.our grandchildren, our children, 30 years' time, you may well be dead
:41:20. > :41:27.and I may well be dead. I hope not you. Our children will say shame on
:41:28. > :41:33.us, won't they? We haven't done too badly. Our emissions per head of
:41:34. > :41:41.carbon are about where Denmark's are in Denmark is famously virtuous and
:41:42. > :41:46.it is a fraction of America's. Our contribution of this country is to
:41:47. > :41:58.say we can only be 2% of the solution to the problem. -- our
:41:59. > :42:04.contribution as a country is 2%. And we should. I imagine we will
:42:05. > :42:09.decouple from deforestation. But we shouldn't beat ourselves up for
:42:10. > :42:15.being terrible. Whatever we do will probably crash through to some quite
:42:16. > :42:21.high temperatures that might be quite dangerous. Bless you, I have a
:42:22. > :42:27.lot of time for your point of view. The world is cooling. The jet stream
:42:28. > :42:34.has moved South. Just as the debate is hotting up, I have got to leave
:42:35. > :42:40.it. For the sake of sanity, and it has got to be a 30 second thought, I
:42:41. > :42:45.am going to give you the last word. There goes the BBC again. We should
:42:46. > :42:49.tackle climate change because it is the right thing to do but also
:42:50. > :42:53.because the things that we can do to tackle climate change will make the
:42:54. > :42:54.world a better place and will be better for people living on the
:42:55. > :43:01.planet. Thank you very much indeed. You can join in all this
:43:02. > :43:03.morning's debates by logging on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions
:43:04. > :43:05.then following the link Or you can tweet using
:43:06. > :43:12.the hashtag bbctbq. Tell us what you think
:43:13. > :43:14.about our last big question too. Should more religions
:43:15. > :43:16.have a say in Parliament? And if you'd like to be
:43:17. > :43:19.in the audience at a future show, so we're not on air but we'll be
:43:20. > :43:32.back from York on April 3rd. We'll be recruiting audiences
:43:33. > :43:34.for two editions that day, the usual
:43:35. > :43:36.live show in the morning and then commemorating the 400th anniversary
:43:37. > :43:39.of Shakespeare's death asking does Shakespeare offer a better
:43:40. > :43:49.moral guide than the Bible? After that we're in Bath
:43:50. > :43:55.on April 17th for our usual Today is Palm Sunday,
:43:56. > :44:00.when Jesus returned to Jerusalem in triumph, riding on a donkey,
:44:01. > :44:06.with his path strewn with palm leaves by crowds shouting "Hosanna,
:44:07. > :44:09.and blessed is the King of Israel". It led to his arrest
:44:10. > :44:11.for sedition against Rome It was the first clash
:44:12. > :44:15.between the early Christian Church Today 26 bishops, but only
:44:16. > :44:20.from the Church of England, sit Yet only around a million
:44:21. > :44:25.of its citizens will sit on a Church Should more religions
:44:26. > :44:36.have a say in Parliament? Alison Ruoff, formerly of the
:44:37. > :44:41.General Synod of the Church of England, how lovely to have you on
:44:42. > :44:44.the programme again. You believe all ethical questions ultimately go back
:44:45. > :44:51.to God. How do we know what he thinks and how do we asking? Because
:44:52. > :44:55.we have got's word, the Bible. I passionately believe that is best
:44:56. > :44:58.for every single one of us, including climate change and all
:44:59. > :45:02.these things. We have mucked things up because that is how we are by
:45:03. > :45:11.nature. But God wants what is best for us.
:45:12. > :45:17.So basically, not necessarily the Bible, we should have as many
:45:18. > :45:25.religious people from as many different faiths and liberal
:45:26. > :45:33.traditions, progressive traditions all in it together fighting the
:45:34. > :45:37.corner of God? Now. Shall I go home now? I want this country, it is
:45:38. > :45:45.established with the Church of England, and has been for centuries.
:45:46. > :45:53.I want to retain our Christian identity and I want to make sure we
:45:54. > :46:00.are a Christian people, more than 50% say this is a Christian country
:46:01. > :46:03.and if we look back at our Christian heritage and all it has meant for us
:46:04. > :46:10.with freedom and justice then we need to hang onto that. We must be
:46:11. > :46:19.open to people of different faiths but I passionately believe the Bible
:46:20. > :46:33.is God's authoritative work and we have 26 bishops in the House of
:46:34. > :46:39.Lords. We are discussing religious voices in Parliament and we launched
:46:40. > :46:45.into a theological debate. I was answering the question I was asked.
:46:46. > :46:51.You were not. The theological claims, whether they are true, is
:46:52. > :46:57.something everybody is free to have a position on but it is irrelevant
:46:58. > :47:04.in how we represent people. If the Bible is true, there is no logical
:47:05. > :47:11.link between that and having 26 clerics in the House of Lords. I
:47:12. > :47:21.think there are two important point to make. Religious individuals are
:47:22. > :47:24.represented in parliament. Religious groups are represented. We've got
:47:25. > :47:30.representatives from charities, trade unions, special interest
:47:31. > :47:33.groups who are free to campaign for different issues and
:47:34. > :47:39.groups who are free to campaign for across. We don't need to
:47:40. > :47:50.groups who are free to campaign for multipolar theocracies.
:47:51. > :48:00.The point was made, the Labour Party owes more to Methodism than Marxism.
:48:01. > :48:04.They used to say the Conservative Party was the Church of England that
:48:05. > :48:12.prey. Do you want more religious voices? I have a problem with the
:48:13. > :48:14.word, religious voices. I'm involved with religion but I have a totally
:48:15. > :48:19.different view, I don't think with religion but I have a totally
:48:20. > :48:25.Bible is the word of God, it is human beings trying to work out what
:48:26. > :48:33.God wants of us, what we need is a Parliament that reflect the whole
:48:34. > :48:34.society, everybody representative, this is particularly important when
:48:35. > :48:47.we talk this is particularly important when
:48:48. > :48:57.make sure that reflect the diversity of society. When you refer to it as
:48:58. > :49:02.a Christian country of society. When you refer to it as
:49:03. > :49:13.treated as if it is a Christian country, I cannot go and buy a
:49:14. > :49:15.treated as if it is a Christian People know virtually nothing about
:49:16. > :49:23.Jews even though we have been here since the 16 50s. We need to have an
:49:24. > :49:29.open day since the 16 50s. We need to have an
:49:30. > :49:34.through and see what we do. Is there a problem if more orthodox religious
:49:35. > :49:39.people have a say, we would not have some of the great progressive
:49:40. > :49:42.people have a say, we would not have reforms we have? Equal marriage,
:49:43. > :49:45.writes for transgender people. reforms we have? Equal marriage,
:49:46. > :50:02.seems to be progress, aren't religions socially
:50:03. > :50:09.conservative and would they put constraints on progress? I disagree
:50:10. > :50:13.with portraying religion is naturally regressive and trying to
:50:14. > :50:19.with portraying religion is impose values and morals on
:50:20. > :50:22.everybody else. The debate in politics at the moment, the Church
:50:23. > :50:25.of England have a very big politics at the moment, the Church
:50:26. > :50:26.that. Everybody should be have their voices. I'm glad we've
:50:27. > :50:33.got the Church of England bishops have their voices. I'm glad we've
:50:34. > :50:37.with people who are basically there because they gave a lot of money to
:50:38. > :50:46.a political party or got kicked out by voters. The bishops, we can rely
:50:47. > :50:51.on to bring an ethical and moral perspective.
:50:52. > :50:54.on to bring an ethical and moral in favour of adding representatives
:50:55. > :50:57.from all other faiths and communities because I
:50:58. > :51:00.from all other faiths and be an exercise in tokenism, the
:51:01. > :51:03.government likes people who say yes and they would have them
:51:04. > :51:09.hand-picked. What do and they would have them
:51:10. > :51:15.to do? Remove the barriers to everyone having their voice heard in
:51:16. > :51:20.government as equal citizens in our democracy. The most obvious barrier
:51:21. > :51:25.is if you rich it is a lot easier to get your voice heard by government
:51:26. > :51:34.than if you cannot afford to make a donation. There were other barriers.
:51:35. > :51:40.Everyone's voices? One barrier for the Muslim community is it seems any
:51:41. > :51:43.Muslim who becomes prominent automatically get attacked and
:51:44. > :51:51.smeared as some kind of secret terrorist sympathiser. I'm not a
:51:52. > :51:55.great fan of Sadiq Khan's political policies but the way that he is
:51:56. > :51:59.being smeared and attacked in the media by some of his political
:52:00. > :52:09.opponents as being a secret Islamic extremist is ridiculous. I think
:52:10. > :52:13.there's a conversation about how demographically representative
:52:14. > :52:18.parliament is and we should see what we do to make it more
:52:19. > :52:28.representative, we don't proportion people in Parliament. Piers has got
:52:29. > :52:33.a special interest as we heard earlier on... And is free to make
:52:34. > :52:36.his point. We've got this idea that the Church of England brings a
:52:37. > :52:44.special moral guy mentioned to Parliament. May bring a Christian
:52:45. > :52:54.perspective. You are free to think that is giving you a special magical
:52:55. > :53:00.moral insight and people are free to agree or disagree whether these
:53:01. > :53:03.clerics have some special moral insight but we treat very
:53:04. > :53:07.sceptically the claim that there is a class of people with a special
:53:08. > :53:14.moral insight that is denied to the rest of us and we do not use it as a
:53:15. > :53:19.basis for privilege in Parliament. Alison, do you want the liberal wing
:53:20. > :53:30.of the Church of England to have more of a say? I don't. This is a
:53:31. > :53:39.key point. Why is it a key point? If it's a Christian country, and we are
:53:40. > :53:44.established, until we have disestablishment... That is your
:53:45. > :53:49.opinion. We are an established church which goes with the state and
:53:50. > :53:58.we are a Christian country and I want to see churches standing up for
:53:59. > :54:02.the Bible, standing up for Jesus Christ, I also want to see the
:54:03. > :54:10.bishops doing their stuff in the House of Lords. Half of them are
:54:11. > :54:15.mealy-mouthed, feeble, cowardly. They don't stand up for the Gospel
:54:16. > :54:24.and that is what I want to see. I'm going to go to Owen Jones. Peter
:54:25. > :54:28.Owen Jones in a minute. My middle name is Peter, it's very confusing.
:54:29. > :54:33.We are a representative democracy, not a theocracy. Parliament should
:54:34. > :54:38.be representative of the people it exists to serve and people should
:54:39. > :54:43.decide accordingly. We should abolish the House of Lords, nobody
:54:44. > :54:48.elected it. The point you are making, officially this is a
:54:49. > :54:53.Christian country but that is anachronistic, this is a diverse
:54:54. > :54:59.nation of Jews, Muslims, Sikhs, non-believers. The point you're
:55:00. > :55:03.making, this is why you are being disingenuous. Some people consider
:55:04. > :55:08.themselves very religious who are extremely right-wing, will talk
:55:09. > :55:18.about games but won't talk about people in poverty. -- will talk
:55:19. > :55:22.about homosexuals. You have nothing to do with my ancestors, there were
:55:23. > :55:27.Christians who were right wing and left wing, there is no one single
:55:28. > :55:34.Christian voice and it is disingenuous of you to present that.
:55:35. > :55:43.That is the argument, it transcends politics. I said I would go to the
:55:44. > :55:48.revs Owen Peter Jones -- Peter Owen Jones. I've never heard someone
:55:49. > :55:54.described the house of Bishops in such eloquent terms. I've been a
:55:55. > :56:02.member of General Synod for 20 years. The trouble is our bishops
:56:03. > :56:05.are appointed by the Crown and government, not to speak out, to
:56:06. > :56:12.conform. They are appointed not to cause trouble. Absolute rubbish,
:56:13. > :56:17.they are leaders in the Christian church and they need to do their
:56:18. > :56:23.job. How can they do their job if they are not appointed to speak out?
:56:24. > :56:28.That is rubbish, they are there to set an example and speak out for the
:56:29. > :56:33.Christian religion. Your version of the Christian religion is not the
:56:34. > :56:37.only version. Many different people have many different interpretations.
:56:38. > :56:44.Some people see no prejudice in the Bible against same-sex marriage,
:56:45. > :56:47.they think it would be fine with Jesus, others see lots of reasons to
:56:48. > :56:59.say it is wrong. You don't have a monopoly on truth. The Bible does.
:57:00. > :57:06.Even if you decided the House of Lords should have 26 religious
:57:07. > :57:11.representatives, it would be a bit batty if it was Church of England.
:57:12. > :57:23.You would let the Catholics, the Jews, the Muslims in. As I Church of
:57:24. > :57:29.England clergyman, has the time not come for us to vote to choose the
:57:30. > :57:43.people that lead us rather than having them appointed. Maybe we want
:57:44. > :57:49.a written constitution. We've not got a lot of time left. The church
:57:50. > :57:53.has changed its view on slavery, Sabbath, war and women. It has
:57:54. > :58:00.changed its position even though it is based on the Bible. There are
:58:01. > :58:04.those who set their separate from that block of 26 so there is
:58:05. > :58:10.religious representation but it is on merit. The third crucial point is
:58:11. > :58:18.the Church of England acts as its own interest group. In the budget it
:58:19. > :58:21.got ?20 million whilst the disabled got benefits cut, for cathedrals. If
:58:22. > :58:32.the Church of England had guts they would reject the ?20 million. We are
:58:33. > :58:38.out of time. Thank you very much. As always, the debate continues online
:58:39. > :58:44.and on Twitter and on here. We are back on April 23. Do join us.
:58:45. > :58:53.Goodbye. See you soon.