:00:10. > :00:16.Today on the big question is, do we need a British Islam? -- today on
:00:17. > :00:30.The Big Questions. Good morning. I am Nikki Campbell.
:00:31. > :00:34.Welcome to The Big Questions. Today we live from Bradford Grammar School
:00:35. > :00:39.in west Yorkshire to debate a very big question. Do we need a British
:00:40. > :00:47.Islam. Welcome, everyone, to The Big Questions. Now, is land is the
:00:48. > :00:54.fastest-growing religion in the United Kingdom. The 2011 census
:00:55. > :00:58.found 2.75 million Muslims in the UK and their numbers are growing ten
:00:59. > :01:03.times faster than the general British population. But there is as
:01:04. > :01:07.much that divides as unites British Muslims. Their forefathers came from
:01:08. > :01:11.very different parts of the world. In Bradford, most Muslims come from
:01:12. > :01:16.Pakistan but in London, Bangladeshis are predominant. Others have come
:01:17. > :01:20.here from the Caribbean, Africa or the Far East. And then there is the
:01:21. > :01:27.converts, 100,000 of them, two thirds women. What unites them all
:01:28. > :01:31.is where they live now, Britain. And some British Muslims are now asking
:01:32. > :01:38.if the time has come to develop a distinctly British version of Islam.
:01:39. > :01:42.So we have gathered together Muslim theologians, academics, social
:01:43. > :01:48.activists, scholars, campaigners and politicians to debate that idea. And
:01:49. > :01:57.you can join in on Twitter or online by logging on to our website and
:01:58. > :02:00.following the links. There will be lots of contributions from our
:02:01. > :02:05.excellent, lively local audience here in Bradford. Do we need a
:02:06. > :02:12.British Islam? Good morning, everyone. Adam Dean, you made a
:02:13. > :02:17.panorama on this about a year ago. What would a British Islam be? What
:02:18. > :02:23.would it look like? It would definitely be an Islam that has not
:02:24. > :02:25.been hijacked by extremists and fundamentalists, and unfortunately
:02:26. > :02:31.one of the greatest challenges we have right now for Islam is that the
:02:32. > :02:40.dominant reading of Islam is one that has lost all of its beauty and
:02:41. > :02:45.content. So what is an extremist? What is an orthodox Muslim? These
:02:46. > :02:49.terms are difficult to define. Yes. What you find within the Muslim
:02:50. > :02:53.community is that there is a tension between the rationalist Muslims and
:02:54. > :02:57.the anti-rationalist Muslims. Unfortunately, the anti-rationalist
:02:58. > :03:02.Muslims are influenced by puritanical readings of Islam, like
:03:03. > :03:10.why had is, and they have the upper hand. There are many reasons why
:03:11. > :03:14.that is. What does puritanical mean? It is a reading of Islam that is
:03:15. > :03:20.literal, divorced from ethics. It is a particular idea that you can only
:03:21. > :03:26.understand good and evil, right and wrong from religious scripture. And
:03:27. > :03:35.individuals that I would deem to be puritanical have a very literalist
:03:36. > :03:43.understanding. I cannot really see the link to extremism. What we have
:03:44. > :03:48.to appreciate is that Islam, like Christianity, is a universal
:03:49. > :03:52.religion. It is practised by different races in different
:03:53. > :03:57.countries. There is no such thing as British Islam, American Islam. Yes,
:03:58. > :03:59.the context is different and there are British Muslims, American
:04:00. > :04:10.Muslims, but I find it problematic to actually paint all Muslims with
:04:11. > :04:13.the same brush and say, you know what, there are are puritanical
:04:14. > :04:20.Islam... I do not think he is doing that, with respect. One second,
:04:21. > :04:25.please. I take your point, and you have made your point. It is unfair
:04:26. > :04:36.to tar everyone with the same brush. I want to ask you a question. Is
:04:37. > :04:41.orthodox Islam, is that a problem? Very much so. In my view, there are
:04:42. > :04:45.three elements to a distinctive British Islam. The first is respect
:04:46. > :04:48.for a plurality of beliefs. Including those that were
:04:49. > :04:52.traditionally the boot, like identifying as a progressive Muslim.
:04:53. > :04:55.traditionally the boot, like The second element is working
:04:56. > :05:02.together towards the common good, as Muslims and
:05:03. > :05:05.together towards the common good, as third element is respect for
:05:06. > :05:07.equality and human rights. Sadly, this is were some of the more
:05:08. > :05:19.conservative elements of Muslim have fallen back. Forgive me, I want to
:05:20. > :05:23.get my definition is right. Equality, such as what? Forced
:05:24. > :05:28.gender segregation? A prime example is the University's guidance on
:05:29. > :05:33.gender segregation in universities, which a coalition of activists and
:05:34. > :05:42.groups including Muslims had to work hard to overturn. And it was later
:05:43. > :05:51.affirmed by the equality and human rights... Sexual equality? LGBT
:05:52. > :05:56.equality. Adam, tell me one theological aspect which you believe
:05:57. > :06:04.is no longer applicable to the modern age. Before I do that, I want
:06:05. > :06:08.to clarify, there is a caricature understanding of what I say.
:06:09. > :06:11.to clarify, there is a caricature think almost limbs are in this
:06:12. > :06:14.predicament. I think that the dominating voices within our
:06:15. > :06:20.communities are in minority but these individuals that are pushing
:06:21. > :06:28.this reading of Islam. You can as the imam a question. The majority of
:06:29. > :06:32.these scholars, as an example, that dominate the Islamic discourse,
:06:33. > :06:35.believe that it is legitimate to kill an apostate, someone who has
:06:36. > :06:40.decided to leave the Islamic faith. That is the epitome of
:06:41. > :06:47.irrationality, to kill someone for changing their mind. What is your
:06:48. > :06:54.direct question to the Imam? Do you support such a ruling. When you are
:06:55. > :06:59.talking about Islam, British Islam, the first thing I would ask you,
:07:00. > :07:04.Nicky, as this question ever been asked about any other faith? Do we
:07:05. > :07:14.say, what is the British version of Sikhism or Judaism or... ? That is
:07:15. > :07:23.my first question. And to his question first. -- and Sir his
:07:24. > :07:25.question. I will. We come down to the theological arguments, Islam is
:07:26. > :07:33.not just about theological arguments, Islam is all about love
:07:34. > :07:40.and peace and respect. But that is just lip service. How much love can
:07:41. > :07:43.you have to someone when you kill them for changing your mind. My
:07:44. > :07:47.question to you, do you believe there is a problem of extremism
:07:48. > :07:53.currently? Do you believe it is a problem? There is absolutely. It is
:07:54. > :07:58.exacerbated by people. I will be back with you. There is a
:07:59. > :08:03.parenthesis here. A couple of points that need to be explained. First, we
:08:04. > :08:11.are living in a time where a lot of Muslims are devoid of ethics. I did
:08:12. > :08:17.not say that. Devoid of the ethical element. In West Yorkshire, there
:08:18. > :08:20.are floods taking place, and there are Muslims helping their fellow
:08:21. > :08:27.citizens. Where is the void of ethics? They are driven by faith.
:08:28. > :08:33.That is one important element. He talks about a vocal minority and the
:08:34. > :08:37.reality is this. From someone like Adam, who is an outreach Director, a
:08:38. > :08:43.laughable title, for the Quilliam Foundation. That is not a pleasant
:08:44. > :08:48.thing to say. They keep talking about how these people are taking
:08:49. > :08:51.over our country, doing this, subverting British values, and
:08:52. > :08:55.really the reality is that if you look at the literature and the
:08:56. > :08:58.reality of British Muslims, none of that makes sense. This question of
:08:59. > :09:06.British Islam, if you talk to most British Muslims, I'm on about the
:09:07. > :09:11.weather, I queue up, I have fish and chips and fried eggs, how much more
:09:12. > :09:16.do you want me to integrate? What team do you support? Arsenal. Oh
:09:17. > :09:20.dear. I am tired of that question. I think you will agree, you had time
:09:21. > :09:26.to make that point and I will be back to you later. People watching
:09:27. > :09:30.will think that you did singularly not and Sir Adam's question. To be
:09:31. > :09:40.fair, ask the question again. You believe that there is a problem
:09:41. > :09:43.within the religious discourse, and element of extremism, and do you
:09:44. > :09:46.think we should condemn the ruling on apostates, that we should kill
:09:47. > :09:51.them? Is that not a problem? Absolutely. But Islam as freedom of
:09:52. > :09:58.choice and you can choose whether you want to be in Islam or out of
:09:59. > :10:03.Islam. And there is no compulsion to bring somebody into Islam. But if
:10:04. > :10:09.somebody is a Muslim who decides not to be a Muslim, do you think... I
:10:10. > :10:15.will come to you in a minute. Please, be patient. Do you believe
:10:16. > :10:21.that person should be killed? You are pinning down one single
:10:22. > :10:26.argument. The majority of the jurors... Personally, I think that
:10:27. > :10:32.person should not be killed. But you are asking me about... Will you let
:10:33. > :10:40.me speak. I have stopped. I am going to leave and I will see you all
:10:41. > :10:44.later on. Imam, carry on. I personally believe that person
:10:45. > :10:50.should not be killed. That is my personal opinion. That's good (!).
:10:51. > :10:56.Which is great. Islam is much wider than that. If you look at it that
:10:57. > :11:00.way, every single faith and democracy, there is always one or
:11:01. > :11:05.two ideas that the majority of people do not agree with. Look at
:11:06. > :11:10.the larger picture. There is new ones. I am happy that you believe
:11:11. > :11:15.they should not be killed but do you not know that the majority of the
:11:16. > :11:17.school of thought actually believes that apostates should be killed and
:11:18. > :11:22.that we need to challenge these ideas? We're not going to get any
:11:23. > :11:29.further with that. We had a kind of answer. What would you like to say?
:11:30. > :11:34.The majority of Muslims would not say they thought they should be
:11:35. > :11:39.killed. There is an innate principle in the ground where it says that no
:11:40. > :11:42.compulsion should be in the religion. That is the reality. But
:11:43. > :11:45.there are a lot of people like you who feed into this anti-Muslim
:11:46. > :11:50.narrative that Muslims do not accept anonymous limbs and are unwilling to
:11:51. > :11:53.engage with them. And that feeds back into the rise of Islamophobia.
:11:54. > :11:59.And who is the victim, someone like me who is participating with the
:12:00. > :12:03.wider society, and engaging, and trying to implement the universal
:12:04. > :12:08.values of freedom and justice and pluralism that is not restricted by
:12:09. > :12:15.secularism only. These are universal values. Universal values. Shared by
:12:16. > :12:20.Muslims and many other people. I am sorry to come back to another man,
:12:21. > :12:27.but you did say there that this is the problem. What do you mean? The
:12:28. > :12:30.problem is that when we accepted these theological ideas, that we
:12:31. > :12:37.should kill apostates, and for your information, there is a hadith that
:12:38. > :12:39.says kill anyone that changes their religion, and is accepted by three
:12:40. > :12:46.schools of thought, potentially four. You need to get your facts
:12:47. > :12:50.right. We have hate preachers and scholars visiting university
:12:51. > :12:53.campuses that are actually saying, yes, it is OK to kill apostates as
:12:54. > :12:57.long as they meet the conditions. That is like saying it is OK to rip
:12:58. > :13:03.someone as long as they meet the conditions, it is absurd. Is there a
:13:04. > :13:06.place in modern Britain for any kind of judgment on divorce or marriage
:13:07. > :13:14.or matters of relationships between two adult people for sharia court?
:13:15. > :13:18.Absolutely not. This is why we should not have the British Islam.
:13:19. > :13:22.There would not be consensus. I think we have had multiculturalism
:13:23. > :13:32.and now we have multi-faith is. What is wrong with sharia court? Are we
:13:33. > :13:36.telling minority women what is best for them? But marriage is an act of
:13:37. > :13:41.worship in Islam. It is also a contact. Are we saying that Muslim
:13:42. > :13:45.women should not have equal opportunities to have access to the
:13:46. > :13:52.war in the same way that no muscle women do? There is no regulation of
:13:53. > :13:59.sharia courts. They are not courts, they are arbitration councils. It is
:14:00. > :14:01.important to not caricature rise -- make a caricature of the whole
:14:02. > :14:05.thing. This is vital, because what happens is we end up having a sound
:14:06. > :14:10.bites discussion and people need to understand. I would recommend people
:14:11. > :14:15.to do some research. The number of sharia courts is grossly
:14:16. > :14:18.exaggerated. The numbers come from a research document that says there
:14:19. > :14:23.exaggerated. The numbers come from a are about 85, but most are based on
:14:24. > :14:26.online websites. The numbers are not clear, they are exaggerated.
:14:27. > :14:31.Secondly, the arbitration Council is not legally binding. Thirdly, when
:14:32. > :14:34.we talk about sharia court in this way, it leads into a narrative that
:14:35. > :14:40.these people are taking over our country, and that is not true. It is
:14:41. > :14:45.frustrating that people feed into this narrative. That is not what she
:14:46. > :14:50.said. A big part of it is saying that women should not have access to
:14:51. > :14:54.our courts. It is important. Who is saying that they shouldn't? The
:14:55. > :14:58.reality is that people will go for arbitration within their own
:14:59. > :15:04.community as they do. But the law of the land, surely, should overrule
:15:05. > :15:09.that? And it does. I have been doing this work for 30 years, and over
:15:10. > :15:13.that time, I have seen that Muslim women are being coerced and policed
:15:14. > :15:19.by their families. Part of it is also the fault of the government,
:15:20. > :15:22.legal aid cuts. Less access to English courts, and actually seeking
:15:23. > :15:28.redress from coercion. Let me finish, let me finish. I have seen
:15:29. > :15:31.women who said, I do not particularly want to go there but I
:15:32. > :15:33.am being told that I have to go there. They do not want to challenge
:15:34. > :15:37.am being told that I have to go the judgments because they will be
:15:38. > :15:39.seen to be challenging the world word of God. I am not saying it is a
:15:40. > :15:53.Muslim problem... There were Jewish arbitration
:15:54. > :15:57.tribunal is in operation. That was Tony Blair's government, to use the
:15:58. > :16:03.arbitration act to extend it to the Muslim community. Why do we need a
:16:04. > :16:06.parallel legal system when we have the English Courts? I have seen
:16:07. > :16:10.Muslim tribunal is where women have been told to hand over their
:16:11. > :16:12.children to fathers at the age of seven, which is contained within a
:16:13. > :16:20.religious texts. seven, which is contained within a
:16:21. > :16:26.going to have to seven, which is contained within a
:16:27. > :16:30.perpetrator, potentially, usually horrific abuse. They are in a room
:16:31. > :16:36.with four men. THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE
:16:37. > :16:41.It is not acceptable. I work with women from all backgrounds, not just
:16:42. > :16:45.Muslim women. I am a Muslim woman, but I work with other women. What
:16:46. > :16:50.Yasmin said is more about culture, the oppression of men. We work with
:16:51. > :16:54.people the oppression of men. We work with
:16:55. > :17:01.violence across the board, it is not just Muslim women. We have cultural
:17:02. > :17:09.practices within our family. just Muslim women. We have cultural
:17:10. > :17:16.that oppression, so we are not just only working with women from Muslim
:17:17. > :17:20.communities. In terms of sharia court, and cancel, some women feel
:17:21. > :17:27.comfortable going there, and that is their choice. That is the choice
:17:28. > :17:31.they are making. I would like to hear from women. Yasmin. I am really
:17:32. > :17:40.tired of that cultural, this is religious. We should separated.
:17:41. > :17:44.Please let me finish. Are using that Islam came in a context where there
:17:45. > :17:50.was no patriarch your misogyny? THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE
:17:51. > :17:55.OK, everyone. What about other aspects. Are there any aspects of
:17:56. > :18:05.theology that need to be reinterpreted. Sahar, you can maybe
:18:06. > :18:11.come to us on this and explain. It is something that is maybe
:18:12. > :18:20.misunderstood by people out with sharia -- out with Islam. I woman's
:18:21. > :18:25.word is worst -- is worth half that of a man's. How can you as an
:18:26. > :18:33.intelligent, professional person except that? I will explain to you.
:18:34. > :18:38.That is the thing. There are certain principles in Islam that are
:18:39. > :18:45.applicable in certain contexts. The verse that you mention in the Koran,
:18:46. > :18:53.it is mentioned in the Koran, but in a certain context. When the woman
:18:54. > :18:59.does not have a dependent, she has half of the inheritance. If she is
:19:00. > :19:04.in charge of her house, or she is responsible for providing a living
:19:05. > :19:10.for her family, she has an equal share of inheritance with men. It is
:19:11. > :19:17.not black and white. The word is worth half that of a man's. You have
:19:18. > :19:22.to see these cases individually. Two female witnesses for one man, how
:19:23. > :19:27.can you accept that? There is a confusion. You're talking about a
:19:28. > :19:31.different verse. The sister is talking about another verse. The
:19:32. > :19:37.witness is in terms of a contract, for every man there must be two
:19:38. > :19:43.women. Puritanical Muslims believe, they extrapolate from that, that I
:19:44. > :19:48.woman is less than a man, as a witness. It is not controversial,
:19:49. > :19:53.but what they misunderstand is the rationale to the verse. It says, so
:19:54. > :19:55.the other one may remind her. It means that women in those times were
:19:56. > :20:01.not involved in financial transactions. Where we part with the
:20:02. > :20:08.extreme is, in modern society we say that women are engaged in public
:20:09. > :20:11.life, involved with financial transactions, and they are
:20:12. > :20:27.competent. Extremist Muslims. Mac we are on the same side. -- extremist
:20:28. > :20:32.Muslims... The biggest driver of Islamophobia is denial that there is
:20:33. > :20:38.a problem to begin with. APPLAUSE
:20:39. > :20:42.Can I just finished? As for his jibe at me, making fun of my position at
:20:43. > :20:49.the Quilliam Foundation, that is ironic given that the leader of your
:20:50. > :20:53.foundation thought that he was persecuted by Mossad because they
:20:54. > :21:03.stole his shoe. Maybe there is a serious point, Raza. A leading light
:21:04. > :21:09.in your organisation at... No longer. Lots of people lampooned him
:21:10. > :21:12.because of the level of scrutiny and intimidation, he was convinced that
:21:13. > :21:22.his shoes were stolen by Mossad. You think they were? He has been
:21:23. > :21:27.harassed many times. It may be true. It might play to a certain sense of
:21:28. > :21:32.persecution, a persecution complex, is Mossad broke in and stole one of
:21:33. > :21:36.his shoes. There is an article in the Guardian about how the Stasi had
:21:37. > :21:41.employed certain tactics of subversion for individuals in the
:21:42. > :21:46.past. You can read this article, changing the tea bags in people's
:21:47. > :21:49.houses, making them feel they are losing their minds.
:21:50. > :21:55.THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE The harassment of a Muslim activist
:21:56. > :21:59.who speaks out against Israel's occupation of Palestine, who
:22:00. > :22:03.criticises the government on Draconian policies, harassment of
:22:04. > :22:10.the Muslim is not surprising. Look at what Adam is doing right now. We
:22:11. > :22:15.are talking about British Islam, sharia, and he brings in this issue.
:22:16. > :22:22.It is very distracting. Now the boot is on the other foot. Let me take it
:22:23. > :22:27.over here. Is there a problem with orthodox Islam? Those that believe
:22:28. > :22:32.they follow the true path of Islam will find that grossly offensive, an
:22:33. > :22:37.attack on their beliefs? This is the heart of the problem. If you look at
:22:38. > :22:40.the entirety of Islamic history, there have been more disagreements
:22:41. > :22:47.among Muslims about the truth than agreements. The current situation is
:22:48. > :22:52.not any different. These terms that we are using ad about conservative
:22:53. > :22:58.and the extreme Islam. What do you meaning is likely by conservative
:22:59. > :23:03.Islam? If you mean that conservative Islam represents exclusionary ideas,
:23:04. > :23:09.if you think that conservative Islam is breeding supremacist ideas, this
:23:10. > :23:13.is the heart of the problem. The same terminology is understood in so
:23:14. > :23:18.many different ways. This quest to find the truth, it has been going on
:23:19. > :23:24.for a very long time. It goes back to the heart of the discussion about
:23:25. > :23:29.if we need a British Islam or not. If you look at the ways in which
:23:30. > :23:32.Islam has been manifesting itself throughout history, Islam has been
:23:33. > :23:41.able to fuse itself with different cultures. Sorry. I appreciate your
:23:42. > :23:45.point about the contesting of terms. But what I find about this British
:23:46. > :23:50.Islam argument, for me, and many of the youngest ones I have spoken to,
:23:51. > :23:56.for me it is the colonial undertones. What does the minority
:23:57. > :24:01.need to do more to fit in with the majority? Integration is a two-way
:24:02. > :24:06.street. David Cameron says that women need to learning Laois to
:24:07. > :24:13.combat extremism, but there is no link. All these different things.
:24:14. > :24:16.You have people saying that we are against sharia, and yet George
:24:17. > :24:20.Osborne introduces the first ever Islamic bond system in this country
:24:21. > :24:27.with the Coalition Government. There is no consistency. There is not a
:24:28. > :24:31.single Islamic community in this country. The heart of the problem is
:24:32. > :24:46.there are certain individuals, certain groups, but Mike -- certain
:24:47. > :24:53.groups. Mac nonsense mac -- THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE
:24:54. > :24:58.There are many interpretations of this.
:24:59. > :25:03.I am sure that Sahar and others would say this is an outrageous
:25:04. > :25:09.thing to say. Wearing avails about equality, about freedom of
:25:10. > :25:12.expression. It is about her articulating her religious and
:25:13. > :25:16.political beliefs. What are you talking about? We have talked about
:25:17. > :25:21.gender segregation but I am talking about the empowerment of women in
:25:22. > :25:26.religious spaces more broadly. Many mosques in the country do not even
:25:27. > :25:33.have adequate space for women. A group of us decided to set up our
:25:34. > :25:38.own. As far as I am aware, it is the only mosque in the country which is
:25:39. > :25:44.open to LGBT people. It creates a space even for ex-Muslims to come
:25:45. > :25:49.to, to come to our events and listen to our perspectives. We need a space
:25:50. > :25:55.that respects different viewpoints. We have not heard from Naz get.
:25:56. > :25:59.Let's talk about women in Islam. Anyone who wants to make a point
:26:00. > :26:04.about the position of women in Islam, please put your hand up. I
:26:05. > :26:09.will be right with you. Good morning. What I do not understand
:26:10. > :26:14.is, you live in Britain, so your loyalty, as far as I'm concerned,
:26:15. > :26:18.should be to Britain. You should abide by the laws of the land, so
:26:19. > :26:25.why are we even talking about sharia cancels? You have laws here that
:26:26. > :26:31.protect equality for women. We have heard the very articulate answer to
:26:32. > :26:35.that from Raza. The gentle man with your hand up. Everyone seems to have
:26:36. > :26:43.these conflicting points on the front row. What if I know nothing
:26:44. > :26:48.about Islam, what Muslim do I talk to to find out? Depending on who you
:26:49. > :26:56.talk to, you get a different version of Islam. It is clueless. Many forms
:26:57. > :27:03.of Islam. This is why this term, the Muslim community, is so meaningless.
:27:04. > :27:08.It is about human beings. Naz Shah, good morning. Your MP for this neck
:27:09. > :27:18.of the woods. Yes, welcome to my constituency. It is good to have you
:27:19. > :27:25.here. What about women in Islam Quad -- women in Islam? Let me make a few
:27:26. > :27:29.points. In terms of women and sharia courts, there is an issue. I am
:27:30. > :27:34.aware of women that have gone that have been encouraged to go back to
:27:35. > :27:47.violent partners. Let's not confuse that with religion. I sit here as a
:27:48. > :27:52.women -- woman who is very anti-Muslim men because of the
:27:53. > :27:57.experience of my mother, and the experiences I had. Forced marriage?
:27:58. > :28:02.Absolutely. 15 years ago, I met some good Muslims who taught me what real
:28:03. > :28:07.Islam was, and I then learned about Islam. I struggled with the fact
:28:08. > :28:13.that the lady over here is saying that we have got a lot. Let me be
:28:14. > :28:19.clear, I campaign nationally against inequalities in the British justice
:28:20. > :28:24.system when it comes to women. Do not tell me that is just an Islamic
:28:25. > :28:28.phenomenon. The British justice system is not equal forward line.
:28:29. > :28:38.Neither is any country. We have inequality. Can I make this point?
:28:39. > :28:44.It is all about direction of travel. Absolutely. In terms of sharia
:28:45. > :28:50.courts, in terms of where they act as media areas, where there are bad
:28:51. > :28:54.practices, we need to rule that out, women should not be encouraged to go
:28:55. > :29:05.back to valid partners are persecuted, children should be held
:29:06. > :29:11.with respect. -- intermediaries. As for the Quilliam Foundation, I will
:29:12. > :29:15.name the organisation. For me, only yesterday I read that the Quilliam
:29:16. > :29:20.Foundation had been knocked back by 45 institutes in Australia who
:29:21. > :29:25.refuse to engage with them. Can I just answer? I have given you the
:29:26. > :29:31.respect to listen to you, and I respect that in return. Going back
:29:32. > :29:37.to the Quilliam Foundation without people, let's be clear, I was
:29:38. > :29:43.tweeted yesterday as a member of the home affairs select omitted. I took
:29:44. > :29:50.evidence from the foundation. The Quilliam Foundation city and tell us
:29:51. > :29:55.we are in denial. To me the Quilliam Foundation is stripped of all
:29:56. > :30:00.credibility. We are in denial of things. In Bradford, there is no
:30:01. > :30:04.denial, there is an issue of radicalisation and safeguarding.
:30:05. > :30:09.There is an issue of safeguarding people were the likes of Daesh reach
:30:10. > :30:14.into our homes through social media and the Internet. Nobody is denying
:30:15. > :30:19.that. Where we are different is our response to that issue.
:30:20. > :30:28.We will address some of those issues of radicalisation and security in a
:30:29. > :30:33.few moments. Thanks for that, it was very cute. But it is nothing to do
:30:34. > :30:37.with religion. When we say that religion has something to do with
:30:38. > :30:44.sharia courts and partners going back to their spouses and being
:30:45. > :30:48.victims of domestic violence, you say we need to make a distinction
:30:49. > :30:52.with religion, but the point of going to a sharia Council is because
:30:53. > :30:54.of religion. One of the reasons they used to justify turning back to
:30:55. > :31:00.abusive partners is because they believe the mandate about women. Not
:31:01. > :31:07.in all cases, but in some cases, we must... Let me finish. There is a
:31:08. > :31:13.sense of denial here that there is a problem in the way we read the
:31:14. > :31:17.Koran. I do not believe that the Koran mandates beating women but a
:31:18. > :31:29.lot of Muslim scholars do. Let me finish. Imam, where the minute. Can
:31:30. > :31:34.I ask you a question. Can I ask a question about sharia courts? We
:31:35. > :31:38.have kind of moved on. When you are saying, is there a difference system
:31:39. > :31:42.altogether, not at all. We have the laws of this country, and sharia
:31:43. > :31:48.courts are not two parallel systems, they are there to subtly amended the
:31:49. > :31:52.courts that are already there. And the second thing that comes in,
:31:53. > :31:55.those women who are going to the sharia councils, I don't know where
:31:56. > :32:00.the court system came from, originally it was a sharia Council.
:32:01. > :32:10.They are going on their own accord. Nobody is asking them. Yasmin
:32:11. > :32:13.disagrees. There is a couple of points. That was a key point about
:32:14. > :32:19.the of their own accord. Two responses. Naz Shah and others were
:32:20. > :32:24.involved in this personal case. And I was part of that. We have seen the
:32:25. > :32:29.English courts develop a society develops. My issue is that we are
:32:30. > :32:33.setting up a parallel system. The other thing is that it is
:32:34. > :32:37.reductionist. That is what I'm saying, a parallel system. It should
:32:38. > :32:43.be the system. But in my experience... Can you let her? Can
:32:44. > :32:49.you let her speak? She had not finished. You can actually achieve a
:32:50. > :32:58.lot of these things from a normal English magistrates as well. What
:32:59. > :33:04.you are talking about... That can be... Steady, go. Can I make this
:33:05. > :33:11.point? I have vast experience of women who do not want to go to those
:33:12. > :33:17.systems, but are pressured. OK. I have also seen in situations where
:33:18. > :33:24.men, Jewish men and musclemen withhold religious divorces. And
:33:25. > :33:29.that can hold up proceedings and there is huge pressure in terms of
:33:30. > :33:37.child custody. -- Muslim men. My issue with this, why do we need a
:33:38. > :33:43.supplementary system? We spent some time discussing sharia law. But it
:33:44. > :33:48.is reductionist. We talk about minority women, they have a culture.
:33:49. > :33:53.But are we just Muslims? Are we nothing else? Does our national and
:33:54. > :33:58.ethnic identity matter for nothing? I want to talk... I am desperately
:33:59. > :34:05.trying to steer the conversation to that. We heard from Naz Shah about
:34:06. > :34:15.forced marriage, saying that a lot of these things are cultural. Do you
:34:16. > :34:19.think, Nahid, when we are talking about things like forced marriage
:34:20. > :34:23.and female genital mutilation, nothing to do with religion, forced
:34:24. > :34:28.marriage, wearing the veil, some argue that is an ideological issue
:34:29. > :34:32.and some argue it is not, but do you think that there are many Muslims
:34:33. > :34:36.who believe it is part of an Islam -- part of Islam when it is not? If
:34:37. > :34:42.that is the case, there is a problem, isn't there? That is the
:34:43. > :34:45.problem we see every day because people, they do not know anything
:34:46. > :34:48.about true Islam. And if there are Muslims believe that, you can bet
:34:49. > :34:52.there will be no muscle to believe that. And Muslims come from all
:34:53. > :34:59.parts of the world. Not just India, Pakistani or Bangladesh. Muslims
:35:00. > :35:07.bring their culture. They confuse their culture with religion. It does
:35:08. > :35:11.not represent the true Islam. Who can represent the true Islam? But I
:35:12. > :35:15.have been working with women from all cultures. They are facing these
:35:16. > :35:20.problems again and again. Across the board. Also, a lot of these women
:35:21. > :35:26.come to us and they wanted to go through sharia law. A lot of the
:35:27. > :35:33.scholars said, if you have a divorce from the court, it is acceptable.
:35:34. > :35:37.That is what they said. But some of the women, this is a choice because
:35:38. > :35:44.they want to feel comfortable to go to sharia courts. Because we did not
:35:45. > :35:48.want them to face that oppression. Islam does not believe in oppression
:35:49. > :35:55.or oppressing other people. But there are cultural aspects there in.
:35:56. > :36:01.Violence is oppression. That is what I believe. I have to say, there is
:36:02. > :36:06.nuance. There is some coercion, but there is choice to it. You keep
:36:07. > :36:12.shaking your head but there is choice involved. Regarding the point
:36:13. > :36:16.about women and segregation, them being denied rights, it is not a
:36:17. > :36:19.religious only phenomena. It is something that exists in our
:36:20. > :36:24.society. Look at unequal pay for in this country. But this is the
:36:25. > :36:28.direction of travel, you understand that. I feel that it is part of
:36:29. > :36:36.white privilege. Any case... What does that mean, white privilege? If
:36:37. > :36:39.a Muslim commits a crime, it is indicative of a wider problem within
:36:40. > :36:45.their culture, their religion. But if you have someone from white,
:36:46. > :36:48.Christian background, like the University of Lancaster who said
:36:49. > :36:51.after the World Cup there was a 33% increase in domestic violence cases
:36:52. > :36:56.after people watch football matches in the UK. They are not all Muslims.
:36:57. > :36:59.But you would not say that this is an indicative of the white,
:37:00. > :37:04.Christian problem, because the criminal is separate from his
:37:05. > :37:14.ethnicity and religion. But when it comes to Muslims, they are not?
:37:15. > :37:20.Yasmin, respond. Are we partly to blame as Muslims? Eerily out of. We
:37:21. > :37:29.were salvation, back in the 70s, and then Salman Rushdie came with the
:37:30. > :37:34.Satanic verses affair. That is where Muslim identity really came to the
:37:35. > :37:37.fore. And then you had community leaders who came forward and said,
:37:38. > :37:46.this is the identity box that we will fit. Don't downplay Bosnia. You
:37:47. > :37:52.said let's just focus on Salman Rushdie. No, you
:37:53. > :38:04.said let's just focus on Salman other down. I'm telling you. Tell me
:38:05. > :38:10.about the issue that gets a lot of people really exercised, gender
:38:11. > :38:14.segregation in public places. Some people see that
:38:15. > :38:15.segregation in public places. Some get infuriated. They see it as
:38:16. > :38:24.being, if you will allow me to say, get infuriated. They see it as
:38:25. > :38:28.contrary to Western liberal society. We're sitting here, mixing
:38:29. > :38:28.contrary to Western liberal society. and it is fine. I am
:38:29. > :38:33.contrary to Western liberal society. that, I have no problem with that.
:38:34. > :38:39.What is the argument for gender segregation, because it is a lively
:38:40. > :38:46.debate. It is not a topic that should be even discussed. Not even
:38:47. > :38:48.discussed?! Muslims are being singled out for every single
:38:49. > :38:56.practice. Why is that? singled out for every single
:38:57. > :39:03.yet it is never mentioned. singled out for every single
:39:04. > :39:06.associate it with singled out for every single
:39:07. > :39:10.or anything. We discussed domestic violence on a regular basis. They
:39:11. > :39:15.or anything. We discussed domestic are in segregation, which is not
:39:16. > :39:23.true. It is white, brown, black. Some Muslims, can I finish two you
:39:24. > :39:27.should be free to wear whatever you want to wear. --
:39:28. > :39:32.should be free to wear whatever you should be free to wear whatever you
:39:33. > :39:35.want to wear. Some issues are not reported on but it is an issue.
:39:36. > :39:37.want to wear. Some issues are not made your point, but Adam Deen,
:39:38. > :39:50.there are political meetings, and people are separate, Zaha says it is
:39:51. > :39:54.not an issue and it should not be discussed... But there are women
:39:55. > :39:58.only events that women chose to organise and they wanted it to be
:39:59. > :39:59.that way. But in public spaces. Do you respect people who find it
:40:00. > :40:09.offensive? Can I just say, women in you respect people who find it
:40:10. > :40:12.organisations and they are not Muslim organisations, they came
:40:13. > :40:19.together to be together. Why? Because they felt comfortable. What
:40:20. > :40:27.is going on here with this. It is an issue that we should discuss because
:40:28. > :40:31.people find it offensive and cannot understand why it is women only this
:40:32. > :40:38.or men only this, but this is forced segregation. Is this a problem? Is
:40:39. > :40:43.at a choice? It is a choice when it takes place in a public university?
:40:44. > :40:47.No, it is not, it is a small group of people and forcing their brand on
:40:48. > :40:53.people who disagree with that. And when a public body like a university
:40:54. > :40:56.gives credence to narrow, Conservative interpretations of
:40:57. > :41:04.Islam, unchallenged, then we have a problem. But Sahar Al-Faifi is
:41:05. > :41:08.saying, that are they being forced? Are their security people saying,
:41:09. > :41:12.you sit here, you sit there? But the situations are created so that
:41:13. > :41:15.anyone who descents or publicly opposes this particular
:41:16. > :41:19.interpretation of Islam is treated as a pariah, and that has to stop.
:41:20. > :41:25.The progressive interpretation needs to be given rater space in Muslim
:41:26. > :41:32.discourse. And that is not happening at the moment. It is not a
:41:33. > :41:38.theological thing, it is a preference. But it is a little
:41:39. > :41:46.disingenuous. Excuse me, everyone! I will be with you in second. Tehmina
:41:47. > :41:49.Kazi, what would you like to say? What I want to say is that forced
:41:50. > :41:54.segregation, it is not really a big issue within the Muslim community.
:41:55. > :41:58.There are so many mixed events. Muslim women are happy to... Let me
:41:59. > :42:04.put it to you. I understand, let me put this to you. Please listen to
:42:05. > :42:09.me. Why are we demonising muscle and is? I want to ask your question! I
:42:10. > :42:17.want to ask a question. Do you have respect for people who see it and
:42:18. > :42:20.see it as inimical to our society when they see men and women in
:42:21. > :42:25.public spaces sitting apart? Do you respect to their position? What I
:42:26. > :42:29.want to say, we need a mutual understanding. I want to know, why
:42:30. > :42:33.did she come to this view. Did she really attend this event? As she
:42:34. > :42:38.interacted with these women? I wanted to know, how did you actually
:42:39. > :42:45.conclude that? A lot of women choose to wear, they choose to sit within
:42:46. > :42:53.their own group in a venue. Let her answer the question. Let her answer
:42:54. > :42:59.the question. If you were in a restaurant, sitting on a table.
:43:00. > :43:03.Letter, please, and to the question. I have had to sit at a gender
:43:04. > :43:07.segregated event at a university Islamic society where I could not
:43:08. > :43:11.even ask questions because it was deemed to be immoral. I had to ask
:43:12. > :43:20.my question on a piece of paper and give it to someone to take up to the
:43:21. > :43:23.front. Adam Deen. It is important to say that the problem does exist and
:43:24. > :43:31.it is an obsession with sex. There is a reading of Islam that is
:43:32. > :43:34.obsessed with sex and the potential situation where you may suddenly
:43:35. > :43:40.have some sexual encounter with some women. But to put it into context,
:43:41. > :43:49.this is not a widespread problem. It is a small minority of Muslims as a
:43:50. > :43:54.whole. But what I am saying is... Please, let him finish,. You really
:43:55. > :44:04.don't like me but we can talk afterwards. Audience in a minute.
:44:05. > :44:10.Adam Deen. Please, I will put the kettle on and we can have a cup of
:44:11. > :44:15.tea. It is not widespread. We had to put it into context but the point is
:44:16. > :44:18.that it is disingenuous to say that it has nothing to do with religion.
:44:19. > :44:25.There are individuals believe it is prohibitive to free mix. Good
:44:26. > :44:29.morning. It is interesting when one of the biggest phenomenon is
:44:30. > :44:36.attracting Islam today is people hijacking his land, people like
:44:37. > :44:40.Daesh, who attract people in this country, but young people do not get
:44:41. > :44:44.a say on these platforms. Maybe it is because you believe they should
:44:45. > :44:48.not have a say. One point that might make me get attacked from both
:44:49. > :44:53.sides... I will protect you. I think we have to understand that there are
:44:54. > :44:57.issues. I think we have mistake or argument. When we talk about what
:44:58. > :45:00.British Islam is, are we talking about our mosques, that they should
:45:01. > :45:06.be built in a British fashion, without minarets? Do you find that
:45:07. > :45:12.bizarre? I do, I think that will take away the alienation of Muslims.
:45:13. > :45:17.Do we have problems with women not being admitted to mosque committees,
:45:18. > :45:23.yes, we do. We have problems with young people, we have problems that
:45:24. > :45:26.nobody is denying, but to wish that away, by changing the whole of
:45:27. > :45:32.Islam, I think that is a big assumption to make. I think it is
:45:33. > :45:38.very important that we remember, as liberals, in a democracy, the
:45:39. > :45:43.difference between religion and state. In public spaces, I do not
:45:44. > :45:47.support forced segregation, but if there is a choice within religious
:45:48. > :45:51.settings, then the state should not intervene. That is different. You
:45:52. > :45:53.mentioned John Locke, and it is lovely to have a bit of
:45:54. > :45:55.enlightenment on the programme. Let's hear from the audience. The
:45:56. > :46:06.lady there, good morning. It seems like Islam does not have a
:46:07. > :46:12.hierarchical system, like a Pope that can dictate what is right or
:46:13. > :46:16.wrong, and accepted. As somebody who is a non-Muslim, how can I decide
:46:17. > :46:21.that someone who is deemed moderate and using the Koran to justify their
:46:22. > :46:30.actions is a Muslim? That is what confuses lots of non-Muslims. The
:46:31. > :46:38.gentle man in the dog collar. Excuse me. In front of you. I am certainly
:46:39. > :46:50.confused about what is a true Muslim. What denomination are you? I
:46:51. > :47:01.am ten to cost Christian. Do you welcome the Church of England
:47:02. > :47:06.bishops? Yes, I do. -- Pentecostal. I cant question would be, which is
:47:07. > :47:14.the true version of Christianity? We are not discussing that. We will
:47:15. > :47:23.come back next week. Go on. Had you finished, I do not think you had?
:47:24. > :47:28.What is a true Muslim? We are talking about British Muslims, which
:47:29. > :47:35.should be distinctively British, which must be different to the Islam
:47:36. > :47:46.of Syria, where people seem to think they have a licence to kill. Very
:47:47. > :47:50.quickly. This needs to be very clear, they think they have a
:47:51. > :48:04.licence to kill, they have a mandate to murder, it is OK, they have a
:48:05. > :48:07.mandate to murder infidels. We are talking about people who have left
:48:08. > :48:14.Islam who have been murdered, but what about the infidels? My question
:48:15. > :48:19.is, where do people like Isis get their oxygen? Do you know what, we
:48:20. > :48:24.have ten minutes left? Norway are we going to get into the complexities
:48:25. > :48:30.of that situation. Please, you have made your point, and thank you for
:48:31. > :48:34.doing so. Let me move it on. There is a lot of confusion between what
:48:35. > :48:39.is cultural and what is religious. This is the first point I wanted to
:48:40. > :48:44.make. Can we talk about radicalisation? DS, but I want to
:48:45. > :48:49.tie this to something important which was ignored, ignored in the
:48:50. > :48:53.discussion. Maybe there is an interest, perhaps for a theological
:48:54. > :49:00.revolution, which would make Islam compatible with Britain. Most of
:49:01. > :49:06.problems we have among the Muslim community, they are not theological,
:49:07. > :49:09.they are economic. It is class? 46% of Muslims live in some of the
:49:10. > :49:16.poorest and most deprived cancels in this country.
:49:17. > :49:22.APPLAUSE The fact that
:49:23. > :49:24.APPLAUSE never had the chance to work,
:49:25. > :49:30.despite the fact that the general national figure is only 4%. This is
:49:31. > :49:35.the heart of the problem. You cannot primarily focus on the theological
:49:36. > :49:41.issues, only cultural issues, when you ignore the wider context.
:49:42. > :49:46.Basically there is a massive sense of marginalisation. Does that
:49:47. > :49:47.marginalisation, that sense of isolation, does it lead to
:49:48. > :49:55.extremism? I understand. I isolation, does it lead to
:49:56. > :50:01.talk about that. There is evidence to suggest that economic deprivation
:50:02. > :50:05.is marginalisation. You cannot completely ignore it. Adam Deen.
:50:06. > :50:08.That is not true of Muslims that are born and bred in the West. They are
:50:09. > :50:20.educated. THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE
:50:21. > :50:24.Let Adam respond. There are factors such as the power vacuum that has
:50:25. > :50:29.been created, the tension between Shia Muslims and Sunni Muslims, the
:50:30. > :50:37.invasion of Iraq might, the pulling out of troops from Iraq. These are
:50:38. > :50:43.factors, but to the exception of ideology, it is just pretending.
:50:44. > :50:53.When Emperor of Isis execute someone that is deemed to be a apostate and
:50:54. > :50:57.then shouts the name of Allah. Do you know anyone who has been drawn
:50:58. > :51:04.towards radicalisation, extremism, and if so, why are? Can I make a
:51:05. > :51:09.quick point. We talk about theology and ideology, but no one has
:51:10. > :51:14.mentioned that we have over 300 scholars worldwide come to Marrakesh
:51:15. > :51:18.and have a renovation of scholarly thoughts and Marrakesh.
:51:19. > :51:22.and have a renovation of scholarly about that. We have no. On this
:51:23. > :51:26.issue, the biggest problem we have, until today, I have not met a single
:51:27. > :51:31.issue, the biggest problem we have, person, it is not a big problem, but
:51:32. > :51:35.anyone young person that goes to Syria, even if it is a 16-year-old,
:51:36. > :51:43.making massive political decisions to go there and make this drastic
:51:44. > :51:46.choice. Why are we talking about empowering young people? If Isis die
:51:47. > :51:52.there, seeing to this 16-year-old, you can fly all the way to Syria,
:51:53. > :51:58.and we are telling 16-year-olds that you're not even allowed to vote in
:51:59. > :52:03.an election. We need to include our young people in the debate. It is
:52:04. > :52:09.the lack of critical thinking, just receiving one narrative and not
:52:10. > :52:12.another. You made a valid point, we must look at the factors that lead
:52:13. > :52:19.to a person wanting to commit acts of political violence. You have
:52:20. > :52:23.social, political issues. I have real contentions with people like
:52:24. > :52:31.Adam Deen. They want to focus on the thing that it is a religious
:52:32. > :52:41.phenomenon. If you look at academic studies, I will cite a professor...
:52:42. > :52:48., on. Listen to my point. It will not affect your funding from the
:52:49. > :52:53.government. Raza is going to finish as point, then I am going to add to
:52:54. > :52:59.respond, and after that, who knows? You have a doctor from Jon Merz
:53:00. > :53:05.University in Liverpool. What does he say? They say, to see it as a
:53:06. > :53:14.religious phenomenon is empirically incorrect. There is no sound study
:53:15. > :53:18.that points to that. The only people that push this idea are the people
:53:19. > :53:23.that sit with the government in this country and say, it is nothing to do
:53:24. > :53:28.with bombing people. It is to do with the understanding of religion.
:53:29. > :53:33.Adam Deen. This is a caricature of my position and the position of the
:53:34. > :53:36.Quilliam Foundation. We understand there are many factors but you
:53:37. > :53:44.cannot deny that religion and ideology play an important part.
:53:45. > :53:48.Whilst I was listening to Raza, Naz made a comment that we are funded by
:53:49. > :53:55.right wing organisations. That is guilt by association. Let's not make
:53:56. > :53:58.it about the Quilliam Foundation. That is guilt by association.
:53:59. > :54:04.THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE . Excuse me, everyone, I want to
:54:05. > :54:09.talk about radicalisation, and the response to what Raza Nadim said,
:54:10. > :54:15.which was interesting. I want to hear more interesting stuff from
:54:16. > :54:22.Adam. I said this before, to deny that ideology plays a part is
:54:23. > :54:32.ridiculous. Let me finish. How is ideology formed? Let him finish. You
:54:33. > :54:37.have to understand the phenomenon of Isis, it is not about ridding
:54:38. > :54:44.foreign fighters from their land, it is about living in this utopian
:54:45. > :54:52.Islamic State. There are gravel Taz comes from operating in an advisor
:54:53. > :54:59.meant -- the gravitas they have comes from operating in an
:55:00. > :55:03.environment of Islamism. The Quilliam Foundation has been
:55:04. > :55:07.mentioned. I do not go five. Because you're part of it. We should be
:55:08. > :55:12.about ideas. The Quilliam Foundation is about counting -- countering
:55:13. > :55:18.radicalisation, by basing it on human rights. I do not understand
:55:19. > :55:24.the problem you have with the Quilliam Foundation. Can you discuss
:55:25. > :55:28.this later run? Yasmin, what did you want to say? I am really tired of
:55:29. > :55:32.this victim narrative. Of course there is deprivation among Muslims
:55:33. > :55:39.in this country, but we are not the only community. If you look at
:55:40. > :55:43.prison statistics, it is disproportionately African Caribbean
:55:44. > :55:46.men. Stop and searches disproportionately African Caribbean
:55:47. > :55:49.men. I am not dismissing the experiences of Muslim people but we
:55:50. > :55:54.have a political representative here. We have representation in the
:55:55. > :56:01.arts, academia, the political processes. We are not this
:56:02. > :56:02.downtrodden community. That is the reality.
:56:03. > :56:28.THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE Fazal Dad. Listen, this little
:56:29. > :56:33.triumvirate is not working for me. I want to start off by saying, I do
:56:34. > :56:44.not know why so much air time is being given to Adam. For goodness'
:56:45. > :56:56.sake. This is a democratic forum. Burnley, Leeds, Bradford.
:56:57. > :57:11.INAUDIBLE This is part of your propaganda.
:57:12. > :57:14.Here's a friend of as well. You were talking about radicalisation and
:57:15. > :57:21.extremism. That is where you stopped and I came in. I did not stop you.
:57:22. > :57:27.Sorry. It is good easier lots of different voices. Let's discuss with
:57:28. > :57:31.each other in a democratic, civilised forum. Absolutely, we
:57:32. > :57:36.should. Rather than giving more person one time than others, that
:57:37. > :57:41.was my problem. Radicalisation does happen. What is extremism? That is
:57:42. > :57:48.the next question. Where does it happen? I wish we all knew. The
:57:49. > :57:53.first thing that the government is trying to say is that it is
:57:54. > :57:57.happening because of religion, they are saying it is happening in the
:57:58. > :58:03.mosques, but categorically it is not. There is not a single case.
:58:04. > :58:07.MI5's leaked report to the Guardian, and the Royal United services report
:58:08. > :58:12.to the Guardian, it gives credence to the sense it is not happening
:58:13. > :58:18.there. It is happening in bedrooms? Exactly. On top of the list, it is
:58:19. > :58:27.social deprivation. It is family breakdown. You have got ten seconds.
:58:28. > :58:34.Then I have to say goodbye. The point I am trying to make is... Make
:58:35. > :58:37.your point quickly. Religion and religious institutions have nothing
:58:38. > :58:45.to do with it. Thank you all very much indeed. I hope you enjoyed it.
:58:46. > :58:48.The debate on Twitter and online continues. Next Sunday in
:58:49. > :59:08.Southampton, thank you very much indeed.
:59:09. > :59:12.Eight famous pensioners are looking to retire to an exotic land...
:59:13. > :59:15.I had never thought about India but...maybe.
:59:16. > :59:20...enjoying the fantastic local cultures... Ooh!