:00:08. > :00:17.Today our The Big Questions: The war in Syria. Can only ground troops
:00:18. > :00:25.defeat The? And Buddhism, is it too much about the self and not enough
:00:26. > :00:34.about others? -- can only ground troops defeat Isil? Good to see you
:00:35. > :00:38.and thank you for joining us. I am Nicky Campbell. Welcome to The Big
:00:39. > :00:41.Questions. Today we are live from Leicester in Britain's most
:00:42. > :00:48.multicultural city. Welcome, everyone, to The Big Questions.
:00:49. > :00:54.Friday's multinational agreement signed in Munich promised a
:00:55. > :00:57.temporary cessation of hostilities in Syria but it is already looking
:00:58. > :01:02.extremely fragile. This 70 member in Syria but it is already looking
:01:03. > :01:08.Syrian support group did not tackle the
:01:09. > :01:13.Syrian support group did not tackle fight on until he had retaken the
:01:14. > :01:17.entire country. Last week, right here, we debated what the moral
:01:18. > :01:20.response to the refugee crisis should be. The biggest push back to
:01:21. > :01:26.making people leave Syria is the past five years of civil war. This
:01:27. > :01:30.week we will debate whether there is a moral case for more outside
:01:31. > :01:36.intervention on the ground to stop that war and deal with the wider
:01:37. > :01:40.threat of Isil's caliphate. Does defeating Isil mean boots on the
:01:41. > :01:46.ground? General Lord Richard Dannatt. Good morning. There will
:01:47. > :01:52.never be public support, will there, for British boots on the ground
:01:53. > :01:56.because of what happened before, the bitter experience of Iraqi? The
:01:57. > :02:01.death, the destruction, the lies, the lack of future planning. Maybe
:02:02. > :02:10.the time has gone for British and the time has gone for British and
:02:11. > :02:14.know better than many of us. Is there a
:02:15. > :02:17.know better than many of us. Is countries? Looking at the lessons of
:02:18. > :02:22.Iraq and Afghanistan, you can get distracted and
:02:23. > :02:23.Iraq and Afghanistan, you can get ground in somewhere like Syria, but
:02:24. > :02:33.I think a quick ground in somewhere like Syria, but
:02:34. > :02:44.live on the ground and it has got to be soldiers acting on the ground
:02:45. > :02:46.that brings a resolution. But within a diplomatic and political framework
:02:47. > :02:48.and that is what is essentially missing in Syria at the present
:02:49. > :02:51.moment. We know that so-called Islamic State, Isil-Daesh, has got
:02:52. > :02:55.to be defeated, that is the international strategic objective,
:02:56. > :02:58.and it will only be done with military defeat. From the air, it
:02:59. > :03:02.can help, but also on the ground. Just look at what is going on at the
:03:03. > :03:05.present moment. The Russians are coordinating with the Assad regime
:03:06. > :03:09.and being very successful, because in the air and on the ground they
:03:10. > :03:12.are working in a coordinated fashion. Our problem is that we
:03:13. > :03:16.think Bashar al-Assad should go and we will not work with his troops. We
:03:17. > :03:25.are working with the opposition and they are losing and this is the big
:03:26. > :03:27.conundrum the West has got to get its head round at the moment. I want
:03:28. > :03:30.to come to you because you were disagreeing with that. Disagreeing
:03:31. > :03:35.that is the way to beat Isil. Why do you think troops on the ground
:03:36. > :03:37.should never be an option? I passionately disagree because there
:03:38. > :03:44.are other options that are not exhausted. First of all, why didn't
:03:45. > :03:55.we try out the financial resources that supported Isil or Isis for the
:03:56. > :04:00.last three years? Four years? Secondly, why didn't we challenge
:04:01. > :04:06.Turkey when it opened its borders for thousands of Jihadi is to pour
:04:07. > :04:14.into Syria and Iraq? Remember, Turkey is in NATO. Third, Isis
:04:15. > :04:20.exports oil and they have been exporting oil for the last three
:04:21. > :04:33.years. Where have the western countries been? Fourth. Isis have
:04:34. > :04:39.been exporting artefacts, Syrian and Iraqi artefacts, with billions, so
:04:40. > :04:42.all these resources... Went back with whether they are not smashing
:04:43. > :04:52.up for Western media consumption, for the cameras. Yes, all those
:04:53. > :04:59.veins running support to Isis, the West has done nothing for that.
:05:00. > :05:05.Plus, the satellites observing Isis. Tell me something, General, when
:05:06. > :05:23.thousands of Isis troops crossed the desert from Raqqa, in the desert,
:05:24. > :05:27.where weather satellites -- were the satellites hovering around every 24
:05:28. > :05:31.hours? And after the attack, suddenly a satellite published two
:05:32. > :05:38.pitches, one of the temple before the destruction of Isis and the
:05:39. > :05:43.second picture after from the satellite. A lot of points there.
:05:44. > :05:47.General, I will come to you in a second. Michael Clarke, former
:05:48. > :05:54.director of the royal services institute. You were grimacing as
:05:55. > :05:57.well and taking mental issue. He says what was the worst thing?
:05:58. > :06:05.Everything he has raised is being done, maybe not fast enough or in a
:06:06. > :06:11.big enough way. The bombing, the British bombing, has been to cut the
:06:12. > :06:14.pipelines that Isil-Daesh are using. They have bombed the place in Mosul
:06:15. > :06:18.where they have their cash, they have physically bombed the cash.
:06:19. > :06:21.They are doing something about Turkey. It is an independent country
:06:22. > :06:33.and this has been going on for three or four months. Yes... Yes, we could
:06:34. > :06:36.see what was going to happen in that attack because it was Bashar
:06:37. > :06:41.al-Assad's troops who walked away and no one was going to do anything.
:06:42. > :06:44.The idea that the West has done nothing is foolish. The West has
:06:45. > :06:49.actually addressed every single one of the things you have raised but
:06:50. > :06:56.not vigorously enough. How do we defeat Isil? Somebody on the ground
:06:57. > :06:59.has got to go toe to toe with Isis and somebody has got to occupy the
:07:00. > :07:05.ground they are presently occupying and militarily that is not so
:07:06. > :07:10.difficult. Isis and most have 30,000 fighters. Which ground troops?
:07:11. > :07:13.Exactly, that is the point. For political reasons it will not be
:07:14. > :07:22.Western ground troops, so realistically other Arab ground
:07:23. > :07:26.troops. These other troops that could make a difference, but to make
:07:27. > :07:29.a difference, they would have to be backed up intensively by Western
:07:30. > :07:38.logistics, intelligence and technical expertise. The Saudis come
:07:39. > :07:44.from an extreme Sunni position. But not as extreme as Isis. In terms of
:07:45. > :07:50.human rights, it is a matter of degree but... It is a civil war and
:07:51. > :07:54.there are no easy options in civil war. Director of the Middle East
:07:55. > :08:01.programme at the Oxford research group, good morning. Well, you might
:08:02. > :08:08.win the war with ground troops but you will not win the peace, that is
:08:09. > :08:14.the problem. What we saw in Iraq was that it took three weeks to
:08:15. > :08:21.overthrow Saddam Hussein. We overthrew his statue. In 15 years on
:08:22. > :08:26.we have an insurgency with 500,000 people dead. We have to get much
:08:27. > :08:30.smarter in what we do. At this point, Islamic State is a secondary
:08:31. > :08:35.cancer. The first cancer, the first problem, is the war between the
:08:36. > :08:41.Government and the opposition. At this point, you have Saddam Hussein
:08:42. > :08:53.killing eight times as many people with bombs as Islamic State is
:08:54. > :09:00.doing. President Assad. Rain yes! Yes! There is a difficult point in
:09:01. > :09:04.the future involving Russia and the USA working closely together. Moving
:09:05. > :09:08.away from where the President Assad should go or stay, what you might
:09:09. > :09:12.have to see is a horrible political fudge. But what really matters is
:09:13. > :09:17.how you end the violence. Until you do that and people are protected,
:09:18. > :09:21.whatever you do with Islamic State, you are not actually dealing with
:09:22. > :09:29.the core problem. Islamic State has been created out of the monstrous
:09:30. > :09:33.effects of war. Who is most responsible for the emergence of the
:09:34. > :09:41.Islamic State? Rain that is a big question! That is what the show is
:09:42. > :09:46.called! There are many components and tragically the West has played
:09:47. > :09:50.its part. Have we played our part? General, I will be back with you in
:09:51. > :09:55.a moment. There is an element. The way that Iraq went wrong in the way
:09:56. > :10:00.that it did, especially in 2011, created a vacuum. But there is also
:10:01. > :10:06.the Arab Spring, which is the route. Somebody set fire to themselves in
:10:07. > :10:10.Tunisia, it spread around the Arab world, which had nothing to do with
:10:11. > :10:16.Al-Qaeda, the Cold War, Arab -Israeli relations in the Levant. It
:10:17. > :10:20.came out of something else. The fact there was disruption across the
:10:21. > :10:24.Levant made it worse, but it did not create it. I think the roots go much
:10:25. > :10:31.deeper, to the Iraq war, the Sunni Shi'ite conflict that emerged. And
:10:32. > :10:34.then the proxy wars between Saudi Arabia and Iran. One of the reasons
:10:35. > :10:40.that Syria is such a mess as they are both acting out their vested
:10:41. > :10:46.interests there. But if we go back to Sunni -sheer-macro tensions, it
:10:47. > :10:49.goes right back to 1979. Yes, but they at least something which
:10:50. > :10:57.absolutely made it worse in the Iraq war. They actually ended up
:10:58. > :11:01.enlarging Shi'ite power in Iran at that point but it was going to be
:11:02. > :11:06.acted out regionally. That is why Syria has become such a nasty war.
:11:07. > :11:10.Peter Ford is the UK ambassador to Syria for a number of years. Hello.
:11:11. > :11:14.A couple of interesting points from Gabrielle. We need to bite the
:11:15. > :11:18.bullet for want of a better phrase on President Assad and have a whole
:11:19. > :11:27.new strategy and we have wasted five years having a desire to destroy
:11:28. > :11:30.that regime. And also the moral situation, our obligation to the
:11:31. > :11:33.region because of the situation, our obligation to the
:11:34. > :11:36.helped create. First of all, situation, our obligation to the
:11:37. > :11:41.President Assad, is he part of the solution? I think sadly, but
:11:42. > :11:45.inevitably, solution? I think sadly, but
:11:46. > :11:47.President Assad is not going to solution? I think sadly, but
:11:48. > :11:50.overthrown. This becomes more clear solution? I think sadly, but
:11:51. > :11:54.with every day that passes. Western analysts have been indulging in
:11:55. > :12:00.wishful thinking for five years. It is time to get real. We owe it to
:12:01. > :12:01.the Syrian people who have been much more realistic and hard-headed about
:12:02. > :12:09.this. The West has got to stop more realistic and hard-headed about
:12:10. > :12:11.propping up the so-called moderate opposition which is not moderate at
:12:12. > :12:20.all, by the way. And it has opposition which is not moderate at
:12:21. > :12:22.the Syrian army, backed possibly by the Russians, to deal with Islamic
:12:23. > :12:34.State. And in Iraq of course, a the Russians, to deal with Islamic
:12:35. > :12:35.local problem that should be dealt with by
:12:36. > :12:42.and they stand a much better practical chance of doing so. But
:12:43. > :12:50.first, as Gabrielle said, there has got to be some sort of ceasefire and
:12:51. > :12:55.overall peace between the Syrian Government and the opposition.
:12:56. > :13:01.Sadly, our own British Government couldn't wait to start undermining
:13:02. > :13:07.the Munich agreement. The ink wasn't dry on the paper before our Foreign
:13:08. > :13:11.Secretary started to bad-mouth it and give the opposition and opening
:13:12. > :13:13.to reject it, which is what has happened. This will be a dreadfully
:13:14. > :13:24.missed opportunity. happened. This will be a dreadfully
:13:25. > :13:36.have a moral duty to act in Syria? Yes, absolutely we do. We have
:13:37. > :13:41.helped to fuel the conflict by indulging in propping up the
:13:42. > :13:45.opposition, giving them so-called non-lethal assistance, political,
:13:46. > :13:50.diplomatic, propaganda assistance. This is just prolonging the agony.
:13:51. > :13:55.What should we have done? We should have backed off. We should not have
:13:56. > :14:00.tried to overthrow the regime. But what about the atrocities in the
:14:01. > :14:06.regime? We are still working for regime overthrow. There are failures
:14:07. > :14:14.in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya. It is like a dog returning to its bonnet.
:14:15. > :14:19.We go back. We have never seen a secular leader that we did not want
:14:20. > :14:24.to overthrow. Should we have turned our back on President Assad and say,
:14:25. > :14:29.that is what happens? Sadly we have got to deal with the situation as it
:14:30. > :14:33.is today. The Assad regime has been brutal and there have been dreadful
:14:34. > :14:37.mistakes. At the end of the day, they are secular regime, the only
:14:38. > :14:45.force in the field that is likely to keep Syria as a pluralistic, secular
:14:46. > :14:49.society that respects women. The people who call for the overthrow of
:14:50. > :14:52.President Assad need to answer this question. What will take the place
:14:53. > :15:02.of this Syrian regime which controls, despite everything, over
:15:03. > :15:06.60% of the population? The areas may be small, but still 60% of the
:15:07. > :15:11.population live in areas that are under the control of the Syrian
:15:12. > :15:16.Government. If you take away the Syrian Government, there will be
:15:17. > :15:22.implosion, massacres, a situation even worse than today.
:15:23. > :15:28.General Lord Dannatt, Peter raises the situation, sometimes it is about
:15:29. > :15:33.the lesser of two evils. We've seen this before with Gaddafi. We saw it
:15:34. > :15:41.with Saddam Hussein. What came after was worse. Keeping the strong man in
:15:42. > :15:49.place, I suppose in European terms, it was true with Marshall Tito as
:15:50. > :15:52.well. What Peter has done is moved the conversation correctly on the
:15:53. > :15:56.regime change. If we've learned anything from Iraq and Libya, when
:15:57. > :15:59.you take a regime away and you haven't got a plan immediately to
:16:00. > :16:05.replace it with something sensible you get chaos and enter a vacuum, as
:16:06. > :16:09.we saw in Iraq in 2003, when we saw Al-Qaeda and others come in. The
:16:10. > :16:15.issue I think in Syria, and there may be an element of my enemy's
:16:16. > :16:19.enemy is my friend and choosing the least worst of several unattractive
:16:20. > :16:22.options, it is possibly probably to say, if that regime falls there'll
:16:23. > :16:27.be chaos. Let's work with that regime. The Russians have made that
:16:28. > :16:30.decision. That's why they are effectively working quite
:16:31. > :16:36.successfully. Maybe there's a compromise to be made there. The
:16:37. > :16:40.West wants Assad to go, but let his regime stay so the stability is in
:16:41. > :16:46.place. Unlike what happened in Libya and Iraq after Saddam Hussein. The
:16:47. > :16:53.other lesson... Is he going to agree to, that I'm off to live in a Dacia
:16:54. > :16:58.outside Moscow? Who are you to decide the fate of other countries,
:16:59. > :17:03.to change this or that regime? He's killed tens of thousands of people.
:17:04. > :17:08.Dialogue is not created for friends. It is created for enemies. So the
:17:09. > :17:13.British way of stubborn, in refusing to dialogue with the regime, but we
:17:14. > :17:17.have to understand that dialogue is specifically created for enemies,
:17:18. > :17:24.not for friends. I don't call my friend and say, shall we go from a
:17:25. > :17:29.dialogue. It is funny, but I call somebody who I am in dispute with
:17:30. > :17:34.and say, shall we talk about it. Omar, audience in a minutes, put
:17:35. > :17:40.your hands up, I would love to hear what you are thinking with this
:17:41. > :17:44.situation with so-called Isis, Syria, the inextricably complex
:17:45. > :17:49.multi-layered, multi-dimensional conflict. Omar, Peter made the point
:17:50. > :17:55.about the chaos that would follow the removal of Assad. It would be an
:17:56. > :18:00.absolute vacuum of hell. Do you buy that? Well, historically, if you are
:18:01. > :18:04.going to use history, yes, maybe that happens if you destroy a whole
:18:05. > :18:08.government. That's probably what they did in Iraq. But this is
:18:09. > :18:12.underestimating the Syrians. It is as though the Syrians, there are 22
:18:13. > :18:17.million Syrians and there is only one who can rule them. The Syrians
:18:18. > :18:20.are a well educated people. To underestimate and say that they
:18:21. > :18:25.can't rule themselves, it's the Syrian society that live in harmony.
:18:26. > :18:30.It wasn't Assad that made them live in harmony. If he did, they wouldn't
:18:31. > :18:36.be revolting against him. The main issue, and this is my experience
:18:37. > :18:40.through my charity, Hand in Hand for Syria. Delivering aid into Syria.
:18:41. > :18:43.I've watched how the battle lines have moved. I've seen the
:18:44. > :18:50.destruction of what has happened. If we are going to use the humanitarian
:18:51. > :18:57.groups' statistics, and look at Assad's CV and his troops, who are
:18:58. > :19:03.not Syrian troops any more, he is using militia from outside. Sorry
:19:04. > :19:08.that is incorrect. Over half the fighting forces on the Government
:19:09. > :19:14.side are Syrian forces. That is not true. Are you counting the Shia as
:19:15. > :19:18.non-Syrian? May I ask what you are yourself? I am Syrian. And what is
:19:19. > :19:25.your religion? My religion is Islam. Which part of Islam? I don't look at
:19:26. > :19:29.it like that. We need to know where you are coming from. As a Syrian we
:19:30. > :19:33.do not look at this difference. That's how I was brought up in
:19:34. > :19:39.Syria. You don't want to say that you are Sunni. I am Sunni and I'm
:19:40. > :19:44.proud of it. Second, now we can see where you are coming from. Peter...
:19:45. > :19:51.Wait a second, Gabriel. I will come to you. Why is this relevant, what
:19:52. > :20:00.form of Islam? Because the bottom line of all this is the demographics
:20:01. > :20:07.of Syria. Syria is about 60% Sunni and about 40% minorities, Shia,
:20:08. > :20:11.Alawite, Christian. The Assad family are Alawite. Omar is right that
:20:12. > :20:17.historically they have tended to live in harmony, but this has been
:20:18. > :20:21.disrupted, and very sadly what the fighting comes down to now is
:20:22. > :20:26.whether there is going to be a tyranny of the Sunni majority, all
:20:27. > :20:33.the jihadis are Sunnis. That is not true. Not one Shia among them. Sorry
:20:34. > :20:38.Peter, this is not true. You underestimate... Excuse me! Gabriel
:20:39. > :20:44.in a second. You say it is not true. I'm going to break it up a little
:20:45. > :20:53.bit with Gabriel who wanted to come in. I will come to the audience in a
:20:54. > :20:57.second. Gabriel? You are highlighting the complexity of war
:20:58. > :21:03.but we need to be respectful to you when you say, I don't want to
:21:04. > :21:09.identify myself as a Sunni or a Shia. We also need to be respectful
:21:10. > :21:12.that the opposition is not only al-Nusra and others. There's a
:21:13. > :21:17.moderate opposition who don't have power on the ground. Power on the
:21:18. > :21:21.ground is Armed Forces. What's your definition of moderate here? There
:21:22. > :21:25.are secular groups or groups who've a vision of how people are going to
:21:26. > :21:30.live together. I'm sure you are part of that. It is going to be really
:21:31. > :21:34.essential that they're part of any kind of final deal. So when we are
:21:35. > :21:40.saying we have to do nasty political fudge with Assad, we also have to in
:21:41. > :21:43.the end establish an inclusive process that listens to a whole
:21:44. > :21:46.range of voices. And some of them have a vision for the future that
:21:47. > :21:50.range of voices. And some of them should be listening to. One thought,
:21:51. > :21:55.Omar. If you look at the opposition, it is a mixture. It is not purely
:21:56. > :22:01.Sunni. There are Alawites and Christians in the opposition. There
:22:02. > :22:07.are Druz. I'm Syrian, I was brought up in Syria. When I was brought up
:22:08. > :22:10.in Syria I did not, I was not brought up in school to distinguish
:22:11. > :22:15.between a Christian, Muslim, Sunni, Xiia. You said it, the Shia
:22:16. > :22:17.between a Christian, Muslim, Sunni, minority, OK? The people who are
:22:18. > :22:24.fighting for Assad right now are not the Syrians. I have cousins who are
:22:25. > :22:31.Sunnis. I have cousins who are Sunnis working for the Assad regime.
:22:32. > :22:36.Half the Syrian Army is Sunnis. This is the inconvenient truth. This
:22:37. > :22:38.divide isn't one we are going to surmount, clearly. What is
:22:39. > :22:42.interesting, and this is something to reflect on, the premise of our
:22:43. > :22:46.debate is whether ground troops, wherever they were to come from,
:22:47. > :22:50.would be defeating IS. We are talking about what many perceive as
:22:51. > :22:56.the much greater threat to human life, a moot point as to what Mr
:22:57. > :22:59.Cameron referred to as the existential threat of IS, but we are
:23:00. > :23:04.concentrating on Syria. That in itself is
:23:05. > :23:06.concentrating on Syria. That in all I wish we would just call them
:23:07. > :23:12.Daesh, because they are neither Islamic or a state. I also
:23:13. > :23:13.Daesh, because they are neither that although Daesh clearly need to
:23:14. > :23:23.be defeated because of what they are doing to women and the LGBT-plus
:23:24. > :23:29.communities in Iraq, but killing the political adherence that are there
:23:30. > :23:34.rather than the twisted ideology matters. We've known from previous
:23:35. > :23:39.ideaologists that until you've shown that the ideology is not to be
:23:40. > :23:42.followed all you are going to get is a new group of people coming up
:23:43. > :23:46.behind. APPLAUSE. OK. Good morning to you. I
:23:47. > :23:51.think so far what we've established is that this is a complex problem
:23:52. > :23:55.and the reason why it is so complex is because everyone has a different
:23:56. > :23:59.agenda when it comes to Daesh. I think not everyone agrees, we
:24:00. > :24:04.haven't reached a point that we agree that they are evil because
:24:05. > :24:08.they are evil. Some people show sympathies towards them. Some
:24:09. > :24:12.because they are killing Shias, some because they are killing Kurds, some
:24:13. > :24:15.because it means a better defence contract, some because they are
:24:16. > :24:18.clinging on to power. We haven't even identified the problem yet.
:24:19. > :24:23.There are some people yet to recognise that Daesh should be
:24:24. > :24:28.defeated because they are pure evil. Some people unfortunately have
:24:29. > :24:32.sympathies towards them. 800 or so people have gone from this country
:24:33. > :24:37.to join them. General Lord Dannatt, the points which are joined from the
:24:38. > :24:41.two contributor there is about how we defeat the ideology. Why is this
:24:42. > :24:44.so attractive to go out and join this so-called Islamic State? I
:24:45. > :24:48.think there's a general acceptance, for whatever reason, that defeating
:24:49. > :24:51.Daesh is really important, but the other thing is they must be
:24:52. > :24:55.discredited. That's what's really important as far as the domestic
:24:56. > :24:59.market here in the UK is concerned. We've really got to work as hard as
:25:00. > :25:02.we can with minority populations, with the Muslim population, to make
:25:03. > :25:06.sure that young people can see a future and have a stake in this
:25:07. > :25:10.country, in our cities in Leicester, wherever else. But they've got to
:25:11. > :25:15.feel they have a better future here and not going off on a jihadist
:25:16. > :25:19.adventure. That's why discrediting Islamic State, Daesh, is really,
:25:20. > :25:24.really important. Do you discredit them, the most important part of
:25:25. > :25:29.discrediting them is to militarily degrade them isn't it, or not? You
:25:30. > :25:33.can't separate these things. They've got to be defeated. Daesh
:25:34. > :25:36.authorities such as they are are not going to be subject to diplomatic
:25:37. > :25:39.pressure, economic sanctions. They are only going to respond to
:25:40. > :25:44.military pressure, which does bring you back to the issue that they've
:25:45. > :25:47.got to be defeated on the ground, supported from the air. Whose boots
:25:48. > :25:51.on the ground? That's the big issue that hasn't been settled. But I
:25:52. > :25:54.hope, and I come back to this point, it is really important from a
:25:55. > :25:59.domestic point of view that what they aspire to be and aspire to do
:26:00. > :26:04.is discredited so that young people don't feel a pull to go to Syria and
:26:05. > :26:07.join it. That's divisional and it is a shame, a tragedy. What tough
:26:08. > :26:12.questions have to be asked in this country about why people go there? I
:26:13. > :26:17.think it is opportunity. It's hope. Do young Muslim people feel they
:26:18. > :26:21.have a stake this is our education system good enough? Our job
:26:22. > :26:25.opportunities good enough? A whole social thing have got to be improved
:26:26. > :26:29.so people have a meaningful futures this country and want to be
:26:30. > :26:38.successful British citizens ant not feel they have to go off on
:26:39. > :26:42.adventure with elsewhere. But does that not expects bait the tensions
:26:43. > :26:47.and the narrative they have? I think where we've got to in this whole
:26:48. > :26:51.debate over the last four or five years is only makes sense to put a
:26:52. > :26:55.significant international force on the ground into Syria after a
:26:56. > :27:01.diplomatic framework of some sort, analogous to how the Bosnian war was
:27:02. > :27:05.ended in the mid 1990s. The Dayton peace agreement had a framework in
:27:06. > :27:08.place and NATO put an international force in and has brought a measure
:27:09. > :27:12.of peace to that country. That's the framework for the future in Syria.
:27:13. > :27:17.How you get, there that's where the diplomats have to work it out. Canon
:27:18. > :27:22.David Jennings, a man in a dog collar. There's two of us. There is.
:27:23. > :27:29.Nicky, your question raised the question about the morality. Is it
:27:30. > :27:32.moral? In one sense no war is moral in strict termses but the issue
:27:33. > :27:36.facing people now is the death and the destruction that is happening on
:27:37. > :27:41.the ground. So there's a kind of immediate practical issue as to how
:27:42. > :27:44.you minimise and protect and prevent that continuing. And then the longer
:27:45. > :27:49.term political agenda. And the security threat from IS to this
:27:50. > :27:54.country. As Gabriel said, the whole thing, and Peter alluded to this, is
:27:55. > :27:59.a mess, and more of a mess recently with Turkey attacking Kurdish people
:28:00. > :28:02.in Syria. The thing escalates, so there's a need to prevent the
:28:03. > :28:06.suffering and the death and destruction. I'm not sure boots on
:28:07. > :28:10.the ground is the way to deal with that. That exacerbates the
:28:11. > :28:13.situation. Our reputation and achievement in securing regime
:28:14. > :28:19.change in the regime hasn't been very successful of late. We don't
:28:20. > :28:22.seek to make regime change in North Korea or Zimbabwe, where you also
:28:23. > :28:28.have tyrannical rulers... APPLAUSE. We need to be careful. One
:28:29. > :28:32.thing, Nicky, I haven't heard anybody speak about is, what would
:28:33. > :28:35.be the legitimate role of the United Nations in this situation? Is there
:28:36. > :28:40.a role for a United Nations peacekeeping force, if you can come
:28:41. > :28:43.to some agreement, that prevents the death and destruction on the ground,
:28:44. > :28:49.and can enable the move towards a more political and stable situation?
:28:50. > :28:52.Michael? The United Nations is involved, the UN Secretary-General's
:28:53. > :28:56.representative is in Syria all the time. Last week he said, we are
:28:57. > :29:03.taking a break from this. We cannot make any difference that will do any
:29:04. > :29:09.good and he has stood back to see what happens with the Munich
:29:10. > :29:12.Agreement, the Geneva peace talks are to reconvene on 25th
:29:13. > :29:15.Afghanistan. If the UN says yes let's have a Australian force, the
:29:16. > :29:19.first people they will turn to is western troops. Because those are
:29:20. > :29:22.the troops that can physically do it. It depends which western troops,
:29:23. > :29:28.because there are western troops that are not part of the people
:29:29. > :29:35.involved previously and messed things up. I will lay you a bet
:29:36. > :29:40.they'll be NATO troops. I'm not a betting man. Michael, only western
:29:41. > :29:44.military expertise will make progress? Almost certainly. We've
:29:45. > :29:49.had Irish troops, Pakistani troops. There were a range of other troops
:29:50. > :29:52.that can go under the blue helmet and the United Nations... In certain
:29:53. > :29:58.situations that is true, but not this one. The point Michael is
:29:59. > :30:04.making is it is going be difficult. It means well-trained troops, but if
:30:05. > :30:09.a western force were to go in without a framework, the western
:30:10. > :30:16.troops should stay present for the minimum amount of time and hand on
:30:17. > :30:19.to a follow-on force under the UN flag, ideally from... Pakistan. Post
:30:20. > :30:33.war planning must have been learnt. In this scenario of Western troops
:30:34. > :30:39.going in, how long would it take to degrade militarily Isil? If Western
:30:40. > :30:45.troops were put on the ground, which is not going to happen, but if they
:30:46. > :30:49.were, it would be a couple of months. Isis are not difficult to
:30:50. > :30:56.roll up. They occupy a lot of territory but... A couple of months?
:30:57. > :31:00.Yes. If you are talking about Islamic State, you're not talking
:31:01. > :31:04.about a disciplined force. They are very good at terrorising people and
:31:05. > :31:09.raping girls but they are not very good at fighting. They are very good
:31:10. > :31:14.at terrorising but not fighting. This is reminiscent to some people
:31:15. > :31:20.of 1914, it will be over by Christmas. But perhaps he is right?
:31:21. > :31:23.It would be great if he is right. If those kind of interventions work,
:31:24. > :31:28.then of course we want to degrade and we can Islamic State, but our
:31:29. > :31:32.experience is that once you go to war, there is mission creep and you
:31:33. > :31:37.can only pull out once you have won and then you get a quagmire. At the
:31:38. > :31:41.moment what we are talking about is in fact Saudi troops potentially
:31:42. > :31:48.going. That has been put on the agenda. Saudi Arabia is in a
:31:49. > :31:52.quagmire in the Yemen. There is a terrible humanitarian crisis. These
:31:53. > :31:54.are tough and fighters. People who have fought in Chechnya, Iraq,
:31:55. > :32:01.Afghanistan. They are have fought in Chechnya, Iraq,
:32:02. > :32:05.cause. But they have the benefit of British military hardware, don't
:32:06. > :32:09.they, which has been sold to them? In the end it is a bigger problem
:32:10. > :32:12.than that. You have got to defeat the idea. And how you defeat the
:32:13. > :32:16.idea... The whole military response the idea. And how you defeat the
:32:17. > :32:31.that we have had has been part of Islamic State. But the Saudis are
:32:32. > :32:32.opposed. No. They ran quite a lot of funding in the early days of these
:32:33. > :32:36.groups. funding in the early days of these
:32:37. > :32:40.in any way, shape or form? We funding in the early days of these
:32:41. > :32:43.got to get smart. Within Islamic funding in the early days of these
:32:44. > :32:47.State, there funding in the early days of these
:32:48. > :32:49.in the party that was under Saddam Hussein's rule, which is why they
:32:50. > :32:52.in the party that was under Saddam are so strategic and smart. Then we
:32:53. > :32:58.have those which have an apoplectic vision. The end is coming
:32:59. > :33:06.have those which have an apoplectic will hasten it? And we cannot talk
:33:07. > :33:07.to them. They have a vision that they have to destroy
:33:08. > :33:11.to them. They have a vision that create a new vision. But within this
:33:12. > :33:15.there are foreign fighters, many of whom will be disillusioned. With an
:33:16. > :33:18.opportunity, you could throw them away. There are people on the
:33:19. > :33:25.grounds aborting them because they are being better paid. -- supporting
:33:26. > :33:29.them. There are genuine Sunni grievances that need to be
:33:30. > :33:33.addressed. We cannot talk to them about a caliphate or retaining their
:33:34. > :33:39.territory but in time, until you address the root causes, Islamic
:33:40. > :33:43.State, you can do away with it militarily at this point, and then
:33:44. > :33:50.you will see them in Libya, in Nigeria. You have got to work on how
:33:51. > :33:56.you defeat the idea. Peter, if President Assad were to be shored up
:33:57. > :34:02.to an extent that he thought he was in power for keeps, witty return to
:34:03. > :34:06.the battle against Islamic State? -- would he returned to the battle
:34:07. > :34:14.against Islamic State or other irrelevant to him? Not at all. He
:34:15. > :34:21.cannot give much attention to Islamic State at the moment because
:34:22. > :34:27.he is pinned down because of the West. I want to raise a slightly
:34:28. > :34:36.different issue. Be careful what you wish for. If you wish for Western
:34:37. > :34:41.force or Sunni Arab force from Saudi Arabia etc taking land from Islamic
:34:42. > :34:45.State, you are going to have the issue of to who eventually will they
:34:46. > :34:53.turn that land over? At the end of the day, this is Syria. Foreign
:34:54. > :34:58.troops cannot stay indefinitely. In fact it would be creating yet
:34:59. > :35:05.another quagmire. It would become a vortex for other jihadis, other
:35:06. > :35:11.countries to come and sees this territory, not least the Syrian
:35:12. > :35:17.Government. Be careful what you wish for. Better to leave it to President
:35:18. > :35:22.Assad and the Russians. But getting rid of so-called Islamic State, is
:35:23. > :35:28.that in Assad's interest? They are at war with the people who are at
:35:29. > :35:34.war with President Assad. Of course it is in his interest. The Syrian
:35:35. > :35:40.army is fighting Islamic State. Nobody in the Western media wants to
:35:41. > :35:44.talk about that. In a city of 200,000 people, they are encircled
:35:45. > :35:49.by Islamic State, besieged. We hear about Aleppo but not this city, why?
:35:50. > :35:53.Because it is a government-controlled area and we
:35:54. > :35:59.are not interested in the suffering of the government-controlled areas,
:36:00. > :36:02.whether it is Western Aleppo or in Syria. We are suddenly interested
:36:03. > :36:08.because the Syrian Government has started to make some progress. That
:36:09. > :36:12.is a really interesting point. This is where it gets complicated. The
:36:13. > :36:17.Russian have started bombing Islamic State positions there because they
:36:18. > :36:22.are trying to lift the siege where Assad's forces are besieged, that is
:36:23. > :36:26.how conjugated it is. That is absolutely right. The lesser of two
:36:27. > :36:33.evils are got to be thought about very carefully here. The only reason
:36:34. > :36:36.Assad's troops are successful on the ground that the present moment is
:36:37. > :36:40.because they are working in harmony with the Russians and we don't like
:36:41. > :36:43.it but it is succeeding. Back to my original point, if there is going to
:36:44. > :36:49.be further intervention by Western led Boots on the ground, it can only
:36:50. > :36:52.be within a diplomatic framework and the purpose of intervention is to
:36:53. > :36:56.increment that on the ground. It will not be perfect, it will be
:36:57. > :37:03.messy, but it is what we have got to do. You have had your hand up for a
:37:04. > :37:06.while. Hello. I think the estimate of a couple of months is to defeat
:37:07. > :37:12.the traditional military force, but then you have got to consider that
:37:13. > :37:15.the second they engage British troops in a forlorn battle they will
:37:16. > :37:23.lose and then become an insurgency and suddenly you are fighting an
:37:24. > :37:28.ideology and a lesson from Iraq and Afghanistan is we cannot kill an
:37:29. > :37:33.ideology. It will persist. The best way to defeat Isis is educating
:37:34. > :37:37.people about Islam, that it is not a violent religion, and stop them
:37:38. > :37:41.sending out their message. In the black jacket? The West needs to be
:37:42. > :37:45.very realistic about what they can achieve here. There is not the
:37:46. > :37:51.wherewithal to put large numbers of forces on the ground. Or even bring
:37:52. > :37:58.large numbers of local fighters to engage with Islamic State. I think
:37:59. > :38:01.you realistically use the word degrade, and it is effectively
:38:02. > :38:07.strangling this movement over a very long, sustained period of time. And
:38:08. > :38:12.weakening its ability to continue any kind of offensive operations.
:38:13. > :38:21.Once it finds it cannot expand, it will start to die. As we are edging
:38:22. > :38:28.towards the end of this, what is the situation like for Christians and
:38:29. > :38:34.for the survival of Christianity across the region, if you like?
:38:35. > :38:38.There is very little hope for survival because now Iraq has lost
:38:39. > :38:48.already 80% of Christianity and Syria is on the move. We have lost
:38:49. > :38:55.in Syria 400,000 people, dead. And over 11 million people on the move,
:38:56. > :39:01.displaced, between refugees and other displaced. The minorities are
:39:02. > :39:10.disappearing. If Christianity disappeared from the Middle East, it
:39:11. > :39:14.is bad for Islam and it is bad for everybody, because Islam will have
:39:15. > :39:20.proven to the world that it is not a religion that can live with another.
:39:21. > :39:22.And this image of Islam, we do not want it. We don't want it as
:39:23. > :39:29.Christians and the Muslims don't want it. But if the West is doing
:39:30. > :39:34.nothing to solve the problem of Syria, if Islam is not doing much to
:39:35. > :39:38.solve the problem of Syria, all are flexing their muscles about troops
:39:39. > :39:44.on the ground, which is much bigger than that. Nobody is asking the
:39:45. > :39:50.question or answering the question where is Isis getting their weapons
:39:51. > :39:59.from? Where is Isis... They have coins now, currency. Where are all
:40:00. > :40:06.these resources coming from? Instead of battling over the question of
:40:07. > :40:11.boots on the ground, how can we dry out their resources? Last word,
:40:12. > :40:15.General. Very pertinent questions. I agree with all the things being said
:40:16. > :40:18.over here on my left. I think it would be a tragic outcome if
:40:19. > :40:23.Christians and other minorities were forced out of Iraq and Syria. After
:40:24. > :40:29.all, Christianity started in the Middle East and seven centuries
:40:30. > :40:31.later Islam came along. The point is absolutely right that different
:40:32. > :40:35.people that religions have got to work together but there is no point
:40:36. > :40:40.sitting here on a Sunday morning debating these things, wringing our
:40:41. > :40:45.hands and saying how awful. What we need is leadership in the diplomatic
:40:46. > :40:47.world to come up with a framework, leadership of a strong will to put
:40:48. > :40:53.in an international force to increment that agreement on the
:40:54. > :40:55.ground. But also a realisation that if international forces,
:40:56. > :41:01.particularly Judeo Christian Western forces stay too long, we become part
:41:02. > :41:04.of the problem and not part of the solution and we need to follow up
:41:05. > :41:06.with local forces. We have got to get this right and it will not go
:41:07. > :41:09.away with just wishful thinking. get this right and it will not go
:41:10. > :41:17.Thank you very much indeed. get this right and it will not go
:41:18. > :41:21.you can join in this debate, and please do so, by logging onto the
:41:22. > :41:27.BBC website and following the link to the online discussion. And you
:41:28. > :41:32.can tweet us. Tell us what you think about the last question this
:41:33. > :41:37.morning. Is Buddhism too much about the self? Very interesting. If you
:41:38. > :41:42.like to be in the audience in a future show, please email us. We
:41:43. > :41:49.will be in Cambridge next week, the Newcastle on the 28th, and Cardiff
:41:50. > :41:54.the week after that. Tomorrow it is the Buddhist celebration of Nirvana,
:41:55. > :41:59.when the budget achieved the complete death of his physical body
:42:00. > :42:04.and was released from a cycle of rebirth when unresolved, passes on
:42:05. > :42:05.and was released from a cycle of to a newborn. Buddhists only achieve
:42:06. > :42:09.Nirvana during their life when they no longer suffer from
:42:10. > :42:11.Nirvana during their life when they greedy. The Buddha
:42:12. > :42:17.Nirvana during their life when they this state you need to
:42:18. > :42:21.Nirvana during their life when they self, the eternal, Bliss and the
:42:22. > :42:27.pure. Is Buddhism too much about the self? Good
:42:28. > :42:29.pure. Is Buddhism too much about the Deegalle. You are among a philosophy
:42:30. > :42:34.and ethics as well. This is Deegalle. You are among a philosophy
:42:35. > :42:43.of no selfishness that we are aiming for. Getting rid of the ego. Tell us
:42:44. > :42:49.more. I think Buddhism has a purpose that when you do not exist, you get
:42:50. > :42:55.enlightenment. When you do not exist? The Buddhist problem
:42:56. > :42:58.having ego. That is the problem. Buddhists are talking about selfless
:42:59. > :43:06.person is so good of them cannot be selfish because the ultimate aim is
:43:07. > :43:16.to be selfless. There are three key ideas, the idea of impermanence,
:43:17. > :43:22.another it is things being unsatisfactory. There is no
:43:23. > :43:26.permanent self. The cycle of life? There is continuity
:43:27. > :43:29.permanent self. The cycle of life? discontinuous. We do not exist? You
:43:30. > :43:35.come to the realisation that you do not exist by meditation and looking
:43:36. > :43:39.within, yes? That is right. You examine yourself and you try to
:43:40. > :43:48.release yourself from afflictions and bonds and attachments. You have
:43:49. > :43:53.detached yourself from your family, haven't you? Everything, even
:43:54. > :43:57.ideology. We had a lot of discussion about ideology earlier. That is an
:43:58. > :44:03.important one. How do you detach yourself from your family? What is
:44:04. > :44:07.that about? If you are attached to your family, you are thinking about
:44:08. > :44:13.only one section of humanity. If you have an equal mind to everybody, and
:44:14. > :44:17.if you want to cultivate that for all beings, you cannot be attached
:44:18. > :44:22.only to your family, because your family are blood relatives and you
:44:23. > :44:30.have no perspective beyond that. You should be able to go beyond your own
:44:31. > :44:35.family. Right. Gotcha! It is fascinating but quite complicated.
:44:36. > :44:40.Difficult for a lot of people to get their head around it. Isn't it
:44:41. > :44:43.better, rather than sitting on a cushion and looking inwards, to get
:44:44. > :44:48.out there and do do charitable works and help people and do what many
:44:49. > :44:54.Christians and humanists and Muslims do? The idea in Islam of reaching
:44:55. > :44:56.out and helping others and doing charitable work. How can you do that
:44:57. > :45:05.from your room with incense? I think Buddhism appreciates
:45:06. > :45:09.altruism, it is very important, but it says you have to prepare
:45:10. > :45:14.yourself, you have to have proper training, to understand, and if you
:45:15. > :45:19.get into that situation without any proper qualification you are going
:45:20. > :45:25.to, you won't achieve that purpose. The meditation is a training for
:45:26. > :45:30.that. Initially you have to isolate yourself, discuss who you are. Once
:45:31. > :45:34.you lose yourself you are able to help others. I understand, getting
:45:35. > :45:37.yourself into a better situation to achieve all those things. Jennings
:45:38. > :45:45.jerngs it is rather like prayer isn't it, or any form of reflection.
:45:46. > :45:49.It can be, it can be beneficial, it can be constructive and move outside
:45:50. > :45:55.of it. I don't want to criticise Buddhism, which I have a great deal
:45:56. > :45:59.of respect for. What we've heard is admirable. It is one of the great
:46:00. > :46:03.religion obvious the world and we were in partnership and often
:46:04. > :46:08.dialogue as well. I would want to argue the point that Christianity in
:46:09. > :46:13.particular is a this-worldly religion. It looks beyond self. It
:46:14. > :46:22.is not a self help religion. It is not one that seeks benefit for self.
:46:23. > :46:26.It is subversive particularly of ideologist, and of religious
:46:27. > :46:31.orthodoxy where they contradict and contravene justice. We need to go
:46:32. > :46:34.beyond self improvement, self enlightenment to have a positive
:46:35. > :46:40.engagement with society and the world and all the ills that surround
:46:41. > :46:45.that. If I may put words into our friend's mouth, he says you have to
:46:46. > :46:48.have that self enlightenment to be better equipped to go beyond. I'm
:46:49. > :46:53.sure that's the case, but it needs to be built into the Dna. Of the
:46:54. > :46:57.religious view and perspective, so that you are constantly engaging
:46:58. > :47:05.with other people, other issues and challenging injustice. Are you
:47:06. > :47:10.constantly engaging? I think in the Buddhist case there is no criterion.
:47:11. > :47:15.Each person does their bit according to their own abilities. Some people
:47:16. > :47:20.are very good at working with conflict resolution and feeding the
:47:21. > :47:24.poor and so on. Some other people are good meditators and some others
:47:25. > :47:28.are good at writing and doing prayers and so on. I think what is
:47:29. > :47:40.important for the Buddhist perspective is you do your own bit
:47:41. > :47:44.very well, sincerely. Is doing your own bit, it is inherently selfish.
:47:45. > :47:48.You have to get yourself in the right place to achieve anything in
:47:49. > :47:54.life. You exercise, you brush your teeth, but this self enlightenment
:47:55. > :47:58.to me is in the same category of that. Altruism is giving of yourself
:47:59. > :48:02.in service to others. Getting out there and volunteering. The person
:48:03. > :48:06.who is the recipient of volunteering, if you are giving soup
:48:07. > :48:12.to the homeless, they don't know if you've med at a timed for 40 years
:48:13. > :48:20.before doing that or to raise your profile. Or to get par Christ
:48:21. > :48:24.points. Giving is just giving. It is, Mrs Pleasure in giving. When you
:48:25. > :48:28.give Christmas or birthday presents you get pleasure from that act of
:48:29. > :48:32.giving. I found through the volunteering that I've done and
:48:33. > :48:36.facilitated others to do they've become less selfish. They've become
:48:37. > :48:40.less greedy. They have had more compassion. So seeing the suffering
:48:41. > :48:46.of others. This is what it is all about. You find yourself through
:48:47. > :48:50.volunteering. There is something inherently selfish at discovering
:48:51. > :48:56.the self and trying to get rid of selfishness. It remind me in the man
:48:57. > :49:01.in the Life of Brian, who is sitting down the hole for 40 years with his
:49:02. > :49:06.juniper bush. Is he waiting for that 40 years to be up before he goes out
:49:07. > :49:11.and does good in the world? Get out there and do good. There are lots of
:49:12. > :49:16.misconceptions about Buddhism. You can't take away the fact that
:49:17. > :49:26.Buddhism by its very nature is about self absorption, how we and that the
:49:27. > :49:29.nature of self in relation to what Buddhism is trying to teach. The
:49:30. > :49:35.idea that satisfactoriness or suffering as it is often described
:49:36. > :49:39.in English is the root cause of clinic and craving. Those issues
:49:40. > :49:47.that relate to our continual striving on the wheel, the Samsric
:49:48. > :49:51.wheel of life to continue to perpetuate ourselves as self.
:49:52. > :49:54.Hamsters in a cage. The only way to get out of the wheel is to do
:49:55. > :49:59.something about the nature of existence. That desire that you talk
:50:00. > :50:03.about, that passion, if you get off the wheel and say, I'm not attached
:50:04. > :50:08.to this outcome in anyway, shape or form, we we wouldn't have vaccines,
:50:09. > :50:13.people wouldn't have discovered that gravitational waves. That's desire
:50:14. > :50:19.and attachment to the outcome that drives innovation. We would be dying
:50:20. > :50:25.of middle age diseases if people didn't have that desire to achieve
:50:26. > :50:29.that. I think the altruism, Michelle mentioned charity or generosity and
:50:30. > :50:37.the foundation of Buddhist path is generosity. If you take a vow of
:50:38. > :50:41.charity index, Myanmar is the top of the charity index in giving. Does it
:50:42. > :50:47.mean that Buddhist people are selfish? It does not. Is this all
:50:48. > :50:51.about reincarnation and thinking about how you are going to come
:50:52. > :51:00.back? That's important, but one way of losing yourself is to give away.
:51:01. > :51:05.So the studies, he gave his blood, his eyes and his wife, children and
:51:06. > :51:09.so on. The giving away is a very important part of training. If you
:51:10. > :51:14.have given yourself and that sense of ego has dissolved and you come
:51:15. > :51:21.back as something else, is it still you if you've lost yourself? It is a
:51:22. > :51:26.continuum in the Buddhist case. We call it the karma or you move from
:51:27. > :51:30.one life to another. But it's not absolutely essential to believe
:51:31. > :51:36.that. Bud has himself said you don't have to believe it, but what is real
:51:37. > :51:39.is now, the present moment, and you have to live it successfully,
:51:40. > :51:43.morally, ethically and righteously in the present moment. But is it
:51:44. > :51:49.still you if you've lost yourself and you come back? Self not lost. We
:51:50. > :51:53.understand what self is. This is the point. We are not losing anything.
:51:54. > :51:58.Selfishness? Selflessness. We are not losing things. We are not giving
:51:59. > :52:02.things away. We are not emptying the mind. This idea that meditation is
:52:03. > :52:05.about empty minds, people sitting around with emptiness in their
:52:06. > :52:11.minds. It is about understanding what's happening in the mind...
:52:12. > :52:16.There's a whole industry around self help. Go to any Boots counter and
:52:17. > :52:19.will you be able to buy... And the airport, all the books. Most book
:52:20. > :52:24.shops, the mind, body and airport, all the books. Most book
:52:25. > :52:25.section is bigger than the religious section. From a Christian
:52:26. > :52:29.perspective section. From a Christian
:52:30. > :52:33.want to be just aware people, enlightened people, and even nice
:52:34. > :52:36.people. Because where there are injustices we are bid on the
:52:37. > :52:40.challenge and fight against. No matter how much we are in tune with
:52:41. > :52:47.ourselves, essentially Christianity is about sacrifice and giving. It is
:52:48. > :52:53.about challenging and putting one self at risk, but also perhaps
:52:54. > :52:57.making one self unpopular, I know what that's like. David, the you've
:52:58. > :53:02.been here before, a couple of series ago. The gentleman there. We are
:53:03. > :53:06.criticising Buddhism because we think that it is not getting
:53:07. > :53:13.involved within our world. We think we are not getting involved within
:53:14. > :53:17.charities, but at the same time, volunteering is a great thing and
:53:18. > :53:21.getting involved with charity and getting involved with research,
:53:22. > :53:25.creating vaccines, curing diseases, we are doing great things here. But
:53:26. > :53:29.then again if it wasn't for us getting involved we would not have
:53:30. > :53:33.wars, we wouldn't have conflict or half the suffering nowadays. The
:53:34. > :53:38.Buddhist view is more to become one with nature and to become one with
:53:39. > :53:42.the peace of name. It is not getting involved with everyone else's
:53:43. > :53:45.business and this I that you are helping, when in a lot of cases you
:53:46. > :53:53.are really not. APPLAUSE. Gabrielle, there's lot of
:53:54. > :53:57.violence in Myanmar as well, some of that is perpetrated by Buddhists.
:53:58. > :54:01.Bud biggests aren't doing that well against the Muslims in Myanmar.
:54:02. > :54:08.However, I do agree with the whole principle that you need a kind of
:54:09. > :54:11.political maturity and you do need a reflectiveness which maybe would
:54:12. > :54:15.help in terms of issues of war and peace. I shouldn't think Assad's
:54:16. > :54:19.doing touch mindfulness at the moment. Back to conflict resolution.
:54:20. > :54:25.How far is he thinking about the consequences of what he's doing to
:54:26. > :54:36.his people? I'm sure he has remained utterly blind and cut off. The point
:54:37. > :54:40.about, we all need a bit inner reflection. Is that the message of
:54:41. > :54:43.the Buddha? Not only inner reflection but parents beyond that.
:54:44. > :54:48.It is understanding the nature of existence. What is it about mind?
:54:49. > :54:52.What is it that's going on in mind that drives us towards greet, hatred
:54:53. > :54:57.and delusion? What is it about how we hang that process in order to
:54:58. > :55:05.function in the world? There's a worldwide movement of socially
:55:06. > :55:10.engaged buttists socially engaged Buddhists that take a great deal of
:55:11. > :55:17.care with environmentalism. How much on meditation? That doesn't detract
:55:18. > :55:21.from the idea. You are working with the world within the world. You are
:55:22. > :55:28.doing altruism all the time. This idea of giving in Buddhism is the
:55:29. > :55:33.first parameter. The most fundamental idea is giving. It is
:55:34. > :55:38.the first one. Michelle, it is not self absorption but action. Action
:55:39. > :55:45.is directiven by emotions. If you get fired up by something, a leaflet
:55:46. > :55:50.came through my door for Water Aid, the picture of a little boy with a
:55:51. > :55:56.dirty bucket. It made me angry and want to do something about this.
:55:57. > :55:59.Those emotions of sympathy, empathy, anger, at situations that other
:56:00. > :56:04.people less fortunate are in, that makes you get up off your bottom and
:56:05. > :56:09.get out there and do something about it. Buddhists are doing stuff all
:56:10. > :56:15.the time. They can't get away from their own emotion. Good morning to
:56:16. > :56:20.you. Good morning. Where are you on this debate? I think enyou talk
:56:21. > :56:28.about Buddhism you talk about things happening in the world and worldic
:56:29. > :56:38.things. So whenever we talk about self, Buddhism is nonself. What is
:56:39. > :56:45.nonself? Whenever we talk about our body, we talk about four elements.
:56:46. > :56:52.Hard elements, fire elements, fire elements and water elements. We are
:56:53. > :56:59.made up of four elements, so for example, air elements, what right
:57:00. > :57:07.now what I breathe in, air, and breathe out, air. But very short
:57:08. > :57:12.period of time we keep breathe in my body it is present, I call, it is my
:57:13. > :57:18.breathing. So breathing the air belongs to me. So Muslim, Hindu,
:57:19. > :57:24.everybody is interconnected. So what we see, the world, is not myself.
:57:25. > :57:30.Not self at all. We are tiny little dots? Yes. We have to keep others
:57:31. > :57:34.happy to keep myself happy. David Jennings? Of course, what I'm
:57:35. > :57:38.suggesting is just a bit more than that. It is important that we have
:57:39. > :57:42.some understanding of self but it is important that we are able to move
:57:43. > :57:45.beyond that and not be so absorbed just with self but to become
:57:46. > :57:51.completely absorbed with political, social, volunteer issues in the
:57:52. > :57:53.world, even to the point where we make ourselves unpopular in that
:57:54. > :57:58.process of challenging those injustice. It is a question of
:57:59. > :58:03.balance. If everybody got on the street for a big protest or march it
:58:04. > :58:08.wouldn't be practical, because the streets would be jammed, but if
:58:09. > :58:12.everybody went to their rooms to meditate that wouldn't be helpful
:58:13. > :58:16.either, would it? It doesn't seen that we should not protest - we
:58:17. > :58:19.should. We should protest righteously and with the correct
:58:20. > :58:24.understanding. The meditation is not something that we should do all the
:58:25. > :58:29.time. Also meditation is misinterpreted. What meditation is
:58:30. > :58:34.being aware of who you are and being able to live in the present moment.
:58:35. > :58:39.Which we have to do now, because we are you come to the end. Thank you
:58:40. > :58:41.so much. Give yourself a round of applause. That's all from the
:58:42. > :58:46.football capital of Europe. Leicester. We'll see you next week,
:58:47. > :58:53.from Cambridge. Have a good day. APPLAUSE.