:00:00. > :00:00.Today on The Big Questions: Dead men's crimes.
:00:07. > :00:20.And the battle of the sexes on social media.
:00:21. > :00:28.Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions.
:00:29. > :00:30.Today we're live from Harris Academy in Peckham.
:00:31. > :00:41.Welcome, everyone, to The Big Questions.
:00:42. > :00:44.On Friday, an Old Bailey judge brought to an end any criminal
:00:45. > :00:46.proceedings against Lord Janner, who died in December.
:00:47. > :00:50.Lord Janner suffered from advanced Alzheimer's disease and was declared
:00:51. > :00:55.unfit to stand trial for 22 counts of sexual abuse against boys,
:00:56. > :01:01.said to be committed from the 1960s onwards.
:01:02. > :01:03.But there was to be a trial of the facts,
:01:04. > :01:06.to be held in April, where a jury would have decided
:01:07. > :01:08.if the allegations were true or false.
:01:09. > :01:12.Friday's decision means this will not go ahead.
:01:13. > :01:14.And, of course, civil claims against Lord Janner's estate
:01:15. > :01:17.for damages caused by the alleged crimes can and will continue.
:01:18. > :01:32.Matthew, criminal barrister and blogger, good morning to you. The
:01:33. > :01:36.trial of the facts has not gone ahead, so there will be no justice
:01:37. > :01:40.in a technical sense. Many of the victims, the alleged victims as you
:01:41. > :01:44.would say, will feel there has been no justice in a moral sense as well.
:01:45. > :01:49.They have not had justice, they have not had their day in court. That
:01:50. > :01:54.could equally apply, thinking about it, too Lord Janner's family. They
:01:55. > :02:02.have not had the chance in court to clear his name. You can understand
:02:03. > :02:04.why people are so angry? I can understand why people are angry and
:02:05. > :02:07.upset about the fact the trial will not take place with these very
:02:08. > :02:11.serious allegations. It is not right to say there will be no justice.
:02:12. > :02:15.There will be no criminal justice because criminal law does not allow
:02:16. > :02:19.the trial of a dead person but there are other ways of achieving justice.
:02:20. > :02:25.There is an inquiry set up to look into allegations of this sort, and
:02:26. > :02:31.the judge, justice god art, has said she will look into the allegations
:02:32. > :02:34.against Lord Janner. There is talk of witnesses giving evidence on
:02:35. > :02:40.television if they want to do that, in public, and she will no doubt
:02:41. > :02:46.come to a conclusion. Why not a trial of the facts? You cannot have
:02:47. > :02:50.a criminal trial without a defendant to defend himself. Our justice
:02:51. > :02:56.system requires two sides, the prosecution and defence, to give
:02:57. > :02:58.evidence, to challenge each other's evidence, to cross-examine
:02:59. > :03:04.witnesses, and out of that we hope that the truth will emerge. And
:03:05. > :03:11.criminal verdict will emerge. That could five years at least. We don't
:03:12. > :03:15.know how long it will take to deal with the aspect of the inquiry that
:03:16. > :03:20.will be looking at Lord Janner. It may take a long time, it may be that
:03:21. > :03:25.the judge may be able to give some preliminary verdict, some finding in
:03:26. > :03:30.relation to that. It could be before five years. That will be a matter
:03:31. > :03:38.for Justice Goddard. Chilcott is not a great press it doesn't -- great
:03:39. > :03:44.precedent. You cannot have a trial of the facts if the defendant is
:03:45. > :03:47.dead? Of course not but it is very disappointing for the victims in
:03:48. > :03:51.this case that they will never have the evidence heard in court.
:03:52. > :03:55.Especially in the Lord Janner case, previously the Crown Prosecution
:03:56. > :03:59.Service looked at the evidence and said there was a case to answer.
:04:00. > :04:02.Political elites, the police, everybody around Lord Janner has a
:04:03. > :04:06.case to answer about why they protected him for so long and why he
:04:07. > :04:13.was not brought to justice while he was alive. These crimes date back to
:04:14. > :04:18.the 60s. Trial of the facts could have got to the heart of that web
:04:19. > :04:22.protection? Yes. The victims wanted to be heard back in the 90s and over
:04:23. > :04:29.and again Lord Janner was protected from ending up in court. Projected
:04:30. > :04:33.in Parliament by MPs who sought to prop up his reputation. The police
:04:34. > :04:36.did not deal with it properly and they have accepted that. It is
:04:37. > :04:44.really disappointing for the victims that they never will get their
:04:45. > :04:48.evidence heard in court. Joshua? First of all it is not true that the
:04:49. > :04:52.alleged victims will not get their evidence heard in court if they go
:04:53. > :04:57.ahead as they plan to with civil proceedings. Secondly, as Matthew
:04:58. > :05:00.said, there is an inquiry. There is great misunderstanding about the
:05:01. > :05:04.trial of the facts. It would not have established whether or not Lord
:05:05. > :05:09.Janner was guilty. He would not have been in a position to put his
:05:10. > :05:12.defence. A trial of the facts is simply a procedure to make sure that
:05:13. > :05:17.somebody is not sent to a mental hospital indefinitely when no crime
:05:18. > :05:25.has been committed. It does not amount to a poor person's trial,
:05:26. > :05:30.trial in somebody's absence, it just establishes whether an offence was
:05:31. > :05:35.committed. Victims want their day in court. Tough. The criminal justice
:05:36. > :05:39.system is not there for that. It is to decide whether a person accused
:05:40. > :05:43.of a crime is guilty with all the defences available to it. It is not
:05:44. > :05:47.a poor man's public inquiry and not a way of delivering closure to
:05:48. > :05:56.alleged victims. That is not what a criminal trial is about. Peter,
:05:57. > :05:59.could you give us an idea in the light of this decision, in the wake
:06:00. > :06:05.of this decision, how the alleged victims feel about this decision
:06:06. > :06:10.that there will be no trial of the facts? Understandably devastated but
:06:11. > :06:13.can I put it into context because that is so important? A couple of
:06:14. > :06:18.days ago, and bear with me because I can go round the houses but I will
:06:19. > :06:23.be quick, and a couple of days ago Tim Peake was looking down at our
:06:24. > :06:30.tiny little polluted planet, where other until planet earth foundation
:06:31. > :06:34.initiated a movement that eradicated something like 50% of child death
:06:35. > :06:39.through starvation, on the planet today, that little planet, this
:06:40. > :06:43.planet, there is in excess of 1 billion children being abused every
:06:44. > :06:46.year. 1 billion. That is a lot of people, including hundreds and
:06:47. > :06:53.hundreds of thousands of children in this country. Anybody who has been
:06:54. > :06:58.seen... We are talking about one individual. There was a chance in
:06:59. > :07:03.1991 for that case. I am getting to that. Let me finish. Anybody who has
:07:04. > :07:07.been part of that Holocaust, because that is what it is, holocaust
:07:08. > :07:12.against our children, of which Lord Janner stands accused, and 20 years
:07:13. > :07:16.ago the CPS said there was overwhelming evidence that he should
:07:17. > :07:21.have been put towards the courts, and I think Dawn has explained the
:07:22. > :07:27.cover-ups and why it has not happened. So there should have been
:07:28. > :07:31.a trial of the facts? They're absolutely should. It is like
:07:32. > :07:35.looking back at the Nazis. OK, most of them are dead, thank God, that
:07:36. > :07:38.they committed the most horrendous crimes against humanity. Just
:07:39. > :07:42.because they are dead does not mean we cannot learn lessons and expose
:07:43. > :07:47.the truth, because the truth is what sets us free, and I say that as a
:07:48. > :07:54.Christian man, and the truth is what will help protect our children in
:07:55. > :07:59.the future. Joshua? You cannot try dead people. We did not try Jimmy
:08:00. > :08:03.Savile, we don't try dead people. They cannot defend themselves and
:08:04. > :08:07.they cannot be punished. You can have inquiries, you can take money
:08:08. > :08:11.from the estate perhaps, but you cannot put a dead person on trial. I
:08:12. > :08:20.really wish you wouldn't bring money into it, Joshua. Because I work at
:08:21. > :08:27.NAPAC and we hear from survivors of abuse every year and money does not
:08:28. > :08:32.come into it at all. So why are they doing? Because sometimes it is the
:08:33. > :08:36.only option. If you hit people where it hurts, and institutions that is
:08:37. > :08:39.in the pocket, then they might change. They have not changed.
:08:40. > :08:44.Children are no less safe today than they were 40 years ago, which is
:08:45. > :08:49.criminal. People want to sue and very often people who do that do not
:08:50. > :08:52.do it for the money and very often they give it to charity and make
:08:53. > :08:57.good use for it, and then there could be change. We have got to have
:08:58. > :09:01.change. We have over a million children in this country every year
:09:02. > :09:08.suffering abuse and it is an utter criminal outrage. I think something
:09:09. > :09:12.that might help with this is the realisation of our defamation laws.
:09:13. > :09:16.I did a post after Jimmy Savile died that I was attacked for. I said that
:09:17. > :09:24.the Jay Z scandals will come out now and he was barely cold but I did it
:09:25. > :09:29.anyway. -- jersey scandals. Everybody in the press knew, but why
:09:30. > :09:32.did they not write about it? Because of ridiculous libel laws. If they
:09:33. > :09:41.were relaxed, things would improve and we could bring people to
:09:42. > :09:43.justice. I know everybody hates journalists, but they do
:09:44. > :09:48.occasionally do good work and they bring these cases to public
:09:49. > :09:53.attention. If we had done this with Jimmy Savile and Lord Janner, they
:09:54. > :09:58.would have been tried when alive and the way to achieve that is to relax
:09:59. > :10:02.stupid libel laws. As a survivor, Peter, I know very well the
:10:03. > :10:06.brilliant work you have done, brave people, survivors who have come
:10:07. > :10:10.forward, and it is not easy. What do you say to those people who have
:10:11. > :10:14.gone out on a limb and said, come on, why has it taken until now for
:10:15. > :10:21.those people to come forward and talk about Lord Janner? Why has it
:10:22. > :10:25.taken so long? We haven't got time for me to explain everything about
:10:26. > :10:29.why children do not speak out when they are being raped, tortured,
:10:30. > :10:32.abused. What we do know is that eventually many of them, thank God,
:10:33. > :10:36.are feeling able and having the strength to come forward and speak
:10:37. > :10:39.out now, because that is one of the most powerful ways we will protect
:10:40. > :10:50.our children in the future, to speak out. Alan? We have to be careful
:10:51. > :10:55.about using hysterical language around child abuse, such as
:10:56. > :10:59.Holocaust. To me it is a holocaust. It is just not true. The whole point
:11:00. > :11:04.about the Lord Janner case is not whether we are trying a dead man or
:11:05. > :11:10.not. I think it is perverse to try a dead man. It is more about having
:11:11. > :11:12.emotional group therapy for the alleged victims and complainants.
:11:13. > :11:16.Actually the media has called them victims throughout when because
:11:17. > :11:23.there has been no case they are not victims yet until somebody is proven
:11:24. > :11:30.guilty. Alleged victims, yes. Are using the law, doing a case, or
:11:31. > :11:34.having emotional group therapy which results in hysterical reactions? Any
:11:35. > :11:39.more opinions in the audience? Nobody at this stage wants to come
:11:40. > :11:46.forward but Kate does. There's a surprise! Fancy that! Unfortunately,
:11:47. > :11:50.when it comes to running trials on people that have already died, it
:11:51. > :11:53.always comes down to what are we trying to achieve? I think it is
:11:54. > :11:57.important that victims get a chance to talk about the experience and it
:11:58. > :12:01.is really important to learn lessons and I think in a case like Lord
:12:02. > :12:04.Janner's there are probably good grounds for saying that some of
:12:05. > :12:08.those people around protecting him should be brought to trial. They may
:12:09. > :12:15.still be alive and able to stand trial. But on that, I think we also
:12:16. > :12:18.need to talk about the fact there is a limited amount of money to be
:12:19. > :12:22.spent on doing these things and we have to make sure we prioritise
:12:23. > :12:26.things first. We have to take to trial first those people that might
:12:27. > :12:33.still be on the streets and still be a threat and risk. What price
:12:34. > :12:36.justice? We are doing a bad job of that. We are spending more on
:12:37. > :12:41.Operation Yewtree than protecting young people that might currently be
:12:42. > :12:45.at risk and we need to change that. The idea that there is a Kabbalah of
:12:46. > :12:50.people that protected Lord Janner is completely unproven. It is being
:12:51. > :12:53.accepted by everybody who has spoken so far in this room that there is
:12:54. > :12:59.some sort of secret conspiracy to protect him in Parliament and the
:13:00. > :13:04.police. It is not secret. And the CPS. It is completely unproven and
:13:05. > :13:08.it needs to be said that the inquiry that Justice Goddard is holding is
:13:09. > :13:14.to try and establish exactly whether there is any such thing at all or
:13:15. > :13:18.whether it is the product of a rather overexcited imagination. I go
:13:19. > :13:22.on record to say that I don't believe for a moment that there is
:13:23. > :13:25.some sort of conspiracy to protect Lord Janner. I think probably it
:13:26. > :13:36.will be shown to be nonsense. I might be wrong. I hope not. Dawn? I
:13:37. > :13:42.think you will be proven wrong. I think this dismissive attitude
:13:43. > :13:48.towards victims... Would you ever say alleged victims in this case?
:13:49. > :13:55.Yes, I would. They have not been proven to be victims yet. Bear with
:13:56. > :14:00.me a second. I think calling alleged victims hysterical because of their
:14:01. > :14:04.word used is absolutely pathetic. It diminishes the experience. It
:14:05. > :14:09.diminishes the experience of abuse that causes this to happen. People
:14:10. > :14:12.did not come forward about Jimmy Savile and Lord Janner sooner
:14:13. > :14:17.because they were repeatedly told that their experiences were not
:14:18. > :14:20.abuse, over and again. We have to be very careful about how we talk to
:14:21. > :14:25.abuse victims about what they have experienced.
:14:26. > :14:30.Joshua, what about the idea of the establishment closing ranks on this
:14:31. > :14:33.one, institutions, the sustainability, politicians all
:14:34. > :14:38.along the way, and protecting their own? If that were true that would be
:14:39. > :14:43.bad, and I want to know whether it is true or not. The fact is because
:14:44. > :14:46.we've wasted the past ten months since the director of public
:14:47. > :14:54.prosecutions said there should be no prosecution, we don't yet have the
:14:55. > :14:58.report of a retired judge called Sir Richard Henriques, which will tell
:14:59. > :15:01.us what went wrong with the Crown Prosecution Service and what went
:15:02. > :15:05.wrong with the police investigation. It was the police and the Crown
:15:06. > :15:09.Prosecution Service that decided between them effectively that Janner
:15:10. > :15:13.wasn't going to be prosecuted. I'm not aware of any establishment
:15:14. > :15:21.cover-up. I'm not sure how that could be done. And what about hat
:15:22. > :15:25.about those wrongly accused - Field Marshal Bramall, Sir Leon Brittan
:15:26. > :15:28.and Sir Edward Heath. All were accused by anonymous people of child
:15:29. > :15:33.abuse. The police investigate and find there's nothing to it.
:15:34. > :15:36.Eventually, if the alleged defendants, potential defendants,
:15:37. > :15:40.are still alive they get around to telling them and the rest of us.
:15:41. > :15:46.Peter? If we don't expose the truth, if we don't put a spotlight on
:15:47. > :15:52.what's gone wrong in the past. And I hear what Joshua is saying about
:15:53. > :15:55.people being accused and not having evidence against them. We were
:15:56. > :16:03.talking earlier about the fact that we are going spend ?30,000 billion
:16:04. > :16:08.on Trident, or ?30,000... That was before we came on air, just for
:16:09. > :16:12.people watching. My vote would be that we divert some of that wasted
:16:13. > :16:15.money into better social services is, into the police, into all sorts
:16:16. > :16:23.of ways of protecting our children. APPLAUSE. This idea then that
:16:24. > :16:26.there's a certain momentum for this at the moment, Matthew, a certain
:16:27. > :16:31.climate. Do you think we are living in different times to an extent?
:16:32. > :16:35.Well, I do think there is, and I think that social media probably has
:16:36. > :16:39.a lot to do with it. The idea that there's some sort of conspiracy to
:16:40. > :16:46.protect paedophiles has been given a lot of mileage by social media and
:16:47. > :16:50.certain websites who seem to make a great deal of it. I think it is very
:16:51. > :16:55.dangerous, because it does lead to the sort of, if I may say so Peter,
:16:56. > :17:02.rather over the top language, talking about Holocaust of billions
:17:03. > :17:05.and people being protected by shadowy cabals of establishment
:17:06. > :17:10.figures, and I think it is something we've got to be careful about. I
:17:11. > :17:16.quite agree with Dawn we need to be very careful about the sort of
:17:17. > :17:22.language we use. Peter? I'm never hysterical about it. Cyril Smith is
:17:23. > :17:26.an example, Cyril Smith MP... He had a lot of friends around him who
:17:27. > :17:29.protected him, that's incontrovertible. The police were
:17:30. > :17:33.going to arrest that man years ago and Special Branch, under the orders
:17:34. > :17:38.of their political Masters, stepped in and prevented him from being
:17:39. > :17:44.apprehended. Therefore he could carry on raping children. And Savile
:17:45. > :17:49.had a lot of friends in high places didn't he. The fact that somebody
:17:50. > :17:54.has friends in high place doesn't mean that those friends in high
:17:55. > :17:59.places are protecting them. I spend quite a lot of my time not just
:18:00. > :18:03.defending people accused of crimes against children but prosecuting
:18:04. > :18:08.people with crimes against children. Very quite a lot of contact with the
:18:09. > :18:12.police and CPS. Not once has anyone in the police or CPS ever, over the
:18:13. > :18:15.many years I've been involved in this sort of thing, suggesting to
:18:16. > :18:19.me, we should go soft on a particular individual because he's
:18:20. > :18:26.friendly with a Freemason or with a senior politician. It's, in my
:18:27. > :18:29.experience, for what it's worth, and it doesn't prove anything, it is
:18:30. > :18:34.complete nonsense. Do you think some people are seriously in it for the
:18:35. > :18:38.money? I've no doubt some are in it for the money. I've no doubt that
:18:39. > :18:42.the majority are not. Certainly money plays a part with some people.
:18:43. > :18:45.Dawn? I find that quite offensive. There are much easier ways to make
:18:46. > :18:53.money from the criminal justice system. I've done some work on cash
:18:54. > :18:59.for crash scheme where is you drive into a car. Car. But coming forward
:19:00. > :19:03.and talking about your abuse experiences, alleged or otherwise,
:19:04. > :19:07.and pinpointing one individual seems a high-risk strategy. I think a lot
:19:08. > :19:11.of people are worried there's a witch-hunt around this, when what I
:19:12. > :19:16.see is people and our society accepting that child abuse has been
:19:17. > :19:20.condoned tacitly for decades and people are finally beginning to
:19:21. > :19:25.understand what happened and it wasn't OK and we shouldn't stand for
:19:26. > :19:28.this. The standards have changed. Thank you very much indeed for your
:19:29. > :19:32.thoughts on that particular debate. APPLAUSE.
:19:33. > :19:34.If you have something to say about that debate,
:19:35. > :19:37.log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions, and follow the link to where you can
:19:38. > :19:43.We're also debating live this morning from South London: Can
:19:44. > :19:50.And later, does social media reveal men's hatred for women?
:19:51. > :19:55.I guarantee there'll be strong feelings on both sides of that
:19:56. > :19:58.debate from people who've been involved in some very interesting
:19:59. > :20:01.exchanges on social media. So get tweeting or emailing on those
:20:02. > :20:04.topics now or send us any other ideas or thoughts you may
:20:05. > :20:07.have about the show. Organised by the Bahai faith,
:20:08. > :20:12.its aim is to recognise "the oneness of humankind through the belief
:20:13. > :20:15.that religion must be Clearly they're not regular viewers
:20:16. > :20:35.of The Big Questions! Fidelma, hello. Hi. Your message,
:20:36. > :20:39.many people will think your message is absolutely inspiring. This is the
:20:40. > :20:47.Bahai religion. You were a Catholic. Yes. But came a Bahai, from Northern
:20:48. > :20:54.Ireland. I'm sure people still say, are you a Protestant Bahai or a
:20:55. > :20:59.Catholic Bahai... I still get that! LAUGHTER. Tell us about the truth.
:21:00. > :21:04.From the Bahai perspective, yes, the idea of religion as one force is
:21:05. > :21:08.very much fundamental to Bahai belief. It is the understanding that
:21:09. > :21:13.all religion are like chanters of one book. There's a progressive
:21:14. > :21:18.nature to religion. Religions come at different time, or the founders
:21:19. > :21:23.of different religions come at different times in the world. Time
:21:24. > :21:26.appropriate. Absolutely, to bring out the best potential of human
:21:27. > :21:34.beings to be the best they can be and to serve the world. So this idea
:21:35. > :21:39.of Bahai... Who? The founder of the Bahai faith, over 100 years ago,
:21:40. > :21:46.said religions are like the rays of one sun and they proceed from the
:21:47. > :21:49.same sun source. All religions? All the world's great religions or the
:21:50. > :21:56.divine teachers come from one source. So Adam, Abraham, Moses,
:21:57. > :22:00.Jesus, Mohammed, Krishna, sorry if I've left anyone out. That's a good
:22:01. > :22:05.list. That's what you are saying. Yes, that all of these divine
:22:06. > :22:09.educators come from the same one source, with the same spiritual
:22:10. > :22:12.messages. What changes are the social teachings throughout the
:22:13. > :22:16.ages. And they are applied in different ways to accommodate the
:22:17. > :22:21.different and respond to the different needs of humanity that is
:22:22. > :22:26.changing down through the ages. Oh, so you see, many people will love
:22:27. > :22:32.that idea. You are a director of Reform. Yes. What a wonderful
:22:33. > :22:40.thought, many people might not believe it but for those who do you
:22:41. > :22:42.go to Heaven, and it is Buddhist, is Buddhist, Protestant, Catholics,
:22:43. > :22:46.Sunni, Shia - you name it, they are, there and not in different rooms,
:22:47. > :22:50.altogether. Altogether. Is that not a wonderful thought? It is a
:22:51. > :22:55.wonderful idea. A lovely thought. Isn't it beautiful? But I think it
:22:56. > :23:00.doesn't go to the heart of the differences between the different
:23:01. > :23:03.teachings of all those people, and it really contradicts the heart of
:23:04. > :23:11.Christianity. And that's one of the problems. The only way is to be
:23:12. > :23:17.through Christ? Jesus says, I am the way, the truth and the light, and
:23:18. > :23:22.no-one comes to the Father except through me. Other faiths don't
:23:23. > :23:28.believe fundamentally that we are fundamentally good people and we can
:23:29. > :23:35.get better. Original sin. So the only way to get into the celestial
:23:36. > :23:40.realm is through Christ? Only through Jesus Christ on the cross.
:23:41. > :23:46.So Muslims, Buddhists, they have had it? Whether we have faith, we need
:23:47. > :23:52.Jesus to die for us. Christians might be wrong, but Christians can't
:23:53. > :23:56.be right and everyone else be right. That just doesn't work. We could be
:23:57. > :24:00.wrong. Christ maybe didn't need to die on the cross. That's quite
:24:01. > :24:06.possible. Okay, you accept you might be wrong? Yes, we have faith. I've
:24:07. > :24:18.got a faith you can join, the Bahai faith over there. I'm convinced by
:24:19. > :24:21.the discussion we've just had. Reverend Peter Owen Jones, you've
:24:22. > :24:27.looked at this stuff. Do you think that all favourites are barking up
:24:28. > :24:33.the same tree, or are they just barking? What do you think? Do you
:24:34. > :24:40.go with the Bahai or with Suzi? I think all faiths are asking the same
:24:41. > :24:45.questions. There we are. And, those are important questions. I feel that
:24:46. > :24:50.as part of the freedom of being a human being we need to be free to
:24:51. > :24:55.ask those questions. What it is to love, what it is to seek justice,
:24:56. > :25:00.what it is to experience grace, what it is to experience gratitude. These
:25:01. > :25:07.are very important human questions. This is about human stuff. I think
:25:08. > :25:16.where it starts to unravel and turn ugly is where one faith believes
:25:17. > :25:25.that it has the right to impose that view on others in anyway that it
:25:26. > :25:32.seeks. I learnt over time that the religions that I felt comfortable
:25:33. > :25:40.with were ones that were really expressing love in action. Yes!
:25:41. > :25:45.APPLAUSE. And those... The religions that were trying to convert me to
:25:46. > :25:50.their perspective, at the expense of everything else, that I wasn't to
:25:51. > :25:55.look left, I wasn't to look left, I was to concentrate on that and that
:25:56. > :26:02.alone. At that point I became very uncomfortable. So it was those with
:26:03. > :26:06.certainty? Yes, those with certainty can turn toxic very quickly
:26:07. > :26:11.settlement. Is it one God? Thoughts from the audience, the gentleman in
:26:12. > :26:17.the stripy shirt. Couldn't the one sun from which those rays are
:26:18. > :26:22.emanating be humanity other than humanity? And couldn't the
:26:23. > :26:26.narratives pull people culturally together but between cultures apart
:26:27. > :26:33.be the problem rather than the solution? Good morning to you. I'm
:26:34. > :26:36.from London Black Atheists. We don't believe in religion. We think
:26:37. > :26:40.religion makes a load of claims for itself which are absolutely false
:26:41. > :26:45.and none of them have ever been proven to be true. There is no doubt
:26:46. > :26:50.at all that if you were to follow religions you would lose your way
:26:51. > :26:54.rather than finding your way. You would find lies instead of truth,
:26:55. > :27:03.and you would probably die instead of being led to life.
:27:04. > :27:08.APPLAUSE. OK. The great teachers, Krishna, Mohammed and Jesus and
:27:09. > :27:10.Dawkins... LAUGHTER ITE
:27:11. > :27:15.LAUGHTER They are all - I love Richie, a great guest on the
:27:16. > :27:20.programme. I just had a thought, a rare thing but I did, Fidelma, which
:27:21. > :27:25.is that you talk about all the great teachers that have been sent. I gave
:27:26. > :27:31.that list of the great teachers through time, but then I thought,
:27:32. > :27:37.what about Joseph Smith, who for example from the Mormon religion,
:27:38. > :27:41.who met the angel Moroni thrice and was given gold plates? Would he
:27:42. > :27:47.qualify as someone who was sent? Not... No, we wouldn't see Joseph
:27:48. > :27:51.Smith... You are drawing a line aren't you?
:27:52. > :27:56.APPLAUSE But we would say he was an inspired person but not as a
:27:57. > :28:05.manifestation of God. How can you tell? I guess it is where Bahais say
:28:06. > :28:09.investigate truth for yourself. Look at it with a searchingy with a
:28:10. > :28:16.scientific approach. Peter said the thing that puts people off religion
:28:17. > :28:24.is when the dogma and teachings are shoved down your throat. So was
:28:25. > :28:30.Bahai the last prophet. You know the hand game like that, as to who is
:28:31. > :28:36.the last prophet? The latest but not the last in this progressive line.
:28:37. > :28:43.Just like educators in a school... Kate Smurthwaite, quickly. Want to
:28:44. > :28:45.take issue with one thing that you say, Fidelma, religion as a
:28:46. > :28:51.progressive force. There are a handful of occasions, literally a
:28:52. > :28:57.handful when religion historically has done something progressive. But
:28:58. > :29:02.there are overwhelming examples where religion has been a force
:29:03. > :29:10.against progressiveness. There's a lot of homophobia out there and it
:29:11. > :29:14.is religiously motivated. And women's rights, driven by religion.
:29:15. > :29:18.What Suzi says is right. If you look at these religions in detail they
:29:19. > :29:26.are not all compatible. It is impossible to sit there and say, we
:29:27. > :29:33.all believe in the same God, but you practice in a way that's gender
:29:34. > :29:37.apartheid, and homophobia. Even if there is one true God, or what we've
:29:38. > :29:40.seen is the same kind of delusions occurring in lots of different
:29:41. > :29:44.places around the world, and we should accept that they are
:29:45. > :29:46.delusions and move on in a humanist way and with progressive social
:29:47. > :29:54.values. APPLAUSE.
:29:55. > :30:00.All those great teachers, I will not ask you about Hubbard, we would not
:30:01. > :30:04.include him! The Muslim Council of Britain. You converted from
:30:05. > :30:12.Christianity to Islam. Why do you believe Islam is right, Ameena
:30:13. > :30:16.Blake? Is it the true religion? It is to me. I was brought up as a
:30:17. > :30:20.Christian and I loved the teachings of the Bible but I am also a
:30:21. > :30:24.pragmatist and I wanted things to be proved to me before I followed them
:30:25. > :30:28.and so I was looking for the truth. I had a friend who was Muslim and
:30:29. > :30:32.she told me about the Koran and I was looking to it, and there are so
:30:33. > :30:42.many scientific facts in the Koran which was written 1400 years ago by
:30:43. > :30:45.an illiterate guy in the desert. I could not deny it was the truth.
:30:46. > :30:48.They are things that he could not have known. A lot of it was written
:30:49. > :30:54.before by the ancient Greeks. But he might not have heard that. He could
:30:55. > :30:59.not know that. Merchant roots? Even if that was the case, there is no
:31:00. > :31:10.way he would have had the chance to have access to it. Many of the
:31:11. > :31:14.scientific things in the Koran are only now being found to be true.
:31:15. > :31:20.They thought the world was flat, laid out like a carpet. They say it
:31:21. > :31:25.is X-shaped, which is scientifically true. The Western scholars would say
:31:26. > :31:31.the world is flat and if you go far enough, you fall off the edge. What
:31:32. > :31:37.is the clincher for you for being a Muslim? I can ask any question of
:31:38. > :31:40.Islam and it will give me a logical and scientifically proven answer.
:31:41. > :31:48.Very much in this debate, the essence of faith, I think personally
:31:49. > :31:52.Islam is correct. Other people will debate that with me and disagree
:31:53. > :31:57.with me, and that is the beauty of religion. We must absolutely be
:31:58. > :32:02.tolerant of other religions or non- religions. We talk about religion
:32:03. > :32:07.but we forget about people's other beliefs, if they are capitalist or
:32:08. > :32:12.whatever. But believes have changed with science and most modern
:32:13. > :32:16.religions accept science, evolution, these things, because they really
:32:17. > :32:23.have no choice, have they? Absolutely. If you look back at
:32:24. > :32:26.Darwin, for example, there was a massive clash between his theories
:32:27. > :32:32.and religion at the time. Many people got on board with it.
:32:33. > :32:35.Absolutely. Because Darwin's theory contradicted what the Bible was
:32:36. > :32:41.saying, people were forced into account, one side or the other, not
:32:42. > :32:47.both. People felt very divided. It is not the case now. Kate, do you
:32:48. > :32:51.want to come back here? First of all, this idea that something in the
:32:52. > :32:55.Koran somehow has been proven by science, firstly it is just not
:32:56. > :33:01.true. There are versus that contradict other parts of the Koran.
:33:02. > :33:04.It says you cannot mix salt water with freshwater. You can disprove
:33:05. > :33:07.that in your home with a couple of glasses and a bowl. It is very
:33:08. > :33:13.straightforward to demonstrate that a lot of what is in the Koran is
:33:14. > :33:17.nonsense. This same must apply to every other religious text out
:33:18. > :33:20.there. There is not one that makes any sense. That is why the vast
:33:21. > :33:24.majority of people who study sciences and things like that are
:33:25. > :33:30.atheists like myself. When we look at the facts, well, there is a whole
:33:31. > :33:33.other question about what people are getting out of religion and what
:33:34. > :33:38.they are looking for. Many scientists are people of faith so it
:33:39. > :33:43.is compatible. There are very few that follow specific religious
:33:44. > :33:47.books. There are some out there who think... Some of the great
:33:48. > :33:53.evolutionary biologists in the world are Christians, people like Ken
:33:54. > :33:56.Miller. That is a cognitive dissonance. I have been worrying
:33:57. > :34:02.about this since you said the Koran was write about the shape of the
:34:03. > :34:08.earth. What sort of egg is shaped like the earth? The earth is not
:34:09. > :34:14.precisely round. Scientists have realised... I have never seen an egg
:34:15. > :34:20.that is more or less a globe but slightly flattered at either end.
:34:21. > :34:24.Peter. If you pick up a scientific journal from the 1840s, you are
:34:25. > :34:36.going to find parts of it exceedingly humorous. To modernise.
:34:37. > :34:40.To suggest that science and the facts are the way we need to go
:34:41. > :34:45.really negates the fact that this is something that is continually moving
:34:46. > :34:50.and evolving. You and I have no right to the truth. We have a right
:34:51. > :34:53.to explore the truth. Then you're completely misunderstanding the
:34:54. > :34:56.scientific method. It is not believing in science. We heard
:34:57. > :35:04.atheism being referred to as a belief. It is not. How can it be a
:35:05. > :35:06.belief? Exactly. If somebody can demonstrate to me there is a God
:35:07. > :35:10.that I will be religious tomorrow but if you look at the proof that
:35:11. > :35:29.the facts, science is not about saying I believe this because I
:35:30. > :35:32.want to. Science has a method. An experiment, repeatable, we
:35:33. > :35:35.demonstrate something, we have a hypothesis, we prove it, and we keep
:35:36. > :35:37.going and tested and look for new evidence. What I think changes as I
:35:38. > :35:40.see evidence. Joshua. You cannot prove the existence of God. The
:35:41. > :35:42.whole point about God is faith. Exactly. He doesn't exist. In nine
:35:43. > :35:48.years of this programme, believe it or not, we have debated whether God
:35:49. > :35:57.exists or not! I want to take it back, if I may, to the fact that all
:35:58. > :36:00.the people who have been sent with divines, Abraham, Jesus, Mohammed,
:36:01. > :36:12.Joshua, your good self this morning! All men. All men, you say? If I
:36:13. > :36:18.could come in on this idea? Where are the women? Let me step back for
:36:19. > :36:24.a moment and this question of God. One of the understandings that I
:36:25. > :36:28.have is that God is noble but sacred figures are sent into the world for
:36:29. > :36:34.us to look into their lives in the scientific and rigorous way and see
:36:35. > :36:40.if the teachings make sense and make me and the world better. That is a
:36:41. > :36:44.sanity check for religion, actually. I think that is where Christianity
:36:45. > :36:48.is so different. To say that God is unknowable is to deny that Jesus
:36:49. > :36:52.Christ came to earth, the son of God, to reveal himself to us. We can
:36:53. > :36:57.know God because Jesus Christ was God. I agree that is an
:36:58. > :37:05.extraordinary claim. Jesus Christ was God. We cannot say that we can
:37:06. > :37:11.search out... Not according to Ameena Blake. Mohammed very plainly
:37:12. > :37:13.said this is nonsense. This is the difficulty of saying that all
:37:14. > :37:21.religions are the same. They cannot all be right. Peter, is it possible
:37:22. > :37:24.to get rid of the rituals, the beliefs, then doctrines, the
:37:25. > :37:30.encumbrances, forget it all, it is all man made, there is one God and
:37:31. > :37:38.it is the same God, unless you believe in lots of gods, polytheism?
:37:39. > :37:42.Is it difficult to cut through all that stuff? I think when we are
:37:43. > :37:50.hanging onto dear life, to Christ, to Mohammed, to Baha'u'llah, or
:37:51. > :37:54.indeed to the founder of the Bahai fake, I think we are in trouble of
:37:55. > :38:03.not being able to see what is around us. I think each human being has the
:38:04. > :38:10.capacity to experience the great mystery of existence. The great
:38:11. > :38:15.mystery of love. What I am seeing currently around the planet is the
:38:16. > :38:19.development of human consciousness, the development of building a world
:38:20. > :38:23.of peace is actually being held back by many of our ancient belief
:38:24. > :38:27.systems. I think what I am interested in is saying, have we
:38:28. > :38:35.reached a point now where have we drunk from these cups as far as we
:38:36. > :38:41.can? If we are going to have world Interfaith day, what does that mean?
:38:42. > :38:46.As the time now come for all religions to renounce violence?
:38:47. > :38:51.Should that be on the table? I don't know who sent you! A lot of people
:38:52. > :39:03.will like the cut of your jib. Thank you very much for your
:39:04. > :39:06.contributions. You can join in all of the morning's debates by logging
:39:07. > :39:11.on and following the link to the online discussion.
:39:12. > :39:16.Or you can tweet using the hashtag bbctbq.
:39:17. > :39:19.Tell us what you think about our last Big Question too.
:39:20. > :39:21.Does social media reveal men's hatred for women?
:39:22. > :39:24.And if you'd like to be in the audience at a future
:39:25. > :39:27.We're in Edinburgh next week, Bradford on 31st January,
:39:28. > :39:37.45 years ago, in that feminist primer, The Female Eunuch,
:39:38. > :39:39.still worth reading, Germaine Greer argued that women
:39:40. > :39:48.The advent of social media sites, like Twitter and Facebook,
:39:49. > :39:50.has displayed some men's views of some women
:39:51. > :39:55.And a lot of it is very nasty indeed, with rape threats and death
:39:56. > :39:57.threats made even against a woman whose only crime was to support
:39:58. > :40:03.Does social media reveal men's hatred for women?
:40:04. > :40:09.Kate, you made a comment on this programme last time, and I can't
:40:10. > :40:13.even remember what it was, but as ever it was interesting and
:40:14. > :40:19.controversial and stimulating. It was a tiny little comment. What was
:40:20. > :40:26.it? It was about the way somebody was being addressed. Let's do this.
:40:27. > :40:31.What happened to you? Does social media reveal men's hatred? Of
:40:32. > :40:34.course. We have known these opinions are out there and social media takes
:40:35. > :40:38.these opinions from around the world but it does much more than that as
:40:39. > :40:43.well. It allows people to access you when you should be safe in your
:40:44. > :40:47.home. Suddenly, once upon a time, if there were 100 people gathered
:40:48. > :40:50.outside your house shouting at you, you would have called the police and
:40:51. > :40:54.it would have been dealt with, but because of social media, people from
:40:55. > :41:05.all over the world, people you would otherwise not go near, are able to
:41:06. > :41:13.get to you. What was it like for you? I was on this show about a year
:41:14. > :41:20.ago. We were debating gender equality with Milo. In 48 hours I
:41:21. > :41:24.received 165 pages of media abuse including rape and death threats and
:41:25. > :41:33.unpleasant comments about my appearance. Because of what you said
:41:34. > :41:38.about Milo? Many were from Milo and people encouraged him and retweeted
:41:39. > :41:42.him. My head Photoshopped onto unattractive bodies, photographs of
:41:43. > :41:46.me manipulated to look horrible and whatever. I am not the first and
:41:47. > :41:53.last person to be on the receiving end of this kind of onslaught. From
:41:54. > :41:57.him? From Milo, from a group of people that he supports and
:41:58. > :42:01.encourages. If I was in that situation and supporters of mine did
:42:02. > :42:08.this kind of thing, I would of course told them it was not cool,
:42:09. > :42:10.not OK. Instead, egged on by a community of deep-rooted
:42:11. > :42:15.misogynists, this is the world we now live in. It is not just me. Lots
:42:16. > :42:20.of women have been affected by this, including teenagers, women from all
:42:21. > :42:30.around the world. Milo? What have you turned into? Such a nice young
:42:31. > :42:37.man. It is hard to believe. If you're of the furious. The
:42:38. > :42:41.Major-General of misogyny. You cannot support those comments? Of
:42:42. > :42:47.course not. Kate doesn't understand how frameworks, but I do. I am not
:42:48. > :42:51.particularly interested in a professional provocative who goes
:42:52. > :42:55.out and says deliberately outrageous things, like I do, and then turns
:42:56. > :43:00.round and plays a victim when she does not like ridicule and
:43:01. > :43:06.criticism. Let me finish. I let you finish, so stop. After she lost the
:43:07. > :43:12.debate, as feminists very often do these days, she turned round and did
:43:13. > :43:16.what feminists always do, which is confected a sob story. Kate, like
:43:17. > :43:23.me, it is a professional but only one of us plays the victim
:43:24. > :43:26.afterwards. Going back to the question, it is interesting that it
:43:27. > :43:30.is being framed like this at all. The global data from 2014 shows that
:43:31. > :43:36.men get more abuse online than women. It is men that get more death
:43:37. > :43:41.threats and violence threats. The only thing women beat men at and
:43:42. > :43:44.this is pure global data and this is the gold standard of research, the
:43:45. > :43:49.only thing women beat men at is cyberstalking and most of the people
:43:50. > :43:53.doing the stalking are other women. Social media does not show that men
:43:54. > :44:02.hate women, it shows that women hate everyone. Let me finish this point.
:44:03. > :44:08.That is an outrageous thing to say. I will qualify it and explain what I
:44:09. > :44:15.mean. I am going to get to you, don't worry. Explained to my
:44:16. > :44:20.daughter is what you have just said. Take the camera off him. It is
:44:21. > :44:27.outrageous. Freedom of speech. Doesn't mean it is not outrageous.
:44:28. > :44:33.Not only are men the primary victims but women are the primary
:44:34. > :44:40.perpetrators. Let him finish. Why should we let him finish? How much
:44:41. > :44:45.time is he getting? Connie. This man went on Twitter recently and said he
:44:46. > :44:53.wanted people assassinated. You are a liar. You lied about Tim Hunt and
:44:54. > :44:59.now you are lying about me. Carney. Connie! You are liar. If I were to
:45:00. > :45:05.walk out of the studio now, mayhem would ensue. I would come with you
:45:06. > :45:14.if you left! You are giving airtime to this. Wait a minute! I want
:45:15. > :45:19.silence! I want us all to enjoy just a little ten second window of
:45:20. > :45:26.silence. Then we can all calm down. No talking for ten seconds.
:45:27. > :45:32.Kate, what were you going to say? What I was going to say, I don't
:45:33. > :45:37.want this to be a debate about one individual. It is a shame that
:45:38. > :45:40.somebody gives airtime to somebody whose views and completely horrific
:45:41. > :45:46.statements have been so widely seen... But it is good to challenge
:45:47. > :45:50.them. But the point is there's a huge, huge weight, and young women
:45:51. > :45:54.who speak up online are facing a huge backlash. It is very
:45:55. > :46:01.frightening. I'm often asked to go into schools. Teachers want me to go
:46:02. > :46:05.in and encourage young women to speak up and express myself. I don't
:46:06. > :46:09.think young women are stupid. I don't think when they don't express
:46:10. > :46:16.themselves they are bashful and nervous and don't know what to say.
:46:17. > :46:20.They know what social media is like. What a depressing view of young
:46:21. > :46:24.women. When we want people to speak out and feel comfortable about
:46:25. > :46:31.expressing themselves, make the internet a place where they can do
:46:32. > :46:35.so. Bring in new laws to deal with this things. Connie, I will come to
:46:36. > :46:39.you in a minute. We need to be trained how to deal with this,
:46:40. > :46:43.training on when to act and when not to act, to make sure that the worst
:46:44. > :46:48.things, the rape and the death threats, the horrific harassment and
:46:49. > :46:52.abuse is dealt. I think when we see a few high profile individuals,
:46:53. > :46:57.perhaps some in this studio, locked up, it will be time for other people
:46:58. > :47:03.to back off, and I very much look forward to that day. Milo,ly come to
:47:04. > :47:11.you, and Connie in a second. We'll have... Someone has to reveal how
:47:12. > :47:16.similar these two arguments are. What both Milo and Kate are saying
:47:17. > :47:20.is people can be made to feel victimised and nervous and scared of
:47:21. > :47:27.the internet, whether that's men or women. It is a pathetic view of how
:47:28. > :47:32.people deal with insults and words. Most people, especially when they
:47:33. > :47:37.receive this kind of threat. I'm talking about rape and death
:47:38. > :47:43.threats. And when they receive this on Twitter they block or ignore.
:47:44. > :47:49.Please, Kate. This is what happens. Middle class women decide they want
:47:50. > :47:55.to take on the plight of and that women are victimised and can't
:47:56. > :48:00.handle the internet. It is disgusting and sexist to say women
:48:01. > :48:05.can't handle the internet. The women should be able to experience
:48:06. > :48:09.everything about public life. We fought for that throughout history
:48:10. > :48:15.and she wants to shut us away from it. We are going to hear Connie's
:48:16. > :48:25.story and then I will get Milo to respond. Please, no more about these
:48:26. > :48:32.egomaniacs. That's ideally how it is going be structured. Connie. We
:48:33. > :48:38.heard reference to him and the whole situation, the saga there from Milo
:48:39. > :48:45.Yiannopoulos. Professor Tim Hunt made a not very funny off-taste
:48:46. > :48:50.joke, in a lecture hall, a room in South Korea. Some would say it
:48:51. > :48:53.wasn't hugely offensive. Got worldwide attention, nothing to do
:48:54. > :48:57.with you but he lost his job. You had drawn people's attention to it.
:48:58. > :49:02.The reaction to your reaction was extraordinary. What have you gone
:49:03. > :49:09.through? So this has been really dreadful. It is exhibited here by
:49:10. > :49:13.the way that Milo felt he could shout abuse across the studio at me.
:49:14. > :49:19.What's interesting about this is that it is not about how people use
:49:20. > :49:23.the Twitter. It's about people trying to maintain a political
:49:24. > :49:29.status quo. So a lot of what goes on, particular people in America
:49:30. > :49:33.like Rush Limbaugh who've a right-wing ideology. They don't want
:49:34. > :49:38.to hear from women, with don't want to hear from people of other
:49:39. > :49:43.colours, or people with contrasting conservative view. These people are
:49:44. > :49:50.very loud and these people are very determined to shut a lot of people
:49:51. > :49:54.up. So I report something, I'm a journalist, can I report things, and
:49:55. > :49:59.in the end in order to protect some stupid comment, then I have to be
:50:00. > :50:03.discredited. I don't have to be discredited. I did nothing wrong.
:50:04. > :50:07.I'm not a liar. I don't even have to defend myself. As a journalist I can
:50:08. > :50:11.put a story out there. It was true... What abuse did you have
:50:12. > :50:16.online? I didn't just have abuse online. I had lots of letters sent
:50:17. > :50:21.to my office that were very racist. People would phone me up and scream
:50:22. > :50:27.really racist things. They would send me pictures of monkeys hanging
:50:28. > :50:32.in trees, saying, go back to your hut, go back to your jungle, you're
:50:33. > :50:39.not welcome here. It is like we're back 50 years in the racial economy
:50:40. > :50:44.of this country. People are really crude and it is very sad for people
:50:45. > :50:46.like me who've been here and you are trying to make things different for
:50:47. > :50:51.the next generation and there is no change. This country is just as
:50:52. > :50:56.racist, just as white male privileged as it has always been.
:50:57. > :51:01.APPLAUSE. Some people. These are some people. These are people who
:51:02. > :51:06.would never say it to your face. They are keyboard warriors. They
:51:07. > :51:12.never say it to your face. They won't stand up and own their
:51:13. > :51:18.statements. It is a minority of men. It is not about hatred. It is
:51:19. > :51:26.hundreds of thousands of men, if you are trying to... Milo, I said we
:51:27. > :51:30.would come to Milo. You did this poll online. Yes. What would you
:51:31. > :51:35.rather your child had, feminism or cancer? Yep, and 22,000 people and
:51:36. > :51:40.people voted in favour of cancer. What the statistics show us is that
:51:41. > :51:47.in just two years the number of women who identify as a feminist in
:51:48. > :51:54.the US has gone from 28 do 15%. The number of women who identify as
:51:55. > :51:58.feminist to an all time low of 7%. Professional provocateurs who play
:51:59. > :52:11.the victim after the fact and professors of science journalism who
:52:12. > :52:16.deliberately misrepresent statement by Nobel prize-winning... The daily
:52:17. > :52:20.buzz, the BBC, all of them have had to issue corrections over statements
:52:21. > :52:26.you made. You are a liar. People can look this up. A professor of science
:52:27. > :52:35.journalism who fabricated her CV as well. We have to get a response to
:52:36. > :52:41.that. I'm going to make specific accusations she can respond to. You
:52:42. > :52:50.are talking about people throwing accusations... People aren't
:52:51. > :52:56.interested in what you three... This poll, if you are an intellectual
:52:57. > :53:01.person or had half a brain, you would laugh at such rubbish.
:53:02. > :53:04.APPLAUSE. This is the whole thing about Twitter or the internet. If
:53:05. > :53:08.you are a political person, and journalists are political people,
:53:09. > :53:11.you put out an opinion there. I often put out opinions that people
:53:12. > :53:15.find abhorrent and disgusting because they don't agree with me.
:53:16. > :53:19.The emotional overreaction to that comes in the form of you're fat,
:53:20. > :53:25.you're this, all horrible stuff. Yes it is unpleasant. But the point
:53:26. > :53:29.is... But a monkey hang from a tree? I'm not condoning this. But what do
:53:30. > :53:34.we ask? ALL TALK AT ONCE
:53:35. > :53:34.Please! Connie, with you in a second.
:53:35. > :54:06.ALL TALK AT ONCE Let's hear the however. However... I
:54:07. > :54:13.am not responsible for what other people put on Twitter. 150,000
:54:14. > :54:21.people follow me on Twitter, 50,000 on YouTube, and on Facebook. Yet I'm
:54:22. > :54:27.not responsible for a tiny minority of idiots say. I was accused of
:54:28. > :54:31.calling for someone's assassination. These are outright galling lies from
:54:32. > :54:40.people with a history of dishonesty. It is all over the web. Yes,
:54:41. > :54:45.people with a history of dishonesty. It is all over the web. -- yes, your
:54:46. > :54:53.fabricated CV is online as well. You lied about Tim Hunt. You should be
:54:54. > :54:59.ashamed of yourself. Should we let Connie respond to that? He's
:55:00. > :55:02.pathetic. Connie? Milo just called for somebody to be assassinated.
:55:03. > :55:07.Twitter essentially struck him off. You are saying he didn't? No, I
:55:08. > :55:12.didn't. What was the wording of the tweet? Actually we don't need to
:55:13. > :55:22.believe everything he is saying. What did it say? Milo, let's hear
:55:23. > :55:29.Connie. He is a particular kind of person that makes his money and his
:55:30. > :55:32.fortune on Twitter. And he wants to develop his public persona on
:55:33. > :55:37.Twitter. There's lots of people like him around. How did he call for
:55:38. > :55:45.someone's assassination? In a tweet, because somebody challenged him.
:55:46. > :55:48.What was the wording? As a result Twitter has unverified him,
:55:49. > :55:52.deverified him. Not true. The you wrote about it yourself, Milo.
:55:53. > :55:56.Absolute nonsense. You need to address the allegations. This is the
:55:57. > :56:02.kind of person that had tried to make a fortune and their fame on
:56:03. > :56:11.Twitter, because they are desperate. Why do we care? My colleague in
:56:12. > :56:15.America, a very, very fine commentator on the New York Times.
:56:16. > :56:19.He wrote something recently and as a result he got a death threat. He
:56:20. > :56:23.said to Twitter, isn't it time you take some of these people off
:56:24. > :56:27.Twitter? And Twitter said, just contact the police if somebody
:56:28. > :56:32.shoots you. This person threatened to shoot him on Twitter. People like
:56:33. > :56:37.Milo are those kind of people. They need to be taken off and they need
:56:38. > :56:44.to be taken off... APPLAUSE. Please make it quick.
:56:45. > :56:52.Ladies over here who suffered this abuse and all other women and men,
:56:53. > :56:55.saying just block them or delete them or ignore it. They've been
:56:56. > :57:00.abused. They need to be held accountable for that.
:57:01. > :57:04.APPLAUSE. They are just words? Social media is just a Petri dish of
:57:05. > :57:09.the entirety of society really. But I have to say that the vacuous
:57:10. > :57:11.person like this is not representative of men on social
:57:12. > :57:18.media. APPLAUSE.
:57:19. > :57:24.CHEERING. Milo, you are a credentialist. Credentialist or
:57:25. > :57:29.egomaniac? You defend his right to be a controversialist. I defend
:57:30. > :57:33.people's right to be anything. That's the distinction, that I think
:57:34. > :57:37.you should be able to say the most abhorrent, the most awful things,
:57:38. > :57:41.because words are words. Especially on Twitter. The only time I would
:57:42. > :57:46.ever be afraid of a man or intimidate me was if he was
:57:47. > :57:50.threatening my life physically. That can't happen on Twitter because it
:57:51. > :57:54.is just words. The amount of stuff you get, death threats, evil stuff.
:57:55. > :58:06.Block them. Are you a girl or a woman? You have 40 seconds to
:58:07. > :58:11.respond Milo. Very straightforward. Let's not make it about me. You've
:58:12. > :58:16.got lying feminists throwing accusations. Who cares? The fact is
:58:17. > :58:20.that the research does not support the premise of this question, or
:58:21. > :58:25.support them. It doesn't support any of it's stuff you've said. You said
:58:26. > :58:29.lying feminist. Internet abuse is a real thing. It silences women's
:58:30. > :58:33.voices and makes women frighted to speak out. There are young home loo
:58:34. > :58:38.have committed suicide because of internet abuse and we have people
:58:39. > :58:44.here who not only support it but do it themselves.
:58:45. > :58:53.APPLAUSE. No! Thanks for watching. See you next week. Tweet away.
:58:54. > :59:08.It all started with the discovery of one enormous thigh bone.
:59:09. > :59:10.It's like a paleontological crime scene.
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:59:17. > :59:22.the biggest animal to ever walk the Earth.