:00:00. > :00:24.And humour - does religion need more laughs?
:00:25. > :00:32.Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions.
:00:33. > :00:34.Today, we're live from Oasis Academy Media City UK in Salford.
:00:35. > :00:36.Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.
:00:37. > :00:44.It's been a tricky week for the Labour Party.
:00:45. > :00:47.Suspending one MP over anti-Semitism is bad enough
:00:48. > :00:52.a leading light of the National Executive,
:00:53. > :00:54.pilloried by the press and fellow party members
:00:55. > :00:57.and then suspended in the week before the local elections
:00:58. > :01:01.But surely everyone has the right to criticise policies,
:01:02. > :01:04.people and countries we disagree with, provided what we say
:01:05. > :01:10.does not incite racial or religious hatred or violence.
:01:11. > :01:14.Lots of people across the world have profoundly disagreed with Israel's
:01:15. > :01:16.policies and actions over the years, especially towards Palestine
:01:17. > :01:26.It doesn't mean they don't think that Israel should exist at all.
:01:27. > :01:33.Is anti-Zionism Anti-Semitic? Angela Epstein, good morning. Angela, this
:01:34. > :01:36.political idea of Zionism and the homeland, we have got our heads
:01:37. > :01:40.around that but if somebody were to say, and we will navigate our way
:01:41. > :01:44.through this, it will be fascinating, if somebody were to say
:01:45. > :01:48."I believe in a multiethnic one state solution in that part of the
:01:49. > :01:57.world, therefore Israel as such does not have a right to exist," is that
:01:58. > :02:01.Anti-Semitic? Israel is the Jewish homeland to delegitimise the Jewish
:02:02. > :02:06.homeland, that is to say the Jews, Jews from all over the world, have
:02:07. > :02:09.not got a right to be there. We have all bought into this week the
:02:10. > :02:15.grotesque references to the Holocaust, the final solution, that
:02:16. > :02:20.Ken Livingstone, a rabid anti-Semite, has made. Rabid
:02:21. > :02:25.anti-Semite? Allow me to finish. The Nazis were genocidal murders who
:02:26. > :02:30.slaughtered millions of Jews and to even nod your head towards that in
:02:31. > :02:37.the circumspect political discourse is disgraceful. That statement I
:02:38. > :02:40.said, it is Anti-Semitic? It is, because you are saying the Jews do
:02:41. > :02:45.not have a right to their homeland and you can't say, as the MP very
:02:46. > :02:50.lamentably said about Jews in Israel being transported to America, Naz
:02:51. > :02:56.Shah, again, this language of the third Reich. How can it not
:02:57. > :03:00.reference anti-Semitism and prejudice? Everybody has a right to
:03:01. > :03:02.criticise every government on the planet, no government should be
:03:03. > :03:09.immune to criticism, including Israel. There are Jews that litter
:03:10. > :03:11.size Israel. But when its views over into unreconstructed bitter
:03:12. > :03:16.invective, so disproportionate and especially when prepared to --
:03:17. > :03:20.compared to countries with lamentable human rights record, you
:03:21. > :03:25.have to question is anti-Zionism a Trojan horse for anti-Semitism and
:03:26. > :03:29.why don't they like us? Listen, we have plenty of time. It is all
:03:30. > :03:35.right. Benjamin Netanyahu, the Prime Minister, he wanted to pass this law
:03:36. > :03:40.saying Israel is the nation state of one people only, the Jewish people
:03:41. > :03:43.and of no other people. If any other country in the world said that,
:03:44. > :03:53.people would be jumping up and down saying it is racist. Is that racist?
:03:54. > :03:58.I don't think it is racist. I am sorry, if you allow me the courtesy
:03:59. > :04:04.of finishing. Let's go back to the question, is it Anti-Semitic to
:04:05. > :04:07.be... Is anti-Zionism a form of anti-Semitism? You have a right to
:04:08. > :04:13.criticise other governments and what governments do or say. Their
:04:14. > :04:19.parents, we will spread it out. I want to establish parameters here.
:04:20. > :04:25.Let Angela answer and then I might very well come to you, and then we
:04:26. > :04:32.have lots of other people on this side, and on this site. Let me just
:04:33. > :04:36.say, before the establishment of the state, there was a partition plan
:04:37. > :04:42.where the Arabs were offered their own state alongside the Jewish
:04:43. > :04:50.state, and that was unilaterally rejected and over subsidies and --
:04:51. > :04:53.subsequent wars, Israel gained territory out of defensive moves.
:04:54. > :04:56.There was an opportunity before the foundation of the state to live
:04:57. > :05:03.side-by-side and this is how it has come to this. Let's take it...
:05:04. > :05:08.Side-by-side or separately, OK. There are a lot of Israeli Arabs
:05:09. > :05:12.that live well in the jurisdiction. Lead me take you to this week's
:05:13. > :05:18.debate. I will come to you in a second, Raza. Professor Machover,
:05:19. > :05:25.the Jewish dissident, an Israeli dissident. For example, I saw a
:05:26. > :05:29.Tweet this week saying the Israeli government are as bad as the Nazis.
:05:30. > :05:35.I saw somebody tweeting that this week. Is that Anti-Semitic? No, it
:05:36. > :05:41.is a false statement, it is hyperbole, it is unnecessarily
:05:42. > :05:47.provocative but Anti-Semitic, it isn't. It is not trying to create
:05:48. > :05:52.hate or express hate. How can that not be trying to create hate?
:05:53. > :06:01.Because it is a political statement about the state of Israel, which is
:06:02. > :06:12.a political entity. But... But if you don't allow criticism,
:06:13. > :06:16.deconstruction and refutation of Zionism, then you are not able to
:06:17. > :06:22.understand the policies that we are allowed to criticise. For example,
:06:23. > :06:29.the settlements, what are they? They are colonisation. So you say it
:06:30. > :06:33.stops debate? It stops understanding because the root cause of the
:06:34. > :06:38.colonisation of the West Bank is the fact that Zionism, from its very
:06:39. > :06:41.beginning, was a movement not for creating a homeland anywhere but
:06:42. > :06:47.colonising other country inhabited by another people in order to make
:06:48. > :06:52.that a nation of the Jewish religion. Let me ask you one more
:06:53. > :06:57.question, we have heard talk this week and in previous weeks from
:06:58. > :07:02.presidents of the NUS, Ken Livingstone, referring to the
:07:03. > :07:06.Israeli lobby, she has referred to the Zionist media, this makes a lot
:07:07. > :07:10.of people uncomfortable, it relates back to the protocols of the Elders
:07:11. > :07:17.of Zion, which was all about the Jewish worldwide conspiracy. Is the
:07:18. > :07:24.phrase" Zionist controlled media" Anti-Semitic? No, it is false and
:07:25. > :07:27.again hyperbole and it may be offensive, especially to journalists
:07:28. > :07:33.but Anti-Semitic, it isn't. It is a statement about the political twist
:07:34. > :07:44.of certain papers. For example, I read the Guardian. One of its main
:07:45. > :07:51.editors is Jonathan Freedman, a Zionist propagandist. Louise Ellman,
:07:52. > :07:54.MP. I think Jonathan would be pretty bemused to hear that a description
:07:55. > :08:00.of him. The problem isn't about criticising the policies of the
:08:01. > :08:05.Government of Israel. The phrase "Zionist media" is it Anti-Semitic?
:08:06. > :08:11.I think it is, it is taking the malign characteristics that
:08:12. > :08:14.anti-Semites attributed Jews, rich, manipulative, involving
:08:15. > :08:21.conspiracies, and transferring it to Zionism, Jewish self-determination.
:08:22. > :08:28.Rubbish! That is where people move from legitimate criticism of a
:08:29. > :08:33.country to something much deeper. And it is about singling out Israel
:08:34. > :08:36.amongst all the countries of the world. It is the only country that
:08:37. > :08:45.doesn't have any legitimacy to exist. Not about our policy, about a
:08:46. > :08:50.-- not about its policy, about its existence. There is something about
:08:51. > :08:54.them being singled out, look at the conflict in the world, it is the
:08:55. > :08:59.only country that doesn't have a justified existence. I find
:09:00. > :09:08.something deeply disturbing enough. Raza Nadim, it is kind of... You can
:09:09. > :09:13.apply the Nick Griffin test to this, Raza. Some of the comments we have
:09:14. > :09:16.heard from Naz Shah, from the president of the NUS, from Ken
:09:17. > :09:22.Livingstone. If they came from the lips of Nick Griffin, the former
:09:23. > :09:24.leader of the British National Party, most right minded people
:09:25. > :09:35.would think that those comments were vile. That surely is the case? He is
:09:36. > :09:43.a racist with previous form, C can't really say that the others are like
:09:44. > :09:49.him. But if you use the word "Solution", "Transportation". If
:09:50. > :09:56.someone says they are not racist, it doesn't give them carte blanche to
:09:57. > :09:59.be Anti-Semitic. What I find annoying, I think anti-Semitism is a
:10:00. > :10:06.real issue but made light of by saying anyone who criticises Israel,
:10:07. > :10:08.it is nothing to do with occupation, dropping white phosphorus on
:10:09. > :10:19.children, it is just because you hate Jews. That is disgusting!
:10:20. > :10:22.Angela, wait. I am trying to make this civilised, I have been doing
:10:23. > :10:26.radio and television debates on this issue the 28 years and it is never
:10:27. > :10:36.particularly civilised. I want to have a new first. Some hope. Let's
:10:37. > :10:39.persevere, Raza. It is important about the context in which this
:10:40. > :10:42.debate is taught rapidly taking place. This debate about
:10:43. > :10:47.anti-Semitism isn't taking place because a Tory MP bought a natty
:10:48. > :10:52.outfit for his aide to wear, or because Boris Johnson referred to
:10:53. > :10:56.African leaders as watermelon smiles, it is a concerted effort to
:10:57. > :11:01.undermine Jeremy Corbyn's leadership and say those support him are
:11:02. > :11:10.Anti-Semitic. John Landsman, the Chair of hope Bakkali Momentum,
:11:11. > :11:14.which is the Jamie: support group -- the Chair of Momentum. He tweeted, a
:11:15. > :11:22.period of silence from Ken Livingstone is overdue, especially
:11:23. > :11:26.anti-Semitism, racism and Zionism. Does that not tell you it is nothing
:11:27. > :11:29.to do with a campaign against Jeremy Corbyn? It tells me he is basically
:11:30. > :11:35.finding the media pressure too much to take. To call Ken Livingstone a
:11:36. > :11:39.rabid anti-Semite, it is throwing that word around. You cannot just
:11:40. > :11:50.call him an anti-Semite. It is ridiculous. And you talk about
:11:51. > :11:57.phosphorus! Professor, in a second. Rabbi Benjy Rickman. I think when
:11:58. > :12:02.people who obsessed with anti-Israel agenda, it is that emotional
:12:03. > :12:06.language you get from one side that likes to throw out accusations, when
:12:07. > :12:12.you have a fixated attitude that sees Israel as the anti-everything
:12:13. > :12:17.that is good in the world, does become synonymous with anti-Zionism.
:12:18. > :12:20.There are tens of thousands of people being killed to the northern
:12:21. > :12:25.border of Israel. Where are the demonstrations and the anger at
:12:26. > :12:28.humanity being wiped out on a weekly basis when America accidentally
:12:29. > :12:36.kills innocents over the years in Afghanistan and other places? The
:12:37. > :12:40.media is quiet. When it comes to Israel, all of a sudden you have
:12:41. > :12:45.this obsession, the vociferous, violent and passionate anger that is
:12:46. > :12:47.beyond rational conversation and it does become synonymous with
:12:48. > :12:56.anti-Semitism. We really do feel that in our community. Tony, let me
:12:57. > :13:02.phrase this to Tony Greenstein, who is a veteran campaigner on this,
:13:03. > :13:06.Jews for boycotting Israeli goods, is this beyond rational this hatred
:13:07. > :13:13.of Israel but we here? Of course not. I am Jewish, I was born in this
:13:14. > :13:16.country. My homeland is in Britain, not in Israel. What is outrageous is
:13:17. > :13:20.that Palestinian friends abide who were born in Israel and grew up
:13:21. > :13:27.there cannot return there and I, who have never been born there, can go
:13:28. > :13:32.to Israel. It is not about anti-Semitism. I will tell you what
:13:33. > :13:35.it is about. It is difficult to justify locking up 12-year-old
:13:36. > :13:41.Palestinian children and beating them up. It is difficult that 93% of
:13:42. > :13:46.Israel is Jewish land that Arabs cannot ascertain. It is difficult to
:13:47. > :13:50.justify when you are pregnant, you go into award, if you are Jewish,
:13:51. > :13:57.you can have a ward where there are no Arabs with it. That is not
:13:58. > :14:02.anti-Semitism. I am going to come to joy Wolfe but I want to ask you,
:14:03. > :14:06.Tony, does the state of Israel have a right to exist? No state has a
:14:07. > :14:12.right to exist, states are not human beings. Israel or Palestine has a
:14:13. > :14:17.right to exist as a state of its own citizens, not as a state of Jewish
:14:18. > :14:24.people. Joy Wolfe, don't worry. We have time. Professor Machover is
:14:25. > :14:27.rewriting history. At the beginning, when there was an opportunity for
:14:28. > :14:31.two states alongside each other, it could and should have happened and
:14:32. > :14:35.what happened was there was a war launched an Israel once land. When
:14:36. > :14:44.Israel has tried to give back land, tried to give back land to Gaza,
:14:45. > :14:48.tried to give it back... Rubbish! It is not rubbish and what is rubbish
:14:49. > :14:56.is white phosphorus on children. We have photos of that. Everyone be
:14:57. > :15:00.quiet for one second, please. I want to say one thing to you now, we are
:15:01. > :15:06.inevitably straying into the politics of the Middle East. And it
:15:07. > :15:10.is a natural and understandable corollary of our conversation and of
:15:11. > :15:15.our debate, but I want to, as much as possible, if we could, focus on
:15:16. > :15:21.this area between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism and try if we can to
:15:22. > :15:24.establish where something and when something becomes Anti-Semitic. If
:15:25. > :15:30.that is OK, everyone, that would be great? Join. What I can't understand
:15:31. > :15:35.is this, there are conflicts throughout the world and somehow the
:15:36. > :15:39.spotlight is always on Israel. Now, you have to ask the question, why is
:15:40. > :15:43.the spotlight always on Israel? Is it because it is the Jewish state,
:15:44. > :15:47.which is what I believe? Israel isn't perfect, it does a lot of
:15:48. > :15:52.things wrong. We have got a lot of enemies but we do a lot for the
:15:53. > :15:55.world. Why is it that a group of doctors wanting Israel out of the
:15:56. > :16:01.World Health Organisation when Israel has done so much in research?
:16:02. > :16:06.The apartheid state of South Africa offered a lot as well. Professor
:16:07. > :16:08.Machover and Tony Greenstein are the worst well-known anti-Jewish people
:16:09. > :16:15.in this country, so we are up against a wall here and the truth
:16:16. > :16:18.is, there is no reason why Jews and Palestinians and Arabs cannot and do
:16:19. > :16:24.live alongside each other in Israel and live very well and if you ask...
:16:25. > :16:27.There is no such thing as Israeli -- Israeli Apartheid, it is the
:16:28. > :16:41.opposite of apartheid. The phrase "Israeli apartheid" is
:16:42. > :16:49.that anti-Semitic? Of course it is anti-Semitic! Can I say first of
:16:50. > :16:53.all, gentlemen, as a board Nicky and we are trying to have a civilised
:16:54. > :16:55.debate and the fact that you are shouting down anything supporting
:16:56. > :17:01.Israel says something about the weakness of your argument. As a
:17:02. > :17:05.fellow Jew, Hitler would not have distinguished between you and me,
:17:06. > :17:12.remember that. You'd have been on the trains with everyone else
:17:13. > :17:14.regardless of your views. Ken Livingstone was criticised for
:17:15. > :17:20.bringing Hitler into the conversation. I am Jewish, unlike
:17:21. > :17:26.Ken Livingstone I would have been a target for Hitler, he would not have
:17:27. > :17:30.been. To bring the debate back... Well, behave mature Lee! To bring
:17:31. > :17:36.the debate back to the original question, the problem is that
:17:37. > :17:42.Zionist has become a byword for Jew. Jewish students on campus... On
:17:43. > :17:48.occasions it can do, on other occasions it doesn't. Professor
:17:49. > :17:52.Camille can make a statement in a second. You can say something in one
:17:53. > :18:01.second. We will let and the finish and then we'll come to you. -- will
:18:02. > :18:05.let Angela finish. Many Jewish students including my own children
:18:06. > :18:19.experience this on campus, they have been called Zio which has become a
:18:20. > :18:22.leader of the tree byword for Jew. Birmingham University has been
:18:23. > :18:29.described, disgracefully, as a Zionist outpost. Give me the
:18:30. > :18:38.opportunity and I will explain. You have had your opportunity! Come to
:18:39. > :18:41.your closing remarks. The fact is that Birmingham University has
:18:42. > :18:45.attracted a lot of Jewish students, just as Glaswegians might want to be
:18:46. > :18:51.with other Glaswegians, Jewish students might want to be with other
:18:52. > :18:57.Jewish students, how can calling them that not be anti-Semitism? I
:18:58. > :19:03.want to take a step towards the other side. I can understand their
:19:04. > :19:09.rage. Zionist Jews have made Zionism and part of their Jewish identity.
:19:10. > :19:13.It is as though it is a segregated religion. So when Zionism is
:19:14. > :19:19.attacked, they feel that their Jewishness is attacked. Taxed at
:19:20. > :19:25.non-Zionist Jews to not feel that it's anything to do with the tuition
:19:26. > :19:31.identity -- but non-Zionist Jews do not feel it's anything to do with
:19:32. > :19:37.their identity. And you do? I respect them. I respect what they
:19:38. > :19:43.think. But what they do is questionable especially when it
:19:44. > :19:47.involves colonisation of land. Do you accept the point made,
:19:48. > :19:53.Professor, that there are many worse excesses and atrocities are other
:19:54. > :19:56.states across the world, which disproportionately not focused on?
:19:57. > :20:05.There are two points. Israel is not the only in the world but it is the
:20:06. > :20:09.only one where colonisation is still ongoing, in the USA, and Australia,
:20:10. > :20:16.they have been marginalised and in some places exterminated. In the
:20:17. > :20:21.case of Israel and Palestine colonisation is ongoing. Secondly,
:20:22. > :20:26.there are states that are in the same position for example Pakistan,
:20:27. > :20:33.another state funded on religion which is a danger to the world, two
:20:34. > :20:44.of them, nuclear armed states which are a
:20:45. > :20:47.danger to their surroundings. And North Korea as well. I want some
:20:48. > :20:50.quick comments on the audience. Louise, I must give you the right of
:20:51. > :20:53.reply on that because strong things were said by the Professor. What we
:20:54. > :20:59.have just heard is distortion. There is bitter conflict between Jewish
:21:00. > :21:05.and Palestinian nationalism, both legitimate concepts that can only be
:21:06. > :21:11.resolved by a political solution... Let her finish. What has happened is
:21:12. > :21:16.that there have been walls. Israel has fought defensive walls, and as a
:21:17. > :21:20.result ended up occupying land that it did not have previously. When a
:21:21. > :21:27.peace treaty was reached with Egypt, Israel withdrew from the whole of
:21:28. > :21:34.the Sinai. Israel then withdrew from the whole of Gaza. Unfortunately
:21:35. > :21:39.that was followed by Tomas, and to call Israel and apartheid state is a
:21:40. > :21:43.slur. It goes back to singling Israel out. One third of Israeli
:21:44. > :21:52.citizens are not Jewish. They are Arabs or Muslims. Israel is not an
:21:53. > :21:57.apartheid state. Yes, there are problems, yes, the whole issue of
:21:58. > :22:01.settlements and expansion of land has to be resolved by discussion,
:22:02. > :22:06.when people talk about this bitter dispute, it is only too, to single
:22:07. > :22:10.out Israel as being solely responsible for the solution. What
:22:11. > :22:17.about the Palestinians as well? The two pupils have to come together to
:22:18. > :22:19.negotiate a solution. Maligning Israel as being solely responsible
:22:20. > :22:27.is an example of singling out Israel, the only Jewish state
:22:28. > :22:32.involved. Audience, some quick comments, if you would, some pithy
:22:33. > :22:36.comments. Hello, what would you like to say? Think people worried about
:22:37. > :22:40.the actions of the Israeli state not just worried about Israel, they are
:22:41. > :22:44.concerned about other social and political issues, in this country,
:22:45. > :22:49.we concerned about junior doctors, it is not about Israel all the time.
:22:50. > :22:55.Don't focus too much on it, think about other countries. The gentleman
:22:56. > :23:01.in the blacktop? Most sane people would agree that Israel does right
:23:02. > :23:05.to exist and to defend its borders. Nevertheless by the same token I
:23:06. > :23:10.think that Palestine also has a right to exist. Hopefully as
:23:11. > :23:15.President Obama said, two states can live in harmony. It might take time
:23:16. > :23:19.but you must be optimistic. Just to condemn Israel because it is a
:23:20. > :23:28.Jewish state, as far as I am concerned, that is anti-Semitic as
:23:29. > :23:34.well. Raza come you are next on the list. The lady next to you?
:23:35. > :23:39.Interesting what the professor said about Jews that are not Zionist. I
:23:40. > :23:44.am not particularly either. I believe if we had to social justice
:23:45. > :23:48.in every single country would not need Israel! My point is, not being
:23:49. > :23:52.particularly Zionist and having no particular connection to Israel, I
:23:53. > :23:58.fail to understand why so many British and European people do seem
:23:59. > :24:02.to have such an canny connection to the Middle East. So much so that
:24:03. > :24:09.they are prepared to malign Israel at every single opportunity when not
:24:10. > :24:17.quite so many members malign, say, China and Tibet, or India and
:24:18. > :24:21.Kashmir. It is audience time. I will be with you, don't look at me like
:24:22. > :24:29.that! I will be with you in a second. Good morning. My point is
:24:30. > :24:33.like the professor said that Pakistan is also a state made on a
:24:34. > :24:38.religious racist anti-Zionism as being against the state of saying
:24:39. > :24:44.that if you are against the state of Islam, are you against Islam as
:24:45. > :24:48.well? If you are against Israel you are supposed to be anti-Semitic so
:24:49. > :24:50.if you are against the state of Pakistan would that make you
:24:51. > :24:56.anti-Islamic? APPLAUSE
:24:57. > :25:03.One well-known Muslim commentator in 20 wrote a very interesting article,
:25:04. > :25:06.people said it was very brave -- in 2012, saying that conspiracy
:25:07. > :25:14.theories and anti-Semitism were rife in the Muslim community. He said
:25:15. > :25:21.that anti-Semitism was the Muslim community's "Dirty little secret". I
:25:22. > :25:26.don't think it is a dirty secret. Why did he say it? He felt the need
:25:27. > :25:31.to write the article, you must ask him why. I don't think he documents
:25:32. > :25:35.the exact reason why. I want to come back to a couple of points regarding
:25:36. > :25:42.anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. What I have seen is people saying, oh you
:25:43. > :25:46.only talk about Israel, as if we never talk about Assad or other
:25:47. > :25:51.human rights abuses. I agree with Louise on one thing, Israel does
:25:52. > :25:54.want peace, it is just that we are spelling it wrong that, they want a
:25:55. > :26:03.piece of theirs and abuse of that! -- they want a piece of this and a
:26:04. > :26:07.piece of that! One more, I know that you are not allowed a platform
:26:08. > :26:12.because of your views on anti-Zionism, you are not around
:26:13. > :26:17.when this was stated, your organisation published material
:26:18. > :26:19.promoting the idea of a worldwide Zionist conspiracy, information
:26:20. > :26:27.which originally came from Holocaust denial website. As your organisation
:26:28. > :26:30.cleaned up your act? I will answer that but I have found that when it
:26:31. > :26:36.comes to defending the indefensible, as with Israel's advocates, they
:26:37. > :26:42.have to go on the defensive. Regarding those things, I would
:26:43. > :26:46.recommend people go on the website to look at the rebuttals to these
:26:47. > :26:52.smears. They offer these periods things. As an activist, on the
:26:53. > :26:57.Palestinian issue, especially as a Muslim when it is nothing to do with
:26:58. > :27:02.the abuse of human beings, it is because they hate Jews. A caricature
:27:03. > :27:07.and it is wrong and it stops people having an adult conversation about
:27:08. > :27:11.Israel occupying Palestine. The first time I came on this show
:27:12. > :27:16.social media comments afterwards attacked me because of the policies
:27:17. > :27:19.of the state of Israel. Being anti-Semitic isn't popular these
:27:20. > :27:23.days so they attacked me in a different way, how can I claim to
:27:24. > :27:30.want all people to get on together, how can I say that? You are saying
:27:31. > :27:42.they disagreed with you? They used Israel to have a go at me. I was
:27:43. > :27:47.attacked because I am a religious Jew, the Bible and Islam is in
:27:48. > :27:53.portage to me, Genesis, when God told Abraham to go, the Coram also
:27:54. > :28:04.has that. Fisher you should be afraid of the Christian Zionists.
:28:05. > :28:14.The far right in Europe, he supports Israel but he hates Jews! Why was I
:28:15. > :28:23.attacked? Nick Griffin supports Israel but he opposes Jews! Because
:28:24. > :28:29.the Jews members of every nation, not just one nation. We are not a
:28:30. > :28:37.nation! We are a nation, the nation of Israel! The nation of Israel.
:28:38. > :28:42.Pick up that point. Israel is the one Jewish state in the world, the
:28:43. > :28:45.only one attacked by the human rights Council, it's just done
:28:46. > :28:49.something ridiculous, it doesn't have resolutions against any other
:28:50. > :28:54.country but recently it has a resolution about the way Israel
:28:55. > :28:56.treats women. As far as Israel is concerned and women there is no
:28:57. > :29:02.better place in the Middle East for women and Israel. And some of the
:29:03. > :29:08.things that have been said so offensive. Israel is not a set of
:29:09. > :29:20.state, not apartheid state. -- not a subtler state. Jews state. It was
:29:21. > :29:28.given legitimacy by the United Nations. You can be there and next
:29:29. > :29:37.to an Arab village. Stop talking utter rubbish! Tony, hold on. Joy,
:29:38. > :29:43.Tony. Let me put the point that I put to Angela, who will have another
:29:44. > :29:49.chance, don't worry, this Benjamin Netanyahu claws come he wanted to
:29:50. > :29:54.pass a law... I totally disagree with that. Let me remind you, he
:29:55. > :30:00.said it should be the nation state of one people only, the Jewish
:30:01. > :30:04.people and no other people. Do you consider that counter-productive? I
:30:05. > :30:11.oppose it 100% and every Israeli will oppose it and every decent Jew.
:30:12. > :30:17.It is a Jewish state with over 1 million Arabs want to stay there.
:30:18. > :30:30.Can I just finish my point? Everyone, be quiet. Joy?
:30:31. > :30:37.I feel like the speaker in the House of Commons. I will calm down
:30:38. > :30:40.completely and I will say one thing, the Israeli Arabs, when there was
:30:41. > :30:47.the possibility of the transfer of land, in 2,000 back to delete the
:30:48. > :30:53.year 2000, 90 7% of the land -- in the year 2000, ask any Israeli Arab
:30:54. > :30:57.if they preferred to live in Israel or the state of Palestine or
:30:58. > :31:05.elsewhere and they will find that they want the state of Israel. It is
:31:06. > :31:12.the Palestinian authority... Daphna, you are Jewish. I am an atheist you
:31:13. > :31:19.and Israeli and anti-Zionism. Is anti-Zionism, can it straight into
:31:20. > :31:29.anti-Semitism? The two are not mutually exclusive but they are very
:31:30. > :31:33.different things. One can be Anti-Semitic and add anti-Zionism to
:31:34. > :31:38.the basket. But anti-Zionism is a question of regime and we have a
:31:39. > :31:42.right to resent the very regime of Israel, not specific politics but
:31:43. > :31:46.the idea of the Jewish state, which I find abhorrent. This is akin to a
:31:47. > :31:51.British person wanting to turn Britain into a republic. This is not
:31:52. > :31:55.constitutional change. It is not about the right for Israel to exist
:31:56. > :32:01.or the right of the Israeli people to exist. If you were to wave your
:32:02. > :32:07.magic wand and redraw the map, what would it look like? I would have one
:32:08. > :32:11.thing as a whole state with a democracy and all of its inhabitants
:32:12. > :32:19.as citizens. It is not an Anti-Semitic idea. Angela, is that
:32:20. > :32:24.an Anti-Semitic idea? One state, everybody together, in a democracy?
:32:25. > :32:35.The Jews were conferred a Jewish homeland. By whom? Balfour, the
:32:36. > :32:41.anti-Semite. He didn't want the Jews here, so he said go there! Let's
:32:42. > :32:44.listen to Angela. Imagine you are listening on the radio and you're
:32:45. > :32:48.listening to what she has got to say. Tony, you would probably be
:32:49. > :32:55.shouting at the radio. Angela, carry on. It is the kind of hysteria that
:32:56. > :32:59.knuckles any attempts to have a sensible debate. It doesn't matter
:33:00. > :33:09.what the debate is, you want to knuckle freedom of expression. Wait,
:33:10. > :33:14.less of the knuckle, finish your point. You are not alone me the
:33:15. > :33:19.freedom of expression. For those people who haven't been to Israel,
:33:20. > :33:25.who haven't been to the West Bank, I have family on the West Bank, I have
:33:26. > :33:33.been to the checkpoint... They are colonising it! Stop shouting and
:33:34. > :33:38.interrupting. If it carries on, I will walk out and leave you to it.
:33:39. > :33:44.The point is, what right have they got to be on the West Bank? Because
:33:45. > :33:52.the territory was acquired through war, through defensive actions.
:33:53. > :34:01.Using Geneva conventions do occupied territory. It is acquired! All I was
:34:02. > :34:06.going to say is my late mother fell ill while she was in Israel, to see
:34:07. > :34:09.family that lived there. Her life was saved by any Israeli Arab
:34:10. > :34:16.haematologist and other Israeli is on the medical team. There are
:34:17. > :34:19.Israeli Arabs who live very happily under Israeli Jewish diction. The
:34:20. > :34:40.Palestinian authority and Hamas subjugate the people of Gaza and use
:34:41. > :34:44.them as a tool. ALL SHOUTING. Be quiet. Professor, you have put
:34:45. > :34:50.yourself very much on my list. I won't tell you what the list is.
:34:51. > :34:53.Bishop Stephen Lowe. Jesus wept over Jerusalem and this conversation
:34:54. > :34:58.months to make me weep because neither side is communicating with
:34:59. > :35:01.the other -- makes me want to weep. They are not listening to each
:35:02. > :35:05.other, they are actually stuck in their own worlds and I find that
:35:06. > :35:10.quite frightening, really, because if you want to get inside a box and
:35:11. > :35:18.can't see out of the box, you don't communicate. I feel they are into
:35:19. > :35:25.different boxes. Can I just finished please, now, well. What I want to
:35:26. > :35:30.say is I personally believe passionately in the existence of
:35:31. > :35:36.Israel as a place for the Jewish people to find their homeland, but I
:35:37. > :35:39.have found it very difficult, as a Christian, to find myself defending
:35:40. > :35:43.that position and yet being accused of being Anti-Semitic when I have
:35:44. > :35:50.criticised the Israeli government over some of the things they have
:35:51. > :35:55.done. Have you been criticised? I have been taken to one side and
:35:56. > :35:58.spoken to very seriously. Hubei? By people with connections in the
:35:59. > :36:06.Jewish community in the city of Manchester. -- who buy? So do you
:36:07. > :36:11.think it devalues the term anti-Semitism, to have it bandied
:36:12. > :36:15.about? It does, because I do not believe I am in any way
:36:16. > :36:20.Anti-Semitic. I have visited and been moved by the Holocaust Museum
:36:21. > :36:24.in Jerusalem, I have been there and have got to know and have many
:36:25. > :36:28.Jewish friends. It is insulting to me to be described as Anti-Semitic
:36:29. > :36:32.when I criticised the Israeli government for some of the things
:36:33. > :36:35.that they have done and we have do, in our society, draw a very clear
:36:36. > :36:42.line between the criticism of the Government, wherever it is, and
:36:43. > :36:45.prejudice against people of a particular faith and religion. And
:36:46. > :36:55.the sooner we stop doing that, the better. Welcome to our merry throng.
:36:56. > :37:02.Can I answer your question. Is anti-Zionism Anti-Semitic?
:37:03. > :37:07.Anti-Semitism is being anti-Jewish, that means hating all Jews. From an
:37:08. > :37:10.Islamic perspective, it is strictly forbidden because racism is tricky
:37:11. > :37:16.for bidding. We are all the children of Adam and Eve, all one family and
:37:17. > :37:19.to be racist towards each other is strictly forbidden. Anti-Zionism,
:37:20. > :37:24.well, Zionism is responsible for the ethnic cleansing of 800,000
:37:25. > :37:31.Palestinians from 700 villages by sheer terrorism, the terrorist
:37:32. > :37:39.groups that ethnically cleansed the land to make way for the Zionist
:37:40. > :37:49.dream. And the Jews in Arab lands? They left because... Louise Ellman!
:37:50. > :37:55.Louise Ellman, member of Parliament for Liverpool Riverside. Please can
:37:56. > :38:01.everybody stop shouting at each other across the floor. There is a
:38:02. > :38:05.serious political issue about national aspirations of Jewish
:38:06. > :38:08.people and Palestinian people that needs to be resolved by a
:38:09. > :38:13.negotiation which retains the Jewish state of Israel but also a state for
:38:14. > :38:17.all its citizens, a third of whom are not Jewish but have equal
:38:18. > :38:21.rights, and a Palestinian state, set up alongside Israel, given massive
:38:22. > :38:29.investment to make it a viable state with a good economy. But until we
:38:30. > :38:32.get to that position, we do have to find a way of talking to one another
:38:33. > :38:35.and one of the problems is to do with demonising... The reason it has
:38:36. > :38:39.not been resolved cannot be put down to only one side and we can all find
:38:40. > :38:46.full with leaders in Israel and leaders in the Palestinian
:38:47. > :38:50.authority, but -- find fault... But when it is in the continual debate
:38:51. > :38:53.only Israel that is criticised to the exclusion of the Palestinian
:38:54. > :38:57.leadership, it is starting to demonise what it is a complex and
:38:58. > :39:03.very tragic situation, so that is a problem and one of the issues. There
:39:04. > :39:09.are going to be two more comments on this debate and those comments will
:39:10. > :39:17.come from the professor and also from and I want your comment to
:39:18. > :39:24.short and concise. What is your final thought, professor? My final
:39:25. > :39:26.thought is that this onslaught, equating anti-Zionism with
:39:27. > :39:32.anti-Semitism, is an attempt to prevent us from understanding the
:39:33. > :39:37.root of the problem. The reason colonisation of the West Bank, the
:39:38. > :39:42.relatives of my colleague here, is allowed to live contrary to the
:39:43. > :39:49.Geneva conventions in occupied territories is because Zionism, from
:39:50. > :39:54.its beginnings, is a project of colonisation of Palestine and making
:39:55. > :40:00.it into a Jewish majority or exclusively Jewish state. Thank you.
:40:01. > :40:07.And I think, appropriately, a counter to that from Joy Wolfe, from
:40:08. > :40:16.the Zionist Central Council. I totally agree that Israel is about
:40:17. > :40:20.colonisation. I do not believe every anti-Zionism comment is Anti-Semitic
:40:21. > :40:25.but unfortunately, a lot of anti-Semitism is creeping in and
:40:26. > :40:35.when we get remarks like "Israel does not want peace but a piece" and
:40:36. > :40:43.I would like to see the same comments made by him scrutinise. We
:40:44. > :40:48.have talked about it today. Yes, there has been white phosphorus to
:40:49. > :40:55.light up the sky... There are not fireworks. Ed burns down on people!
:40:56. > :41:02.Excuse me! They burn children alive, how dare you justify that. You are
:41:03. > :41:07.like a Holocaust denier. You are saying she is like a Holocaust
:41:08. > :41:15.denier? Yes, exactly. You are a disgrace! Joy, I will give you ten
:41:16. > :41:20.seconds. The Palestinians have been the most misled people in history,
:41:21. > :41:22.they have had the opportunity of not being a refugee community for years
:41:23. > :41:28.and years and their leaders have failed and they have had massive
:41:29. > :41:37.amounts of money and it has not been invested properly. Thank you all
:41:38. > :41:38.very much. You are outrageous. Please.
:41:39. > :41:41.You can join in all this morning's debates by logging on
:41:42. > :41:43.to bbc.co.uk/the big questions then following the link
:41:44. > :41:46.Or you can tweet using the hashtag bbctbq
:41:47. > :41:49.Tell us what you think about our last Big Question too -
:41:50. > :42:00.Next Sunday, we're back from MediaCityUK in Salford
:42:01. > :42:02.with a special debate on the British Empire -
:42:03. > :42:06.Amongst those taking part, are the historians Charles Allen
:42:07. > :42:09.and Lawrence James and I'm sure there be a very vigorous debate
:42:10. > :42:11.between them and the columnist Owen Jones
:42:12. > :42:18.and Femi Nylander from the Rhodes Must Fall campaign,
:42:19. > :42:23.It is going to be really interesting and pretty lively, occasionally we
:42:24. > :42:25.have pretty lively debates here, so join us for that.
:42:26. > :42:28.And, if you'd like to be in the audience at a future show,
:42:29. > :42:31.email audiencetbq@mentorn.tv We're in Oxford on May 22nd for our usual
:42:32. > :42:33.live morning programme and in the afternoon we're recording
:42:34. > :42:36.a special asking "Did man create God?"
:42:37. > :42:39.Then we're in Uxbridge on June 5th for the final two shows
:42:40. > :43:02.It's World Laughter Day! Where would you be without a laugh? Here.
:43:03. > :43:04.It's designed to foster brotherhood and friendship
:43:05. > :43:08.But they're not laughing in Leamington Spa, where a local vicar
:43:09. > :43:10.has been pilloried for wanting to raise money by showing
:43:11. > :43:15.In Britain, we have a long tradition of taking the mickey out of religion
:43:16. > :43:18.from Anthony Trollope's ghastly Mr Slope to Father Ted,
:43:19. > :43:20.clerics have always been good for a laugh.
:43:21. > :43:22.But poking fun at some religions can be life-threatening,
:43:23. > :43:25.as we have seen in Pakistan with its blasphemy laws,
:43:26. > :43:28.or France and Denmark over cartoons of Muhammed,
:43:29. > :43:30.or France and Denmark over cartoons of Muhammad,
:43:31. > :43:34.Does laughing at something necessarily equate with mockery?
:43:35. > :43:37.Or can we be fondest of the people who can jolly us along,
:43:38. > :43:39.rather than those who rely on instilling fear and
:43:40. > :44:01.Isma Almas, hello. Sorry, I am a bit discombobulated. Comedian and
:44:02. > :44:08.Muslim. Now, there is a great tradition in our culture of
:44:09. > :44:10.self-mockery and ribbing. Some people are uncomfortable with
:44:11. > :44:16.self-mockery, is that a cultural thing? I think some people are and I
:44:17. > :44:22.think what has happened as well is that for a lot of people, religion
:44:23. > :44:26.and culture have become enmeshed and it is part of their identity, so it
:44:27. > :44:30.is quite hard to separate the two. So when you end up laughing about
:44:31. > :44:35.one, people can be offended because they see it as an attack on their
:44:36. > :44:38.beliefs. Personally, I believe we should be able to laugh about
:44:39. > :44:44.religion, we should be able to joke about religion. It is no different
:44:45. > :44:49.to people's political beliefs. We joke about them, we should be able
:44:50. > :44:54.to joke about religion as well. So in the right context, everything is
:44:55. > :44:56.OK? Yes, there is a line and if it crosses the line and goes into
:44:57. > :45:02.inciting hatred, that is a completely different matter.
:45:03. > :45:05.Sometimes Sattar, though, I don't want to make it about Charlie Hebdo,
:45:06. > :45:12.but sometimes satire crosses the line and we have a great tradition
:45:13. > :45:18.in this country about criticising beliefs and ideas and some people
:45:19. > :45:22.say to object to that is a cultural imposition. But when you work, when
:45:23. > :45:27.you are playing the clubs, what sort of gags do you do about religion? I
:45:28. > :45:33.do it about culture, so for me, it is about people's interpretation of
:45:34. > :45:42.religion that are often cultural issues. The burqa, or something?
:45:43. > :45:46.Yes, and they are passed off as religion when it is a cultural
:45:47. > :45:49.issue. In terms of satire and Charlie Hebdo cartoons, I think the
:45:50. > :45:54.people that attacked and committed the murders and the acts of
:45:55. > :46:00.terrorism there, they actually created far more damage to Islam
:46:01. > :46:04.than the actual cartoons and the cartoons were not just depicting
:46:05. > :46:12.Muhammad and Allah. Years ago, Charlie Hebdo had the Pope holding a
:46:13. > :46:17.condom over his head... We have had that and we will do it again, but
:46:18. > :46:23.what about the burqa and things, you say it is cultural. What kind of
:46:24. > :46:29.stuff... I am asking you to do your act, but give us an idea. We could
:46:30. > :46:30.blinking well do with it! What kind of stuff would you do about the
:46:31. > :46:41.burqa? Stuff about wearing it, and my dad
:46:42. > :46:46.not recognising me when I take it off!
:46:47. > :46:50.LAUGHTER Not much wonder! Again, it is, for a
:46:51. > :46:59.lot of people, for comedians, we talk about what we know, our
:47:00. > :47:03.culture, our lives. For me, being a British Pakistani Muslim person,
:47:04. > :47:08.like comedy that I do is very much part of my identity and I have an
:47:09. > :47:13.absolute right to joke about what I want to. People have freedom to
:47:14. > :47:19.practice, to worship, I have freedom of speech.
:47:20. > :47:24.APPLAUSE Welcome back, what about jokes about
:47:25. > :47:32.the burqa and the niqab, acceptable to you? As a rule every nation has
:47:33. > :47:35.their own line, God, his Prophet and his books, that is a red line and if
:47:36. > :47:40.you make fun of that we will be offended. People are offended by a
:47:41. > :47:47.lot of things, are jokes about the niqab OK? It does not fall into
:47:48. > :47:52.those categories, I just laughed at that joke just now. I did not find
:47:53. > :47:57.that offensive at all. Would the Prophet Muhammad have had a good
:47:58. > :48:02.sense of humour? I have a book at home and I very much enjoy reading
:48:03. > :48:06.it, very interesting and he seems to smile a lot although he wasn't one
:48:07. > :48:12.for the belly loss. Keen he had a great sense of humour. Can you give
:48:13. > :48:18.some examples? One out in the lady in her 60s came to him and said,
:48:19. > :48:23.prophet, can I go to heaven? And he said, no, only young women can go to
:48:24. > :48:31.heaven. She became very upset. And he said every woman will be a young
:48:32. > :48:36.woman when she goes to heaven. It is a wry comment. If he was leader of
:48:37. > :48:39.people he would have hatched to have had it because it is a great
:48:40. > :48:46.community give tool so he will have to have had a sense of humour. --
:48:47. > :48:50.great negative tool. Absolutely, every nation has its red lines. For
:48:51. > :48:53.example I would never make a joke about the Holocaust. It would be
:48:54. > :48:59.grossly offensive to Jewish people. I would never joke about black
:49:00. > :49:04.slavery, that would be offensive to black people. So there are areas for
:49:05. > :49:10.all nations. What about the blasphemy laws in Pakistan, is a
:49:11. > :49:22.blasphemy law ever justified in any country? Every country has their own
:49:23. > :49:29.local areas. Would you support a blasphemy law in any country across
:49:30. > :49:33.the world? Is it legitimate? If it is going to undermine the fabric of
:49:34. > :49:39.society and turn one race against another, and make any race feel
:49:40. > :49:53.undermined then certainly we should avoid this type of things. It is
:49:54. > :50:01.2016. You had your hand up about the blasphemy law. I didn't, actually! I
:50:02. > :50:10.saw your eyes twinkling! They were twinkling. Can I tell a joke? I am
:50:11. > :50:14.opposed to blasphemy laws because I think we have an innate sense of
:50:15. > :50:20.freedom of speech, a right to freedom of speech. The problem is
:50:21. > :50:25.with people who experience or say they are offended, it is very much
:50:26. > :50:31.in their own culture and in an minds. And that should not restrict
:50:32. > :50:36.the rest of us, in my view. If you don't like it, don't watch it.
:50:37. > :50:40.Somebody once said that the blasphemy law would have a
:50:41. > :50:46.victimless crime. Did Jesus have a sense of humour? He enjoyed parties
:50:47. > :50:50.big-time. And I can't believe this is a party without laughter. Also
:50:51. > :50:55.there are aspects of religion the job wonderfully idiosyncratic,
:50:56. > :50:59.funny, numerous, and deserves our time. And I often think going down
:51:00. > :51:03.one of these big processions down the aisle of the cathedral I wish
:51:04. > :51:07.they would start doing the Congo and the organist would strike up because
:51:08. > :51:13.there is a sense of the bizarre about it and some of the things we
:51:14. > :51:18.were sometimes! Letter and the things we wear. The General Synod
:51:19. > :51:24.sometimes deserves humour. With it we will all shrivel and shrivelled
:51:25. > :51:36.Christians are horrible. -- without it we will all shrivel. Do you want
:51:37. > :51:39.to names names! The apes even laugh. Bishop Desmond Tutu and never
:51:40. > :51:46.stopped laughing and he is able to convey something of his Christian
:51:47. > :51:51.faith because he loves so much. Any jokes in the Bible? They weren't
:51:52. > :51:55.very good at jokes in the Bible! The old Testament as far as I know
:51:56. > :52:02.regards laughter as sinful. The first psalm equates jokers, with the
:52:03. > :52:11.wicked and the sinful. If you look at the first psalm, happy is the man
:52:12. > :52:17.who has not gone in the ways of the wicked and who is not stored on the
:52:18. > :52:26.path of the Senate nor sativus scoffers. -- who is not stored on
:52:27. > :52:37.the path of the sinner. SHOUTING
:52:38. > :52:41.It's started a game! Tony. Go on. I will tell a Jewish joke. It probably
:52:42. > :52:48.applies to my Jewish comrades over there. There was a child, brought
:52:49. > :52:54.before a court, accused of murder of both of his parents. He fell on the
:52:55. > :53:04.mercy of the Court and said, please do not sentence me to death because
:53:05. > :53:11.I am now an orphan! Nobody laughed. The thing about Jewish humour is...
:53:12. > :53:15.Can I do a Jewish joke, I love Larry David. You know the scene in the
:53:16. > :53:20.Woody Allen film where his family are all Hasidic Jews? If that came
:53:21. > :53:24.from someone else... It is what you said at the beginning, gentle
:53:25. > :53:28.humour, observing things, Victoria wood who we are sad to have lost,
:53:29. > :53:32.she never sneered, she was never cruel. She looked at the
:53:33. > :53:40.idiosyncrasies of life. Jewish is self-deprecating. Jackie Mason said
:53:41. > :53:43.nobody ever crossed the road when they saw four accountants walking
:53:44. > :54:01.towards them. But is it. We are not violent race. Tony, a Christian
:54:02. > :54:06.comedian... Thank you. Do you tell gags in church? What goes on. I do
:54:07. > :54:10.shows in comedy clubs and also do shows in churches and other places.
:54:11. > :54:18.One thing humour does quite well is release tension. So we definitely
:54:19. > :54:21.need a joke today! Have you got on? No!
:54:22. > :54:27.LAUGHTER One thing I do, we've been doing
:54:28. > :54:33.some interfaith comedy shows with my friend. Different comedians from
:54:34. > :54:37.different faith groups coming together and talking about their own
:54:38. > :54:40.traditions and experience and looking at those idiosyncratic.
:54:41. > :54:44.There is something about that comment humanity that binds us
:54:45. > :54:47.together. It's one of the beauties of humour. I think religious
:54:48. > :54:57.extremism is marked by a complete lack of humour. Isner if you look at
:54:58. > :55:04.all extremes you do sometimes detect a sense of humour failure, don't we,
:55:05. > :55:09.Daphna? We have to laugh at ourselves. Jews have a great history
:55:10. > :55:13.and tradition of humour. As an Israeli comedian in the UK I
:55:14. > :55:17.sometimes feel, however difficult telling jokes about being a Jew
:55:18. > :55:22.because I don't feel that I massively identify, not part of this
:55:23. > :55:27.community in any way. My identity is Israeli, Middle Eastern. I have very
:55:28. > :55:33.few jokes which have to do with being Jewish. But this week when I
:55:34. > :55:37.heard Ken Livingstone said something idiotic if maybe not anti-Semitic,
:55:38. > :55:41.remembered this old joke, the Jews come to the rabbi and they are in a
:55:42. > :55:47.panic and they say, the Cossacks are coming. The rabbi said, what are
:55:48. > :55:51.they doing? The Jews say they are raping and looting and pillaging.
:55:52. > :56:00.And rabbi says, oh, the usual, I thought they had come up with
:56:01. > :56:05.something new! Can I just ask a question of Isma Almas, as a female
:56:06. > :56:10.doesn't comedian how are you viewed by your own community, when I first
:56:11. > :56:13.saw you on a show I wondered how your community reacted and how you
:56:14. > :56:18.ask a woman are accepted as a comedian. In terms of my committee,
:56:19. > :56:28.they don't know. LAUGHTER
:56:29. > :56:32.I am sure anyone here who has spoken in public, sometimes you see your
:56:33. > :56:41.audience and you have to cut your cloth. You do, when you see people
:56:42. > :56:45.walking in you can tell what kind of audience they will be producing I
:56:46. > :56:49.will have to delete some of these jokes and put in some milder ones.
:56:50. > :56:55.One interesting thing about Islam and comedy is that comedy is
:56:56. > :57:00.encouraged although there is a fine line and you can't have stuff that
:57:01. > :57:04.is insulting or blasphemous which sadly is most of my material!
:57:05. > :57:11.LAUGHTER Raza, do you have a laugh at the
:57:12. > :57:17.office? Do tears roll down your face? When dealing with politics you
:57:18. > :57:24.are always laughing especially when watching Prime Minister's Questions.
:57:25. > :57:28.The thing that you alluded to, people take offence at different
:57:29. > :57:32.things. You depend on your audience, how you do stuff, you can't just say
:57:33. > :57:37.that you got a friend, there is an element of that, you will offend. To
:57:38. > :57:42.some people on the extremes just need to explore their common sense
:57:43. > :57:45.of humanity? And chill out, is that the word you'd use? If they would
:57:46. > :57:53.show that they wouldn't be that crazy. There's a lot of talk in the
:57:54. > :57:57.world comedy about freedom of speech. People say that you can't
:57:58. > :58:00.say anything any more, women get offended, religious people get
:58:01. > :58:03.offended. I think it is an odd summer to question of people being
:58:04. > :58:09.offended, if you can stand behind what you say you don't mind if
:58:10. > :58:12.people are offended. I am offensive to some people but when I am I want
:58:13. > :58:17.to make the statement and I stand by what I say. Being offensive to the
:58:18. > :58:22.sake of it is not the point. Think the point is not being offended if
:58:23. > :58:29.you make a racist joke, I discovered you want to be a misogynist. Does
:58:30. > :58:36.anyone remember the Dave Allen TV show? Would he get away with that?
:58:37. > :58:38.He was very funny! We are out of time, my name is Nicky Campbell,
:58:39. > :58:40.good night! As always, the debates will continue
:58:41. > :58:48.online and on Twitter. Good afternoon and make your God go
:58:49. > :58:51.with you. The British Empire next week, thank you -- may your God go
:58:52. > :58:57.with you.