:00:00. > :00:00.Today on The Big Questions: Extremist views that may also
:00:07. > :00:25.And abortion - should it be completely decriminalised?
:00:26. > :00:32.Today we're live from Wychwood School in Oxford.
:00:33. > :00:35.Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.
:00:36. > :00:43.In Wednesday's Queen's Speech, the government promised another raft
:00:44. > :00:44.of legislation to "prevent radicalisation, tackle
:00:45. > :00:53.extremism in all its forms, and promote community integration."
:00:54. > :00:56.So far, the government's PREVENT strategy has been most often accused
:00:57. > :00:58.of targeting Muslims and effectively discriminating against
:00:59. > :01:06.Now they're planning to intervene when local councils
:01:07. > :01:09.aren't doing enough to counter extremism; to close unregulated
:01:10. > :01:11.Madrassa and religious schools; and bring in ASBO style banning
:01:12. > :01:14.orders for those described as "key extremist influencers".
:01:15. > :01:17.So the list of those who could now be targeted may lengthen from people
:01:18. > :01:20.who actually do bad things to people who merely think bad things.
:01:21. > :01:22.And the government's definition of "peddling hatred" could be
:01:23. > :01:24.someone else's deeply held religious belief.
:01:25. > :01:38.Is countering extremism compatible with freedom of religion?
:01:39. > :01:46.Douglas Murray, associate director of the Henry Jackson Society, aren't
:01:47. > :01:52.you a keen extremist influence? You have been so critical of Islam, you
:01:53. > :01:57.are a neo-con hate preacher, aren't you, some of the things you have
:01:58. > :02:02.said? I suppose some very extreme people might claim it, I would be
:02:03. > :02:07.surprised if you could hold it up. I can answer the question we started
:02:08. > :02:13.with... You have said things in the past, conditions for Muslims in
:02:14. > :02:16.Europe must be made harder. I have always been of a view that it is
:02:17. > :02:21.unwise to have immigration at the rate it has happened in recent
:02:22. > :02:27.years. And I think it is a very unwise thing to do what Chancellor
:02:28. > :02:30.Merkel has done in the last year, to have immigration effectively at such
:02:31. > :02:37.a speed that you can't have an integrated society. That is what we
:02:38. > :02:43.are seeing, I would argue, the impact of across Europe at the
:02:44. > :02:48.moment. It is a very great concern. What the government is trying to do
:02:49. > :02:52.elsewhere is to make up, to catch up with the effects of its immigration
:02:53. > :02:57.policy. Because if you have, as Germany has now, an extra 2% of your
:02:58. > :03:01.population coming into the country every year, I would argue you don't
:03:02. > :03:12.have a hope of having a cohesive society. It is that I can assure you
:03:13. > :03:19.that if any other minority groups within a society had a constant
:03:20. > :03:27.record of producing a minority within it, a minority that is
:03:28. > :03:31.significant, people who blow up Chu, buses, or fly planes into the twin
:03:32. > :03:35.towers, or as happened three years ago today, murder a soldier on the
:03:36. > :03:38.streets of London, decapitate him in broad daylight for being a member of
:03:39. > :03:42.the British Army, I would say you would say that about any other
:03:43. > :03:48.group. You would be deeply concerned about any group in society that had
:03:49. > :03:51.that, even as it is a very distinct minority. Let me just remind you of
:03:52. > :03:56.one of the fact while you have got me onto it. A lot of other
:03:57. > :04:03.minorities I think rightfully are concerned about this. As a gay man,
:04:04. > :04:06.it doesn't enormously Glesney that as a poll fronted by Trevor Phillips
:04:07. > :04:10.the other week showed the majority of Muslims in the UK want
:04:11. > :04:15.homosexuality to be made illegal. Not on board with gay marriage, not
:04:16. > :04:20.entirely hot with civil partnerships, but they want
:04:21. > :04:23.homosexuality to be made illegal. So I think this raises all sorts of
:04:24. > :04:27.questions and I think they are very legitimate questions to be raised,
:04:28. > :04:35.and in my view they are not raised often enough. Wider you believe that
:04:36. > :04:41.these measures could well stymie and circumscribed a religious belief,
:04:42. > :04:52.and make people wary of expressing those sincerely held religious
:04:53. > :04:57.beliefs? Because the Prevent campaign is built on fear. It is a
:04:58. > :05:05.contract that has been manufactured by the state. We know it when we see
:05:06. > :05:11.it, in those atrocities. As you say you know it when we see it, that
:05:12. > :05:17.usually implies a racialised implantation of that construct. When
:05:18. > :05:21.people like Douglas Murray, and you don't have to be an extremist to
:05:22. > :05:24.believe that Douglas Murray holds very strong views, would not
:05:25. > :05:29.necessarily think he is an extremist, whereas we are one step
:05:30. > :05:32.away now from front-line workers at universities and schools getting the
:05:33. > :05:36.ruler out and measuring the beard of theirs June to see if they are
:05:37. > :05:47.terrorists or radicals. More or less, because the Prevent strategy,
:05:48. > :05:51.they view the taking up of the headscarf or the growing of the
:05:52. > :05:56.beard or conversion to Islam for example as being the indicators that
:05:57. > :06:06.should be used by members of civil society to decide who is a future
:06:07. > :06:10.terrorist. Where does it state that? These are the indicators that are
:06:11. > :06:15.included in the Association of Chief Police Officers. If you let me
:06:16. > :06:19.finish and listen, all I am saying is if you have a look at the
:06:20. > :06:24.Association of Chief Police Officers channel and guided documentation, it
:06:25. > :06:28.clearly states that conversion to Islam is an indicator. I have read
:06:29. > :06:35.the Prevent strategy and nowhere does it say what you have said. Let
:06:36. > :06:42.him finish. You will have another chance. I have read the Prevent
:06:43. > :06:49.strategy, and it does not talk about what you are saying. Now you are not
:06:50. > :06:53.letting me finish. It is ironic you spoke about fear, but this is the
:06:54. > :06:56.mongering, and this is one of the biggest problems we have.
:06:57. > :07:00.Individuals like yourself who have had a bad experience, no doubt, but
:07:01. > :07:06.my problem with your position is not the practical implications of
:07:07. > :07:09.Prevent, there are areas that need to be revisited and we need to work
:07:10. > :07:15.better than what we have, but your argument against the Prevent
:07:16. > :07:20.strategy is in principle, and that is a problem. Because what that
:07:21. > :07:26.applies is extremism denial, and that is a big problem. I am not
:07:27. > :07:33.denying anything, define the terms you are trying to counter. You can't
:07:34. > :07:37.define it. What we should not be fearful of is not the Prevent
:07:38. > :07:39.strategy, but individuals who are becoming radicalised and going
:07:40. > :07:47.across the border and joining an extremist group. Adam Deen, one of
:07:48. > :07:51.the Prevent definitions of extremism is vocal and active opposition to
:07:52. > :08:00.British values. Vocal opposition, does that not worry you? Firstly, in
:08:01. > :08:03.terms of the new bill looking to be introduced, I am dead against that,
:08:04. > :08:07.the idea of banning orders, banning hate preachers come I think that is
:08:08. > :08:13.completely the wrong way to go about things. In taking on our enemies, in
:08:14. > :08:23.refusing our enemies, we should not become or -- -- surely that is what
:08:24. > :08:28.you are doing, the moment you start to use the law against the opinions
:08:29. > :08:32.you amusing from a free society into an unfree society. Since the first
:08:33. > :08:35.Queen Victoria said I do not wish to make windows into men's souls. You
:08:36. > :08:40.can be punished for you do, not for what you think or what you say,
:08:41. > :08:43.unless it is incitement to crime. As long as you maintain that boundary,
:08:44. > :08:47.you are a free country. The problem with this bill, and with Mr Cameron
:08:48. > :08:50.ever since his speech in the United Nations, is that he doesn't
:08:51. > :08:54.understand this distinction, doesn't even understand it is important, and
:08:55. > :09:00.continues to press away with this nonsense. I am in the eyes of many
:09:01. > :09:03.people and chemist, simply by holding their views by and large my
:09:04. > :09:08.parents generation upheld, those views have become extreme. It is
:09:09. > :09:11.simply a term to define your opponents as people who need to be
:09:12. > :09:20.restricted and quite possibly expunged and imprisoned. APPLAUSE
:09:21. > :09:23.There is the thing about Western imperialism and this notion of
:09:24. > :09:28.imperialism, but it is absurd because the very notion of extremism
:09:29. > :09:33.exists within the Islamic tradition. For centuries, the extremist
:09:34. > :09:36.organisations have reared their ugly heads, and scholars throughout the
:09:37. > :09:40.century have debated one another on extremism, so it is not something
:09:41. > :09:46.that is outside of Islam. It exists within the Muslim community. Let me
:09:47. > :09:52.through that to Mohammed Khaliel. The Crusaders taking it back a year
:09:53. > :09:59.ago, we did the debate on Lee Rigby, if somebody is arguing for the
:10:00. > :10:06.strict enforcement of sharia law, or gender discrimination, teaching kids
:10:07. > :10:11.gays are condemned to hell, adulterers stoned, aren't those
:10:12. > :10:21.extremist values, yes or no? Firstly you just mentioned Prevent, I am the
:10:22. > :10:24.Cowan prevent lead, if you think a three-year-old can be criminalised
:10:25. > :10:28.and searched at every port when they grow, you need to look at this
:10:29. > :10:33.policy again. Number two, it is a policy classed as toxic. Speak to
:10:34. > :10:37.the community and you will see it is the most toxic brand. Mohammed, let
:10:38. > :10:43.me try again if I can. Arguing for the strict involvement of sharia
:10:44. > :10:47.law, the caliphate is an ideal society, gays are going to hell,
:10:48. > :10:53.adulterers being stoned. Are they extremist values? These are not
:10:54. > :10:59.views by people held in this country. We have people preaching a
:11:00. > :11:04.lot of hatred and poison against Muslims, give me one case, even in
:11:05. > :11:08.Muslim countries, where they practice sharia law, where they go
:11:09. > :11:12.as a routine, most Muslim countries do not do the death penalty, they do
:11:13. > :11:15.not do the stoning, all of these things. This is most Muslim
:11:16. > :11:21.countries that are supposed to run under sharia law. It shouldn't be
:11:22. > :11:36.necessary to have to shoot this down, but let me do it. Sunni, Shia,
:11:37. > :11:44.the most important distinctions, ahead and crucify people. The Sydney
:11:45. > :11:56.house of Saudi Arabia did not want this Mantella. Let's -- the Sunni.
:11:57. > :11:59.The most important Shia country is Iran, you will be hanged from a
:12:00. > :12:04.crane if you are an adulterer, so please let us not have this stupid
:12:05. > :12:07.cover because we are cleverer than we think you are. Everyone on this
:12:08. > :12:11.country can look at the internet and read articles. You cannot cover that
:12:12. > :12:15.over, it is fact, it is what is going on, it is what Isis is
:12:16. > :12:20.currently tried to do in the territories it controls. It doesn't
:12:21. > :12:24.come from nowhere. A great deal would be improved in this country if
:12:25. > :12:28.people like you came into studios like this and admitted that there is
:12:29. > :12:31.a problem, and admitted that he wanted to join in finding a solution
:12:32. > :12:38.to that problem, instead of trying to pretend that the problem doesn't
:12:39. > :12:42.exist. APPLAUSE Are those views very conservative
:12:43. > :12:52.orthodox views, please listen to the question. What about conservative
:12:53. > :13:00.religious views, are you worried that there is a situation where
:13:01. > :13:06.people will be afraid to hold those conservative orthodox views? Yes,
:13:07. > :13:12.because they are applicable to many other religious communities, and
:13:13. > :13:14.what the event strategy does is largely marginalises and restricts
:13:15. > :13:18.these discussions and debates like they are only held within the Muslim
:13:19. > :13:22.community. That is discrimination, and it is very important to note
:13:23. > :13:25.that the counter extremism bill Adam is talking about and is in favour
:13:26. > :13:31.because it has essentially funded his organisation he is representing
:13:32. > :13:35.today, Adam, if you let me finish, 93% of your funding in 2009-10 came
:13:36. > :13:39.from the Home Office and the Foreign Office, so the fact you are here as
:13:40. > :13:45.an echo chamber the government policy will not surprise anyone. If
:13:46. > :13:49.you let me finish now, it is very important for your viewers and
:13:50. > :13:55.listeners to recognise the evidence that this policy is based upon
:13:56. > :14:01.Sibley does not stack up. It is nonscientific, because there is no
:14:02. > :14:05.empirical evidence that says an extreme form of Islamic ideology is
:14:06. > :14:10.the cause of terrorism. Look at the work of Martha Crenshaw, all of
:14:11. > :14:12.these other studies that have been done on it, and they are pulling
:14:13. > :14:25.faces now because they can't come back at this. Wait a minute, Peter,
:14:26. > :14:29.in a second. You say they can't come back, I am going to let them. Then
:14:30. > :14:32.you mentioned as well other religions, and I will come to you,
:14:33. > :14:40.Linda, on this, because you may feel some of your views would be
:14:41. > :14:44.marginalised and found upon. Firstly, Prevent is not about
:14:45. > :14:50.dealing with social conservatism, it is about dealing with extremism that
:14:51. > :14:53.could potentially lead to violence. When I train teachers on Cowan
:14:54. > :14:54.prevent, I make it very clear that we should not conflict extremism
:14:55. > :15:04.with social conservatism. In practice it happens. Hold on a
:15:05. > :15:10.minute. What is extremism? It is your brand of extremism. In terms of
:15:11. > :15:18.there is no empirical evidence, this is just garbage. Yes, because
:15:19. > :15:25.evidence is garbage, according to the Quilliam Foundation. Let me try
:15:26. > :15:31.again. This link, it is garbage. This is an extreme red herring. You
:15:32. > :15:38.had about 90 seconds. Afford him the courtesy of giving him some time as
:15:39. > :15:45.well. When an Isis soldier beheads one of its captives and shouts
:15:46. > :15:50."Allahu Akbar", why should we not doubt that that person is motivated
:15:51. > :15:56.by a pernicious reading of Islam? What I am saying... This is a really
:15:57. > :16:05.u've raised. # A study by the centre of religion
:16:06. > :16:12.and geopolitics, 100 jihadis were surveyed and over 50% of them had
:16:13. > :16:18.training before their extremism. So it is garbage...
:16:19. > :16:21.ALL TALK AT ONCE What about orthodox conservative
:16:22. > :16:25.Christians. You raised this point, Rizwan, what about people of your
:16:26. > :16:28.ilk who are worried about this legislation because what you want to
:16:29. > :16:33.say and believe may be curtailed. Yes, Welsh very worried. What
:16:34. > :16:38.aspects of your faith are you worried that people will point at
:16:39. > :16:42.and say, that is extreme in At the moment various points of the Bible
:16:43. > :16:49.where people are increasingly not allowed to quote from the Bible. It
:16:50. > :16:55.is an obvious one, people who hold deeply held religious views about
:16:56. > :17:00.human sexuality will quote something from Leviticus or whatever. David
:17:01. > :17:09.Cameron said explicitly that these counter extremism measures are going
:17:10. > :17:13.to be used to combat violent and non-violent expressions of
:17:14. > :17:20.extremism. Just enlighten any viewers who might not know what
:17:21. > :17:24.Leviticus says. There are various verses that say that it is a sin for
:17:25. > :17:28.a man to lie with a man. What does it say the punishment should be?
:17:29. > :17:34.Again, the various punishments, I'm trying to remember in Leviticus. Is
:17:35. > :17:38.it stoning? I would have to check that, Nicky, because I'm not
:17:39. > :17:44.entirely sure. Douglas Murray? Leviticus does have such threats in
:17:45. > :17:49.it. It is my view that, and I think Adam Deen said the same thing,
:17:50. > :17:52.nobody should be criminalised or prosecuted for holding what is a
:17:53. > :17:57.conservative religious opinion. People can have that opinion. It is
:17:58. > :18:04.another thing if you then believe as a result of your religious opinion
:18:05. > :18:08.someone should be prosecuted. If an Anglican or somebody saying they
:18:09. > :18:11.were speaking in the name of Anglican Christianity, today in the
:18:12. > :18:14.street beheaded somebody many the name of the Christian God and we
:18:15. > :18:18.came on this programme a week from now, do you think there would be a
:18:19. > :18:23.single Anglican Christian in the country who would not say, it's
:18:24. > :18:30.disgusting, it's appalling, we abhor this? But do you think there would
:18:31. > :18:38.be anybody like the line-up of people here saying how dare you talk
:18:39. > :18:44.about our religion, how dare you talk about Anglicanism. These two
:18:45. > :18:51.people epitomise the problem. Oh, my God! Lynda can respond. You said
:18:52. > :18:53.it's racism is it? Let's address that in a second. Reverend Lynda
:18:54. > :18:58.Rose... ALL TALK AT ONCE
:18:59. > :19:04.Everybody be quiet! Everybody be quiet. The Reverend Lynda rose you
:19:05. > :19:10.want to come back on that point and I would love you to do so. Thank
:19:11. > :19:15.you. Christians, we hold deeply held religious views but we don't don
:19:16. > :19:21.suicide vests and go down Oxford Street bombing people. It's the same
:19:22. > :19:25.with the Jewish community. We don't have vigilante groups in Golders
:19:26. > :19:31.Green patrolling the streets to see if anybody is not wearing the
:19:32. > :19:38.skullcap or whatever. But Christians are not being denied the right to...
:19:39. > :19:44.Rizwan, which country is the best in the world to be a Muslim? I am not
:19:45. > :19:48.denying the fact that the UK is probably one of the best countries,
:19:49. > :19:52.I was born and raised here. All I'm saying is if you deny a group of
:19:53. > :19:55.people the chance to show their identity around Islam, you are
:19:56. > :20:00.saying that you can be a citizen but you cannot be a citizen who chooses
:20:01. > :20:07.to express their identity around Islam. I do not engage with racists,
:20:08. > :20:15.Douglas... Wait, everybody! Wait everybody! After we have first
:20:16. > :20:22.spoken to Rabia, we are going to go to the audience. I'm sorry I haven't
:20:23. > :20:25.been to you so far. That's fine. Are you generally supportive of this
:20:26. > :20:32.legislation? I am. As a Muslim woman? I do support this legislation
:20:33. > :20:36.as a Muslim woman. I think Prevent is centred around preventing and
:20:37. > :20:41.challenging extremist views. It does not curtail debate. It is not about
:20:42. > :20:44.infringing on the freedom to have religious expression or to centre
:20:45. > :20:50.your identity around your religion. It draws a line to say that if you
:20:51. > :20:55.have an opinion which makes somebody else feel unsafe, we can challenge
:20:56. > :21:00.you on it. But if it is your opinion that young people of different sexes
:21:01. > :21:04.should not mix, surely as Liberals we should be fighting for people to
:21:05. > :21:08.be able to express those religious views? Authorities what they
:21:09. > :21:14.believe, from the rooftops Absolutely, and they can express it.
:21:15. > :21:18.So why are people appointing orthodox Muslims, and Reverend Lynda
:21:19. > :21:22.Rose says maybe strict orthodox Christians, saying there is
:21:23. > :21:26.something wrong with what you think, it doesn't fit with British society
:21:27. > :21:32.and people are feeling marginalised. I think the British Government has a
:21:33. > :21:37.responsibility to protect people's freedom to express their religious
:21:38. > :21:41.views, but it also has a responsibility to protect British
:21:42. > :21:48.lives. And that's what we need to focus on. I'm sorry, this policy
:21:49. > :21:52.which Douglas and Adam are not interested in shows this policy
:21:53. > :21:58.increases the risk of terrorism. I don't talk to racists. Just be
:21:59. > :22:03.quiet. By way of going to the audience, Tim Cross, Peter I will be
:22:04. > :22:08.back to you, but I did say I would go to the audience first. Tim Kos, I
:22:09. > :22:15.Taw you wanted to come in. We all carry baggage on this. If I try and
:22:16. > :22:19.lay out where I come from, I was a bomb disposal operator in Northern
:22:20. > :22:24.Ireland in the 19 0s. I learned there was a small hard core of
:22:25. > :22:30.brutal killers a who will blow themselves up. They did not do that
:22:31. > :22:34.in Northern Ireland. That number was a few hundred. Around them are are a
:22:35. > :22:37.few thousands in Northern Ireland prepared to fund them, give them
:22:38. > :22:44.shelter and hide their weapons. Around that circle was a big circle,
:22:45. > :22:51.probably 100,000 strong, who would never have hurt anybody, never have
:22:52. > :22:56.blown anybody up or harboured up but were quite sympathetic to the island
:22:57. > :23:04.of Northern Ireland. In pure nones terms the a lot of people are
:23:05. > :23:11.blowing themselves up and killing people, an inner circle funding and
:23:12. > :23:15.so on, and a broad circle sympathetic to these ideas and a
:23:16. > :23:18.caliphate. Is this the way to win the battle of ideas? What worries
:23:19. > :23:22.me, we talk about British values. The point about what is extremism is
:23:23. > :23:26.a fair point. We need to be much more positive about this. What is it
:23:27. > :23:31.about the nation, our nation, that means these values that are held by
:23:32. > :23:35.that hard core and inner circle are not just acceptable? We collectively
:23:36. > :23:43.need to have that debate and try and get that clearer. Thank you Tim. I
:23:44. > :23:50.would like to say that freedom of religion I think is a great thing
:23:51. > :23:55.achieved... Freedom of conscience. Freedom of conscience. Had it
:23:56. > :23:58.shouldn't be manipulated by those religions that they don't allow
:23:59. > :24:03.criticism within their own religion. For example in Christianity, if you
:24:04. > :24:10.criticise Jesus or anything in the Bible, nobody is going to bomb you
:24:11. > :24:15.or threaten you, but in Islam, nobody can talk about the prophet of
:24:16. > :24:24.Islam. It is not allowed by Islamic teaching. This causes extremism.
:24:25. > :24:31.Morning to you. Yeah, you. Me? Yes! Sorry. Just a quick point and
:24:32. > :24:36.question. I've done the Prevent training and as part of a school
:24:37. > :24:39.training and it was quite a positive experience in the sense that it was
:24:40. > :24:44.about protecting young people. It made it very clear, the trainers, it
:24:45. > :24:50.wasn't looking at just Muslims. They made that clear. It is an important
:24:51. > :24:53.distinction to make. It is about protecting young people in general.
:24:54. > :24:59.It is important not to bracket people. One of the questions I had
:25:00. > :25:07.to the gentleman here, it was saying that Britain is, or England, is
:25:08. > :25:11.quite a good place to be a Muslim. My understanding is that one of my
:25:12. > :25:16.really close friends is a Muslim, it is not the ideas that are very kind
:25:17. > :25:21.of peaceful and that are challenged. It is the ideas that can seem to
:25:22. > :25:28.cause people to be violent and it's those ideas that I think are rightly
:25:29. > :25:32.challenged rather than just being a Muslim isn't the issue. It's the
:25:33. > :25:36.actions. Peter, I promised to come back to you, and Kate. First of all
:25:37. > :25:40.there's a points about legislation that people really have to remember.
:25:41. > :25:43.Once it's passed it's passed. The existing Government, the people who
:25:44. > :25:47.are speaking out for this now, may say it won't be used for this reason
:25:48. > :25:51.or that reason. That's no guarantee. Once you've passed legislation of
:25:52. > :25:55.this kind, some future Government may well used it. Once you have the
:25:56. > :26:00.idea of extremism on the statute book, it is usable against anybody.
:26:01. > :26:03.A factual point that people need to consider. If you look at nearly
:26:04. > :26:08.every single terrorist outrage in the western world, it has not been
:26:09. > :26:12.undertaken by people who've been enthusiastic supporters of the
:26:13. > :26:16.Muslim religion. They have mostly been petty criminals leading lives
:26:17. > :26:20.of drinking, drug taking, and low-level crime. You can go through
:26:21. > :26:24.the whole list over and over again. These are not the sort of people you
:26:25. > :26:29.are classifying as extremists. If we are really worried about these
:26:30. > :26:35.people, from the killers of Lee Rigby, to the Charlie Hebdo outrage,
:26:36. > :26:39.they all have criminal records for drug abuse and petty crime, or they
:26:40. > :26:44.have friends who will recount that this is the sort of things theyna
:26:45. > :26:48.they do. These are the people, if we are seriously trying to stamp out
:26:49. > :26:56.this crime, that's where we ought to be looking. Ailient ating the
:26:57. > :27:00.psychologically homeless. Ludicrous attempts to influence thought are
:27:01. > :27:03.not justified as a terrorist measure against violence.
:27:04. > :27:09.APPLAUSE APPLAUSE. We have to answer this question, is there a link
:27:10. > :27:12.between religion and extremism, or violent behaviour or whatever.
:27:13. > :27:19.Clearly extreme behaviour needs an extreme reason. The promise of
:27:20. > :27:24.eternal life/fiery pits of hell is one of the reasons coming up we are
:27:25. > :27:33.going to talk about abortion later in the show and in the US there are
:27:34. > :27:40.Christian extremists who go around killing abortionists. There are
:27:41. > :27:44.examples of people being extreme in different religions. The Government
:27:45. > :27:47.is also worried about losing votes among ordinary religious people, so
:27:48. > :27:53.they end up with this strategy that says you are allowed to have an
:27:54. > :27:58.imaginary friend so long as he only says nice things. There's a whole
:27:59. > :28:01.trek trip of people who want to go out and kill people, who want to say
:28:02. > :28:06.horrible things about gay people, who want to force people to cover up
:28:07. > :28:11.and Vale themselves. Right the way through to people who've nasty
:28:12. > :28:17.attitudes to having sex our marriage and so on. These are attitudes we
:28:18. > :28:21.should tolerate but challenge. The Government should step away from the
:28:22. > :28:24.whole issue of religion. We know where m the whole issue of religion.
:28:25. > :28:26.We know where these problems arise from - an inequal segregated
:28:27. > :28:29.society. While we've got a Government that continues to fund
:28:30. > :28:33.faith schools and disintegration of our society, we are not going to
:28:34. > :28:40.challenge these issues. APPLAUSE. I want to get this these
:28:41. > :28:44.definitions of extremism and aligned with that our ideas of British
:28:45. > :28:49.values. One of the Prevent definitions of extremism, vogual or
:28:50. > :28:52.active opposition to British values. One is calling for the death of a
:28:53. > :28:57.member of the Armed Forces. If somebody were to call for the death
:28:58. > :29:01.of a member of the Armed Forces, is that a definition of extremism? I
:29:02. > :29:04.don't think it is that focussed. I think it is opposition to the
:29:05. > :29:08.involved of the Armed Forces. Calling for the death of a member of
:29:09. > :29:12.the Armed Forces, is that extremism? The reality of the matter is that
:29:13. > :29:18.the laws that govern international conflict are not those relative to
:29:19. > :29:24.the UK. I don't know the infrastructure of international law
:29:25. > :29:29.and civil war in this... ALL TALK AT ONCE
:29:30. > :29:33.Nicky, one thing is important. Peter raised some excellent points. You
:29:34. > :29:38.can keep claiming that ideology and religion is the cause of this issue
:29:39. > :29:43.but as Peter articulately noted, all the cases we have show this is a
:29:44. > :29:48.political phenomenon. In fact even MI5's internal research on the issue
:29:49. > :29:51.of political violence and terrorism showcases that religion acts as a
:29:52. > :29:57.balance work defence terrorism and political violence. So this idea
:29:58. > :30:01.that it is this overzealous irrational ideology driving
:30:02. > :30:06.terrorism is a complete red herring and dissen Jennous. Policies
:30:07. > :30:11.introduced now by the Government in the name of countering political
:30:12. > :30:18.Islamic violence are already being allied to Muslim communities. Police
:30:19. > :30:22.have been surveying Caroline Lucas and the Green Party. And left-wing
:30:23. > :30:32.dissidents and activists. I am not the world's greatest fan of
:30:33. > :30:38.the Prevent strategy, I think it is an attempt by the government to deal
:30:39. > :30:42.with a pretty insoluble problem. That is fairly pessimistic. If you
:30:43. > :30:47.have a choice of whether you believe you should follow David Cameron or
:30:48. > :30:53.Allah, a lot of Muslims will follow Allah, funnily enough. That is
:30:54. > :31:00.because the world is split into good and bad, isn't it? CHUCKLING
:31:01. > :31:07.If you would just allow me to finish one sentence, you might learn
:31:08. > :31:10.something. Don't patronise me! The interesting thing is that our
:31:11. > :31:14.government in Britain is trying to do as a result of the mass
:31:15. > :31:19.immigration in recent decades is to try to build a cohesive society. The
:31:20. > :31:23.interesting thing about this is that this government as with the previous
:31:24. > :31:26.doesn't particularly have the confidence to say British, British
:31:27. > :31:30.values, British institutions, so what are we doing? We are trying to
:31:31. > :31:36.make it liberal values, that Britain will be about liberal values, about
:31:37. > :31:40.gay marriage, all sorts of other things they have penned this on. I
:31:41. > :31:44.am by the way, think this is a big mistake, because it is all very well
:31:45. > :31:48.saying we will make people liberals, but that does not mean you make them
:31:49. > :31:52.British or with any other sense of identity. The interesting thing is
:31:53. > :31:56.that because the British government has decided effectively the best we
:31:57. > :32:00.can do is to make people vaguely liberal, then it means that the
:32:01. > :32:05.qualifications for extremism, as it were, are exactly effectively
:32:06. > :32:10.conservative ideas, and that is why the Islam thing keeps posing such an
:32:11. > :32:15.issue. Because in terms of social liberalism, Islam is the slowest kid
:32:16. > :32:18.in the class, and we are all speaking at the level of the slowest
:32:19. > :32:22.kid in the class and that is a problem we are not going to get over
:32:23. > :32:27.for a long time to come. Mohammed. We are coming to the end of this
:32:28. > :32:30.section, and Lynda you will have a plentiful contribution in our next
:32:31. > :32:36.debate. I have a stopwatch in my ear. Mohammed. Firstly, just to
:32:37. > :32:42.address the British values, we went through this, people prefer
:32:43. > :32:47.universal values as opposed to British values. That incorporates
:32:48. > :32:54.more than that, a respect for every human being. Rendition, torture, all
:32:55. > :33:05.of that. I thought it was going to be a nice
:33:06. > :33:12.last wise word from Mohammed Khaliel. All of a sudden, mayhem and
:33:13. > :33:17.bedlam! Mohammed Khaliel, the last word. Let me put it at the last
:33:18. > :33:26.word, if everything was true as these right-wingers claim it is, why
:33:27. > :33:32.is is lamb the fastest-growing religion in the Western world? That
:33:33. > :33:34.says it all. It converts by the sword! That is the end of it.
:33:35. > :33:37.You too can join in both this morning's debates by logging
:33:38. > :33:39.on to bbc.co.uk/the big questions then following the link
:33:40. > :33:44.Or you can tweet using the hashtag bbctbq.
:33:45. > :33:47.Tell us what you think about our next Big Question too:
:33:48. > :33:50.Next Sunday we're back from Wychwood School in Oxford
:33:51. > :33:52.with a special debate asking just one Big Question:
:33:53. > :33:59.And, if you'd like to be in the audience at a future show,
:34:00. > :34:05.We're in Uxbridge in northwest London on June 5th for our usual
:34:06. > :34:07.live morning programme, and in the afternoon
:34:08. > :34:09.we're recording the last programme of this series,
:34:10. > :34:11.a special, asking a very Big Question indeed: Are we facing
:34:12. > :34:28.The We Trust Women Campaign has been launched by the British
:34:29. > :34:29.Pregnancy Advisory Service, who provide abortions
:34:30. > :34:33.They are calling for abortions to be decriminalised so no woman
:34:34. > :34:35.could be legally punished for inducing an abortion,
:34:36. > :34:41.Abortions would no longer require two doctors' signatures.
:34:42. > :34:44.Chemical abortions could take place in a woman's home, and abortion
:34:45. > :34:46.would be available at any stage of a pregnancy.
:34:47. > :34:49.The chief executive of the Royal College of Midwives
:34:50. > :34:50.has pledged her support but without consulting her members,
:34:51. > :34:58.many of whom are up in arms about the idea.
:34:59. > :35:02.Proponents argue that decriminalisation has worked
:35:03. > :35:05.in Canada and in Australian states without increasing the number
:35:06. > :35:08.of abortions but rather enabling more of them to take place
:35:09. > :35:16.It would mean treating abortion like any other medical procedure -
:35:17. > :35:18.a matter for the woman and her medical advisers,
:35:19. > :35:21.be they doctors, midwives or nurses, to discuss what is in her
:35:22. > :35:30.So, should abortion be decriminalised?
:35:31. > :35:37.Kate come on why the change, what is wrong with the current laws, the
:35:38. > :35:42.Czechs, the balances, up to 24 weeks? Why do you think it needs to
:35:43. > :35:46.change? The current law is pretty awful. Since 1967, women have been
:35:47. > :35:51.making do with it, but the current situation in the UK is that abortion
:35:52. > :35:56.was criminalised, something like 150 years ago, offences against the
:35:57. > :36:02.Person act, which also criminalised homosexuality and lots of other
:36:03. > :36:05.things. Then, in 67, we made a new abortion law which essentially
:36:06. > :36:10.provided some exemptions to that. Exemptions were given, provided that
:36:11. > :36:17.you have two Doctors's signatures, provided that it is before 24 weeks
:36:18. > :36:20.of the pregnancy. All of those were put in as exceptions, which means
:36:21. > :36:25.that if you fail to get a second doctor's signature on your abortion
:36:26. > :36:28.procurement form you can technically be criminalised, and of course the
:36:29. > :36:32.67 act did not cover Northern Ireland. So women who want an
:36:33. > :36:35.abortion, they know what they want and they have found a way through
:36:36. > :36:39.the legislation to get what they want. But what we are seeing as ever
:36:40. > :36:43.is that every week we have about 40 women a week, were from Northern
:36:44. > :36:46.Ireland to other parts of the UK to access an abortion, and every year a
:36:47. > :36:50.very small number of women who for whatever reason don't fit the
:36:51. > :36:54.criteria laid out, or example they are a tiny bit more than 24 weeks
:36:55. > :36:58.pregnant, end up going to Canada or Holland, and getting the service
:36:59. > :37:01.there. We look at one of these cases, are these women who have just
:37:02. > :37:06.flippantly not thought about what is going on until the last minute, no.
:37:07. > :37:08.We see some really difficult stories, we see very young women who
:37:09. > :37:12.did not even realise they could get pregnant at the time the abuse took
:37:13. > :37:15.place, and I think either criminalised those women or force
:37:16. > :37:18.them on a plane to Canada is cruel and daft. This might be the most
:37:19. > :37:22.radical thing anyone has ever said on your show, but I think women are
:37:23. > :37:26.intelligent, rational human beings, and that when they need medical
:37:27. > :37:32.treatment they should go to a doctor and havoc on the their doctor, and
:37:33. > :37:36.it is nobody 's's business. APPLAUSE Because I did not get to you at the
:37:37. > :37:42.end of the last debate, Lynda, I will come to you now. Do you really
:37:43. > :37:52.believe that people are casual about abortion? No, I don't think that,...
:37:53. > :38:00.Do you think people are treating it as contraception? Yes, I do. The
:38:01. > :38:02.abortion laws in this country have never been about criminalising
:38:03. > :38:08.women, they have been about defending the right of the unborn
:38:09. > :38:15.child. APPLAUSE The reality these days is that when
:38:16. > :38:19.a woman goes to a doctor, whatever age, the first question, and this is
:38:20. > :38:24.my experience too, so I know this is right, the first question is do you
:38:25. > :38:28.want this baby? And if they say no, they get referred for an abortion.
:38:29. > :38:32.This thing about having two signatures is nonsense, because we
:38:33. > :38:38.have all come across the stories now that our established fact where they
:38:39. > :38:41.keep these signed forms. Because even doctors know this legislation
:38:42. > :38:46.is a complete waste of everybody's time. But why would you want to
:38:47. > :38:56.extend? There was an opinion poll taken in 2012, 2% of women asked
:38:57. > :39:02.said yes, we want folders -- file decriminalisation. 59% of women said
:39:03. > :39:06.actually, you know what, we want a reduction in the time-limit for an
:39:07. > :39:10.abortion, because now routinely babies are surviving from 22 weeks,
:39:11. > :39:16.some as early as 20 weeks. There is no evidence of that either. Why are
:39:17. > :39:20.we still aborting unborn children at 24 weeks when in the next room
:39:21. > :39:27.doctors are fighting... We have this debate in Parliament a couple of
:39:28. > :39:32.years ago. What about this notion that it is being used as a form of
:39:33. > :39:36.contraception? I come to it from the point where I routinely help women
:39:37. > :39:39.who live in Northern Ireland and Ireland where they can't get
:39:40. > :39:46.abortions at all come to England, so I am dealing with the actual effects
:39:47. > :39:48.of criminalising abortion, where they are literally drinking bleach
:39:49. > :39:52.if they don't have the money to come over. This idea of using abortion as
:39:53. > :39:57.contraception, that is not great, but as a parent I have to say being
:39:58. > :40:00.a parent is a really giant, big job and it shouldn't be forced upon
:40:01. > :40:04.anybody who doesn't want it, OK? APPLAUSE
:40:05. > :40:10.I can tell you every kind of birth control you can be on you can still
:40:11. > :40:13.get pregnant, and even if you were "Careless", and had sex without
:40:14. > :40:16.birth control or the condom broke or whatever, to me that should not
:40:17. > :40:25.result in the punishment of having to care for a live human. It is not
:40:26. > :40:29.a punishment! Once a child is conceived, actually you bear
:40:30. > :40:32.responsibility for that child. That child has human rights too, and it
:40:33. > :40:36.is all very well saying you shouldn't have to bear it. Actually,
:40:37. > :40:41.women do have a choice whether or not to have sex. Oh, let's
:40:42. > :40:47.criminalise sex, unless you want to have a baby, let's have that as a
:40:48. > :40:56.law! Why you encouraging sex at the age of 11? It is called rape at that
:40:57. > :41:03.age. APPLAUSE How many convictions have you found?
:41:04. > :41:07.Sometimes there are, but where the boy is pretty much the same age,
:41:08. > :41:13.discretion comes in. Just because there is not a conviction doesn't
:41:14. > :41:19.mean it is not rape, does it? I don't think she said it wasn't. Sex
:41:20. > :41:28.has almost become the cup of copy at the end of the evening. I wish!
:41:29. > :41:31.LAUGHTER So many girls and boys are feeling
:41:32. > :41:43.pressured into having sex these days.
:41:44. > :41:54.Dominick, do situations at all? No, I don't, and when I used to get rape
:41:55. > :42:01.or incest, I I would hope summary would be heroic and save the life of
:42:02. > :42:07.their child, even at the expense of but through all the things I have
:42:08. > :42:11.learnt I have come round to say, an abortion adds a further horror on
:42:12. > :42:17.top of the rape or incest and is not a good way. But the real point of
:42:18. > :42:22.this is that there Yukon getaway from the fact that the point of an
:42:23. > :42:28.abortion is to take a human life. Even as a tiny collection of cells?
:42:29. > :42:32.You say that, I have counselled women who were told it is just a few
:42:33. > :42:36.cells at 12 weeks, and then when they have had a baby that they have
:42:37. > :42:40.wanted, the hospital has given them a leaflet, your baby has dear little
:42:41. > :42:44.fingers and toes, and they show you these 3-D pictures you see on
:42:45. > :42:49.television these days, what is obviously a human being waiving its
:42:50. > :42:56.little and legs, yawning, acting like a human. It is a human being,
:42:57. > :43:01.and a human death has to be the worst solution to any problem. I
:43:02. > :43:04.have counselled women with serious problems, and honestly it may not be
:43:05. > :43:08.easy but there is always a better help. I don't agree that there is
:43:09. > :43:12.oil is a better help, but I absolutely agree that people who
:43:13. > :43:15.become pregnant and wish to continue the pregnancy should be given all
:43:16. > :43:19.the help and support that they need. So let's up with social services,
:43:20. > :43:23.with affordable daycare and all of those things. But at the end of the
:43:24. > :43:28.day it is up to an individual person to decide whether or not they wish
:43:29. > :43:31.to continue that pregnancy, and I am completely respectful of your views,
:43:32. > :43:37.that you believe it is a human being from the moment of conception. That
:43:38. > :43:43.is absolutely fine, that is your choice. That is a medical fact.
:43:44. > :43:47.Every textbook will tell you that. I am just talking about 12 weeks now.
:43:48. > :43:51.At the end of the day come you can't make the decision for me or for any
:43:52. > :43:55.other person as to whether or not I am ready all willing or able to
:43:56. > :44:03.bring that child to term and care for it. APPLAUSE
:44:04. > :44:08.why should you make the decision for her? We make the decision in our
:44:09. > :44:11.country that is a body has a born baby that is an absolute torment and
:44:12. > :44:14.keeps them awake the whole night and is a torment to them, they are not
:44:15. > :44:19.allowed to kill that baby. We protect that baby's life. Don't you
:44:20. > :44:23.think a civilised country ought to protect the lives of a baby that
:44:24. > :44:27.looks like a baby, even if it is fairly small? It is no more just a
:44:28. > :44:34.collection of cells than you or I are, it is a human being. APPLAUSE
:44:35. > :44:40.This discussion about at what point in conception right the way through
:44:41. > :44:44.the development of a foetus to birth, and what point we decide it
:44:45. > :44:50.becomes a human life, it is an interesting discussion... Seven
:44:51. > :44:58.months, eight months, how far would you go? I was going to give you an
:44:59. > :45:04.answer I had not developed on the basis of Islam, if that is all
:45:05. > :45:08.right. My point is that I don't believe it is as simple as that. I
:45:09. > :45:13.don't believe there is a millisecond in time ago from not to life. It is
:45:14. > :45:28.absolutely irrelevant. The situation is that there is probably someone in
:45:29. > :45:34.a hospital... From the moment of conception... Let me just finished
:45:35. > :45:37.my point. At eight months, you would not be talking about abortion, you
:45:38. > :45:44.would be talking about putting the child up for adoption. Could I
:45:45. > :45:47.please finish? There are some of the inner hospital near here that needs
:45:48. > :45:50.a kidney force that you have two kidneys, most people do, and if you
:45:51. > :45:54.want to donate your kidney to that person to keep them alive, then you
:45:55. > :45:57.are a wonderful, fantastic human being and I support your enthusiasm
:45:58. > :46:00.for doing that, but you are not obliged to. I do anyone should be
:46:01. > :46:04.pinned down and have a kidney removed. If you want to tell me
:46:05. > :46:08.there is a human being that in order to stay alive must have access to
:46:09. > :46:12.all of my organs, my womb, my uterus, my kidneys, my lungs, I
:46:13. > :46:15.would say to you that has to be my choice whether I donate the use of
:46:16. > :46:17.my body to that individual. If I choose not to, as much as it might
:46:18. > :46:29.be harsh, it is still my choice. Tim Cross, put yourself in a woman's
:46:30. > :46:38.shoes. We all carry baggage on this. If we go back to the facts as we
:46:39. > :46:49.understand them today, for 2,500 years the Hippocratic Oath said you
:46:50. > :46:56.will not endorse abortion. We changed the '67 Act. At that point
:46:57. > :47:03.about 6,100 abortions were conducted by the NHS and the same number were
:47:04. > :47:07.carried out by backstreet abortionists. Abortionists. Women
:47:08. > :47:14.were dying. Within five years it had gone up to 150,000. It reached
:47:15. > :47:19.200,000 last year it was 185,000, abortions in England and Wales.
:47:20. > :47:24.Since the Act about 7 million babies have been bored in this country.
:47:25. > :47:30.Million have been bored in this country. --
:47:31. > :47:37.have been aborted in this country. A paper in the medical ethics European
:47:38. > :47:40.alsuggested we should move now to post-birth abortion. The problem
:47:41. > :47:49.arrives, there's a problem with the child... We were not getting into
:47:50. > :47:54.that, Tim. The well, it is about the journey where we've come from and
:47:55. > :47:59.where we are going. The argument is the change would lead to earlier
:48:00. > :48:04.abortions, because there would not be so many hurdles. Hurdles.. What's
:48:05. > :48:11.really important about this debate. To be fair to her the lady of the
:48:12. > :48:14.midwives has put on the table the reality that the '67 Act. I would
:48:15. > :48:18.argue that it is not just their decision. It is about the nature of
:48:19. > :48:24.our society and how we treat life. Therefore, as a society it is fair
:48:25. > :48:27.to have the conversation. Are we comfortable aborting 200,000 babies
:48:28. > :48:37.a year and where this may go in the years to come. That's the question:
:48:38. > :48:43.Are we comfortable? Today we've heard a lot about the sanctity of
:48:44. > :48:47.life, which seems especially in Christianity to be the most
:48:48. > :48:51.important precept to abortion here. But rather more importantly is the
:48:52. > :48:57.quality of life. If you're pregnant and you are going to be a mother and
:48:58. > :49:00.you don't want the child, if you were raped or if it was an accident,
:49:01. > :49:03.you are not ready to be a mother, so that child is going to have a very
:49:04. > :49:07.poor quality of life. APPLAUSE APPLAUSE. Peter, do you
:49:08. > :49:14.want to respond? There are so many answers to that. Let me introduce a
:49:15. > :49:21.come of points into this. Abortion is put forward as the liberation of
:49:22. > :49:31.women. On the contrary, especially since the '67 Act, the liberation of
:49:32. > :49:37.irresponsible men. Mara says she wishes to be autonomous, that person
:49:38. > :49:41.who has the baby needs to be autonomous and have the decision
:49:42. > :49:46.left to herself. First of all a baby is not a disease or a medical
:49:47. > :49:49.problem. I didn't say it was. Secondly, there's a baby involved.
:49:50. > :49:53.If you are going to insist so furiously on the individual rights
:49:54. > :50:02.of the woman, you cannot conceivably ignore or deny or simply sweep aside
:50:03. > :50:06.the right to life of the baby. It is absurd to treat one as absolute and
:50:07. > :50:12.the other as non-existent. My own view, the question of rape or incest
:50:13. > :50:18.is very difficult indeed for anybody who values human life. Can anybody
:50:19. > :50:24.really, really deep inside having seen a living baby, many babies now
:50:25. > :50:28.are born at stages where they can be abort bid. Can anybody really say
:50:29. > :50:34.the killing of that baby, a human person, it was better solution than
:50:35. > :50:37.the adoption of that baby. If the mother does not wanta baby, there
:50:38. > :50:44.are plenty who do. APPLAUSE APPLAUSE. First of all 54%
:50:45. > :50:51.of women who've terminations have already had one child. So yes they
:50:52. > :50:56.have seen a living baby. Pregnancy is not a walk in the park. Let's
:50:57. > :51:05.talk about the care system in this country. I'm not saying, Yay,
:51:06. > :51:09.abortion! The alternative is me getting phone calls every day from
:51:10. > :51:14.women in Northern Ireland who are crashing their cars to try to
:51:15. > :51:21.procure a miscarriage, taking poisons, for me it's got to be the
:51:22. > :51:27.woman's choice. I want to go back to the hysteria in the headlines about
:51:28. > :51:32.women aborting babies up to the point of birth. When they do, it is
:51:33. > :51:36.for incredibly compelling reasons. I don't think anybody has made that
:51:37. > :51:40.point. You are a great one for letting people finish. There is I
:51:41. > :51:46.don't think anybody in this country over the age of 11 who doesn't know
:51:47. > :51:51.how babies are made. Contraception has never been so readily available.
:51:52. > :51:55.You can walk into a chemist's shop and get a morning-after pill. A
:51:56. > :51:59.large number of abortions, as you well know, are in the first abortion
:52:00. > :52:04.or even second or third, but fourth and fifth by the same people. This
:52:05. > :52:09.is being used as contraception because of the policy encouraged. In
:52:10. > :52:14.the old Soviet Union were it was encouraged as much as it was here,
:52:15. > :52:22.in the end the number of abortions outnumbered live births. We also
:52:23. > :52:28.have the problem of gender selection. May I make this very
:52:29. > :52:35.important point? In India females are aborted. At present a doctor, a
:52:36. > :52:37.nurse or a midwife who refuses on grounds of conscience from
:52:38. > :52:42.performing an abortion can pretty much do so. Once the decriminalisers
:52:43. > :52:46.have got their way the pressure will be on those doctors and nurses who
:52:47. > :52:50.in conscience do not wish to do this to do it. The whole situation will
:52:51. > :52:53.turn over from one where it is fundamentally a bad thing to one
:52:54. > :52:59.where it is fundamentally a good thing and everyone has to like it.
:53:00. > :53:04.You've been wanting to say something for some time. In yes, this society
:53:05. > :53:08.where people feel they like they can't cope, this attitude is being
:53:09. > :53:13.forced upon women. Do we want to contribute to that society? Do we
:53:14. > :53:17.want to contribute to this idea that women simply can't cope with the
:53:18. > :53:21.pregnancy? Is it a sign of liberation that 200,000 abortions
:53:22. > :53:24.happen every year? Is this helpful to women this, new
:53:25. > :53:28.decriminalisation, which means abortions can happen up to birth? Is
:53:29. > :53:34.that happening women and ensuring their safety? How about pro-choice?
:53:35. > :53:39.Surely we should be making decisions for women. If you want to keep your
:53:40. > :53:43.child and go through to birth, that's great. But how about all of
:53:44. > :53:49.the women who don't have that? I as a man don't feel I should have that
:53:50. > :53:53.right in society to say, should a woman not be able to have an
:53:54. > :53:57.abortion, that's terrible. Do we really want a society where we have
:53:58. > :54:06.control of women? APPLAUSE. They are taking away the
:54:07. > :54:09.two-doctor sig you're ins. ANSMIT. They are taking away the two-doctor
:54:10. > :54:13.sig you're ins. -- two doctor signatures. You are undermining the
:54:14. > :54:17.seriousness of this procedure, so we are risking women's health. We are
:54:18. > :54:20.letting women go through this traumatic experience, it is not
:54:21. > :54:23.always the case that it's the traumatic, but it account. There's a
:54:24. > :54:29.lot of bleeding involved, clearly, and being on your own, which a lot
:54:30. > :54:33.of women will be. She says there's a lot of bleeding involved. That's not
:54:34. > :54:40.true. As it happens, particularly earlier... What, never? I'm sorry?
:54:41. > :54:45.Never? You are saying it is an absolute. Are you saying it is not
:54:46. > :54:50.true. I said it is not true that there is standardly a lot of
:54:51. > :54:55.bleeding in abortion. Melee abortion is one of the least complicated
:54:56. > :54:59.straightforward medical... One of the other things of this
:55:00. > :55:03.legislation, it would allow women having an early melee abortion to
:55:04. > :55:07.take the tablets home with you and at the moment you have to take two
:55:08. > :55:16.trips to the medical centre to take two sets of tablets. The second
:55:17. > :55:20.sets... The first set causes the termination and the second set
:55:21. > :55:25.causes the miscarriage. To be able to take those pills at home would be
:55:26. > :55:30.much more sensible. Having these complicated laws is a bad idea.
:55:31. > :55:34.Idea. Let me answer your question... Are there too many abortions in this
:55:35. > :55:39.country? The answer is no. ALL TALK AT ONCE
:55:40. > :55:44.Let me finish! The correct number of abortions is this, one for every
:55:45. > :55:48.woks who wants one. The only argument is this. This belongs to
:55:49. > :55:53.me. This is my uterus. I should be the one who makes decisions about
:55:54. > :55:57.everything that happens to my body. And the life of the baby belongs to
:55:58. > :56:02.(Inaudible) ALL TALK AT ONCE
:56:03. > :56:07.Reverend Lynda Rose. . How many cases have we had of women being
:56:08. > :56:14.criminalised for abortion in this country? The answer is none. One of
:56:15. > :56:17.the sex grooming rings in Oxford they were using a backstreet
:56:18. > :56:24.abortionist in Reading. They didn't want to girls, who were underage, to
:56:25. > :56:31.go to the doctors, so their activities would become known. What
:56:32. > :56:33.you would be doing effectively is contributing towards paedophilia,
:56:34. > :56:39.towards abuse, exploitation of women. This is a serious point.
:56:40. > :56:44.Mara, come back on that point. It is incendiary nonsense. Mara? First of
:56:45. > :56:48.all I think it would've been great if those young women had been
:56:49. > :56:51.allowed to go into a clinic where they would have been taken into a
:56:52. > :56:58.room and it what have been found out that it what have been grooming. Why
:56:59. > :57:02.do you need to decriminalise abortion? Because if you
:57:03. > :57:08.decriminalise, you will increase the number of terminations that happen
:57:09. > :57:11.early on. To your point about needing two doctors' signatures, why
:57:12. > :57:16.do I not need two doctors' signatures to have a brain surgery,
:57:17. > :57:23.a far more complicated procedure than abortion. Because it is taking
:57:24. > :57:27.a life! We need to concentrate more on the mother in this argument. All
:57:28. > :57:32.the experience is that it is safer for women in countries where
:57:33. > :57:36.abortion is kept lower. If you compare Chile with the rest of South
:57:37. > :57:40.America, that kind of thing. I would also say if there's a woman who is
:57:41. > :57:46.watching this programme isn't is thinking she might be forced into an
:57:47. > :57:49.abortion, she should find somebody... El Salvador is terrible
:57:50. > :57:55.with the figures. It is banned there. Talk over what she can do
:57:56. > :57:59.instead and look for the help available and not give up straight
:58:00. > :58:02.away. There is always a better solution and people are there to
:58:03. > :58:10.help you find it if you are persevere in looking for it, and it
:58:11. > :58:15.does save a baby's life. I've counselled women who were, quotes,
:58:16. > :58:19.forced to go ahead with the pregnancy and the story ends up, and
:58:20. > :58:24.I wouldn't be without him for the world. For the sake of women and how
:58:25. > :58:29.they suffer and all the research there is about the increased suit
:58:30. > :58:36.risk, increased risk... ALL TALK AT ONCE.
:58:37. > :58:38.Time has got away from us. Thank you all very much.
:58:39. > :58:40.As always, the debates will continue online and on Twitter.
:58:41. > :58:43.We're back from Oxford next Sunday for that special asking -
:58:44. > :59:13.People were afraid of her political convictions -