:00:00. > :00:09.White working class boys - Are they discriminated against?
:00:10. > :00:25.And overseas aid - Should we stay committed to 0.7%?
:00:26. > :00:33.Today we're live from Brunel University London in Uxbridge.
:00:34. > :00:36.Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.
:00:37. > :00:50.Only a tenth of working class white boys go on to university compared
:00:51. > :00:55.to a fifth of boys from a black Caribbean heritage, half of boys
:00:56. > :00:59.from an Indian background, and three out of five Chinese boys.
:01:00. > :01:01.Even the poorest working class girls, those on free school meals,
:01:02. > :01:04.are doing much better than their brothers - they're 50%
:01:05. > :01:09.And although males are now a minority amongst
:01:10. > :01:16.undergraduate and post-graduate students, those from the richest
:01:17. > :01:19.backgrounds are five times more likely to go onto higher education
:01:20. > :01:24.Are white working class boys being discriminated against?
:01:25. > :01:32.Martin, you think this is a scandal, why so? I do. We live in a world
:01:33. > :01:37.where to be born white and male is deemed to be winning at life's
:01:38. > :01:41.lottery. We hear about white privilege or the time. Evidence
:01:42. > :01:44.surrounds us, white men run the country. Their arm or men called
:01:45. > :01:50.John on the FTSE 100 than women. Proof that men are in control. The
:01:51. > :01:55.Erik Pieters is irrefutable among the working class in particular. --
:01:56. > :02:00.the evidence is irrefutable. A damning indictment which prove white
:02:01. > :02:04.boys are the bottom of the heap. Not only that, there is no intervention
:02:05. > :02:07.to help. When I asked the Department for Education, are there any plans
:02:08. > :02:14.to address this? It is the evidence is clear. Thereon no plans. Why not?
:02:15. > :02:18.The head of the University admissions Council has been crying
:02:19. > :02:22.out for years, this is an inequality. Why can we not be gender
:02:23. > :02:27.blind and race blind and merely sought the neediest? White boys are
:02:28. > :02:32.the neediest. Yet they have no friends, they have no allies in the
:02:33. > :02:34.corridors of power. There is an equalities minister recently changed
:02:35. > :02:40.to the women's and equalities minister. The mere mention of
:02:41. > :02:45.raising boys or men's issues in the Houses of Parliament is met with
:02:46. > :02:47.outright ridicule and contempt. International men's Day last
:02:48. > :02:52.November, Jess Phillips laughed at the idea and tried to block the
:02:53. > :02:57.debate and failed. On that list was the poor education of these boys who
:02:58. > :03:03.are not going to university. We do not know why. There are attitudinal
:03:04. > :03:10.differences. White boys feel school is not for them. They are not being
:03:11. > :03:13.helped. We need more male primary school teachers. You are saying a
:03:14. > :03:19.lot here, laying it all out. I'm sure you've got more. Basically you
:03:20. > :03:29.are saying young, working class white boys are being discriminated
:03:30. > :03:35.against. Nicola, is that the case? Martin makes a very emotional start
:03:36. > :03:40.off, with one or two fact sprinkled in. But look, there are issues
:03:41. > :03:46.concerning social mobility in this country and indeed the attainment of
:03:47. > :03:50.white working-class boys. To say the government is not looking at these
:03:51. > :03:53.issues is a fallacy. How do we know this? Just a couple of years ago the
:03:54. > :03:57.education select committee called for evidence looking at this very
:03:58. > :04:01.issue. At the moment we have something called the pupil premium,
:04:02. > :04:07.which is looking to support the need for pupils from disadvantaged
:04:08. > :04:14.backgrounds. Under the previous government we also had a wider
:04:15. > :04:19.participation agenda. To say we are not looking at this as a society is
:04:20. > :04:22.completely untrue. Where I would agree with you is that actually
:04:23. > :04:26.there is an issue around social mobility in this country. And that
:04:27. > :04:31.issue affects different groups in different ways. Not just the white
:04:32. > :04:37.working class, but also young people from different racial and faith
:04:38. > :04:41.backgrounds. But there is a big difference... Let me finish my
:04:42. > :04:45.point. Between different racial and faith minorities. That is something
:04:46. > :04:51.we are abysmal at recognising and discussing. I agree with you that
:04:52. > :04:55.this is being looked at, great. Let's look at the evidence. We have
:04:56. > :05:00.the evidence for at least eight years. Where are the outreach
:05:01. > :05:05.projects? Where is the affirmative action to recruit more male primary
:05:06. > :05:08.school teachers? What do you mean by the phrase white privilege? Well you
:05:09. > :05:14.must be an expert on that, tell us about that. There is an automatic
:05:15. > :05:16.assumption that if you are born white you are born into privilege
:05:17. > :05:23.and have a better start in life, this proves otherwise. It does!
:05:24. > :05:28.Comeback on that, Nicola, then I will spread it around. I'm not even
:05:29. > :05:35.going to talk about my own research here, let me not to do that. Let me
:05:36. > :05:38.site instead some research carried out by the commission for social
:05:39. > :05:43.mobility and child poverty published just a couple of years ago. This is
:05:44. > :05:47.chaired by Adam Milburn and what their report is, they carried out a
:05:48. > :05:52.survey of all of the businesses, media, law, these are professions
:05:53. > :05:59.which are seen to have the most influence on society, and what they
:06:00. > :06:05.found in that survey of over 4000 leaders was that they are being led
:06:06. > :06:11.by white privileged men. Men who have been to independent schools,
:06:12. > :06:13.studied at Oxbridge. We are not talking about those, they are
:06:14. > :06:18.completely different men. We might not be but we should be. Why?
:06:19. > :06:23.Because those people are in positions of power and determine
:06:24. > :06:26.what happens in our society. To talk about disadvantage without also
:06:27. > :06:30.recognising advantage, and how people get to those positions, and
:06:31. > :06:39.protect those positions, is to have a false debate. James Bloodworth?
:06:40. > :06:42.This sums up what we are really talking about here, class, it is not
:06:43. > :06:47.necessarily about the colour of your skin or your sexuality or your
:06:48. > :06:52.gender. What about the notion of white privilege? Class has dropped
:06:53. > :06:56.off the political agenda. David Cameron is a self professed liberal
:06:57. > :07:00.conservative, the Telegraph talks about his woman problem. At the same
:07:01. > :07:03.time class has dropped off the political agenda. What about this
:07:04. > :07:10.notion of white privilege? There are many in our society, as was just
:07:11. > :07:13.mentioned, most in my profession, journalism, politics, most of the
:07:14. > :07:18.power pool people are white men. But the white man selling the big issue
:07:19. > :07:22.down in Oxford Circus is not privileged. Y, disproportionately,
:07:23. > :07:26.if we look at young working-class boys who are white, working-class
:07:27. > :07:32.boys who are black, do more young black boys end up with mental health
:07:33. > :07:35.issues, on the wrong end of stop and search come in prison? Again, it is
:07:36. > :07:41.black working-class boys, working-class women. Again in recent
:07:42. > :07:47.years we have seen the expansion of university, more women going to
:07:48. > :07:51.university than men. But they do better than working-class boys. You
:07:52. > :07:55.have a slightly different issue around the feeling that men have
:07:56. > :08:00.lost their place in the economy. Hang on. We get into the kernel of
:08:01. > :08:04.this, how this is coming accommodation? How come we are
:08:05. > :08:07.having this discussion now? And which white class working boys are
:08:08. > :08:14.we talking about? Disabled white class working-class boys? I'm
:08:15. > :08:16.concerned that the suggestion is we are focusing on white working-class
:08:17. > :08:23.boys because the aim is to help them. My suspicion is the aim is to
:08:24. > :08:26.disadvantage other groups. There has been too much attention paid to
:08:27. > :08:32.black boys, two young women, two Muslim boys, we must change that,
:08:33. > :08:35.redressed the balance. I'm suggesting that at the heart of this
:08:36. > :08:42.there is a much broader political agenda, which is a grim one, which
:08:43. > :08:46.is about dividing and ruling. For this group we are talking about, is
:08:47. > :08:51.it helped, or is it to attack other groups? It saddens me that so much
:08:52. > :08:54.of the political currency of our society is about citizens versus
:08:55. > :08:58.immigrants, people on benefits versus others, and I feel what we
:08:59. > :09:02.should be looking at here is the fact that more and more people, more
:09:03. > :09:08.and more groups, including young white working-class boys, are being
:09:09. > :09:13.disadvantaged as inequality increases, as poverty increases, and
:09:14. > :09:18.as insecurity. This is a false debate. Martin, something you have
:09:19. > :09:24.written about, we were previously talking about one privileged group
:09:25. > :09:27.coming young white working-class boys, the traditional industries,
:09:28. > :09:31.ideas of masculinity, the world has changed, the world is changing,
:09:32. > :09:34.you've spoken about this idea about the feminisation of society, what do
:09:35. > :09:40.you mean and is that relevant? That came from Mary Cooke who pointed out
:09:41. > :09:45.that a lot of these working-class boys... I'm the son of a coal miner,
:09:46. > :09:51.OK? He was underground for 47 years. I'm the first boy from my family to
:09:52. > :09:55.go to university. The nurturing and the help I believe was there 30
:09:56. > :09:58.years ago when I was at school, which we are seeing, isn't there
:09:59. > :10:02.now. I want to return to your point about some sort of political point
:10:03. > :10:06.scoring against Muslim people or black people, it absolutely is not.
:10:07. > :10:12.I support every outreach project to get more girls into stem science.
:10:13. > :10:15.I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about our politicians. To
:10:16. > :10:20.suggest that we cannot or should not reach out to help white
:10:21. > :10:25.working-class boys because that in some way is point-scoring against
:10:26. > :10:29.other minorities is grotesque. And it's also not helping those who are
:10:30. > :10:34.demonstrably and provably the most needy right now. They need help. Why
:10:35. > :10:40.can't we look beyond their skin colour? I want to just explore this.
:10:41. > :10:43.I will come back to you. To contextualise it, this issue of
:10:44. > :10:49.feminisation of society, in what way is that relevant? Soap Mary Cooke
:10:50. > :10:52.said and lots of other academic research is saying that when boys go
:10:53. > :10:58.to particularly primary School, a situation now where 85% of the
:10:59. > :11:00.teachers are women. It is a caring profession where there has been no
:11:01. > :11:05.corresponding drive to get men into there. There is an excellent scheme
:11:06. > :11:08.in New York, because New York has the same problem but with black boys
:11:09. > :11:11.being the bottom of the heap. There is a scheme to get more black men
:11:12. > :11:16.into primary school teaching. Amazing. Can we please have
:11:17. > :11:20.something like that here? All the experts are telling us that these
:11:21. > :11:23.boys respond to male role models in school, particularly if they come
:11:24. > :11:32.from broken homes come which is an affliction of the working class.
:11:33. > :11:36.Jane, do you buy this? Well, no, I don't. Martin, why aren't you down a
:11:37. > :11:43.coal mine? Because they are all closed. Yes. And people like me
:11:44. > :11:47.would have nowhere to work. There was a point to asking that. They are
:11:48. > :11:50.all closed. So Martin, you have escaped from that. And if you hadn't
:11:51. > :12:01.escaped from that, what were you going to do? How will today's boys
:12:02. > :12:05.cope? I'm very concerned that what is going on here is, yes there is an
:12:06. > :12:11.issue, yes there is a problem, but it's being used to clamp down on
:12:12. > :12:14.others. It is there is privilege. There is privileged to be in mail
:12:15. > :12:20.whether you are at the bottom of the heap or not. -- a privilege to be in
:12:21. > :12:23.male. Men at the top of society enjoy that privilege and they are
:12:24. > :12:28.doing very, very little for those further down. The problem is that
:12:29. > :12:39.young boys socialise in ways that are anti-social. There is an awful
:12:40. > :12:45.lot about, you at the crime figures, something like one in four young men
:12:46. > :12:49.by the time they reached the age 20 have a criminal record. 30, 40 years
:12:50. > :12:53.ago, you could have got away from that. Now that means by the time
:12:54. > :12:57.they reach 20, one in four young men are unable to go forward in work,
:12:58. > :13:03.and that is not because we are against them, it is because they
:13:04. > :13:08.aren't in the home at the very most basic level explaining that what
:13:09. > :13:12.used to be praiseworthy behaviours are no longer praiseworthy. Such as?
:13:13. > :13:18.Well, vigilantism, sorting things out for yourself. You'll probably
:13:19. > :13:23.kill me, my son Rafe is in the audience, it is an ongoing debate I
:13:24. > :13:27.have with him. If you have an issue, don't go and sort it out yourself,
:13:28. > :13:30.go and talk to somebody, involve somebody. The people who get on in
:13:31. > :13:34.society and to a degree that is women, have learned very early on
:13:35. > :13:39.that you go and involve, you have a social response to a social problem.
:13:40. > :13:44.And what is going on right now is that young, working-class boys are
:13:45. > :13:50.being betrayed by society. Is this gender stereotyping? I'm listening
:13:51. > :13:54.to a world that doesn't really exist. Most parents go in, you want
:13:55. > :13:58.good teachers in your school who teach your children. I don't go into
:13:59. > :14:03.my school and go, there's a white child or a black child or a Chinese
:14:04. > :14:08.child. I think you just want good teaching, you want education to be
:14:09. > :14:13.invested in, teachers paid properly, bad teachers to be fired. I think we
:14:14. > :14:18.are barking up the wrong tree, trying to divide ourselves into
:14:19. > :14:19.black, white, Muslim. But our society does, and that's the awful
:14:20. > :14:27.thing. Everything you said I think I would
:14:28. > :14:32.I would agree with, but this desire to take going to University as a key
:14:33. > :14:35.criterion. We are not talking about getting into Oxbridge, but going to
:14:36. > :14:41.university. Can we mind ourselves that for many people, particularly
:14:42. > :14:45.people who do not have a lot of family relations, cultural capital,
:14:46. > :14:49.histories of that sort, going to university can mean little more than
:14:50. > :14:52.accruing massive debt. Leaving university, as I've seen our
:14:53. > :14:58.children do, and their friends, and not having a job. It is another
:14:59. > :15:03.debate, but this notion of, it seems to be saying, Jane, and it is
:15:04. > :15:08.fascinating, traditional, historical, self definition one of
:15:09. > :15:11.ot it is to be a man, what it is to be masculine, to be macho. Are you
:15:12. > :15:16.saying those have changed and need to change? Yes, we live in a
:15:17. > :15:20.different world from 30 years ago. 30 years ago you could get a
:15:21. > :15:24.criminal record and still walk into a job. Nowadays you get a criminal
:15:25. > :15:28.record for something at 19. That means that your first job or your
:15:29. > :15:31.second job is not going to happen. I was reading on the way in about
:15:32. > :15:36.somebody who got a criminal record, got a job in a hospital. It was
:15:37. > :15:43.fine. And then the hospital CRB checked and they were out. Can I go
:15:44. > :15:48.back to this, elite men letting down working class men? Let us look at
:15:49. > :15:58.high jinks in university, a club that some of our politicians use,
:15:59. > :16:03.the Bullingdon Club, George Osborne and Boris Johnson and David Cameron,
:16:04. > :16:07.bits of animal, which was strange and probably illegal. That's a cheap
:16:08. > :16:15.shot, and it is not what we are talking about. But it is part of it.
:16:16. > :16:18.You are talking about 0.1% who've that ridiculously elite lifestyle.
:16:19. > :16:24.We are talking about something separate. Whether we are talking
:16:25. > :16:30.about white boys or black boys or girls, black and white. White. Where
:16:31. > :16:34.I used to live, there were youth services, places to go, less
:16:35. > :16:40.difficulty getting jobs for unskilled workers. It's changed, and
:16:41. > :16:49.these are divisive changes. Let Jane finish her point. The point is that
:16:50. > :16:53.at the top we are fascinated by the bad boy image. Maybe George Osborne
:16:54. > :16:58.as a bad boy is not a very good image. But Johnny Depp, the stuff
:16:59. > :17:04.that's going on right now... He isn't here to defend himself and
:17:05. > :17:08.there is a solicitor! There's a certain sashay to being a bad boy,
:17:09. > :17:14.which you can be if you are up at the top of the scale. But at the
:17:15. > :17:20.bottom you cannot. That's interesting. What would you like to
:17:21. > :17:24.say? I think we need to move away at looking at this as solely a teaching
:17:25. > :17:28.problem. I think it comes from things like upbringing as well. I
:17:29. > :17:33.can certainly share my personal story. Anything other than going to
:17:34. > :17:38.university was not an option. I was brought up, told, go to school, get
:17:39. > :17:42.good grades, work hard. That's something that's so ingrained in my
:17:43. > :17:47.own culture that it made me go to university, made me work hard and
:17:48. > :17:51.get good grades. That's something I focused on throughout my childhood.
:17:52. > :17:54.It is different in some families. Some families it would be that
:17:55. > :17:59.University isn't the only option. It is not the be all and Ed all of
:18:00. > :18:04.education, you can go and do other things. We are seeing an increase in
:18:05. > :18:09.skills-based learning rather than just solely education. Do you
:18:10. > :18:12.perceive this as a problem, young, white, working class boys being
:18:13. > :18:18.discriminated against? Against?. No, I don't. Society is changing. Things
:18:19. > :18:24.are shifting. I think we are seeing a rise in things like emphasis being
:18:25. > :18:31.placed on going to construction or working in construction. Going to
:18:32. > :18:33.new industries and new industries flourishing, especially with the
:18:34. > :18:38.rise of climate change issues. We are seeing lots of new industries
:18:39. > :18:45.coming up. OK. Anyone else? Gentleman at the back in the blue...
:18:46. > :18:48.Back row, sorry. Firstly, the issue is poverty affects everyone
:18:49. > :18:52.regardless of their colour. As a head teacher in the West Midlands we
:18:53. > :18:58.accept those children which other schools reject. So we accept a lot
:18:59. > :19:03.of white students who really do not feel part of the system. Where we
:19:04. > :19:09.try and encourage them to learn is to get them involved in something
:19:10. > :19:13.that they are interested in. You can explain the girl-boy divide here,
:19:14. > :19:17.why girls are achieving more? Obviously the prospects for them in
:19:18. > :19:21.the work base is back in the coal days, where the man had to be the
:19:22. > :19:24.main bread winner. Now there is more independence, so there is going to
:19:25. > :19:31.be less of a reliance on your husband as the main earner. We have
:19:32. > :19:35.to look at how we retrain as a unique school, as a black head
:19:36. > :19:40.teacher brought up in a poor white area. We can see that poverty
:19:41. > :19:43.affects them all. It's about engaging them and pushing everyone
:19:44. > :19:51.forward. We are part of the UK and we need to work together.
:19:52. > :19:56.APPLAUSE APPLAUSE. I agree with quite a lot of the points, but I
:19:57. > :20:06.want to pick up on something you said earlier. The fact that white
:20:07. > :20:09.working class boys are disproportionately not get the same
:20:10. > :20:12.opportunities, and saying that's not a problem, I think you can't say
:20:13. > :20:17.it's not a problem. It is a problem. Problem. Problem. That shouldn't
:20:18. > :20:20.eclipse the fact that girls, people from minority groups, they are still
:20:21. > :20:24.struggling as well. It shouldn't eclipse the fact that they are the
:20:25. > :20:30.same as you. APPLAUSE APPLAUSE. Poverty does
:20:31. > :20:34.affect everyone. This current Government isn't allowing students
:20:35. > :20:39.from low income backgrounds to access universities. The way you pay
:20:40. > :20:44.it back is more difficult. They are, even if it is not in a material
:20:45. > :20:48.sense, that barrier for people from low income backgrounds, it is
:20:49. > :20:57.terrible. APPLAUSE. There's a cultural issue
:20:58. > :21:02.here. If you laid out those statistics, they are pretty stock.
:21:03. > :21:05.Black Caribbean boys, Asian boys, also have a macho culture. All that
:21:06. > :21:09.stuff applies to them as well. There is clearly a problem with white
:21:10. > :21:14.working class boys. That's comfortable for some people to deal
:21:15. > :21:20.with, for political or idealogical reasons. Why is that? It is not
:21:21. > :21:25.something we have wanted to look at. But it is an issue and it exists.
:21:26. > :21:29.Maybe it exists because in our culture to be a white working class
:21:30. > :21:33.boy isn't to be part of an admired group any more. That's one of the
:21:34. > :21:39.things that's changed. These boys go out into the world and they are the
:21:40. > :21:43.one group everyone can make fun of. The one group everyone is assume
:21:44. > :21:50.they have something wrong with them. Them. They are chavs, all the words
:21:51. > :21:55.people use. Particularly white working class boys, they are the
:21:56. > :21:57.bottom of the pile. No-one cares about them or thinks they are
:21:58. > :22:12.valuable. APPLAUSE APPLAUSE. Nicola, bottom of
:22:13. > :22:17.the pile? There is an issue in terms of achievement of disadvantaged
:22:18. > :22:22.groups. When you look at the reporting of this, we often talk
:22:23. > :22:25.about pupils on free school meals. Free school meals doesn't correlate
:22:26. > :22:31.with being working class. It is not the same thing. We know there's
:22:32. > :22:37.differences in the update of free schools meals. It is imprecise, so
:22:38. > :22:41.we blur the definitions. It is important to acknowledge that. What
:22:42. > :22:44.I would say, picking up on a point made earlier, yes we need a
:22:45. > :22:50.conversation about the experience of white working class boys. However,
:22:51. > :22:55.we also need the think about our understanding of discrimination. So
:22:56. > :23:01.let me say this. Are white working class discriminated in the sense of
:23:02. > :23:05.disproportionalty of stop and search, in the figures from being
:23:06. > :23:12.excluded from school, in mental health figures? And rand Domly
:23:13. > :23:16.looking at the group 16-24, we know black boys, young black men are
:23:17. > :23:21.two-and-a-half times more likely to be un-I unemployed than their white
:23:22. > :23:23.counterpart. So the question is are white working class boys
:23:24. > :23:28.discriminated in a structural way? No. Are there issues to be discussed
:23:29. > :23:32.in relation to their social mobility? Yes.
:23:33. > :23:37.APPLAUSE APPLAUSE. No structural discrimination. What we are doing
:23:38. > :23:41.here is playing a game I call the Oppression Olympics. The problems of
:23:42. > :23:45.white boys are discounted because they are not as bad as the
:23:46. > :23:49.problems... I wish we could get out of this mind-set where it is tit for
:23:50. > :23:54.tat. These boys need help, quickly, or they'll be doomed to a life of
:23:55. > :24:01.servitude, to a life of... Servitude? Serving is, low-paid
:24:02. > :24:07.jobs, low-paid contracts. Competing with minimum wage. 20% of these boys
:24:08. > :24:10.leave school with five GCSEs, the lowest in Britain of any
:24:11. > :24:14.demographic. You are shaking your head so much, I'm worried about his
:24:15. > :24:24.neck. Alex, I will be with you. What's up? Again they are pandering
:24:25. > :24:30.to the tactic of making ethnic minorities not the subject of this.
:24:31. > :24:35.This. They are trying to bring white minorities into the while excluding
:24:36. > :24:40.ethnic minorities. We should help everyone I believe. It negates all
:24:41. > :24:46.the statistics that show that ethnic minority with worse off. But these
:24:47. > :24:50.stats clearly don't. If you drive most people down it will affect
:24:51. > :24:55.people in different ways but it will damage more and more people.
:24:56. > :25:01.APPLAUSE APPLAUSE. Alex, you are a writer and bon we have our. U are a
:25:02. > :25:07.writer and bon we have our. -- a bon viveur. You run nightclubs. When it
:25:08. > :25:10.comes to employment, what is your view? You are an extremely
:25:11. > :25:13.intelligent person. I'm listening to you and you are talking about
:25:14. > :25:18.problems that exist in the real world. But the reality is I don't
:25:19. > :25:22.see white kids in my world and feeling discriminated against. That
:25:23. > :25:26.doesn't really exist. Whilst I do have issues with other minorities in
:25:27. > :25:29.the Camden area of North London, where we are discriminated quite
:25:30. > :25:33.clearly by the police and other parts of society. I think what
:25:34. > :25:37.upsets me is you see everyone speaking here and we all share the
:25:38. > :25:41.same thing: Children should be educated to the best of our ability
:25:42. > :25:47.by great teachers in great schools. This is nonsense. This entire
:25:48. > :25:50.conversation annoys the hell out of me, because I think it's rubbish. It
:25:51. > :25:57.is mitting the point. We need teachers who are respected in
:25:58. > :26:02.society and are paid the same level as lawyers and bankers, who lost us
:26:03. > :26:06.millions of pounds. And nurses are losing their bursaries to train. We
:26:07. > :26:10.have various schemes in my nightclub, because nightclubs are
:26:11. > :26:15.quite a good way of bringing people into a community. Is there a work
:26:16. > :26:20.ethic? Is it a myth that young working class boys don't have the
:26:21. > :26:25.same work ethic in No, it is nonsense. It is nothing to do with
:26:26. > :26:30.race or religion. It is rubbish. We have good teachers, good schools.
:26:31. > :26:34.What I would say, picking up on your point, Alex, is what we haven't
:26:35. > :26:39.thought about is the way that constant changes to education policy
:26:40. > :26:42.place pressures on teachers and schools such that they don't have
:26:43. > :26:49.the space and creativity to speech in the way that they want. So that
:26:50. > :26:56.in turn does impact irrespective of the colour of the child.
:26:57. > :27:06.APPLAUSE APPLAUSE. I think I owe you a plug here for your book. Author of
:27:07. > :27:10.The Myth of Meritocracy. We absolutely shouldn't separate and
:27:11. > :27:17.try to pit white working class boys against other groups. This idea that
:27:18. > :27:20.white working class boys don't suffer structural disadvantage, it
:27:21. > :27:28.is not because they are white and working class. Can a white working
:27:29. > :27:32.class boy do an earn ternship in politics in no, absolutely not. They
:27:33. > :27:36.are not discriminated against because they are white, but they are
:27:37. > :27:41.generally looked down on in society. They don't have the financial
:27:42. > :27:45.resources. Why are the girls doing better than the boys, James? It is
:27:46. > :27:49.partly to do with this idea of there's a loss of man's place in the
:27:50. > :27:54.modern economy, with the loss of industry. There are issues
:27:55. > :27:59.especially around schooling as well in terms of it's cool to mess about.
:28:00. > :28:04.I remember when I was at school it was cool to mess about. There aren't
:28:05. > :28:09.the jobs when you leave school that you naturally go into. We have to
:28:10. > :28:14.recognise that class is as much a disadvantage as things like
:28:15. > :28:28.ethnicity and gender and sexuality. We mustn't forget that.
:28:29. > :28:33.APPLAUSE APPLAUSE. Karl Marx said it is a matter of conscienceness. You
:28:34. > :28:35.are not political bedfellows with the current administration but they
:28:36. > :28:40.did something interesting this week, David Cameron and his colleague,
:28:41. > :28:44.they said you have to ask what school you went to? You've got to
:28:45. > :28:51.put it on the form. But as a signal development, is it one that you
:28:52. > :28:56.welcome? Eton discriminates but you have the ability to pay, so there's
:28:57. > :29:00.a good argument to be made for leverling the playing field in terms
:29:01. > :29:11.of employment. Politics is a good example where class has dropped off
:29:12. > :29:15.the agenda. Last year there were more female MPs and ethnic minority
:29:16. > :29:19.MPs. But there are more public school boys in Parliament. We've
:29:20. > :29:33.gone backwards. If we were to look back at the
:29:34. > :29:41.previous Cabinet, Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown, we would probably have
:29:42. > :29:45.to go to search human to find a cabinet so full of public school
:29:46. > :29:49.members. We have to go back to 1976 to find the high point of social
:29:50. > :29:56.mobility. What Alex said was important about teachers. 76? Yes,
:29:57. > :30:00.76. Dogs like teachers and social workers, which can be laid out for
:30:01. > :30:03.all youngsters who might face disadvantage, those jobs are being
:30:04. > :30:07.made more and more difficult for people to do, more and more
:30:08. > :30:12.challenging. The turnover and withdrawal is increasing and that's
:30:13. > :30:14.a real worry and a problem. We mustn't isolate this issue. It's a
:30:15. > :30:19.much bigger issue than we want to talk about on this debate. That's
:30:20. > :30:26.why I have a similar frustration to Alex. You mention your son is here,
:30:27. > :30:34.Rafe? You have had your hand up. I will give you the last word on this.
:30:35. > :30:40.I may sound a bit stupid, but at my school there is a boy who gets in
:30:41. > :30:43.trouble quite a lot and he's working-class, and on one side I
:30:44. > :30:46.think he does it kind of for popularity but on the other side I
:30:47. > :30:52.think he thinks he can get away with it because he has the excuse of
:30:53. > :30:57.being working class, in a way. An interesting point to ponder on, and
:30:58. > :31:07.an excellent one, too. Stereotypes. Thank you very much indeed, Rafe.
:31:08. > :31:10.We'll be back with you for the foreign aid debate, Rafe.
:31:11. > :31:12.You too can join in this morning's debates by logging
:31:13. > :31:14.on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions, then following the link to
:31:15. > :31:17.Or you can tweet using the hashtag bbctbq.
:31:18. > :31:20.Tell us what you think about our last Big Question too:
:31:21. > :31:23.Should the UK commitment to foreign aid be scrapped?
:31:24. > :31:26.Next Sunday we're back from Brunel University London
:31:27. > :31:29.for the last edition of this series, when we we'll be asking just one
:31:30. > :31:40.And, if you'd like to be in the audience in our next series,
:31:41. > :31:49.starting in January 2017, email audiencetbq@mentorn.tv.
:31:50. > :31:52.A year ago the UK Parliament voted to pledge all future governments
:31:53. > :31:55.to spend 0.7% of gross national income on foreign aid.
:31:56. > :31:58.Britain was the first country in the G7 to commit to this UN
:31:59. > :32:04.Only five other countries spent a higher percentage than we did,
:32:05. > :32:10.with Sweden topping the list at 1.4%.
:32:11. > :32:16.Last year the UK's spend of ?11.7 billion
:32:17. > :32:21.was second only to the USA, which spent ?20.1 billion
:32:22. > :32:28.in total, but only 0.17% of its national income.
:32:29. > :32:31.Now a petition has been raised against Britain's commitment to 0.7%
:32:32. > :32:33.which will be debated in the House of Commons next Monday.
:32:34. > :32:41.Should the UK's commitment to foreign aid be scrapped?
:32:42. > :32:52.Alex, you spent a lot of time in Africa, author of The Rift: the
:32:53. > :32:56.future of Africa. You told me something interesting about your
:32:57. > :33:02.time in Kenya and a Kenyan sitcom, which crystallises the issue? I was
:33:03. > :33:04.posted to Africa in 2006, and I was trying to understand where I was and
:33:05. > :33:10.I thought I would watch the Kenyan national sitcom. The character who
:33:11. > :33:15.was the ladies man with the flashy car and all the girlfriends, the
:33:16. > :33:21.rogue, his back story was that he was an aid worker. And that was sort
:33:22. > :33:26.of the beginning of scales falling from my high in how aid is viewed
:33:27. > :33:33.from where it is received. Which is, it's a great gig. This is the
:33:34. > :33:38.ultimate aspiration for a young graduate in Africa, is to work for
:33:39. > :33:42.an international NGO. Because the benefits are fantastic and the pay
:33:43. > :33:46.is extraordinary. Bit of a gravy train? Absolutely. Look, the UN is
:33:47. > :33:51.great because it publishes its salary details online. If you look
:33:52. > :33:57.at the guy who is a middle manager in eastern Congo, say someone in
:33:58. > :34:03.charge of logistics for the UN organisation, you add up his housing
:34:04. > :34:07.allowance, his $75,000 car, his business class flights, his three
:34:08. > :34:13.kids education, his lack of tax, he's only half $1 million a year.
:34:14. > :34:16.That's more than the US president. You can't tell me that a middle
:34:17. > :34:23.manager in eastern Congo has bigger responsibilities. It is saving
:34:24. > :34:30.lives, and it's a great... Is it? South Sudan is a new country created
:34:31. > :34:32.in Africa by the humanitarian community, that was a humanitarian
:34:33. > :34:37.Project run by a group of activists essentially. And it ate itself.
:34:38. > :34:44.Hundreds of thousands of people are dead, and many million are up for
:34:45. > :34:50.starvation. In Somalia in 2011, aid workers, at the behest of US
:34:51. > :34:55.political pressure, created a famine in which a quarter of a million
:34:56. > :34:59.people died. They put the food aid blockade on the south of the
:35:00. > :35:04.country, and a quarter of a million people died. Famine relief workers
:35:05. > :35:08.created the famine. Katie Wright, external affairs, Oxfam, that's
:35:09. > :35:13.pretty thought-provoking stuff from Alex. If we were to lessen that
:35:14. > :35:17.commitment, would people die? Yeah, of course people would die. People
:35:18. > :35:22.are being saved every day by aid spent by the UK Government or by
:35:23. > :35:27.organisations like Oxfam. I think if you are going to break this question
:35:28. > :35:29.down and tackle whether foreign aid should be scrapped, cherry picking
:35:30. > :35:33.some dramatic stories is not the way to do this. I think there are some
:35:34. > :35:37.fundamental questions we want to ask here today. The first is, do the
:35:38. > :35:41.British people want to live in a world with extreme poverty and
:35:42. > :35:45.hunger? Time and time again we see that the answer is no. When they
:35:46. > :35:49.respond to comic relief, when they respond to disasters, when they
:35:50. > :35:53.support organisations like Oxfam for the last nearly 50 years. This is a
:35:54. > :35:57.pretty clear statement they are making. But taxpayers income is
:35:58. > :36:02.different from comic relief. That's right. So the second important
:36:03. > :36:05.question is what's essentially the function of government? And I think
:36:06. > :36:08.it's to solve some of the big questions that the British people
:36:09. > :36:11.want solved. They've demonstrated poverty is one of those questions
:36:12. > :36:15.and so it's right that the UK Government takes an international
:36:16. > :36:18.developer and. And then do we need this target? I think yes we do
:36:19. > :36:23.because we need something robust to stand up to. The likes of the Daily
:36:24. > :36:29.Mail and whatever political campaign or sort of strongman comes along. A
:36:30. > :36:34.lot of people signed the Daily Mail petition, you cannot dismiss the
:36:35. > :36:37.concerns of an awful lot. We don't need to dismiss concerns, but what
:36:38. > :36:40.we are demonstrating time and time again is that this is not just about
:36:41. > :36:53.numbers or money, this is about lives. Why 0.37% like France, or
:36:54. > :36:57.America gives 0.17, Spain gives no .14%. None of those numbers are
:36:58. > :37:01.commensurate with the need. Right now in the world today there are 60
:37:02. > :37:05.million people experiencing drought and hunger because of the El Nino
:37:06. > :37:09.weather effects, nothing to do with man-made disasters, this is what's
:37:10. > :37:14.going on. And we don't have enough money. And we are leading the way.
:37:15. > :37:18.Alex, are you not proud of the fact that of the G-7 we are giving the
:37:19. > :37:21.largest percentage of aid, is that not a great symbol for our new role
:37:22. > :37:27.in the world? Of course that's great. And I'd think anybody would
:37:28. > :37:33.say being a mean person is a good idea. Of course we all want to be
:37:34. > :37:37.generous and we want to help those that can't help themselves. What I'm
:37:38. > :37:42.hearing, though, is what really frustrates people in Africa, is no
:37:43. > :37:46.mention of Africans. Where are the Africans or the Bengali 's or the
:37:47. > :37:50.Nepalese in this debate? What we are talking about when we talk about aid
:37:51. > :37:57.is the size of our generosity, how wonderful we might be, the size of
:37:58. > :38:01.our concern. I'm sorry, that's a real stereotyping of the aid
:38:02. > :38:10.industry. Where is the recipient in this? The chorus in Africa now, as
:38:11. > :38:13.Africa grows pretty fast, it's the second fastest growing region in the
:38:14. > :38:20.world, the average African is now learning about $2000 a year, which
:38:21. > :38:27.is $200 more than the Indian to whom we no longer give aid. The chorus is
:38:28. > :38:32.furious self-determination, and part of that is no 28. If the very people
:38:33. > :38:37.to whom you a helping our same please don't. Do they feel
:38:38. > :38:42.patronised? Yes. Aid can be crushing, it takes away your ability
:38:43. > :38:47.to direct your own life. You said there were a lot of cliches. There
:38:48. > :38:50.are a lot of cliches and it is an old-fashioned understanding. Aid
:38:51. > :38:55.agencies like Oxfam and colleagues are at the forefront of working out
:38:56. > :38:58.how to give aid in the way which is empowering to the communities we are
:38:59. > :39:00.working with. Every single aid programme thinks of the most
:39:01. > :39:07.creative ways possible to have feedback mechanisms to spread
:39:08. > :39:11.accountability. Is it transparent enough? Give us an example of that,
:39:12. > :39:16.something that has really worked. And also something that has worked
:39:17. > :39:20.in the terms of soft power that has increased the way they feel about
:39:21. > :39:25.us? While I can only talk from Oxfam's point of view. All
:39:26. > :39:29.humanitarian delivery of aid has easy ways like using text messages,
:39:30. > :39:34.SMS messaging, to report back, is the water getting to you, is this
:39:35. > :39:37.right? How is this toilet block that we've built working? We hear from
:39:38. > :39:42.women's groups, there is not enough lighting so we don't feel safe, so
:39:43. > :39:46.we put them in. The whole thing is a collaborative conversation with
:39:47. > :39:49.communities. Oxfam doesn't go into a community and say, you know what, we
:39:50. > :39:53.think you need a borehole. We talk to them about what they need. Often
:39:54. > :39:56.times we don't give them stuff, we work with them to demand from their
:39:57. > :40:02.own government who should be supplying the services. I will be
:40:03. > :40:06.with you shortly. Jonathan. The difficult thing in aid is delivery
:40:07. > :40:09.and there is a huge problem between intention and what actually gets
:40:10. > :40:13.done. Spending large amounts of money on aid doesn't mean more
:40:14. > :40:17.people necessarily get help. We have this enormous aid industry that
:40:18. > :40:20.employs half a million people worldwide. Organisations like Oxfam
:40:21. > :40:25.benefit not just from the public giving them money but also from the
:40:26. > :40:28.taxpayers money. When you argue for a greater aid budget, you are
:40:29. > :40:32.arguing for more money for your organisation, for the salaries of
:40:33. > :40:34.aid workers, for the thousands and thousands of mostly middle-class
:40:35. > :40:38.young people who go out to places like Africa, who would never dream
:40:39. > :40:45.of going to places that are poor in this country. Do you think that is
:40:46. > :40:49.the case? Well we have a UK poverty programme so that's really an true.
:40:50. > :40:53.I've been covering Africa for years, you see them everywhere, very
:40:54. > :40:57.colonial and patronising, chunk of people going up to tell Africans
:40:58. > :41:01.what to do. If you listen to African leaders, they say, no, you are doing
:41:02. > :41:04.this to make yourself feel good and look good. And you are making money
:41:05. > :41:10.doing it. This is an industry arguing for money. This is a fantasy
:41:11. > :41:14.projection. I've worked all over Africa, I do not recognise that will
:41:15. > :41:16.stop most aid at the governmental level is completely in partnership,
:41:17. > :41:22.it is supporting national programmes, it is supporting
:41:23. > :41:25.training of teachers. It is supporting agricultural extension
:41:26. > :41:29.workers and so on. It is just not true, and these fantasies about
:41:30. > :41:37.people paid half ?1 million. Let me just put this in. And then you can
:41:38. > :41:41.carry on. Just react to this. Paying for airstrips in Saint Helena where
:41:42. > :41:46.it is too windy to get on a plane, teaching stilt-walking in Venezuela,
:41:47. > :41:51.making art with plastic with street children in Nigeria. Nigeria has
:41:52. > :41:57.started a space programme, by the way. We hear about things like that,
:41:58. > :42:02.and it reminds me of Brewster 's millions where he gets $30 million
:42:03. > :42:09.and he's got to spend it in a month, doesn't that 0.7% rather bind people
:42:10. > :42:13.to that? You've got to spend it? No because it is well-planned and well
:42:14. > :42:15.managed. In any big programme anywhere there are things where
:42:16. > :42:18.things go wrong, there is mismanagement. When we see in
:42:19. > :42:24.hospital that things are going wrong, do we say close down the NHS?
:42:25. > :42:27.No, we say keep funding the NHS and fix that problem. I have campaigned
:42:28. > :42:31.for 30 years for better aid, not just more aid, and I think you can
:42:32. > :42:35.do both. These things are put out by those who basically don't say aid
:42:36. > :42:39.and say, here's an example of waste and what have you. It is not the
:42:40. > :42:45.fundamental thing, which works and delivers. It doesn't. Among
:42:46. > :42:48.industries is the least self-critical industry you can
:42:49. > :42:51.possibly imagine because it's marketing needs, we are saving
:42:52. > :42:56.lives, we are saving lives. It has nothing to do with saving lives.
:42:57. > :43:01.Katie told us it is absolutely saving lives. Most aid is
:43:02. > :43:05.development aid, over 90%, not humanitarian aid, it is not feeding
:43:06. > :43:10.the starving. It is things like the gems programme in Nigeria, growth in
:43:11. > :43:13.employment and markets. Teaching Nigerians how to be entrepreneurial?
:43:14. > :43:18.If you spent any time in Nigeria you know they don't have to be taught
:43:19. > :43:23.how to be entrepreneurial by a bunch of British foreign language
:43:24. > :43:28.graduates. Hands up? Lady in the striped shirt? Being from a Nigerian
:43:29. > :43:31.background I understand about foreign aid. I believe that the
:43:32. > :43:34.problem with foreign aid is that sustainability, you can have as much
:43:35. > :43:39.money as you want but if something is not sustainable then there's no
:43:40. > :43:43.point having it. That's the main problem with foreign aid I see when
:43:44. > :43:47.I am in Nigeria. That's one of the things I think we need to look at.
:43:48. > :43:50.What kind of things are you seeing? In terms of sustainability, you can
:43:51. > :43:54.have all the programmes and those things, but if they don't blast on
:43:55. > :43:58.and actually stay within the culture of the people then it's never going
:43:59. > :44:05.to work. It's just going to go there, make your country look good
:44:06. > :44:12.and that is it. Hang on, James. Go on? Yes, I think the UK's commitment
:44:13. > :44:14.to foreign aid is very good, I appreciate how the government is
:44:15. > :44:20.actually giving more to other countries. I want to mention one
:44:21. > :44:25.thing, why in certain countries do you need aid? Just in general terms?
:44:26. > :44:29.If somebody is injured, we give that person aid. Just compensate, yes,
:44:30. > :44:35.there is an injury, yes, do something. I would like to say one
:44:36. > :44:41.thing. There was a great point made regarding, for example, developing
:44:42. > :44:48.countries like India or others, we don't actually need developmental
:44:49. > :44:53.aid. Obviously the economies are becoming big, we are emerging
:44:54. > :45:00.economies, but the thing here is the foreign aid should just in a way of
:45:01. > :45:04.Britain to say, OK, there was a colonial empire, these things
:45:05. > :45:10.happen, for example we got the whole of the Commonwealth, just to say
:45:11. > :45:16.that's it guys, this is our paid. A moral obligation? Our moral debt.
:45:17. > :45:23.For maybe what has gone on in the past? Yes. We did a British empire
:45:24. > :45:27.debate a few weeks ago and those points did come up. I suppose you
:45:28. > :45:32.could say with climate change, we led the world with fossil fuels in
:45:33. > :45:37.the 18th and 19th century, we kicked that one off. Not that we were to
:45:38. > :45:44.know at the time, to be fair. Foreign aid is not infinite. It is
:45:45. > :45:50.not going to last forever. In answer to the first person's point, where
:45:51. > :45:57.are the Bengalis, I am from Bangladesh. It did receive foreign
:45:58. > :46:05.it, including from DFID. It can stand on its own two feet and reduce
:46:06. > :46:10.its dependency on foreign aid. We gave aid to India, and that will
:46:11. > :46:14.stop, because it is a growing economy. It is investing in us. The
:46:15. > :46:19.third point I would like to make, I think there's a link between foreign
:46:20. > :46:23.policy and global security, with the advent of terrorism. The question I
:46:24. > :46:27.would like to ask the critics of foreign aid is, do you not believe
:46:28. > :46:33.that America should have given aid to Britain during the Second World
:46:34. > :46:37.War? Harry, do you want to come in on this, not necessarily that
:46:38. > :46:43.particular point. From the TaxPayers' Alliance. What's been
:46:44. > :46:50.said a few times, this 0. 0.% of input will be given in purpose ought
:46:51. > :46:57.toy. To me that implies we won't finish the job. And because it is
:46:58. > :47:01.0.7%, it seems if we spend a certain amount of money we'll achieve
:47:02. > :47:05.various aims. We'll be giving it for the rest of time, but doesn't that
:47:06. > :47:10.show that we won't achieve what we need, to bring these people out of
:47:11. > :47:16.poverty? The better way, greater value for taxpayers money, than
:47:17. > :47:21.throwing money at it. Which are? You can get rid of escalating trade
:47:22. > :47:25.tariffs, which do a huge amount of damage. That's absolutely not the
:47:26. > :47:32.case. Nobody wants there to be aid while we still need an aid budget it
:47:33. > :47:38.means that people are living in extreme poverty, 900 million people.
:47:39. > :47:43.We need to fix immediate problem, responding to disasters, building
:47:44. > :47:47.hospitals. We also need to have sustainability. That means working
:47:48. > :47:52.with the African Government. It is not true everyone in Africa is
:47:53. > :47:55.against aid. I work for an organisation, 2 million of whom are
:47:56. > :47:59.in Africa. They fight for the same targets that we are fighting for. UK
:48:00. > :48:03.aid is incredibly effective. It is subject to a rigorous review, and it
:48:04. > :48:08.is among the most transparent in the world. Are you proud of where we
:48:09. > :48:13.are? Very proud. And if we want an end to aid, we need other
:48:14. > :48:18.governments lifting themselves up to 0.7%, not us cutting our aid budget.
:48:19. > :48:22.APPLAUSE APPLAUSE. What I find disingenuous about this, living in
:48:23. > :48:26.Africa and India, most of my friend were aid workers, to be honest.
:48:27. > :48:32.These guys know that legitimacy is the live debate inside the aid
:48:33. > :48:36.world. Or precisely the lack of legitimacy, should we be doing this?
:48:37. > :48:40.Do we have a right to impose what our priorities are on foreign
:48:41. > :48:45.countries, around essentially displace them? These guys... This is
:48:46. > :48:49.a very live debate. It doesn't happen in public, because for aid
:48:50. > :48:55.groups business model, image, is all. You have to think of them as
:48:56. > :49:00.saving lives, otherwise they don't get any donations. But if we would
:49:01. > :49:04.have a bit more realism from the aid world I think it would help the
:49:05. > :49:11.debate move forward. I run an organisation that brings together
:49:12. > :49:15.over 500 organisations from Oxfam through to tiny organisations that
:49:16. > :49:19.are kitchen table organisations in this country. They represent all our
:49:20. > :49:23.faiths and different types of people. British people care about
:49:24. > :49:26.these issues and express it in different ways. We run a conference
:49:27. > :49:31.every year where all of these issues are there. Do come along, debate the
:49:32. > :49:36.issues. We do. It is not true there is no scrutiny. I think aid in
:49:37. > :49:45.Britain is probably the most scrutinised department of any. For
:49:46. > :49:53.every ?1 spent it is logged. Every time one of my members gets a grant
:49:54. > :49:57.it is logged. It has been shown that the Government getting taxpayers
:49:58. > :50:04.money to organisations crowds out private donations. That's been
:50:05. > :50:08.proven. Where is the incentive if you're to give to a charity, if you
:50:09. > :50:13.know the Government is already giving this money already? I will
:50:14. > :50:17.tell you what, we've got some hands up in the audience, if you will
:50:18. > :50:22.allow me defer to the audience. Good morning. I think we need to take a
:50:23. > :50:27.step back and remember why there's so much poverty in the world. Back
:50:28. > :50:30.to your point about climate change, we are a developed nation. We've
:50:31. > :50:36.done all of our developing, and we have the nerve to come up with this
:50:37. > :50:39.sustainable development goals and tell these developing nations they
:50:40. > :50:42.can't develop in the same way that we developed. They are seeing the
:50:43. > :50:47.aftermath of our Industrial Revolution. It is totally infair for
:50:48. > :50:53.us to tell them that you can develop in a Greenway, in a clean way. But
:50:54. > :51:00.we've contributed to so many greenhouse gases. It is moral duty
:51:01. > :51:05.and mea culpa. The gentleman in the grey T-shirt. I work for a charity
:51:06. > :51:10.in Britain. We develop young leaders here, but if we want to think about
:51:11. > :51:14.helping the world that we have in part impoverished we need to help
:51:15. > :51:18.them develop their own leaders, by sharing good practice.
:51:19. > :51:25.APPLAUSE APPLAUSE. Do you really think that if we were not to spend
:51:26. > :51:29.this ?12-odd billion elsewhere we would be spending it on the NHS in
:51:30. > :51:33.this country, on flood defences, that we would be spending it on
:51:34. > :51:39.pensions. Do you think that would be the case? The reason why so many
:51:40. > :51:43.people sign these petitions is it not the elephant in the room that
:51:44. > :51:49.lots of people think perhaps charity should begin at home. If we donated
:51:50. > :51:55.a fraction of 0.7% to, say, working class boys who are failing at
:51:56. > :51:59.school... It is not one or the other. Do you think there's a
:52:00. > :52:03.calibration there? There is certainly a moral problem between
:52:04. > :52:07.the Government spending ever increasing numbers in a time of
:52:08. > :52:11.austerity on foreign aid that often doesn't work, is often ineffective
:52:12. > :52:15.and in some cases makes things much worse, and at the same time not
:52:16. > :52:19.being able to spend money on cancer medicine for people, not being able
:52:20. > :52:24.to afford operations on the NHS. NHS. Yes it might be spent
:52:25. > :52:31.efficiently or effectively at home, but would it be released (Inaudible)
:52:32. > :52:36.The reason people are doubtful is because of the Hister cal campaigns
:52:37. > :52:43.of some newspapers. You poll people and they think we give 20 times the
:52:44. > :52:49.amount of aid we do. When they hear how much we actually give they are
:52:50. > :52:53.in favour and want to give more. We talk about this historic moral
:52:54. > :52:57.obligation but we forget when we are talking about climate change, it is
:52:58. > :53:01.not something that's happened, done, dusted, it is going on now. For the
:53:02. > :53:06.last 20 years the climate change people have talked about adaptation
:53:07. > :53:10.and mitigation, because the people who've enjoyed the fruits of our
:53:11. > :53:14.destroying the climate is us in the developed world, but people whose
:53:15. > :53:19.livelihoods are being wrecked, destroyed, are in the developing
:53:20. > :53:23.world. If you want to make the link, the big issue of this century will
:53:24. > :53:28.be water. Millions will be migrating because of water. If you think
:53:29. > :53:32.you've seen a problem of a few hundred thousands refugees crossing
:53:33. > :53:35.the Mediterranean, wait until the water starts running out.
:53:36. > :53:41.APPLAUSE APPLAUSE. Alex, go on. Climate change is actually a great
:53:42. > :53:47.example of a change in Africa, a phenomenal change that's happened
:53:48. > :53:51.with no aid. There's a man in Mali called Jacoub, a farmer, who turned
:53:52. > :53:56.25 acres of desert into a forest over 20 years. He so amazed his
:53:57. > :54:00.neighbours that everybody copied. Now there are so many trees in the
:54:01. > :54:06.middle of the Sahara you can only see it from space. It is 200 million
:54:07. > :54:11.trees. And that was accomplished without 1 cent of aid. Down the road
:54:12. > :54:15.from where he lives is an Italian aid group that's tried to do the s
:54:16. > :54:19.tried to do the same and spent $100 million and has failed. The point
:54:20. > :54:23.is, if you try and impose, if you try and tell people what to do, if
:54:24. > :54:33.you don't have them invested in their own destiny, it will fail.
:54:34. > :54:40.APPLAUSE APPLAUSE. Raef wants to make another point. I think it is
:54:41. > :54:45.great that we help out charity and everything. Would like everything
:54:46. > :54:50.inside Britain, like the NHS, the Army and, like, our aid, do you
:54:51. > :54:57.think we can keep it up? Do you think we can keep all these things
:54:58. > :55:01.going? It is not a never-ending flow, and the taxpayer wants full
:55:02. > :55:06.accountability. It It sounds like the taxpayer is not doing too bad on
:55:07. > :55:11.accountability opposed to other policies. We have a 0.7% aid budget
:55:12. > :55:14.that's fighting against the effects of economic policies, including
:55:15. > :55:19.those pursued by this policy, globalising economic policies which
:55:20. > :55:22.are causing exactly the problems of rising temperatures and damage the
:55:23. > :55:26.planet we've been talking about. Not only that but we've seen this
:55:27. > :55:33.Government and its predecessor using aid policy to pursue those kinds of
:55:34. > :55:43.neoliberal economic policies, which is really, really damaging.
:55:44. > :55:47.(Inaudible) aid work ended a lot of the starvation issues in
:55:48. > :55:52.immediately. Corruption, another thing we haven't discussed, you talk
:55:53. > :56:00.about the aid budget. If you got rid of corruption in western companies
:56:01. > :56:04.in Africa, corruption from oil companies and big mobile phone
:56:05. > :56:09.companies in the Congo taking out the minerals. It is disgusting.
:56:10. > :56:14.Corruption is a far bigger issue than free aid and we don't want to
:56:15. > :56:18.talk about it because we have shares in these companies. It is a really
:56:19. > :56:23.important point. Nobody is saying aid on its own will solve the
:56:24. > :56:28.world's problems. It does include tackling corruption. We had an
:56:29. > :56:32.anticorruption policy in London, world leaders coming to talk about
:56:33. > :56:40.the important, systemic problems. Are they going to stop it? Aid feeds
:56:41. > :56:46.corruption all over Africa. It golfs to the most powerful, most corrupt
:56:47. > :56:51.people in these countries. You see it in Africa, in Pakistan. Hang on,
:56:52. > :56:55.you say it goes to the most corrupt people in those countries. Katy told
:56:56. > :57:00.us that it saves lives. Absolutely. Simon is right. Aid, let's be clear,
:57:01. > :57:05.is bun one tool in trying to end poverty. Getting trade right is an
:57:06. > :57:10.important tool. Tackling corruption, tackling inequality in the policies
:57:11. > :57:14.that fuel that, they are vital. What's so special about aid versus
:57:15. > :57:19.foreign investment versus trade is it is targeted at the poorest and on
:57:20. > :57:24.poverty relief. We've got a lot of countries growing in Africa, as Alex
:57:25. > :57:28.points out, but he makes the slightly confusing statistical thing
:57:29. > :57:31.of saying per capita growth. It is not the case. We've got vast
:57:32. > :57:35.inequalities in Africa which means the benefits of trade and in growth
:57:36. > :57:42.and of foreign direct investment are going to those in the top, who
:57:43. > :57:47.unfortunately are taking advantage of British tax havens. Aid is so
:57:48. > :57:51.special because it is directed at poverty reduction and at the
:57:52. > :57:56.poorest. That's why it will remain as a vital tool for many years to
:57:57. > :58:02.come. The last word, Jonathan. It is not that aid is a bad thing but aid
:58:03. > :58:07.over 60 years has been not been evidence based. It has handed money
:58:08. > :58:12.to corrupt dictators who handed it to their families and not the people
:58:13. > :58:16.who needed it. It is wrong for the taxpayer and the beneficiaries of
:58:17. > :58:20.aid if it is not done really well. And it hasn't been done that way.
:58:21. > :58:23.That's an argument for transparency. Give yourselves a round of applause.
:58:24. > :58:29.APPLAUSE APPLAUSE. Well done. As always, the debates will continue
:58:30. > :58:32.online and on Twitter. We're back from Uxbridge next Sunday
:58:33. > :58:34.for that special, asking: Mr Reginald Keys?
:58:35. > :59:11.We're from Army notification.