:00:00. > :00:07.Today on The Big Questions: performing animals, the effects
:00:08. > :00:23.of motherly love, and the fairness of raising the pension age.
:00:24. > :00:29.Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions.
:00:30. > :00:31.Today we're live from Michaelston Community College in Cardiff.
:00:32. > :00:32.Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.
:00:33. > :00:42.Yesterday the House of Commons should have voted
:00:43. > :00:44.on a Private Member's Bill banning the use of wild animals,
:00:45. > :00:46.like lions, tigers, elephants or zebra in travelling circuses.
:00:47. > :00:52.But the Bill was blocked by a Tory backbencher - again.
:00:53. > :00:54.Despite overwhelming public support and political consensus,
:00:55. > :00:57.20 years of campaigning has yet to succeed in stopping wild animals
:00:58. > :01:04.But it's not just circuses that use animals to entertain people.
:01:05. > :01:05.Television dramas, films, and commercials all used trained
:01:06. > :01:13.And top variety shows have been won by performing dogs.
:01:14. > :01:16.Last week a Government report found that thousands of healthy greyhounds
:01:17. > :01:19.are killed every year as soon as their racing days are over.
:01:20. > :01:21.And around three horses die every week from injuries
:01:22. > :01:28.So, should animals be used in entertainment?
:01:29. > :01:36.Anthony Beck is with us, good morning. A circus owner and you are
:01:37. > :01:44.in charge with an evening with lions and tigers. A bit of kissing goes
:01:45. > :01:51.on, doesn't it? Might colleague and his lion enjoy a kiss at the end of
:01:52. > :01:58.the show. The audience love that? Yes, they do love seeing our
:01:59. > :02:06.animals. There are always more people inside the tent then outside
:02:07. > :02:11.protesting. It is a vocal minority. According to a poll in 2013, only
:02:12. > :02:19.10% would support wild animals in circuses and 80% are against. It is
:02:20. > :02:27.a global poll on the DEFRA websites... It is a poll from 2013.
:02:28. > :02:34.79% against tigers. A lot of people want to get rid of you. Day based
:02:35. > :02:38.the information on the fact that animals are mistreated. We base our
:02:39. > :02:41.show on showing people the living conditions, we are not a traditional
:02:42. > :02:49.circus with clowns and acrobats, it is about educating. So, they kiss
:02:50. > :02:55.and what else? It is based on natural movements, jumping up,
:02:56. > :02:57.sitting down. Every action are animals perform is natural. It is
:02:58. > :03:04.what they learn from their parents, from us, and the environmental
:03:05. > :03:08.changes. A lot of it, you have to agree, is based on the fact that
:03:09. > :03:14.people increasingly in the Western world find this an acceptable and
:03:15. > :03:16.demeaning, of the animals and us. SeaWorld is in big trouble and have
:03:17. > :03:25.to change their business plan. People find it unacceptable to see
:03:26. > :03:30.elephants in circuses. This could be your last roar very soon. I hope
:03:31. > :03:40.not. The reason people see it that way is that the media have dogma
:03:41. > :03:47.ties... No pun intended! Groups make a large profit out of the dogma. You
:03:48. > :03:51.make a large profit out of kissing lines. Yes, and it goes back into
:03:52. > :03:56.looking after the Lions. Animal rights groups make money out of
:03:57. > :04:01.campaigning. Never mind your little squabbles, let's talk about the
:04:02. > :04:07.issue. Diana, I know you are a great advocate of animals, you want to
:04:08. > :04:12.take eating meat out of the global habits, but on this particular
:04:13. > :04:20.issue, is it acceptable in 2016 to be kissing a tiger? And to have
:04:21. > :04:27.these majestic animals there for our entertainment in circuses? I think
:04:28. > :04:29.there is a civilising process where people say violence against animals
:04:30. > :04:33.is wrong and using them for entertainment is as Ashley wrong
:04:34. > :04:38.because people feel using them for entertainment is a trivial use of
:04:39. > :04:41.animals, and while they are different to domesticated animals,
:04:42. > :04:43.they suffer a great deal in captivity and when they are in
:04:44. > :04:47.different environments to their natural ones, even when you are
:04:48. > :04:53.talking about horses and dogs being killed, but is also a terrible use.
:04:54. > :04:57.Wild animals, even if they were not born in the wild? They should be
:04:58. > :05:01.kept until they die of natural causes but there should be no
:05:02. > :05:09.reading of wild animals and taking wild animals from the wild. --
:05:10. > :05:14.breeding. I do not agree with violence towards animals. Have you
:05:15. > :05:22.trained them? Weight use positive reinforcement. Praise and rewards.
:05:23. > :05:27.-- we. Bamboo garden canes with chicken on the end are used to lure
:05:28. > :05:34.the animals. We never chase of frightened the animals, to pull a
:05:35. > :05:40.tiger down, we encourage it with the sticks. You can try to dominate
:05:41. > :05:44.these animals all you want but wild animals will always be wild and they
:05:45. > :05:49.know they are not where they are meant to be. I have to correct you,
:05:50. > :05:55.they do not have the consciousness of the wild. We are talking about
:05:56. > :06:01.living dealing sentience animals who have feelings and the ability to
:06:02. > :06:04.feel pain. It is 2016, there are a million ways to entertain ourselves
:06:05. > :06:12.but do not involve... APPLAUSE I was at a lecture on the
:06:13. > :06:21.world expert on primates who has been looking for into it since 1961.
:06:22. > :06:25.They can sign up to 400 words, they have an inner life because they are
:06:26. > :06:33.closely related to us. Would you keep chimps and dress them up? Would
:06:34. > :06:38.you like to? It would be unacceptable but would you like to?
:06:39. > :06:39.I think it is perfectly fine as long as their needs are
:06:40. > :06:44.I think it is perfectly fine as long correctly, that is what it is about.
:06:45. > :06:55.An understanding of the animal's behaviour. Not as behaviour but...
:06:56. > :06:59.The veterinary Association has made it clear that a wild animal's needs
:07:00. > :07:06.cannot be met in a circus environment. On that point, a lot of
:07:07. > :07:14.people were shocked by the PG tips commercial on TV. Is this
:07:15. > :07:18.acceptable? No. Am I right in thinking that the act
:07:19. > :07:21.acceptable? No. Am I right in has been banned from England? No.
:07:22. > :07:26.Antony but you failed the licensing? has been banned from England? No.
:07:27. > :07:33.No, we passed five inspections by DEFRA. They wanted indoor space for
:07:34. > :07:37.our cats but we do not have to add more space because Arcade is twice
:07:38. > :07:40.the size and what is needed but we would have to convert some
:07:41. > :07:44.the size and what is needed but we space. We did not want to reduce the
:07:45. > :07:51.space for animals. So would you prefer to make profits above animal
:07:52. > :07:56.welfare? No. We have done countless investigations around the world...
:07:57. > :08:03.Do you make a profit? Emma Renaud, or we do not. We are currently
:08:04. > :08:10.working with governments in Latin America and we are airlifting
:08:11. > :08:15.animals to a sanctuary... That you did not give them. Because
:08:16. > :08:26.legislation has been banned in those countries, the UK is lagging behind
:08:27. > :08:31.Animal Defenders International putting all their raw sources behind
:08:32. > :08:38.this and it is not right in this time in age. Good morning, what
:08:39. > :08:43.would you like to say to us? I would like to talk about the condition you
:08:44. > :08:50.talk about, and there is another side to that, the negative side. You
:08:51. > :08:54.can focus on one or two quadrants, we used to be positive reinforcement
:08:55. > :08:57.behind it. You do but there is no guarantee that anybody else
:08:58. > :09:05.following that model is. That is why there is a regulation model. I am
:09:06. > :09:13.invested in this because when I was a child I wanted to be a killer
:09:14. > :09:19.whale trainer. Look at SeaWorld. Precisely. Ie Moved to California
:09:20. > :09:22.when I was 11 years old and I was keen for it and you can see the
:09:23. > :09:26.amount of ocean in that space. You look at the environment and
:09:27. > :09:30.community and then using them in a restricted tank, and some of the
:09:31. > :09:36.harm that can come to the animals but also be human that work with the
:09:37. > :09:41.animals. Moving to the west Coast changed my thinking on this. The
:09:42. > :09:45.world does seem to be changing and we have been bastions of social
:09:46. > :09:49.process in this country. What about the example to the rest of the
:09:50. > :09:53.world? If we carry on doing this, they sure you love your animals and
:09:54. > :09:58.treat them very well, but in other parts of the world, they do not. In
:09:59. > :10:05.the far east, it is just sickening. How can we lecture them if we are
:10:06. > :10:08.still in 2016 weight... We should be encouraging them to regulate the
:10:09. > :10:13.industry. Look at the horrific footage in nursing homes. Do we
:10:14. > :10:17.boycott nursing homes because some individuals do not respect the power
:10:18. > :10:27.they have? No, we regulate it. The same with schools. Some would say
:10:28. > :10:33.that is a good idea. Is this not about showing off the size of your
:10:34. > :10:38.machismo? Look at me, I am a master of the universe and I can control
:10:39. > :10:45.this majestic beast. For some individuals, it might be. For me, it
:10:46. > :10:49.is the relationship with the animal. I wanted to be a bet and then a
:10:50. > :10:54.zookeeper and it is the relationship between man and animal, it was so
:10:55. > :11:01.unique and special, I wanted that. -- vet. Is this not good for
:11:02. > :11:07.children to see animals reacting like this? Let us think about what
:11:08. > :11:11.it is to be a circus animal. If you are a lion or tiger or elephant, you
:11:12. > :11:15.are transported for hours on end and put in temporary accommodation.
:11:16. > :11:21.There is no possible way, even with the best will in the world, to have
:11:22. > :11:25.any level of animal welfare that is acceptable, but Animal Defenders
:11:26. > :11:30.have shown time and time again that actually those animals' lives are
:11:31. > :11:35.peppered with awful abuses and that is part of the training process.
:11:36. > :11:41.Everything we have seen has shown that the animals are trained through
:11:42. > :11:49.fear and intimidation. We have seen hooks, whips, beating, how is that
:11:50. > :11:52.acceptable for entertainment? It is positive reinforcement... I agree
:11:53. > :11:58.with you. Like the nursing homes, we cannot target an industry because of
:11:59. > :12:03.the actions of a few individuals. Some people just find it in this day
:12:04. > :12:10.and age unacceptable. Hello? Good morning. This is based on the belief
:12:11. > :12:19.that humans are above animals. APPLAUSE In this day and age, it is
:12:20. > :12:30.still such a medieval belief that we are better than a beast. What
:12:31. > :12:37.defines a beast? We are animals. Mammals have self-awareness. We are
:12:38. > :12:45.unique as humans. Speak for yourself! Mobile phones, the cars,
:12:46. > :12:51.the space age. We don't need it but we wanted. Animals have a basic need
:12:52. > :12:54.of survival. They can't form a constituent assembly and vote but
:12:55. > :12:59.they have qualities of love and the world that we have forgotten about.
:13:00. > :13:12.Let's talk about Merlin. Merlin is so bored by this debate! Merlin is a
:13:13. > :13:26.film star, isn't he, Martin? He was in the film called Ha-Ha Hairy. I
:13:27. > :13:34.got it wrong way round, it is like saying Humphrey Bogart Casablanca!
:13:35. > :13:37.The industry shows me and I never planned to go into the film industry
:13:38. > :13:41.with animals, it is something that happened by accident, and I would
:13:42. > :13:49.like to think that they have chosen me. -- chose. It is because of the
:13:50. > :13:53.passion I have on the welfare and well-being of the animals we work
:13:54. > :14:01.with. We supply dogs, cats, all domestic animals, wrapped as well.
:14:02. > :14:12.-- rats. They are all family pets that live within our home and we use
:14:13. > :14:16.them in theatre. Rats. They laugh when tickled apparently? They are
:14:17. > :14:23.affectionate and great pet, and have, like I say, we have them as
:14:24. > :14:28.family pets but in addition to pets, the use in film industry.
:14:29. > :14:36.But you wouldn't have wild animals? No, we've been asked many times for
:14:37. > :14:42.exotic and wild animals but we made a conscious decision not to go down
:14:43. > :14:50.that road. Do any of your animals, are they dressed up? No. We've come
:14:51. > :14:56.a long way since the westerns of the 1950s and '60s where a lot of horses
:14:57. > :15:00.died. Yes. I have to be honest, before getting into the film
:15:01. > :15:06.industry I used to compete with my dogs. Did they win? Sometimes. But
:15:07. > :15:10.the treatment of dogs within that is far worse than anything I've ever
:15:11. > :15:15.seen working on set with animals. And Merlin loves it, yes? Absolutely
:15:16. > :15:19.loves it. He's relaxed. Elisa, what's wrong with this? I'm glad
:15:20. > :15:27.that at the end of the day Merlin gets to go home and be a dog. But
:15:28. > :15:32.that's a far cry to what happens to animals at circumstances. They don't
:15:33. > :15:38.get that reprieve. They don't get to go back to their homes in the wild.
:15:39. > :15:42.All they have is a life of misery, boredom and suffering. There is no
:15:43. > :15:50.domestic animal on the planet that's natural. They are all bred from wild
:15:51. > :15:58.animals. But selective breeding from wolfs to dogs took thousands of
:15:59. > :16:08.years. Wild animals are still the same. An elephant will live in a
:16:09. > :16:13.family unit. They have social needs. Anne the elephant, the cruelty that
:16:14. > :16:17.was exposed there. Why did they... May I finish my point? Thank you. It
:16:18. > :16:22.is impossible for you to say that you are allowing those wild animals
:16:23. > :16:27.to have normal lives when you are con fining and beating them.
:16:28. > :16:32.Absolutely, an elephant has roaming and ranges of 20 kilometres day. How
:16:33. > :16:36.can that possibly be emulated within a captive environment?
:16:37. > :16:40.APPLAUSE. Elephants, horses, all animals in the wild will travel
:16:41. > :16:45.hundreds of miles sometimes. Not on the back of a truck though. Horses
:16:46. > :16:51.will travel hundreds of miles. People confine them to 8 foot by 8
:16:52. > :17:02.foot stables and put rugs on them and give them hay in nets. The thing
:17:03. > :17:08.about elephants, if anyone want to go elephant crushing, the only way
:17:09. > :17:11.to do that is to crush its spirit. Joyce, an expert on elephants
:17:12. > :17:18.differs with you on that. I go with her. Martin? The situation with
:17:19. > :17:22.circumstances, I've spoken to Anthony and I can see that he's got
:17:23. > :17:27.this strong passion for what he does. There is no question in my
:17:28. > :17:32.mind that he loves his animals. But my own personal choice is that I do
:17:33. > :17:37.feel, or I do conscious I will have a problem with having wild animals
:17:38. > :17:44.in that kind of situation. I don't mean this in anyway against you and
:17:45. > :17:56.what you do, but at the same time I do feel that circumstances e I do
:17:57. > :18:13.feel that circumstances and intos feel thattish
:18:14. > :18:17.So you see these amazing animals and you think, let December something
:18:18. > :18:21.about you think, let December something
:18:22. > :18:27.in the world, because they are such beautiful animals and we see them at
:18:28. > :18:32.places like Anthonies. We don't learn anything from animals by
:18:33. > :18:41.watching beaten, depressed animals in a circus. Why not observe them in
:18:42. > :18:47.their natural environment? You don't have to beat an animal to train one.
:18:48. > :18:52.I do think we violate their free will, because no elephant or lion
:18:53. > :18:54.has ever applied for a job at a circus.
:18:55. > :19:02.LAUGHTER. APPLAUSE. I do see this as a
:19:03. > :19:10.barbarity along with eating meat. You think it is a continuum? We
:19:11. > :19:14.should live alongside them, not as slave and Masters. I want to go
:19:15. > :19:19.that gentleman there. Good morning. If you say it is about loving the
:19:20. > :19:24.animals, would you still be doing it if there was no profit? Surely if
:19:25. > :19:28.you loved the animals you should be doing something more valuable with
:19:29. > :19:35.your time than exploiting them. APPLAUSE. One of the most successful
:19:36. > :19:41.Asian elephant conservation programmes on the planet is funded
:19:42. > :19:46.by a circus. But they pulled their elephants out of the circus. Oliver?
:19:47. > :19:51.I do think you are right that homosap yens are perhaps different
:19:52. > :19:54.from higher mammals because we have language, sophisticated capacity to
:19:55. > :19:59.manipulate the environment. That's why we are in control. Why we've
:20:00. > :20:05.ruined it. Exactly. At the end of the day if you were a lion or an
:20:06. > :20:13.elephant, would you rather be in a studio or a circus or in the wild?
:20:14. > :20:17.Definitely. Really? The wild, you've got poaching. Lions have gone
:20:18. > :20:23.extinct at an alarming rate. They live twice as long in captivity.
:20:24. > :20:29.They've got fresh food, fresh water... Diana, a quick word. Even
:20:30. > :20:36.if you never punish animals, keeping them in cages or areas that are not
:20:37. > :20:41.like their natural environment, that's a form of violence and we
:20:42. > :20:45.would that about humans. You are making this comparison with nursing
:20:46. > :20:49.homes. Elderly people, dogs and cats, humans are Dommest dated as
:20:50. > :20:55.well, they have a natural environment that's dedifferent from
:20:56. > :21:00.wild animals. Maybe wild lions and tigers don't live as long in the
:21:01. > :21:03.wild, but it is less violent than keeping them in activity. Thank you
:21:04. > :21:10.everybody for your contributions. If you have something
:21:11. > :21:11.to say about that debate, log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions,
:21:12. > :21:14.where you'll find links to join We're also debating live this
:21:15. > :21:25.morning from Cardiff: the mothering or the
:21:26. > :21:27.mother that matters? So get tweeting or emailing on those
:21:28. > :21:32.topics now, or send us any other ideas or thoughts you may have
:21:33. > :21:35.about the programme. It's Mothering Sunday,
:21:36. > :21:37.so I hope all you mothers are being waited on hand
:21:38. > :21:39.and foot and showered Today in churches, children
:21:40. > :21:44.will thank God for their mother's care, her patience when tested,
:21:45. > :21:47.her love when tired, her hope when despairing
:21:48. > :21:50.and her service without limit. Well, enjoy it while it lasts,
:21:51. > :21:53.because on the other 364 days of the year, the cry
:21:54. > :21:57."I blame the mother" Society so often holds mothers
:21:58. > :22:03.responsible for all the faults and misdemeanours of their children,
:22:04. > :22:05.even after they've grown up. But now some scientists say
:22:06. > :22:07.we are just as much, perhaps more, the product
:22:08. > :22:11.of our genetic inheritance from our parents, irrespective
:22:12. > :22:14.of how good or bad their care was. So is it the mothering
:22:15. > :22:26.or the mother that matters? Oliver, you've written this book,
:22:27. > :22:31.Not in Your Genes, which caused a stir. People have said you are a
:22:32. > :22:36.science denier, that you are ignoring the scientific evidence.
:22:37. > :22:42.How much do genes maketh the man or the woman? When it comes to physical
:22:43. > :22:46.characteristics the Human Genome Project has shown that things like
:22:47. > :22:50.height or eye colour are influenced by genes. But the extraordinary
:22:51. > :22:54.fact, and this is a fact, it is not my opinion, there aren't any
:22:55. > :22:57.scientists who can dispute this, is that the scientists agree there is
:22:58. > :23:03.something called the missing heartability. By that they mean
:23:04. > :23:09.they've only been able to find genes which explain about 1 to 5% of
:23:10. > :23:14.psychological rates, intelligence, mental health, personality. In other
:23:15. > :23:18.words 95-99% of what we are like appears to be, as the evidence
:23:19. > :23:23.stands at the moment, not in your genes. That's why I called the book
:23:24. > :23:30.that name. How interesting. So it is far more of it from environment and
:23:31. > :23:35.nurture than you would suppose? You have to be wary of leaping to think
:23:36. > :23:38.that's all nurture. What happens in pregnancy has a big effect. There is
:23:39. > :23:43.no question that some people are born with a brain abnormality that
:23:44. > :23:47.causes autism. However, there is no doubt at all, as I set out in my
:23:48. > :23:51.book, that for example with something as extreme as
:23:52. > :23:54.schizophrenia, whereas there's virtually no evidence that genes
:23:55. > :23:59.play any role in that whatsoever. There's a huge amount of evidence
:24:00. > :24:05.that nurture does. So for example if you suffered child mall treatment
:24:06. > :24:13.like physical or sexual abuse or emotional abuse, if you suffered
:24:14. > :24:19.five or more kinds of child mall treatment, when you are grown up you
:24:20. > :24:26.are 1993 times more likely to be schizophrenic. Bipolar as well. So
:24:27. > :24:30.does the nurturing change the biochemistry? That's exactly how it
:24:31. > :24:34.works. In the early years, the crucial period, the first six years.
:24:35. > :24:39.It is not all about mothers. The way you phrased the question, and it is
:24:40. > :24:50.not about blame. You will electrochemistry in the first six
:24:51. > :25:01.years is established, the levels of court doll. -- cortisol. What is
:25:02. > :25:10.absolutely clear is that nurture is extremely important. That is for
:25:11. > :25:17.sure. You were nodding vigorously. I believe we are 5% nature and 95%...
:25:18. > :25:22.We are like a piece of plasticine which is handed to parents to mould
:25:23. > :25:25.and shape. My nursing career was looking after sick newborn babies,
:25:26. > :25:30.for 22 years. There are people who will say about individuals, that
:25:31. > :25:36.person was born evil. I occasionally used to stand in the nursery and
:25:37. > :25:41.look at six or eight babies and say, according to these people, there's a
:25:42. > :25:45.chance this one of you is evil. And if it is that random it could be my
:25:46. > :25:49.children, it could be my grandchildren. We are a blank slate.
:25:50. > :25:57.Absolutely. What's your name? Angela. Sorry I came to you all of a
:25:58. > :26:03.sudden. I want to come to Diana. You were nodding vigorously but Diana is
:26:04. > :26:08.the opposite. It's face palming. I read most of your book yesterday and
:26:09. > :26:15.I would say that you are taking the human genome project and saying
:26:16. > :26:19.there hasn't been a one to one correspondence with genes with no
:26:20. > :26:35.characteristics and saying there is no heartability. There is
:26:36. > :26:40.genome-wide complex analysis. They find that people who've correlations
:26:41. > :26:45.with genes have correlations with psychology. If it was true it was
:26:46. > :26:51.mostly nurture you wouldn't be able to breed dogs or other animals to
:26:52. > :26:55.have certain temperaments. And you are saying that physical
:26:56. > :26:59.characteristics are genetic and psychological ones are not and that
:27:00. > :27:04.seems to be a dualism. It is not about dualism. If you think about
:27:05. > :27:08.your project, when you are born as baby, is to attract the resources of
:27:09. > :27:12.your parents. We have the longest period of dependents of any species
:27:13. > :27:17.on our parents. If you are going to survive you have to find a niche
:27:18. > :27:21.that attracts your parents. If you were born very plastic, I wouldn't
:27:22. > :27:25.say a clean slate, as a third of babies are born difficult because of
:27:26. > :27:29.the pregnancy. If you are born plastic and flexible you have a much
:27:30. > :27:34.greater chance. In my case for example I was one of four and I had
:27:35. > :27:43.three sisters. Sisters. Purely because of what was between my legs
:27:44. > :27:51.when I was born, my father treated me differently to my sisters. Diana,
:27:52. > :27:55.as a respect admired evolutionary psychologist with PhDs and
:27:56. > :28:00.everything, if you had been born in challenging circumstances in a slum
:28:01. > :28:02.in Mumbai and you hadn't had a supportive family, would have
:28:03. > :28:07.everything against you in early life, hour would you have turned
:28:08. > :28:12.out? There's a dig difference between saying that hinges are her
:28:13. > :28:15.itable and saying that being effected or abused doesn't matter.
:28:16. > :28:23.Being effected or abused does matter. If I take my smartphone and
:28:24. > :28:26.drop it six storeys it breaks. That doesn't mean I'm responsible for how
:28:27. > :28:31.it works or anything about it. Neglect and abuse does have a bad
:28:32. > :28:37.influence in terms of keeping people from being able to make their
:28:38. > :28:38.genetic potential. I do think that personality, intelligence and other
:28:39. > :28:44.characteristics, including personality, intelligence and other
:28:45. > :28:47.determined. As an evolutionary psychologist, the way
:28:48. > :28:48.determined. As an evolutionary supposed to work, you have
:28:49. > :28:55.particular patterns of DNA, supposed to work, you have
:28:56. > :28:59.genes, which are coded for particular amino acids, coded for
:29:00. > :29:02.particular proteins which resulted in schizophrenia, being clever or
:29:03. > :29:08.normal, whatever. That isn't what the science has shown. Do we agree
:29:09. > :29:16.about that? Do we agree about that? No. There's a massive missing her
:29:17. > :29:20.itability. In 2009 in nature all the scientists published a paper saying
:29:21. > :29:24.there's a massive missing her itability. Are you saying they are
:29:25. > :29:31.wrong? You are being confusing on purpose. What the twin studies found
:29:32. > :29:35.and what the gene studies found. Is there a big gap?
:29:36. > :29:45.Just because we don't know the gene, doesn't mean it isn't heritable. If
:29:46. > :29:49.the mother has a year of extra education and adopt a child, for
:29:50. > :29:56.every year of extra education she has, her child only games five weeks
:29:57. > :29:59.of extra education. Twin studies are trumped by... Let me say this... You
:30:00. > :30:05.also have taken that out of context trumped by... Let me say this... You
:30:06. > :30:08.massively. Eileen, sorry? Missing doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
:30:09. > :30:13.massively. Eileen, sorry? Missing also means it has been found yet.
:30:14. > :30:20.The balanced view is that there is inheritable data on both sides of
:30:21. > :30:26.the equation. -- empirical data. Nature and nurture. If you sit back
:30:27. > :30:31.and say to any mum of a fully formed adult child, did you make that
:30:32. > :30:36.child? Did you and your husband single-handedly with every word you
:30:37. > :30:44.said, form that child? I don't think many parents would say, yes! Yes, we
:30:45. > :30:48.did it. I think increasingly people look at their children and say,
:30:49. > :30:53.where did you come from? Who is that?! I am adopted, you have
:30:54. > :30:56.adopted children. I have three adopted children. Is it nurture or
:30:57. > :31:03.nature? I think every child adopted children. Is it nurture or
:31:04. > :31:05.the family with their own set of temperaments, their own
:31:06. > :31:09.characteristics, their own potential, but that is not to say
:31:10. > :31:10.that you can influence because you can provide opportunities and you
:31:11. > :31:15.can encourage, but all the way can provide opportunities and you
:31:16. > :31:18.through it is a debate and compromise between what I would like
:31:19. > :31:26.and what the child would like given their own genetic history.
:31:27. > :31:32.Interesting. Sarah from Mothers at Home Matter. We were saying earlier
:31:33. > :31:39.on if you don't mind me quoting you on the battlefield, you said that
:31:40. > :31:44.nurture is everything. I think that you have to do start off with good
:31:45. > :31:48.foundations to realise your potential. If you lack nurture or
:31:49. > :31:54.emerge from your childhood is insecure with problems, mental
:31:55. > :31:58.worries and things like that, you are not able to function as fully as
:31:59. > :32:03.you would have had you been properly nurtured. The fundamental thing,
:32:04. > :32:08.whatever the rights and wrongs of the debate, is that you have two
:32:09. > :32:12.provide security for your children and give them confidence so they can
:32:13. > :32:21.function fully, and that is to do with nurture. Now we see that people
:32:22. > :32:25.are very different parents. This nurture idea makes parents less
:32:26. > :32:28.likely to have children because they think it is a lots of work and it
:32:29. > :32:34.makes people more anxious about how their kids turn out. You may say it
:32:35. > :32:38.is not a brain gain but in the 50s, children were the product of
:32:39. > :32:45.refrigerated mothers. Why are you saying it, you are trying to smear
:32:46. > :32:49.what I am saying? No, but I do not think people will have any other
:32:50. > :32:52.intimidation. What I'm saying is fantastically positive and there is
:32:53. > :32:56.scientific evidence saying that if people do not leave their children's
:32:57. > :33:05.abilities are fixed, they are likely to change for the better. Just by
:33:06. > :33:11.giving children lessons in the idea yes, OK... If they believe their
:33:12. > :33:19.mental illness is fixed, it is less likely genetics... I am fortunate
:33:20. > :33:22.because I have twins as grandchildren and from the very day
:33:23. > :33:27.they were born as babies, they were born with individual personalities.
:33:28. > :33:34.Identical twins? No. One boy and one girl. As they grew up, you could
:33:35. > :33:37.tell from the first days, they had their own personality, and they have
:33:38. > :33:42.grown up, and amazingly, the girl is very much animal orientated, she has
:33:43. > :33:49.a rapport with animals, her own personality, and the Rory is very
:33:50. > :33:55.much not so keen on animals and has a different personality. -- Boyet.
:33:56. > :34:06.They are free now and they had the same nurture. Is that nurture? One
:34:07. > :34:10.boy and one goal are going to be massively different because they
:34:11. > :34:17.only share some of the genes. -- girl. Identical twins reared very
:34:18. > :34:22.similar to twins reared together which is not what you would expect
:34:23. > :34:25.from nurture. Back to Merlin, I do not understand why Oliver is saying
:34:26. > :34:36.that in animals genes can make up our whole lot of personality. But
:34:37. > :34:41.not in humans. Before you answer that, I want to ask you about the
:34:42. > :34:47.so-called gauging. A lady had a hand up. Good morning. My main concern is
:34:48. > :34:51.about pain dangerous it is if we focus on genes. -- how dangerous. I
:34:52. > :34:56.work with a little boy with speech and language delays, and obviously
:34:57. > :34:59.those are his jeans and he cannot help that but what his parents are
:35:00. > :35:07.doing and what I am doing is providing a nurturing environment
:35:08. > :35:11.for him. Genes maybe someone's hurdles but they are not
:35:12. > :35:15.insurmountable. The focus should be on nurturing a good environment by
:35:16. > :35:24.parents and by society and the government. We talk about the
:35:25. > :35:31.inherent dangers in this, Oliver, but what about the gauging? Gay
:35:32. > :35:35.friends say they were absolutely gay from the moment they were conscious
:35:36. > :35:40.of themselves and had subconsciousness and self-awareness.
:35:41. > :35:51.If it is purely environment, is that not Manna from Heaven? If it is all
:35:52. > :35:56.environment, in Banjul is that, that knocks the ball into their court. --
:35:57. > :36:05.evangelistic. As far as we can tell, there is no evidence so far that it
:36:06. > :36:10.is genes. I'm not saying what it is. What you think? There is a theory
:36:11. > :36:15.and evidence that if you have older brothers and you are younger, you
:36:16. > :36:20.are more likely to be gay. There is evidence for that, and the
:36:21. > :36:25.possibility that it is transmitted with testosterone in the womb. There
:36:26. > :36:29.are other physical mechanisms by which transformation can take place.
:36:30. > :36:34.The key point and I can never understand why we are discussing
:36:35. > :36:38.homosexuality at all, why we have this fascination with white some
:36:39. > :36:42.people like to do certain things with each other. No one discusses
:36:43. > :36:51.why heterosexuals like to have certain positions in sex and that is
:36:52. > :36:59.next week! 10am on a Sunday morning! We can learn a lot from this. If one
:37:00. > :37:06.is gay, the other brother is only likely to be 50% gay. I horrified my
:37:07. > :37:10.ex-boyfriend's father by saying this at because he has ten older brothers
:37:11. > :37:15.but in terms of epigenetic inference, that is influence at
:37:16. > :37:19.birth, if two boys share the same amniotic sac in the womb, and they
:37:20. > :37:24.are both more likely to be gay and that might mean there is some sort
:37:25. > :37:27.of environment influence on homosexuality, and I think
:37:28. > :37:31.homosexuality is interesting, I disagree with Oliver on that point.
:37:32. > :37:37.It is interesting why some people engage in non-reproductive behaviour
:37:38. > :37:45.exclusively. Which we see across the animal kingdom. It is a matter of
:37:46. > :37:47.bonding. We know that. I think it is self-evidently nature and nurture
:37:48. > :37:51.but too much focus is put on the nature sides at expense of what
:37:52. > :37:56.happens in the early years when a child is brought up. That and
:37:57. > :38:02.justify some of the inequalities as if some wings are natural. Have that
:38:03. > :38:09.experience? I spent a lot of my childhood with my grandmother and I
:38:10. > :38:15.left school at 17 with not many qualifications, I ended up going
:38:16. > :38:20.back to college at 21 and that cost money because I was over 19 and I
:38:21. > :38:23.could only do that because my grandmother had the money to help me
:38:24. > :38:27.through college. That was nurture and if I had been from a poor
:38:28. > :38:32.family, there is no way I could have done that. Also, if you look at the
:38:33. > :38:36.top of society and the professions in our country, there was a report a
:38:37. > :38:41.few weeks ago which showed that in some of the jobs, 50 or 60% of these
:38:42. > :38:45.people went to private school. Those people are not in those jobs because
:38:46. > :38:48.they are necessarily naturally gifted, they are in positions there
:38:49. > :38:52.because they were born into families with a great deal of wealth. I
:38:53. > :38:56.think, yes, nature plays a role but I think we shouldn't at all
:38:57. > :39:05.underestimate the impact that money can have. Would Boris and Dave B at
:39:06. > :39:11.the top... That is the question. I did a programme which reunites
:39:12. > :39:15.people and a lot of people said they wanted to meet their birth relatives
:39:16. > :39:19.because they said they wanted to meet a birth relative who is like
:39:20. > :39:25.me. Can you understand that? That is very natural. We want to know where
:39:26. > :39:34.we have come from. We want to know what our siblings are like. Can I
:39:35. > :39:39.say something else? We are talking so much about the science of this
:39:40. > :39:43.and today is Mothering Sunday. Mothers do a fantastic job and this
:39:44. > :39:47.lady is talking about how they are helping the little boy with speech
:39:48. > :39:51.and language difficulties. Whatever the characteristics they are born
:39:52. > :39:57.with, whatever the problems are, the mother is in a position to help the
:39:58. > :40:00.child bring them through difficulties and launch them in
:40:01. > :40:06.their lives, and mothers need support and help and appreciation,
:40:07. > :40:10.and we don't do that enough in society where we are always trying
:40:11. > :40:14.to get them out of the workplace and telling them that their time at home
:40:15. > :40:17.is not valuable. We need to value mothers because they are the crucial
:40:18. > :40:21.thing in the lives of those children and it is our future generation, the
:40:22. > :40:28.people who will look after us and we are old, they are the ones who will
:40:29. > :40:32.grow up and be doctors or teachers. We do not value bringing them up
:40:33. > :40:47.enough. APPLAUSE. We don't value is mothers
:40:48. > :40:50.enough. -- value the mothers. You have slam dunked it, Sarah. Thank
:40:51. > :40:53.you very much indeed, that was the last word.
:40:54. > :40:56.You can join in all this morning's debates by logging
:40:57. > :40:58.on to bbc.co.uk/the big questions then following the link
:40:59. > :41:01.Or you can tweet using the hashtag bbctbq.
:41:02. > :41:03.Tell us what you think about our last Big Question too:
:41:04. > :41:08.And if you'd like to be in the audience at a future
:41:09. > :41:11.We're in Glasgow next week, Brighton on 20th March,
:41:12. > :41:17.and then after a break for Easter we're in York on 3rd April.
:41:18. > :41:25.This week the Government dropped a bombshell on the retirement plans
:41:26. > :41:29.There is to be a review of the state pension age from 2028.
:41:30. > :41:32.And bets are on that it will rise to at least 70.
:41:33. > :41:38.If you were born after 1961 you will already have seen the age
:41:39. > :41:45.if you are a man, and from 60 to 67 if you are a woman.
:41:46. > :41:47.The problem facing all future governments is that there will be
:41:48. > :41:51.too many older people and not enough younger workers paying taxes
:41:52. > :41:52.and national insurance to support them.
:41:53. > :42:01.Beth, president of the NUS in Wales, it is going to come
:42:02. > :42:06.Beth, president of the NUS in Wales, it? It is good that young people
:42:07. > :42:10.focus on this, vital. I remember thinking a long time ago that it is
:42:11. > :42:16.never going to come or happen, why should I bother? You are going to
:42:17. > :42:19.live longer, your generation. More of your generation spent longer in
:42:20. > :42:24.education, diseases that we are now suffering from will be curable and
:42:25. > :42:31.treatable, we can't afford not to change. I think often there is a
:42:32. > :42:36.debate focusing on life expectancy and we talk about it increasing and
:42:37. > :42:37.people having to work longer. A healthy life expectancy is not
:42:38. > :42:40.necessarily increasing and healthy life expectancy is not
:42:41. > :42:44.generation is the first to be worse stop than my parents. We're not
:42:45. > :42:51.seeing the social mobility that previous generations did. -- worse
:42:52. > :42:55.off. We have increasing debt from university, much higher than our
:42:56. > :42:59.older generation which means we will not be able to save for this
:43:00. > :43:03.pension. More people are going to university than ever before and are
:43:04. > :43:07.more educated than before and healthier than before. But that does
:43:08. > :43:13.not mean we will be having high levels of debt in future life. We
:43:14. > :43:17.should be saving 50% of our income to have a comfortable pension to
:43:18. > :43:22.live. My generation are coming out with massive levels of debt meaning
:43:23. > :43:26.we cannot save as much as we need to be to have a comfortable retirement.
:43:27. > :43:31.The problem is that my generation are not aware of the requirements of
:43:32. > :43:39.pensions, we're not coming out of education with the finances. In my
:43:40. > :43:41.mind, it is we are going to work longer, the government should be
:43:42. > :43:45.investing in adequate financial education select everybody that
:43:46. > :43:50.leads school understands what taxes and pensions are.
:43:51. > :44:01.APPLAUSE It is everywhere. You are students, education is there. We can
:44:02. > :44:04.look it up. Your map and you need to be spoon-fed? We can look it up on
:44:05. > :44:07.the Internet that the state should take responsibility for future
:44:08. > :44:09.generations. If they expect us to live longer, they should invest
:44:10. > :44:15.money into educating young people and supporting them to get through
:44:16. > :44:22.life. David? The International longevity Centre? Oh, I beg your
:44:23. > :44:27.pardon. Perfect. I agree with what Beth said that the key point is that
:44:28. > :44:31.this longer life expectancy is so dramatic, it is revolution in
:44:32. > :44:35.longevity. Every ten years, life expectancy increases by 2.5 years.
:44:36. > :44:44.At the moment, there are 15,000 people over 100. When I get to 100,
:44:45. > :44:48.if I do, in 2059, there will be 380,000 people over that age. The
:44:49. > :44:54.number of centenarians will increase by 25 fold. This is one
:44:55. > :44:58.illustration. The point that that is making is that it is not just about
:44:59. > :45:02.education, it is about what we are doing to our younger people. We are
:45:03. > :45:08.making them into a generation and forcing them to page wishing fees,
:45:09. > :45:12.to pay high housing costs, giving them insecure jobs.
:45:13. > :45:19.Why is raising the pension age fair? It is very much fair, because the
:45:20. > :45:22.younger generation are spending less to support the older generation,
:45:23. > :45:26.because the older generation will work for longer. The problem is
:45:27. > :45:30.we've taken too long to raise it. It is too low already and we are doing
:45:31. > :45:35.it rather late in the day. We've got a whole generation of essentially
:45:36. > :45:44.baby-boomers who've retired too early. What about the generation
:45:45. > :45:49.that set up the welfare state - beverage, Attlee. They would be
:45:50. > :45:55.turning in their grave. This would be at the core of the welfare state.
:45:56. > :46:02.No, they set up a safety net to cover the last few years of your
:46:03. > :46:07.life, not half your life. The idea was as civilisation developed and
:46:08. > :46:10.automation happened, we would be working less. British full-time
:46:11. > :46:15.workers work some of the longest hours in Western Europe. When we
:46:16. > :46:19.talk about average life expectancy we are talking about two different
:46:20. > :46:24.poles. In London the wealthiest people live up to 25 years longer
:46:25. > :46:28.than the people living in the poorest parts of London. In Glasgow
:46:29. > :46:34.for example life expectancy is still in the 50s. We say life expectancy
:46:35. > :46:39.is around 80 years old, but the average healthy life expectancy is
:46:40. > :46:44.still 63. You are less likely to be healthy in work if you have one of
:46:45. > :46:49.the much harder jobs. It is easy for middle class people to say I think
:46:50. > :46:54.we should work until we are 80, 85 or 90, but if you are in a manual
:46:55. > :46:58.job where you are going to have less life expectancy anyway, I don't
:46:59. > :47:03.think we should be telling some of the poorest people in society, in
:47:04. > :47:05.one of the wealthiest countries in the world, they should work until
:47:06. > :47:11.they drop. APPLAUSE. I think what's missing
:47:12. > :47:16.from this discussion is we are ignoring the fact that jobs are a
:47:17. > :47:20.finite resource. If I'm working until I'm 70 and everybody else is,
:47:21. > :47:22.the National Union of Students won't be there, because we are filling
:47:23. > :47:27.that gap. APPLAUSE. Dave, from the
:47:28. > :47:32.International Longevity Centre. Research conducted by the centre
:47:33. > :47:36.found that those areas where there are more older people employed,
:47:37. > :47:48.there are more younger people employed. If everyone leaves the
:47:49. > :47:54.workforce at state pension age, 12.5 million people leaving the workforce
:47:55. > :47:58.but only 7 million young people entering it, we'll have a major
:47:59. > :48:02.workforce deficit and companies won't be able to get the people they
:48:03. > :48:07.need to move their businesses forward. This assumes that there'll
:48:08. > :48:14.be Joshes for everybody, but if you are asking generations to work
:48:15. > :48:18.longer there had to be an understanding what what's suitable
:48:19. > :48:25.work. Work. Manual labour, firefighters, nurses, there'll come
:48:26. > :48:31.a time where they can't work. Upskilling and retaining, so people
:48:32. > :48:35.who've reached the age where they can't continue could re-enter... If
:48:36. > :48:38.you are an adult that wants to return to education, the Welsh
:48:39. > :48:43.Government have decimated adult community learning. If you want to
:48:44. > :48:49.reskill and retrain you couldn't. I agree, but what we are talking about
:48:50. > :48:55.is social justice, fairness. There are two ways of looking at fairness,
:48:56. > :48:59.one is rich and poor, but the other dimension of social justice is
:49:00. > :49:03.between old and young. It seems to me that we've got it wrong. In terms
:49:04. > :49:08.of social justice between generations, and my generation as a
:49:09. > :49:12.baby-boomer has taken too much and the younger generations have been
:49:13. > :49:16.given too little. One part of that is we've retired too early and we've
:49:17. > :49:21.promised ourselves pensions which are unaffordable. That's true
:49:22. > :49:24.whether to its public sector employees or the private sector. I
:49:25. > :49:28.want to comment about the cost issue. If you don't increase the
:49:29. > :49:33.state pension age you have to maybe have more money going into the state
:49:34. > :49:39.pension to fintd or maybe not have a pension for everyone. Maybe it is
:49:40. > :49:45.only for these who need it. We'll get the microphone to you. Both of
:49:46. > :49:49.my parents retired early, and at my age, seeing it on the news all the
:49:50. > :49:58.time about our ageing population, I think you can educate yourself.
:49:59. > :50:04.There's so much out there to say, it annoys me. I want to retire knowing
:50:05. > :50:10.that the pension age might be raiseded in my lifetime. I might
:50:11. > :50:14.have to get rich. I think the concept of retirement is flawed.
:50:15. > :50:18.Really? Yes. I think people should work throughout their whole lives,
:50:19. > :50:22.but the younger generation are going to bear the biggest brunt, because
:50:23. > :50:26.firms and businesses are reluctant to hire new workers. I think the
:50:27. > :50:31.keep the older generation economically active everyone should
:50:32. > :50:35.work reduced hours. What about that, work for your entire lives? I don't
:50:36. > :50:38.know why we've lost the idea there should be a point in your life where
:50:39. > :50:43.you are Lincolnshire rated from work, where you've put in your
:50:44. > :50:48.shift, you've paid into the welfare state, your whole life shouldn't be
:50:49. > :50:52.based around a job which in many cases you don't even like in the
:50:53. > :50:55.first place. There's a lack of respect for older people in our
:50:56. > :51:02.society? I do think we are a very rich society. The problem is that
:51:03. > :51:06.automation and the machine economy instead of benefitting workers, I
:51:07. > :51:10.think it's increased profits for what we call the 1%. So the richest
:51:11. > :51:15.people in our society have done very well out of that but that's not been
:51:16. > :51:21.reflected in leisure time for workers. Good point. I feel like a
:51:22. > :51:26.lot of people... How old are you? 22. Do you think about retirement,
:51:27. > :51:31.about your pension? It is a difficult thing to get your head
:51:32. > :51:34.around, but it does creep across my mind. I was thinking that a lot of
:51:35. > :51:38.older people use the years after they retire when they are still
:51:39. > :51:43.mobile and everything to volunteer and contribute to society in other
:51:44. > :51:47.ways. Will we not lose out massively in that if we are making people work
:51:48. > :51:53.up until they can't even move any more? That's a good point.
:51:54. > :51:57.APPLAUSE. My mum, she's 93 and I rang her and said, what have you
:51:58. > :52:06.been doing? She said, I've been helping out with the old people.
:52:07. > :52:13.LAUGHTER. After Thatcherism, the insane obsession with housing, so
:52:14. > :52:17.she sold off the housing stock and liberalised mortgages and people
:52:18. > :52:24.think they own their house but it is owned by the mortgage company. We've
:52:25. > :52:29.also spread our legs in London to foreign and foreign capital
:52:30. > :52:42.Ors comes in and the London housing market is massively up. The other
:52:43. > :52:47.problem is a simple one, after Thatcherism, Blatcherism and he was
:52:48. > :52:52.just as bad as Thatcher, if not worse, sold off tul the playing
:52:53. > :52:57.fields. The average chief executive in this country earns 123 times the
:52:58. > :53:04.amount of his average worker. His pension, he doesn't have a problem
:53:05. > :53:12.with his pension. He can retire at 55 on massive pension. So let's
:53:13. > :53:17.introduce into this discussion the structural reasons why somebody, the
:53:18. > :53:22.NUS representative there, it is easy to get bogged down into the minutiae
:53:23. > :53:28.of it. Let's be clear this is dead political. We need a radical change
:53:29. > :53:29.in society. We need to become much more like the Scandinavian
:53:30. > :53:34.societies, they don't more like the Scandinavian
:53:35. > :53:35.like these problems, even though they have a welfare state, and the
:53:36. > :53:40.expense and so on. One of the things they have a welfare state, and the
:53:41. > :53:44.they do is make the state pension means tested the, or an element of
:53:45. > :53:49.it. The problem at the moment is we are giving out welfare to wealthy
:53:50. > :53:53.older people who don't need it. We are giving them lthy older people
:53:54. > :53:56.who don't need it. We are giving them all sorts of things - winter
:53:57. > :54:02.fuel allowance, free bus passes, free prescriptions. It doesn't seem
:54:03. > :54:04.fair for younger people to be struggling and suffering while older
:54:05. > :54:08.people are getting this largesse. The other option is to stop us
:54:09. > :54:12.living so long. Stop all these health campaigns about the obesity
:54:13. > :54:17.crisis and say, no, carry on smoking. Have a drink! That's the
:54:18. > :54:23.way to do at this time, put that in your manifesto. I don't really want
:54:24. > :54:28.to go there. Another flip side of this argument is it is an argument
:54:29. > :54:31.for emigration. You have often the people who are most hostile to
:54:32. > :54:35.immigration from Europe tend to be older people and it is younger
:54:36. > :54:39.immigrants who contribute the most. One of the most to our economy, so
:54:40. > :54:44.they tend to pay in a lot more than they take out. In many instances
:54:45. > :54:48.young Eastern Europeans coming to Britain to work are paying for the
:54:49. > :54:53.indigenous British people's pensions in future. That's another thing we
:54:54. > :54:58.should talk about. There are other views on Brexit, can I just say at
:54:59. > :55:04.this point? And we'll be addressing some of those with impeccable and
:55:05. > :55:07.unimpeachable balance in the next few weeks, you naughty man! The lady
:55:08. > :55:13.at the back, your second appearance. Hello. I was picking up on the
:55:14. > :55:18.point, do we continue to work for the rest of our lives. My dad
:55:19. > :55:26.dragged himself to pension age. My mum's here. Happy Mothering Sunday.
:55:27. > :55:34.What's your name? Anne. Happy Mothering Sunday to Anne everybody.
:55:35. > :55:37.APPLAUSE. My dad dragged himself to retirement age through illness and
:55:38. > :55:42.absolutely everything you could have thrown at him. Two years after
:55:43. > :55:48.retiring, having put into this pension, he then died. We have to be
:55:49. > :55:52.really careful about extending this age for men and for women. We have
:55:53. > :55:58.health issues to think about first and foremost.
:55:59. > :56:03.APPLAUSE. Absolutely. It is only fair to raise the state pension age
:56:04. > :56:07.to enable people to be able to work up to that point. What measure
:56:08. > :56:13.insist To address health issues and some of the massive regional health
:56:14. > :56:17.inequalities in our country we can promote greater health literacy, and
:56:18. > :56:22.a bigger issue about raising the state pension age, the people aged
:56:23. > :56:26.50 and 64 who are out of work but would like to work. More than 1
:56:27. > :56:31.million people have been forced out of work through ill health,
:56:32. > :56:35.redundancy and early retirement. We want to follow good practise by
:56:36. > :56:39.agencies who are adapting working patterns and roles and adapting
:56:40. > :56:44.their workplaces to allow people to be able to work longer. Barclays is
:56:45. > :56:48.actively looking to recruit older people, as they believe they are
:56:49. > :56:54.more reliable, more efficient and bring expertise. Shouldn't we
:56:55. > :56:59.address the inequality question first. Why should somebody in a poor
:57:00. > :57:06.town in Scotland and dies in their 50s work their whole life to pay for
:57:07. > :57:10.the pension of someone who is very wealthal wealthy?
:57:11. > :57:13.APPLAUSE. We should tackle the inequalities or it is profoundly
:57:14. > :57:27.unfair. Would you buy the argument that in the future 07 07 70 will be
:57:28. > :57:32.the new 50? The differences are so vast. The life expectancy in areas
:57:33. > :57:36.of highest deprivation is so different. 25 years in London for
:57:37. > :57:39.example. What you are doing is suggesting that maybe people should
:57:40. > :57:43.save for themselves rather than be in a collective scheme. Once you
:57:44. > :57:48.move towards this individual pension saving, which is what we've done
:57:49. > :57:50.with autoenrolment and the nest saving, when you move towards
:57:51. > :57:56.individual saving rather than collective one you immediately have
:57:57. > :58:03.this danger that you outlive your saving. Collective schemes don't
:58:04. > :58:09.work well if you say we are going to make sure they work for the older
:58:10. > :58:16.generation only. We've run out of time, but how old will Merlin be
:58:17. > :58:22.when he retires? He'll finish if I feel that he isn't happy. As long as
:58:23. > :58:27.he's happy working... He looks very happy now, don't you Merlin? He's
:58:28. > :58:29.having a great time. Did you enjoy the debates?
:58:30. > :58:31.As always, the debates will continue online and on Twitter.
:58:32. > :58:36.Next week we're in Glasgow, so join us then.
:58:37. > :58:39.But for now it's goodbye, and make sure your Mum has a great
:58:40. > :58:49.Thank you so much for watching The Big Questions.
:58:50. > :59:01.APPLAUSE. You and I, we're going to change
:59:02. > :59:06.this country. You run and, hopefully,
:59:07. > :59:10.win elected office.