:00:00. > :00:29.Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions.
:00:30. > :00:31.Today we're live from Netherhall School in Cambridge.
:00:32. > :00:33.Welcome, everyone, to The Big Questions.
:00:34. > :00:41.The cover-up of decades of abuse of children by priests,
:00:42. > :00:44.teachers and bishops in the Catholic Church
:00:45. > :00:46.across the world has been one of the biggest scandals
:00:47. > :00:53.Last September, when Pope Francis met American victims of child abuse,
:00:54. > :00:57.he told them "God weeps" for their suffering.
:00:58. > :01:00.And he told American bishops that he was overwhelmed with shame
:01:01. > :01:02.that men entrusted with the tender care of children violated these
:01:03. > :01:07.little ones and caused grievous harm.
:01:08. > :01:09.So the Pope set up a special commission to tackle the issue.
:01:10. > :01:12.And he personally appointed Peter Saunders, abuse victim
:01:13. > :01:15.and founder of the British National Association of People Abused
:01:16. > :01:21.But now, following Peter's criticism of some of the commission's
:01:22. > :01:23.decisions and deliberations, the Vatican has announced Peter
:01:24. > :01:35.Is the Catholic Church serious about confronting child abuse?
:01:36. > :01:42.Peter, you got a mention in the speech after the battle was awarded
:01:43. > :01:50.to Spotlight because of your fantastic work in this field, as a
:01:51. > :01:53.survivor yourself, which has been an inspiration to so many people. But
:01:54. > :01:59.you say that the speed at which the Catholic Church is proceeding on
:02:00. > :02:10.this is an outrage? I am a massive fan of Jesus. When Jesus went into
:02:11. > :02:16.the temple 2000 years ago and found it being defiled by various gamblers
:02:17. > :02:23.and people, probably with the collusion of the temple, he did not
:02:24. > :02:27.form a committee, he picked up the tables and through people out of the
:02:28. > :02:35.temple. What many reefs are doing to children is far worse than that. --
:02:36. > :02:39.what many priests. But why is this happening? Why do you believe they
:02:40. > :02:47.are not doing enough? Let me say what I think. I see, every single
:02:48. > :02:53.day, as the founder of this organisation and a current member of
:02:54. > :02:58.the Pope's commission, I'd hear from Catholic voices telling me to keep
:02:59. > :03:01.the fight up because children are still in danger. This is not in any
:03:02. > :03:10.sense a historical problem, it is a live problem as we speak. And I
:03:11. > :03:13.think what epitomises the challenges of the institutional church, not the
:03:14. > :03:18.people of the Church, of whom I am one of millions, the institutional
:03:19. > :03:24.church is headed up by people who I would say, at the very least an
:03:25. > :03:28.helpful on this issue. Let me give you an example of one very senior
:03:29. > :03:34.man in the church, who compared the church to a corporation. He compared
:03:35. > :03:39.it to a transport trucking company. This was George Pell, a cardinal who
:03:40. > :03:43.sits with the Pope's inner circle. He likened the church to a transport
:03:44. > :03:47.company where one of the drivers, and he said this on record, he said
:03:48. > :03:53.one of the drivers, if that person stops and rapes a child or a woman,
:03:54. > :03:57.do you blame the company for the actions of that man? Two points
:03:58. > :04:01.there, yes, you probably do blame the company because they have a duty
:04:02. > :04:04.of care to look after anybody that comes into contact with their
:04:05. > :04:10.employees, that is critical. But more importantly, and this is where
:04:11. > :04:15.the church stands guilty as charged, you do not put that driver onto
:04:16. > :04:21.another route, which is exactly what the church does with its abusing
:04:22. > :04:25.priests. Sarah, nobody disagrees with that but the church has not
:04:26. > :04:31.learned its lesson and Peter has been marginalised because he is
:04:32. > :04:34.speaking truth onto power, isn't he? That would be the impression. Of
:04:35. > :04:38.course we agree with everything he's doing. What is the church doing? You
:04:39. > :04:42.are right, they are totally responsible for the people that
:04:43. > :04:47.represent the church. What is the church doing? It is doing rigorous
:04:48. > :04:50.screening of priests, people who are trying to get into the seminaries.
:04:51. > :04:56.It is much more difficult to get in and much easier to get out. St
:04:57. > :05:01.Luke's Centre is becoming specialised in the mentality of
:05:02. > :05:09.abuse. People are spiralling to the seminary have to doing sourced of
:05:10. > :05:14.questionnaires. Do you think it has gone too far? -- have to do
:05:15. > :05:17.exhaustive questionnaires. I spoke to a lady who said that her son was
:05:18. > :05:21.going to first confession, and there has to be a glass door between the
:05:22. > :05:24.priest and everybody else, there has to be a woman sitting outside the
:05:25. > :05:28.confessional. She said this is over the top and I said, frankly,
:05:29. > :05:33.considering what has happened, nothing could be over the top. And a
:05:34. > :05:39.lot of your friends think it is over the top. I went into my church porch
:05:40. > :05:43.and I said, how easy is it to find a safeguarding officer? We need to do
:05:44. > :05:46.more of this. In my parish church, the first poster you see is
:05:47. > :05:50.safeguarding, and if you cannot get in touch with Jennifer and you have
:05:51. > :05:55.a concern about a child, it says at the bottom, ring the police. 999,
:05:56. > :06:05.ring the police. You are confident there is proper screening? We cannot
:06:06. > :06:08.be complacent. I'm interested, you say that we have safeguarding
:06:09. > :06:11.officers but they are not independently trained. The church is
:06:12. > :06:15.doing it in house and this is the problem. They are not holding
:06:16. > :06:18.themselves to account, they are doing everything themselves. They
:06:19. > :06:22.have proven consistently that they are unable and they do not have the
:06:23. > :06:29.knowledge or expertise to offer robust enough safeguarding that is
:06:30. > :06:32.going to protect our children. I get very confused when people say that
:06:33. > :06:35.actually they are doing everything they possibly can. You are not. I am
:06:36. > :06:39.not seeing the Catholic Church go to the government and say, we are
:06:40. > :06:42.accountable for abuse within our institution and it is awful and we
:06:43. > :06:46.are very sorry and we want to work with other institutions and the
:06:47. > :06:49.government to make sure it does not happen again. Do you still think it
:06:50. > :06:53.is all about protecting the institution rather than the
:06:54. > :06:57.children? They are protecting their reputation and their own priests. We
:06:58. > :07:01.are not having all the information handed over to the police in all
:07:02. > :07:07.cases. We are not having priests cooperate fully and be fully
:07:08. > :07:11.accountable to the public and the police. We're not having lifelong
:07:12. > :07:19.support for the victim, disregarding whether they hold a position in the
:07:20. > :07:21.Catholic Church or not. We are not recognising the adverse childhood
:07:22. > :07:33.experience report of 2012. Is it still being hushed up? Yes. Peter
:07:34. > :07:37.and Christina I will be with you soon. You believe the current Pope
:07:38. > :07:44.is better than Ratzinger? I believe that Pope Francis is only zero
:07:45. > :07:51.tolerance mission. -- on a zero tolerance mission. He sped up the
:07:52. > :07:57.process of the Lay Association of priests. If anyone is unhappy,
:07:58. > :08:01.though, we have not done enough. Is joseph Ratzinger's record on this
:08:02. > :08:06.unquestionable. I think he did more than people think. He speeded up the
:08:07. > :08:11.processors. But the truth is, if people are unhappy, not enough has
:08:12. > :08:14.been done. But the grassroots person in the Catholic Church is under the
:08:15. > :08:18.impression that a huge amount has been done. Our secretary, if she
:08:19. > :08:23.hires a room to somebody from outside the church, she has do a
:08:24. > :08:28.check. It is not about being unhappy. Crimes are still being
:08:29. > :08:32.committed and people are still being abused and raped. If anyone is
:08:33. > :08:37.unhappy about that, they need to be appalled and disgusted. All survivor
:08:38. > :08:40.organisations have walked out of talks with the Catholic Church in
:08:41. > :08:48.the UK to date. They are not doing their job. Can I speak as a
:08:49. > :08:51.Commissioner? Somebody with the considered opinion, who understands
:08:52. > :09:00.everything you are saying, Christina Dorney. There are a lot of questions
:09:01. > :09:09.being asked of jobs Ratzinger, especially with the congregation
:09:10. > :09:16.doctrine of the Faith. His own brother George Ratzinger, was head
:09:17. > :09:19.of the choir when a lot of people were being abused. He, of course,
:09:20. > :09:25.knows nothing about it and was completely innocent, but there is
:09:26. > :09:29.thought of, here we go again. So much suspicion cast upon the church
:09:30. > :09:36.and you understand that, I know. Absolutely. If my was touched by a
:09:37. > :09:43.grown-up, especially one in such a trusted role as a priest, I cannot
:09:44. > :09:47.be responsible for what I would do. However, I think that there is a
:09:48. > :09:54.huge presumption of innocence that we have to take into account.
:09:55. > :10:00.Although I can in no way condone what has happened, I can understand
:10:01. > :10:04.that when you were talking about process, what we have to do is make
:10:05. > :10:12.sure that those who stand accused, whether they are celibate priests or
:10:13. > :10:16.whoever they are, they are absolutely, without question, guilty
:10:17. > :10:25.as charged. So I can understand process, I can understand a slow
:10:26. > :10:34.process, but what we cannot accept from our church is the cover-up. We
:10:35. > :10:38.cannot accept... Is still a cover-up? The word on the street,
:10:39. > :10:42.and I understand that everyone is bending over backwards in your
:10:43. > :10:46.parish, but the word on the street is that bishops still turn a deaf
:10:47. > :10:52.ear, a blind eye, and are prepared to move guilty parish priests. And
:10:53. > :11:00.that has to stop. Why hasn't exchanged? -- and why hasn't that
:11:01. > :11:05.changed. This is an absolute outrage. In normal catholic on the
:11:06. > :11:07.street, we are but we'll do it at this institutional resistance.
:11:08. > :11:12.Although we have the structures in place, all very well, and although
:11:13. > :11:16.priests are willing to take the rap when they are innocent, it is better
:11:17. > :11:22.that they take the rap that children get harmed. But it seems that there
:11:23. > :11:25.needs to be a culture shift. Parents will not come forward because they
:11:26. > :11:28.want to protect the church and I tell them, protect your children.
:11:29. > :11:35.Ordinary Catholics are appalled and disgusted. Speaking as the Pope's
:11:36. > :11:40.Commissioner, I have to say with great sadness, Nicky, that I do not
:11:41. > :11:44.believe that we have zero tolerance, which is what the Pope said must
:11:45. > :11:50.happen. I can give you a number of examples very briefly. Whilst I was
:11:51. > :11:54.in Rome a few weeks ago, it was reported to the commission, and
:11:55. > :11:58.although we're not supposed to deal with individual cases, when you hear
:11:59. > :12:08.what I'm to say, you will see the reason for my anger. One of our
:12:09. > :12:11.commission members was told by two visiting a catholic priests, two
:12:12. > :12:13.good priests who had gone to their bishop because they had discovered
:12:14. > :12:19.that one of their colleagues in their parish was abusing the
:12:20. > :12:24.children, was a child rapist, let's name it as it is. They went to their
:12:25. > :12:30.bishop, not years ago, weeks ago, they went to the bishop and told
:12:31. > :12:33.them what this man was doing. The bishop said they must do nothing and
:12:34. > :12:39.remain silent. They then went to the police in the local area to report
:12:40. > :12:44.this. This is in Italy. They went to the police and the police said, the
:12:45. > :12:48.first question was, and you spoken to your Bishop? Those children are
:12:49. > :12:54.still being raped and abused by this man and nothing is being done. Do
:12:55. > :12:58.you think this is happening in a lot of places all over the world. Let me
:12:59. > :13:05.finish. I said to the commission member, my colleague, who happens to
:13:06. > :13:10.be a Jesuit priest. I said, what be done with this information? And his
:13:11. > :13:14.words were, congregation for the doctrine of the Faith. We know that
:13:15. > :13:19.it will join a file of thousands to be examined by clerics who will
:13:20. > :13:23.inevitably do probably nothing while those children are still being
:13:24. > :13:29.abused. That cannot carry on. The comeback 2-0, -- to come back to
:13:30. > :13:36.zero tolerance and what has been happening, the Pope made an inept
:13:37. > :13:44.remark a few days ago when, ask about abusing clergy, and the
:13:45. > :13:47.bishops that protect them or move them about, the Pope said they
:13:48. > :13:52.should resign. That is appalling because if you or I were accused and
:13:53. > :13:56.found guilty, or credibly accused, of moving child rapists from one
:13:57. > :14:00.place to another, I do not think it would be a matter of resignation, it
:14:01. > :14:03.would be a matter of dismissal and being handed over to the police.
:14:04. > :14:14.APPLAUSE. What Pope Francis said was the best
:14:15. > :14:21.thing they could do is resign, not that's the only thing that would
:14:22. > :14:27.happen. We've had a very unbalanced discussion here about what the
:14:28. > :14:31.Church is doing. A book has come out by an agnostic Chicago attorney who
:14:32. > :14:35.has made millions out of suing the Church for these abuse claims. He
:14:36. > :14:41.said the most important thing to protect children is to act swiftly
:14:42. > :14:46.when the abuse happens. He says the institution has been doing more, the
:14:47. > :14:51.Catholic Church, when you look at what the champion has done... If
:14:52. > :14:56.there had not been lawyers like that, if there hadn't been brave
:14:57. > :15:00.survivors talks investigations, any of this and people releasing this
:15:01. > :15:03.information and going to the press and saying, my goodness me, this is
:15:04. > :15:09.happening, this is awful, something should be done, do you think of its
:15:10. > :15:16.own volition the Catholic Church would have moved to clean this up?
:15:17. > :15:21.Not as swiftly, no. As a Catholic I'm glad this has happened. I'm glad
:15:22. > :15:26.that the film Spotlight, that lawyers have uncovered this. What is
:15:27. > :15:31.it about the Church? Because there were Bishops and priests who wanted
:15:32. > :15:37.to cover up, to save the image of the Church and to save their own
:15:38. > :15:43.next, and that's disgusting. Anyone who has done that deserves to be
:15:44. > :15:47.punished by the law. Justice for the survivors of abuse does not justify
:15:48. > :15:52.injust noise the truth not only of what the Church has done but the
:15:53. > :15:58.Church in general. What's true in England and America isn't true in
:15:59. > :16:04.Japan and Argentina. Over 1 billion people and say what's that this done
:16:05. > :16:08.here, what is the Vatican doing to make sure that best case practices
:16:09. > :16:14.are across the board? The Church has done a huge amount to make sure that
:16:15. > :16:18.has happened. Peter, we are in no way questioning the beauty, the
:16:19. > :16:27.holiness of the Church globally. But we are saying that when it comes to
:16:28. > :16:31.this most heinous crime, this most disgusting crime, the Church has
:16:32. > :16:38.been complicit up to a point... APPLAUSE. There've been Bishops
:16:39. > :16:46.who've and priests who have, you can't say the Church as a whole. The
:16:47. > :16:56.hierarchy. But not all elements of the hierarchy. That's a ridiculous
:16:57. > :16:59.thing to say. Was there an institutional mindset. It needs to
:17:00. > :17:04.change. You had your arm up earlier. Any other comments and then I want
:17:05. > :17:08.to raise another issue, raised on this programme three weeks ago, the
:17:09. > :17:12.confessional, which really did get a lot of debate going on social media.
:17:13. > :17:17.What would you like to say. Good morning. We've spoken a lot about
:17:18. > :17:21.safeguarding and preventive measure was the glass walls, but if the
:17:22. > :17:27.Vatican is that serious and the Catholic Church are that serious
:17:28. > :17:31.about preventing child abuse, why in recent training guidelines that have
:17:32. > :17:34.been issued all Bishops say it is not necessarily the Bishops'
:17:35. > :17:41.obligation to report that to the authorities? And that is the
:17:42. > :17:48.responsibility of the parent, and we have parents... That was a
:17:49. > :17:54.misreporting and the Pope stated straight afterwards the fact that
:17:55. > :17:59.they are obliged. That was in a conference. Are you saying it is
:18:00. > :18:04.mandatory for all Bishops to report known abuse? That's what the Pope is
:18:05. > :18:08.asking for. But that's not in place right now. The Church seems the
:18:09. > :18:11.think it is above the law. If we were talking about the abuse in,
:18:12. > :18:16.say, the entertainment industry, everybody is up in arms about it,
:18:17. > :18:20.saying everyone must go to the police, but the Church, police and
:18:21. > :18:27.Bishops don't need to go. I don't think the BBC came rushing forward
:18:28. > :18:32.to admit its problems ahead of time. We are talking about thousands, not
:18:33. > :18:34.Jimmy Savile and Stuart Hall. We are talking about thousands of priests
:18:35. > :18:38.across the world and thousands of children that have been abused, with
:18:39. > :18:43.respect. The confessional. Allow me to raise the seal of the
:18:44. > :18:50.confessional. Peter, in what, this is what people who are non-Catholics
:18:51. > :18:58.just do not understand. In what moral universe is it in anyway right
:18:59. > :19:01.for example where there to be a priest confessing to another priest
:19:02. > :19:05.and he says look, I have been abusing children, I have been raping
:19:06. > :19:11.children, and I'm out of control, I don't know what to do about this.
:19:12. > :19:17.For that priest who has taken the confession not to go to the police
:19:18. > :19:21.straight away? What moral planet are you on? Well, the reason for that, I
:19:22. > :19:26.totally understand. I really do understand. If I were a non-Catholic
:19:27. > :19:30.I would find that difficult to understand. It is not funny is it?
:19:31. > :19:34.It is not funny. The only way you understand it is if you understand
:19:35. > :19:37.the seriousness we take of the confessional itself. That's
:19:38. > :19:42.difficult if you are not a Catholic. No matter what you confess to a
:19:43. > :19:45.priest, he can never ever tell anyone else. Never. And that is a
:19:46. > :19:49.hugely important part of our religion. What he would say however
:19:50. > :19:59.to someone engaging in abuse is repent. If you are repenting, that
:20:00. > :20:03.means got to the police. To repent means turning away completely... And
:20:04. > :20:08.God's forgiveness. And go and do justice, so going to the police. You
:20:09. > :20:12.need forgiveness of the children you've raped surely? It is an
:20:13. > :20:14.important part of your belief and it is a disgusting part of your
:20:15. > :20:21.religion... APPLAUSE. You can bleat all you like
:20:22. > :20:25.about the beauty and the glory of the Church and all that, but we've
:20:26. > :20:29.had rapists walking around in cassocks and it is going to take
:20:30. > :20:33.many years for that to stop happening. The other thing I will
:20:34. > :20:38.say is in some ways it doesn't surprise me. I'm surprised that you
:20:39. > :20:43.are surpriseden about this, the Catholic Church has a great deal of
:20:44. > :20:47.form in dealing with things not in the interests of justice but
:20:48. > :20:53.ignorance and superstition. It took 350 years for them to admit that
:20:54. > :20:58.Galileo was right. You might say it was because they wanted to be sure,
:20:59. > :21:04.but the rest of the world was sure before that. Heavy been obstructing
:21:05. > :21:09.their complicity in Damascus and Rwanda. I'm surprised their
:21:10. > :21:14.surprised about that. Sarah? Can ky clarify the point about confession,
:21:15. > :21:18.which is extremely important. Part of confession is restitution. A
:21:19. > :21:23.confession box isn't to go in, dump your crimes and walk away. You are
:21:24. > :21:26.not absolved if you are not sorry and if you don't make restitution.
:21:27. > :21:30.People misunderstand confession themselves. If you don't make it...
:21:31. > :21:36.So you have to be sorry? No, you have to make restitution. If you
:21:37. > :21:40.walk out of the confessional and you don't make restitution, your
:21:41. > :21:45.absolution is null and invalid. Surely restitution means going to
:21:46. > :21:53.the police? Surely, a priest could say in confession, this is what you
:21:54. > :21:57.need to do to do your restitution. People need to understand why they
:21:58. > :22:02.go to confession. Are you saying that you are above the law? Law? If
:22:03. > :22:06.you are saying it is about... You have misunderstood what I said,
:22:07. > :22:11.Lewisy. You do have to make restitution or you are not forgiven.
:22:12. > :22:14.I'm not interested in who is forgiven, but whether child rapists
:22:15. > :22:20.are allowed to carry on walking around in the Church and whether
:22:21. > :22:23.they are told they must go to the police.
:22:24. > :22:27.APPLAUSE That is exactly what's happening right now. And you are
:22:28. > :22:32.shaking your head and talking in the past tense. This is happening today.
:22:33. > :22:36.We know this. Peter, last word. The worst possible thing worst possible
:22:37. > :22:41.thing is if innocent thing - it is not the worst thing of course, but
:22:42. > :22:44.go on. If you have evidence, you should go to the police. Anyone
:22:45. > :22:48.should go to the police and tell the Church as well. You are saying
:22:49. > :22:52.priests don't need to do that. We are not saying that, absolutely not
:22:53. > :22:55.saying that. Are you worried about innocent people being dragged into
:22:56. > :23:02.this because of a climate of accusation? No, I spoke to a priest
:23:03. > :23:07.who had been maliciously accused. He had been 18 months out of being able
:23:08. > :23:12.to administer to people I said look, this is what Jesus goes through. It
:23:13. > :23:18.is much better that you get pain for two years than children be abused
:23:19. > :23:22.and he said yes, I'm here to be like Jesus. Why are you laughing
:23:23. > :23:28.afterive? I'm happy that you are doing what you are doing, please
:23:29. > :23:33.carry on. Why do you find that uncon shonable. I was laughing because I'm
:23:34. > :23:37.tiring of this stream of superstition and nonsense used to
:23:38. > :23:44.paper over genuine suffering. APPLAUSE. I think we would benefit
:23:45. > :23:51.from a period of silence on your part while we listen to these brave
:23:52. > :23:56.people, for whom I have a great deal of sympathy. And I think a period of
:23:57. > :24:01.silence on your part. Gosh! We have to move on. Thank you all so much.
:24:02. > :24:07.Thank you for your heart-felt comments and your explanations for
:24:08. > :24:11.non-Catholic ears. It is very much appreciated Cristina, Peter and
:24:12. > :24:14.Sarah and thank you as ever for your bravery Lucy and Peter.
:24:15. > :24:16.If you have something to say about that debate,
:24:17. > :24:18.log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions, where you'll find links to join
:24:19. > :24:22.We're also debating live this morning from Cambridge: Do
:24:23. > :24:25.we all have a duty to look after our elderly relatives?
:24:26. > :24:33.So get tweeting or emailing on those topics now or send us any other
:24:34. > :24:40.ideas or thoughts you may have about the programme.
:24:41. > :24:43.This week it was reported that a number of hospitals are imposing
:24:44. > :24:44.eviction notices on bed-blocking elderly patients.
:24:45. > :24:47.Their relatives had failed to find a suitable care home for them
:24:48. > :24:54.The patients could face legal proceedings if they don't leave
:24:55. > :24:57.hospital within three weeks of being declared medically fit.
:24:58. > :25:01.And the biggest bed-blocking problems are in those parts
:25:02. > :25:04.of the country where care home costs are high ? like Oxfordshire,
:25:05. > :25:07.where average weekly nursing home fees are around ?1,000 a week.
:25:08. > :25:12.But in days past, families would have taken their frail
:25:13. > :25:15.and ageing parents into their own homes or arranged to look
:25:16. > :25:21.So, do we all have a duty to look after our elderly relatives?
:25:22. > :25:29.Lynne Burnham, duty is a strong word but I know you feel that we have
:25:30. > :25:35.kind of fallen behind other cultures, don't you? Yes. We have.
:25:36. > :25:42.But I think it's a worldwide phenomena. I don't think it's just a
:25:43. > :25:49.phenomena particularly to the UK. It is very sad that we live in a
:25:50. > :25:55.society where care per se is not valued. As mothers at home matter
:25:56. > :25:59.campaign constantly to get the Government to appreciate that care
:26:00. > :26:52.matters. Because somebody has to do that care.
:26:53. > :26:58.Inevitably, with more and more young children being placed in childcare
:26:59. > :27:03.from an earlier age, they are not going to grow up knowing what
:27:04. > :27:07.familial care is like, because they are not going to have the appearance
:27:08. > :27:11.there, looking after them, nurturing them and bringing them up. Further
:27:12. > :27:14.down the line, we are surely not going to see that when their parents
:27:15. > :27:20.get a little bit older, they are going to struggle to value the care
:27:21. > :27:24.that they will need? But what about now? The whole attitude of looking
:27:25. > :27:33.after our parents, let me come to you, Steve. When you hear this,
:27:34. > :27:38.moral duty, that we have lost our moral duty to our parents, how do
:27:39. > :27:42.you react? It is a sign of our civilised society, how we look after
:27:43. > :27:46.our older people. We all have a duty to do so, individually and
:27:47. > :27:50.collectively. Many people cannot look after their elderly parents
:27:51. > :27:53.because of their work responsibilities, perhaps because
:27:54. > :27:57.they do not live anywhere near their parents, or because their parents
:27:58. > :28:01.need more care. They need a care home place or they need care in
:28:02. > :28:06.their own home. We have a crisis of care in this country. There are 7
:28:07. > :28:11.million people providing family care and they are doing it very well.
:28:12. > :28:15.They do not get much support as unpaid carers. They need more help
:28:16. > :28:18.with advice and information, benefits and allowances. Because the
:28:19. > :28:23.world has changed. More people are trying to balance work and family
:28:24. > :28:28.care. We need a better care system, and that is the big problem in
:28:29. > :28:34.Britain today. Underfunding of care, a poor quality of home care services
:28:35. > :28:39.and care homes, and we need tougher regulations. Earlier on, you were
:28:40. > :28:42.saying to me that there is an element of sacrifice that we have
:28:43. > :28:49.lost. What do you mean by that? Absolutely. There is a circle of
:28:50. > :28:59.life and there should be time for every aspect of care, work, play, we
:29:00. > :29:02.are working for much longer and should be time. The government
:29:03. > :29:06.should accept that people need to step back from the workplace at a
:29:07. > :29:11.given period because they have these caring responsibilities and that is
:29:12. > :29:15.the same for young children, just as it is for elderly folk. This is what
:29:16. > :29:25.makes us human. Care defines us. As a race, as a human being. I think it
:29:26. > :29:32.is beautifully put. I am the director of the Centre for care
:29:33. > :29:36.values, and one of the few values that are uncontested, whether we are
:29:37. > :29:45.Muslim, atheist or Christian, is altruism. Self-sacrifice, thinking
:29:46. > :29:49.about others first. And it is really important to learn that on an
:29:50. > :29:53.intergenerational level. We need to care for the elderly. One of the
:29:54. > :29:58.saddest thing is, if you go into a ward, and I have spent a lot of time
:29:59. > :30:03.looking after my father and mother, and I have seen that everybody
:30:04. > :30:08.else's bed is without a visitor. Nobody there at all. And these
:30:09. > :30:13.elderly fathers and mothers and aunts and uncles, they are not being
:30:14. > :30:19.taken care of. It was interesting when Nicky said, do policies drive
:30:20. > :30:23.the social attitudes, because in Singapore, where the demographics
:30:24. > :30:30.show a greater proportion of the public is now elderly, they have put
:30:31. > :30:35.in a policy that gives you 20,000 Singapore dollars if you can argue
:30:36. > :30:40.that by buying the particular house you want to buy, you will be either
:30:41. > :30:45.living with your elderly parents or near your elderly parents. And that
:30:46. > :30:54.is the kind of imaginative response to this kind of care crisis that we
:30:55. > :31:02.could easily adopt ourselves. Alan, it is about caring for people, and
:31:03. > :31:07.thinking ahead. It is about how we hope our children care for us. --
:31:08. > :31:14.Helen. I'm sure you see examples where people are just plonked in a
:31:15. > :31:20.home and never visited and they may be few and far between but you must
:31:21. > :31:26.see these cases sometimes. We touched on the society case. There
:31:27. > :31:30.is a crisis in care and there is good news, we are living longer but
:31:31. > :31:33.longer in ill health. We have a false choice in terms of choosing
:31:34. > :31:38.where we want to live and that might not be the most suitable in terms of
:31:39. > :31:42.when we are incapable of looking after ourselves. We have of choice
:31:43. > :31:44.about work and not living near relatives. I think there are huge
:31:45. > :31:52.issues that have been touched upon but I do not think it is a duty for
:31:53. > :31:56.unpaid, informal family carers to have to care. And I tell you why
:31:57. > :32:01.that is. It is a humanitarian issue, it is humanity to want to do that.
:32:02. > :32:06.There are 7 billion people who care for somebody else but there is a lot
:32:07. > :32:11.of evidence that it is damaging, physically, emotionally and
:32:12. > :32:17.financially. For carers. Disproportionately women as well.
:32:18. > :32:22.That is an interesting point. Poor in ten carers are men but they tend
:32:23. > :32:25.to be older men, so it is not representative across age groups.
:32:26. > :32:27.And they are less likely to come forward for help and the help they
:32:28. > :32:32.need is different for women because they see it as their duty. It is
:32:33. > :32:38.wrapped up in a sense of guilt and failure to ask for help. There was a
:32:39. > :32:42.law that came in in 2015 gave unpaid, informal family carers new
:32:43. > :32:47.rights, to be treated the same as somebody with a disability, and so
:32:48. > :32:53.that is the opportunity to be asked, argue willing to care? And the
:32:54. > :32:55.reason that is important, most people are willing to care but they
:32:56. > :32:59.do not know how difficult and damaging it is. And there is
:33:00. > :33:05.opportunity for help there. I think I am part of a commission of carers,
:33:06. > :33:09.and we are looking at a new strategy that will look at Singapore and
:33:10. > :33:14.around the world, and see how we incentivise change. Because we
:33:15. > :33:24.cannot go on as we are now. People think there is a pathway. What about
:33:25. > :33:29.other cultures. In comparison to this one, they are impoverished, and
:33:30. > :33:33.parents will be looked after always with huge financial sacrifice by
:33:34. > :33:37.their children in situ. Just because it is the right thing to do, they
:33:38. > :33:43.believe that is part of the cycle of family life. I do some work in
:33:44. > :33:48.Nepal, and we see multi-generational families, but they largely work in
:33:49. > :33:55.rural economies, and it is quite a different situation. You had an
:33:56. > :34:06.upbringing, a Muslim upbringing, is this a very different attitude in to
:34:07. > :34:10.Muslim communities? -- a different attitude to Muslim communities. It
:34:11. > :34:14.is land generally hates women more than the Catholic Church does. But
:34:15. > :34:18.the connection with one's mother, Islam has a different attitude. Your
:34:19. > :34:22.mother is someone you respect more than you even your own father. The
:34:23. > :34:25.person you respect most in your life. And of course that is not just
:34:26. > :34:32.Islam, that is true especially in Chinese religions. One thing I would
:34:33. > :34:37.say is that these moral codes evolved at a time when the natural
:34:38. > :34:40.life span was 70 years. Now it is much greater than 70 years, and the
:34:41. > :34:44.costs associated with this sort of duty, if you want to call it that,
:34:45. > :34:48.and I agree that it is not an absolute duty, is much greater. So
:34:49. > :34:55.the question we should be asking is how one can balance certain types of
:34:56. > :35:01.moral obligation toward looking after elders, and financial
:35:02. > :35:07.pressures, having to look after one's children, and other aspects of
:35:08. > :35:09.one's life. This is a decision that individuals need to make themselves.
:35:10. > :35:18.The government should not make it for anyone. Before I hear from you,
:35:19. > :35:24.let's get this gentleman and a couple of other audience comments.
:35:25. > :35:29.Good morning. First of all, I think we have to realise that we are under
:35:30. > :35:33.severe financial pressure. The government does not have money to
:35:34. > :35:44.spend on anything. They are under resourced. There is a debate. And I
:35:45. > :35:47.think it is like speaking to someone who argues that the government
:35:48. > :35:51.should put in more money or subsidise health care for the
:35:52. > :35:54.elderly, and the worst thing is privatising this care of which is
:35:55. > :36:01.what is happening at the moment. One thing you have to understand, during
:36:02. > :36:06.this crisis, people do not have time for their families or their
:36:07. > :36:09.children. And then you add them to take care of elderly parents, which
:36:10. > :36:18.is a big challenge under these circumstances. The only thing which
:36:19. > :36:25.can be done to tackle this problem is to spend more on social services,
:36:26. > :36:30.and not bankers and big businesses. Government money is going to those
:36:31. > :36:37.things, and not on these services. You know how to get a round of
:36:38. > :36:42.applause! You had your hand up. I am here with olives and we know each
:36:43. > :36:49.other because we met at a tea party. I am a volunteer who contacts the
:36:50. > :36:55.elderly. The thing that comes through with Olive is that this
:36:56. > :36:59.debate happens without the views of all the people. A lot of older
:37:00. > :37:05.people do not want to be looked at by their families. -- looked after.
:37:06. > :37:09.You are very proud of your children for having jobs and you look after
:37:10. > :37:15.yourself as much as you can. Olive, if you want to speak to us, it would
:37:16. > :37:19.be good to hear from you. She is having trouble hearing. Say what you
:37:20. > :37:25.want to say. Well, I can see both sides of the problem. I have to be
:37:26. > :37:31.responsible -- I had to be responsible to my mother until she
:37:32. > :37:35.was 98. It affects the children. Little titbits are still coming out.
:37:36. > :37:41.She always wanted to go first. I am 84 now, so I might have a problem
:37:42. > :37:46.with what happens to me. But as far as I can do it, I am being
:37:47. > :37:49.independent. I have put a lot of facilities in the house and the
:37:50. > :37:57.house is still the home for the children because they both work in
:37:58. > :38:02.Brussels. They keep coming over and they keep their eye on me. But if
:38:03. > :38:08.push comes to shove, I know I should go and stay with one of them. But as
:38:09. > :38:17.long as I can be on my own, and be independent, that is how I want to
:38:18. > :38:22.be. I was going to say, that really
:38:23. > :38:31.should be the last word. I do so much. A quick thought, Sarah? I
:38:32. > :38:35.always wanted to look after my mum. My dad died a year ago, but I have
:38:36. > :38:41.to say, people spoke to me and said, your mother, she is actually really
:38:42. > :38:45.happy in her care home, and sometimes it is professional people
:38:46. > :38:50.who do a really great job looking after her. I get to see her more
:38:51. > :38:56.frequently and so does my sister. I live in one room and my sister lives
:38:57. > :38:59.on the third floor of a council flat. A lot of women are unmarried
:39:00. > :39:04.and have no money. We need to invest in care homes. The carers are like
:39:05. > :39:07.angels and we are very blessed. Professional carers do a fantastic
:39:08. > :39:14.job and my mother gets a variety of care, and a diverse amount of care.
:39:15. > :39:17.She is learning about iPads, all sorts of stuff. And we have the
:39:18. > :39:23.situation of bed blocking in some of the wealthier parts of the country
:39:24. > :39:26.because people worry about the inheritance tax thresholds and they
:39:27. > :39:32.are sitting on a windfall and they are loath to have any of that money
:39:33. > :39:35.trouble away. There are loads of layers of complicity. A final
:39:36. > :39:42.message, do we have to look in our hearts? We do. But we also have to
:39:43. > :39:45.as the government to change their way of thinking on this. Because the
:39:46. > :39:54.office for National statistics issued a report in 2010 where they
:39:55. > :40:03.valued the unpaid childcare, care by the family in the home, at ?343
:40:04. > :40:13.billion. That was the value that the office for National statistics have
:40:14. > :40:18.put to it. That is 23% of GDP. What would happen if you added in the
:40:19. > :40:23.care that parents and families provide for elderly relatives? We
:40:24. > :40:27.save the government a huge amounts of money. That needs to be
:40:28. > :40:36.understood and we need to get respect back for people who do care?
:40:37. > :40:37.All hail the carers. They do the most fantastic job.
:40:38. > :40:39.You can join in all this morning's debates by logging
:40:40. > :40:41.on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions then following the link
:40:42. > :40:49.Or you can tweet using the hashtag bbctbq.
:40:50. > :40:51.Tell us what you think about our last Big Question too:
:40:52. > :40:56.And if you'd like to be in the audience at a future
:40:57. > :40:57.programme, email audiencetbq@mentorn.tv.
:40:58. > :41:00.We're in Newcastle upon Tyne next week, Cardiff on 6th March,
:41:01. > :41:10.The Church of England Synod received some distressing news this week.
:41:11. > :41:14.Attendance at its churches is set to fall for the next 30 years,
:41:15. > :41:18.with today's figure of 18 people per 1,000 regularly going to church
:41:19. > :41:24.dropping to just 10 per 1,000 by 2046.
:41:25. > :41:28.Today an 81-year-old is eight times more likely to attend church
:41:29. > :41:33.A new book, Battling the Gods, published here in Cambridge this
:41:34. > :41:35.week, challenges the assumption that humanity is naturally predisposed
:41:36. > :41:38.to believe in gods, and describes how atheism existed in the most
:41:39. > :41:40.ancient of classical societies long before Christianity did.
:41:41. > :42:01.We are going the speak to the author of that book in a minute, but let's
:42:02. > :42:04.start with Dr Elaine Storkey, theologian and philosopher. Lovely
:42:05. > :42:13.to have you here this morning. Thank you. Virgin births, people coming
:42:14. > :42:22.back from the tomb, corpses coming out of the graves, talking donkeys,
:42:23. > :42:28.Peter 2: 16. How can it be a rational choice? The whole idea that
:42:29. > :42:35.atheism is a rational choice, the topic of this discussion, my answer
:42:36. > :42:39.is no it is not a rational choice. You've started talking donkeys as a
:42:40. > :42:44.rational choice, which I hadn't come to debate. It is fair to turn it
:42:45. > :42:49.around, because we are talking about which is the rational choice. People
:42:50. > :42:57.might question that, talking donkeys on the list. But we are talking
:42:58. > :43:01.about atheism, is it the rational choice, so let's stick with the
:43:02. > :43:05.topic we've come to debate. No, sorry, which is the rational choice,
:43:06. > :43:12.which is the irrational choice? It is an absolutely fair area. No, the
:43:13. > :43:18.which is the wrong question, as though there were only two options
:43:19. > :43:21.here.. Atheism or talking donkeys. That's what I'm rejecting
:43:22. > :43:26.completely, because it is banal. Before we fall out completely...
:43:27. > :43:34.We'll have a cup of tea later. I'll buy you lunch! The reason I
:43:35. > :43:40.mentioned talking donkeys, which all atheists find mind-blowing... But
:43:41. > :43:45.talking donkeys is also daft. That's the prima facie thing that people
:43:46. > :43:51.think about it and they move on the other theology, and that's
:43:52. > :43:55.understandable and fair enough. But doesn't faith transcend religion?
:43:56. > :44:00.That's not an ir religious thing to safe. Faith is greater than reason,
:44:01. > :44:04.that's the argument isn't it? No, words get their meaning from the
:44:05. > :44:10.system of which they are a part. So we can construct meanings of reason
:44:11. > :44:12.that are actually buying into certain systems have certain
:44:13. > :44:18.presuppositions loaded into them. You can have reason that starts from
:44:19. > :44:23.the assumption that there is no God. Once you've taken that as your
:44:24. > :44:28.point, so that reason is gaining knowledge from our five senses or
:44:29. > :44:34.understanding what we gain from these experiences, it is a very
:44:35. > :44:39.narrow view of reasoning. By the time you've got down that path, you
:44:40. > :44:45.don't have time for God. Excuse me, Elaine... No, I'm not excusing you,
:44:46. > :44:50.because I haven't finished yet. She's in good form, Arif. Careful
:44:51. > :44:53.how you go on this! Reason isn't about starting out with a belief
:44:54. > :44:58.that there is no God. I haven't finished yesterday. You don't
:44:59. > :45:03.believe something if there isn't any evidence of it. The evidence is
:45:04. > :45:07.based on the assumption that you are already putting in to the programme.
:45:08. > :45:11.When making a programme on a computer you are programming things
:45:12. > :45:16.in and you know at the end of it will get information out of it.
:45:17. > :45:20.There isn't one universal objective view of reason that the entire human
:45:21. > :45:24.race and everyone in the world agrees with. People will have
:45:25. > :45:31.different views of reason. Where will I go for my understanding of
:45:32. > :45:35.whether atheism is rational... Extraordinary claims require
:45:36. > :45:43.extraordinary evidence? Do I take some leading sciences, a Professor
:45:44. > :45:47.Of physics at Oxford University, Professor McLeish at Durham
:45:48. > :45:57.University, or the head of the genome project. They say
:45:58. > :46:03.Christianity is where we are. Olive is dying to come in. Tim, you are a
:46:04. > :46:08.former vicar. I agree with Elaine, but we are starting in the wrong
:46:09. > :46:13.place. It seems to me that reason isn't why people make religious
:46:14. > :46:16.choices. You become part of a religion through growing up, through
:46:17. > :46:21.all sorts of things. It is actually quite difficult, as I know from my
:46:22. > :46:27.own experience, to walk away from that. But you are an atheist but a
:46:28. > :46:34.kou vicar. that. But you are an atheist but a
:46:35. > :46:39.kou But a Church of England vicar. Because life would possibly be more
:46:40. > :46:46.comfortable if I had, but I couldn't do it. Tim, via ex-vicars and
:46:47. > :46:52.talking donkeys and Elaine's superb exposition of different types of
:46:53. > :46:58.religion. Let's talk about the ancient atheists. This is before
:46:59. > :47:03.Elaine, before Einstein, before Darwin, before Galileo. I think he
:47:04. > :47:12.was mentioned earlier on, before Jesus. Where did these ancient
:47:13. > :47:22.atheists get the intellectual weaponry for? For this? It is just
:47:23. > :47:29.as normal a future of life as religious belief. Atheism is
:47:30. > :47:33.certainly the intellectual choice. Atheism isn't a belief about the
:47:34. > :47:37.world, it is a methodology that says that we don't start from a position
:47:38. > :47:43.of dogma, we start from evidence, and to the best of our abilities,
:47:44. > :47:47.and the human brain is fallible, we go from evidence to conclusion, and
:47:48. > :47:52.we are led by that evidence. I might respectfully say that the discussion
:47:53. > :47:56.earlier about the Catholic Church's own investigation into child abuse
:47:57. > :48:02.might have been bettereded if they had followed that methodology. So I
:48:03. > :48:06.would say it is intellectually critical but like Elaine I'm rather
:48:07. > :48:11.suspicious of the word rational, which seems to plug us into a story
:48:12. > :48:17.of human progress away from primitive societies that don't get
:48:18. > :48:22.things via the enlightenment and so forth, with the western modernity.
:48:23. > :48:29.What about the early atheists, what were their views on first cause? It
:48:30. > :48:35.know it was a time of thunderbolt and rainbow, God did this or that.
:48:36. > :48:40.Were they not bound up in notions of creation? If you think about where
:48:41. > :48:44.fault lines form between the religious and the atheistic, they do
:48:45. > :48:51.change over time, and creation is one of these things that is very big
:48:52. > :48:57.in the 20th and 21st searchry, I'm not expert in the history of these
:48:58. > :49:04.debates, but it wasn't a fault line or classical antiquity. They were
:49:05. > :49:12.keen to find alternative explanations to phenomena.
:49:13. > :49:17.Thunderbolt was the weapon of Zeuss, so it was a key weapon in trying to
:49:18. > :49:22.unpick conventional ideas of theism. Arif, do you think that belief is
:49:23. > :49:28.explainable in terms of natural selection? And evolution, if we have
:49:29. > :49:32.reached a certain cognitive level you can explain the thunder bolts
:49:33. > :49:40.and the rainbows and see significance in things. That's
:49:41. > :49:45.right. Obviously there are theories concerning how religious beliefs
:49:46. > :49:48.came to be in the first place and religious belief may have a natural
:49:49. > :49:55.basis. This is a their riff which goes back at least to David Hulme.
:49:56. > :50:02.People have a natural tendency and there is an evolutional advantage to
:50:03. > :50:09.be incredulous about the phenomena that you observe. So the benefits of
:50:10. > :50:14.being slightly too credulous that the thing you see is a snake rather
:50:15. > :50:18.than a stone are clear. What's the advantage? The advantage is that you
:50:19. > :50:24.run away more often than you need to. Survival. Yes. Surely as well it
:50:25. > :50:29.is being able to be the guy that can explain stuff. See that thunder?
:50:30. > :50:34.Yes, that's right. And then you have more successful breeding. I don't
:50:35. > :50:46.know whether we can chronologically chop it up and say this comes then,
:50:47. > :50:57.but humanity has always been a big bag of Harib organisation, a bag of
:50:58. > :51:04.Haribo, a mix of sweets. There is just no evidence that the universe
:51:05. > :51:10.was made by a man with magic powers or somebody came back from the dead,
:51:11. > :51:15.let alone the talking dorngies or snakes. But that's symbolic, God is
:51:16. > :51:22.outside space and time. You are dragging God into the wrong place.
:51:23. > :51:29.They only said it was symbolic when it became clear that the evidence
:51:30. > :51:33.said it was false. You missed church this morning didn't you? Peter,
:51:34. > :51:41.Sarah is dying to get in! Let me come to Peter on this. It doesn't
:51:42. > :51:46.affect my belief in Christianity to think that atheism is one of the
:51:47. > :51:50.default positions, as we believe that man has fallen and was
:51:51. > :51:56.separated from his creator. It was interesting that the professor went
:51:57. > :52:01.for an expansive idea of atheism. It is the disbelief of God. That's all
:52:02. > :52:05.it is. You can't simply say that atheism is one particularly thing.
:52:06. > :52:11.Some are empiricists and they believe the only things that are
:52:12. > :52:14.true are those things you can empirically verify. Others believe
:52:15. > :52:18.that the only thing that exists is material. The reason I don't think
:52:19. > :52:23.atheism is a rational choice is there is too much evidence for the
:52:24. > :52:27.existence of God, and Catholic Christianity to believe that atheism
:52:28. > :52:30.is true. For that reason I would say it is irrational. We have the
:52:31. > :52:37.evidence of the resurrection, which is excellent. Where is it? Excellent
:52:38. > :52:45.evidence historically, but Mehta physical evidence of God such as the
:52:46. > :52:51.(Inaudible) of change. Tim first of all. On evidence, this idea of
:52:52. > :52:55.people rising from the dead, that's a common feature of a number of
:52:56. > :53:03.different ancient stories and it is a way of explaining. A story is told
:53:04. > :53:10.in a similar way of coming back from the dead afterwards. It is how you
:53:11. > :53:16.express the idea of a holy man in a genre of writing. It is not that. It
:53:17. > :53:24.is based on the fact that they go forward and die for this belief.
:53:25. > :53:28.That's not the same. Contemporary Connick hers like Filo of Alexandra
:53:29. > :53:33.didn't mention it but others do mention it. We've had that debate
:53:34. > :53:40.before. We are going to have it before and you, Sarah, think that
:53:41. > :53:45.belief is logical and rational, but which belief? Is Scientology, is
:53:46. > :53:51.that rational? It is not really religious. It is recognised as a
:53:52. > :53:56.religion. Hare Krishna, is that rational? You have to work out,
:53:57. > :54:03.first of all, I would like to start with why I think that atheism is
:54:04. > :54:09.irrational. Is Mormonism rational? Shall we just start with belief in
:54:10. > :54:15.God? I think you can demonstrate there is some religions that have
:54:16. > :54:22.better... Better... Sarah, I do apologise. Over to you. You.. Faith
:54:23. > :54:28.and reason, John Paul said, are the two wings that the spirit soars. Why
:54:29. > :54:32.is faith reasonable? Because it answers to the longing obvious the
:54:33. > :54:38.human heart. I think it is irrational to feel that a room full
:54:39. > :54:42.of people and an earth full of people who long for justice, for
:54:43. > :54:47.truth, for beauty and eternal life should be living in a universe that
:54:48. > :54:50.answers to none of those desires and requirements. What a cynical thing
:54:51. > :54:54.to believe that all the things we desire are nothing and they end
:54:55. > :54:59.nowhere and time is there and we fall into an abyss of meaningless.
:55:00. > :55:02.That's irrational and cynical. But you also need apart from that
:55:03. > :55:07.longing and desire and the beauty of the lives of the Saints. I'm not
:55:08. > :55:13.here talking about the source of Mormonism. What do we need religion?
:55:14. > :55:20.Because the human heart cries out for love and meaning. Because it is
:55:21. > :55:25.true. We cry out for a communion. But wanting something doesn't make
:55:26. > :55:28.it true. What Wanting something doesn't make it true.
:55:29. > :55:39.APPLAUSE. I agree with you, Sir, but that's why you need reason to
:55:40. > :55:46.understand. Wait a minority. Arif? God bless you. It gives an idea
:55:47. > :55:50.behind the reasons you think are arguments. You did talk for about
:55:51. > :55:58.three minutes, mam, and I haven't heard a single argument. I did hear
:55:59. > :56:03.one argument from Peter earlier, to do with scriptural evidence for the
:56:04. > :56:08.resurrection and you alluded to another one. Everyone knows it is
:56:09. > :56:15.clear that people make mistakes all the time, scriptures are wrong all
:56:16. > :56:18.the time. You believe in testimonies in Islam, Mormonism and Scientology,
:56:19. > :56:25.in David were youer, these are wrong. These mistakes, plenty of
:56:26. > :56:31.reason to think. I'm going to privilege Elaine here. Thank you!
:56:32. > :56:35.Afterive. Elaine? Arif, you are a good academic. I respect your stuff
:56:36. > :56:44.in a range of ways, but what you are talking now is rubbish.
:56:45. > :56:48.LAUGHTER Have you never heard... You can't say scriptures are wrong. The
:56:49. > :56:58.Bible is a library, not just a book. Excuse me... Let me finish! It is
:56:59. > :57:02.tool about literature. Some of it is letters, dream analysis. Some of it
:57:03. > :57:07.is fiction. Deliberately, the gospels are full of fictional
:57:08. > :57:13.stories, we call them parables. The talking donkey is a parable. Right?
:57:14. > :57:19.You read them appropriate to the form of liturgy. You don't get the
:57:20. > :57:23.books of law out of the psalms. That's interesting but I want an
:57:24. > :57:28.argument that these things are true. Afterive, a thunderbolt is going to
:57:29. > :57:35.knock you down in a minute! Elaine, was this should not... We are coming
:57:36. > :57:39.to the end. We should have started a much earlier. We were talking about
:57:40. > :57:45.other things. Let me ask you this. Isn't it logical that in the dawn of
:57:46. > :57:50.our species the cradle of our species 100,000 years ago people
:57:51. > :57:56.only lived for 20-25 years, so adulthood was short, people died, a
:57:57. > :58:00.massive infant mortality rate and religion was a way of dealing with
:58:01. > :58:07.death and loss? APPLAUSE. I wasn't expecting that! A
:58:08. > :58:12.quick answer, Elaine? Well what's the question? Wasn't that the reason
:58:13. > :58:17.for the development of religious belief? No, not at all. It was not.
:58:18. > :58:20.You've given no evidence. You've just developed a hypothesis. The
:58:21. > :58:28.reason for people's religious beliefs. It was a better hypothesis
:58:29. > :58:31.than the man with magic powers. Any chance of me finishing my sentence?
:58:32. > :58:36.The reason for religious belief is deep down in our heart we have this
:58:37. > :58:42.yearning. Every human being would consent to having a great deal... We
:58:43. > :58:50.have to leave it there. She's right, we should have started earlier.