0:00:02 > 0:00:04Today, The Sky At Night comes from the heart of one of the most
0:00:04 > 0:00:06influential organisations in the history of astronomy,
0:00:06 > 0:00:09but also one of the most surprising.
0:00:09 > 0:00:10Welcome to the Vatican.
0:00:39 > 0:00:40BELL TOLLS
0:00:47 > 0:00:50This is St Peter's in the heart of the Vatican,
0:00:50 > 0:00:53the headquarters of the Catholic Church for centuries.
0:00:53 > 0:00:55When the Pope speaks from the balcony behind me,
0:00:55 > 0:00:57there can be up to half a million people
0:00:57 > 0:00:59gathered in the square to hear him.
0:00:59 > 0:01:02But the Vatican is so much more than a man and a square.
0:01:03 > 0:01:07It's a city-state with a population of about 1,000,
0:01:07 > 0:01:10and it's the centre of a global organisation
0:01:10 > 0:01:12with over a billion followers.
0:01:12 > 0:01:16But the headquarters of the Catholic Church also hides a secret.
0:01:16 > 0:01:19This is home to the Vatican Observatory,
0:01:19 > 0:01:20and astronomers here have played
0:01:20 > 0:01:23a major role in science over the centuries.
0:01:23 > 0:01:26It's funded to the tune of over 1 million a year
0:01:26 > 0:01:28with a dozen priest scientists
0:01:28 > 0:01:31operating telescopes in Italy and the United States.
0:01:31 > 0:01:35The Vatican is truly a serious player in the field of astronomy.
0:01:37 > 0:01:40Tonight, we are in Italy to explore
0:01:40 > 0:01:43the rich and varied world of Vatican astronomy.
0:01:46 > 0:01:49It's a shame if you're a religious person
0:01:49 > 0:01:51but you've closed your eyes to science.
0:01:51 > 0:01:54From Galileo to modern, cutting-edge science...
0:01:56 > 0:02:00..we'll investigate the priest who revolutionised stellar astronomy.
0:02:02 > 0:02:04And unearth new scientific revelations
0:02:04 > 0:02:07from an old photographic star map.
0:02:09 > 0:02:11And we'll discover how the Vatican
0:02:11 > 0:02:13is trying to explain creation itself.
0:02:14 > 0:02:18But first, Maggie finds out how one of the world's largest religious
0:02:18 > 0:02:21organisations got mixed up in astronomy in the first place.
0:02:25 > 0:02:29This is the Meridian Hall in the Tower of the Winds.
0:02:32 > 0:02:35It's perched above one of the great rooms of the Vatican.
0:02:38 > 0:02:40With its murals of ancient Romans,
0:02:40 > 0:02:43the Hall looks a bit like a stately home.
0:02:43 > 0:02:46But unknown to most, back in the 16th century,
0:02:46 > 0:02:48this room had a very different function...
0:02:50 > 0:02:54..which you can only get an inkling of in the dark.
0:02:54 > 0:03:00It's all a bit Dan Brown or Raiders Of The Lost Ark.
0:03:03 > 0:03:05This is what it's all about.
0:03:06 > 0:03:09At noon, a beam of sunlight bursts through that hole at the top of the
0:03:09 > 0:03:11wall and projects onto the floor.
0:03:13 > 0:03:15It was cloudy while we were here,
0:03:15 > 0:03:18but this amateur footage shows the spot on the floor.
0:03:19 > 0:03:22It tells us something fascinating.
0:03:22 > 0:03:25This whole room is actually a very accurate sundial.
0:03:27 > 0:03:29And it was built in 1580
0:03:29 > 0:03:32to help resolve something they didn't understand.
0:03:33 > 0:03:37Significant astronomical events, like the solstice and the equinoxes,
0:03:37 > 0:03:41were occurring earlier and earlier in the year.
0:03:41 > 0:03:44The calendar they'd used for millennia wasn't working.
0:03:45 > 0:03:50By the 16th century, the calendar was nearly two weeks out.
0:03:50 > 0:03:54The spring equinox was occurring on the 10th of March rather than around
0:03:54 > 0:03:56the 21st of March, where it had started.
0:03:56 > 0:04:00And every year, it was getting more and more out of kilter.
0:04:03 > 0:04:07It was obvious that the number of days in the calendar year
0:04:07 > 0:04:09didn't match the passage of the seasons -
0:04:09 > 0:04:11the true astronomical year.
0:04:12 > 0:04:14The calendar was out.
0:04:14 > 0:04:16The question was, how much?
0:04:18 > 0:04:23So, to illustrate the drift, the Pope built this sundial.
0:04:23 > 0:04:26Every day at noon, when the sun was at its highest,
0:04:26 > 0:04:28a spot of light was projected on the floor.
0:04:29 > 0:04:33As the year progressed, the height of the Sun changed,
0:04:33 > 0:04:35so the position of the spot moved, too.
0:04:37 > 0:04:40Recording this change meant priests could work out exactly
0:04:40 > 0:04:44where the spot would land at noon on the astronomical equinox.
0:04:45 > 0:04:46Here.
0:04:48 > 0:04:52Now they could compare the astronomical date of the equinox
0:04:52 > 0:04:53with the calendar date.
0:04:53 > 0:04:57This enabled them to work out exactly how far the calendar
0:04:57 > 0:05:01had slipped and exactly how long a year actually was
0:05:01 > 0:05:04and finally get the calendar back on track.
0:05:05 > 0:05:08After seven years of diligent study,
0:05:08 > 0:05:12Pope Gregory XIII concluded that the real length of a year was
0:05:12 > 0:05:17365.2425 days.
0:05:18 > 0:05:22And to get the calendar back on track, he took drastic action.
0:05:24 > 0:05:27He removed ten days from the calendar.
0:05:27 > 0:05:32Suddenly, the day after the 4th of October was the 15th of October!
0:05:32 > 0:05:35He had created the Gregorian calendar that we use today,
0:05:35 > 0:05:37and something else, too.
0:05:39 > 0:05:43It signalled a new papal interest in the scientific workings
0:05:43 > 0:05:46of the stars and the planets, in astronomy.
0:05:49 > 0:05:52But the Vatican's hope for a fruitful relationship with science
0:05:52 > 0:05:54was soon to flounder.
0:05:56 > 0:06:00After the success of Pope Gregory's calendar in 1582,
0:06:00 > 0:06:03things went horribly wrong.
0:06:03 > 0:06:06A certain scientist came up with an idea that was so controversial
0:06:06 > 0:06:10that it shook the Catholic Church for centuries to come.
0:06:10 > 0:06:13I'm talking, of course, of Galileo Galilei.
0:06:22 > 0:06:24Galileo got into trouble by promoting an idea
0:06:24 > 0:06:27that's utterly commonplace today -
0:06:27 > 0:06:29that the sun is the centre of the solar system.
0:06:29 > 0:06:31He did that in books like this one.
0:06:31 > 0:06:34This is his Dialogue On The Two Chief World Systems,
0:06:34 > 0:06:35not an original copy,
0:06:35 > 0:06:40but what the Vatican told us was a modern Latin translation from 1699.
0:06:44 > 0:06:49Having the sun at the centre of the universe, heliocentricism,
0:06:49 > 0:06:52actually appeared in the works of Copernicus
0:06:52 > 0:06:54a generation before Galileo.
0:06:55 > 0:06:58And for many years, it was uncontroversial,
0:06:58 > 0:07:03taught even here at the Vatican as a useful mathematical device.
0:07:04 > 0:07:09But nearly a century later, Galileo found himself in a Vatican court,
0:07:09 > 0:07:11just for defending his beliefs.
0:07:16 > 0:07:20To discover why, Maggie talked to the director of the Vatican Observatory,
0:07:20 > 0:07:25Brother Guy Consolmagno, in one of the Vatican's many libraries.
0:07:25 > 0:07:27So, what was Galileo actually tried for?
0:07:27 > 0:07:32Good question. You read the trial and the only thing they discuss is
0:07:32 > 0:07:34whether or not he obeyed the adjunction
0:07:34 > 0:07:36he had gotten 20 years earlier to
0:07:36 > 0:07:39not push the Copernican system, which he obviously was pushing.
0:07:39 > 0:07:41But he said,
0:07:41 > 0:07:43"If there's any place you want me to change
0:07:43 > 0:07:45"so I don't do that in my book, I'll be free to change it."
0:07:45 > 0:07:48And they kept saying, "No, no, we have to find you guilty of something."
0:07:48 > 0:07:51Then they tried out a verdict that has nothing to do
0:07:51 > 0:07:54with what they talked about, saying, "We found you guilty of heresy."
0:07:54 > 0:07:57And he said, "No, you didn't, you haven't found any of..."
0:07:57 > 0:08:01So they change it to, "We found you guilty of vehement suspicion of heresy,"
0:08:01 > 0:08:04which is kind of an odd thing to be guilty of.
0:08:04 > 0:08:08So we've got this old system but, after a while, with Newton's work,
0:08:08 > 0:08:11we embrace the new system, we've got evidence now.
0:08:11 > 0:08:13And so the Church embraced the idea?
0:08:13 > 0:08:16It did, actually. By the 1750s,
0:08:16 > 0:08:19only 20 years after Newton's final edition, they said
0:08:19 > 0:08:23it's OK to teach the Copernican system, not just as mathematics,
0:08:23 > 0:08:26but as a way of explaining the universe,
0:08:26 > 0:08:29with the one exception that Galileo's book
0:08:29 > 0:08:32was still on the index where you needed permission to read it.
0:08:32 > 0:08:35- It's just human nature, they didn't want to admit they were wrong.- Yes.
0:08:35 > 0:08:38But they didn't admit they were wrong for a long time.
0:08:38 > 0:08:40Well, about Galileo, they took it off the index in about 1820,
0:08:40 > 0:08:43and they are kind of embarrassed it was still on by then,
0:08:43 > 0:08:45nobody had noticed.
0:08:45 > 0:08:48The interesting thing that happened in 1992,
0:08:48 > 0:08:50Pope John Paul II said
0:08:50 > 0:08:54let's go back and have the Church admit it was wrong,
0:08:54 > 0:08:57not just in what it said about Galileo,
0:08:57 > 0:09:00but the very fact that Galileo went on trial.
0:09:00 > 0:09:02I mean, they got Galileo on a technicality.
0:09:02 > 0:09:04He really did push the Copernican system
0:09:04 > 0:09:07- the way he'd promised he wasn't going to.- Yes.
0:09:07 > 0:09:10And he was guilty of that, but that's not the point.
0:09:10 > 0:09:13The point is they shouldn't have tried him for it.
0:09:13 > 0:09:17And so Pope John Paul II apologised publicly to Galileo
0:09:17 > 0:09:20for having put him on trial.
0:09:20 > 0:09:21Naturally, people are going to read that,
0:09:21 > 0:09:24"Oh, finally the Church accepts the Copernican..."
0:09:24 > 0:09:28No, no. We'd been teaching that for a few hundred years.
0:09:31 > 0:09:33Despite the Galileo incident,
0:09:33 > 0:09:36the Vatican continued its interest in astronomy.
0:09:38 > 0:09:39And within a hundred years,
0:09:39 > 0:09:43they'd built a new observatory within the Vatican walls
0:09:43 > 0:09:46and its reputation soon began to grow.
0:09:46 > 0:09:49The next crucial part of the story of Vatican astronomy
0:09:49 > 0:09:54takes place in the 19th century here at the Church of Sant'Ignazio
0:09:54 > 0:09:56in the centre of Rome.
0:09:56 > 0:09:59It was here that a new way of looking at the universe
0:09:59 > 0:10:02was developed, and it's one that's still important to astronomy today.
0:10:04 > 0:10:06This is Father Angelo Secchi,
0:10:06 > 0:10:10a Jesuit priest and a passionate astronomer.
0:10:12 > 0:10:15He ran the Vatican Observatory for 30 years,
0:10:15 > 0:10:17helping turn it into a world-class
0:10:17 > 0:10:19scientific and astronomical institution.
0:10:23 > 0:10:27He oversaw its move in 1853 from inside the Vatican walls to a larger
0:10:27 > 0:10:30facility on the roof of this church...
0:10:32 > 0:10:35..one large enough to house the most modern of telescopes.
0:10:37 > 0:10:38With his state-of-the-art observatory,
0:10:38 > 0:10:41he started a new and unique project,
0:10:41 > 0:10:43and he began to see the stars in a way
0:10:43 > 0:10:45that no-one had ever done before.
0:10:50 > 0:10:55Secchi's innovation was to organise the stars into groups,
0:10:55 > 0:10:57and he used their light to classify them.
0:11:00 > 0:11:04And the secret to Secchi's classification was the development of something
0:11:04 > 0:11:06called spectroscopy.
0:11:07 > 0:11:12Spectroscopy was first discovered by Isaac Newton when he observed that a
0:11:12 > 0:11:16beam of light can be split into a spectrum.
0:11:16 > 0:11:19But later, scientists noticed that those spectra
0:11:19 > 0:11:21often contained dark lines.
0:11:21 > 0:11:26And those lines hold unique information about what the source of
0:11:26 > 0:11:27the light was made of.
0:11:29 > 0:11:33Secchi's genius, though, was to use this new tool on the stars.
0:11:36 > 0:11:41His results showed that each star has a distinctive pattern of lines.
0:11:44 > 0:11:47And Secchi used these patterns to sort the stars
0:11:47 > 0:11:50into four separate groups.
0:11:50 > 0:11:54His system inspired the way that we classify the stars today...
0:11:55 > 0:11:59..and we now know that the lines in the spectra that he was seeing
0:11:59 > 0:12:01identify elements in the stars.
0:12:03 > 0:12:05That's why this is still such a useful tool.
0:12:08 > 0:12:11On the roof of Secchi's old observatory,
0:12:11 > 0:12:12'I met Father David Brown,
0:12:12 > 0:12:15'who works with the Vatican's current spectroscopy group
0:12:15 > 0:12:18'at their telescope in Arizona.'
0:12:18 > 0:12:19Oh, wow!
0:12:20 > 0:12:23This is where Secchi did his spectroscopy.
0:12:23 > 0:12:25What does modern spectroscopy tell us?
0:12:25 > 0:12:27Essentially the idea's still the same.
0:12:27 > 0:12:30What has changed would be the technology.
0:12:30 > 0:12:32So what does a modern spectrum look like?
0:12:32 > 0:12:36This would be an example right over here of a modern spectrum.
0:12:36 > 0:12:38This right over here would indicate the wavelength.
0:12:38 > 0:12:41This would be the amount of light at each different wavelength.
0:12:41 > 0:12:44If you can see right over here these small dips in the curve,
0:12:44 > 0:12:49this would indicate the presence of certain elements that are absorbing
0:12:49 > 0:12:51certain types of wavelength right there.
0:12:51 > 0:12:53So that's what we sometimes see as these black lines
0:12:53 > 0:12:55- in the rainbow spectrum? - Exactly, exactly.
0:12:55 > 0:12:58Yeah, I guess this is labelled as magnesium here and iron
0:12:58 > 0:13:00- and some other things. - Iron right there, yes.
0:13:00 > 0:13:04Father Brown and his team use modern spectroscopy to research
0:13:04 > 0:13:07a strange type of star which has defied classification.
0:13:07 > 0:13:11The middle one right over here is part of what we're doing
0:13:11 > 0:13:15actually at the observatory, what is known as a Lambda Boo star.
0:13:15 > 0:13:19These are stars that have a certain dearth of what are known
0:13:19 > 0:13:21as iron peak elements, so that would be elements
0:13:21 > 0:13:23right around the mass of an iron atom,
0:13:23 > 0:13:26so cobalt, nickel, magnesium.
0:13:26 > 0:13:28Yeah, and you can see there's the magnesium line
0:13:28 > 0:13:30that's disappeared here almost entirely.
0:13:30 > 0:13:34Exactly, and so the work centres on observing these types of stars
0:13:34 > 0:13:37and of course asking the question, well, why?
0:13:37 > 0:13:41These are generally stars of the same spectral type.
0:13:41 > 0:13:43Why do their spectra differ?
0:13:43 > 0:13:45One particular hypothesis is that
0:13:45 > 0:13:49such Lambda Boo stars are able to create matter,
0:13:49 > 0:13:52- circumstellar matter... - Just leftover material?
0:13:52 > 0:13:53Exactly, exactly.
0:13:53 > 0:13:57..onto themselves and this particular type of matter would be...
0:13:57 > 0:13:59type of gas would be metal-poor.
0:13:59 > 0:14:05And so that type of gas falling onto the star would serve to dilute the
0:14:05 > 0:14:08- concentration... - Oh, so you sort of temporarily hide
0:14:08 > 0:14:10- the underlying atmosphere. - Exactly, exactly.
0:14:10 > 0:14:11- Because of that.- Fascinating.
0:14:11 > 0:14:13The fact that you can see that in the spectrum,
0:14:13 > 0:14:15I think Secchi would have been proud of that.
0:14:15 > 0:14:18Very much. He would have been fascinated by something like this,
0:14:18 > 0:14:21and certainly very happy that his work, in many ways,
0:14:21 > 0:14:24has continued at the successor to his observatory.
0:14:28 > 0:14:32Secchi's work launched a golden age of Vatican astronomical research.
0:14:34 > 0:14:37And we're travelling 30 kilometres south of the Vatican
0:14:37 > 0:14:39to the home of that research.
0:14:41 > 0:14:44Castel Gandolfo - the Pope's summer palace.
0:14:46 > 0:14:49Here, Pope Pius XI built a new observatory
0:14:49 > 0:14:51free from the glare of Rome.
0:14:53 > 0:14:57Today, it's where half a dozen priest scientists live and work,
0:14:57 > 0:14:59and it's home to four telescopes.
0:15:01 > 0:15:04One of these telescopes was at the heart of what was in its day
0:15:04 > 0:15:08one of the biggest science projects in the world,
0:15:08 > 0:15:12a project that would dominate astronomy for over 50 years...
0:15:13 > 0:15:18..the Carte du Ciel, the first photographic map of the whole sky.
0:15:21 > 0:15:22By the end of the 19th century,
0:15:22 > 0:15:25astronomers had realised that photographic plates
0:15:25 > 0:15:29could register thousands of new stars invisible to the human eye.
0:15:32 > 0:15:36And they could use them to create a new kind of map of the stars.
0:15:40 > 0:15:44The Vatican contributed 2,000 plates to the project.
0:15:44 > 0:15:47'They're curated by Father Alessandro Omizzolo.'
0:15:47 > 0:15:51Can you tell me, what was the goal of the project Carte du Ciel?
0:15:51 > 0:15:52The goal was double.
0:15:53 > 0:15:59The first one was to have a photographic map of the whole sky.
0:15:59 > 0:16:01- The entire sky?- Yes.
0:16:01 > 0:16:03This project...
0:16:04 > 0:16:08..was proposed to the observatories of the Lord
0:16:08 > 0:16:11and so the Pope decided that the Vatican astronomers
0:16:11 > 0:16:15should be involved in this scientific enterprise
0:16:15 > 0:16:19because the aim of the Vatican Observatory
0:16:19 > 0:16:23was to do astronomy as the professional astronomers do.
0:16:23 > 0:16:26These are some of the plates. Now, what's special about this plate?
0:16:26 > 0:16:29This is the first plate.
0:16:29 > 0:16:31The first plate taken here?
0:16:31 > 0:16:33Not only here. All over the world.
0:16:33 > 0:16:36Wow! The first plate for the whole project?
0:16:36 > 0:16:38The first plate of the Carte du Ciel project.
0:16:40 > 0:16:41It is...
0:16:42 > 0:16:43It was taken...
0:16:45 > 0:16:47..August 8, 1891.
0:16:50 > 0:16:55The plates revealed a wealth of new stars previously too faint to see
0:16:55 > 0:16:59and incredible details of other objects, too, like Halley's Comet.
0:17:01 > 0:17:04Father Alessandro, how many stars appeared on each plate?
0:17:06 > 0:17:09With the Carte du Ciel plates,
0:17:09 > 0:17:13we have magnitudes up to 14, so perhaps...
0:17:14 > 0:17:16- ..1,000.- OK.
0:17:16 > 0:17:19- But no more.- How many plates were generated across the project?
0:17:21 > 0:17:25Every telescope generated 2,000 plates.
0:17:25 > 0:17:26That's a lot of data.
0:17:26 > 0:17:28Yes, a lot of data.
0:17:28 > 0:17:30So, how was the data processed?
0:17:31 > 0:17:33The data...
0:17:33 > 0:17:35processed by three nuns.
0:17:35 > 0:17:36- Three nuns?- Yes.
0:17:36 > 0:17:38- Just three?- Three.
0:17:38 > 0:17:41So these three nuns worked a lot,
0:17:41 > 0:17:43many years to get the position of the stars
0:17:43 > 0:17:46and also the magnitude of the stars.
0:17:46 > 0:17:48In the last few years,
0:17:48 > 0:17:50scientists have renewed their interest in this data.
0:17:56 > 0:18:00The European Space Agency launched the telescopes Hipparcos and Gaia
0:18:00 > 0:18:01to map the galaxy.
0:18:04 > 0:18:07Comparing those results to the Carte du Ciel images
0:18:07 > 0:18:11might reveal how the sky has changed over a hundred years.
0:18:13 > 0:18:17The Vatican Observatory decide about 20 years ago
0:18:17 > 0:18:22to digitise every plate, so to preserve the information
0:18:22 > 0:18:27but also to offer the possibility to international community
0:18:27 > 0:18:31of the astronomers to access this data,
0:18:31 > 0:18:37to compare the position of the stars from the Carte du Ciel project
0:18:37 > 0:18:42with the position of the same star from Hipparcos or Gaia.
0:18:42 > 0:18:46I think it's a fantastic project but really exciting that data gathered
0:18:46 > 0:18:50100 years ago is still relevant today and can be compared with data
0:18:50 > 0:18:52we're getting today and tell us things.
0:18:52 > 0:18:53- Yes.- Tell us new things.
0:18:53 > 0:18:55- Yes.- So thank you very much, it's a brilliant project.
0:18:55 > 0:18:56Thanks to you.
0:18:58 > 0:19:02Castel Gandolfo is the largest Vatican territory,
0:19:02 > 0:19:05larger than its base in Rome and all of its embassies.
0:19:05 > 0:19:06And it's stunning.
0:19:08 > 0:19:09Because of its beauty,
0:19:09 > 0:19:12it's hard for me to imagine that within these walls,
0:19:12 > 0:19:14cutting-edge physics is actually happening.
0:19:16 > 0:19:19If there's one scientific problem that you would expect
0:19:19 > 0:19:23the Catholic Church to be working on, it's the problem of creation,
0:19:23 > 0:19:26how the universe got started in the first place.
0:19:26 > 0:19:29And in fact, the details of what we'd call the Big Bang theory
0:19:29 > 0:19:32were first worked out by a Belgian Catholic priest
0:19:32 > 0:19:33called George Lemaitre.
0:19:35 > 0:19:38Father George Lemaitre was a contemporary of Einstein's
0:19:38 > 0:19:41and was one of the first to come up with the vision
0:19:41 > 0:19:43of the universe that we understand today.
0:19:44 > 0:19:49He realised that Einstein's theories suggested that the universe could be
0:19:49 > 0:19:54expanding, an idea spectacularly confirmed in the 1920s through
0:19:54 > 0:19:56measurements of distant galaxies.
0:19:57 > 0:20:02But this idea also suggests that if you wind back time,
0:20:02 > 0:20:04you arrive at a moment when the universe
0:20:04 > 0:20:05must have been a single point.
0:20:05 > 0:20:09And that point is what we now call the Big Bang.
0:20:10 > 0:20:14Today, over 100 years after Lemaitre's work,
0:20:14 > 0:20:17physicists are trying to understand the very first moment of the
0:20:17 > 0:20:18universe's life.
0:20:20 > 0:20:23That moment is known as the Planck era.
0:20:23 > 0:20:27And it's so strange that during it the two great theories of physics,
0:20:27 > 0:20:30quantum mechanics and general relativity, break down.
0:20:34 > 0:20:38Many scientists, including some here at the Vatican Observatory,
0:20:38 > 0:20:42are now trying to come up with a new theory that combines the two -
0:20:42 > 0:20:44quantum gravity.
0:20:45 > 0:20:47Their approach is controversial
0:20:47 > 0:20:51because it tweaks the fundamentals of gravity itself.
0:20:53 > 0:20:56When we say Big Bang, we mean that hot, dense state
0:20:56 > 0:21:00- and also the moment at the beginning.- Beginning, yes.
0:21:00 > 0:21:02- Yeah.- Let's talk about the dense state first.
0:21:03 > 0:21:05So what physics is happening?
0:21:05 > 0:21:08What can we say about the laws that govern the universe
0:21:08 > 0:21:09right back at the beginning?
0:21:29 > 0:21:33So that's a billionth, billionth, billionth, billionth,
0:21:33 > 0:21:35and then a few bits more.
0:21:45 > 0:21:47So tell me about your work.
0:21:47 > 0:21:49What's your approach to try and solve these problems?
0:22:23 > 0:22:25That's the strength of gravity.
0:22:25 > 0:22:28Which we assume is the same everywhere in the universe.
0:22:36 > 0:22:37At that early time.
0:22:55 > 0:22:57So the idea is you play with things
0:22:57 > 0:22:59you would normally leave alone to try and get
0:22:59 > 0:23:02a theory that works at this early time.
0:23:02 > 0:23:03Early time, exactly.
0:23:03 > 0:23:05And then I guess you've got to do something to make
0:23:05 > 0:23:09it work later in the universe so it becomes the gravity we see.
0:23:26 > 0:23:27Thank you very much.
0:23:29 > 0:23:30It's thrilling stuff.
0:23:32 > 0:23:34But, like all the work we've seen being done here
0:23:34 > 0:23:37at the Vatican Observatory, it does beg a question.
0:23:39 > 0:23:40Why are they doing it at all?
0:23:42 > 0:23:46Chris met with the Observatory's director, Brother Guy Consolmagno,
0:23:46 > 0:23:50to talk about the relationship between astronomy and religion.
0:23:50 > 0:23:52So, Brother Guy, thank you for having us
0:23:52 > 0:23:55in this rather wonderful place.
0:23:55 > 0:23:56It's great to show it off.
0:23:56 > 0:23:59- I just love it.- Yeah. I guess my question is why are you here?
0:23:59 > 0:24:02Why does the Vatican have astronomers?
0:24:02 > 0:24:03Why does anybody have astronomers?
0:24:03 > 0:24:05You know, a friend of mine says
0:24:05 > 0:24:07it's because we couldn't afford a particle accelerator.
0:24:09 > 0:24:10Why does anybody do astronomy?
0:24:10 > 0:24:13It's not going to make you rich, it's not going to make you famous,
0:24:13 > 0:24:15it's not going to get you girls, didn't work for me.
0:24:15 > 0:24:18So why do we do astronomy?
0:24:18 > 0:24:22I had no answer for that when I was a postdoc at MIT,
0:24:22 > 0:24:25and I quit and I joined the Peace Corps and went off to Africa.
0:24:25 > 0:24:27And the Africans were fascinated with astronomy.
0:24:27 > 0:24:30The Africans wanted to know why did we go to the moon,
0:24:30 > 0:24:32what was it like when we got there?
0:24:32 > 0:24:34They wanted to look through my telescope
0:24:34 > 0:24:36and when they saw the rings of Saturn they went, "Wow!"
0:24:36 > 0:24:41And that's when I realised that we don't live by bread alone.
0:24:41 > 0:24:44Astronomy is one of those places where we can ask
0:24:44 > 0:24:47the bigger questions than just "What's for lunch?"
0:24:47 > 0:24:48I guess people...
0:24:50 > 0:24:53..are surprised that somebody of deep religious faith
0:24:53 > 0:24:56can be a scientist and I'm trying to think why that is
0:24:56 > 0:24:58and here's what I've come up with.
0:24:58 > 0:25:00- OK.- I think what it is is that...
0:25:01 > 0:25:05..in science, it's all about creating simple answers, right?
0:25:05 > 0:25:11So as a physicist, I'm not allowed to invent 600 reasons why a star is
0:25:11 > 0:25:13misbehaving or why a planet behaves in a particular way,
0:25:13 > 0:25:15- I have to find the simple answer. - Right.
0:25:15 > 0:25:21And you seem to do that and then invent or add God to that.
0:25:21 > 0:25:23- Yeah.- God is not necessary, I think.
0:25:23 > 0:25:26Oh, and that's of course a complete misunderstanding,
0:25:26 > 0:25:28really of what science is, that a lot of people have.
0:25:28 > 0:25:30I put it a different way.
0:25:30 > 0:25:33People think there's the big book of science with all the science answers
0:25:33 > 0:25:35and the big book of religion with all the religion answers and,
0:25:35 > 0:25:37"Oh, my gosh, what happens if they don't agree?"
0:25:37 > 0:25:40But science is not the book of answers,
0:25:40 > 0:25:44it's the conversation that you and I have about the answers.
0:25:44 > 0:25:46And the conversation can go on forever
0:25:46 > 0:25:48because we'll never get to the bottom
0:25:48 > 0:25:51of understanding how those bits fit together.
0:25:51 > 0:25:55The religion side is not, "These are the answers,"
0:25:55 > 0:25:58but rather, "This is how we've experienced God.
0:25:58 > 0:26:02"See if you can find that experience, that same God,
0:26:02 > 0:26:05"when you experience the data."
0:26:05 > 0:26:07I want to come back to this idea of sort of questions
0:26:07 > 0:26:10which are approached philosophically, where the questions
0:26:10 > 0:26:12don't go away and you sort of gain
0:26:12 > 0:26:14new insight by thinking about them again and again,
0:26:14 > 0:26:17versus sort of scientific questions,
0:26:17 > 0:26:19where the idea is to solve that and get a new question
0:26:19 > 0:26:22and sort of take the next ticket and keep grinding out.
0:26:22 > 0:26:26How do you decide which question falls in which category?
0:26:26 > 0:26:29Some are obvious. You know, I want to know what spectrum Sirius has,
0:26:29 > 0:26:33- that's scientific.- Yes, exactly.- But if I want to know why death exists...
0:26:33 > 0:26:35Isn't there a grey area in the middle?
0:26:35 > 0:26:39Absolutely, and that's why it's not a solved problem.
0:26:39 > 0:26:42That's why it's not something that you can have a computer do for you.
0:26:43 > 0:26:46You can't work out a calculus of ethics.
0:26:46 > 0:26:48People tried. It's always a disaster.
0:26:48 > 0:26:50And you have to remember that religion is not
0:26:50 > 0:26:52in the business of answering questions,
0:26:52 > 0:26:56religion is in the business of suggesting questions.
0:26:56 > 0:26:58So religion and science are both on this road between truth and
0:26:58 > 0:27:01understanding but, you know, it's a two-way road.
0:27:01 > 0:27:05And it's a shame if you only have the one and not the other.
0:27:05 > 0:27:08It's a shame if you're a religious person but you've closed your eyes
0:27:08 > 0:27:12to science, because you've closed your eyes to this incredibly rich
0:27:12 > 0:27:16way of experiencing the Creator.
0:27:16 > 0:27:19Well, I'm glad that we are and I'm glad we sorted some of this out.
0:27:19 > 0:27:21- Thank you very much.- I don't think we'll ever sort it out
0:27:21 > 0:27:24- but we'll have a lot of fun talking about it.- Thank you very much.
0:27:29 > 0:27:33However you might feel about the overlap between science and religion,
0:27:33 > 0:27:37the Vatican Observatory has been a fascinating place to visit.
0:27:37 > 0:27:40It's always wonderful getting access to a new observatory
0:27:40 > 0:27:42but I found this trip quite surprising.
0:27:42 > 0:27:46I was surprised at the rich history that the Vatican Observatory has.
0:27:46 > 0:27:48But you'd think there'd be some conflict
0:27:48 > 0:27:51between a religious organisation working in science,
0:27:51 > 0:27:53but I've seen no evidence of that at all.
0:27:53 > 0:27:55Just people really enjoying their work.
0:27:55 > 0:27:57And for me, it's been a nice reminder that the quest
0:27:57 > 0:28:00to understand the universe is something truly international,
0:28:00 > 0:28:04something everyone can take part in, no matter where they're from.
0:28:04 > 0:28:06That's it for tonight, but do join us next month,
0:28:06 > 0:28:09where we'll be looking to the very edges of the solar system
0:28:09 > 0:28:11to find out what lurks out there.
0:28:11 > 0:28:13And remember to check out the star guide on our website
0:28:13 > 0:28:17to find out what's happening in the night sky during June.
0:28:17 > 0:28:21And don't forget, in the meantime, get outside and get looking up.
0:28:21 > 0:28:22Goodnight.