:00:00. > :00:09.Today on The Big Questions: inequality, fair trade,
:00:10. > :00:24.evangelism and - nothing about the EU referendum!
:00:25. > :00:30.Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions.
:00:31. > :00:32.Today we're live from the Students' Union at Northumbria University
:00:33. > :00:39.Welcome, everyone, to The Big Questions.
:00:40. > :00:49.If you want to get on in the world choose your parents wisely -
:00:50. > :00:52.the richer the more likely it is that you too will succeed.
:00:53. > :00:54.This week's report from the Sutton Trust showed that
:00:55. > :00:56.Britain's professional elites in the law, the armed services,
:00:57. > :01:01.medicine and even journalism were predominantly privately educated.
:01:02. > :01:04.And they were more likely to attend Oxford and Cambridge too.
:01:05. > :01:07.Globally the gap between rich and poor is reaching new extremes,
:01:08. > :01:15.The charity has calculated that just 62 individuals have the same wealth
:01:16. > :01:20.as the 3.6 billion people who make up the bottom half of humanity.
:01:21. > :01:25.The wealth of the 62 has risen by 44% since 2010, while the wealth
:01:26. > :01:27.of those at the bottom reduced by 41%.
:01:28. > :01:38.The question that must be asked is: Does inequality work?
:01:39. > :01:46.Ian, does inequality work? Yes, we have no choice. There has not been a
:01:47. > :01:50.situation where we have quality, we like inequality. Can you think how
:01:51. > :01:56.boring the Olympics would have been if everybody had been the same? Mo
:01:57. > :02:02.Farah absolutely excelled and it is the same with all sorts of sport.
:02:03. > :02:07.But athletes are not starving. No, but we have a big problem in
:02:08. > :02:12.industry and commerce and every time somebody is successful, we knock
:02:13. > :02:16.them, and that is a British disease. We have levels of inequality which
:02:17. > :02:20.means those types of incentive do not work any more, we have a level
:02:21. > :02:25.of inequality where we have five of the wealthiest families who have as
:02:26. > :02:29.much wealth as the bottom 20%, that is a type of inequality that hurts
:02:30. > :02:34.our economy and society and it means that we don't see the full range of
:02:35. > :02:39.talent we have in society. If you are born poor, you are likely to
:02:40. > :02:43.stay poor. The rungs on the ladder which you can climb our widening and
:02:44. > :02:51.that is not the type of economy or society we want. In the Victorian
:02:52. > :02:55.era, I would say you are spot on and that is how it used to be, but I
:02:56. > :02:59.went into a comprehensive school in Gateshead, and my father was raised
:03:00. > :03:04.in poverty which would make you weep, and he did fine. We need to
:03:05. > :03:07.make sure there is opportunity without any doubt but I don't think
:03:08. > :03:17.you are stuck there just because of where you start. What about Bill
:03:18. > :03:21.Gates, our wealth creator, should he be celebrated? If you cash in all of
:03:22. > :03:25.its wealth and didn't earn any interest, and spent $1 million every
:03:26. > :03:32.day, it would take 280 years to spend his wealth. I don't know what
:03:33. > :03:37.the super rich are going to do. My charity is 125 years old this year,
:03:38. > :03:41.we are set up in Newcastle and Gateshead, and the levels of
:03:42. > :03:45.inequality are compatible to Dickensian levels. We were set up to
:03:46. > :03:49.deal with children on the banks of the River Tyne and we are still
:03:50. > :03:53.working with children and young people today who do not have food to
:03:54. > :03:57.eat. The office is next to the biggest food bank in the UK and we
:03:58. > :04:02.are back to epic proportions of inequality which are having a
:04:03. > :04:06.detriment on young people's lives. We have the worst health chances
:04:07. > :04:10.will young people in Europe. Health, infant mortality rates, it is having
:04:11. > :04:15.a massive impact. A child born in Middlesbrough can expect to live
:04:16. > :04:19.seven years less than one born in Buckinghamshire. This is the impact
:04:20. > :04:24.that inequality has got how would you change it? There was a lot we
:04:25. > :04:28.can do if we have the will to do it. Investing in a fairer education
:04:29. > :04:33.system so we don't have this segregated education. Less pay
:04:34. > :04:41.between top and bottom? Yes, reduced pay ratios and make sure it can be
:04:42. > :04:46.is read. 3.7 million children in poverty, 63% are in homes that
:04:47. > :04:52.actually work. What about reducing the ratio between the person at the
:04:53. > :04:56.top of the business and the prison at the bottom? Putting a cap on
:04:57. > :04:59.salaries would be a bad idea, for the economy as a whole, because it
:05:00. > :05:08.would drive away your best talent and it would go to other countries.
:05:09. > :05:15.Who? The best TV executives. Who would leave if their salary was cap?
:05:16. > :05:18.If you are earning ?200,000 in this country and in Luxembourg the paying
:05:19. > :05:24.unlimited salaries, it makes sense you would go there. Premiership
:05:25. > :05:27.footballers, if there is a pay gap of ?50,000 a week, Lionel Messi
:05:28. > :05:29.would not be there. We need to do something about the issue of
:05:30. > :05:34.would not be there. We need to do high-paid and when you do ask them,
:05:35. > :05:36.they don't want to move abroad and I have faith that people here wants to
:05:37. > :05:45.stay here. In the 1970s, almost no have faith that people here wants to
:05:46. > :05:55.country, they were living in LA or France. There is a value driven...
:05:56. > :06:02.Only 200,000? That is a component of this discussion. As a rabbi, I
:06:03. > :06:07.represent a faith tradition that represents scripture that stands up
:06:08. > :06:13.for the poor. The Bible talks about the Jubilee year, in which debts are
:06:14. > :06:18.renounced and society pushes the reset button, and we all know how
:06:19. > :06:23.crippling debt can be and how it can be intergenerational. The Jewish
:06:24. > :06:28.have a fantastic tradition of going to countries, being immigrants,
:06:29. > :06:33.working hard, self-sacrificing, and massive achievement. You espousing
:06:34. > :06:42.that or the other great Jewish thinker, Karl Marx? I am espousing
:06:43. > :06:48.the Jewish tradition. Capitalist tradition, surely? It is not
:06:49. > :06:51.political but it does have to speak on the issues of social justice and
:06:52. > :06:59.that is an important distinction because when people supper God asks
:07:00. > :07:02.us to speak up to that. Social justice, that is what you were
:07:03. > :07:08.talking about, error, and the fact it is utterly unacceptable that in
:07:09. > :07:11.the fifth biggest economy in the world we have so many children in
:07:12. > :07:18.poverty, but what about this argument? That people would leave.
:07:19. > :07:24.Would you like to raise wages at the bottom of society? Absolutely. In a
:07:25. > :07:30.global situation, if you raise wages at the bottom of society, companies
:07:31. > :07:35.will turn to lower wage economies, and we will suffer as a result, that
:07:36. > :07:45.is the argument. Inequality is bad for the economy. We have to tackle
:07:46. > :07:49.it and at the bottom, a living wage, we're not talking about huge levels
:07:50. > :07:54.of pay increases but a living wage can make a phenomenal difference to
:07:55. > :07:57.the lives of people. Over 60% of all children in poverty have a working
:07:58. > :08:00.parent and they are still in poverty because they are not earning enough
:08:01. > :08:04.to lift themselves out of poverty and surely that is unacceptable. If
:08:05. > :08:07.people work hard they should be able to afford the basic rings to survive
:08:08. > :08:16.all them and their families. APPLAUSE -- things. I am a supporter
:08:17. > :08:18.of the living wage because as a civilised society, nobody should
:08:19. > :08:25.supper but where I have a problem is how much is too much? For how much
:08:26. > :08:29.people should be paid. When I was younger, earning ?100 a week, I
:08:30. > :08:34.thought I was rich and then I met people who were earning ?150 and I
:08:35. > :08:41.thought I could earn that. Is it envy? It is. At the end of the day,
:08:42. > :08:49.too much is 30% more than I earn is what I think that is how we look
:08:50. > :08:54.life. This is a conversation about inequality and what you are talking
:08:55. > :08:57.about is really useful. Raising the minimum wage would be great but not
:08:58. > :09:01.at the level it is, it is not enough. Talking about inequality in
:09:02. > :09:08.terms of this therapeutic management is ridiculous. If we actually want
:09:09. > :09:12.to tackle inequality then that is how capitalism works, if we are
:09:13. > :09:17.talking about reforming and making it slightly better, it will not do
:09:18. > :09:21.anything for working people. You need a conversation about poverty,
:09:22. > :09:25.about economics, political conversation about people wanting
:09:26. > :09:28.more, needing more, people don't want to just manage their minimum
:09:29. > :09:31.wage a little better, I want everything they can have, so we
:09:32. > :09:37.should not have any limits on what people should have or make. Saying
:09:38. > :09:43.that is detrimental to being equal. Incentive? What you have in those
:09:44. > :09:47.situations, you build a steep slope in society, forget about the level
:09:48. > :09:51.playing field, you have a steep slope. It is difficult for people to
:09:52. > :09:55.come up, so you have a situation where parents are putting their
:09:56. > :09:58.children in top private schools, spanning ?35,000 a year, and then
:09:59. > :10:02.you have state schools which have five grand per pupil and you cannot
:10:03. > :10:10.compete. The economy is losing out through that, losing talent. Rather
:10:11. > :10:15.than bringing... This is what the initiative does, it is rings the top
:10:16. > :10:19.down to meet in some really rubbish middle. Rather than criticising the
:10:20. > :10:24.level of education in private schools, I want that for state
:10:25. > :10:29.schools. Ring everybody up to the top level.
:10:30. > :10:36.APPLAUSE -- bring. An American woman married a guy from one of the top
:10:37. > :10:38.public schools in England, and it is that self-confidence, the way he
:10:39. > :10:44.presented himself, and they were married for ten years. It took ten
:10:45. > :10:49.years or her to realise he was thick! Of course you want that for
:10:50. > :10:53.everybody, the same confidence, but the truth is that we are telling
:10:54. > :11:02.these people at the bottom they are an aspirational and lazy. It is hard
:11:03. > :11:05.to fight against that. It is life or death for some people. Look at the
:11:06. > :11:10.inequalities in health and the life expectancy, you are looking at maybe
:11:11. > :11:15.15 years difference across places like Glasgow train the rich and poor
:11:16. > :11:19.areas. It is developing world level. Some people will not live to get a
:11:20. > :11:22.pension in the UK. If you're looking at the inequality between the top
:11:23. > :11:27.and bottom, by every measure when you look at other countries, those
:11:28. > :11:32.who have less inequality, people feel more of a stake in society,
:11:33. > :11:37.they trust society more, they are happy within that, there is less
:11:38. > :11:41.obesity, less teenage pregnancy, there is more sense of humility,
:11:42. > :11:45.surely it is a no-brainer? I know that is true, I know the book you
:11:46. > :11:53.are referring to and it is nonsense. -- none of that is true. Inequality
:11:54. > :11:58.is irrelevant. We are nearly always using it as a proxy for something
:11:59. > :12:01.else and you have talked about social mobility, education, poverty
:12:02. > :12:04.especially. If we want to deal with those things as we should do, we
:12:05. > :12:08.need to spit it out and say that and not go round the houses talking
:12:09. > :12:14.about inequality because if we talk about it we just end up saying we
:12:15. > :12:20.need to level it down, tax the rich. It is all about the rich. Damaging
:12:21. > :12:23.the rich will not help the poor. Chris, if the rich elites of Africa
:12:24. > :12:29.did not have 500 billion dollars worth of their wealth scribbled away
:12:30. > :12:32.in offshore tax havens, we would have lifted 200 million more out of
:12:33. > :12:38.poverty across Africa over the last 30 years. We do need to have
:12:39. > :12:43.mechanisms to make sure there is some redistribution of wealth. You
:12:44. > :12:47.are talking about inequality as a proxy for something else. We're
:12:48. > :12:52.talking about endemic corruption in the third World, that is the issue.
:12:53. > :12:55.We are talking about our accountancy firms who have allowed that to
:12:56. > :13:00.happen, they have advised companies and created incentives. We will move
:13:01. > :13:04.onto the global situation with shopping and fair trade our next
:13:05. > :13:10.debate. People have been lifted globally out of poverty by
:13:11. > :13:14.capitalism at record rates. People are being lifted out of poverty and
:13:15. > :13:17.economies are growing and that is great but we would have lifted
:13:18. > :13:22.hundreds of millions more people out of poverty if we had had their
:13:23. > :13:28.economic systems, redistribution of wealth mechanisms. On top of that,
:13:29. > :13:32.there are inequalities within the countries. If women had had the same
:13:33. > :13:37.opportunities as men, we would have grown the world economy by 10% more
:13:38. > :13:42.than we have done. We do need to make sure women and men have equal
:13:43. > :13:54.opportunities. I am working until the 3rd of March when women earn 80%
:13:55. > :13:59.of what men do. There are two things here. Women are suffering from
:14:00. > :14:02.inequality in the jobs market, gender inequality there, and also
:14:03. > :14:06.because of inequality in society in general, they are suffering because
:14:07. > :14:12.disproportionally, they are looking after families and they are carers.
:14:13. > :14:22.Women are inequality and are taking the brunt of it. Women are not
:14:23. > :14:25.suffering, that is not true. On average, with like-for-like work,
:14:26. > :14:31.women and men get paid exactly the same. Women in their 20s and 30s are
:14:32. > :14:34.earning more than men. I don't understand why we need to have this
:14:35. > :14:39.conversation about inequality and say women are so put upon when we
:14:40. > :14:42.are in a good position. We do need to do more after childbirth where
:14:43. > :14:45.they suffer inequalities in the workplace. That needs to be
:14:46. > :14:50.addressed. When you're talking about redistribution and making everything
:14:51. > :14:54.equal, it is a conversation with a ceiling. It is not about letting
:14:55. > :15:00.people learn and do as best as they can. Sharing out the measly cake is
:15:01. > :15:10.not making more. It is not a progressive conversation.
:15:11. > :15:16.Currently we have a situation where we have endemic elitism. We have a
:15:17. > :15:19.situation where the poorest people and people in the middle class
:15:20. > :15:26.cannot do as well as they can do and the talent they have got. Inequality
:15:27. > :15:30.is so high. We are not just asking for equal pay. This is a
:15:31. > :15:35.misconception. We're not saying we should have exactly the same. We
:15:36. > :15:40.have a situation where TV executives are earning 200 times that of
:15:41. > :15:48.others. We can even it out more, it is a matter of teamwork. It could be
:15:49. > :15:50.50 times more. APPLAUSE
:15:51. > :15:53.50 years ago that might have been the case. Now the corporate world is
:15:54. > :15:58.different. We want the best in the corporate world. We do not care what
:15:59. > :16:06.age, colour or sex you are. Are you saying that people that go to
:16:07. > :16:09.private school are not as smart? It is a matter of opportunity. It is
:16:10. > :16:14.owed, and equality of opportunity. How do you do that? You have got to
:16:15. > :16:16.invest more in education, without a shadow of a doubt.
:16:17. > :16:20.THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE Where do we get the money from, how
:16:21. > :16:28.bottom? If this was working, it bottom? If this was working, it
:16:29. > :16:30.Market fundamentalism bottom? If this was working, it
:16:31. > :16:37.working for a tiny minority of bottom? If this was working, it
:16:38. > :16:42.fundamentalism? We need to address this. The more you try
:16:43. > :16:44.fundamentalism? We need to address everything, we're left with this
:16:45. > :16:50.situation. We need to invest that money. That is where the
:16:51. > :16:54.reinvestment comes from. It is about fair taxation. If people pay the
:16:55. > :16:59.taxes they are supposed to pay, we could invest that in education and
:17:00. > :17:03.level the playing field. You're at the bottom of the lead, you are at a
:17:04. > :17:09.bad school, you're never going to succeed. We should give people hope,
:17:10. > :17:14.you can succeed and do it. People who believe they can deliver will do
:17:15. > :17:19.it. I really do not like this idea that the working class are all these
:17:20. > :17:26.kind of put upon idiots, who, if you tell them, they are consistently
:17:27. > :17:29.being told they cannot do anything. They are consistently downplayed.
:17:30. > :17:37.People are ambitious. It is wrong to say that. The anti-equality I'd it
:17:38. > :17:44.makes out like the working class, we are victims of society and we cannot
:17:45. > :17:48.do anything. No. Yes, it does. I have been out talking to young
:17:49. > :17:53.people this week and a very aspirational. People from humble
:17:54. > :17:58.backgrounds, very ambitious. The odds are stacked against them. They
:17:59. > :18:05.are losing hope. Society is telling them that they are scroungers. I do
:18:06. > :18:07.not want to live in that kind of society.
:18:08. > :18:13.APPLAUSE Chris, let me take you back to what
:18:14. > :18:19.Sarna said about fair taxation. Making sure that people pay the
:18:20. > :18:25.taxes they are meant to pay. Is that desirable, and is it practical? In
:18:26. > :18:30.the 1970s, when we had the kind of policies the class think-tank would
:18:31. > :18:36.like to bring back, we had 83% income tax. As a result, we had
:18:37. > :18:42.basically exported talent. From the 1980s, we started bringing rich
:18:43. > :18:46.people back. Rich people are flocking from all over the world to
:18:47. > :18:49.come and live in London. Oligarchs? It is not a bad thing. I do not see
:18:50. > :18:55.how it affects the Baloy middle It is not a bad thing. I do not see
:18:56. > :19:02.Laurel Lincolns. In real terms, incomes have doubled since the
:19:03. > :19:06.1970s. An 80% increase since 1977 in real terms. These are major steps
:19:07. > :19:10.forward in terms of real living standards. I do not think we should
:19:11. > :19:16.be sacrificing increases in living standards in England for a rigid
:19:17. > :19:21.thing that little gap. Saller, you use the word Dickensian. It is
:19:22. > :19:28.ridiculous hyperbole. In the Victorian era you had genuine
:19:29. > :19:31.poverty. Come and work with me and meet some of the families that we
:19:32. > :19:36.work with and see the conditions they are living in. You're detached
:19:37. > :19:40.from reality. When the wealthy have such concentrated wealth, not only
:19:41. > :19:45.do they have mass wealth, they have power. You can employ teams of
:19:46. > :19:49.lawyers, get tax loopholes, pick your money in offshore accounts. If
:19:50. > :19:54.you want money to be moving in the economy, you need to give it to
:19:55. > :19:58.people who are poor, who will spend that money in the local area and get
:19:59. > :20:05.the economy shifting again. The best way for them to do that is to have a
:20:06. > :20:09.job. 60% of children in poverty have a working parent. If you scare them
:20:10. > :20:15.out of the country, they will be worse off. In your mind, that is
:20:16. > :20:21.inequality working? Yes. Those jobs need to be a proper living wage. Not
:20:22. > :20:24.this you don't living wage that is about to be introduced by the
:20:25. > :20:28.government, a slight improvement on the minimum wage. We need proper
:20:29. > :20:33.living wages that cover the cost of what people need to live on. That is
:20:34. > :20:39.not the case in Britain, not for many of the things we buy. She is
:20:40. > :20:43.right. We need to raise wages as well as making more jobs. This is
:20:44. > :20:50.why it is not what you are arguing, this emotional like him and about
:20:51. > :20:58.the mini Vac that are put upon. -- this emotional argument about the
:20:59. > :21:02.poor that are put upon. There is consensus now from organisations
:21:03. > :21:09.like the IMF and the World Bank. They say that inequality is hurting
:21:10. > :21:15.the economy. It is hurting growth. We do not want to cry and twinge.
:21:16. > :21:20.THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE Working-class people do not have the
:21:21. > :21:29.same access to the resources of society as those. We live in an
:21:30. > :21:33.unequal society. Rather than crying about the situation, do something
:21:34. > :21:40.about it. Argue for more economic growth, which would help everybody.
:21:41. > :21:45.Yes, but lower inequality would help economic growth. Social engineering
:21:46. > :21:51.means that the top have locked it up. We do not have the kind of free
:21:52. > :21:53.markets and talent that you guys should be supporting. The
:21:54. > :21:58.fastest-growing economies have growing inequality. Globally,
:21:59. > :22:04.inequality is falling, and it is falling primarily because China is
:22:05. > :22:09.growing. In China, inequality is increasing. If you're concerned
:22:10. > :22:14.about inequality, IOU worried about increasing inequality in China, or
:22:15. > :22:18.inequality worldwide? China is becoming a rich country.
:22:19. > :22:23.THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE We have to leave it there. Faiza, we
:22:24. > :22:27.have other things to talk about. Thank you for your contribution to
:22:28. > :22:28.that debate. Do not worry, I will come to you.
:22:29. > :22:30.If you have something to say about that debate,
:22:31. > :22:33.log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions, and follow the link to where you can
:22:34. > :22:42.We're also debating, live this morning from Newcastle,
:22:43. > :22:43.can ethical shopping change the world?
:22:44. > :22:46.And later, should religions tout for business?
:22:47. > :22:49.So get tweeting or emailing on those topics now or send us any other
:22:50. > :22:58.ideas or thoughts you may have about the show.
:22:59. > :23:01.Tomorrow is the start of Fairtrade Fortnight,
:23:02. > :23:05.an annual campaign to get better prices, decent working conditions
:23:06. > :23:07.and fairer terms of trade for small-scale farmers and workers
:23:08. > :23:13.Newcastle has been a Fairtrade city since 2003 and Northumbria
:23:14. > :23:16.University, where we are today, is a Fairtrade university.
:23:17. > :23:20.Both have pledged to sell products in their offices and canteens
:23:21. > :23:27.which meet the social, economic and environmental standards
:23:28. > :23:33.Can ethical shopping change the world?
:23:34. > :23:40.This debate is not unrelated to what we have beans beating about. We are
:23:41. > :23:46.moving to a global situation. Let's establish what ethical shopping is.
:23:47. > :23:50.It is difficult, Barbara, we heard edge and of China, workers' rights
:23:51. > :23:57.in China, the trade unions are crushed. Is that ethical? If you buy
:23:58. > :24:01.a packet of biscuits which has palm oil in it, the deforestation and the
:24:02. > :24:05.destruction of the rainforest for palm oil plantations, that is
:24:06. > :24:12.destroying orangutans, it is destroying species. What is ethical?
:24:13. > :24:17.Ethical is about trying to think about those issues. OK, one more, if
:24:18. > :24:23.I may. Think about those global issues. If you walk down a high
:24:24. > :24:28.street, and go to a chicken outlet, what about the way that those
:24:29. > :24:34.animals have been treated? Another example closer to home. Exactly. If
:24:35. > :24:39.you had a cup of tea this morning, chances are, one in three children
:24:40. > :24:43.in tea producing areas around the world, going hungry, are suffering
:24:44. > :24:49.malnutrition and are at risk of stunted growth. In Malawi, it is one
:24:50. > :24:54.in two. If we want to enjoy a nice cup of tea, how do we make sure that
:24:55. > :24:59.the farmers who grew that they can lift themselves out of poverty and
:25:00. > :25:03.earn a decent income, can form Firkin -- with concern for their own
:25:04. > :25:07.local environment, and adapt to climate change? It is thinking about
:25:08. > :25:12.the connections we have every time we shop. Martin Luther King said
:25:13. > :25:17.that before you finish your breakfast in the morning, you have
:25:18. > :25:23.depended on half the world. Bananas from Columbia, copy from Nicaragua.
:25:24. > :25:27.We spend billions of pounds every day in the UK. How do we make sure
:25:28. > :25:32.those shopping choices make a positive difference and do not
:25:33. > :25:39.perpetuate problems? Is it more expensive? It does not have to be.
:25:40. > :25:43.It often is. You can buy a fair trade banana in Sainsbury's today
:25:44. > :25:49.for the same price as a non-fair trade one in Tesco. People want to
:25:50. > :25:53.buy things as cheap as possible. Middle-class morality would say that
:25:54. > :25:58.things have to be more expensive. You have created a double standard.
:25:59. > :26:04.If you take the price of bananas today, ten years ago we were paying
:26:05. > :26:09.?1.10 a kilo. Today it is ?60. The banana industry around the world is
:26:10. > :26:14.dependent on migrant labour, very low wages, because there is not
:26:15. > :26:17.enough value going into the supply. Doctor Caspar Hewett, you have
:26:18. > :26:25.described this as moralistic imperialism. There is a phrase. I
:26:26. > :26:30.believe it is. Yes, I think there are real problems with the fair
:26:31. > :26:33.trade movement. A lot of the time, it is people in the West, making
:26:34. > :26:40.decisions about what they consider ethical, what they consider fair.
:26:41. > :26:45.Are imposing that are in -- on people in the third World. It is not
:26:46. > :26:50.democratic, the people in the third World are not deciding how they want
:26:51. > :26:55.to form, what they want to do. If a farmer in the third World wants to
:26:56. > :26:58.grow GM crop that is pesticide resistant and high yield, that would
:26:59. > :27:03.be seen as unethical by the fair trade movement. They would not be
:27:04. > :27:08.able to sell that crop through those means. There are massive problems
:27:09. > :27:15.with it. It is imposing values on people that should not be imposed.
:27:16. > :27:20.That is nonsense. In the fair trade system, the farmers' organisations
:27:21. > :27:26.have every say. We are 50% owned by those farmers' organisations. GM
:27:27. > :27:30.puts them in the hands of multinational companies, that is why
:27:31. > :27:34.they do not want it. They want to be able to use their own seeds and
:27:35. > :27:39.reuse them and have possession of them, and not be in the hands of
:27:40. > :27:44.those companies. I think this is about farmers wanting to earn a
:27:45. > :27:48.decent price. I have never met a farmer who says, yes, give me the
:27:49. > :27:53.cheapest price and give me charity when I cannot live. Nobody wants
:27:54. > :27:58.charity. If you look at the reality, nobody wants to live with the
:27:59. > :28:04.grinding poverty of working on a small scare -- small-scale farm in
:28:05. > :28:10.developing countries. Why do people flock to cities the world over? Why
:28:11. > :28:14.do people want development? People across the world want to live the
:28:15. > :28:20.sort of life that we live. That is because it is much better. It is the
:28:21. > :28:25.growing pains of capitalism and industrialisation. That is what
:28:26. > :28:28.happened. Small agricultural systems, people wanted to get out of
:28:29. > :28:33.there and go to the city and make a life. Are we restricting them
:28:34. > :28:37.through the fair trade movement? This is about opportunity. Renee and
:28:38. > :28:43.ethical consumer means we're connected with the people in rural
:28:44. > :28:48.growing and things we are eating it every day. When you meet with the
:28:49. > :28:51.smallholders, as I have, we trade with people in 35 developing
:28:52. > :28:57.countries around the world, and have done that for 35 years, they do not
:28:58. > :29:02.see this as Western imperialism. They are looking for an opportunity,
:29:03. > :29:07.a chance to be a smallholder, to grow crops, to go -- to do a good
:29:08. > :29:13.job and work hard. Sustainable? To develop their families and
:29:14. > :29:18.communities. Is it sustainable? This is all about sustainability. The
:29:19. > :29:23.world gets 70% of its food from small family farmers. Do we want to
:29:24. > :29:28.secure source of food for future? If we do, we need to be senior is about
:29:29. > :29:31.this and make sure that the smallholders have a sustainable
:29:32. > :29:37.livelihood. Would fair trade feed the world?
:29:38. > :29:44.Fair trade has increased dramatically. As consumers, we spent
:29:45. > :29:47.?200 billion a year on food in the UK, a significant amount of
:29:48. > :29:50.?200 billion a year on food in the all have by making ethical choices.
:29:51. > :29:59.We can play a part in changing the world. Kasper does not agree with
:30:00. > :30:04.that. Ella Eyre? There was a report in 2014 that showed fair trade was
:30:05. > :30:10.doing nothing for workers in developing countries and the premium
:30:11. > :30:18.was often misspent by giving special toilets for managers that workers
:30:19. > :30:24.could not use. A lot of people have taken issue with report. Fair trade
:30:25. > :30:29.makes middle class people in the UK and USA feel better about themselves
:30:30. > :30:31.and does nothing for people in developing countries. It is about
:30:32. > :30:38.maintaining a low level of sustainability. We are all here. We
:30:39. > :30:44.don't want that. For the sake of us feeling a bit better, falsely, for
:30:45. > :30:52.buying false trade, it is doing absolutely nothing. I can cite you
:30:53. > :30:57.are universally report that showed Ugandan coffee farmers had increased
:30:58. > :31:02.income by 30% or a Swiss university that showed Lumby and farmers were
:31:03. > :31:07.50% less likely to be in poverty and have a 30% uplift in their household
:31:08. > :31:17.income. Let's not trade reports. -- that showed Colombian. Why not? I
:31:18. > :31:21.was in Bangladesh last year meeting smallholder farmers in everything
:31:22. > :31:24.from this kind of work and I saw their incomes had increased by seven
:31:25. > :31:32.or ten times. It is fairly simple for that to happen. With the right
:31:33. > :31:35.opportunity, to grow, with the right agricultural methods, to have a
:31:36. > :31:40.better market where you are at least guaranteed a minimum for your crop.
:31:41. > :31:45.It is possible. We won't pay in extra one or 2p for our own milk
:31:46. > :31:52.from our own dairy farmers. I completely disagree with that. Who
:31:53. > :31:59.said that? A disembodied voice! What you disagree with? I think it is an
:32:00. > :32:03.allusion that we can have this free unregulated market. Looking
:32:04. > :32:08.historically, there has always been regulation of market forces and a
:32:09. > :32:13.push for fair trade. If we look at the Bible, the Bible already talks
:32:14. > :32:20.about using equal weights and measures. We had market inspectors
:32:21. > :32:25.checking the markets, making sure trade was happening fairly. The
:32:26. > :32:29.Jewish tradition has a lot to say about trading fairly, and it is a
:32:30. > :32:39.delusion to think we can do without it. It is a moral and economic
:32:40. > :32:42.necessity. People don't seem to be willing to pay an extra couple of
:32:43. > :32:49.pence to our own dairy farmers. Would there come a time when people
:32:50. > :32:52.see the global situation, see the deforestation, and say, yes, I need
:32:53. > :32:57.to look on the label and making ethical choice. OK, it is only ?10
:32:58. > :33:00.but I need to know how it was produced and pay a little bit more
:33:01. > :33:04.for something produced epically. Will it happen? Maybe, but that is
:33:05. > :33:08.not how you bring about change and if you believe in change and
:33:09. > :33:14.progress and a better future, which I do, then making choice is about
:33:15. > :33:19.what food you eat what products you buy, and it puts it all in the realm
:33:20. > :33:25.of consumption, and I don't buy that. You can't argue for an
:33:26. > :33:31.electricity grid for the whole of Africa by choosing not to buy a
:33:32. > :33:37.certain goods. I work in water resources, and you can't argue for
:33:38. > :33:40.irrigation networks and the best technology for our country by saying
:33:41. > :33:46.I'm going to buy a product from here or there. I agree with that. As
:33:47. > :33:50.consumers, what we do is important because our choices are not just the
:33:51. > :33:54.things we are buying for ourselves but they are sending a signal to
:33:55. > :33:58.markets and companies about what kind of business we want them to
:33:59. > :34:03.practice. It sends a signal to government about what kind of rules
:34:04. > :34:07.we want in the way we trade. The modern slavery and was brought in
:34:08. > :34:11.here in the UK to end trafficking, illegal activity, and within that,
:34:12. > :34:16.businesses themselves lobbied for transparency measures where all
:34:17. > :34:20.businesses over a certain size have to report. That is right, we need
:34:21. > :34:28.that combination of what we do as consumers, what we do politically.
:34:29. > :34:37.Who is prepared to pay more? Rabbi, you do surprise me! The lady in the
:34:38. > :34:45.blue. What about people who cannot afford to? Well, particularly in
:34:46. > :34:51.this particular climate, my opinion on this was, yes, I would love to
:34:52. > :34:55.think it would create a massive change, but global companies and
:34:56. > :35:01.money is going to ruin it. What would you like to say? I am 17 years
:35:02. > :35:05.old and my mum works full time so we just eat what she manages to put on
:35:06. > :35:09.the table, but the real question about this debate is whether our
:35:10. > :35:14.choices as consumers can change the world, and we saw when Sainsbury's
:35:15. > :35:18.decided, because of bad publicity, they win no longer going to sell
:35:19. > :35:22.genetically modified crops, and the other supermarkets were shocked by
:35:23. > :35:26.this negative publicity that they had to change as well. If that does
:35:27. > :35:28.not prove that consumer power can change the world, I don't know what
:35:29. > :35:36.does. APPLAUSE Hello, yes? Good morning.
:35:37. > :35:44.Intellectual property allows people with money to patents various
:35:45. > :35:51.consumer items, depriving farmers who can't afford it, and then the
:35:52. > :35:56.banks can lend money at extortionate interest rates. These are unethical
:35:57. > :36:04.and as consumers we have the power to change the world. The way to go
:36:05. > :36:07.about this is a quality at work, in education, opportunities, work-life
:36:08. > :36:13.balance and all of these things we have to consider, and we can do it.
:36:14. > :36:17.APPLAUSE Rabbi? It seems strange that just because there might well
:36:18. > :36:21.be the ultimate solution to the problem by buying fair trade
:36:22. > :36:27.bananas, that we should not Ed Leigh 's try and make a difference. We
:36:28. > :36:32.have kids packing food parcels. That is because it is the right thing to
:36:33. > :36:37.provide for poor families who don't have that. There was an inequality
:36:38. > :36:43.in society and we can't solve every problem but we have power. Its
:36:44. > :36:45.shelves were empty of certain products, the supermarkets would
:36:46. > :36:54.understand where consumer power is. The right wing to do is not changing
:36:55. > :37:00.the world but changing yourself. -- at least try. Don't we have a moral
:37:01. > :37:05.responsibility to think globally and ethically and what is good for the
:37:06. > :37:11.planet and our fellow inhabitants? Whether they be human or nonhuman.
:37:12. > :37:17.Arguing against fair trade is not arguing for the continuation of
:37:18. > :37:24.poverty and inequality. Absolutely not. In fact, the opposite. Arguing
:37:25. > :37:28.against fair trade and essentially keeping and sustaining countries
:37:29. > :37:31.like Africa on this kind of low, bumping along level that we are
:37:32. > :37:37.happy with because it makes us feel better, God forbid Africa or are
:37:38. > :37:41.developing country becomes industrialised and have the lives we
:37:42. > :37:46.have. Fair trade is uninterested in that. It is interested in making
:37:47. > :37:52.everything seem equal and making everything seem like people are
:37:53. > :37:58.having better lives. There are not. Is there a nostalgia to it? A golden
:37:59. > :38:04.age of small-scale agriculture? The point was made before, who wants to
:38:05. > :38:09.live and work on a farm that is just above the poverty line? It is not
:38:10. > :38:14.about nostalgia, it is about opportunity. What we see in practice
:38:15. > :38:17.is fair trade is that it provides opportunities for people to become
:38:18. > :38:22.entrepreneurs, business people. It is not just about slightly better
:38:23. > :38:30.working conditions on IT farm. People can become really successful
:38:31. > :38:32.business people. -- a tea. They can create enterprise and become dynamos
:38:33. > :38:36.for enterprise in their community. It is from a business point of view,
:38:37. > :38:39.not just a do-gooder thing from the UK. There is a strong business
:38:40. > :38:46.arguing from the UK. That is why businesses are embracing it. Surely
:38:47. > :38:52.you have a moral responsibility to intervene and stop children of nine,
:38:53. > :38:58.ten, 11, 12, 13 or 14 years old working in factories? My maternal
:38:59. > :39:02.grandmother started work at the age of 13. My grandmother. Think about
:39:03. > :39:07.that. We have advanced stop some countries have not and they want to
:39:08. > :39:13.get to where we are. Do we all have to say they have to be 16? It would
:39:14. > :39:16.not happen, it would not work. Who draws the line and says what we
:39:17. > :39:20.should or shouldn't eat or where it should come from? If you are a
:39:21. > :39:26.vegetarian, you should not eat at all, that is your ethical
:39:27. > :39:29.standpoint. When I was 13, I had a paper round, and nobody is saying
:39:30. > :39:34.that children should not be able to do appropriate forms of work,
:39:35. > :39:39.support their families on-farm. Fair trade farmers have invested in all
:39:40. > :39:41.kinds of mechanisation. They have invested in processing their own
:39:42. > :39:48.copy for local markets because they have earned more. This is about a
:39:49. > :39:53.process of development. It is aspirational. If you are a farmer
:39:54. > :39:56.with four children, really only one of those children is able to take
:39:57. > :40:00.over the farm, and you want your other children to get an education
:40:01. > :40:03.to be able to train as lawyers and accountants. If that is not the case
:40:04. > :40:08.because you are on poverty level wages all the time, you're not going
:40:09. > :40:15.to have that opportunity. I would rather they train as engineers than
:40:16. > :40:21.lawyers or accountants! We can agree that trade is a great thing and
:40:22. > :40:23.increases the wealth of people. Just going back to our earlier debate, we
:40:24. > :40:29.are now agreeing that wealth creation is of an plastic thing.
:40:30. > :40:38.Isn't that wonderful? -- a fantastic thing. Wealth creation is ultimately
:40:39. > :40:43.about everyone having the chance. This debate is more about power.
:40:44. > :40:47.This is about those people in parts of Africa, those farmers, the people
:40:48. > :40:53.who are benefiting from fair trade, saying something back. In the past,
:40:54. > :40:57.they had no power. These programmes and initiatives give them power. We
:40:58. > :41:02.need to do much more, it is not solve everything. Fair trade is
:41:03. > :41:08.usually restricted. You have to meet certain kinds of environmental
:41:09. > :41:13.things. You can only use specific ways. It is extremely restrictive
:41:14. > :41:17.and that is how it is keeping developing countries at this bumping
:41:18. > :41:24.along level. Chris, you have been quiet. It is not terribly important
:41:25. > :41:27.and it is a small part of total trade, and it makes middle-class
:41:28. > :41:30.people trade, and it makes middle-class
:41:31. > :41:33.shopping then it is worth the extra pence they are prepared to
:41:34. > :41:41.shopping then it is worth the extra trouble is when it causes
:41:42. > :41:44.disincentives in the market. If we drop tariffs and allow free trade.
:41:45. > :41:44.Thank you very much, thank you for that.
:41:45. > :41:56.APPLAUSE -- You can join in all this
:41:57. > :42:03.morning's debates by logging Or you can tweet using
:42:04. > :42:11.the hashtag bbctbq Tell us what you think
:42:12. > :42:14.about our last Big Question too - And if you'd like to be
:42:15. > :42:18.in the audience at a future show, Glasgow on March 13th and Brighton
:42:19. > :42:26.the week after that. Just up the coast from here
:42:27. > :42:28.at Lindisfarne, was one of the earliest centres of
:42:29. > :42:30.Christianity in the British Isles, These days Christianity is no longer
:42:31. > :42:34.on the rise in Britain So last week at the General Synod
:42:35. > :42:39.of the Church of England, the Archbishops of York
:42:40. > :42:40.and Canterbury invited all their churches to "pray
:42:41. > :42:42.for the evangelisation And their Evangelism Task Force has
:42:43. > :42:50.come up with new ways to connect to children and young people
:42:51. > :43:10.with the aim of bringing them Canon John, you want people to hear
:43:11. > :43:16.the message of Jesus, you want to go and get them for Jesus. Absolutely.
:43:17. > :43:19.Since the beginning when Jesus walked along the beach and said to
:43:20. > :43:24.be but, follow me, and people followed him, that has been going
:43:25. > :43:33.on, and people have been sharing the jury and transformation of life of
:43:34. > :43:39.being a Christian, a follower of Jesus. You want to take a leaf out
:43:40. > :43:43.of the book of Mormon. You can't walk a railway station in this
:43:44. > :43:47.country without seeing the Jehovah's Witnesses, Harry Krishna, are you
:43:48. > :43:55.following that rail? I want to follow the trail of Saint Aidan when
:43:56. > :43:58.he went and walked around the countryside and he asked people when
:43:59. > :44:02.he met them, you wanted to meet people on their level, the king had
:44:03. > :44:09.invited him, he asked them to questions. Are you baptise? In other
:44:10. > :44:14.words... He was walking around? He was walking around. -- baptised.
:44:15. > :44:20.Somebody gave a horse and said he would get around much quicker on a
:44:21. > :44:25.horse. He had much more of a need then he did. Are you going to do
:44:26. > :44:31.this on a bus? There is a campaign on at the moment in Newcastle where
:44:32. > :44:35.there are these prayer campaigns on the bus but what we try and do in
:44:36. > :44:41.Newcastle is encourage people in their local context to connect with
:44:42. > :44:46.their community, and to just not whack people over the head with a
:44:47. > :44:52.Bible, but to gently share the fate they have discovered. If people are
:44:53. > :44:57.having our faith gently shared with them, they feel they are being
:44:58. > :44:59.whacked overhead. Humanist. You want to spread the message of humanism.
:45:00. > :45:12.Praise the non-Lord! There has to be a fair way of doing
:45:13. > :45:18.it. In this country, we have all of the Faith schools, which tap into
:45:19. > :45:22.this market, as they see it. They use our money, our state funding to
:45:23. > :45:27.get their message across. It is desperately difficult to get the
:45:28. > :45:32.humanist message across. Last week, we got the first ever humanist
:45:33. > :45:39.pastoral care in the NHS. We have been battling for years. We cannot
:45:40. > :45:43.get through. Touting for business? You need good information behind
:45:44. > :45:48.you. You need a good trade union behind you, I bit like the Church of
:45:49. > :45:54.England, the strongest trade union in the clergy in the world, 26 shop
:45:55. > :45:58.stewards in the House of Lords. You need to get yourself a horse and get
:45:59. > :46:03.the message out. Touting for business is not what we are doing.
:46:04. > :46:09.What are you going to tell him about Jesus? What he said himself, I have
:46:10. > :46:15.come, I have life. It is about motivation. Someone said, if your
:46:16. > :46:21.motives are just to save the Church of England, or to grow your church,
:46:22. > :46:28.that is not the motive, the motive is about love, sharing, the love of
:46:29. > :46:35.God. The love of your neighbour. Rabbi, what do you tell the children
:46:36. > :46:38.at your school about Jesus? It is a very dangerous approach. History has
:46:39. > :46:44.been full of those who say that if you do not share my faith, you do
:46:45. > :46:52.not share my humanity. From that, we have had programmes and Johansson.
:46:53. > :46:59.-- we have had conflict. Do you want more Jews? No, I find it irritating
:47:00. > :47:07.when I am shopping, and someone is standing there with a Bible. They
:47:08. > :47:11.say, get to the Jews. The way I teach, you can get to Heaven being a
:47:12. > :47:21.good person, you can live life as a good person, you do not need to be
:47:22. > :47:29.edgy. It is a complicated lifestyle, it involves lots of restrictions and
:47:30. > :47:36.problems. You're not selling the product ex Commissioner Mark for us,
:47:37. > :47:39.this is not the salvation issue. The rabbi is not right. We do not
:47:40. > :47:44.require non-Jews to become Jewish to go to heaven. We believe that the
:47:45. > :47:56.writers of all nations have a share in the world to come. We are a tiny
:47:57. > :47:59.minority. 0.05% of the British population, .02% of the world
:48:00. > :48:07.population. We have a fantastic way of life. As a rabbi, I would like to
:48:08. > :48:14.welcome sincere spiritual seekers, to explore the option of becoming
:48:15. > :48:17.part of our community. That is completely unnecessary. Live a
:48:18. > :48:23.decent and moral life. Your clothes shop? You do not need to be need to
:48:24. > :48:28.live a good life. I bring into my school assemblies members of the
:48:29. > :48:35.humanist Association. People who do not believe in the God.
:48:36. > :48:42.THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE In north London, you have the Jews
:48:43. > :48:46.for Jesus, handing out leaflets. There is a lovely dustbin opposite
:48:47. > :48:51.their sharp, and as I walked past, I'd just dump it. You need to tell
:48:52. > :49:02.people that Jesus was not the Messiah, he was... Are very naughty
:49:03. > :49:07.boy. We do different traditions. Faith schools are there to educate
:49:08. > :49:11.within the faith, to teach responsibility, that religion has
:49:12. > :49:17.responsibility to the world. Religion came into all those
:49:18. > :49:20.previous discussions. Wealth and charity, we have responsibilities.
:49:21. > :49:28.We do not marry out. We marry within the face. -- the faith. What if you
:49:29. > :49:38.follow in love with someone? You can plan that. Of course you can. I was
:49:39. > :49:44.in my early 20s when I was getting married. I found a beautiful woman
:49:45. > :49:48.to marry. She said my desires for unorthodox lifestyle. You look
:49:49. > :49:52.within a community that shares your values. Then you do not have the
:49:53. > :49:59.challenges. What about the gene pool? I have lovely jeans. I have
:50:00. > :50:02.four children. When I went to get married, I was not part of the
:50:03. > :50:06.church, I did not have Christian parents, and I went to the church
:50:07. > :50:12.because I met this woman, we fell in love at school. We went along, I
:50:13. > :50:17.thought the victor would be pleased, touting for business. He said,
:50:18. > :50:22.really, you're taking advantage of the church. It will look lovely and
:50:23. > :50:28.photographs. He said, you should come. It was awful, it was boring,
:50:29. > :50:32.deadly. I thought, how can people do this for a hobby? It was horrendous.
:50:33. > :50:37.Then something happened. I was in this for a hobby? It was horrendous.
:50:38. > :50:43.explain Christianity and it seemed to make sense. The fact I was loved
:50:44. > :50:48.by God. It had not been in my consciousness before. I saw the
:50:49. > :50:51.lives of other people transformed, not by saying that you need to do
:50:52. > :50:59.this are you're not going to get to heaven. Would you like to be a June,
:51:00. > :51:06.because I have got the red person? You get a day off on Saturday every
:51:07. > :51:12.single week. Are you a man of faith? Yes. Is it about getting out there
:51:13. > :51:17.and touting for business, or is it about deeds, what you do for society
:51:18. > :51:21.and your community? For me, as a Christian, it is about living out
:51:22. > :51:26.your faith in a real and genuine way. The organisation I work for has
:51:27. > :51:30.a Christian response to poverty. At the beginning of the show we were
:51:31. > :51:33.talking about the massive inequalities in the world. How do we
:51:34. > :51:39.as Christians respond to the fact that 100 million people are living
:51:40. > :51:45.in poverty? If you look at the teachings of Christ, he says, love
:51:46. > :51:48.your neighbour as yourself. How do we live that owed on a global stage?
:51:49. > :52:01.THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE Do not start our son Leviticus. --
:52:02. > :52:06.start us on. Would you start a conversation with someone on a boss
:52:07. > :52:12.and tell them about Jesus? I would have a normal conversation about me
:52:13. > :52:14.and what my values are. If that goes into the realms of religion,
:52:15. > :52:18.and what my values are. If that goes You might slip it in on a bus
:52:19. > :52:20.journey? I am not looking to sell a product, I am looking to live
:52:21. > :52:24.journey? I am not looking to sell a life in an authentic way and have
:52:25. > :52:25.real conversations. Christianity spreads from one person to another,
:52:26. > :52:30.and it is not on the bus, spreads from one person to another,
:52:31. > :52:33.buy a pair of trousers, and you say, make sure they have strong knees,
:52:34. > :52:37.because I spend lots make sure they have strong knees,
:52:38. > :52:44.praying. That is not the approach. You have to have a real interest and
:52:45. > :52:49.love of people. This is the point. I wish faith groups would be more
:52:50. > :52:55.honest. They have got these beliefs, beliefs based on no evidence, but if
:52:56. > :52:58.you have a different approach to life, you get blocked out. The faith
:52:59. > :53:04.groups have life, you get blocked out. The faith
:53:05. > :53:09.and yet they abuse that by touting for business. The
:53:10. > :53:14.their parents have been blackmailed to get to those schools. That
:53:15. > :53:18.the early Christians did it. They got out there and spread the
:53:19. > :53:25.message. They did not downplay the achievements of Jesus. They may have
:53:26. > :53:31.hyped it up. Who knows? The lady there, what would you like to see?
:53:32. > :53:37.You have got a microphone. In Islam, by the Koran, it is said that by the
:53:38. > :53:47.end of time mankind is not lost except for those who believe. It
:53:48. > :53:52.sought one another. If you do not believe, are you doomed? No, this is
:53:53. > :53:57.a re-occurring theme that one applies to not only yourself, but
:53:58. > :54:04.those around. The reward is not upon the other person, rather so the
:54:05. > :54:12.benefit is upon them. Sorry, the reward lies with Allah, being God.
:54:13. > :54:14.This is how we Muslims see it. It is our duty to share the beautiful
:54:15. > :55:23.message of Islam. We live in a multicultural UK. It is
:55:24. > :55:28.important to nurture that. I have a conversation, if I have time. What I
:55:29. > :55:33.find so intriguing about this whole debate is we are willing to accept
:55:34. > :55:37.the marketplace of products, but not values. This is not about Foss, who
:55:38. > :55:45.is right or wrong, we have a world that is craving for meaning, craving
:55:46. > :55:48.for deepening in, religions, including my own. In the Jewish
:55:49. > :55:51.community we can be shy about it. We have so much wisdom and joy to
:55:52. > :55:56.offer. We should offer it in an open-minded way. There is nothing
:55:57. > :56:03.wrong with that. We can learn from each other and build great
:56:04. > :56:06.communities. Hello. If you believe in a product, service or ideology,
:56:07. > :56:10.it is your right to promote it, particularly if you believe it can
:56:11. > :56:16.benefit others the way it benefits you. I am a Muslim and proud of my
:56:17. > :56:21.faith, it benefits me immensely. I believe it can benefit other people
:56:22. > :56:27.as well. Given the right opportunity and contacts, I would promote my
:56:28. > :56:32.faith. Now, more so than ever before, it is imperative to promote
:56:33. > :56:36.the right message of Islam. There is a rise in Islamophobia, a
:56:37. > :56:43.misconception about Islam, Jude to the media. It is important that
:56:44. > :56:46.people speak out the true message of Islam, so people can have a better
:56:47. > :56:52.understanding and build their own judgments. Thank you very much. The
:56:53. > :56:56.gentle Mandera. I agree with the gentleman that if you have a strong
:56:57. > :57:00.religious belief and you want to spread the word, get out there. If
:57:01. > :57:07.you step out into the marketplace and speak out, you should be
:57:08. > :57:10.prepared to accept criticism and be challenged, and sometimes religion
:57:11. > :57:13.likes to spread the word, but if it is challenged...
:57:14. > :57:20.APPLAUSE Good morning. You do not need
:57:21. > :57:24.religion to be good. In this day and age, I do not see why it should have
:57:25. > :57:30.a special role. There are plenty of other organisations where the money
:57:31. > :57:34.could be spent, art projects, work projects, things to promote society.
:57:35. > :57:40.It is not a Christian country any more. With respect to the more
:57:41. > :57:45.liberal religious people, there is plenty of socialist humanism. I go
:57:46. > :57:47.to many events where people are atheists and they are decent people.
:57:48. > :57:54.I have been treated better there than by the clergy. The last 30
:57:55. > :58:01.seconds. 30 seconds for Jesus, what is the message? The messages that
:58:02. > :58:07.God loves you, add Jesus said, people will know you by your works.
:58:08. > :58:10.We have had discussion today about inequality, and we are just a few
:58:11. > :58:16.miles away from the biggest food bank in the country. It is shocking
:58:17. > :58:20.that people are hungry and children go to school tomorrow morning and
:58:21. > :58:27.they will be hungry. We should be looking after each other. God loves
:58:28. > :58:34.us and we should love each other. Canning John Sinclair, thank you
:58:35. > :58:41.very much. Thank you all very much. Next week, the Big Question will be
:58:42. > :58:45.in Cardiff. Goran spread the word. Goodbye, have good Sunday, and
:58:46. > :58:47.goodbye from everyone at The Big Questions.