:00:00. > :00:00.Raising the minimum wage, combatting radicalisation
:00:07. > :00:34.Today we're live from Manor Church of England Academy in York.
:00:35. > :00:40.Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.
:00:41. > :00:45.On Friday the minimum wage went up by 50 pence to ?7.20 an hour,
:00:46. > :00:51.but only for workers aged 25 or over.
:00:52. > :00:53.Dubbed the National Living Wage by Chancellor George Osborne,
:00:54. > :00:56.it hasn't convinced the former chairman of the Living Wage
:00:57. > :00:59.Commission, John Sentamu ? the Archbishop of York.
:01:00. > :01:01.One leading DIY chain is reported to be adjusting employment contracts
:01:02. > :01:08.And a confidential study suggests that half the residential homes
:01:09. > :01:10.and care services for the elderly will become financially unviable
:01:11. > :01:17.Yet it's just 50p an hour more, ?20 extra for a 40 hour week,
:01:18. > :01:18.and it will reduce the benefits bill.
:01:19. > :01:29.Is the minimum wage a mixed blessing?
:01:30. > :01:36.Paul Baxter from The National Federation Of Newsagents, some
:01:37. > :01:39.people at the Office for Budget Responsibility have calculated that
:01:40. > :01:46.this could mean 60,000 job losses between now and 2020, one academic
:01:47. > :01:51.at Brunel University says it is up to 300,000 job losses. What will it
:01:52. > :01:56.do as regards your members? I would like to say that, of course, staff
:01:57. > :01:59.are one of the most important assets of any retailer, and the ability to
:02:00. > :02:04.pay wages is critical in any business. But when wages rise so
:02:05. > :02:08.quickly it is difficult for a small business to establish those costs.
:02:09. > :02:14.The minimum wage has already risen by 13% over the last three years,
:02:15. > :02:18.this 10% increase for workers over the age of 25, forecast to grow by
:02:19. > :02:23.35% over the next few years, is a massive cost. Businesses have
:02:24. > :02:30.nowhere to go. Suppliers put cost is up, distributors put up costs,
:02:31. > :02:36.retailers' margins squeezed and they can do anything except for looking
:02:37. > :02:40.at saving costs. It means reducing working hours, reducing employment
:02:41. > :02:46.opportunities and, ultimately, closure of businesses. It is usually
:02:47. > :02:50.counter-productive? In many ways. There has been a decrease in
:02:51. > :02:56.full-time workers and part-time work ratios. 8 million people are working
:02:57. > :03:00.part-time, 800,000 people are on zero-hours contracts, which is
:03:01. > :03:03.forecast to increase. The OBR expect 4 million working is to be taken out
:03:04. > :03:09.of the supply chain, that is the effect that they see, that entry
:03:10. > :03:14.70,000 small shops closing, up to 900,000 jobs in retail lost. The
:03:15. > :03:24.boys Professor Kate Pickett, you cope roads The Spirit Level, a
:03:25. > :03:28.seminal work on poverty. What do you make of this? We could think about
:03:29. > :03:34.increasing productivity, but if we are paying low paid workers more
:03:35. > :03:38.they have more cash with which they can consume, and consumers keep
:03:39. > :03:43.small businesses like as going. Increasing productivity often means
:03:44. > :03:48.losing jobs? If you work harder, you need fewer colleagues? We do not
:03:49. > :03:52.know yet the impact on jobs. There are predictions that we will see job
:03:53. > :03:56.losses, the same thing happened when the national minimum wage was
:03:57. > :04:01.introduced initially, and it turned out not to be true. The national
:04:02. > :04:07.minimum wage has gone up 13% over last few years, a 10% increase in
:04:08. > :04:11.one go, over 30% in the next two years, if you are open for 120 hours
:04:12. > :04:16.a week, which is all a small shop can open, you cannot open any
:04:17. > :04:23.further. You can only make so much money, someone has to pay for it.
:04:24. > :04:27.Efficiency means losing jobs, part-time, ultimately, the customer
:04:28. > :04:35.pays. Are you willing to pay more money? Absolutely, I am. Let me take
:04:36. > :04:39.you back to greater productivity, it can mean fewer jobs because we need
:04:40. > :04:44.fewer colleagues, more unemployment, more people on benefits, higher
:04:45. > :04:47.taxes? It might, but we don't know. I don't have the huge amount of
:04:48. > :04:54.confidence in the predictions of economists. They didn't predict the
:04:55. > :04:57.global financial crisis, they predicted an absolute disaster with
:04:58. > :05:01.the introduction of the national minimum wage, which we did not see.
:05:02. > :05:05.I think we need to wait and see. But as well as an evidence case that
:05:06. > :05:11.paying people at the bottom higher wages increases productivity, we
:05:12. > :05:17.also know that if we could reduce costs at the top then companies with
:05:18. > :05:25.smaller pay ratio Stolze if the company Pallois four people, there
:05:26. > :05:33.is no top or bottom. -- if the company employs four people. Do we
:05:34. > :05:44.have an economist yet? Men, you have been maligned entertained! -- Len,
:05:45. > :05:48.you have been. We know roughly what happens when the minimum wage
:05:49. > :05:56.increase comes in. Firms try to get rendered in various ways, -- try to
:05:57. > :06:01.get round to it in various ways, chains are looking at increasing
:06:02. > :06:10.other aspects of the pay package. Automation is another way. There is
:06:11. > :06:15.a difference, when it was first introduced the low pay commission
:06:16. > :06:18.said they had to watch for jobs and make sure that businesses can afford
:06:19. > :06:25.it. I think they did a reasonable job. But this new thing was sprung
:06:26. > :06:30.on the Low Pay Commission at short notice, it was a George Osborne
:06:31. > :06:35.headline. When you think it through, there will be real problems. By 2020
:06:36. > :06:39.when it is working through to over ?9 an hour, the Government will be
:06:40. > :06:45.setting pay for about a quarter of the workforce, this is taking us
:06:46. > :06:50.back to the 1970s, the income policy etc, it will end badly. What about
:06:51. > :06:54.the principle. Graham, I will be with you in a moment. The principle,
:06:55. > :07:01.the message it sends out about society? We will pay a little bit
:07:02. > :07:06.more for our cappuccino so that the person who serves this gets a little
:07:07. > :07:11.bit more? And the person who wants to get a job serving cappuccino will
:07:12. > :07:16.not be able to do it, because jobs will disappear. Graham, is that
:07:17. > :07:23.right? There is an issue about showing people respect and weaving
:07:24. > :07:28.them dignity, I would not begrudge anyone ?7.20 an hour for a decent
:07:29. > :07:35.hour 's work. Oxfam and the Living Wage Foundation have been working
:07:36. > :07:40.with employers to get up to the voluntary living wage of ?8.25
:07:41. > :07:47.another, the aspiration. Lots of small players have signed up. Lots
:07:48. > :07:53.of small employers do not make the minimum wage themselves, so should
:07:54. > :07:56.they pay out of their own pockets? It does not happen in all parts of
:07:57. > :08:00.the business lobby, but we had to get away from this instinct of
:08:01. > :08:04.response, as soon as the business lobby say they will have another
:08:05. > :08:16.cost, they say they cannot afford it. Kate's point is key. A happier
:08:17. > :08:21.workforce who work for -- work harder? If you are happier, you are
:08:22. > :08:26.likely to stay in that role for many years, rather than companies having
:08:27. > :08:37.to re-recruit every six months for the same position, which is costly
:08:38. > :08:42.and takes up time. Paul Baxter? Working locally is the biggest
:08:43. > :08:49.community that any -- biggest benefit that any local community can
:08:50. > :08:53.have. It does not benefit the community if everybody in that area
:08:54. > :09:00.is low paid. Do you want more less people working? The vast majority of
:09:01. > :09:03.small businesses, small high street stores, do not earn enough
:09:04. > :09:06.themselves to pay their own families that. Without them working extra
:09:07. > :09:13.hours and their families being drafted in, it would not happen
:09:14. > :09:18.anyway. Professor Anthony Glees, I am delighted to many people want to
:09:19. > :09:23.come in. The important thing is not just what you are paid but watch
:09:24. > :09:29.your money will buy. One reason that I do not trust economists is that
:09:30. > :09:33.many of them repeatedly argued to devalue our currency, they say it is
:09:34. > :09:38.an advantage of leaving the EU, the reason they hate the euro. Give
:09:39. > :09:42.people a currency worth having. It does not matter how much it is, the
:09:43. > :09:50.important thing is that people will want to work, and we should respect
:09:51. > :09:54.people who work. Too much low pay is idiotic, none of us would work for
:09:55. > :10:00.low pay if we could choose to do so. You have an interest, Philip?
:10:01. > :10:07.Absolutely. What do you do and why are you particularly engaged by
:10:08. > :10:14.this? IM Chief Executive for Autism Plus, a regional wide social care
:10:15. > :10:20.provider for Yorkshire. In social care we cannot put up our prices,
:10:21. > :10:23.unlike some businesses, we are governed by contractual binding
:10:24. > :10:28.arrangements. We cannot off-load stuff, because we are obliged to
:10:29. > :10:32.provide a staffing ratio for people with complex needs. Our business is
:10:33. > :10:36.working with autistic people and people with related conditions with
:10:37. > :10:41.very, very complex needs. I applaud the increase in the living wage, all
:10:42. > :10:45.of our workers have been paid too little for far too long. We have
:10:46. > :10:49.gone through a period of austerity, the last six years have been
:10:50. > :10:55.difficult, with diminishing fee levels, no inflationary uplift in
:10:56. > :11:00.prices. An increased cost of regulation. And we are hamstrung by
:11:01. > :11:06.insufficient funds within the pot to pay for social care. Will operators
:11:07. > :11:09.see ways of getting around it, not paying for travel and so
:11:10. > :11:14.see ways of getting around it, not there other ways of circumventing
:11:15. > :11:20.this new charge? Of course. This is tinkering around the edges. The
:11:21. > :11:25.fundamental cost is in the people. 92% of our costs are in people. On
:11:26. > :11:30.the front line, delivering excellent services. I pay tribute to them
:11:31. > :11:33.today. We have excellent workers who have stayed with us through thick
:11:34. > :11:40.and thin on very poor levels of wages. I agree with my colleague
:11:41. > :11:43.from Oxfam, the Living Wage Foundation conducted recent research
:11:44. > :11:49.with Loughborough University and they reckon that the minimum wage
:11:50. > :11:56.for people to subsist on is ?8.25 outside of London, and over ?9. That
:11:57. > :11:59.is today, not 1920. If he takes a MIDI working in a care home and take
:12:00. > :12:09.the trouble out of it, they are getting ?3 50 an hour. Dick? The
:12:10. > :12:13.real problem is that every employer wants to see their workers treated
:12:14. > :12:18.properly and respectfully, but like Tata Steel, we have a huge problem
:12:19. > :12:23.in that there are no restrictions on cheap goods coming into the country
:12:24. > :12:27.from places where the minimum wage is 50p an hour, that has destroyed
:12:28. > :12:32.Tata Steel. It is not that players do not want to pay, every decent
:12:33. > :12:42.person wants to pay. But the reality is that globalisation has hugged it
:12:43. > :12:44.up. Sorry. Yellow card. Or should it be the sin-bin? More appropriate for
:12:45. > :12:55.this programme. I'm a local entrepreneur and I run a
:12:56. > :13:00.number of businesses. How does this affect you? It will have a major
:13:01. > :13:03.impact. We love our employees and have a great workforce, but to have
:13:04. > :13:07.that additional payment, plus the pensions and all the other things,
:13:08. > :13:11.as a small business I think it is going to have a major impact. The
:13:12. > :13:17.big boys get away with taxes, lots of things which we just cannot do.
:13:18. > :13:22.If you look at, we can't offset this. I think it will mean reducing
:13:23. > :13:28.the number of staff we have and or reducing the number of hours they
:13:29. > :13:32.work. Graham, you wanted to come in. The point is to go back to
:13:33. > :13:37.globalisation. Address that gentleman's point. Businesses face
:13:38. > :13:41.costs beyond pay. There are other things governments can do to support
:13:42. > :13:47.businesses. We have a higher proportion of people in low-paid
:13:48. > :13:52.work in the UK than almost all other developed economies. Why can
:13:53. > :14:03.Germany, US and Spain afford to pay their employees more. We can aspire
:14:04. > :14:11.to do more and pay better, increase productivity and staff satisfaction
:14:12. > :14:17.in the long run. What's your name? (Inaudible). The Government on the
:14:18. > :14:22.one hand givers and then takes it away with the other. How much are
:14:23. > :14:26.they going to save with the tax credit savings. The problems we have
:14:27. > :14:31.as small business is tenfold. The large organisations can get away
:14:32. > :14:35.with almost blue murder through tax evasion, all sorts of other things.
:14:36. > :14:43.Small businesses cannot do that. APPLAUSE. The gentleman there. Part
:14:44. > :14:47.of the problem is it is not nearly localised enough. We've talked about
:14:48. > :14:51.localism but York is one of the most expensive places to live in the
:14:52. > :14:57.north of England. When you compare Yorkshire and the north of England,
:14:58. > :15:01.the cost of living, I think what we need is regional Living Wages. Not
:15:02. > :15:10.just London. There are huge differences. Sorry I called York New
:15:11. > :15:14.York earlier on. York has been a leader in the payment of the Living
:15:15. > :15:22.Wage. The City Council pays the Living Wage. It requires companies
:15:23. > :15:25.to pay the Living Wage. The Joseph Rowntree Trust pays carers the
:15:26. > :15:28.Living Wage. One of the local universities does. I think they are
:15:29. > :15:35.helping lead the way in the region by saying low pay is not acceptable.
:15:36. > :15:39.It is not enough to say that employers all want to pay their
:15:40. > :15:44.employees well. Look at Sports Direct, where they have done all
:15:45. > :15:56.kinds of neverarious things to avoid paying even the minimum wage. --
:15:57. > :16:02.nefarious things to avoid paying even the minimum wage. What about
:16:03. > :16:07.cab drivers. They can work all night and take home 40 quid. One of the
:16:08. > :16:12.reasons why zero hours contracts have increased is that they have to
:16:13. > :16:16.pay minimum wages. I think you will find even more of them when the
:16:17. > :16:21.higher rates come in. The can I turn this around slightly? We've all been
:16:22. > :16:24.talking as if this was a good way of reducing poverty. I think the
:16:25. > :16:29.evidence is that it isn't. If you are not in work you don't get any
:16:30. > :16:35.benefit from this at all. Something like 60% of all those who are
:16:36. > :16:43.eligible for this Living Wage are actually working part time. It is
:16:44. > :16:55.not a Living Wage at all. It's a payment which would ekwif lies to a
:16:56. > :17:01.Living Wage if you worked 40-45 hours a week. A lot of these people
:17:02. > :17:05.are students... I agree it is not a living wage and at the moment you
:17:06. > :17:09.can be on minimum wage, get this lift to the new national minimum
:17:10. > :17:13.wage, but if you are in receipt of in-work benefits because of the cuts
:17:14. > :17:17.to universal credit, you could end up with a loss. This is a mixed
:17:18. > :17:22.blessing, as the Government are giving with one hand and taking
:17:23. > :17:27.away... A last word from you, as you've been nodding and shaking your
:17:28. > :17:31.head and grimacing and smiling all the way through. Baroness Afshar,
:17:32. > :17:36.professor of politics at the University of York, is there a is
:17:37. > :17:38.there a danger that some jobs - child minding, cleaning and
:17:39. > :17:43.gardening work and care homes, we could be moving to a cash this hand
:17:44. > :17:48.situation? It absolutely is the case, because if you are not having
:17:49. > :17:54.a proper job, and most of the people who earn that kind of wages don't
:17:55. > :17:59.have proper jobs. They fit it in as and when. Once this kind of
:18:00. > :18:04.legislation comes in, the as and when becomes cash in hand. That's
:18:05. > :18:09.very destructive for people whose money is not pocket money. A lot of
:18:10. > :18:17.the women who work now for cash in hand do so because had we have to.
:18:18. > :18:23.They don't choose to go and do very heavy cleaning, cooking. They have
:18:24. > :18:31.to do it. And at the same time they can't pay for childcare, so they can
:18:32. > :18:35.only do it at certain times. This will make their wages go even
:18:36. > :18:41.further down because it is cash in hand, with no benefit whatsoever.
:18:42. > :18:44.APPLAUSE. We'll be hearing from you again. Thank you all very much
:18:45. > :18:46.indeed for that. If you have something to say
:18:47. > :18:49.about that debate log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions,
:18:50. > :18:51.where you'll find links to join We're also debating live
:18:52. > :18:55.this morning from York. Is the Prevent strategy stifling
:18:56. > :18:57.discussion in schools? So get tweeting or emailing on those
:18:58. > :19:02.topics now or send us any other ideas or thoughts you may
:19:03. > :19:15.have about the show. On Monday, the National Union
:19:16. > :19:17.of Teachers conference called for the Government to withdraw
:19:18. > :19:20.its Prevent strategy in schools. Teachers say they have been asked
:19:21. > :19:23.to report even minor concerns about pupils who they fear may be
:19:24. > :19:27.at risk of radicalisation. Teachers say the unintended result
:19:28. > :19:30.has been to silence Muslim pupils in class discussions
:19:31. > :19:33.for fear their families might be So, is the Prevent strategy stifling
:19:34. > :19:50.discussion in schools? Mohammed Khalil, sorry I didn't come
:19:51. > :19:54.to you in the last one. I want to make a quick point... We've moved
:19:55. > :19:58.into that debate, Mohammed. We don't want to eat into our time here.
:19:59. > :20:03.Let's not stifle discussion on this. What kind of things are pupils
:20:04. > :20:07.afraid to discuss? This is encroaching into freedom of thought
:20:08. > :20:12.and speech. We want to develop children at school that can speak
:20:13. > :20:22.freely, think freely and develop themselves. This is stifling them.
:20:23. > :20:29.Now they think, I would rather keep that private. On foreign policy, a
:20:30. > :20:34.student might say that Palestine is an issue for me. The teacher might
:20:35. > :20:43.report them. Seriously? Most odd things. A three-year-old programme
:20:44. > :20:48.being referred for decalisation. How can you deradicalise a
:20:49. > :20:55.three-year-old baby? That story about the three-year-old being
:20:56. > :20:58.referred is not true. I think a four or five-year-old drew pictures and
:20:59. > :21:01.say things which caused the teacher to worry about what was said at
:21:02. > :21:11.home. A cucumber. LAUGHTER. This is a sort of
:21:12. > :21:14.anti-Prevent lobby group. Prevent is really important, it is important
:21:15. > :21:19.that it should be understood. It is not a way of stifling debate. It is
:21:20. > :21:30.ensuring that views are challenged. That's what this is about. I'm not
:21:31. > :21:39.anti-... Can I just say... A it is the duty of teachers to challenge
:21:40. > :21:45.extreme views. What if a pupil came to school with a swastika drawn on
:21:46. > :21:47.his or her hands and started talking about white racial supreme cism?
:21:48. > :21:54.Safeguarding, you would do something about it. Why is this different? I
:21:55. > :21:58.am a school Prevent Governor, I deal with case work. The last referral we
:21:59. > :22:03.made did not involve a Muslim. Obviously we are not able to talk
:22:04. > :22:08.about the details. I work with the police as an adviser. I'm not
:22:09. > :22:13.anti-Prevent in any way. What I'm anti-is doing an initiative that you
:22:14. > :22:17.pour hundreds of millions of pounds into which isn't delivering. At the
:22:18. > :22:24.end of the day it is demonising a whole community. Is it demonising? I
:22:25. > :22:28.don't believe it is. If people feel they are being picked on, spied on,
:22:29. > :22:31.it is going to further alienate them, so it is hugely
:22:32. > :22:34.counterproductive. Those are feelings that exist within our
:22:35. > :22:38.Muslim communities and there are reasons for that. But it is unfair
:22:39. > :22:42.to say that it is all because of the Prevent strategy. The Prevent
:22:43. > :22:45.strategy is very clear. We can't say it is the Prevent strategy that is
:22:46. > :22:50.stifling debate, because we have freedom of speech laws in this
:22:51. > :22:54.country that protect people. It allows people to express their views
:22:55. > :22:57.and opinions, no matter how distasteful we might find them, as
:22:58. > :23:01.long as they are not breaking the allow. Ight find them, as long as
:23:02. > :23:03.they are not breaking the allow. -- breaking the law. The Prevent
:23:04. > :23:13.strategy says schools need to be places where young people can
:23:14. > :23:17.express their views... Let me just focus something, we are hearing
:23:18. > :23:20.about children worried about coming to school and talking about tensions
:23:21. > :23:25.and problems and geopolitical issues in the Middle East which everybody
:23:26. > :23:30.should be talking about. Absolutely. What's gone wrong? What's gone wrong
:23:31. > :23:33.is the way this is being portrayed within our wider communities.
:23:34. > :23:38.Prevent is there to protect us. Absolutely. If you look at what's
:23:39. > :23:42.happening across the world. Look at the three girls from Bethnal Green
:23:43. > :23:47.who went out there. We want people to have these conversations, to be
:23:48. > :23:50.able to express these views, but when you have strong voices within
:23:51. > :23:54.the Muslim communities themselves which are saying, don't talk about
:23:55. > :23:59.this. Prevent is anti-Muslim, the West... It puts it into it that same
:24:00. > :24:06.narrative that people are allowed to take on board. Prevent is about
:24:07. > :24:10.safeguarding. Schools and teachers have been safe guarding for years.
:24:11. > :24:18.You mentioned the three schoolgirls from Bethnal Green who went to Syria
:24:19. > :24:21.to be raped. If that had been happening in your school, what would
:24:22. > :24:25.you have been looking out for and what would you have done about it
:24:26. > :24:30.and what might have been suspicious as an NUT representative. Address
:24:31. > :24:34.that point? As I understand it, the girls from Bethnal Green were model
:24:35. > :24:38.students. They were clever enough to fly under the radar. There were no
:24:39. > :24:42.signs, even looking back at what they were doing, that people could
:24:43. > :24:48.have picked up in the school. There's a limit to what schools can
:24:49. > :24:53.do. Can I be clear about the position we've taken as the National
:24:54. > :24:59.Union of Teachers? We believe 100% schools and teachers have a duty to
:25:00. > :25:03.protect pupils from all dangers that they face in a mixed up world. But
:25:04. > :25:08.we are saying that Prevent is a blunt instrument that's stopping
:25:09. > :25:13.teachers, hindering that work. 4,000 referrals in the last 18 months to
:25:14. > :25:17.the Prevent processes is not a sign of increased radicalisation. It is
:25:18. > :25:22.not a sign that the process is working. It should be a cause for
:25:23. > :25:26.concern and press the Stop button on it. We hear of young people being
:25:27. > :25:30.sent to school by families saying, don't discuss these things in
:25:31. > :25:40.school. What things? Don't discuss what's happening in Syria. Don't
:25:41. > :25:48.discuss Charlie Hebdo or these other issues. The message is that families
:25:49. > :25:53.are sending schools to children not to discuss these issues. If they are
:25:54. > :26:01.doing that, we are abandoning children to it. The NUT has behaved
:26:02. > :26:08.disgracefully. It is not just the NUT that's saying it. You can see
:26:09. > :26:14.what they think of free speech by the way he shouted me down. That's
:26:15. > :26:17.disgraceful. This is not about not having discussions in schools. It is
:26:18. > :26:22.about teachers ensuring that extreme views are challenged. We owe a duty,
:26:23. > :26:26.an ethical and professional thing for teachers to listen to what
:26:27. > :26:32.students say and challenge. And those people who don't want Prevent,
:26:33. > :26:36.and those teachers who don't want Prevent, have allowed certain
:26:37. > :26:44.schools certain faith schools to develop a culture of segregation and
:26:45. > :26:51.many things that are totally hostile to British values. Prevent is a way
:26:52. > :26:56.of making our country safer, and goodness knows we need to do that.
:26:57. > :27:01.And it is a way of making our children's life safer. To have the
:27:02. > :27:06.NUT say they are not going to do something that can make children's
:27:07. > :27:11.lives safer is outrageous. I will be with you in a second, Baroness. I
:27:12. > :27:15.will allow you to fully respond to that, I promise. I want to pick you
:27:16. > :27:20.up, professor, professor, on a phrase - extreme views. In the same
:27:21. > :27:25.sentence I think you spoke about freedom of speech. If we have
:27:26. > :27:31.freedom of speech we should be able to allow people to have, what's that
:27:32. > :27:36.phrase, non-violent extremism? There are extreme views in many different
:27:37. > :27:40.credos and faiths and schools of thought which are not consonant,
:27:41. > :27:43.some believe, in a liberal pluralistic society. What for
:27:44. > :27:48.example if somebody came to a school and said, I believe that homosexuals
:27:49. > :27:53.should burn in hell? Is that an extreme view? It certainly is an
:27:54. > :27:55.extreme view and it should be challenged by a professional
:27:56. > :28:03.teacher. That's what teaching is about. What we should not do though
:28:04. > :28:06.is let schools, universities and colleges become safe spaces which
:28:07. > :28:12.are safe for extremism and radicalisation. When we talk about,
:28:13. > :28:19.I'm sorry I don't know why the Baroness finds this funny, as it is
:28:20. > :28:24.a deadly serious topic. It is free speech under the law in this
:28:25. > :28:29.country. It is not untrammelled free speech.
:28:30. > :28:35.If it is your face, as toxic and disgusting that many people would
:28:36. > :28:39.find that, what would you do with somebody came to school and said, I
:28:40. > :28:45.think homosexuals should be burned in hell, it is my religion? We talk
:28:46. > :28:50.to them about it. I have had students who have wrote swastikas on
:28:51. > :28:53.their books. Teachers are well placed to discuss views with
:28:54. > :28:58.children, to show them the consequence of their views and to
:28:59. > :29:05.lead them away. He said that is what Prevent is. Preventer is not
:29:06. > :29:10.working. It is not just the NUT, the Government's independent adviser,
:29:11. > :29:14.David Anderson, senior figures in the Metropolitan Police and
:29:15. > :29:18.university lecturers have said that it is counter-productive, it creates
:29:19. > :29:22.a sense of us and them. One of the issues raised with Prevent is there
:29:23. > :29:28.is no accreditation or regulation of the training. Would it be OK if the
:29:29. > :29:32.training was done well? It is done by a multiplicity of dividers and
:29:33. > :29:38.varies in content. Some trainers have said that if a child learns
:29:39. > :29:42.Arabic or a girl wears a headscarf, that is cause for concern. In the
:29:43. > :29:48.context where Michael Wilshaw pretends there is a problem of the
:29:49. > :29:51.veil being worn in schools, David Cameron talks to Muslim parents
:29:52. > :29:55.about learning English, in that context you can see that, in the
:29:56. > :30:01.words of a senior Metropolitan Police officer, Prevent has become a
:30:02. > :30:04.toxic brands. We are not saying we are not cooperating, we are not
:30:05. > :30:08.saying these things are not important but we are saying about
:30:09. > :30:13.the whole strategy is counter-productive and we want to
:30:14. > :30:15.work with the Government on developing a better alternative to
:30:16. > :30:24.free people up to do these kinds of things. Mary? If we don't have, in
:30:25. > :30:30.schools, where the students can come in and talk about it, it will not
:30:31. > :30:39.be... We are abandoning them to the Internet. At abandoning them to the
:30:40. > :30:46.Internet? But Prevent does not stop people talking about things. It
:30:47. > :30:51.simply puts on schoolteachers AGT... But teachers on over the country say
:30:52. > :31:02.it is. Please stop interrupting me, for goodness... See afterwords! I
:31:03. > :31:11.promise the baroness. -- see me afterwards! Prevent was formulated
:31:12. > :31:16.to dealing with Muslims, it was introduced as such. Also, it
:31:17. > :31:22.completely fails to understand... Nobody actually asks why is it that
:31:23. > :31:29.bright, it is always the brightest and the best, Muslims, who choose to
:31:30. > :31:35.abandon their home, abandon their family, abandon the system to go and
:31:36. > :31:44.fight in Syria. What do you mean? What a generalisation. Very often
:31:45. > :31:48.the people who have been labelled... Disproportionately,
:31:49. > :31:55.the people who have been labelled... students. And nobody says, what are
:31:56. > :31:58.the opportunities? Because they are not challenged, you should challenge
:31:59. > :32:06.them. Instead of knocking the Government, go with it. Can I just
:32:07. > :32:15.finished? The reality is that if you have a name like her saying, Afshar,
:32:16. > :32:23.a Muslim name, you may be the best candidate, you do not get it -- if
:32:24. > :32:27.you have a name like Hossain, Afshar. This was raised in the House
:32:28. > :32:32.of Lords, and the Lord's agreed that there is a problem of Islamophobia
:32:33. > :32:44.and Muslims do not get the opportunities. Is there? We walking
:32:45. > :32:49.on a tightrope, -- we walking on a tight rope, we are raising
:32:50. > :32:56.legitimate concerns, but some might say that we are playing into a toxic
:32:57. > :32:59.narrative. We put upon, we are victims, stigmatising, playing up
:33:00. > :33:07.the paranoia. How do we negotiate that? There is Islamophobia, Muslims
:33:08. > :33:12.are demonised in the media for all sorts. But we must not use Prevent
:33:13. > :33:22.as a reason for that happening. One other point points that you make,
:33:23. > :33:28.you mention Prevent being about Muslims. When it first came out in
:33:29. > :33:32.2007/8, it was targeting Muslims than saying that you need to keep an
:33:33. > :33:36.eye on these people. We need to accept that when the strategy
:33:37. > :33:44.changed in 2011, it became clear that it is about all forms of
:33:45. > :33:50.extremism. Is statistically, they are still the largest... Who is
:33:51. > :33:55.going out to fight for Islamic State? The fact that you are a
:33:56. > :34:01.baroness in this country, you are living proof that that is nonsense.
:34:02. > :34:08.Animal-rights activists are not heading out to Syria, that is the
:34:09. > :34:11.point he is making. These are British people going to Syria.
:34:12. > :34:18.Audience? A couple of points before we move on. I find the Professor's
:34:19. > :34:25.views almost dangerous and patronising to young people.
:34:26. > :34:30.APPLAUSE Young people have been radicalised,
:34:31. > :34:37.they are not just an intelligent people, they are smart people,
:34:38. > :34:40.charismatic people of various faiths, Muslims, Christians,
:34:41. > :34:45.whoever, charismatic leaders have converted them. Telling a teacher to
:34:46. > :34:53.confront their views will not change that. But teachers need to be aware.
:34:54. > :34:58.Behind the entrepreneur? Not only is it patronising to the students, it
:34:59. > :35:02.is patronising to be teachers. They go into a job to protect, educate
:35:03. > :35:07.and care for these students, the Prevent strategy being brought in to
:35:08. > :35:14.safeguard is like the idea that they are not doing that already.
:35:15. > :35:20.APPLAUSE If they were doing it already, you
:35:21. > :35:29.would not need the Prevent strategy. Excuse me. There is a problem of
:35:30. > :35:34.extremism and radicalisation in our schools and colleges and
:35:35. > :35:39.universities. Some 60% of people who turn to terrorism are well-educated
:35:40. > :35:43.people. They hold those views because they have not been
:35:44. > :35:55.challenged at university and not being challenged...
:35:56. > :35:59.ALL TALK AT ONCE There are important points on both sides here.
:36:00. > :36:05.We have a problem with radicalisation, with young people
:36:06. > :36:11.going to Syria, with terrorism. Some people in our country want to kill
:36:12. > :36:14.that fellow citizens. How do we instil proper critical thinking in
:36:15. > :36:22.young people so they do not fall for one particular toxic narrative?
:36:23. > :36:27.Because life is complicated. I am a community advocate who is critical
:36:28. > :36:31.of Prevent but I am working with the police to train and support people
:36:32. > :36:36.on Prevent. We want to achieve the best results. We all agree that we
:36:37. > :36:45.do not want these kids going out there. David Cameron said the
:36:46. > :36:51.alternative, and he hinted at it, we cannot solve this alone, we need
:36:52. > :36:55.communities on side. Everybody agrees with this. But when your
:36:56. > :37:00.policy alienates the same people that you want on side, it becomes
:37:01. > :37:05.counter-productive. The other thing is the one-on-one intervention
:37:06. > :37:09.between a possibly radicalised person and those intervening has
:37:10. > :37:13.been beneficial. Look at other countries with effective mechanisms
:37:14. > :37:19.in place. We have poured hundreds of millions of pounds into this policy.
:37:20. > :37:23.The word toxic, and I was involved in the initial Prevent under Tony
:37:24. > :37:30.Blair and Gordon Brown, this policy is not effective enough, there are
:37:31. > :37:36.no key performance indicators. This is a very complicated, multifaceted
:37:37. > :37:40.problem, we will not solve it? We can try. I don't want to see any
:37:41. > :37:45.more young Muslims going out, putting their life on the line to
:37:46. > :37:50.fight for Daesh. The gentleman at the back made a very valid point,
:37:51. > :37:55.schools and teachers have been doing safeguarding for years. They have
:37:56. > :38:00.been safeguarding young people. That is making it harder... I am sorry, I
:38:01. > :38:04.do training in Prevent, we are making it clear that we're not
:38:05. > :38:09.asking you to do anything differently. You protect young
:38:10. > :38:13.people from grooming, sexual exploitation, child mental health.
:38:14. > :38:17.We are protecting radicalisation. I don't know how many schools or
:38:18. > :38:24.teachers Anthony has spoken to to have developed the position he has,
:38:25. > :38:29.we are speaking from experience. We want to work with you. Ladies and
:38:30. > :38:39.gentlemen, we have... ALL TALK AT ONCE British values need
:38:40. > :38:49.to be a for. We had to move on. We are going to
:38:50. > :38:54.talk about British witches in just a moment. That is enough. You do not
:38:55. > :38:58.talk to more teachers than we do. You can join in all this
:38:59. > :39:00.morning's debates by logging on to bbc.co.uk/the big questions
:39:01. > :39:02.then following the link Or you can tweet using
:39:03. > :39:05.the hashtag bbctbq. Tell us what you think
:39:06. > :39:08.about our last Big Question too ? Do Next Sunday we're back from York
:39:09. > :39:13.with our special debate commemorating the 400th anniversary
:39:14. > :39:16.of Shakespeare's death, asking, Is there more truth
:39:17. > :39:20.in Shakespeare than the Bible? We have the distinguished
:39:21. > :39:22.Shakespearean scholar, Professor Stanley Wells is on that,
:39:23. > :39:24.as well as the rapper, A fascinating question. A big
:39:25. > :39:34.question. And if you'd like to be
:39:35. > :39:38.in the audience at a future show, We're in Bath on 17th April
:39:39. > :39:41.and then, after a break for the London Marathon,
:39:42. > :39:44.we're in Salford on 1st May for our usual live morning programme
:39:45. > :39:47.and in the afternoon a special asking, should we be proud
:39:48. > :39:51.of the British Empire? This weekend, on the other side
:39:52. > :39:56.of Yorkshire in Sheffield, there's a Pagan Conference
:39:57. > :39:58.going on with stalls selling charms, Witchcraft has staged something
:39:59. > :40:06.of a revival in Britain. You can have a Wicca
:40:07. > :40:08.wedding or funeral. And you can even order
:40:09. > :40:11.a witch's services online. Is it just a bit of harmless fun,
:40:12. > :40:29.or are we toying with something Mary could not be a nicer person.
:40:30. > :40:34.You are a witch as well. So much part of our fall call, the White
:40:35. > :40:39.witch, black witch, wicked witch of the West. Which are you?
:40:40. > :40:44.LAUGHTER I would consider myself a grey
:40:45. > :40:50.which, not because I have grey hair. -- a grey witch. In all of us there
:40:51. > :40:54.is black and white, I would say that I am in the middle. But each day we
:40:55. > :41:00.are a bit more black or white, depending on how we are that day,
:41:01. > :41:08.hour or minute. We go up and down that grayscale. Wait a minute... I
:41:09. > :41:13.am pale grey this morning. A lot of people fade to black when they watch
:41:14. > :41:23.this programme, throwing things at the screen! You have an alter at
:41:24. > :41:28.home, and you have a Celtic to haunt cod of the forest that you worship.
:41:29. > :41:37.And who else? Gaya, the earth goddess. I also have Danube, another
:41:38. > :41:45.Celtic god is more to do with water and motherhood -- I also have Danu.
:41:46. > :41:52.There are about eight different gods and goddesses. You have a holy
:41:53. > :41:59.Trinity? As a pagan and a witch, I strongly believe that religion and
:42:00. > :42:04.spirituality should be about... It is balanced, and to have balance you
:42:05. > :42:17.need both a male and female. What is Trinity? It consists of the major,
:42:18. > :42:24.mother and chrome. -- the maid, mother and is crone. Could you wish
:42:25. > :42:29.misfortune on somebody or make mischief with a spell? I could, I
:42:30. > :42:35.would not do that. There are spells out there, but spells are about
:42:36. > :42:42.intent, putting energy into the spell to send it out into the ether.
:42:43. > :42:49.Jackson, you put a spell on me, that is why I called you New York
:42:50. > :42:53.earlier! Jackson Moonga from the York seventh-day Adventist Church.
:42:54. > :43:00.We have the Trinity there, you have your Trinity, let's all get on with
:43:01. > :43:01.each other. Is it Exodus or due to run me? Exodus says suffer not a
:43:02. > :43:13.witch to live? What is that mean? Let me answer the question put
:43:14. > :43:19.forward to us. What does it mean, suffer not a witch to live? Well, it
:43:20. > :43:24.means they should not live. They need to be, you know, killed. It is
:43:25. > :43:30.an abomination anyway. It is part of the saying that is existing. Is it
:43:31. > :43:38.an abomination? It is, yes. You think she's an abomination? No.
:43:39. > :43:45.Before the eyes of the Lord, yes. According to Deuteronomy 18: 10-12
:43:46. > :43:49.it says sorcerers, wizards and all witches, they are an abomination
:43:50. > :43:55.before the eyes of the Lord. Should he head be turned by Satan? They are
:43:56. > :44:00.being possessed by the devil, yes. LAUGHTER Do you think atheists have
:44:01. > :44:06.been affected by Satan as well if Well, they have... You told me that
:44:07. > :44:12.earlier on actually. LAUGHTER So don't hold back about
:44:13. > :44:19.want you think. You said yes. Take you back to the beginning. When God
:44:20. > :44:29.created the Earth, Heaven and Earth, he created everything in perfection
:44:30. > :44:35.yes? But the devil... You know... They came down among us... What
:44:36. > :44:41.yes? But the devil... You know... do you think, to be a witch? No. I
:44:42. > :44:44.know you think no. I'm asking what we
:44:45. > :44:47.know you think no. I'm asking what serious implications here. What
:44:48. > :44:53.should happen about witchcraft, what would you like? In other societies,
:44:54. > :44:59.apart from here in the UK, witches don't come out in the open to say
:45:00. > :45:05.they are witches, because they do things which are very harmful to
:45:06. > :45:09.society, right? Talk about Africa, the Caribbean and Asia, witches are
:45:10. > :45:17.known to be vampires, right? LAUGHTER. Excuse me, going back to
:45:18. > :45:25.your point about witches from beginning, if I said to you that
:45:26. > :45:33.Christ worked in the old ways, he used the old laws, he taught suffer
:45:34. > :45:36.little children to come unto me. He taught, treat your neighbours as
:45:37. > :45:41.yourself. All of these were the old laws. That's what Mary is saying as
:45:42. > :45:48.well. Yes. Are there any other witches here? It was only when
:45:49. > :45:54.Christ died that Christianity became something completely different. It
:45:55. > :46:03.became man made. Man made laws. Let me take it back, forget the 4th
:46:04. > :46:10.century stuff. Vampires. Somebody was likened to the vampiric, if
:46:11. > :46:14.somebody says on a programme they are a vampire and an abol nation, we
:46:15. > :46:22.have to have like of reply. LAUGHTER. Mary? I'm certainly not a
:46:23. > :46:28.vampire. I'm certainly not a vampire and I don't personally know any
:46:29. > :46:35.vampires. The pagan religions have been around since time began.
:46:36. > :46:40.Christianity is a new religion. It's only 2,000 years old. The old ways
:46:41. > :46:46.go much, much older. In fact, if you then look at the main three
:46:47. > :46:49.religions, Abrahamic, they've all come from the same line. Our
:46:50. > :46:56.religion, my religion, is much, much older than that. Jackson, come back
:46:57. > :47:02.on that. The devil is using different tools. In order to
:47:03. > :47:07.(Inaudible) one of the tools he has is actually witches, right? To
:47:08. > :47:14.control people's minds. Witches, what is their main purpose anyway?
:47:15. > :47:20.To control somebody else's mind. Debra, editor of The Sceptic, how
:47:21. > :47:26.dangerous is Jackson's attitude, because there are children being
:47:27. > :47:34.exorcised in Africa, and murdered. There was the body in the Thames a
:47:35. > :47:40.few years ago. The little boy, Hope, who was rescued. How dangerous is
:47:41. > :47:45.this? There is the allegation that you can do substantive harm with
:47:46. > :47:47.witchcraft. That means that you are entitled to take redress against
:47:48. > :47:51.them because it can affect you too. It is nonsense but it gives you
:47:52. > :47:55.licence to go and take an action against them. And this happens in
:47:56. > :48:01.Africa. APPLAUSE. And it happens here with
:48:02. > :48:07.our friends and neighbours too. Christie Bamu was murdered in 2010
:48:08. > :48:11.by his family memberses in the belief that he was possessed by
:48:12. > :48:16.demons. It matters and it has real consequences. Marian, you've studied
:48:17. > :48:21.this. This is like stepping back into the 17th century isn't it, we
:48:22. > :48:30.don't know how many, maybe 300,000 women and men were put to death,
:48:31. > :48:35.tortured. They called it gender cide and gynae cide. They were
:48:36. > :48:42.scapegoated weren't they? Yes, and we are still seeing it. It is part
:48:43. > :48:46.of the same pattern. Jackson is talking about the idea of witches
:48:47. > :48:52.who are evil people, as people would have done in the 16th and 17th sex
:48:53. > :48:57.ries in Britain. Whereas Mary is talking about modern paying annism
:48:58. > :49:00.as a religion of rituals and celebrations, which is something
:49:01. > :49:05.really rather different. We have to be careful when we use the word
:49:06. > :49:13.witchcraft to define what we mean by it. So there are a new paying
:49:14. > :49:16.annism. Why is it 95% women, why were they scapegoated? Where they
:49:17. > :49:23.ach sense trick? I think having pets was seen as very odd. That can be
:49:24. > :49:27.part of it. It is to do with domestic things, so therefore women
:49:28. > :49:35.are naturals is. For example if you can't churn your butter or if your
:49:36. > :49:43.cow dies or your milk goes off, in the 16th century you might think a
:49:44. > :49:48.witch had done it And they were midwives. They cared for them at the
:49:49. > :49:54.beginning of their lives and at the end of their lives. You could have
:49:55. > :50:00.it conflated with a top down inflicted label, as did you with
:50:01. > :50:04.very educated clergy, where they would scapegoat a member of the
:50:05. > :50:09.society, a scapegoat who would probably be fairly helplings and
:50:10. > :50:12.economically unproductive. And that is conflating them with cunning
:50:13. > :50:18.people who had a bit of medical knowledge, but they were
:50:19. > :50:25.self-consciously Christian. And in Salem in Massachusetts, famous as
:50:26. > :50:30.the. This crucible, the play by Arthur Miller, with the land
:50:31. > :50:34.disputes. We had big witch-hunts in Europe during the time of the
:50:35. > :50:39.Reformation. It was real politics and real economics. Jackson, now you
:50:40. > :50:48.are in a studio are there other witches in the audience? You are a
:50:49. > :50:54.witch? OK. Can I say one more thing? I will come back to you Debra.
:50:55. > :51:01.Jackson, now you are in a studio with a couple of witches, nice human
:51:02. > :51:07.beings, does it not moderate your thought that they are vampires? No,
:51:08. > :51:13.I read what was this the Bible. Remember I gave you quotation.
:51:14. > :51:19.What's your belief? My belief is Christ died for sinners. Everyone
:51:20. > :51:27.who sins has an opportunity, we are guaranteed salvation. Being a witch
:51:28. > :51:33.and embrace Christ as your personal saviour, then you will change. But
:51:34. > :51:37.it is evil, Satan is involved here. Any other thoughts on this? Paul
:51:38. > :51:45.Baxter from the National Association...
:51:46. > :51:52.LAUGHTER. Satanism has got nothing to do with Wicca. Satanism is of the
:51:53. > :51:56.Christian church. Wicca has been around much longer, and I'm a
:51:57. > :52:01.Catholic when I say that. The I've read the Bible, and the Koran. I
:52:02. > :52:11.totally disagree with what he is saying. Of course you would! The
:52:12. > :52:17.gentleman at the back. Witchcraft is a religion. It was said by the
:52:18. > :52:20.gentleman that it is a mind game, taking over their minds. All
:52:21. > :52:28.religions take over people's minds. APPLAUSE. Anyone else in the
:52:29. > :52:30.audience who has real worries about witchcraft and thinks... Well,
:52:31. > :52:40.there's a surprise! LAUGHTER. Whether we are talking
:52:41. > :52:44.about brainwashing or witchcraft or extremism, this is brainwashing
:52:45. > :52:50.people. What is? To talk about Satan. To talk about witches. Excuse
:52:51. > :53:01.me, madam, I don't mind you having a bit of fun. Maybe you even do a bit
:53:02. > :53:09.of flying Maybe you even do a bit of flying on a broom strict - I don't
:53:10. > :53:14.know. But we shouldn't forget that many, many people are killed because
:53:15. > :53:18.of these crazy irrational ideas. Absolutely.
:53:19. > :53:23.APPLAUSE. That is not a laughing matter. Mary? It is down to
:53:24. > :53:27.education. That's one of the reasons reasons why we are here - education.
:53:28. > :53:31.How many people actually know that paying annism and witchcraft is a
:53:32. > :53:38.spirituality. It is my path. It is what I choose to do?
:53:39. > :53:43.APPLAUSE. It doesn't make me mad. Give me an example of a spell. A
:53:44. > :53:48.good spell, you might have a friend that's been having a really bad day.
:53:49. > :53:49.She's got problems at work. You want her to feel better about yourself,
:53:50. > :53:53.so what you can simply her to feel better about yourself,
:53:54. > :54:01.candle. We her to feel better about yourself,
:54:02. > :54:06.and you send her good wishes. Just give her a gin and tonic.
:54:07. > :54:10.LAUGHTER. That might work. But people don't realise in our everyday
:54:11. > :54:14.speech we are sending good intentions out to people. It is
:54:15. > :54:20.about sending energy out, sending a thread of energy out to your
:54:21. > :54:26.neighbours, your friends across the world, to Gaia herself. That's the
:54:27. > :54:30.way of psychology, the way CBT works, the thoughts you have in your
:54:31. > :54:35.minds. I want to bring the Baroness in. It was the witches who first
:54:36. > :54:40.dealt with problems that women had, who dealt with abortion, who dealt
:54:41. > :54:44.with the care of women. They have been the mainstay of what followed
:54:45. > :54:50.later on and was made legal. They were the first doctors and they were
:54:51. > :54:54.focused on women. I think all women, who are the majority of the
:54:55. > :55:03.population, should be grateful to them. Thank you. Mohammed, I know in
:55:04. > :55:11.Islam sorcery, as it is called, with the arrows and stuff, that's haram.
:55:12. > :55:22.That's right. Is this evil? Before Islam came to Mecca paying annism
:55:23. > :55:32.was practised there. If you had a daughter you buried the daughter
:55:33. > :55:37.alive and that was the belief. What we are doing now, it allows you
:55:38. > :55:39.freedom of choice. There's a lot of similarity between the Bible, in
:55:40. > :55:42.terms of you had the freedom of choice, the freedom to practise
:55:43. > :55:47.whatever religion you want. However, had you will be accountable for it
:55:48. > :55:52.after your death. That's the point. But he thinks you're going to be
:55:53. > :55:56.accountable and you think he's going to be accountable.
:55:57. > :56:02.LAUGHTER. Don't you two start ganging up with each other. As a
:56:03. > :56:05.witch I don't have a problem with anybody else's religion. I'm quite
:56:06. > :56:10.happy. You celebrate yours... Why is she going to be accountable for
:56:11. > :56:20.lighting a candle and hoping her friend has a nice day? We
:56:21. > :56:25.conflate paganifm with witchcraft. There were all sorts of that. Nobody
:56:26. > :56:26.said they were witchcraft. In fact people practised that within them.
:56:27. > :56:31.We are talking about the practise people practised that within them.
:56:32. > :56:35.magic specifically, and we should probably be careful about that.
:56:36. > :56:40.That's the thing that Jackson objects to and the thing that you
:56:41. > :56:48.are saying is fine. Just like you said in the Bible, and in you want
:56:49. > :56:50.to practise magic, go to Koran and it tells you how to do it but it
:56:51. > :56:57.tells you you have gone outside of it tells you how to do it but it
:56:58. > :57:02.the Koran. Does magic work? Yes, because it is specific, we say in
:57:03. > :57:07.the Koran, there's specific guidance. So magic is real? Believe
:57:08. > :57:13.in spirits. Ee Are guidance. So magic is real? Believe
:57:14. > :57:18.fire? And to realise that in reality a lot of people queues, and we don't
:57:19. > :57:23.want to do that, mental illness with trying to blame everything on that
:57:24. > :57:30.sort of thing. Jackson. As long as we are still living on this earth,
:57:31. > :57:33.Satan will still be existing. To get rid of the sin, we need the
:57:34. > :57:40.intervention of the Holy Spirit. All these things we are talking about,
:57:41. > :57:43.we are talking about Prevent, issues of (Inaudible) and so forth, it is
:57:44. > :57:48.all to do with mind control, right? It is all to do with mind control.
:57:49. > :57:54.There's a great contrast that is existing... Debra, I'm sorry we
:57:55. > :58:03.didn't get to you earlier. Are you with the evangelicals or the
:58:04. > :58:07.witches? We mentioned brainwashing and mind control. It is easy to look
:58:08. > :58:13.at the silliness of other people without looking at the silliness of
:58:14. > :58:17.yourself. Really, most religious ideas are as preposterous as
:58:18. > :58:23.believing in fairies, but we notice other people's silliness. Thank you,
:58:24. > :58:25.a fascinating discussion held in good spirits, so give yourselves a
:58:26. > :58:28.round of applause. APPLAUSE.
:58:29. > :58:30.As always, the debates will continue online and on Twitter.
:58:31. > :58:33.We're back from York next Sunday for that special on Shakespeare
:58:34. > :58:35.versus the Bible, so do join us then.
:58:36. > :58:49.Wish all your friends a marvellous Sunday. Light some candles. In fact
:58:50. > :58:49.I think you should like four candles.
:58:50. > :58:59.LAUGHTER. Have a great day.