0:00:02 > 0:00:05Today on The Big Questions - are we facing the end of the world?
0:00:16 > 0:00:17APPLAUSE
0:00:19 > 0:00:22Good morning. I'm Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions.
0:00:22 > 0:00:25Today we're back at Brunel University London, in Uxbridge,
0:00:25 > 0:00:29to debate one very big question - are we facing the end of the world?
0:00:29 > 0:00:31Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.
0:00:31 > 0:00:33APPLAUSE
0:00:36 > 0:00:39The Apocalypse, the Battle of Armageddon, the End Times -
0:00:39 > 0:00:44this is the realm of eschatology, a theological study of where humanity
0:00:44 > 0:00:46and the world is ultimately headed.
0:00:46 > 0:00:50In Christianity, it's the final judgment, the last trump,
0:00:50 > 0:00:53damnation for some, salvation for others,
0:00:53 > 0:00:56and possibly a new world to come.
0:00:56 > 0:00:59Nearly all religions have a prophetic vision
0:00:59 > 0:01:00of the end of the world
0:01:00 > 0:01:02and who will survive and who will not.
0:01:02 > 0:01:04It's happened before.
0:01:04 > 0:01:07Long before humans walked this Earth, there were five great
0:01:07 > 0:01:10mass extinctions which destroyed most of this planet's life.
0:01:10 > 0:01:13In the first, 443 million years ago,
0:01:13 > 0:01:1885% of the creatures which then lived on the seas, were wiped out.
0:01:18 > 0:01:21In the fifth, 65 million years ago,
0:01:21 > 0:01:24the Cretaceous-Tertiary extinction of plants and animals
0:01:24 > 0:01:28saw the last of the pterosaurs, the end of ammonites
0:01:28 > 0:01:30and the death of the dinosaurs.
0:01:30 > 0:01:34And now scientists believe we're facing a sixth great extinction.
0:01:34 > 0:01:38But this one is caused by us - by human beings -
0:01:38 > 0:01:41destroying habitats, overheating the planet.
0:01:41 > 0:01:45So are we now facing the end of our world as we know it?
0:01:46 > 0:01:49Is this what so many religions foretold?
0:01:49 > 0:01:52Well, to debate this very question, we've gathered together
0:01:52 > 0:01:56environmentalists, eschatologists, economists, writers,
0:01:56 > 0:01:59peoples of many faith and of none.
0:01:59 > 0:02:01And you can join in too on Twitter or online by logging on to...
0:02:04 > 0:02:06Follow the link to the online discussion.
0:02:06 > 0:02:09Lots of encouragement, contributions for...are engaged,
0:02:09 > 0:02:15but looking slightly concerned, our audience here in Uxbridge.
0:02:15 > 0:02:20So let's just start off with some of the religious perspectives on this.
0:02:20 > 0:02:23We have Adnan, who is a Muslim.
0:02:23 > 0:02:28And we have Pastor Clement Okusi from the Eternity Church, London.
0:02:28 > 0:02:32Eternity - I like the cut of your jib.
0:02:32 > 0:02:36And we have got Taiwo Adewuyi, who is from Discuss Jesus.
0:02:36 > 0:02:38So, what are the signs, Pastor?
0:02:38 > 0:02:40You believe that this could come, it could come soon,
0:02:40 > 0:02:41it could come in our lifetimes.
0:02:41 > 0:02:45What signs should we look out for, what signs are you receiving?
0:02:45 > 0:02:48Well, we get our understanding of eschatology
0:02:48 > 0:02:49from Scripture, of course.
0:02:49 > 0:02:52And, actually, from the mouth of Jesus himself.
0:02:52 > 0:02:54Jesus on his Olivet Discourse,
0:02:54 > 0:02:56he's approached by his disciples,
0:02:56 > 0:03:00who ask him a number of questions about when will the end of time be?
0:03:01 > 0:03:03For us, the end times is precipitated
0:03:03 > 0:03:05by the return of Jesus Christ,
0:03:05 > 0:03:06- the second coming.- Right.
0:03:06 > 0:03:09Jesus begins... He gives them a list of things to look for -
0:03:09 > 0:03:11wars, rumours of wars, nations against nations.
0:03:11 > 0:03:14Earthquakes, pestilences, diseases, etc, etc.
0:03:14 > 0:03:16Do you see it now? Do you see that stuff happening now?
0:03:16 > 0:03:18Those things have always been there.
0:03:18 > 0:03:19Yeah, I was just going to say.
0:03:19 > 0:03:22What we are seeing, we are seeing an increasing amount of them.
0:03:22 > 0:03:25If I think about it in my lifetime, I mean, I'm still quite young,
0:03:25 > 0:03:27when I consider the amount of wars
0:03:27 > 0:03:31that I've seen in my lifetime - whether it's the Falklands War,
0:03:31 > 0:03:34two Gulf wars, Rwanda, Bosnia, etc,
0:03:34 > 0:03:37there seems to be an increase in wars.
0:03:37 > 0:03:42Despite our growing wisdom in science and technology, aviation,
0:03:42 > 0:03:46we still seem to have new viruses, new diseases for ever coming up,
0:03:46 > 0:03:48we've had Ebola, got the Zika virus,
0:03:48 > 0:03:50we've got all sorts of things happening.
0:03:50 > 0:03:52So, yeah, so those words of Jesus seem to...
0:03:52 > 0:03:55So we're turning in on ourselves in a way?
0:03:55 > 0:03:57You say Israel is significant, is it?
0:03:57 > 0:03:59Yeah, Israel's at the heart of it.
0:03:59 > 0:04:02For us, as we understand end time theology, there is
0:04:02 > 0:04:04a difference between the Church and Israel.
0:04:04 > 0:04:06Armageddon that you mentioned,
0:04:06 > 0:04:08is meant to take place at a place called Megiddo.
0:04:08 > 0:04:11I've been there, or at least have been to that area,
0:04:11 > 0:04:13where they reckon that all the world's armies are going to
0:04:13 > 0:04:15converge onto Israel.
0:04:15 > 0:04:18And Jesus is going to return, the second coming of Christ,
0:04:18 > 0:04:19he's going to defend Israel,
0:04:19 > 0:04:21rescue Israel and defeat her enemies.
0:04:21 > 0:04:23Taiwo, is that how you see it?
0:04:23 > 0:04:25Is that a similar theology going on here?
0:04:25 > 0:04:27Yeah, to a degree. To a degree.
0:04:27 > 0:04:29When is Jesus going to come back?
0:04:29 > 0:04:31You think it's in our lifetime?
0:04:31 > 0:04:35I believe the generation that has witnessed
0:04:35 > 0:04:37the formation of the state of Israel,
0:04:37 > 0:04:41will see the return of the Lord Jesus Christ.
0:04:41 > 0:04:44What will happen when the Lord Jesus Christ returns?
0:04:44 > 0:04:46What will our experience of that be?
0:04:46 > 0:04:49I mean, he is coming back to judge the world
0:04:49 > 0:04:51and to finish that which he started.
0:04:52 > 0:04:57So when we look at the beginning, the whole idea was to create,
0:04:57 > 0:05:01obviously, a Garden of Eden and populate it around the world.
0:05:01 > 0:05:04The aim was not kind of to bring death and sin into the world.
0:05:04 > 0:05:06So, what signs are you seeing?
0:05:06 > 0:05:11So, there are four key signs which we should keep in mind.
0:05:11 > 0:05:12So far we have seen 1.5.
0:05:12 > 0:05:14There are four signs.
0:05:14 > 0:05:16The first one is the sign in the Church.
0:05:16 > 0:05:20The second one is the sign in the Earth.
0:05:20 > 0:05:22The third one is the sign in the Middle East.
0:05:22 > 0:05:25And the fourth one is the sign in the sky.
0:05:25 > 0:05:28- All this is well documented in... - What's the sign in the sky?
0:05:28 > 0:05:31All, all... All this is documented well in Matthew 21...
0:05:31 > 0:05:33But what is the sign in the sky?
0:05:33 > 0:05:35The sign in the sky is the latter aspect.
0:05:35 > 0:05:39So, I mean, the Bible talks about the sun being darkened,
0:05:39 > 0:05:42the moon not giving its light, and so forth.
0:05:42 > 0:05:46And prior to his imminent return,
0:05:46 > 0:05:48we will see a sign of the son of man,
0:05:48 > 0:05:50prior to his coming.
0:05:50 > 0:05:53Pastor, could this be in our lifetimes?
0:05:53 > 0:05:55Well... I mean, Jesus is very clear.
0:05:55 > 0:05:57Jesus says, "No man knoweth the time nor the hour."
0:05:57 > 0:06:01So we should be very careful about trying to predict the actual
0:06:01 > 0:06:04return of Christ. In fact, there was a guy called Miller,
0:06:04 > 0:06:07- who I think in the 18th century... - Yeah, kept getting it wrong.
0:06:07 > 0:06:09He predicted the return of Christ
0:06:09 > 0:06:11and so people were climbing up mountains cos they
0:06:11 > 0:06:15wanted to see Jesus before people would see him on ground level.
0:06:15 > 0:06:17Lots of people have constantly made these predictions.
0:06:17 > 0:06:20- Adnan, do you think there are signs? - Absolutely, yes.
0:06:20 > 0:06:23- What signs are there? - According to Muslim eschatology,
0:06:23 > 0:06:26which mainly comes from the Prophet Muhammad and his prophecies,
0:06:26 > 0:06:28he talked about an increase in injustice.
0:06:28 > 0:06:30Indiscriminate killing, inequality,
0:06:30 > 0:06:33people will start to repress each other and despite...
0:06:33 > 0:06:35This has always happened, though.
0:06:35 > 0:06:39Of course, but near the end of times there will be specific signs
0:06:39 > 0:06:41such as escalation in...earthquakes,
0:06:41 > 0:06:45they will grow in their magnitude and numbers.
0:06:45 > 0:06:47Environmental problems, wars.
0:06:47 > 0:06:49Wars on a huge magnitude.
0:06:49 > 0:06:54The 20th century is the bloodiest century in history of humanity,
0:06:54 > 0:06:57for example. We start from the year 1900 to 2000.
0:06:57 > 0:07:01Just calculate the amount of casualties we have had.
0:07:01 > 0:07:03You know, all of mankind put together previously,
0:07:03 > 0:07:05the 20th century was the bloodiest
0:07:05 > 0:07:08and the most devastating century of humanity.
0:07:08 > 0:07:11We have heard about the signs from the sky, what will happen?
0:07:11 > 0:07:15I don't know what my friend there is referring to, the sign in the sky,
0:07:15 > 0:07:16but we have specific signs.
0:07:16 > 0:07:17The Prophet Muhammad said
0:07:17 > 0:07:20when these things happen, then wait for the hour,
0:07:20 > 0:07:24- which is increasing injustice... - You mean, Jesus will come? Yeah?
0:07:24 > 0:07:25That's one of the signs.
0:07:25 > 0:07:28That's part of Muslim eschatology - he will come back
0:07:28 > 0:07:31and fight the forces of injustice, OK?
0:07:31 > 0:07:33Now what are these forces of injustice?
0:07:33 > 0:07:35He will be physically here, fighting?
0:07:35 > 0:07:38He will physically descend. We Muslims believe that.
0:07:38 > 0:07:40And he will fight the forces of injustice.
0:07:40 > 0:07:44Will things carry on as they are at the moment, but he will have physically descended?
0:07:44 > 0:07:45No, things will deteriorate.
0:07:45 > 0:07:47As we speak right now, I think we all agree -
0:07:47 > 0:07:49whether you are a religious person or not -
0:07:49 > 0:07:53we all agree that the world is in a bad state today.
0:07:53 > 0:07:54There is a lot of injustice.
0:07:54 > 0:07:56We have environmental issues,
0:07:56 > 0:07:58we have problems with our morality, for example...
0:07:58 > 0:07:59What do you mean, morality?
0:07:59 > 0:08:02Well, injustice. That's the biggest problem.
0:08:02 > 0:08:05I know you're worried about morality and promiscuity.
0:08:05 > 0:08:08- No, not promiscuity.- I think earlier on, you were.- No, not specifically.
0:08:08 > 0:08:11When I say morality, lack of morality, I mean lack of justice.
0:08:11 > 0:08:14But you said earlier on when we were talking that one of the signs
0:08:14 > 0:08:17- is promiscuity. - Promiscuity is part of injustice.
0:08:17 > 0:08:20- It is injustice to humans. - Right, promiscuity.
0:08:20 > 0:08:22The serpent comes out the sea.
0:08:22 > 0:08:23That's the four signs.
0:08:23 > 0:08:26- Let me throw a few more.- How many heads has the serpent got?
0:08:27 > 0:08:30How many heads has the serpent got, is it seven or nine,
0:08:30 > 0:08:32that comes out of the sea?
0:08:32 > 0:08:34Well, Daniel Chapter 10 to 12,
0:08:34 > 0:08:38talks about, um...
0:08:38 > 0:08:43- you know, a man of lawlessness arising.- Is this the Antichrist?
0:08:43 > 0:08:46Yeah, this is the Antichrist. But one point I want to make...
0:08:46 > 0:08:48I'll come back to you. I want to establish the Antichrist.
0:08:48 > 0:08:51I just want to make this very quick point. Daniel Chapter 9
0:08:51 > 0:08:56talks about a Messiah being cut off after a certain period.
0:08:56 > 0:09:03Now this is the Messiah that, um, many sort of Jewish people, some,
0:09:03 > 0:09:07have not accepted as the true Messiah.
0:09:07 > 0:09:11We believe that the Messiah that came after
0:09:11 > 0:09:13the destruction of the second Temple
0:09:13 > 0:09:14is the Messiah.
0:09:14 > 0:09:17Got you. It's very interesting. Those are the beliefs.
0:09:17 > 0:09:22Justin, these are core beliefs, or not, of Christianity and Islam?
0:09:22 > 0:09:23They're beliefs...
0:09:23 > 0:09:28The seven-headed red dragon with ten horns -
0:09:28 > 0:09:33they're beliefs that you can find recorded in the Book of Revelation,
0:09:33 > 0:09:34written by, as Bernard Shaw said,
0:09:34 > 0:09:39"a man sitting on Patmos who'd taken far too many drugs,"
0:09:39 > 0:09:42those images of end times, being able to read,
0:09:42 > 0:09:45if you like, the prophetic clock, you know, "Where are
0:09:45 > 0:09:49"we in the history that is outlined in the Old and the New Testament?"
0:09:49 > 0:09:53"We're here. OK, that means there are X number of years left."
0:09:53 > 0:09:57But this is a very literalist reading of Scripture.
0:09:57 > 0:10:00When I hear stuff about the skies darkening,
0:10:00 > 0:10:05we understand how meteorology works, we know what a comet is.
0:10:05 > 0:10:08In the 12th century, in the 16th century, we didn't really.
0:10:08 > 0:10:13So anything that changed in nature was regarded as a providential act,
0:10:13 > 0:10:15perhaps prophesying something.
0:10:15 > 0:10:20Any Shakespeare play incorporates that sort of understanding.
0:10:20 > 0:10:22Now we know what a rainbow is.
0:10:22 > 0:10:24You know, in both the Old and the New Testament,
0:10:24 > 0:10:27the rainbow is regarded as a miracle of God. Well, it's not.
0:10:27 > 0:10:29It is refraction of light through water.
0:10:30 > 0:10:36So I think the key question for me is, do people really believe this?
0:10:36 > 0:10:38- Yes, absolutely.- How? How?
0:10:38 > 0:10:41I want to come back to a few of the other signs that you have dismissed.
0:10:41 > 0:10:43One of the signs of the end times
0:10:43 > 0:10:46is that man will run to and fro throughout the Earth.
0:10:46 > 0:10:50Now, for thousands of years, man travelled by horse, donkey, camel.
0:10:50 > 0:10:54Now at the time that was prophesied, they had no idea about aviation.
0:10:54 > 0:10:56I've been to Australia nine times.
0:10:56 > 0:11:00I have been able to get onto a plane and fly 11,000 miles
0:11:00 > 0:11:01in less than 24 hours.
0:11:01 > 0:11:04There's a prophecy that says knowledge will increase.
0:11:04 > 0:11:07The amount of knowledge that we have today compared to
0:11:07 > 0:11:11just 100 years ago is immense. I mean, you can have a flash drive.
0:11:11 > 0:11:15My parents had Encyclopaedia Britannica on their shelf.
0:11:15 > 0:11:18You know, a huge... About 30 volumes.
0:11:18 > 0:11:20Knowledge is something that is heralding...
0:11:20 > 0:11:24The internet is growing at an alarming rate on an hourly basis.
0:11:24 > 0:11:26There's a number of things that Scripture has prophesied
0:11:26 > 0:11:28- that have come to pass.- Rabbi?
0:11:29 > 0:11:33I have some problems with some of the things that have been said.
0:11:33 > 0:11:37Probably not surprisingly coming from a Jewish perspective, yeah?
0:11:37 > 0:11:40I think what we decided in Judaism,
0:11:40 > 0:11:42and we decided it in the times of the Talmud -
0:11:42 > 0:11:46you cannot predict, you cannot say, we have come to the end times.
0:11:46 > 0:11:47There are passages which say,
0:11:47 > 0:11:49look, we're going to come to a time, indeed,
0:11:49 > 0:11:52of this chaos that we've heard from both
0:11:52 > 0:11:55the Christian and from a Muslim perspective.
0:11:55 > 0:11:56We're going to come to a time
0:11:56 > 0:11:58when parents are not respecting their children,
0:11:58 > 0:12:00children are not respecting their parents
0:12:00 > 0:12:02and they kind of list it out.
0:12:02 > 0:12:04And in the end of the debate, a rabbi called Rav, Babylonia,
0:12:04 > 0:12:08third century says, "You cannot calculate the end times."
0:12:08 > 0:12:12All this... One rabbi says, "2,000 years, 2,000 years, 2,000 years.
0:12:12 > 0:12:13"6,000 years and it's all over."
0:12:13 > 0:12:18Which basically in Jewish time means we have got 230 years to go. Yeah?
0:12:18 > 0:12:22All over. And he says, "No, you can never do that."
0:12:22 > 0:12:24All you can do is repentance, good deeds
0:12:24 > 0:12:25and try and make the world better
0:12:25 > 0:12:28- and that's what we're trying to do. - APPLAUSE
0:12:28 > 0:12:31- Justin.- I...- Just a second. Hang on, Pastor. Hang on, Pastor.
0:12:31 > 0:12:34- I...- Pastor! Pastor! Pastor, I will come back to you, I promise you.
0:12:34 > 0:12:37I just want to spread it around a bit cos there's a point there.
0:12:37 > 0:12:39Richard, I'll come to you on a point in a minute.
0:12:39 > 0:12:43But, Justin, the pastor raised this, the Millerites
0:12:43 > 0:12:47and other sects and other groups have made these predictions.
0:12:47 > 0:12:49And everyone's run up the mountain
0:12:49 > 0:12:51and marched very slowly back down again.
0:12:51 > 0:12:53What is the impetus, what has been the psychological impetus,
0:12:53 > 0:12:58whether it be control, whether it be for power, that has led to
0:12:58 > 0:13:02these groups over the years to make failed predictions,
0:13:02 > 0:13:03constant failed predictions?
0:13:03 > 0:13:07It's an in-built assumption of human beings that we are all going
0:13:07 > 0:13:08to die at some point.
0:13:08 > 0:13:10Some people can come to terms with that
0:13:10 > 0:13:15and live a life that is constructive and enables others to be happy.
0:13:15 > 0:13:17Others panic.
0:13:17 > 0:13:22And other religious figures, authorities, normally men,
0:13:22 > 0:13:23very rarely women...
0:13:23 > 0:13:26Joanna Southcott was a prophetess and her box
0:13:26 > 0:13:28is still hidden away somewhere,
0:13:28 > 0:13:32only to be opened by 24 bishops of the Church of England.
0:13:32 > 0:13:33Lord knows what's inside them.
0:13:33 > 0:13:36But I doubt whether it's going to be very helpful.
0:13:38 > 0:13:42The sociological charisma that people like Miller or David Koresh or...
0:13:42 > 0:13:48In the 1650s, there were more prophets springing up than there were almost believers.
0:13:48 > 0:13:50And it was a time of crisis -
0:13:50 > 0:13:52800,000 people died in the English Civil War.
0:13:52 > 0:13:55There were comets whizzing across the sky.
0:13:55 > 0:13:57Everybody thought, "It's all over."
0:13:57 > 0:14:01A lot of people said, "We've got the crops to take in.
0:14:01 > 0:14:03"I am going to write fantastic poetry instead."
0:14:03 > 0:14:05Isaac Newton said, "Let's do the maths."
0:14:05 > 0:14:09- And spent...- He wasn't entirely a rationalist, though, was he?
0:14:09 > 0:14:14No, no. He spent millions of words trying to calculate the number
0:14:14 > 0:14:15and the name of the beast.
0:14:15 > 0:14:18He was obsessed with the Book of Revelation.
0:14:18 > 0:14:20And we like to forget that.
0:14:20 > 0:14:23Science isn't the product of some divine authority
0:14:23 > 0:14:25mediated through Scripture.
0:14:25 > 0:14:26Scripture is a book.
0:14:26 > 0:14:29That guy behind you, you have been shaking your head. I think you...
0:14:29 > 0:14:32Do you want to bring the microphone to this gentleman here,
0:14:32 > 0:14:33very quickly?
0:14:33 > 0:14:37I think the analogy, especially when you made the comment about the rainbow
0:14:37 > 0:14:42- being, how can I put it, obviously...- A refraction of light.
0:14:42 > 0:14:46Yeah, a refraction of light, Scripture doesn't say that.
0:14:46 > 0:14:49Scripture says it was a sign that God won't flood the world,
0:14:49 > 0:14:50won't destroy the world with a flood.
0:14:50 > 0:14:52Do you think the end is soon?
0:14:52 > 0:14:55Yeah, I do believe the end is soon, yes.
0:14:55 > 0:14:56How soon, in your lifetime?
0:14:56 > 0:14:58Like the pastor said, Jesus said,
0:14:58 > 0:15:00"No man knows the hour or the time or hour."
0:15:00 > 0:15:02But the signs are there.
0:15:02 > 0:15:04What's the biggest sign for you?
0:15:04 > 0:15:07I think it's lawlessness. The rise of selfishness, greed...
0:15:07 > 0:15:10There's always been selfishness, there's been always greed.
0:15:11 > 0:15:13Yeah, but I just think it's at a scale whereby, you know...
0:15:13 > 0:15:16- You know... - I going to put that to you, Richard,
0:15:16 > 0:15:19because you're moving in your seat like you want to say something.
0:15:19 > 0:15:21I know you very well. We heard earlier from the pastor.
0:15:21 > 0:15:23And you can come back here by all means.
0:15:23 > 0:15:26We heard from the pastor that an unprecedented amount of wars,
0:15:26 > 0:15:30unprecedented amount of diseases, we have had lawlessness,
0:15:30 > 0:15:31we have had immorality.
0:15:31 > 0:15:33Are we at the worst point in our history?
0:15:33 > 0:15:34Absolutely not.
0:15:34 > 0:15:38I've got no beef against religion and they may have a hotline,
0:15:38 > 0:15:41but I think the business of the signs that are cited.
0:15:41 > 0:15:43No, the signs are pretty good.
0:15:43 > 0:15:46We've got an enormous human population, perhaps too big,
0:15:46 > 0:15:49but it's extraordinarily doing...
0:15:49 > 0:15:51It's doing much, much better than anybody
0:15:51 > 0:15:53thought that it would -
0:15:53 > 0:15:57Literacy up, life expectancy up,
0:15:57 > 0:15:59child survival at birth up.
0:15:59 > 0:16:01And the bottom... I'm sorry.
0:16:01 > 0:16:04Have you been to Africa, have you been to Africa?
0:16:04 > 0:16:06- Yes, yes.- South America? India?
0:16:06 > 0:16:09Yes. Sorry, no, not India.
0:16:09 > 0:16:14The majority of the world is living in poverty. Utter poverty.
0:16:15 > 0:16:17APPLAUSE
0:16:18 > 0:16:22- Wait a minute, let Richard in. - Then I can shout easily.
0:16:22 > 0:16:24Just to say that the bottom 10%, the bottom 20%,
0:16:24 > 0:16:27the bottom 30% are, in our time,
0:16:27 > 0:16:30in spite of extraordinary pressures, doing much better than
0:16:30 > 0:16:34they could ever have believed or their grandparents could ever have believed.
0:16:34 > 0:16:35APPLAUSE
0:16:35 > 0:16:38- To me, this is part...- Adnan, do you want to come back here?
0:16:38 > 0:16:42I believe the minority in this world...
0:16:42 > 0:16:46are very, very huge in terms of financial capacity.
0:16:46 > 0:16:49This minority is very, very rich,
0:16:49 > 0:16:51is well off, the rest of the world is actually suffering.
0:16:51 > 0:16:55I've been to Africa, I have been to many countries around the world.
0:16:55 > 0:16:58I work with charities and I've seen how people live.
0:16:58 > 0:17:01They live in boxes! In Kenya...
0:17:01 > 0:17:05Is that because there are too many people?
0:17:05 > 0:17:09Possibly. Or due to injustice, financial injustice.
0:17:09 > 0:17:11Because we're not distributing the wealth
0:17:11 > 0:17:13we have to the rest of the world.
0:17:13 > 0:17:16We need to distribute our wealth equally
0:17:16 > 0:17:19so that we get rid of this poverty we are facing right now in the world.
0:17:19 > 0:17:21Are there too many people, Will?
0:17:21 > 0:17:23Are there too many people?
0:17:23 > 0:17:27There may not be too many right now, but there certainly will be too many
0:17:27 > 0:17:30- in my view, by... - SMATTERING OF APPLAUSE
0:17:30 > 0:17:35At the end of this century, the UN predicts that the human population will rise from 7.4 billion,
0:17:35 > 0:17:36which is where it is roughly now,
0:17:36 > 0:17:39to 11 billion by the end of this century.
0:17:39 > 0:17:40Can you imagine?
0:17:40 > 0:17:42For every seven people alive today,
0:17:42 > 0:17:4411 people alive at the end of the century.
0:17:44 > 0:17:48And I look at it from a non-theological point of view and
0:17:48 > 0:17:52I look at the evidence of desperate people travelling halfway around
0:17:52 > 0:17:55the world to try and find a living that makes some sense to them.
0:17:55 > 0:17:59Enormous amounts of corporate and institutional corruption.
0:17:59 > 0:18:03Politicians that we no longer trust to actually deliver a better life
0:18:03 > 0:18:07for our own citizens, let alone for the citizens of the world.
0:18:07 > 0:18:09And I am sorry, and the final point is,
0:18:09 > 0:18:13whether you believe that the world is coming to an end, I think
0:18:13 > 0:18:15the natural world is coming to an end.
0:18:15 > 0:18:18I think we will end up in a sort of spinning top, full of people
0:18:18 > 0:18:21all fighting each other, reaching a malfeasant limit
0:18:21 > 0:18:22and then destroying ourselves.
0:18:22 > 0:18:24But long after we've got rid of the natural world
0:18:24 > 0:18:25if we don't take action now.
0:18:25 > 0:18:27APPLAUSE
0:18:28 > 0:18:33- Richard, you don't...- I have a riposte to that to say that 30 or 40
0:18:33 > 0:18:38years ago, people thought exactly that was going to be true.
0:18:38 > 0:18:40And goodness me, it has been a tight squeeze,
0:18:40 > 0:18:43but we have had that prediction exactly before.
0:18:43 > 0:18:46We have extraordinarily risen to the challenge
0:18:46 > 0:18:50and there is a perfectly good reason to suppose
0:18:50 > 0:18:52that we will rise to the next half of...
0:18:52 > 0:18:54How have we risen to the challenge
0:18:54 > 0:18:57when there's still 2.5 billion people
0:18:57 > 0:18:59living below the poverty line?
0:18:59 > 0:19:01How does that represent rising to the challenge?
0:19:03 > 0:19:06That living standards for the bottom ten
0:19:06 > 0:19:08and 20% on this planet have risen, not fallen.
0:19:08 > 0:19:12Only because the UN moved the figures.
0:19:12 > 0:19:14Only because the UN moved the figures.
0:19:14 > 0:19:16Well, I look at the data pretty carefully
0:19:16 > 0:19:18and I don't see this fiddling going on.
0:19:18 > 0:19:22What I see is pretty amazing improvement
0:19:22 > 0:19:25and fair prospect of that continuing.
0:19:25 > 0:19:28And I do not see this descent into violence.
0:19:28 > 0:19:32It will be a tight squeeze. That is the human nature, that we push on.
0:19:32 > 0:19:35It will be a tight squeeze with all those people.
0:19:35 > 0:19:37Even that can be exaggerated
0:19:37 > 0:19:39since we're looking at a population peak
0:19:39 > 0:19:41by the United Nations' own view.
0:19:41 > 0:19:44We have already seen this curve flattening out
0:19:44 > 0:19:46and it will fall thereafter.
0:19:46 > 0:19:48Lady there has been trying to come in.
0:19:48 > 0:19:50Don't worry, I will be with you, everybody.
0:19:50 > 0:19:51I just want to acknowledge the
0:19:51 > 0:19:54fact that there is lawlessness, there is violence.
0:19:54 > 0:19:56There is a reduction in morality.
0:19:56 > 0:19:59All the things that were said on that side, yes, they are true.
0:19:59 > 0:20:02But to say that we have risen up to the challenge is to be
0:20:02 > 0:20:04living in a cloud cuckoo land.
0:20:04 > 0:20:07Now, I've worked with food banks, I said food banks,
0:20:07 > 0:20:11across London for the past seven years. I didn't have to do that.
0:20:11 > 0:20:13It was because there was a need.
0:20:13 > 0:20:15If you're living in this country,
0:20:15 > 0:20:17you'd realise those numbers have done nothing but keep rising.
0:20:17 > 0:20:20But if you'd been living in Victorian times,
0:20:20 > 0:20:22it would've been a whole lot worse.
0:20:22 > 0:20:24The question is, is the world coming to an end?
0:20:24 > 0:20:27Yes, it might lead us to fear and to sort of say,
0:20:27 > 0:20:29"Let's throw in the towel and do nothing."
0:20:29 > 0:20:32What we do have to do is, first of all, ask ourselves,
0:20:32 > 0:20:34"Where will we end up as individuals?"
0:20:34 > 0:20:37And also to do the best we can to make it a better world.
0:20:37 > 0:20:39But we're not there yet. We are not there yet.
0:20:39 > 0:20:41APPLAUSE
0:20:42 > 0:20:46Justin, very quickly, is there... has there been a rise in immorality?
0:20:46 > 0:20:49Are we are more immoral world than we ever have been?
0:20:49 > 0:20:51This is the clarion call of the religious voice
0:20:51 > 0:20:54since about the year dot.
0:20:54 > 0:20:56The world is in a state of decay, we are immoral.
0:20:56 > 0:21:00What really peeves me about the debate that we are in
0:21:00 > 0:21:05a catastrophic time now, is that I don't see the gathered churches
0:21:05 > 0:21:08of the universe, of the world, doing very much about it at all.
0:21:08 > 0:21:12What we need is radical social change that redistributes
0:21:12 > 0:21:17the wealth of the very few to the many, and that will change life.
0:21:17 > 0:21:20We are inheriting, at the moment, the consequences of a long
0:21:20 > 0:21:22form of decolonisation.
0:21:22 > 0:21:24The British Isles, throughout the 18th and 19th,
0:21:24 > 0:21:28and most of the 20th century, colonised the world, raped it in
0:21:28 > 0:21:33one sense, and we are now confronted with the consequences of that.
0:21:33 > 0:21:37Tell me how... OK, the Pope accommodated 12 families,
0:21:37 > 0:21:40that's a good start. But 12 families, this is poor.
0:21:40 > 0:21:45Tell me how worrying about end times is going to resolve those
0:21:45 > 0:21:47problems when human beings can do something.
0:21:47 > 0:21:48What about population?
0:21:48 > 0:21:51Caroline, you heard your fellow Christians here.
0:21:51 > 0:21:53We look forward to hearing from them again,
0:21:53 > 0:21:56and also from Adnan, who are basically saying
0:21:56 > 0:22:01we're up the proverbial creek without a proverbial paddle...
0:22:01 > 0:22:05for want of a better phrase, whatever, the water's rising.
0:22:07 > 0:22:11You don't have to be sentimental about species.
0:22:11 > 0:22:13I believe you would be, I care passionately about it.
0:22:13 > 0:22:18You don't have to be sentimental about the natural world to know that in practical terms, you know,
0:22:18 > 0:22:20if animals die, forests will die.
0:22:20 > 0:22:22If forests die, they are the lungs of the planet,
0:22:22 > 0:22:25they are part of the ecosystems, it's very bad for the planet,
0:22:25 > 0:22:29and as their habitats...inroads are made upon those habitats,
0:22:29 > 0:22:30that becomes even worse.
0:22:30 > 0:22:32We'll lose the poetry of the natural world.
0:22:32 > 0:22:35We'll lose beautiful, wonderful things.
0:22:35 > 0:22:40But apart from that, it is because there are too many people.
0:22:40 > 0:22:43Over to you from Catholic Voices.
0:22:43 > 0:22:44Hello. It was interesting,
0:22:44 > 0:22:47you were talking about the UN population figures.
0:22:47 > 0:22:51I was just reading, on the way here, there is a new model,
0:22:51 > 0:22:54new research, done by the University of Madrid,
0:22:54 > 0:22:56who have been looking at the UN population figures, who say
0:22:56 > 0:23:02that actually they are going to peak and stabilise in the next 50 years.
0:23:02 > 0:23:06And they have the world's population as peaking
0:23:06 > 0:23:09and stabilising at around seven million.
0:23:09 > 0:23:11This hasn't... Sorry, seven billion.
0:23:11 > 0:23:14- This hasn't...- For one moment I thought we were back in the...
0:23:14 > 0:23:18- 12 century.- Now this hasn't garnered major headlines.
0:23:18 > 0:23:20But there is a demographic crisis.
0:23:20 > 0:23:22So, are there too many people now?
0:23:22 > 0:23:23No, there aren't.
0:23:23 > 0:23:27But what we do have, which is a real problem and very problematic,
0:23:27 > 0:23:29is we have population implosions.
0:23:29 > 0:23:31So we see it in the Asian areas.
0:23:31 > 0:23:37We see it in Italy. The US, Japan, around Europe.
0:23:37 > 0:23:42Basically, people are not having enough children to replace
0:23:42 > 0:23:45those who are dying. We've got an ageing demographic
0:23:45 > 0:23:49and we haven't got enough people, enough of the population
0:23:49 > 0:23:53who are productive enough to help pay for our ageing population.
0:23:53 > 0:23:56This is... this is a proven phenomenon.
0:23:56 > 0:24:00Does it mean we are in the end times? No, I don't think it does.
0:24:00 > 0:24:01We're in difficult times.
0:24:01 > 0:24:04We're in difficult times and we need to take action.
0:24:04 > 0:24:07But we've had a lot of talk about signs in the Book of Revelation...
0:24:07 > 0:24:10You know the Catholic Church gets a lot of flack for this
0:24:10 > 0:24:14because of the Pope's view on birth control.
0:24:14 > 0:24:16It's not the Pope's view.
0:24:16 > 0:24:18It is the doctrine of the Church.
0:24:18 > 0:24:22But the doctrine of the Catholic Church asks people to
0:24:22 > 0:24:26consider being generous in terms of their families.
0:24:26 > 0:24:29And it says sex is about...
0:24:29 > 0:24:32Procreation is one element and bonding...
0:24:32 > 0:24:35I'm talking about condoms and pills and effective protective birth control.
0:24:35 > 0:24:38The Pope also said recently, the relatively new Pope,
0:24:38 > 0:24:42he said recently that protection of the environment is vital
0:24:42 > 0:24:44and protection of animals is absolutely vital.
0:24:44 > 0:24:46And yet you can't have all those people,
0:24:46 > 0:24:49exponentially expanding populations, AND do that.
0:24:49 > 0:24:50They're irreconcilable.
0:24:50 > 0:24:52No, they are not, though, Nicky.
0:24:52 > 0:24:58Because there is no method of contraception that is 100%
0:24:58 > 0:25:01fail-safe. And actually, if we are talking about the environment
0:25:01 > 0:25:05and stewardship, actually, when we produce massive amounts
0:25:05 > 0:25:09of synthetic hormones which we're then sort of excreting into
0:25:09 > 0:25:14the atmosphere and ecosystem, that's not environmentally-friendly either.
0:25:14 > 0:25:15It is completely possible.
0:25:15 > 0:25:18And lots of women now are discovering that,
0:25:18 > 0:25:21actually hormonal contraception is not right for them.
0:25:21 > 0:25:26It is damaging them. And in fact, yes, you can regulate your families.
0:25:26 > 0:25:29Nobody is saying that every time you have sex, you need to have a baby.
0:25:29 > 0:25:30Of course not.
0:25:30 > 0:25:32And of course people need to be responsible
0:25:32 > 0:25:34when they think about parenthood.
0:25:34 > 0:25:37They need to think about, you know, have they got enough resources?
0:25:37 > 0:25:41OK, so you're not quite so pessimistic about population.
0:25:41 > 0:25:42Let me bring in you now, Fiona.
0:25:42 > 0:25:45It is not so much Book of Revelations for you.
0:25:45 > 0:25:48Environment correspondent at the Guardian.
0:25:48 > 0:25:50Perhaps in your terms, we are
0:25:50 > 0:25:54a little bit more down to earth as you would see it. End of the world.
0:25:54 > 0:25:56We are talking perhaps, in your mind,
0:25:56 > 0:25:59about the end of our way of life. Is it sustainable?
0:25:59 > 0:26:05Is population, at its current rate of exponential growth, sustainable?
0:26:05 > 0:26:09I think it is very difficult to pin down future
0:26:09 > 0:26:10projections about population.
0:26:10 > 0:26:14We've just heard a very, very low future projection there.
0:26:14 > 0:26:16Projections that have a great deal of credibility would
0:26:16 > 0:26:22suggest that we will have about 12 billion people by mid- to later
0:26:22 > 0:26:25this century, and that represents a doubling
0:26:25 > 0:26:29since the mid-1990s, which, you know,
0:26:29 > 0:26:31by any reckoning is pretty huge.
0:26:31 > 0:26:38So how you actually get enough food and enough water and a decent
0:26:38 > 0:26:43way of life for all of those people is a really, really key question.
0:26:43 > 0:26:47But going further than that, what we seem to be missing in this
0:26:47 > 0:26:53debate is that this planet will carry on quite happily without us.
0:26:53 > 0:26:56We will not destroy the planet.
0:26:56 > 0:26:58We can destroy a lot of the natural world.
0:26:58 > 0:27:01We can destroy the forests, we can pollute the oceans,
0:27:01 > 0:27:05we can denude them of fish, we can destroy biodiversity and wipe out
0:27:05 > 0:27:10species, but we will never actually end the life of this planet.
0:27:10 > 0:27:15WE will be destroyed before the planet is.
0:27:15 > 0:27:18This rock will continue spinning in space
0:27:18 > 0:27:21and will continue to regenerate life long after we are gone.
0:27:21 > 0:27:24And that, I think, is a key point here.
0:27:24 > 0:27:27Because we're not just talking about what happens to this whole
0:27:27 > 0:27:29natural world that we live on, we are actually
0:27:29 > 0:27:35talking about our way of life and is our way of life sustainable?
0:27:35 > 0:27:37APPLAUSE
0:27:39 > 0:27:42Long after we are gone, there will be cockroaches
0:27:42 > 0:27:45and rat-like creatures crawling around, won't there?
0:27:45 > 0:27:47Is our way of life sustainable?
0:27:47 > 0:27:49Yes, our way of life is sustainable.
0:27:49 > 0:27:52But what I would... The whole population question
0:27:52 > 0:27:55in a way unites the religious view of the end of times
0:27:55 > 0:27:57with what became a scientific view,
0:27:57 > 0:28:00that civilisation is not sustainable.
0:28:00 > 0:28:04It was first popularised by the Reverend Thomas Malthus
0:28:04 > 0:28:06- in the beginning of the 19th century...- A famous man.
0:28:06 > 0:28:11..who said, if you reproduce indiscriminately and wantonly,
0:28:11 > 0:28:14your children and grandchildren will suffer.
0:28:14 > 0:28:17We'll have war, pestilence and famine.
0:28:17 > 0:28:21And there is obviously a religious sub-structure to all that
0:28:21 > 0:28:24and we saw scientists adopt that in the late 1960s and early
0:28:24 > 0:28:28'70s when they came out with all sorts of forecasts that,
0:28:28 > 0:28:33that society was unsustainable, the economy was unsustainable,
0:28:33 > 0:28:34growth had to be stopped.
0:28:34 > 0:28:36And they turned out to be false prophets.
0:28:36 > 0:28:38They turned out to be completely and utterly wrong.
0:28:38 > 0:28:41So when we listen to this debate, it is worth knowing that these
0:28:41 > 0:28:44people have been wrong before, completely and utterly wrong.
0:28:44 > 0:28:46Will?
0:28:46 > 0:28:48I completely challenge the notion, which you quickly
0:28:48 > 0:28:52passed by there that, yes, our way of life is sustainable.
0:28:52 > 0:28:53I absolutely don't think...
0:28:53 > 0:28:57It is if we want to retain a sort of an elite.
0:28:57 > 0:29:00A third of the planet living off the backs of the other two thirds
0:29:00 > 0:29:04of the planet, which is broadly where we are going at the moment.
0:29:04 > 0:29:06Yes. Of course we can do that.
0:29:06 > 0:29:09And you can sustain that model up to your 12 billion, 11 billion,
0:29:09 > 0:29:11whichever figure you want.
0:29:11 > 0:29:14But keeping that 7, 8 billion people...
0:29:14 > 0:29:19feeding, clothing and providing resources for...
0:29:19 > 0:29:24- It is happening in America right now.- That is rhetoric.
0:29:24 > 0:29:26It is... It is completely devoid of data.
0:29:26 > 0:29:29What is your scientific basis for proving that we are sustainable?
0:29:29 > 0:29:34The last 20 or 30 years have seen the biggest uplift
0:29:34 > 0:29:36out of poverty the world has ever seen.
0:29:36 > 0:29:40You have seen massive decrease in poverty in China, for example.
0:29:40 > 0:29:43I mean, China, over the last two or three decades, has been transformed.
0:29:43 > 0:29:45Not to say, there are about 200 million people in poverty.
0:29:45 > 0:29:49And it's denuding Africa of all its resources and its wildlife, it is eating Africa.
0:29:50 > 0:29:52Go on. Richard.
0:29:52 > 0:29:56This denuding Africa of all its resources and wildlife.
0:29:56 > 0:29:58I don't think there have been that many extinctions
0:29:58 > 0:30:01in Africa of large mammals, let's say, that we
0:30:01 > 0:30:05have been worrying about really for 100 years.
0:30:05 > 0:30:07And I hope to goodness that there never are.
0:30:08 > 0:30:12But they are not being denuded at this moment.
0:30:12 > 0:30:14The species are doing well.
0:30:14 > 0:30:17With any luck at all we will have vast amounts of rainforest
0:30:17 > 0:30:20alongside this large population.
0:30:20 > 0:30:24I don't get that this is an inevitable crunch that we
0:30:24 > 0:30:26cannot avoid.
0:30:26 > 0:30:30- Will, then Adnan.- So, west Africa's first palm oil plantation wipes out
0:30:30 > 0:30:352,000 square kilometres of rainforest and turns it into palm oil.
0:30:35 > 0:30:37When you say there is loads of wildlife left.
0:30:37 > 0:30:39Well, 400,000 African elephants,
0:30:39 > 0:30:45175,000 western lowland gorillas, 3,500 eastern lowland gorillas,
0:30:45 > 0:30:481,000 mountain gorillas, and you keep on going.
0:30:48 > 0:30:50You want to look at lions, do you want to look at rhino,
0:30:50 > 0:30:52do you want to look at pangolin,
0:30:52 > 0:30:54do you want to look at... Where do you want to...
0:30:56 > 0:30:59That is a very charismatic and telling and important list.
0:30:59 > 0:31:04But if we decide that palm oil is really not the way to use
0:31:04 > 0:31:07what used to be rainforest, then I think we will,
0:31:07 > 0:31:11only in the nick of time, stop using so much palm oil.
0:31:11 > 0:31:12Hurry, hurry, hurry!
0:31:12 > 0:31:16Why do we have to get to the brink before we make sensible decisions?
0:31:16 > 0:31:20I also think that it is very likely that there will be less pure
0:31:20 > 0:31:23wilderness than we inherited and our grandparents inherited.
0:31:23 > 0:31:27And that won't necessarily matter to the extraordinarily vital
0:31:27 > 0:31:30services that good habitat provides.
0:31:30 > 0:31:34There is a difference between absolutely fabulous virgin
0:31:34 > 0:31:37habitat, and goodness knows we want plenty of it.
0:31:37 > 0:31:39But we can probably have as much as we inherited.
0:31:39 > 0:31:43And what remains can be pretty decent stuff.
0:31:43 > 0:31:46Secondary forest, forest which is not perfect but isn't bad.
0:31:46 > 0:31:48Fiona, this is actually right on the broader
0:31:48 > 0:31:50issue for our friends from the church,
0:31:50 > 0:31:52from our friend from the mosque.
0:31:52 > 0:31:55Because it's about actually habitat loss, species loss,
0:31:55 > 0:32:02the deforestation. It is about our greed, and it's about selfishness.
0:32:02 > 0:32:04And that is where everybody - certainly on this side
0:32:04 > 0:32:06of the debate, and quite a lot on that
0:32:06 > 0:32:09side of the debate, are in total and utter agreement.
0:32:09 > 0:32:11It is symptomatic, isn't it?
0:32:11 > 0:32:14Yes. Well, one of the problems that we have got is that, you know,
0:32:14 > 0:32:17habitat loss is something that we could deal with.
0:32:17 > 0:32:18We could stop habitat loss now.
0:32:18 > 0:32:21We could save all the animals that we want to save.
0:32:21 > 0:32:23We could stop these extinctions.
0:32:23 > 0:32:28We could also bring billions of people out of poverty.
0:32:29 > 0:32:31We could stop climate change.
0:32:31 > 0:32:34We could stop polluting our oceans, we could stop overfishing.
0:32:34 > 0:32:38The problem is we need to stop all of them at once.
0:32:38 > 0:32:41And that is where we run into difficulties.
0:32:41 > 0:32:42Is that mission impossible?
0:32:42 > 0:32:45Yeah. Because problems that are soluble in themselves, you know,
0:32:45 > 0:32:46climate change, we know what to do,
0:32:46 > 0:32:49we need to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
0:32:49 > 0:32:51You know, overfishing, we know what we need to do.
0:32:51 > 0:32:55We need to leave some areas as conservation zones where
0:32:55 > 0:32:57they can regrow.
0:32:57 > 0:33:01Every single one of the problems that we have heard about and that we're facing as a planet,
0:33:01 > 0:33:02we have solutions to.
0:33:02 > 0:33:07The difficulty is that we cannot just do them one by one.
0:33:07 > 0:33:09We need to solve all of them.
0:33:09 > 0:33:11That is what religion does.
0:33:11 > 0:33:16Religion is a way of agreeing that we must do things to change things.
0:33:16 > 0:33:21Because we know there is the risk of losing what we have.
0:33:21 > 0:33:23The Jewish doctrine of Tikkun olam, of repair of the world,
0:33:23 > 0:33:25is all about that.
0:33:25 > 0:33:27We should be doing that because, well, in the Jewish idea,
0:33:27 > 0:33:30because we have no idea when the world to come is going to be,
0:33:30 > 0:33:33so therefore repair the world where we are.
0:33:33 > 0:33:36But I think all of our religions have that idea of stewardship.
0:33:36 > 0:33:39So we could do that. We have the symbol...
0:33:39 > 0:33:40Do you think religion is the answer?
0:33:40 > 0:33:42I think it does. I really do think it does.
0:33:42 > 0:33:44The rainbow covenant, for example,
0:33:44 > 0:33:47so we have this idea of the rainbow as the symbol, yeah?
0:33:47 > 0:33:50Yes, OK maybe about refraction, not refraction, I don't think so.
0:33:50 > 0:33:53It's about a symbol of the rainbow which says that God says,
0:33:53 > 0:33:55God will never destroy the world.
0:33:55 > 0:33:57But that doesn't mean we can't.
0:33:57 > 0:33:59We CAN destroy the world.
0:33:59 > 0:34:02By a doctrine which all religions share, of stewardship
0:34:02 > 0:34:06of the world, and if we could only get our message across better
0:34:06 > 0:34:09and better, and using the fact that in this world right now we are at
0:34:09 > 0:34:12the point where we can communicate with each other on a global way.
0:34:12 > 0:34:16We know what's happening in Africa, we know what's happening in China.
0:34:16 > 0:34:18A point at which we have got the technology to make these
0:34:18 > 0:34:21things work, perhaps we can make better times, not end times.
0:34:21 > 0:34:24Fiona - religion, is it the answer?
0:34:24 > 0:34:26This is quite a debate, this particular one, isn't it?
0:34:26 > 0:34:28That is a very positive outlook.
0:34:28 > 0:34:32But I think that you have to look at the other side of that.
0:34:32 > 0:34:36That if there are some religions or some people in some religions
0:34:36 > 0:34:37who believe that we are at the end time,
0:34:37 > 0:34:40then what on earth is the point of stewardship?
0:34:41 > 0:34:44We are missing a point. We are missing a point.
0:34:44 > 0:34:45There is an important point.
0:34:45 > 0:34:51The point that we are nearing our end doesn't mean that we give up.
0:34:52 > 0:34:54It means we fix our affairs.
0:34:54 > 0:34:57Can we give ourselves a stay of execution?
0:34:57 > 0:34:58- What we do is...- Can we extend it?
0:34:58 > 0:35:00No. No. It is not about extension.
0:35:00 > 0:35:02It is about fixing your behaviour.
0:35:02 > 0:35:04You are clearly not behaving right,
0:35:04 > 0:35:07there is something wrong with the world. We need to fix that.
0:35:07 > 0:35:11We need to basically escalate the good work we are now all doing.
0:35:11 > 0:35:14Can we delay the end? That is what I mean.
0:35:14 > 0:35:16It is about delaying the end, yes.
0:35:16 > 0:35:19To put it... The world, even scientifically speaking,
0:35:19 > 0:35:20will come to an end.
0:35:20 > 0:35:23- The solar system will collapse. - A couple of billion years.
0:35:23 > 0:35:25Whatever happens, it will eventually end.
0:35:25 > 0:35:27How can we actually delay that process?
0:35:27 > 0:35:30Right now, we are facing global warming, we are facing poverty,
0:35:30 > 0:35:34we are facing destruction on an astronomical magnitude.
0:35:34 > 0:35:37What are we doing about it? That is the question.
0:35:37 > 0:35:40So, believing in the end of the world doesn't mean that you give up
0:35:40 > 0:35:43and sit back and say, "OK, I am going to be destroyed now.
0:35:43 > 0:35:46"Any time, this roof will collapse on me." It is not that attitude.
0:35:46 > 0:35:49Rather, we need to do something about it, fix our affairs
0:35:49 > 0:35:52- and do something.- Well, let's talk about our standard of life,
0:35:52 > 0:35:54let's talk about whether we need to adjust that.
0:35:54 > 0:35:57Let's talk about whether some religions think it is inevitable.
0:35:57 > 0:36:00I will be with you in a second to get the Ba'ahi perspective.
0:36:00 > 0:36:02A very quick question, do you want the world to end?
0:36:02 > 0:36:05- Do I want the world to end?- Yeah. - It is not my decision.
0:36:07 > 0:36:09HE LAUGHS, APPLAUSE
0:36:09 > 0:36:12- I'm not God.- Are you looking forward to it ending?
0:36:12 > 0:36:16- My understanding, God created... - You are, aren't you?- Let me finish.
0:36:16 > 0:36:18My understanding, God created the world.
0:36:18 > 0:36:21God ultimately will destroy it in his own time.
0:36:21 > 0:36:24But you will be quite happy when it happens because...
0:36:24 > 0:36:27Well, I don't imagine I will be here on Earth when it happens.
0:36:27 > 0:36:31That's not to say that we shouldn't be good stewards of the Earth.
0:36:31 > 0:36:33- My understanding is...- But when it comes you'll be pleased,
0:36:33 > 0:36:35cos it'll mean the new Kingdom, yeah?
0:36:35 > 0:36:38Yes. I mean, Jesus Christ is coming back - we believe that.
0:36:38 > 0:36:41We believe that Jesus Christ is coming back to right
0:36:41 > 0:36:43some of the wrongs that have happened in the world.
0:36:43 > 0:36:45We believe that Jesus Christ will come back
0:36:45 > 0:36:47to establish his Kingdom on the Earth.
0:36:47 > 0:36:50Justin, is this a problem, that there are those who think,
0:36:50 > 0:36:53"You know what? It is going to come. It is inevitable. Embrace it.
0:36:53 > 0:36:55"Let's go with it."
0:36:55 > 0:36:56It's a major problem.
0:36:56 > 0:37:02Historically, there's absolutely no evidence that religion has ever benefited society at all.
0:37:02 > 0:37:06- Nonsense! - AUDIENCE: Ooh!- Come on!
0:37:06 > 0:37:09It was nice seeing you, I'll see you later on. OK?
0:37:12 > 0:37:16What happens to all the universities, all the hospitals, all the charity...?
0:37:16 > 0:37:20Religious people are the most charitable people on the planet.
0:37:23 > 0:37:25Yes, we have these debates a lot.
0:37:25 > 0:37:27Another series next year, we will have you back.
0:37:27 > 0:37:28The Crusades.
0:37:28 > 0:37:31Be quiet, everyone. Be quiet, everyone. Please!
0:37:33 > 0:37:35Wow. That was divine.
0:37:35 > 0:37:38Let's talk to... We have had a debate before and it's always fantastic.
0:37:38 > 0:37:40And we nearly had it again there.
0:37:40 > 0:37:43It's a little side road in the highway that we are on
0:37:43 > 0:37:44at the moment.
0:37:44 > 0:37:48Fidelma Meehan from the Baha'i National Spiritual Assembly.
0:37:48 > 0:37:53It's an absolutely fascinating religion and worldview,
0:37:53 > 0:37:56yours, or universal view,
0:37:56 > 0:38:00can you explain your position on our road to destruction,
0:38:00 > 0:38:03what we can do about it, and whether it is inevitable?
0:38:03 > 0:38:05Is there another way?
0:38:05 > 0:38:07Absolutely another way.
0:38:07 > 0:38:09Baha'u'llah, our founder of the Baha'i faith
0:38:09 > 0:38:13explained what is happening really in the world in a very rational way,
0:38:13 > 0:38:17in a way that I think satisfies the scientific mind,
0:38:17 > 0:38:20the religious mind, if I can put it like that.
0:38:20 > 0:38:23Baha'u'llah said that we are going through a transition,
0:38:23 > 0:38:26a big change, where the world is changing, where it's being
0:38:26 > 0:38:31seen as maybe all of these separate countries at each other's throats,
0:38:31 > 0:38:35seeing, you know, the... Based on self-interest.
0:38:35 > 0:38:37Can I just stop you there?
0:38:37 > 0:38:39We have always had separate countries, separate tribes,
0:38:39 > 0:38:43separate nations, separate groups at each other's throats.
0:38:43 > 0:38:44Nothing has changed.
0:38:44 > 0:38:46And that is what Baha'u'llah said.
0:38:46 > 0:38:48To reflect on this idea,
0:38:48 > 0:38:53to see the Earth as but one country and mankind, its citizens,
0:38:53 > 0:38:56to actually have a world embracing vision.
0:38:56 > 0:39:01I was really taken by how Fiona depicted all of these problems
0:39:01 > 0:39:04and saying we can find solutions.
0:39:04 > 0:39:07According to the Baha'i faith, the solutions will not be found
0:39:07 > 0:39:11unless we first of all see the world as one planet.
0:39:11 > 0:39:14We can still celebrate diversity, it is very much
0:39:14 > 0:39:16about unity in diversity.
0:39:16 > 0:39:19And Baha'u'llah said the wellbeing of mankind,
0:39:19 > 0:39:23its peace and security are unattainable
0:39:23 > 0:39:27unless and until its unity is firmly established.
0:39:27 > 0:39:31So, these problems we are facing, that we have heard this morning,
0:39:31 > 0:39:38are economical, environmental, security, to name but a few.
0:39:38 > 0:39:43- Are they not global issues that need a global response?- Richard?
0:39:43 > 0:39:45No, I think lots of the problems that Fiona
0:39:45 > 0:39:49and Will talk about, and they're extraordinarily important problems,
0:39:49 > 0:39:51are mostly governmental problems within countries.
0:39:53 > 0:39:55If countries are better governed
0:39:55 > 0:39:57they can better get a grip on deciding...
0:39:57 > 0:39:59Will's agreeing with you.
0:39:59 > 0:40:02Why not? They won't knock down their forest for palm oil.
0:40:02 > 0:40:04They might even come up with a rational policy
0:40:04 > 0:40:10about climate change, but that is extraordinarily difficult and a different matter.
0:40:10 > 0:40:14But it is not we all need a new world vision.
0:40:14 > 0:40:17We probably don't even need a United Nations.
0:40:17 > 0:40:21We don't need some big socialistic view about this stuff.
0:40:21 > 0:40:25Mostly what countries mostly suffer from is poor government
0:40:25 > 0:40:28- country by country.- It is not socialistic, it's cooperative.
0:40:28 > 0:40:31Yeah, and that can get very, very bossy.
0:40:31 > 0:40:32If it knocks capitalism back,
0:40:32 > 0:40:35then it will almost certainly do more harm than good.
0:40:35 > 0:40:39But I stick with good government by countries can solve a huge
0:40:39 > 0:40:40amount of these problems.
0:40:40 > 0:40:43OK, a bit of audience in a second. But then over here, Fiona.
0:40:43 > 0:40:45If the problem is we have climate change,
0:40:45 > 0:40:48we have the problems of population, we will have
0:40:48 > 0:40:52migration on a scale that we cannot even imagine at the moment.
0:40:52 > 0:40:55We will have instability, we will have tensions.
0:40:55 > 0:40:59We will have war and then the whole cycle will go on again
0:40:59 > 0:41:01and get worse and worse and worse.
0:41:01 > 0:41:05We all go faster and faster and faster. It will spin out of control.
0:41:05 > 0:41:09Massive famines are predicted for next year. Save us, Fiona.
0:41:09 > 0:41:10What can we do about it?
0:41:10 > 0:41:12What are the practical steps that we can take,
0:41:12 > 0:41:15apart from sitting in a studio and talking about it?
0:41:15 > 0:41:17I think that good government would help.
0:41:17 > 0:41:19Although what you seem to be describing is
0:41:19 > 0:41:22a sort of political vacuum.
0:41:22 > 0:41:26So I don't see how getting rid of things like the United Nations would help.
0:41:26 > 0:41:29But I think what we need to do is to look hard at the solutions,
0:41:29 > 0:41:34grasp the solutions and grasp the fact that they will require changes to our lives...
0:41:34 > 0:41:36changes to our lifestyle.
0:41:36 > 0:41:41They will require us to use less stuff,
0:41:41 > 0:41:43to use stuff more efficiently.
0:41:43 > 0:41:46Um, to live, perhaps,
0:41:46 > 0:41:54less glamorous lives, in the case of the famous 1% of the population.
0:41:54 > 0:41:56And they will require us most of all
0:41:56 > 0:41:59to actually cooperate with one another.
0:41:59 > 0:42:02It's not just something that single governments can do.
0:42:02 > 0:42:06Single governments can do very well within their own confines.
0:42:06 > 0:42:10But we have seen with big challenges like climate change,
0:42:10 > 0:42:15big challenges like pollution, which, you know, crosses borders,
0:42:15 > 0:42:21big problems like biodiversity, desertification, water scarcity,
0:42:21 > 0:42:24all these issues are ones in which we need to cooperate.
0:42:24 > 0:42:26Do we know that we need to do this?
0:42:26 > 0:42:29If you went to the streets and said, "Do you know what we need to do?
0:42:29 > 0:42:32"Do you know how bad it is?" Would the ordinary Joe and Josephine know?
0:42:32 > 0:42:34- All of these are...- Do we know? - It is well documented...
0:42:34 > 0:42:36Is this not just a middle-class conceit?
0:42:36 > 0:42:39I think that people may know about it,
0:42:39 > 0:42:42but are they willing to do something about it?
0:42:42 > 0:42:45And the single...
0:42:45 > 0:42:48Nicky, one of the single biggest challenges is, while British
0:42:48 > 0:42:53citizens expect a standard of living as we currently have it, they
0:42:53 > 0:42:58use nine times the global resources of their equivalent in Africa.
0:42:58 > 0:43:02And while we have that disparity of resource use,
0:43:02 > 0:43:04we will never get the kind of common sense that
0:43:04 > 0:43:07so many people around here have been talking about.
0:43:07 > 0:43:08Caroline, then the audience.
0:43:08 > 0:43:11Put your hands up and I will whizz round you.
0:43:11 > 0:43:13What I find really interesting about this debate is
0:43:13 > 0:43:16I'm listening to Fiona and I am agreeing with most of what
0:43:16 > 0:43:18she is saying, if not almost all of it.
0:43:18 > 0:43:21And I am agreeing with you too about, you know,
0:43:21 > 0:43:23about, I think, population figures.
0:43:23 > 0:43:26But what is interesting is that there seems to be a really
0:43:26 > 0:43:32false dichotomy being set up here between science and religion.
0:43:32 > 0:43:35So we have got science telling us this.
0:43:35 > 0:43:38Actually it's not, it is the free market and environmentalism.
0:43:38 > 0:43:40That's the dichotomy, really.
0:43:40 > 0:43:43I think the point I'm trying to make is that actually,
0:43:43 > 0:43:47none of what you are saying is incompatible with religion.
0:43:47 > 0:43:50Faith and reason are completely compatible.
0:43:53 > 0:43:56I think we need to kind of move away from this idea that,
0:43:56 > 0:43:58you know, we are looking for signs in the sky
0:43:58 > 0:44:02and this is happening, and sort of apocalyptic fundamentalism.
0:44:02 > 0:44:05Certainly from my Christian perspective,
0:44:05 > 0:44:08although I do believe that Christ is going to come
0:44:08 > 0:44:13back in a blaze of glory at the end of the world, I don't subscribe...
0:44:13 > 0:44:16You know, the Catholic Church doesn't believe
0:44:16 > 0:44:18in all this sort of apocalyptic visions.
0:44:18 > 0:44:22And the most important thing we can do is appreciate that actually
0:44:22 > 0:44:26we could die leaving the studio. We could be run over by a bus.
0:44:26 > 0:44:27Are we ready for that?
0:44:27 > 0:44:29So make the most of it while we're here.
0:44:29 > 0:44:32The lady there, in the middle with the black jumper on. Good morning.
0:44:32 > 0:44:35Morning. I have two points.
0:44:35 > 0:44:37So first, I think it is important we don't ignore
0:44:37 > 0:44:41the fact that the Western world is draining the world's resources.
0:44:41 > 0:44:43So I don't think it is a matter of too many people
0:44:43 > 0:44:45being on the Earth, because we are human.
0:44:45 > 0:44:47I think it is our right to reproduce.
0:44:47 > 0:44:50But I think the issue is the standard at which the Western
0:44:50 > 0:44:54world is living at is draining us and making it difficult for us...
0:44:54 > 0:44:57It's our right to reproduce, but there are seven billion of us
0:44:57 > 0:44:59and there's 20,000 lions. Give them a chance.
0:45:00 > 0:45:03So, yeah, I just think that the standard of living will have
0:45:03 > 0:45:08to change in the Western world so that the rest of the world can...
0:45:08 > 0:45:11can live at a decent standard of life.
0:45:11 > 0:45:15The second point is across the different Abrahamic faiths
0:45:15 > 0:45:20they all have similar opinions on how the world will end or
0:45:20 > 0:45:21what signs will come about.
0:45:21 > 0:45:23And I think they are just simply, for me,
0:45:23 > 0:45:28metaphoric predictions for what will happen. It is cause and effect.
0:45:28 > 0:45:30It is action and reaction.
0:45:30 > 0:45:34If we keep, you know, making plastic, you're going
0:45:34 > 0:45:36to lose... Do you see what I mean?
0:45:36 > 0:45:41It is predictions people made or what will happen with nature's resources?
0:45:41 > 0:45:46Anyone else across here? You, sir. A quick point from you. Go on.
0:45:46 > 0:45:48I think, firstly, I think
0:45:48 > 0:45:50rainbows are beautiful however they are derived.
0:45:50 > 0:45:52We know how they are derived.
0:45:52 > 0:45:55But in terms of solving this problem I think faith is actually very,
0:45:55 > 0:45:56very important.
0:45:56 > 0:46:01Whether your faith is religious or human,
0:46:01 > 0:46:05we have to get away from this idea of believing in ourselves -
0:46:05 > 0:46:09as in our ability to buy iPhones and cars and have everything
0:46:09 > 0:46:12and have the most amazing life at the detriment of others,
0:46:12 > 0:46:15and start realising that happiness lies not in what
0:46:15 > 0:46:18we have individually, but what we have together.
0:46:18 > 0:46:22It is also evidential. If you look at what is happening
0:46:22 > 0:46:24in the world and then infer from that.
0:46:24 > 0:46:27Pastor, we have had massive extinctions before.
0:46:27 > 0:46:30We had the late Devonian. 360 million years ago.
0:46:30 > 0:46:34We had the Permian Triassic extinction 200 million years ago.
0:46:34 > 0:46:38We had the dinosaur extinction 65 million years ago.
0:46:38 > 0:46:39Why does God keep doing it?
0:46:41 > 0:46:44I wasn't around back then, so I can't talk very much about what happened.
0:46:44 > 0:46:45A few hundred million...
0:46:45 > 0:46:47Was it just mistakes? Why does he keep doing it?
0:46:47 > 0:46:49OK, I am not so sure that all of us
0:46:49 > 0:46:53would agree with some of those timelines that you have just given.
0:46:53 > 0:46:55- AUDIENCE MEMBER:- No, no, no, no. No.
0:46:55 > 0:46:56Wait, wait, wait, wait.
0:46:56 > 0:46:58OK. Good luck with the Nobel Prize.
0:47:00 > 0:47:03I will give you the website and you can win the one for science.
0:47:03 > 0:47:04Why does God keep doing it?
0:47:04 > 0:47:07Well, I don't know. Again, I can't look backwards.
0:47:07 > 0:47:08I'm looking forwards.
0:47:08 > 0:47:12For me, knowing that Jesus Christ is coming back makes me
0:47:12 > 0:47:15- reflect on my life. - These are facts.
0:47:15 > 0:47:16Why, if it is God's plan,
0:47:16 > 0:47:19we are about... We are in the sixth great extinction.
0:47:19 > 0:47:23Why have there been five already? Why has that been God's plan?
0:47:23 > 0:47:25Well, I don't know about what I don't know.
0:47:25 > 0:47:27I know about what I do know.
0:47:27 > 0:47:30And you keep asking me about things I don't know.
0:47:30 > 0:47:31You know Napoleon existed.
0:47:31 > 0:47:33- So as a Bible believing... - That's the same thing.
0:47:33 > 0:47:37As a Bible-believing Christian, as I understand Scripture, I understand
0:47:37 > 0:47:40that Jesus Christ - there has been prophetic revelation -
0:47:40 > 0:47:44that he will return and certain things will happen when he returns.
0:47:44 > 0:47:46I mean, if we take this literalist approach to Scripture,
0:47:46 > 0:47:50we really are going to end up in some very peculiar places.
0:47:50 > 0:47:51APPLAUSE
0:47:51 > 0:47:56James Usher, the great Bishop of Armagh, a devout Calvinist,
0:47:56 > 0:47:58looked at Scripture
0:47:58 > 0:48:01and he claimed with absolute honesty
0:48:01 > 0:48:04and sincerity that the world was,
0:48:04 > 0:48:06in 1656, only 4,004 years old.
0:48:06 > 0:48:12The world was created, in the afternoon, on November 22nd.
0:48:12 > 0:48:14Now, everybody...
0:48:14 > 0:48:16That's not in the Bible, is it?
0:48:16 > 0:48:19He was using the chronologies of the Bible.
0:48:19 > 0:48:23To be honest with you, this debate is over, it ended 170 years ago.
0:48:23 > 0:48:24That particular debate.
0:48:24 > 0:48:27But let's move on to what we can do about it.
0:48:27 > 0:48:30Will, you say that we need a new way of living.
0:48:30 > 0:48:32I want to get back to the point about people
0:48:32 > 0:48:33aren't going to shift, are they?
0:48:33 > 0:48:36We like our mobile phones, we like our way of life.
0:48:36 > 0:48:39What's... How's it going to change?
0:48:39 > 0:48:43Well, I believe in a grassroots driven society.
0:48:43 > 0:48:44I think our political leaders
0:48:44 > 0:48:48and our business leaders, to an extent, have badly let us down.
0:48:48 > 0:48:51And we look around ourselves and there aren't great
0:48:51 > 0:48:54figures in history that are setting an agenda that we can all buy into.
0:48:54 > 0:48:57In fact, it is more divisive now than it seems to have
0:48:57 > 0:48:59been for a very long time.
0:48:59 > 0:49:01The rise of radicalism is an example of that.
0:49:01 > 0:49:03And as I said before, the desperate...
0:49:03 > 0:49:06millions of desperate people who are fleeing parts of the world just to
0:49:06 > 0:49:12try and scrape a decent living is very, very significant in my view.
0:49:12 > 0:49:16I don't think we should ditch the United Nations, by any means.
0:49:16 > 0:49:17I think we should...
0:49:17 > 0:49:20I think that the United Nations has got to grow up.
0:49:20 > 0:49:25And I think the United Nations has got to be part of the solution.
0:49:25 > 0:49:30- Richard.- I think it is really important that we hone in on what this business is
0:49:30 > 0:49:33of the lifestyle change that we wicked Westerners need.
0:49:33 > 0:49:35It is not giving up our mobile phones,
0:49:35 > 0:49:38which are not hugely energy expensive and are transforming
0:49:38 > 0:49:41Africa, as a matter of fact, because that is the communicating world,
0:49:41 > 0:49:43and that is great and I am all for it.
0:49:43 > 0:49:47We may have to travel less, use less jets, etc.
0:49:47 > 0:49:50We may be ought to consider being vegetarian
0:49:50 > 0:49:52because that's much more food efficient.
0:49:52 > 0:49:58There are various things we can do that don't at all stop the hugely valuable...
0:49:58 > 0:50:01Wait, wait. What is going to make us do it?
0:50:01 > 0:50:05What is going to...? You don't want to stop the beautiful exciting
0:50:05 > 0:50:09human adventure. But what is going to stop us over-consuming?
0:50:09 > 0:50:12Well, at this moment we are trying to work out
0:50:12 > 0:50:14how to use less fossil fuel.
0:50:14 > 0:50:17And some of the things we have done have been a tad irrational,
0:50:17 > 0:50:21but we are slowly and decently, fairly decently, getting there.
0:50:21 > 0:50:23But we could do the same about food.
0:50:23 > 0:50:27What we would need to be seeing is Will making a serious
0:50:27 > 0:50:31connection between a thing - I know you can make connections -
0:50:31 > 0:50:34what I am saying is those connections get made,
0:50:34 > 0:50:36they influence consumers, they influence politicians.
0:50:36 > 0:50:38We do get there.
0:50:38 > 0:50:41And better government in the country that has got the land, that has
0:50:41 > 0:50:47got the palm oil, and make sure that they sort out better land control.
0:50:47 > 0:50:49I'm going to bring Rupert in here.
0:50:49 > 0:50:53A lot of the pressures for growth of palm oil plantations
0:50:53 > 0:50:55is from environmentalists saying
0:50:55 > 0:50:57we need renewable fuels, we don't want fossil fuels,
0:50:57 > 0:51:02so we grow palm oil to use in for motor transportation...
0:51:02 > 0:51:05Look at what happens to our cousins the orang-utan.
0:51:05 > 0:51:08..to the jungles and Far East Asia and so forth.
0:51:08 > 0:51:10In fact, environmentalists are to
0:51:10 > 0:51:13blame for a lot of the destruction that has been happening,
0:51:13 > 0:51:17because they insist fossil fuels are bad, we need renewables.
0:51:17 > 0:51:20Similarly the wind farms scattered all over the Scottish hillsides,
0:51:20 > 0:51:22killing raptors and migrant birds.
0:51:22 > 0:51:25They were called into place by environmentalists
0:51:25 > 0:51:30who are perpetrators of environmental-impacted destruction.
0:51:30 > 0:51:34- Fiona?- I don't think the environmental movement has been
0:51:34 > 0:51:35perfect by any means.
0:51:35 > 0:51:38But the charge that you are levelling that they
0:51:38 > 0:51:42are destroying the world through pursuing biofuels, that is not true.
0:51:42 > 0:51:46The environmentalists have called out biofuels for more than
0:51:46 > 0:51:51a decade now and been very, very wary of the expansion of them.
0:51:51 > 0:51:53So I think on that particular issue,
0:51:53 > 0:51:55I don't think we can blame the environmental movement.
0:51:55 > 0:51:59I don't think that we have done enough environmentally.
0:51:59 > 0:52:02I think that environmentalists have not really articulated
0:52:02 > 0:52:04solutions sufficiently.
0:52:04 > 0:52:06I think what they have done is... is berate people
0:52:06 > 0:52:09and talk about problems, problems, problems
0:52:09 > 0:52:11without talking about solutions.
0:52:11 > 0:52:13And I think that's been a real issue, because everyone
0:52:13 > 0:52:16has got environmental fatigue, because of that.
0:52:17 > 0:52:18Rabbi, but Adnan, first.
0:52:18 > 0:52:22We have to really rethink how we live, you believe in the West, yeah?
0:52:25 > 0:52:27I believe all over the planet.
0:52:27 > 0:52:32The Arabs, Western countries, wherever people are wealthy,
0:52:32 > 0:52:37they need to rethink, because their mobile phones, their cars take fuel.
0:52:37 > 0:52:40And this oil money which is coming from the Middle East,
0:52:40 > 0:52:43there are wars caused because of oil.
0:52:43 > 0:52:46There are wars caused in Africa because of resources, OK?
0:52:46 > 0:52:51We need to rethink our living in that sense. We need to be more just.
0:52:51 > 0:52:53We need to distribute the wealth we have.
0:52:53 > 0:52:56We all enjoy nice cars, nice food, nice living standards,
0:52:56 > 0:52:59we need to share this with the rest of the world.
0:52:59 > 0:53:03And then we will stop this...migration
0:53:03 > 0:53:05my friend here talked about.
0:53:05 > 0:53:07All these millions of people trying to get to Europe,
0:53:07 > 0:53:10why are they coming to Europe? What is the problem? Why?
0:53:10 > 0:53:13Because they actually believe there is injustice.
0:53:13 > 0:53:17No, no. They think we are doing better and they want that.
0:53:19 > 0:53:20No, that is very true.
0:53:20 > 0:53:23To be fair, they actually do believe that the living
0:53:23 > 0:53:26standard on the other side of the Channel is better.
0:53:26 > 0:53:29So why don't we take that living standard, even 10% of it,
0:53:29 > 0:53:32to the other side of the Channel so that we stop this migration?
0:53:32 > 0:53:35- How about that? - How do we do that, Rupert?
0:53:35 > 0:53:38Well, the reason why we are better off
0:53:38 > 0:53:41is because, as Richard has said, is partly to do with governments,
0:53:41 > 0:53:43it is markets and so forth, all the things
0:53:43 > 0:53:46- that...- So you are ignoring all the political problems we're
0:53:46 > 0:53:50causing around the world just because we want to live happily?
0:53:50 > 0:53:52Are you ignoring the politics?
0:53:52 > 0:53:54Because your assumption or presumption
0:53:54 > 0:53:59- that our consumption means someone is worse off...- Our greed. - ..this is wrong.
0:53:59 > 0:54:01Our greed is causing problems in the world. It is clear.
0:54:01 > 0:54:05- It is completely wrong. That is completely wrong.- OK, we disagree.
0:54:05 > 0:54:07But what unites the environmentalists
0:54:07 > 0:54:11and religious folk is the sort of mankind is over-consuming,
0:54:11 > 0:54:14consumption is bad, we should therefore take on a vow of poverty.
0:54:14 > 0:54:16And that is a big driver for this debate.
0:54:16 > 0:54:17But what it is also,
0:54:17 > 0:54:20the corollary of that is, it's not going to happen because people
0:54:20 > 0:54:23want a better standard of living for themselves and their families.
0:54:23 > 0:54:26- Rabbi?- It's a vow of poverty, it is a vow of self-discipline.
0:54:26 > 0:54:28And that actually, it is not about a new way of living.
0:54:28 > 0:54:29It's an old way of living.
0:54:29 > 0:54:33It is one where...where you have a Sabbath where you have a day
0:54:33 > 0:54:34when you are not consuming.
0:54:34 > 0:54:36Where you have Ramadan when you have a time
0:54:36 > 0:54:40when you are not just feeding yourself.
0:54:40 > 0:54:42I'm sure there must be a Christian equivalent to that.
0:54:42 > 0:54:44- Lent.- Lent, there we are.
0:54:44 > 0:54:47All of the religions have this idea that we have got to
0:54:47 > 0:54:49discipline ourselves. You said earlier, Fiona, it is grassroots.
0:54:49 > 0:54:53You said that as well, Will, it is grassroots. It is from people.
0:54:53 > 0:54:55The government side of it, yeah, fine.
0:54:55 > 0:54:58But you need people underneath it actually changing what they want
0:54:58 > 0:55:01if you're going to change this world and give us a future.
0:55:01 > 0:55:04Fidelma, we have only heard...
0:55:04 > 0:55:06Fidelma wanted to come in here.
0:55:06 > 0:55:08I really feel it is about attitude change.
0:55:08 > 0:55:12It is about seeing the Earth as one country.
0:55:12 > 0:55:15And seeing how we can work together.
0:55:15 > 0:55:18As I said earlier, Baha'u'llah said, "The Earth is but one country
0:55:18 > 0:55:20"and mankind its citizens."
0:55:20 > 0:55:22This is a statement of reality.
0:55:22 > 0:55:25Reciprocity and cooperation works in the universe.
0:55:25 > 0:55:28It works in the human body. Could we give it a try?
0:55:28 > 0:55:30Could we not give it a chance?
0:55:30 > 0:55:34Starting at the grassroots, as I think this debate is going, to the
0:55:34 > 0:55:35grassroots, with all of us
0:55:35 > 0:55:38reflecting on what are the attitudes that are going to help us
0:55:38 > 0:55:42in this world to build a better world, a more sustainable world,
0:55:42 > 0:55:45most importantly, a more just world.
0:55:45 > 0:55:49What is that world going to be like for our grandchildren's children?
0:55:49 > 0:55:50Will?
0:55:52 > 0:55:53I think it has been said many times,
0:55:53 > 0:55:56actually just recently that the next generation is going to be the
0:55:56 > 0:56:02first generation for many that will be worse off than their parents
0:56:02 > 0:56:03in our Western world
0:56:03 > 0:56:05and I think that is likely to come to pass.
0:56:05 > 0:56:07If we are going to survive, they will have to be.
0:56:07 > 0:56:09You have been calling for that.
0:56:09 > 0:56:12Indeed. So in other words, what I would suggest is,
0:56:12 > 0:56:16the UK, I think, is the only one of the big five economies
0:56:16 > 0:56:20in the world that puts 0.7% of GDP into overseas development.
0:56:20 > 0:56:23Now some people think that overseas development is a mistake.
0:56:23 > 0:56:26- I fundamentally believe... - We debated that last week.
0:56:26 > 0:56:28Yeah, so what we need is we need,
0:56:28 > 0:56:31like a Marshall Plan for the world, we need to build capacity,
0:56:31 > 0:56:34resources and opportunity in countries that
0:56:34 > 0:56:37currently are deprived of those, so that we can share,
0:56:37 > 0:56:41as my friend here says, the world in a more equitable way.
0:56:41 > 0:56:44APPLAUSE
0:56:44 > 0:56:45Caroline?
0:56:45 > 0:56:48You did want to come in, didn't you?
0:56:48 > 0:56:51It is interesting, because this all comes back to a really
0:56:51 > 0:56:55fundamental and interesting question which is, why are we here
0:56:55 > 0:56:57and what are we on this planet for?
0:56:57 > 0:57:00Earlier you talked about, you know, the extinctions, you know,
0:57:00 > 0:57:03the mass extinctions and why did God create dinosaurs?
0:57:03 > 0:57:05Why did God get rid of dinosaurs?
0:57:05 > 0:57:09Well, my answer to that is, God created the world to give
0:57:09 > 0:57:12glory back to him. Why did he create the dinosaurs?
0:57:12 > 0:57:14Because they are cool. Why not?
0:57:14 > 0:57:18It wasn't very glorious for the pterodactyls when they bit the dust.
0:57:18 > 0:57:21Well, you know, the Earth is cyclical.
0:57:21 > 0:57:23But what we as Christians believe,
0:57:23 > 0:57:27and I am sure actually Muslims and Jews would agree, we are
0:57:27 > 0:57:31all here to reflect and to give glory to our Creator.
0:57:31 > 0:57:34And we need to get away from, you know, selfish consumerism,
0:57:34 > 0:57:38where the individual is king.
0:57:38 > 0:57:40I think what we are...we are...
0:57:40 > 0:57:43We are scraps of stardust that
0:57:43 > 0:57:46produce consciousness and we're about to be able to reproduce probably
0:57:46 > 0:57:51the means of powering ourselves the way the sun started it all for us.
0:57:51 > 0:57:55And what the future generations will almost certainly find,
0:57:55 > 0:57:58unless things go very, very, weirdly wrong,
0:57:58 > 0:58:02is that human life goes on being extraordinary, fabulous,
0:58:02 > 0:58:05fascinating and very, very interesting to be around.
0:58:05 > 0:58:08But in a great span of time - 4.5 billion years -
0:58:08 > 0:58:12we are just a tiny pinprick in the ocean, aren't we?
0:58:12 > 0:58:14But we are consciousness.
0:58:14 > 0:58:18Out of all those billions of years, what happened was us.
0:58:18 > 0:58:22And I find it very hard not to celebrate the fact that
0:58:22 > 0:58:27a piece of stardust becoming consciousness, and it's global.
0:58:27 > 0:58:28Thank you all very much indeed.
0:58:28 > 0:58:31As ever, the debate will continue on Twitter and online.
0:58:31 > 0:58:33It may not be the end of the world, it's the end of the series
0:58:33 > 0:58:36of The Big Questions. Back in January. God willing.
0:58:36 > 0:58:37Until then, goodbye.
0:58:37 > 0:58:40From everyone here in Uxbridge, have a great summer.
0:58:40 > 0:58:41APPLAUSE