:00:00. > :00:00.Today on The Big Questions: Taking more refugees,
:00:00. > :00:09.unforgiveable sins, and shop till you drop on Sundays.
:00:10. > :00:33.Today we're live from King Edward VI School in Southampton.
:00:34. > :00:41.Welcome, everyone, to The Big Questions.
:00:42. > :00:46.On Monday a letter was sent to the Prime Minister from 126
:00:47. > :00:47.economists, who unusually for the so-called dismal science,
:00:48. > :00:54.They said: "The costs in human wellbeing of the refugee crisis
:00:55. > :00:57.are so extremely high that it is morally unacceptable
:00:58. > :01:04.for the UK not to play a fuller part in taking in refugees."
:01:05. > :01:07.20,000 resettlement places over five years is dubbed too low,
:01:08. > :01:14.And given the United Kingdom is the world's fifth largest
:01:15. > :01:18.economy, the economists say we should be doing far more.
:01:19. > :01:21.On Thursday, at the special London conference called to raise more
:01:22. > :01:23.funds to help Syrian refugees, the Prime Minister pledged another
:01:24. > :01:28.?1.2 billion over the next four years, making ?2.3 billion
:01:29. > :01:36.Those funds will be spent on helping refugees settled in camps in Turkey,
:01:37. > :01:41.But there was no promise to increase the numbers welcome to Britain
:01:42. > :01:44.beyond the current limit of 20,000 refugees over five years.
:01:45. > :01:53.Is Britain's response to the refugee crisis morally unacceptable?
:01:54. > :02:00.Let's speak to Dr Brendan Burchell. Good morning. You are responsible
:02:01. > :02:04.for the letter and it was written on Monday. Since then a lot more
:02:05. > :02:09.funding has been made available. I know you welcome that. In terms of
:02:10. > :02:14.numbers in this country, why do you believe we are falling so far short?
:02:15. > :02:17.If you look at the sheer scale of the crisis, and we emphasise this in
:02:18. > :02:21.the latter, we are talking about millions of people forced out of
:02:22. > :02:29.their homes because their homes have been bombed or they have been
:02:30. > :02:31.tortured or they are fleeing in fear for their lives. Stabilising the
:02:32. > :02:33.situation on the borders with camps there and being able to look after
:02:34. > :02:37.people at that point is important and the money will be central to
:02:38. > :02:44.that. But we cannot keep 5 million people on those borders for years to
:02:45. > :02:49.come until peace returns to Syria and the country is rebuilt for those
:02:50. > :02:54.people to return. In hellish circumstances. Hellish. A lot of
:02:55. > :02:57.them have already left the area, not because they chose rationally to
:02:58. > :03:01.leave, but because they were fleeing, trying to find safety
:03:02. > :03:06.somewhere, and they have come to Europe under atrocious conditions.
:03:07. > :03:09.Even last month another 250 were drowned in the Mediterranean. They
:03:10. > :03:20.cannot let the situation carry on where they are being forced to take
:03:21. > :03:23.further risks even after they leave Syria. 20,000 over five years is
:03:24. > :03:26.something like 12 per day. Could we take ten times that number over five
:03:27. > :03:29.years? If these people are shared across Europe, and many countries in
:03:30. > :03:33.Europe have shown willingness to take a fair share, then we are
:03:34. > :03:39.talking about much higher numbers. 12 date we are not going to with
:03:40. > :03:48.millions of people in that way. -- 12 per day. There isn't a problem
:03:49. > :03:51.with taking more numbers. Hundreds of thousands perhaps? It is
:03:52. > :03:55.difficult to put a number on it and I would not want to. Europe is a big
:03:56. > :04:00.place with 500 million people in Europe so 1 million in that if they
:04:01. > :04:05.drop in the ocean. Peter Hitchens, we have the space and we need to do
:04:06. > :04:09.more for these refugees. I wonder if he is willing to take four people
:04:10. > :04:11.into his own home and if not, just urging other people to do it seems
:04:12. > :04:28.empty to me. He keeps saying cannot and must not,
:04:29. > :04:30.as if the argument had already been had. A lot of us have the impression
:04:31. > :04:33.this country is already full, especially if you live in poorer
:04:34. > :04:35.areas and you have to cope with medical services, housing shortages,
:04:36. > :04:37.school shortages. We would not necessarily benefit the less well
:04:38. > :04:39.off having more people living here, whoever they are. And what is the
:04:40. > :04:42.logical connection between saying that people need refuge from a war
:04:43. > :04:47.in Syria and saying they should come to live here? There is not one.
:04:48. > :04:50.There are many other solutions to their problems. The most important
:04:51. > :04:54.solution is to stop lamenting the war in Syria that we along with the
:04:55. > :04:59.United States, Saudi Arabia and France did so much to create. And
:05:00. > :05:02.also start putting pressure on the people that we packed in Syria
:05:03. > :05:07.initially to stop refusing to accept the continued rule of President
:05:08. > :05:11.Assad and come to a negotiated settlement that will allow these
:05:12. > :05:16.people to go home and rebuild Syria and stop being refugees in the first
:05:17. > :05:20.place. That is our priority. Arguing that other people should put up with
:05:21. > :05:25.taking in large numbers of people does not seem to be a particularly
:05:26. > :05:33.moral position. You may be right in her long-term. We need to talk about
:05:34. > :05:37.the refugees now. I was in those refugee camps 80 years ago because
:05:38. > :05:42.my mother was a child refugee coming in from Nazi Germany, not Syria.
:05:43. > :05:47.What was different then was that Britain opened their heart to
:05:48. > :05:51.refugees and it was 10,000 children and Britain was about to go to war.
:05:52. > :05:54.Our economy was much worse and yet we did it and it worked and it is
:05:55. > :06:03.something we should do not every day but once in a generation. We can
:06:04. > :06:06.afford it? We can. The comparison is entirely false. Those people were
:06:07. > :06:11.fleeing mass extermination and that is not the case in Syria. We cannot
:06:12. > :06:20.always use the Nazis as a way of trumping the Russian argument. You
:06:21. > :06:25.are right in saying all the situations are different, but I
:06:26. > :06:32.think the Second World War is a good example, and there are other
:06:33. > :06:36.examples, there was concern taking in large numbers, much larger than
:06:37. > :06:41.we are talking about now, but we did it and we were not as rich then as
:06:42. > :06:44.we are now, and we did a very good job of it. Those people have
:06:45. > :06:50.contributed enormously to the economy of the UK. So there could be
:06:51. > :06:54.an economic benefit mid-term and long-term to take a large number of
:06:55. > :06:59.people in? We have a slightly different answer to that. There are
:07:00. > :07:02.clearly some costs involved. Taking the bigger picture, the costs are
:07:03. > :07:07.relatively small compared to the benefits. And certainly in
:07:08. > :07:11.situations in the past, we have actually benefited hugely. One of
:07:12. > :07:14.the reasons why the Chancellor of the Exchequer was able to be more
:07:15. > :07:17.generous in the budget we had last year was because we have had a
:07:18. > :07:22.windfall coming from migrants who come to this country. There are
:07:23. > :07:25.costs. We need to plan for that but we are good, a rich country, and
:07:26. > :07:31.very good at planning for these things. Are their cultural
:07:32. > :07:35.challenges? Are there challenges for Christianity in this? Of course
:07:36. > :07:40.there are many Christians among the refugees but we have got to beat
:07:41. > :07:44.clear-headed about this. It is not just economic migration and we
:07:45. > :07:46.cannot just talk about economic benefits and losses. We need to look
:07:47. > :07:52.at a number of things that one is compassion. Whoever comes to Europe
:07:53. > :07:57.must be met and has been met I think, largely, in many countries,
:07:58. > :08:00.by compassion. Much of the work that is being done is being done by
:08:01. > :08:07.churches and other religious groups, and that is great. But the questions
:08:08. > :08:11.about policy are different. Every nation has got to consider the
:08:12. > :08:22.security implications for example. What are they? We now know that Isis
:08:23. > :08:33.and argued at using this route to infiltrate. -- and Al-Qaeda. Not all
:08:34. > :08:36.refugees are like this of course. If we don't sort the situation out and
:08:37. > :08:41.help these people, we give space to these people. Of course but Europe
:08:42. > :08:45.must play its part in what is happening, but not only Europe.
:08:46. > :08:49.There are other countries. I have just got back from the USA and there
:08:50. > :08:53.is a big debate about the numbers there, quite rightly. Canada,
:08:54. > :08:57.Australia, South Africa and so on. The main question that is not being
:08:58. > :09:05.asked is what is the Arab League doing about this? Kuwait was told to
:09:06. > :09:12.take refugees, and they said we are not taking any because they are not
:09:13. > :09:17.like us. The organisation of Islamic cooperation, what are they doing
:09:18. > :09:20.about it? I was in Bosnia during the civil war there, and many countries,
:09:21. > :09:25.Islamic as well as others, took people from Bosnia. So this has got
:09:26. > :09:31.to be a global solution to a problem. But of course, also
:09:32. > :09:36.addressing the conflict in Syria, a country that has deliberately been
:09:37. > :09:43.destabilised and ruin. There was a consensus in Syria, a very diverse
:09:44. > :09:47.country, where there was some personal freedom and some religious
:09:48. > :09:52.freedom in exchange for restrictions on political freedom. Let me focus
:09:53. > :09:54.you on the debate in hand. Of course that is a very important
:09:55. > :10:00.conversation and significant debate that will go on for many a long
:10:01. > :10:04.year. Theo Hobson, let me come back to the challenge to this country.
:10:05. > :10:07.The cultural challenge and also religious challenge which some
:10:08. > :10:11.people are talking about. You said earlier when we were having a cup of
:10:12. > :10:17.coffee that we don't want another situation like Cologne. What did you
:10:18. > :10:24.mean? I think there is a factor of people being nervous of immigration.
:10:25. > :10:28.We have a huge level of economic migration to this country at the
:10:29. > :10:34.moment and if it were not for that, I think we could stake in more
:10:35. > :10:38.Syrian refugees. But because we already have so much economic
:10:39. > :10:43.migration, people naturally feel, well, maybe that is enough, and we
:10:44. > :10:47.are wary of the distinction. We do not really believe in the
:10:48. > :10:49.distinction between economic migration and asylum seekers,
:10:50. > :10:52.refugees. It is true that distinction is incredibly blurred
:10:53. > :10:56.these days. People fleeing could stop long before they get to Britain
:10:57. > :11:03.because they are free of the Syrian war. Articulate what you mean by the
:11:04. > :11:08.cultural challenges. Diane Makro the cultural challenges likely that they
:11:09. > :11:11.are Muslim is coming from Syria and people feel that we have a lot of
:11:12. > :11:17.Muslim is already and that could cause trouble. We are unable to
:11:18. > :11:22.assimilate the numbers we do have at the moment. Pushing much further,
:11:23. > :11:28.people are wary of that. What do you think of that view? The human cost
:11:29. > :11:32.of this crisis, probably one of the biggest crises the world has seen
:11:33. > :11:39.since World War II is what makes it without any doubt an exceptional for
:11:40. > :11:43.the international community, Europe and specifically the UK not to take
:11:44. > :11:46.the bigger role in addressing, managing and even stopping the war.
:11:47. > :11:49.So of course from a political perspective of course the war has
:11:50. > :11:54.got to be ended and there should be political pressure on the Syrian
:11:55. > :12:01.Government. What is the morality behind letting hundreds of thousands
:12:02. > :12:05.of people freeze in the Mediterranean sea because we cannot
:12:06. > :12:10.accept them because we are afraid of the religion? Do you think people
:12:11. > :12:17.are afraid? They are because there is a culture and language of racism
:12:18. > :12:22.and xenophobia. They are giving those refugees a picture, an image,
:12:23. > :12:26.like they are coming from a specific religion, that they are terrorists
:12:27. > :12:29.basically, that is not the truth. They're not dying in the
:12:30. > :12:37.Mediterranean sea because we are rejecting them. That is not the
:12:38. > :12:40.fact. It is true. People leave Syria and arrive in Turkey and then they
:12:41. > :12:45.cease to be refugees because they have left Syria and they are now
:12:46. > :12:49.safe. Wait a minute. This is an important point. If you are going to
:12:50. > :12:53.say that people are dying in the sea because we are not taking them in, I
:12:54. > :12:58.have to challenge it because it is simply not true. It is a slur in
:12:59. > :13:01.this country and it is a highly misleading statement to make. It
:13:02. > :13:04.emotional lives is what should be a reasoned debate by claiming
:13:05. > :13:09.something that is flatly untrue. These people do not need to drown in
:13:10. > :13:15.the sea. People are dying because there is a war in Syria. I want to
:13:16. > :13:22.hear from the audience. Would you take in a refugee and... Go on.
:13:23. > :13:32.People are dying because there is a war in Syria. I just want to make
:13:33. > :13:34.one more point. People risk... Tens, hundreds of people are sitting in
:13:35. > :13:39.one dinghy that should take 20 people and taking the risk, the
:13:40. > :13:44.journey from Turkey to Greece. We hear horrible stories. 10,000
:13:45. > :13:47.children have now disappeared. But they are coming from Turkey. They
:13:48. > :13:52.have already reached safety before they get into the dinghy. We must
:13:53. > :13:59.hear from the audience and Richard and Francis. Anyone in the audience?
:14:00. > :14:05.The lady there? A very good Sunday morning to you. Should we be taking
:14:06. > :14:11.more refugees from the camps? I was going to say shouldn't we focus on
:14:12. > :14:18.the past and whether there is an exodus and in the Bible who looked
:14:19. > :14:24.after those people? The numbers are not clear. Why can't we think that
:14:25. > :14:31.way? OK, think in biblical terms. The gentleman on the other side.
:14:32. > :14:35.Hello. The intermediate position is what you are talking about but the
:14:36. > :14:40.immediate situation is a humanitarian crisis. Just at that
:14:41. > :14:43.level alone to be able to change the shape of the conversation,
:14:44. > :14:45.particularly those that have influence and power, to speak
:14:46. > :14:50.differently about the immediate need, which is humanitarian, and to
:14:51. > :14:56.show compassion as the Bishop said. It is an opportunity for the nation
:14:57. > :15:00.to show compassion. Michael. Hello. That is you, isn't it? I know that
:15:01. > :15:05.because you are speaking later about something else. Letters bring it
:15:06. > :15:11.home. I am always passionate about the refugees but who is willing to
:15:12. > :15:17.take somebody into their own home and help them. Put your hand up if
:15:18. > :15:22.you are. If we all care so much... You would be willing to take
:15:23. > :15:29.refugees into your home? If I had a spare room and the means to support
:15:30. > :15:39.them, absolutely. And who would not? Richard, you wouldn't? Why not?
:15:40. > :15:47.Let's hear from Richards. The trouble with this debate is that it
:15:48. > :15:51.assumes that we should, that it is morally raked to turn a refugee into
:15:52. > :16:00.a migrant and to treat that person with the same status, people who
:16:01. > :16:05.could not go home. Reasonably we are saying that most of these people,
:16:06. > :16:12.millions of suffering Syrians that they will end up, with luck, going
:16:13. > :16:16.home. In the meantime, in what sense is it morally sensible, the kind
:16:17. > :16:24.thing to do, to assume that what they need is resettlement. There is
:16:25. > :16:28.now home to go to. Not now, but the larger the problem, the bigger US
:16:29. > :16:34.and the numbers are, the less likely it is that they will be resettled
:16:35. > :16:39.elsewhere. The right thing to do is to say this is not going to be a
:16:40. > :16:46.happy business but in situ, or as near as possible, they will be
:16:47. > :16:54.there, live, we hope, educated, civilised lives. On the assumption
:16:55. > :17:01.they will soon, let's hope sooner rather than later, be back, very
:17:02. > :17:04.busy rebuilding their country. When the government fails to do so we are
:17:05. > :17:17.seeing a lot of people, European residents taking action. I can Rick
:17:18. > :17:24.Fehr to many examples. -- I can revert to many examples. Today it's
:17:25. > :17:28.a political crisis in Syria, tomorrow it is an environmental
:17:29. > :17:34.crisis in Europe. Would you want a host country to welcome you? I think
:17:35. > :17:38.global warming is a good example, it is entirely impossible but we will
:17:39. > :17:41.soon see climatic pressures over the world but I don't think the answer
:17:42. > :17:47.is likely to be that those millions of people can come north, the
:17:48. > :17:51.solution will have to be sorting it out in situ. Is that practical to
:17:52. > :17:59.use this money, a considerable amount of money from the government,
:18:00. > :18:04.people at aid agencies are hugely encouraged by the amount of money
:18:05. > :18:11.but is it practical to work on creating a civilised life for those
:18:12. > :18:15.people, education, jobs, in situ? Possibly, but I am sceptical. But if
:18:16. > :18:20.it does happen it will take years to build up. We have people who are
:18:21. > :18:26.fleeing now, even over the weekend. People are being bombed in Aleppo.
:18:27. > :18:31.The fact of the situation on the Turkish border is we cannot
:18:32. > :18:35.guarantee people's safety and the opportunity to recover from their
:18:36. > :18:40.wounds and trauma in that situation. Yes, let's use that money to change
:18:41. > :18:44.the situation. But there seems to be no alternative as the Bishop says
:18:45. > :18:50.but for us to treat this as a global problem. I very unusual and unique,
:18:51. > :18:53.fortunately these things only happen very occasionally, but we must act
:18:54. > :18:59.now if we are not going to allow millions of people, millions of
:19:00. > :19:03.people who have lost their homes, those people need to be looked
:19:04. > :19:05.after. Why is it assumed that there is only one form of compassion,
:19:06. > :19:11.namely the is only one form of compassion,
:19:12. > :19:14.compassion is to allow them to live in Britain? There are many other
:19:15. > :19:17.compassion is to allow them to live forms of compassion, helping them
:19:18. > :19:21.where they are, helping them get home, making sure that where they
:19:22. > :19:24.are the live as home, making sure that where they
:19:25. > :19:28.and much more practical and make much more sense.
:19:29. > :19:32.and much more practical and make to seize this opportunity to argue
:19:33. > :19:38.for the opening of the National borders? That is exactly what you
:19:39. > :19:45.are arguing for. There is no logical connection between the two. Don't
:19:46. > :19:53.claim a monopoly of compassion for your political situation. We are not
:19:54. > :19:57.claiming we should open the borders, we are claiming we can manage the
:19:58. > :20:00.situation very well, we are good at controlling the borders, we have
:20:01. > :20:06.good ways of determining who is a genuine refugee and two is an
:20:07. > :20:08.economic migrant. We have a lot of compassion in the country, many
:20:09. > :20:11.people in the communities out there showing a lot of willing and
:20:12. > :20:23.capability to help these people resettle. Do you have any idea of
:20:24. > :20:26.the proportion of genuine refugees and migrants? You say it is easy to
:20:27. > :20:31.distinguish but others would say it is not. It is not easy but we have
:20:32. > :20:35.the apparat is to distinguish. What we do know is that people coming
:20:36. > :20:40.from different parts of the world, when we do these tests, have
:20:41. > :20:43.different portions of people we deem to be genuine refugees and from
:20:44. > :20:49.Syria almost all of them passed that test. But not all the people coming
:20:50. > :20:55.are bronze Syria, less than 40% are, they are from the rest of the region
:20:56. > :21:00.and beyond. But the real point is most of the refugees from Syria are
:21:01. > :21:04.in the region, millions of them. The people who are moving are actually
:21:05. > :21:09.quite a small number and they tend to be the better off, those who can
:21:10. > :21:13.pay the traffickers to move them in these boats that they are talking
:21:14. > :21:17.about, they are not just taking these boats themselves. I think the
:21:18. > :21:22.British government policy to concentrate on the welfare of the
:21:23. > :21:29.people in the camps, in Jordan, in Turkey and Lebanon is the right one.
:21:30. > :21:35.That is will help is needed. May I just finish, may I just finish.
:21:36. > :21:39.Those people who are living in those camps in those countries could be
:21:40. > :21:42.helped by some steps which do not require money. Taken in those
:21:43. > :21:50.countries. For instance, Jordan could allow people to work legally.
:21:51. > :21:53.That would help. Micro-enterprise could be started in the camps so
:21:54. > :22:00.that women and men have jobs they can do and earn money. Where is the
:22:01. > :22:04.market for the micro-enterprise? There is an internal market in the
:22:05. > :22:09.camps, these are huge, I have been to them, has anyone else been to
:22:10. > :22:12.these camps? These are huge places with activity, already some economic
:22:13. > :22:17.activity and that should be encouraged. Jonathan knew are a
:22:18. > :22:20.great supporter, you have been on the programme in the past with your
:22:21. > :22:25.passionate and eloquent support of the state school system in this
:22:26. > :22:29.country. People are concerned the state school system in some parts of
:22:30. > :22:32.the country could not cope with 100,000 people over five years,
:22:33. > :22:37.maybe 200,000 people over five years. Are those fears are
:22:38. > :22:50.misplaced? It is argued this will fall on the head is of the poor
:22:51. > :22:55.people in society. Is there a problem? It is a genuine problem for
:22:56. > :23:01.the government, they do want to help but are afraid of being accused of
:23:02. > :23:05.encouraging immigration. Do we have the infrastructure in the welfare
:23:06. > :23:09.system to cope? Let the people decide. There are those who would
:23:10. > :23:12.like to foster or adopt children, why don't they let that happen and
:23:13. > :23:18.the government can act as a vetting centre to make sure the children are
:23:19. > :23:22.safe. Let people open their homes. Can the welfare system cope? It
:23:23. > :23:27.would surely need much more investment, can the schools cope?
:23:28. > :23:30.Yes, they can, with goodwill, common sense and compassion of course we
:23:31. > :23:36.can cope. We are so much richer than other parts of the world. You will
:23:37. > :23:42.get a chance later, Kevin, don't worry about it. Quick question is
:23:43. > :23:48.this moral or is it not? What the government has done is a good start
:23:49. > :23:53.but the reality is that it is not just about Syria, it is what is
:23:54. > :24:02.happening in Iraq, is that Genesis? If it is then we take them in
:24:03. > :24:07.because it is like what happened... Is it general side? I think the
:24:08. > :24:16.particular targeting of a community, the kidnapping of women, persecuting
:24:17. > :24:21.committees, it looks like genocide. We have form, we did it with the
:24:22. > :24:25.Vietnamese, we did it with the Bosnians, we have form of doing this
:24:26. > :24:29.and if the poor will be put upon in other parts of the country lets make
:24:30. > :24:33.the south the dispersal area and not one bit on the north and Cardiff. We
:24:34. > :24:35.have to leave it there, thank you for your contributions.
:24:36. > :24:37.If you have something to say about that debate,
:24:38. > :24:39.log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions, where you'll find links to join
:24:40. > :24:47.We're also debating live this morning from Southampton
:24:48. > :24:56.So get tweeting or emailing on those topics now or send us any other
:24:57. > :25:03.ideas or thoughts you may have about the show.
:25:04. > :25:06.It's Pancake Day on Tuesday, or Shrove Tuesday, to give
:25:07. > :25:10.And properly it's not about scoffing pancakes
:25:11. > :25:15.sins, confessing your misdeeds and doing penance for them
:25:16. > :25:21.But can confession, however contrite, really wipe
:25:22. > :25:35.Kevin, I promised I would come to you and here we are, you are a
:25:36. > :25:43.lapsed Catholic. CHUCKLES At the moment. There is still time
:25:44. > :25:49.for your salvation. Psychotherapist as well. You see a lot of troubled
:25:50. > :25:53.people. Do you think, sins is a word you would not necessarily embrace, I
:25:54. > :25:59.know that, but are some sins unforgivable? I agree completely
:26:00. > :26:04.that if you look at forgiveness in this context you have good thing sin
:26:05. > :26:08.and forgiveness and then you get wrapped up in religion which came
:26:09. > :26:12.along and codified social constructs of behaviour and called them sins. I
:26:13. > :26:18.think forgiveness is about something far bigger than that. I think some
:26:19. > :26:23.sins, for want of a better word, sometimes question is, are
:26:24. > :26:28.unforgivable. Such as? I don't think you can do a shopping list, religion
:26:29. > :26:36.gives you a shopping list and is more a social response. But let's
:26:37. > :26:41.select one, sexual abuse for one. Victims of sexual abuse are often
:26:42. > :26:45.told come to therapy, come and see someone like me, have some therapy
:26:46. > :26:49.and use that therapy to get to the point where you can forgive the
:26:50. > :26:54.perpetrator, you can forgive the abuser. Without that you cannot
:26:55. > :26:59.really move on with your life, to have a fulfilled life you have two
:27:00. > :27:04.forgive you abuser. I actually think that the best use of therapy is to
:27:05. > :27:08.understand you cannot and the outcome of therapy is to give up the
:27:09. > :27:13.search for forgiveness and say that this happened to me, I am likely
:27:14. > :27:17.angry about it and will remain to some extent rightfully angry but I
:27:18. > :27:22.am going to live my life with that experience in my life and deliver a
:27:23. > :27:26.fulfilled life. To do that I don't need to forgive the perpetrator. I
:27:27. > :27:29.think there are other examples of things people do which our
:27:30. > :27:34.transgressions on society, transgressions of the social group,
:27:35. > :27:39.that cannot be forgiven because the individual does not show inside or
:27:40. > :27:42.an understanding of what happened, does not show any personal
:27:43. > :27:47.transformation, does not own what they have done. What does that mean?
:27:48. > :27:52.I think to all what you have done is to have a genuine understanding of
:27:53. > :27:56.what you have done, why it transgressed, why it was a problem,
:27:57. > :28:04.why it was an insult to society and broke social rules. Blasphemy is
:28:05. > :28:13.seen as a very big crime. Blasphemy is interesting... Some would say it
:28:14. > :28:19.is victim was crying. It is interesting, in the concept of sins,
:28:20. > :28:25.if you go to a biblical definition, the one sin which cannot be forgiven
:28:26. > :28:32.is the sin of blasphemy. All others can be forgiven by God but he will
:28:33. > :28:40.not forgive the sin of blasphemy. As an atheist... I don't know where
:28:41. > :28:50.your information is coming from. He is a lapsed Catholic! You said it
:28:51. > :28:55.was Shrove Tuesday but it is Ash Wednesday which is the beginning of
:28:56. > :29:00.Lent and that is when we seek forgiveness. Religion did not come
:29:01. > :29:04.along, psychotherapy came along, religion was there from the
:29:05. > :29:11.beginning! Psychotherapy is only about 100 years old. But the thing
:29:12. > :29:17.about, I think what has been said, which is absolutely correct, the
:29:18. > :29:23.words to use our remorse, repentance and a willingness to make
:29:24. > :29:26.restitution. If that is not there the sin is unforgivable because we
:29:27. > :29:30.don't want to be forgiven. Again and again we are told in the court that
:29:31. > :29:35.he showed no remorse at all for his crimes. That might be because of
:29:36. > :29:38.your life and the way you have been treated and what has happened in
:29:39. > :29:44.your environment, you might have been brutalised. That maybe so but
:29:45. > :29:49.nevertheless I think it is possible, this is the Christian gospel, it is
:29:50. > :29:58.possible for everyone to show mask, to repent like prodigal son and make
:29:59. > :30:02.restitution for what they have done. I think forgiven people who have
:30:03. > :30:09.sinned against us is important because if we don't then we have
:30:10. > :30:13.lessened ourselves. May I just finished? That is not the same as
:30:14. > :30:17.what the state does with wrongdoing. That is a different matter, the
:30:18. > :30:24.state has two act against the kind of social wrong which has been done.
:30:25. > :30:32.Sorry I called you Michael earlier. Mark, your son was killed. You have
:30:33. > :30:39.forgiven, haven't you? How did you manage to do that? I think the
:30:40. > :30:47.famous words of Max wrap it up pretty well. Forgiveness is like
:30:48. > :30:50.unlocking the door to a prisoner and realising that you have freed
:30:51. > :30:57.yourself. APPLAUSE
:30:58. > :31:04.I came to a point in the process, because I am not going to pretend it
:31:05. > :31:08.happened easily, because it didn't. It was a huge struggle. I wanted to
:31:09. > :31:14.kill the guy that took my son's life. It tore my heart apart, it
:31:15. > :31:18.tore my family apart, but because of my relationship with God, there was
:31:19. > :31:22.something in me that was just urging me to recognise that I don't have
:31:23. > :31:28.the power to take someone else's life. Things in life happen. I
:31:29. > :31:33.wanted to know from God what was the next stage for me to deal with this.
:31:34. > :31:37.What was my role in the whole of this and through that whole journey,
:31:38. > :31:43.I recognised there was something for me to do, and it was to give back
:31:44. > :31:50.love. I ended up turning around a lot of young people's lives by
:31:51. > :31:58.setting up the Prince foundation. The guy who killed Kiyan, does he
:31:59. > :32:03.have a chance of redemption? In your terms, is he destined for torment?
:32:04. > :32:07.The God and creator that I serve, I totally recognise he gives everyone
:32:08. > :32:10.the chance of turning their life around and getting forgiveness if
:32:11. > :32:17.their heart is willing and they are serious about to change. If you take
:32:18. > :32:23.God out of the equation, it seems to me then the only person that can do
:32:24. > :32:27.the forgiving is the victim. Oddly, I cannot think of a crime situation
:32:28. > :32:39.or seeing which wouldn't be capable of being forgiven the victim. It
:32:40. > :32:44.would not matter if the offender was nasty, unreconciled, not owning
:32:45. > :32:50.their crime. Can you imagine forgiving somebody if you were
:32:51. > :32:57.serially abused by a priest? Can you imagine forgiving that? I know it
:32:58. > :33:01.happens, so yes, one can imagine it. The point about the person who gains
:33:02. > :33:06.most from the act of forgiveness if the person doing the forgiving. That
:33:07. > :33:10.is probably well made. You don't have an obligation to forgive, I
:33:11. > :33:16.agree. That is kind of the victim's business. But there is nothing so
:33:17. > :33:23.enormous, no enormity so horrid, that I cannot imagine the victim of
:33:24. > :33:30.it saying I actually understand this thing or I am capable of
:33:31. > :33:34.understanding. Inherent in this discussion is whether forgiveness is
:33:35. > :33:38.a transitive thing or not. If it is something that passes from me to
:33:39. > :33:42.you, I forgive you, I do this to you, I will give you, so you are the
:33:43. > :33:46.recipient of my forgiveness, and I don't actually buy into that very
:33:47. > :33:52.much because I do believe the concept that a person can forgive
:33:53. > :33:55.within themselves... The initial question was whether all sins are
:33:56. > :34:02.forgiveable and that is a theological question. Not at all.
:34:03. > :34:07.Well, we are talking about it in relation to Ash Wednesday and so on.
:34:08. > :34:10.In the Christian understanding, we are all sinners equally, so making
:34:11. > :34:16.predations of this sin is unforgivable is an honorary macro
:34:17. > :34:20.Christian thing to do. It makes worldly sense on a human level, but
:34:21. > :34:30.the point of Christianity is that we are all in the same boat, even
:34:31. > :34:32.bishops. But stealing doughnuts is not the same as perpetrating
:34:33. > :34:45.genocide but you are saying we are all sinners? Of course they are
:34:46. > :34:48.crimes that we might think our... Judaism believes in forgiveness
:34:49. > :34:53.being a good thing but it is very different from being obligatory. It
:34:54. > :34:59.helps the victim move on, but also it helps the perpetrator have a
:35:00. > :35:02.sense of a fresh start. I would not want to force people into a
:35:03. > :35:06.religious straitjacket where they feel they are obliged to forgive
:35:07. > :35:09.against their will. You cannot control feelings and there are
:35:10. > :35:14.situations where I think people would be right not to forgive if
:35:15. > :35:20.they genuinely felt their lives had been so warped. Like a child abuse
:35:21. > :35:23.case. If you feel your self-loathing is permanent and your relationships
:35:24. > :35:27.with other people were permanent, you may not forgive your
:35:28. > :35:31.perpetrator. Or you can do it conditionally. How do I know you
:35:32. > :35:35.will not do it again? If you spend the rest of your life well and do
:35:36. > :35:41.not do it again, then by the end of your life I will have given you
:35:42. > :35:45.forgiveness. Can we make a plea against soppy forgiveness? It is
:35:46. > :35:52.very common in our society. I forgave such and such, people always
:35:53. > :35:55.say that. People forget things that have not been done to them and I
:35:56. > :35:58.don't think you can do that. This is very difficult in the case of murder
:35:59. > :36:02.because the person that has been murdered cannot forgive and we
:36:03. > :36:07.cannot forgive on their behalf and that is a real difficulty. God, in
:36:08. > :36:10.my view, can forgive anything, but he can only forgive the truly
:36:11. > :36:14.penitent and only God can judge whether they are penitent and that
:36:15. > :36:19.is not easy. There are things I have done to people and they would be
:36:20. > :36:22.very justifiable in not for giving me for it, and I would not be
:36:23. > :36:27.surprised if they did not forgive me. On the other hand, we are
:36:28. > :36:31.instructed, if we are Christians, that we should forgive those that
:36:32. > :36:35.are penitent. That is the difficulty. It is a very difficult
:36:36. > :36:38.thing to do and it should not be devalued, soppy currency, where we
:36:39. > :36:42.say I forgive you without meaning it. And nor should people pretend to
:36:43. > :36:47.be penitent when they are not but they do all the time. You have been
:36:48. > :36:55.determined critic of Tony Blair, for example. Yes. That was not
:36:56. > :36:59.difficult! Do you think, as some would argue, as his life moves on,
:37:00. > :37:04.unless he focuses on some of the aspects of what he has done, some
:37:05. > :37:09.people say, that it will become more and more difficult to be forgiven?
:37:10. > :37:13.It will, but I genuinely hope that he does reach the conclusion where
:37:14. > :37:17.he understands what he has done and becomes truly penitent. It would be
:37:18. > :37:28.a great moment in our national life if you would at some stage say so,
:37:29. > :37:31.not just for him but for huge numbers of people that were hurt by
:37:32. > :37:33.what he did. It would be so good and it illustrates in itself the power
:37:34. > :37:36.of the commandment to forgive. Peter says one thing that I think is a bit
:37:37. > :37:42.peculiar. That God can only forgive the people that are penitent. I am
:37:43. > :37:46.all for penitence, good idea, but I think Peter overreaches himself
:37:47. > :37:55.there. God may have a soft spot for the unrepentant. The bigger these
:37:56. > :37:59.crimes get that we are discussing, the more likely it is that you see
:38:00. > :38:05.illness, sickness, disease, mental disease at the heart of them. For
:38:06. > :38:16.that reason, I suspect that the higher up the Saint grade you get,
:38:17. > :38:26.-- sin grade, maybe there is a core... You are saying there is no
:38:27. > :38:30.sin grade? We are discussing forgiveness, not what it does for
:38:31. > :38:34.you. It is not about freeing the other person, which many people have
:38:35. > :38:38.that mindset, because it is about freeing yourself. The work I do now,
:38:39. > :38:43.I could not do if I had not gone through that process of forgiving.
:38:44. > :38:51.Many young people who use knives and violent on the streets, you have
:38:52. > :38:55.two... Just that point about you not being able to, you have to get that
:38:56. > :39:00.strength from a higher power than yourself, because that is how I was
:39:01. > :39:08.able to do it. I did not have my own strength and so I asked God for
:39:09. > :39:19.help. Francis? As a Catholic, not lapsed, yet! Honesty is something we
:39:20. > :39:24.have discussed on many occasions and so is the keenest enormity of the
:39:25. > :39:30.abuse of children by priests across the world. Therefore they meet their
:39:31. > :39:37.maker, I am sure you would agree that they need to talk to their God.
:39:38. > :39:41.-- before they meet their maker. What about the people who confessed
:39:42. > :39:48.in the confessions box and the other priests who did not tell the police?
:39:49. > :39:52.Do they need forgiveness? If they took confession within the
:39:53. > :39:56.confessional, then it is the same as if someone confesses to murder while
:39:57. > :40:04.in the neck, then I would expect the confessor to keep that confidential.
:40:05. > :40:09.The system was worse than that. Kids would go to bishops outside the
:40:10. > :40:16.confessional. Be talking about the confessional, surely there is a
:40:17. > :40:21.moral obligation that overrides the doctrinally rules of the confession,
:40:22. > :40:27.moral imperative to go to the police. You say not? That is not
:40:28. > :40:31.what a priest does. If somebody confesses to what is a crime and not
:40:32. > :40:38.just a sin, they refuse absolution until the person has gone to the
:40:39. > :40:45.police. That is not good enough. Why? You are in the wrong here. I am
:40:46. > :40:50.not voicing opinion, I am stating fact that is what happens. If you
:40:51. > :40:59.confess to a crime in a confessional, it should be no
:41:00. > :41:05.different to confessing in a court. I seem to have something that is a
:41:06. > :41:09.matter of contention. Why is it a matter of contention, somebody tells
:41:10. > :41:13.somebody something and they can stop them being abused and they don't go
:41:14. > :41:17.to the police, so why is that a matter of contention? Put it like
:41:18. > :41:21.that, there could be many circumstances where that is the
:41:22. > :41:28.case. I think the tradition is to hold in place the confidentiality.
:41:29. > :41:32.When somebody confesses a crime to me, I have got to go to the police
:41:33. > :41:36.or they can and I give them the choice. I am not there to let
:41:37. > :41:46.somebody go just because they confide in me. The priest may not
:41:47. > :41:52.have the skills to make... To pick up the phone and call the police? If
:41:53. > :41:56.the person sitting behind the confessional has psychosis then they
:41:57. > :42:02.do not know who it is. They can encourage them to get help. What is
:42:03. > :42:09.happening in confession is I can invoke this higher being, this God.
:42:10. > :42:12.As a confessor, I am here to bring down God's forgiveness on you. They
:42:13. > :42:19.assume this bizarre thing, that I can bring God's forgiveness on you.
:42:20. > :42:23.The reality is that forgiveness, repentance, remorse and everything
:42:24. > :42:27.else is not about and outside being. You can have all of that without a
:42:28. > :42:31.god figure, you can have that within yourself. People invoke God because
:42:32. > :42:36.it makes it easier to deal with those things rather than dealing
:42:37. > :42:48.with what is within themselves. Thank you. No, I am sorry. Sorry? I
:42:49. > :42:51.invoke psychotherapists. Bishop Michael is invoking
:42:52. > :42:55.You can join in all this morning's debates by logging
:42:56. > :42:57.on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions then following the link
:42:58. > :43:02.Tell us what you think about our last big question too.
:43:03. > :43:06.And if you'd like to be in the audience at a future
:43:07. > :43:09.We're in Leicester next week, Cambridge on February 21st
:43:10. > :43:20.Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath
:43:21. > :43:29.Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death.
:43:30. > :43:34.So is the Business Secretary Sajid Javid risking more than
:43:35. > :43:37.parliamentary defeat as he attempts to change the law to allow shops
:43:38. > :43:39.of all sizes to open all day on Sundays?
:43:40. > :43:42.Or with online shopping available 24/7, do high streets and shopping
:43:43. > :43:44.centres now need to be open for full trading every day?
:43:45. > :43:59.Peter Hitchens, what is so special about Sunday religiously? You need a
:44:00. > :44:02.day when you are free from work. Families especially, private life
:44:03. > :44:06.needs this. If it is not the same day, then it is no use because half
:44:07. > :44:12.the family will not be there and half will. It is essential for a
:44:13. > :44:17.certain way of life that is rapidly disappearing that we have it. Oddly
:44:18. > :44:22.enough, even Stalin was not able to stamp it out. He tried very hard. It
:44:23. > :44:25.was left to Margaret Thatcher and her successors to stamp it out in
:44:26. > :44:27.this country and it is quite extraordinary that there has been
:44:28. > :44:33.not much of a fight but up against it. It tells you two things, firstly
:44:34. > :44:39.the Labour Party is no longer socialist and the Conservative Party
:44:40. > :44:45.is no longer a Christian. They did not stand up against the protection
:44:46. > :44:49.of being forced to walk. You are talking about the old settlement and
:44:50. > :44:56.as a Christian I don't have to abide by that. Don't let's have arguments
:44:57. > :45:00.about that. I break the commandments in many ways, and I know that I do
:45:01. > :45:04.but I would certainly prefer it if it were more enforced. In Germany,
:45:05. > :45:08.civilised and advanced and prosperous country, there is very
:45:09. > :45:11.little shopping on a Sunday. People somehow managed to buy all the
:45:12. > :45:16.things they need before Sunday and they do not starve to death. Dia
:45:17. > :45:19.Chakravarty from the TaxPayers' Alliance, I know you support the
:45:20. > :45:25.right of families to wander around the garden centre on a Sunday, so
:45:26. > :45:27.long as you do not take me! Is this about freedom? It is nice to be
:45:28. > :45:36.peaceful. It is about freedom and being able
:45:37. > :45:40.to choose the day, it is about the freedom of the particular groups,
:45:41. > :45:44.one is the person who might need to shop, they could be working all week
:45:45. > :45:48.and Sunday could be the only day they can pick things up. Secondly
:45:49. > :45:53.it's about the freedom of businesses who want to stay open like a lot of
:45:54. > :45:58.other businesses, we are talking about a particular section within
:45:59. > :46:02.the retail industry, shops of a certain size. It is discriminatory
:46:03. > :46:07.against those shops like the garden centre who have to be big because of
:46:08. > :46:12.the nature of their wearers. And thirdly it is also about the freedom
:46:13. > :46:18.of the workers, some workers want to work on Sunday because it works for
:46:19. > :46:24.them. It is not for us... Bishop Michael is laughing as you say that
:46:25. > :46:32.it is not for us... The poor and the young are made to work. Made to
:46:33. > :46:36.work? Yes, they know that if they don't work they will lose their
:46:37. > :46:39.jobs. I have met scores of such people and the younger people work
:46:40. > :46:44.because they know that if they don't their careers might be in question,
:46:45. > :46:53.so why do we need to shops of days a week? Listen, let me just finished,
:46:54. > :46:57.you have had your say. I have not had my say! There are three reasons
:46:58. > :47:00.why Sunday should remain a holiday for most people, of course there are
:47:01. > :47:07.some people who need to work. There is the humanitarian point, people
:47:08. > :47:10.need work and rest. There is the social point, we need to be
:47:11. > :47:15.together, even for community activities, we need to have a common
:47:16. > :47:20.day we can engage in them unless our hobbies are totally idiosyncratic.
:47:21. > :47:24.And there is a justice issue, which is that the people who are being
:47:25. > :47:27.made to work are usually the poor and the young, the well off and
:47:28. > :47:37.middle class can take a holiday whenever they want. It is all on my
:47:38. > :47:45.list. We have to remember we are a democracy and not a theocracy, I
:47:46. > :47:52.think we all so... What is being proposed, we are not talking about
:47:53. > :47:57.top-down changes to the regulations, we are talking about devolving the
:47:58. > :48:02.power to choose to a local level. Peter mentions Germany but fails to
:48:03. > :48:05.mention that Germany devolved that power to the state legislatures some
:48:06. > :48:17.years ago and in some German federal states they have done away with the
:48:18. > :48:23.regulations altogether. The national federation of newsagents, Paul
:48:24. > :48:28.Baxter, your members will suffer, you claim? Yes, but can I go back to
:48:29. > :48:31.some of the points, freedom of choice, let's look at the facts,
:48:32. > :48:37.there is not a mass out call from the public saying we want shops to
:48:38. > :48:43.be open longer. 58% of current workers in large stores are under
:48:44. > :48:46.pressure to work on Sundays. 77% of the population already say they have
:48:47. > :48:51.less time to spend with their family and often Sunday is the only day
:48:52. > :48:55.they can do that. Walking around the shopping centre with my family is
:48:56. > :48:59.not the best thing I could do. The facts are simple, there is nothing
:49:00. > :49:03.denied from people in this country, there are thousands of shops already
:49:04. > :49:12.open and the online phenomenon, the issue is the big stores have is they
:49:13. > :49:14.say let us open longer so we can compete but that is a fallacy. When
:49:15. > :49:16.deregulation happened in Scotland and during the Olympics when
:49:17. > :49:26.deregulation was allowed fully, sales went down. You talk about the
:49:27. > :49:30.question of local councils having the authority, 52% of those Chief
:49:31. > :49:34.Executive is in charge of local boroughs said they would use that
:49:35. > :49:39.power to open out-of-town shopping, not in town, the population is
:49:40. > :49:43.moving towards local shopping. Those who are most vulnerable in society
:49:44. > :49:48.want local shops to be supportive, take those away and you have
:49:49. > :49:52.destroyed it. If people are shopping at these big retail centres, all
:49:53. > :50:00.those brands are available online, you cannot shop, you cannot stop
:50:01. > :50:12.people from shopping that way. There is no demand for it today. THEY TALK
:50:13. > :50:21.OVER EACH OTHER Would you please extend the courtesy! I am not going
:50:22. > :50:28.to your shop! 3000 net jobs would be lost. Still doesn't take away the
:50:29. > :50:36.point... You have been forming a very orderly queue and you will now
:50:37. > :50:42.be served. Thank you, I did want to ask the bishop, why is it we think
:50:43. > :50:48.the only people who need protecting and have enforced family life if you
:50:49. > :50:53.like with state legislation are those who work in a small segment of
:50:54. > :50:58.the retail industry which is shops of a certain size. You have cleaners
:50:59. > :51:04.working on Sundays, people working on this set are working on Sundays,
:51:05. > :51:08.Nicky is a celebrity so we don't care about him! But the cleaners who
:51:09. > :51:18.will have to clean up after this, transport workers, health care. I am
:51:19. > :51:25.in favour of most people not working and engaging in other activities.
:51:26. > :51:26.Let's listen to Bishop Michael. Then a couple of audience members with
:51:27. > :51:34.their hands up. There are essential a couple of audience members with
:51:35. > :51:38.services, people must work in hospitals for examples. I would be
:51:39. > :51:44.very surprised if schools started opening on Sunday for example. So of
:51:45. > :51:49.course there are large areas... What about Sunday schools? Teachers have
:51:50. > :51:53.to teach on Sunday. This is a social religious activity they volunteer to
:51:54. > :51:58.do. You are free to go and play football on Sunday or go and see
:51:59. > :52:06.your friends. What about the train drivers taking them there? Lady at
:52:07. > :52:12.the back... Bishop Michael, let's hear from your flock. I agree with
:52:13. > :52:16.Bishop Michael, I think it's the poor section of society, the
:52:17. > :52:23.disenfranchised that are being made to go out on a Sunday. You don't see
:52:24. > :52:28.the repercussions. I work 9-5 term time only because I have children.
:52:29. > :52:31.If I worked in a big supermarket and it was part-time no doubt there
:52:32. > :52:37.would be anti-social working including weekends. Nurseries are
:52:38. > :52:39.not open at weekends on the hall. Childminders will ask for extra on
:52:40. > :52:41.anti-social hours but Childminders will ask for extra on
:52:42. > :52:44.getting paid extra so I think it's Childminders will ask for extra on
:52:45. > :52:55.the right idea that the poor need to be protected because... in front of
:52:56. > :53:06.you in the blue jumper. Peter is talking about Germany, in France,
:53:07. > :53:10.when I have been there, on a Sunday no supermarket will be open but the
:53:11. > :53:15.restaurant is open. They open the restaurant especially so that all
:53:16. > :53:18.the families can go and the families are
:53:19. > :53:21.the families can go and the families country. The family unit. What is
:53:22. > :53:30.wrong with them going out on a Sunday, shopping? THEY TALK OVER
:53:31. > :53:36.EACH OTHER If it is good for the family, it is good for society and
:53:37. > :53:40.all of us? I find the idea fanciful that they need to be protected.
:53:41. > :53:48.Let's go back and look at the facts of what is being proposed, they will
:53:49. > :53:52.have an opt out provided for and employees who do not want to work.
:53:53. > :53:57.If we look at the economic data referenced earlier, if you look at,
:53:58. > :54:01.for example, the impact on jobs and prices all the evidence whether you
:54:02. > :54:05.look at people from the London school of economics, they have shown
:54:06. > :54:08.that over the past 20 years in deregulation of Sunday trading laws
:54:09. > :54:15.that it has an aggregate positive net impact on employment. They are
:54:16. > :54:20.not talking about young people who are made to work, for me, when I was
:54:21. > :54:23.young, it was a godsend to be able to work on Sunday. Yet again these
:54:24. > :54:29.people to work on Sunday. Yet again these
:54:30. > :54:32.and the value of nothing! No understanding at all of the
:54:33. > :54:39.importance of family life, no understanding of the pressures
:54:40. > :54:45.faced... What business is it of yours what people do on a Sunday?
:54:46. > :54:48.What business is it of yours? We are discussing a choice we might make
:54:49. > :54:53.and trying to influence it. I disagree with them and I think we
:54:54. > :54:59.shouldn't rush into any more destruction of Sunday. When I go to
:55:00. > :55:04.Muslim countries, the tranquillity and United arrest of a country on
:55:05. > :55:06.Friday morning is an astonishingly refreshing thing to experience,
:55:07. > :55:26.similarly Israel on Saturday. What about the free market? We have
:55:27. > :55:30.broken free market already and I think we need to protect the
:55:31. > :55:34.delicate tradition in which one day is different from the rest, it would
:55:35. > :55:43.be boring with two Saturdays, it's nice to have a different atmosphere.
:55:44. > :55:49.Sunday can be boring. I think we need to preserve this delicate
:55:50. > :55:52.tradition, which is not a religious matter, it's a cultural matter, that
:55:53. > :55:56.we have a day that's a bit different that people cannot feel pressure to
:55:57. > :56:03.go shopping, even my daughter agrees, who loves shopping but she
:56:04. > :56:10.wants to do something different on a Sunday. Richard D. North is nodding
:56:11. > :56:14.as you say that, why so? I think it's a question more of whether we
:56:15. > :56:17.as customers should be saying to herself do I want to be a customer
:56:18. > :56:29.today are do I want to be, would I other be a father or are quiet,... A
:56:30. > :56:31.golfer. A golfer, or a quiet, private person watching The Big
:56:32. > :56:37.Questions and getting my head around it. Getting an inner chill! LAUGHTER
:56:38. > :56:45.There has to be something for a week which has got a rhythm to it and the
:56:46. > :56:52.best component of that is having a day to oneself, of them probably in
:56:53. > :57:00.our times are reflective day. You invented the sabbath. Sunday has
:57:01. > :57:06.always been with us? It is not just because people need to rest, they
:57:07. > :57:12.need a day of common rest. What will the impact be on the people who are
:57:13. > :57:16.in your organisation? On all the studies we have seen a net loss of
:57:17. > :57:21.at least 3000 jobs, more people working longer, more local stores
:57:22. > :57:24.closing, I have not seen any survey seeing people want to go around
:57:25. > :57:28.Tesco with their family on a Saturday. This is about supporting
:57:29. > :57:33.little business over big business. That is not the case at all,
:57:34. > :57:39.businesses like Tesco will have Tesco express. But those are not the
:57:40. > :57:42.people we are talking about, we are asking about why is it important for
:57:43. > :57:48.such a small group to be protected if there is so much fundamentally
:57:49. > :57:53.wrong with our society. Secondly, the whole point about Sunday being a
:57:54. > :58:00.special day, who decides that? I'm not a fan of the word multicultural
:58:01. > :58:07.but we are a diverse society, what if Muslims wanted to take Friday
:58:08. > :58:14.off? They actually do! It is not a universal day of rest. It does not
:58:15. > :58:20.work. A time family can have together. Why do you get to decide
:58:21. > :58:25.it? I am not deciding it. THEY TALK OVER EACH OTHER Let's get rid of
:58:26. > :58:28.everything. As always, the debates will continue
:58:29. > :58:32.online and on Twitter. Next week we're in Leicester,
:58:33. > :58:36.so join us then. But for now it's goodbye
:58:37. > :58:42.and have a great Sunday. I've had a message from China,
:58:43. > :59:05.from my birth mother. How far would you go to save
:59:06. > :59:12.the family who gave you up? She's too ashamed
:59:13. > :59:16.to look at you, Mei. 'Sister, help me. If no-one
:59:17. > :59:20.speak for me, I will die.'