0:00:02 > 0:00:03That was as good a ball as Willis has bowled.
0:00:03 > 0:00:06It was up, it was on a length, it was on line, it moved in a little
0:00:06 > 0:00:08and Richards simply walked into it, and on-drove it.
0:00:08 > 0:00:13Willis again. And that's chopped down, between slips and gully.
0:00:13 > 0:00:15Gully, who's Willey, turns and chases it.
0:00:15 > 0:00:17They canter an easy two.
0:00:17 > 0:00:18No trouble at all.
0:00:18 > 0:00:22- Do you have any favourites among the commentators?- Yes, yes. John Arlott. - John Arlott.
0:00:22 > 0:00:25Massie, who's bowled unchanged throughout the innings.
0:00:25 > 0:00:2820 overs now. In for two.
0:00:28 > 0:00:31And, after Trevor Bailey, it will be Christopher Martin-Jenkins.
0:00:31 > 0:00:33It's not an easy job commentating.
0:00:33 > 0:00:36I think John's been one of the best, by a long way.
0:00:37 > 0:00:39John Arlott.
0:00:39 > 0:00:41He's a man of many parts.
0:00:41 > 0:00:44He's generous to a fault.
0:00:44 > 0:00:48Both in deeds and in thought.
0:00:48 > 0:00:51He's a lover of cricket, and of cricketers.
0:00:51 > 0:00:54But well aware of the dictum,
0:00:54 > 0:00:57"What do they know of cricket, who only cricket know?"
0:00:57 > 0:01:02John, here we are in Alderney. I wonder what made you choose
0:01:02 > 0:01:05to come and live here when you decided to retire.
0:01:05 > 0:01:07I'd been coming here for a long time.
0:01:07 > 0:01:09I came first of all by accident.
0:01:11 > 0:01:18A neighbour in Highgate introduced me to the island in 1951.
0:01:18 > 0:01:21And I always wanted to come here and retire.
0:01:21 > 0:01:24Several things. First of all...
0:01:24 > 0:01:27the tempo is superb.
0:01:27 > 0:01:30Secondly, it's extremely quiet.
0:01:30 > 0:01:33And, thirdly, and I think this is most important,
0:01:33 > 0:01:37people of the island let you live your own life.
0:01:37 > 0:01:42It's completely peaceful, as far as I'm concerned.
0:01:42 > 0:01:45Nobody worries me. Nobody bores me.
0:01:45 > 0:01:47And I can live alone
0:01:47 > 0:01:52and not see anyone except my wife or my family for a week and then
0:01:52 > 0:01:55do a party, have some people into dinner, something like that.
0:01:55 > 0:02:01I find it the absolutely perfect existence and also, of course,
0:02:01 > 0:02:06it's very good for my bronchitic chest, because the air is so clear.
0:02:06 > 0:02:08What was the first money you ever earned?
0:02:08 > 0:02:10Did you do a paper round or anything like that?
0:02:10 > 0:02:13No, I was very upmarket. I, er...
0:02:16 > 0:02:21I used to do scribbling for Mr Goodall the builder in the school holidays.
0:02:21 > 0:02:24And I was supposed to have shorthand,
0:02:24 > 0:02:31which was a bit of a glorification of my rather thin capabilities.
0:02:31 > 0:02:33But he used to dictate this to me.
0:02:33 > 0:02:35Costings, tenders.
0:02:35 > 0:02:37I also remember it used to end,
0:02:37 > 0:02:40and I understood this for gospel for many years...
0:02:42 > 0:02:46.."To clearing site and removal of dibrizz."
0:02:46 > 0:02:49- Dubrizz?- Dibrizz.
0:02:49 > 0:02:51I later learnt that meant debris.
0:02:51 > 0:02:53Oh, I see.
0:02:53 > 0:02:55Removal of dibrizz.
0:02:56 > 0:03:01But, all right, that was my first six bob a week, I thought.
0:03:01 > 0:03:04One of your first jobs, not your first job but, I think,
0:03:04 > 0:03:08your second job probably, was being a policeman.
0:03:08 > 0:03:10And then becoming a detective.
0:03:10 > 0:03:13Why did you...? What was so interesting in that to you?
0:03:15 > 0:03:18Well, first of all, my father wanted me to have a secure job.
0:03:18 > 0:03:22We were poor. I grew up in the slump.
0:03:22 > 0:03:24And the desperate thing my father wanted was that
0:03:24 > 0:03:27I should never be out of work.
0:03:27 > 0:03:31So, first of all, I went into the local government office,
0:03:31 > 0:03:36then into the mental health service as a doctor's clerk.
0:03:36 > 0:03:38All pensionable jobs, you see.
0:03:38 > 0:03:42And then, into the police force, which was also pensionable.
0:03:42 > 0:03:45And Southampton Police had about the best
0:03:45 > 0:03:47club cricket side in England so I thought
0:03:47 > 0:03:50if I could combine security with cricket, I'd be doing fairly well.
0:03:50 > 0:03:52Mm.
0:03:55 > 0:03:59I wouldn't say, though, that I was ever a particularly good policeman
0:03:59 > 0:04:03or a particularly good cricketer, but, er...
0:04:04 > 0:04:07It seemed to me a way of growing up.
0:04:07 > 0:04:12It seemed to me that offices were petty and small-minded.
0:04:12 > 0:04:17And that the police force would be bigger, and more virile, more manly.
0:04:17 > 0:04:19I was wrong.
0:04:21 > 0:04:24It could be very small-minded in those days.
0:04:24 > 0:04:26I don't know if it is now.
0:04:26 > 0:04:28Greater freedom.
0:04:28 > 0:04:33There's not the appalling, back-breaking discipline
0:04:33 > 0:04:37of the chaser sergeants and the chaser points, you know.
0:04:37 > 0:04:40Driving you round the beat at 3-3½ miles an hour,
0:04:40 > 0:04:42as some of those old sadists used to do.
0:04:44 > 0:04:47But I suppose it was a way of life that brought you into contact
0:04:47 > 0:04:51with people, in a way that, perhaps, it wouldn't do so much today.
0:04:51 > 0:04:52Yes, it did.
0:04:52 > 0:04:56And that was the most valuable part of it all.
0:04:56 > 0:05:00And the other thing is, of course, that it's a hardening process.
0:05:00 > 0:05:04I don't say it makes you into a bully, it removes physical fear,
0:05:04 > 0:05:06which is very useful indeed.
0:05:06 > 0:05:10And if somebody says, "I'll clock you," you're not frightened.
0:05:10 > 0:05:12I mean, it may be that he is going to clock you.
0:05:12 > 0:05:14It may be he's going to knock you down.
0:05:14 > 0:05:16It may be he's going to produce a great, big black eye.
0:05:16 > 0:05:20But you've had a black eye before, at boxing, and things like this.
0:05:20 > 0:05:24You're not physically frightened, which I think is a good thing.
0:05:24 > 0:05:28And you reckoned the police helped you, being a policeman helped you?
0:05:28 > 0:05:29Oh, I know it did.
0:05:29 > 0:05:33I know it did because, at school, it was possible, at times,
0:05:33 > 0:05:35for me to be bullied.
0:05:35 > 0:05:39I hit back, on instructions from my father.
0:05:39 > 0:05:43And I was threatened to be taken to the headmaster for bullying, myself!
0:05:43 > 0:05:47Yes, it makes you altogether more self-reliant and less fearful.
0:05:47 > 0:05:50- And more generally secure in outlook, I think.- Mm.
0:05:50 > 0:05:53And before that, the mental health job.
0:05:53 > 0:05:56I mean, did you actually have contact with...
0:05:56 > 0:06:00Was that an interest or was it merely a branch of the civil service?
0:06:00 > 0:06:03I was doctor's clerk in a mental hospital
0:06:03 > 0:06:08and I was working with patients most of the time, with doctors,
0:06:08 > 0:06:11and I was frequently on the wards.
0:06:12 > 0:06:17In your teens, you see, that's a very morbid experience.
0:06:18 > 0:06:23Again, it teaches you a terrible amount about life and about people.
0:06:23 > 0:06:29And the fact that the people they call insane are, in fact,
0:06:29 > 0:06:32ordinary people with just one little kink, one little twist,
0:06:32 > 0:06:33one little oddity.
0:06:37 > 0:06:40I wouldn't have missed that. I wouldn't have missed either.
0:06:40 > 0:06:43But I wouldn't want to have spent as long as I did in either, really.
0:06:43 > 0:06:46Because you were in there four years.
0:06:46 > 0:06:50Four years and 11 years in the police force.
0:06:50 > 0:06:54Things change now at a vast rate.
0:06:55 > 0:07:01I remember talking to my mother not long before she died.
0:07:01 > 0:07:06She was saying when she was married there was no radio, no television.
0:07:06 > 0:07:11No internal combustion engine, no motorcars. No aircraft.
0:07:11 > 0:07:15And she lived to look at television and see a man land on the moon.
0:07:17 > 0:07:19All right, it's trite, I know.
0:07:19 > 0:07:23But it does show just what has happened to us.
0:07:25 > 0:07:31- And how difficult, understandably difficult, it is for many people to adjust.- Mm.
0:07:31 > 0:07:35I don't know about you. You may master computers.
0:07:35 > 0:07:39But I stand in utter awe of computers.
0:07:39 > 0:07:41And yet I go round to my friends' houses
0:07:41 > 0:07:47and find their 10-year-olds putting computers together with DIY kits!
0:07:47 > 0:07:49And, you know, one never knows
0:07:49 > 0:07:54whether to stay an old square or try to live up to it or...
0:07:54 > 0:07:58You've mentioned your father a couple of times.
0:07:58 > 0:08:02What did he do? What was he like?
0:08:02 > 0:08:07He was the cemetery registrar at Basingstoke.
0:08:07 > 0:08:11He was a terribly good mechanic and he was tutored in diesel engines
0:08:11 > 0:08:15by Dr Diesel himself, of which he was very proud.
0:08:15 > 0:08:17It was a shame that...
0:08:17 > 0:08:21He did that, you see, to get a house for himself and my mother,
0:08:21 > 0:08:25and a secure income before he went to the First World War.
0:08:25 > 0:08:27And, er...
0:08:29 > 0:08:33He was very small. Very neat. Very capable. Superb with his hands.
0:08:33 > 0:08:36He could do anything in the house.
0:08:36 > 0:08:39Furnish the house in oak.
0:08:39 > 0:08:41He used to mend our shoes.
0:08:41 > 0:08:44Change the fuses. Do the plumbing.
0:08:44 > 0:08:47And the carpentry. Do all the repairs about the house.
0:08:47 > 0:08:51And, in addition, feed us from the allotment.
0:08:51 > 0:08:53Of course, he worked himself to death.
0:08:53 > 0:08:57He just worked so hard to keep the family going on a small income
0:08:57 > 0:09:01that, when he retired, there wasn't very much left.
0:09:02 > 0:09:06He was a very sweet, gentle, loving, indulgent man.
0:09:08 > 0:09:12He and my mother were just so wonderful.
0:09:12 > 0:09:15The poverty never mattered. It never occurred to me.
0:09:15 > 0:09:19I only stand back and look now and realise how poor we were.
0:09:19 > 0:09:23And I'm amazed that we were so incredibly happy as a family,
0:09:23 > 0:09:27- how well we understood one another. - Mm. There were just the three of you?
0:09:27 > 0:09:30Yes. Yes.
0:09:30 > 0:09:34The doctor, I believe, recommended my mother to have another child.
0:09:34 > 0:09:37And she said, "Yes, I would, Dr Bethel, if I could afford it."
0:09:39 > 0:09:42And it really was like that.
0:09:42 > 0:09:45She was a very capable woman.
0:09:45 > 0:09:48She was the local Liberal agent and did succeed,
0:09:48 > 0:09:50the only one who ever did,
0:09:50 > 0:09:54the only agent who ever got a Liberal in for Basingstoke.
0:09:54 > 0:09:56It sounds as though your relationship with them
0:09:56 > 0:09:58continued to be really close.
0:09:58 > 0:10:02I mean, you asked your mother her opinion about the politics and
0:10:02 > 0:10:07your father's reaction was, you know, there was a lot of communication...
0:10:07 > 0:10:09We were always terribly close, yes.
0:10:09 > 0:10:12I loved them dearly. I was desperately grateful to them.
0:10:12 > 0:10:13Still am.
0:10:17 > 0:10:21It's about the most important thing people do for other people, isn't it?
0:10:21 > 0:10:22Yes.
0:10:30 > 0:10:33And these other... Well, let me ask you,
0:10:33 > 0:10:37are there decisions that you've actually regretted?
0:10:37 > 0:10:40Things that you wished you had done?
0:10:40 > 0:10:43As they say, that's a good question.
0:10:51 > 0:10:53There ought to be.
0:10:53 > 0:10:56I'm trying, as I've never thought of this before,
0:10:56 > 0:10:59but what I suppose is that,
0:10:59 > 0:11:01once I make a decision, I accept it,
0:11:01 > 0:11:05and I don't gripe if the dice fall the other way.
0:11:08 > 0:11:12I've been lucky, you see. Desperately lucky in many ways.
0:11:12 > 0:11:14Unlucky in a few.
0:11:16 > 0:11:17A few unimportant ones.
0:11:21 > 0:11:25To think that the cemetery keeper's boy
0:11:25 > 0:11:30was going to be a commentator, a poet, an author.
0:11:34 > 0:11:38Even be conversed with by you.
0:11:38 > 0:11:41It's a pretty heady thought, you know, that...
0:11:45 > 0:11:47It's one that you appreciate more than
0:11:47 > 0:11:50if you've been born into some kind of privilege.
0:11:53 > 0:11:56Sometimes you tell yourself you've done it yourself but you know,
0:11:56 > 0:11:59really, that there's a vast element of luck in it,
0:11:59 > 0:12:01of being in the right place at the right time
0:12:01 > 0:12:05and doing the right thing that was warranted at the right time.
0:12:05 > 0:12:08I'm sure there are 50 better commentators then me
0:12:08 > 0:12:11about the place who are not doing commentary.
0:12:11 > 0:12:15And, uh, I was there when it happened.
0:12:17 > 0:12:20But I had a feeling also that
0:12:20 > 0:12:22you were quite ambitious to do well in something.
0:12:22 > 0:12:26I mean, you said about various things that, at that point, you saw
0:12:26 > 0:12:30you couldn't do any more and weren't going to be good enough at it.
0:12:30 > 0:12:34I think, wouldn't you say, you wanted to do something really well.
0:12:34 > 0:12:37- Yes, I did. - Or some things really well.
0:12:37 > 0:12:40But I wasn't looking for something to do well.
0:12:40 > 0:12:42I became interested in things and tried to do well at them,
0:12:42 > 0:12:44which I think is a different matter.
0:12:44 > 0:12:47I didn't want success at any price. I wanted...
0:12:47 > 0:12:49I wanted to do what I've done,
0:12:49 > 0:12:53which was earn my living doing the things I've loved.
0:12:53 > 0:12:57You see so few people who are really happy in their work.
0:12:57 > 0:13:02Decent, nice, fundamentally mentally contented chaps will tell you
0:13:02 > 0:13:05they're happy in their job but they're not really.
0:13:05 > 0:13:07The job doesn't satisfy. It doesn't please them.
0:13:07 > 0:13:09It doesn't make them terribly proud.
0:13:11 > 0:13:12It's rarely a thing...
0:13:12 > 0:13:15It's rarely doing something that,
0:13:15 > 0:13:18if they weren't doing it professionally, they'd do as a hobby.
0:13:18 > 0:13:20That's right. There are not many of those.
0:13:20 > 0:13:22And, for us, we've both been fortunate in that way.
0:13:22 > 0:13:25Yes, I think it might have taken a lot of persuasion to ask you
0:13:25 > 0:13:27to refuse the England captaincy(!)
0:13:27 > 0:13:30It would have taken a lot to stop me becoming a commentator once
0:13:30 > 0:13:33I had the chance of it.
0:13:33 > 0:13:35Or a Guardian cricket correspondent.
0:13:37 > 0:13:39Or almost all the other things I've ever been.
0:13:42 > 0:13:45Desperately lucky. Right time, right place.
0:13:47 > 0:13:51Not only were you a cemetery keeper's son,
0:13:51 > 0:13:53but you were, as you've already said...
0:13:53 > 0:13:55You failed your school certificate.
0:13:55 > 0:13:58- I mean, you didn't have a very... - Spectacularly.- Spectacular, was it?
0:13:58 > 0:14:01Well, I mean, the one subject I would have passed
0:14:01 > 0:14:04and might have got a credit in, which was geography,
0:14:04 > 0:14:07I left halfway through the paper, knowing I'd done enough to pass.
0:14:07 > 0:14:10I went to see Reading play in a cup tie
0:14:10 > 0:14:13and, for that reason, they turned me down and failed me
0:14:13 > 0:14:16in geography, which I always thought was a dirty trick.
0:14:16 > 0:14:19But I took it after I'd left school, you see.
0:14:19 > 0:14:20I left school in rebellion.
0:14:24 > 0:14:26Yes. Why was that?
0:14:26 > 0:14:29What happened at school? What was your school?
0:14:29 > 0:14:31It was Queen Mary School, Basingstoke,
0:14:31 > 0:14:34which was a little grammar school of 125 boys.
0:14:35 > 0:14:39Tough and hard, with a Prussian headmaster
0:14:39 > 0:14:42who enjoyed wielding the cane.
0:14:44 > 0:14:47We looked each other in the eye very early on.
0:14:47 > 0:14:50I think he thought he would beat me into submission.
0:14:50 > 0:14:53I had more whacks than anybody else in our form.
0:14:53 > 0:14:58You used to touch your toes, whip your coat-tails up your back
0:14:58 > 0:15:02and, out of the hem of his gown, he pulled this cane,
0:15:02 > 0:15:06which was as thick as my thumb, and four feet long.
0:15:06 > 0:15:08He always used to cane at the washbasins,
0:15:08 > 0:15:11because there it echoed all round the school.
0:15:12 > 0:15:16And the bruises lasted for about a fortnight.
0:15:16 > 0:15:20Red the first night, gradually going black, and, er...
0:15:22 > 0:15:26..you'd take a three or four and stand up and look him in the eyes.
0:15:26 > 0:15:28I never had a six.
0:15:28 > 0:15:31I never did anything quite bad enough to deserve that.
0:15:31 > 0:15:34I never saw anybody who kept consciousness after
0:15:34 > 0:15:36he had one of Percival's sixes.
0:15:36 > 0:15:40They would fall on their faces or stagger out and
0:15:40 > 0:15:43the people in their form would catch them.
0:15:43 > 0:15:46Take them out and run their head under the tap in the basins.
0:15:46 > 0:15:48But he enjoyed it, poor fellow,
0:15:48 > 0:15:52and he had asthma so you can only feel sorry for him.
0:15:52 > 0:15:55But it set you against the whole school process?
0:15:55 > 0:16:00Well, I had friends there and some staff that I respected immensely.
0:16:00 > 0:16:04But it set me against him, you know, so that I had to draw level,
0:16:04 > 0:16:06even though I couldn't afford it,
0:16:06 > 0:16:09to the extent of smoking the same expensive cigarettes.
0:16:11 > 0:16:15I did put it straight years afterwards.
0:16:15 > 0:16:18When, bewilderingly, he turned up at our old boys' dinner
0:16:18 > 0:16:21and they asked me to propose his health.
0:16:21 > 0:16:23I said, "Me? You know what I thought of him."
0:16:23 > 0:16:26And the chairman said, "Yes, say it." And I said it.
0:16:26 > 0:16:30And I still don't know whether it was cruel or deserved.
0:16:30 > 0:16:32Or valedictory or whether he hadn't asked for it,
0:16:32 > 0:16:34and deserved to know before he died.
0:16:37 > 0:16:39If he's listening now, I meant it.
0:16:44 > 0:16:49John, you've written at least one hymn, maybe you've written more.
0:16:49 > 0:16:51And that wasn't all that long ago, was it?
0:16:51 > 0:16:54- Oh, it's a long time ago.- Was it?
0:16:54 > 0:16:55Oh, yes.
0:16:56 > 0:16:58Late '40s, I should think.
0:16:58 > 0:17:02I wrote three or four hymns for the BBC hymnbook,
0:17:02 > 0:17:05one of which is pretty constantly reprinted.
0:17:05 > 0:17:08More reprinted than anything else I've ever written, I think.
0:17:08 > 0:17:11- Is it about ploughing? - Yes, harvest festival.
0:17:18 > 0:17:21Yes, anything to turn an honest penny.
0:17:23 > 0:17:27Presumably there was some belief behind it.
0:17:30 > 0:17:31Yes, I was brought up to God.
0:17:31 > 0:17:33In church I was brought up, I suppose,
0:17:33 > 0:17:35as what you'd call a practising Christian.
0:17:38 > 0:17:43The loss of my eldest son hit... hit that pretty hard.
0:17:49 > 0:17:50It's all very well for people to tell me
0:17:50 > 0:17:53about it being all for the best and things like this.
0:18:00 > 0:18:03That matters, I suppose, to me, more than anything else at the time.
0:18:06 > 0:18:09It hasn't changed much over the years, except other things have joined it.
0:18:15 > 0:18:21I rate my family higher than anything else in the world.
0:18:23 > 0:18:25Too many of them gone.
0:18:29 > 0:18:33You see, you either belong to the club of "It happens to me"
0:18:33 > 0:18:36or the club of "It doesn't happen to me" and...
0:18:36 > 0:18:38never the twain you shall meet.
0:18:40 > 0:18:43That's a corny thing to say, but it's true.
0:18:44 > 0:18:46They really don't understand each other
0:18:46 > 0:18:49and neither can explain to the other, really.
0:18:55 > 0:18:59You can't win 'em all, you know.
0:18:59 > 0:19:03Luck over some things, and not over others.
0:19:03 > 0:19:06That's pretty corny and trite, too.
0:19:10 > 0:19:15And I needn't have said it and I probably shouldn't have said it.
0:19:15 > 0:19:18- Talk about something else. - Yeah. What shall we talk about?
0:19:29 > 0:19:31I must say,
0:19:31 > 0:19:36filming with beaujolais is much better than just filming,
0:19:36 > 0:19:38- don't you think?- It is, yeah.
0:19:41 > 0:19:48Not the connoisseur's drink, but the ordinary chap's drink.
0:19:48 > 0:19:53In the old bistro glasses, the 19th-century bistro glasses.
0:19:53 > 0:19:58- They're lovely glasses. - They're not delicate, sensitive, or anything like that.
0:19:59 > 0:20:01The glasses they use...
0:20:03 > 0:20:07Where did you get them? You've got a lot of them, haven't you?
0:20:07 > 0:20:10Yes. Bought them in Burgundy from Christopher Fielden.
0:20:12 > 0:20:18Oh, and from a lady called Lesley Taylor in Cirencester,
0:20:18 > 0:20:22who used to buy 'em a lot in France and bring 'em back and sell 'em.
0:20:22 > 0:20:25You simply don't find them any more.
0:20:25 > 0:20:27It's a wonder they're not all gone.
0:20:27 > 0:20:31Thank goodness they bounce if you have reasonable carpets.
0:20:33 > 0:20:37And sometimes off the parquet, too. They're pretty solid.
0:20:40 > 0:20:44That's probably done no good at all to the microphone.
0:20:44 > 0:20:49- The table's all right, though.- They are solid. The table's used to it.
0:21:00 > 0:21:01Yes, we touched on it before,
0:21:01 > 0:21:05whether you'd ever worked too hard for the family.
0:21:05 > 0:21:08And one of the aspects of that was being a professional,
0:21:08 > 0:21:11wasn't it, and doing jobs properly and not turning things down.
0:21:11 > 0:21:14Yes. I think I'm not so reluctant now.
0:21:14 > 0:21:18You see, for a long time as a freelancer, you think,
0:21:18 > 0:21:21"If I refuse this job, I may never get another."
0:21:21 > 0:21:24And especially when I left the BBC
0:21:24 > 0:21:29and left the shelter of a permanent, pensionable job
0:21:29 > 0:21:36and set out into the wilderness that my father so dreaded,
0:21:36 > 0:21:39there was then a time when I accepted anything,
0:21:39 > 0:21:43right, left and centre. If it was work, I took it.
0:21:43 > 0:21:47And for years, of course, you never took a holiday.
0:21:47 > 0:21:49But, er...
0:21:49 > 0:21:52But Maurice Eddleston cured that.
0:21:52 > 0:21:56Turned up one day and he said, "When are you two going on holiday, then?"
0:21:56 > 0:21:58So Valerie looked the other way and I said,
0:21:58 > 0:22:01"Well, I don't think we are, Maurice." He said, "Why not?"
0:22:01 > 0:22:02"Take the girl for a holiday."
0:22:02 > 0:22:06I said, "But, Maurice, you know, there's so much work to do and if you're a freelancer..."
0:22:06 > 0:22:11He said, "I'm a freelancer. We're going on holiday."
0:22:11 > 0:22:14"Why don't you make him take you somewhere?" he said to Valerie.
0:22:14 > 0:22:17She said, "Well, you did say you'd take me to Venice."
0:22:17 > 0:22:19So I said, "OK, we'll go to Venice.
0:22:19 > 0:22:22"And what's more, we'll go on the Orient express."
0:22:25 > 0:22:31So I rapidly accepted a job to write an account of a Test tour.
0:22:33 > 0:22:36Dashed this down. Every night I filled it in,
0:22:36 > 0:22:40kept the job up-to-date, so that as soon as the cricket season ended,
0:22:40 > 0:22:44we could dive off and we got on this train at Waterloo, er, Victoria.
0:22:46 > 0:22:47Oh, dear. Oh, dear. Oh, dear.
0:22:47 > 0:22:51This was the romantic dream of all time.
0:22:51 > 0:22:54This was the Orient Express.
0:22:54 > 0:22:57They took the diner off at Paris on the way out.
0:22:57 > 0:23:01We went on the way out in a cabin where there wasn't room
0:23:01 > 0:23:04for two people to stand up at the same time,
0:23:04 > 0:23:07nor even one to stand bolt upright.
0:23:07 > 0:23:13On the way out, we were next door to the toilet,
0:23:13 > 0:23:16which reeked to high heaven of ammonia.
0:23:16 > 0:23:21On the way back, we were at the opposite end with half a mile walk to the toilet.
0:23:21 > 0:23:23And I'm not sure which was worse.
0:23:23 > 0:23:27And on the way back, they took the diner off at Milan.
0:23:27 > 0:23:32But the exciting thing was that to eat,
0:23:32 > 0:23:35you bought off these trolleys on the railway platforms.
0:23:35 > 0:23:40And, in Switzerland, you could get off and you had 40 minutes for a meal at the border.
0:23:40 > 0:23:45In a railway buffet. And a railway buffet in this country means
0:23:45 > 0:23:49everything a railway buffet means in this country, but there it doesn't.
0:23:49 > 0:23:53And so often, you know, you go to a French town
0:23:53 > 0:23:56and the best restaurant in the town is the railway buffet.
0:23:56 > 0:24:00And this was like that, or it tasted like it, in Switzerland.
0:24:00 > 0:24:04And we had the most magnificent time in Venice.
0:24:04 > 0:24:09And, you know, this is where I vacillate. I'm so feeble.
0:24:09 > 0:24:12I don't know which is the finest city in the world.
0:24:12 > 0:24:16Whether it's London, Paris, Vienna, Venice, Rome.
0:24:18 > 0:24:23Bordeaux's got to get pretty closely into the running.
0:24:23 > 0:24:27And Beaune, the walled, boozy city of Burgundy.
0:24:27 > 0:24:31Or Beaujeu, the little forgotten town of Beaujolais. I don't know.
0:24:33 > 0:24:36Barcelona, the Ramblas.
0:24:38 > 0:24:41I don't think... Well, I don't know.
0:24:41 > 0:24:43San Francisco.
0:24:43 > 0:24:46But, on the whole, not many good cities outside Europe.
0:24:46 > 0:24:49Not for the European, I don't think.
0:24:49 > 0:24:52- Sydney takes a beating.- Pardon? - Sydney takes a bit of beating.
0:24:52 > 0:24:54Trouble is, it's full of Australians.
0:24:54 > 0:24:57Well, there are exceptions.
0:24:57 > 0:24:59Yes. There are exceptions, actually.
0:24:59 > 0:25:02There's some very nice Australians.
0:25:02 > 0:25:06And Sydney is, in many ways...
0:25:09 > 0:25:13..I suppose, the most attractive of really modern cities.
0:25:13 > 0:25:17If you can put up with the taxi drivers.
0:25:17 > 0:25:19You had your own...
0:25:19 > 0:25:22What was your first experience with Sydney taxi drivers?
0:25:22 > 0:25:25The first time I ever hailed a cab and he pulled up.
0:25:25 > 0:25:29Being used to London, I put my hand on the handle of the back door
0:25:29 > 0:25:34and the driver looked up at me and said, "Do I bleeding stink, then?"
0:25:35 > 0:25:38You get in front with the driver in Sydney.
0:25:38 > 0:25:42Which I'm always happy to do anywhere, anyway, but I...
0:25:42 > 0:25:44I was over-accustomed to London.
0:25:44 > 0:25:46The trouble is, if you get in the front seat,
0:25:46 > 0:25:49and especially in a Test series,
0:25:49 > 0:25:52"You bleeding Poms haven't got a chance, have you, eh?"
0:25:52 > 0:25:54"We'll mop ya, mate."
0:25:57 > 0:26:01Yes, there can be no greater pleasure than a tour of Australia
0:26:01 > 0:26:07with a winning English side, especially if they've lost the first Test match. Oh!
0:26:07 > 0:26:12Glorious. Because they are not the world's greatest losers.
0:26:12 > 0:26:14They do melt away a bit.
0:26:14 > 0:26:17Mind you, they melt away all over the place, don't they?
0:26:17 > 0:26:19I've seen them melt away in Kent
0:26:19 > 0:26:22when things are not going well, and in a much different style.
0:26:22 > 0:26:25They've a rather nicely spoken, smiling style when things go well,
0:26:25 > 0:26:28but they melt away quietly.
0:26:28 > 0:26:30Ah, not like the Australians, Mike.
0:26:30 > 0:26:32You must admit, not like the Australians.
0:26:32 > 0:26:35Nobody gets so bitter as the Australians.
0:26:35 > 0:26:38Nobody has ever been on the receiving end of that
0:26:38 > 0:26:43- more desperately than you except, perhaps, Harold Larwood and Douglas Jardine.- Yes.
0:26:43 > 0:26:48To go there and win is great but you come back with scars on the soul.
0:26:48 > 0:26:52Yeah, well... Mind you, the biggest opposition and hostility was when
0:26:52 > 0:26:56we in fact lost the time after, because we'd one the year before.
0:26:56 > 0:26:59And then the Packer players came back.
0:26:59 > 0:27:02And we didn't agree to all the detail that they wanted and I seemed to be,
0:27:02 > 0:27:07to them, the person who made all the decisions as to what rules we played under and everything.
0:27:07 > 0:27:10And it was quite an interesting, interesting tour.
0:27:10 > 0:27:16You never did a braver or better, or calmer thing in your life than that.
0:27:16 > 0:27:20I must say, I boiled with indignation for you
0:27:20 > 0:27:24and was overwhelmed with admiration that you could put up with it.
0:27:24 > 0:27:27- I couldn't have put up with it. - Yeah.
0:27:27 > 0:27:32- I lost my temper once.- Perhaps you couldn't buy a machine gun.
0:27:32 > 0:27:35I met Bob Hawke there who, towards the end of the tour...
0:27:35 > 0:27:40- The new Prime Minister.- The new Prime Minister, who told me... He said that he had a lot of...
0:27:40 > 0:27:43He was very interested to meet me, and he was a very nice, pleasant man.
0:27:43 > 0:27:48And he told me that he thought I didn't quite handle the Ockers as well as I might have.
0:27:48 > 0:27:52And that they weren't all as bad as I probably thought.
0:27:52 > 0:27:56In fact, quite a lot of them voted for him, he said. HE LAUGHS
0:27:56 > 0:28:03Yes, the Ocker is an unfortunate symbol that too many of them have adopted, you know.
0:28:03 > 0:28:10People like Dennis Lillee and Marsh, Rod Marsh,
0:28:10 > 0:28:16- who almost welcomed the concept of the Ocker image and it's...- Yeah.- It's not nice.
0:28:16 > 0:28:19I'd take Marsh out of that category a bit. Put Ian Chappell in.
0:28:19 > 0:28:21But I'd take Marsh out a bit.
0:28:21 > 0:28:23I mean, about Rod Marsh, he never appealed...
0:28:23 > 0:28:27Occasionally he got angry if he thought they'd been done.
0:28:27 > 0:28:31But, generally speaking, he never appealed unless he thought it was out.
0:28:31 > 0:28:35I used to get great fun out of him, because somebody would say,
0:28:35 > 0:28:40"Ah, you're being tough again, Rod." And I'd say, "But he's not tough.
0:28:40 > 0:28:44"He's a dear, nice, sweet, cuddly teddy bear."
0:28:44 > 0:28:48"Get off, mate!" This was the one thing he couldn't stand.
0:28:48 > 0:28:52He'd take almost anything else. But not being described as a nice, cuddly teddy bear of a man.
0:28:52 > 0:28:55I suppose not many people would, really!
0:28:58 > 0:29:00No, let's let Rod off,
0:29:00 > 0:29:05if only on account of that wonderful calling back when he said not out.
0:29:05 > 0:29:07Randall? Yeah. I believe Greg Chappell
0:29:07 > 0:29:11was so fed up, he went off to fine leg for a couple of overs.
0:29:11 > 0:29:14Took no part in the running of the match but, yes,
0:29:14 > 0:29:16I think Rod Marsh is...
0:29:16 > 0:29:18I mean, off the field, he bristles, doesn't he?
0:29:18 > 0:29:20He doesn't shave and he bristles on the field.
0:29:20 > 0:29:24And there's a nice story of him with Derek Randall and Randall coming in to bat one day,
0:29:24 > 0:29:27I think in England, in a Test match, and saying...
0:29:27 > 0:29:29You know, they never could understand Randall.
0:29:29 > 0:29:31Well, a lot of people can't understand him!
0:29:31 > 0:29:34But the Australians could understand him less than the rest of us.
0:29:34 > 0:29:38And Derek came in and said, " 'Ey oop, Marshy, how you goin', then?"
0:29:38 > 0:29:42And Rod Marsh didn't say a thing. "Are we not chatting, then, today?" says Randall.
0:29:42 > 0:29:48And Marsh eventually says, "What do you think this is, a...garden party?"
0:29:48 > 0:29:53But he was all right. And off the field, quiet and a very warm man.
0:29:56 > 0:29:57Yes.
0:29:59 > 0:30:02I've known some splendid Australians.
0:30:02 > 0:30:07- Especially the nice, tame ones who settled in England, like Jack... - HE LAUGHS
0:30:07 > 0:30:09..like Col McCool.
0:30:11 > 0:30:13Bill Alley's still here.
0:30:13 > 0:30:17Always had that elegant, dignified Sydney side.
0:30:19 > 0:30:21What a good player, my goodness.
0:30:21 > 0:30:24What a loss he was, for years, to top-class cricket.
0:30:26 > 0:30:30Yes. They do make me laugh sometimes, but not always.
0:30:30 > 0:30:34Sometimes they make me very cross, indeed.
0:30:36 > 0:30:39They don't lose well. That's...
0:30:39 > 0:30:43Well, again, in my experience, Rod Marsh would be the first
0:30:43 > 0:30:48at the end of a Test match we'd won to come and shake everyone's hand
0:30:48 > 0:30:51and say, "Well played," and, you know, be there.
0:30:51 > 0:30:56What I always remember and, I'm not always proud of our reactions,
0:30:56 > 0:31:03especially the reactions of our football supporters, but, in 1948,
0:31:03 > 0:31:09when Bradman's side rolled over us like a steamroller,
0:31:09 > 0:31:14and there was the outside chance to win at Headingley,
0:31:14 > 0:31:17and we missed it, we dropped two crucial catches.
0:31:17 > 0:31:19We didn't quite have the side to do it.
0:31:19 > 0:31:22Above all, I don't think we believed we could win.
0:31:22 > 0:31:25And then they came to the Oval.
0:31:25 > 0:31:28And they won. And the cheers, the farewell for Bradman
0:31:28 > 0:31:33and the cheers for the side were so, so generous,
0:31:33 > 0:31:38I'd never been prouder of an English crowd of any sort in my life.
0:31:38 > 0:31:44And they haven't often shown us that kind of generosity.
0:31:49 > 0:31:52It's hard, if you've been trying, and you're combative
0:31:52 > 0:31:55and you're competitive and you're a good performer.
0:31:55 > 0:31:59It's very, very hard to lose easy.
0:31:59 > 0:32:02I remember that...
0:32:02 > 0:32:06Was it the '57 West Indies side that lost and, suddenly,
0:32:06 > 0:32:08after the Oval test, they all disappeared.
0:32:08 > 0:32:11There was no grumble, no complaint.
0:32:11 > 0:32:14But when everybody thought we were going to have a party now,
0:32:14 > 0:32:16we can fetch the bottle and they'd gone.
0:32:16 > 0:32:19Well, I didn't find the Australian players like this.
0:32:19 > 0:32:22- The public, perhaps, but not the players.- No.
0:32:24 > 0:32:29And another thing I will always remember is that
0:32:29 > 0:32:32great West Indian win of 1950.
0:32:32 > 0:32:34You know, the Ramadhin and Valentine team.
0:32:34 > 0:32:39And how an originally stunned English public,
0:32:39 > 0:32:43and, by heaven, they were stunned, read the reports that West Indies
0:32:43 > 0:32:48had won so many series over there, but they'd never won any here.
0:32:48 > 0:32:51And then they came and...
0:32:51 > 0:32:56I'm not sure, moved as the West Indian spectators were at Lord's
0:32:56 > 0:33:01when they coined Ramadhin and Valentine and all this,
0:33:01 > 0:33:05I'm not sure that, in many respects, the English spectators,
0:33:05 > 0:33:10- once they'd got over their surprise, weren't even more impressed.- Mm.
0:33:10 > 0:33:13They were a funny couple, weren't they?
0:33:13 > 0:33:16Those two on the boat over, the rest of the team spent
0:33:16 > 0:33:19much of the time teaching them to sign their autographs.
0:33:19 > 0:33:22They said it didn't matter whether they could bowl or not,
0:33:22 > 0:33:25but in England, they got to sign their autographs.
0:33:26 > 0:33:31Garfield Sobers said to Charlie Davies when he came over,
0:33:31 > 0:33:35"Charlie," he said, "if you're going to be an English county cricketer,
0:33:35 > 0:33:38"you won't qualify until you've eaten half a ton of lettuce."
0:33:41 > 0:33:45You must have had enough county ground lunches to know how deadly true that is.
0:33:45 > 0:33:47Good ones were... I mean, not true at Lord's, though.
0:33:47 > 0:33:51- No.- Marvellous lunches there. - Lord's were very good.- Very good.
0:33:51 > 0:33:55I always liked that story of Ted Dexter saying,
0:33:55 > 0:33:59when he was Test captain, "Why do we always have to give them this hot
0:33:59 > 0:34:02"tomato soup and things like this in hot weather?"
0:34:02 > 0:34:07"Why don't we give a nice, well-chilled, cold consomme?"
0:34:07 > 0:34:10So they duly served this and the Australians, to a man,
0:34:10 > 0:34:12complained that the soup was cold!
0:34:15 > 0:34:17I've always cherished that.
0:34:17 > 0:34:21I've never found it a necessity, funny.
0:34:21 > 0:34:25You see, I've worked in radio and television and never known,
0:34:25 > 0:34:27really, very much about either.
0:34:27 > 0:34:29I remember when I was a little boy and my father made
0:34:29 > 0:34:34our first crystal set, listening to a banjo in the earphones.
0:34:34 > 0:34:37But then, you see, I used to go out in the evenings,
0:34:37 > 0:34:39playing cricket, playing football.
0:34:40 > 0:34:45Playing bridge in my bridge-playing phase.
0:34:45 > 0:34:47Then courting.
0:34:47 > 0:34:50Then leaving home and going into digs
0:34:50 > 0:34:53when they didn't want you in their room, listening to their radio.
0:34:53 > 0:34:58And then I married, but then came the war.
0:34:58 > 0:35:01So you didn't much look in or listen in.
0:35:01 > 0:35:06And, after the war, it was a question of working,
0:35:06 > 0:35:10going to London and being all eyes and ears for London.
0:35:11 > 0:35:16And then, this influence of the French, so I've never really
0:35:16 > 0:35:21much listened to radio or looked at television, except the Today programme
0:35:21 > 0:35:26in the mornings which is the ideal bathroom compassion.
0:35:26 > 0:35:30I mean, you can shave, shampoo,
0:35:30 > 0:35:33think, or anything you like.
0:35:33 > 0:35:38Stand on your head while that's on. I find it infinitely entertaining.
0:35:38 > 0:35:42But, otherwise, that and the 5.40 news.
0:35:42 > 0:35:44And that's it.
0:35:44 > 0:35:46For the rest, you know, work through the day
0:35:46 > 0:35:49and dine through the evening.
0:35:50 > 0:35:53Do you use a video? I mean, do you ever think there's something
0:35:53 > 0:35:56you'd really like to be able to see at your leisure?
0:35:56 > 0:35:59I often think that, but I always forget to do it.
0:35:59 > 0:36:05It's rather like that silly story about the Irish video recorder
0:36:05 > 0:36:10that records programmes you don't like and plays them back when you're out.
0:36:10 > 0:36:14I've always thought that Ideal arrangement.
0:36:14 > 0:36:17No, I ought to.
0:36:17 > 0:36:19I looked at the series of John Betjeman programmes.
0:36:19 > 0:36:23I did remember to do that quite faithfully.
0:36:23 > 0:36:26But that's the only series I've really ever looked at.
0:36:26 > 0:36:30- He was a good friend of yours, wasn't he? Or he is.- Yes.
0:36:30 > 0:36:33Er...immense influence on me.
0:36:33 > 0:36:36I mean, I think I would never have tried to write poetry
0:36:36 > 0:36:38if it hadn't been for him.
0:36:38 > 0:36:42And the first anthology I ever made, with George Hamilton,
0:36:42 > 0:36:48was based on the Betjeman topographical poetic theme.
0:36:48 > 0:36:54And my middle son's godfather,
0:36:54 > 0:36:56I see him from time to time,
0:36:56 > 0:37:01he's a very pretty thirst in champagne in his old age.
0:37:01 > 0:37:05He messed about with whisky and things like that at one time.
0:37:05 > 0:37:09But now I believe he actually knows the grande marque one from the other
0:37:09 > 0:37:13and you've got to be very careful what you take there for him to drink.
0:37:13 > 0:37:19But always a funny man with an immense streak of sincerity
0:37:19 > 0:37:22and depth of feeling.
0:37:22 > 0:37:27And as independent a thinker as I suppose there's been in this century in Britain.
0:37:27 > 0:37:32- And you shared quite a few of his views, didn't you, as well?- Yes.
0:37:32 > 0:37:36I mean, a lot of your poetry was about English towns and places,
0:37:36 > 0:37:38and crafts and...
0:37:38 > 0:37:39Yes. Yes, indeed.
0:37:39 > 0:37:43As I say, an immense influence on me in that respect.
0:37:43 > 0:37:47I only wish I'd been as good as he is.
0:37:47 > 0:37:52I imagine that it also actually influenced what you did do creatively
0:37:52 > 0:37:56- which was, amongst other things, broadcast on cricket.- Yes.
0:37:56 > 0:38:02You see, the good poet, in his imagery, defines.
0:38:02 > 0:38:08He describes precisely. He doesn't say, "That was a good stroke.
0:38:08 > 0:38:12"This is a pretty cricket ground. This is a good-looking man."
0:38:12 > 0:38:17He says what is a poised, graceful, well-timed,
0:38:17 > 0:38:20powerful - or whatever - stroke.
0:38:20 > 0:38:25"This is an old-fashioned looking ground, a leafy, tree-y ground
0:38:25 > 0:38:27"with an Edwardian pavilion,
0:38:27 > 0:38:31"or a Victorian pavilion, or a modern pavilion."
0:38:31 > 0:38:35And I think if you're trying to describe things to people,
0:38:35 > 0:38:38that's the sort of thing you've got to say in a commentary.
0:38:38 > 0:38:40Say what you see.
0:38:40 > 0:38:42You see, it's easy to be a commentator
0:38:42 > 0:38:44and bring out statistics.
0:38:44 > 0:38:47And a terrific number of people are vastly interested in statistics.
0:38:47 > 0:38:50You know, he wants so many runs to do so and so.
0:38:50 > 0:38:53And I always had Bill Frindall to tell me that. But, for me,
0:38:53 > 0:38:58it was in through the eyes and out through the mouth and...
0:38:58 > 0:39:02- Something happened in between! - There was a digestion process, yes,
0:39:02 > 0:39:05because there was an editing process.
0:39:05 > 0:39:08But you say what you see.
0:39:08 > 0:39:12- Every man sees something different. - Mm-hm.
0:39:12 > 0:39:16In fact, in my younger days, I had been known to observe
0:39:16 > 0:39:20attractive young women walking round the ground and that type of thing.
0:39:20 > 0:39:22In your younger days only, of course!
0:39:25 > 0:39:30But I... Well, this is a big topic but, I mean,
0:39:30 > 0:39:34I read that somebody said of you, in your early days at the BBC,
0:39:34 > 0:39:38that you had a superior mind and a vulgar voice.
0:39:38 > 0:39:41That's right.
0:39:41 > 0:39:46And I wondered if people tried to change you from being what you were.
0:39:46 > 0:39:49Well, I tried to change my voice once.
0:39:50 > 0:39:55On the Thursday, I was producing a programme and Val Dyall came in.
0:39:55 > 0:39:56Valentine Dyall.
0:39:58 > 0:40:01And after a bit he said, "John."
0:40:01 > 0:40:03I said, "Yes?"
0:40:03 > 0:40:07He said, "Are you trying to do something to your voice?"
0:40:07 > 0:40:12I said, "Well, I'm trying, you know, not to sound too much like a country bumpkin.
0:40:12 > 0:40:16"You know, I'd like to get onto a sort of standard southern English."
0:40:16 > 0:40:20He said, "You fool! Everybody in this studio can speak that."
0:40:20 > 0:40:23"You're the only one who can speak authentic Hampshire."
0:40:23 > 0:40:26He said, "Don't, for God's sake, throw that away."
0:40:26 > 0:40:30And I thought, "Well, I suppose he's right and it's going to seem a bit of an effort."
0:40:30 > 0:40:34You do it anyway, you know. I went back home once, I remember.
0:40:34 > 0:40:40I'd been to the police training school and I'd just come back,
0:40:40 > 0:40:45so I'd been to the Birmingham police training school for the Southampton force,
0:40:45 > 0:40:47and I'd been back about a month.
0:40:47 > 0:40:50So I'd been away from home for four months.
0:40:50 > 0:40:55My mother said, "You better go out and see the men."
0:40:55 > 0:40:58And these were the men who were grass-cutting outside, you see.
0:40:58 > 0:41:00So I went out and said hello and how were they.
0:41:00 > 0:41:03And they quizzed me about Southampton.
0:41:03 > 0:41:07Was it true there were trains - they meant trams - running through the streets.
0:41:07 > 0:41:09These were very old men.
0:41:09 > 0:41:12I said, "Yes, it was." And this went on and on.
0:41:12 > 0:41:15And after a bit, one of them looked me and he said,
0:41:15 > 0:41:19"And what be this here London talk you been putting on, then, eh?"
0:41:19 > 0:41:22HE LAUGHS
0:41:22 > 0:41:28Who'd have thought that, 50 years ago, mine was a London talk.
0:41:30 > 0:41:32But, er...
0:41:33 > 0:41:37But the first recording I ever made,
0:41:37 > 0:41:40I did a live programme first,
0:41:40 > 0:41:43then I was asked to come on Country Magazine.
0:41:43 > 0:41:49And we knew there was a repeat going out at half past five in the morning overseas.
0:41:49 > 0:41:52It took me a lot to get out of bed at that time.
0:41:52 > 0:41:55We got up, got out and switched this on.
0:41:57 > 0:42:02And I can imagine my face fell. I said, "Oh, dear. Oh, dear."
0:42:02 > 0:42:04My wife said, "What's the matter?"
0:42:04 > 0:42:08I said, "Well, that's the script I did.
0:42:08 > 0:42:12"That's the script, but they've got this country chap reading it."
0:42:12 > 0:42:17So she threw her head back laughing and said, "That's you, you fool!"
0:42:17 > 0:42:21I'd never heard my recorded voice. I never dreamt it was like that.
0:42:21 > 0:42:25I think it's a shock for everyone, isn't it? The first time you hear it.
0:42:25 > 0:42:27But this seemed to me to mean I was ruined forever.
0:42:27 > 0:42:31I was never going to get this career in broadcasting I'd come to dream about.
0:42:34 > 0:42:38But, with a bit of good advice, and with your own personality,
0:42:38 > 0:42:41you stuck with it and you cut your own path, really, didn't you?
0:42:41 > 0:42:44It was a new thing, what you were doing, wasn't it?
0:42:44 > 0:42:47- Certainly in sport. - It was in a way, yes.
0:42:47 > 0:42:50You see, Howard Marshall had done it.
0:42:50 > 0:42:54Howard Marshall - we used to play back the discs sometimes - a bit behind the play.
0:42:54 > 0:42:59There'd never been, I think, previously,
0:42:59 > 0:43:04an attempt at precise visual description.
0:43:04 > 0:43:08He used to read out the square number on a soccer ground.
0:43:08 > 0:43:12But you didn't get any idea. You didn't, it seems to me...
0:43:12 > 0:43:14After I went on the instructional staff,
0:43:14 > 0:43:18I used to get every record I could and play 'em back.
0:43:18 > 0:43:25But I couldn't find that anybody had any immense visual urge.
0:43:25 > 0:43:27I mean, you got facts and details of play
0:43:27 > 0:43:30and what was happening at the event.
0:43:30 > 0:43:33Heaven knows, that's more important, but...
0:43:35 > 0:43:39I don't know. It's just your own particular bent, I suppose.
0:43:40 > 0:43:45You expose your own mind and you never do it more than in commentary,
0:43:45 > 0:43:48when you're speaking absolutely ad-lib
0:43:48 > 0:43:52and you don't know what's going to happen in the next second.
0:43:52 > 0:43:54It's got to come out and...
0:43:55 > 0:44:00The funny thing was, I used to find that
0:44:00 > 0:44:06if I was writing about a day's play, I tended not to remember
0:44:06 > 0:44:11the play that I'd done a commentary on, because that went in and out.
0:44:11 > 0:44:13It's funny. You retained other things.
0:44:13 > 0:44:16But you had to cast your mind back. It was a deliberate effort
0:44:16 > 0:44:19to pick up what you'd done the commentary on.
0:44:19 > 0:44:23It's almost as if you'd purged yourself of it.
0:44:23 > 0:44:27- It's about as immediate as you can get, isn't it?- yes.
0:44:27 > 0:44:32Yes. I always used to think if you could get the man caught at the wicket
0:44:32 > 0:44:35before the crowd shouted, you were up with the ball.
0:44:37 > 0:44:39Yes, I rather liked those...
0:44:39 > 0:44:42Sometimes something I find myself doing sometimes is,
0:44:42 > 0:44:45where there's a photograph in a cricket book, of a dismissal,
0:44:45 > 0:44:48to see the beginnings of recognition in the crowd...
0:44:48 > 0:44:50- Yes.- They're just... - Just starting to...
0:44:50 > 0:44:54Yes, that's right. And the stump's by then on the ground.
0:44:54 > 0:44:56- Or the man's already started to walk.- Yeah.
0:44:59 > 0:45:04Yes, it's funny. There's nothing in cricket, to my mind,
0:45:04 > 0:45:06not even a spectacular six,
0:45:06 > 0:45:10- there's nothing so exciting as the fall of the wicket.- Hm, I agree.
0:45:10 > 0:45:13And when a side is running through another's batting
0:45:13 > 0:45:17and wickets are going down quickly, and you hear this almost,
0:45:17 > 0:45:20almost like the baying of a pack of hounds every time a wicket falls.
0:45:20 > 0:45:23And they're hounding the side that's being bowled out.
0:45:23 > 0:45:28I often think that sides are bowled out for small totals
0:45:28 > 0:45:32almost psychologically, after the first three or four wickets are down.
0:45:32 > 0:45:37Then you can feel the crowd waiting to roar again.
0:45:37 > 0:45:44It used to be like this at the Oval when Bedser, Loader, Surridge,
0:45:44 > 0:45:50Lock, Laker, with Eric Bedser in reserve, were bowling out sides,
0:45:50 > 0:45:55when they first started to win the championship before the crowds dwindled.
0:45:55 > 0:45:59We used to go there, almost like the crowd at a gladiatorial contest,
0:45:59 > 0:46:02to watch the other side torn to pieces.
0:46:02 > 0:46:07Well, that reminds me of the famous '74/75 series in Australia
0:46:07 > 0:46:11when Lillee and Thomson demolished us on some bad wickets.
0:46:11 > 0:46:15The England players used to refer, towards the end of the series,
0:46:15 > 0:46:19and I think this wasn't just healthy hangdog humour,
0:46:19 > 0:46:24they used to refer to the seat reserved for the next batsmen in as the condemned cell.
0:46:25 > 0:46:27I think they got the message pretty well.
0:46:27 > 0:46:29Yes.
0:46:29 > 0:46:34There's no doubt that communicates to a crowd more than anything else,
0:46:34 > 0:46:37the destruction of the opponents.
0:46:37 > 0:46:40Hitting a six, all right, spectacular. Beautiful.
0:46:40 > 0:46:47We've seen, you know, that glorious stroke onto the roof of the...
0:46:47 > 0:46:50Lord's pavilion, by Hughes.
0:46:50 > 0:46:57But there's nothing quite to compare with the bowling rout of a side.
0:46:59 > 0:47:03- Shall we talk about South Africa? - Yes. Why not?
0:47:03 > 0:47:07I mean, we got to know each other partly at the time of
0:47:07 > 0:47:12the D'Oliviera affair, as it could be called, in 1969.
0:47:14 > 0:47:17And, of course, your experience of South Africa, and your contacts
0:47:17 > 0:47:20with South Africa, went a long way back before that, didn't they?
0:47:20 > 0:47:27Yes, I went in '48/9 and I was desperately shocked by what I saw there.
0:47:27 > 0:47:32I never dreamt that these things went on.
0:47:32 > 0:47:36I'd heard lip service paid to the awfulness but, you see,
0:47:36 > 0:47:38this was just the time
0:47:38 > 0:47:43when the first nationalist government of Dr Malan was returned.
0:47:44 > 0:47:48And I saw and heard some quite terrible things
0:47:48 > 0:47:52about what happened to ordinary black people there.
0:47:52 > 0:47:53And I didn't know what to do.
0:47:53 > 0:47:56And I still haven't really done much about it.
0:47:56 > 0:47:59I haven't done as much as I ought to have done.
0:47:59 > 0:48:03And, you see, it's so easy, especially for English people,
0:48:03 > 0:48:06especially for cricketers, to go to South Africa
0:48:06 > 0:48:09and not see what goes on because it's not flaunted.
0:48:09 > 0:48:11It's not pushed under their noses.
0:48:11 > 0:48:15You'd have great difficulty in finding a taxi driver, sometimes,
0:48:15 > 0:48:19who would take you to these compounds and, er...
0:48:19 > 0:48:23And I thought, perhaps, I'd done something
0:48:23 > 0:48:26when I helped bring Basil D'Oliviera to this country.
0:48:26 > 0:48:30And I think that did do something that perhaps you can't see.
0:48:30 > 0:48:33It must have made a lot of people convinced
0:48:33 > 0:48:36that their cause wasn't quite lost.
0:48:36 > 0:48:40If one could do it, in a way, he stood for them all.
0:48:40 > 0:48:43But then, you see, there's been a clampdown since.
0:48:43 > 0:48:46A certain amount of liberal thinking,
0:48:46 > 0:48:50and a certain amount of increased repression.
0:48:50 > 0:48:54Old Smuts was so clever. He used to give them a fresh liberty every year.
0:48:54 > 0:48:57I mean, it would've taken 200 years for them to be really free.
0:48:57 > 0:49:01But he didn't impose fresh restrictions and fresh repressions,
0:49:01 > 0:49:05as the nationalist government has done since and this is distressing.
0:49:05 > 0:49:07It's distressing to think about it.
0:49:11 > 0:49:12I don't know what the answer is.
0:49:12 > 0:49:15Except, perhaps, the most appalling one of all,
0:49:15 > 0:49:18that, you know, one can't lay one's tongue to.
0:49:20 > 0:49:22Well, it's going to be explosive in the end,
0:49:22 > 0:49:24I feel all too sure of that.
0:49:28 > 0:49:33It's an important thing you did, to help to be responsible for getting Basil D'Oliviera to come to England.
0:49:33 > 0:49:35How did that happen?
0:49:35 > 0:49:39Well, out of the blue, I got this letter from a young man,
0:49:39 > 0:49:43beautifully written in green ink, terribly courteous correspondence,
0:49:43 > 0:49:46saying how much he loved cricket and how much he'd like to learn
0:49:46 > 0:49:50to be a coach and qualify to be a coach in England
0:49:50 > 0:49:54so that he could go back to South Africa and teach his own people.
0:49:54 > 0:49:59So, I thought I'd never heard of anything much more hopeless, really.
0:50:01 > 0:50:03There was such charm in the letter.
0:50:03 > 0:50:06I went on and replied to him to see what we could work out, you see.
0:50:06 > 0:50:09And, in the end, I said, "Well, how good a player are you?
0:50:09 > 0:50:13"Because I think, if you want to come here, probably you'd only help us as a player."
0:50:13 > 0:50:16He sent me some pretty remarkable statistics of his performances
0:50:16 > 0:50:19for Cape Coloureds and so on.
0:50:19 > 0:50:23And he'd gone as high as he could in cricket, for a Cape Coloured.
0:50:25 > 0:50:27And I really began to give up hope.
0:50:30 > 0:50:33People just couldn't see.
0:50:33 > 0:50:38I mean, if I said, "Look, this chap made 286, so many sixes..."
0:50:38 > 0:50:42They'd say, "Well, it must have been an absolutely plum wicket."
0:50:42 > 0:50:44"Well, in the same match, he took six for 16."
0:50:44 > 0:50:47And they'd say, "Oh, it must have been an awful wicket.
0:50:47 > 0:50:50"Must've been a bad batting side." They wanted it both ways.
0:50:50 > 0:50:55Well, then, Alan Oakman and Pete Sainsbury and Jim Gray
0:50:55 > 0:50:57went and played in a match and they saw him play.
0:50:57 > 0:51:00And they came back and I said, "Well, what's he like?"
0:51:00 > 0:51:03And they said, "Well, he's a very, very gifted player."
0:51:03 > 0:51:05"Very talented. A bit crude."
0:51:05 > 0:51:07"But still, you know, first-class."
0:51:09 > 0:51:14Even then, I couldn't get anywhere and John Kay helped me immensely,
0:51:14 > 0:51:18Manchester Evening News and a Lancashire league expert and player.
0:51:18 > 0:51:21And, all of a sudden, he came to me that his club,
0:51:21 > 0:51:27they'd got rid of Gilchrist and had been trying rather secretly
0:51:27 > 0:51:32to sign on Wes Hall, and, at the last minute, Wes let 'em down.
0:51:34 > 0:51:39So he rang me up and he said, "Look, if your chap wants a job, he can come."
0:51:39 > 0:51:43He suggested a wage figure which was very low.
0:51:43 > 0:51:46Now, this had been going on now for six years.
0:51:48 > 0:51:51Eventually I wrote and said, "Look, the chance has come.
0:51:51 > 0:51:55"I don't think it'll ever come again. I know the money is not good.
0:51:55 > 0:52:00"But if you want to come, you must say yes to this and come."
0:52:00 > 0:52:04He decided to. I made a whip-round in the local village and he came.
0:52:04 > 0:52:08Made a terrible start, poor kid. Couldn't get a run for a month.
0:52:08 > 0:52:13He'd never seen these slow, sodden, muddy wickets. Anything like it.
0:52:13 > 0:52:18And then, all of a sudden, everything came good for him in May, end of May.
0:52:18 > 0:52:24And he actually finished with more runs than Garfield Sobers in that league, in his first season.
0:52:24 > 0:52:27And, I mean...
0:52:27 > 0:52:31if you'd seen - I mean, I almost wept - his amazement
0:52:31 > 0:52:33at sitting down to eat with white people
0:52:33 > 0:52:39in the dining car of the train, at the airport and so on.
0:52:39 > 0:52:44And yet, he kept utter and absolute dignity and good nature.
0:52:44 > 0:52:48And, I think, through all the troubles, probably better than anybody else.
0:52:48 > 0:52:53And, well, as you know, he became a British citizen.
0:52:53 > 0:52:57He played for England. Shook hands with the Queen.
0:52:57 > 0:53:00And he never, to my mind, made a fool of himself,
0:53:00 > 0:53:03which would have been so easy.
0:53:03 > 0:53:08But I just think he behaved with infinite dignity.
0:53:08 > 0:53:12You see, what I think was important about Basil was that
0:53:12 > 0:53:15he gave hope to his own people. Millions of them.
0:53:15 > 0:53:18It isn't going to happen to them but they knew there was hope.
0:53:18 > 0:53:22It was possible, if not for them, for their children. Or their children's children.
0:53:22 > 0:53:24And this was the important thing about him coming here.
0:53:24 > 0:53:27To prove that it wasn't inevitably bondage.
0:53:27 > 0:53:31Mind you, I think anybody else might find it a bit difficult to get out.
0:53:31 > 0:53:34But he did that and he did show them.
0:53:34 > 0:53:38He was not only dignified, he was actually reticent, wasn't he?
0:53:38 > 0:53:44- Yes, he was.- I mean, I remember feeling I wished he would come out with what he felt about it.
0:53:44 > 0:53:51And I had no idea until recently, after the big row had subsided,
0:53:51 > 0:53:54- just how passionately he always felt. - My word, he did.
0:53:54 > 0:53:57And people used to try to goad him into exploding about it and he wouldn't.
0:53:57 > 0:54:01This was where the dignity was immense because
0:54:01 > 0:54:04anybody who's lived under that kind of bondage has got to hate it.
0:54:04 > 0:54:06And he never showed that hate.
0:54:06 > 0:54:12From the cricket point of view, how can you see Test cricket surviving, hanging on?
0:54:12 > 0:54:15I mean, it's a slender thread all the time, isn't it?
0:54:15 > 0:54:17Desperately so, yes.
0:54:17 > 0:54:18Because of the men, of course,
0:54:18 > 0:54:22who will do anything for money, even a little money.
0:54:22 > 0:54:28But this agreement was voluntarily entered.
0:54:28 > 0:54:35And I think we must stand by it. And, if we do, I'm also sure that
0:54:35 > 0:54:41that is the likeliest way of producing an improvement.
0:54:41 > 0:54:46- It's the way that has produced some minor improvements in the last 10 years or 12 years.- Yes.
0:54:46 > 0:54:49It's the only thing that's reversed the tide.
0:54:49 > 0:54:53And it's very questionable how far the tide has been reversed.
0:54:53 > 0:54:57But it's been just pushed back a little bit in some areas.
0:55:03 > 0:55:06- You wouldn't want to go again? - I'd never go again.
0:55:06 > 0:55:08Well, I was on the last MCC tour there,
0:55:08 > 0:55:11as a young hopeful who did all right for a while
0:55:11 > 0:55:15and then had a terrible end to the tour, from a cricket point of view.
0:55:15 > 0:55:20But I stayed on and went around and saw whatever I could see.
0:55:22 > 0:55:25The banta stands and the Transkei.
0:55:25 > 0:55:29And met politicians of different hues.
0:55:29 > 0:55:33Political hues, as well as visible ones.
0:55:33 > 0:55:36And, like you, I mean, I was appalled.
0:55:36 > 0:55:40It was much worse than I'd imagined.
0:55:40 > 0:55:44And that was what made me feel that I didn't really want to have anything to do with it again.
0:55:44 > 0:55:46And that I didn't know how to make any difference.
0:55:46 > 0:55:49But I didn't want to have any more to do with it than I had to.
0:55:49 > 0:55:53And the other thing I felt was that we're trying, in this country,
0:55:53 > 0:55:56to be multi-racial in every way
0:55:56 > 0:56:03and it's also a symbol for black people in England, and Great Britain,
0:56:03 > 0:56:10that we don't put South Africa, and dealing with South Africa, first.
0:56:10 > 0:56:15In a sense, I'm sure that's absolutely true because
0:56:15 > 0:56:19one of the things that few people ever mention is the great necessity,
0:56:19 > 0:56:25in an increasingly multi-racial society, to convince of our sincerity.
0:56:25 > 0:56:32And, if this were done, there'd be far less doubt, far less anxiety,
0:56:32 > 0:56:35on the part of the people coming in, especially from the West Indies,
0:56:35 > 0:56:38as to, in fact, where we do stand.
0:56:46 > 0:56:53And to say that we must keep politics out of sport is ludicrous.
0:56:53 > 0:57:00Politics control everything we do, whether it's our attitude to sport,
0:57:00 > 0:57:04to money that's made available for sport.
0:57:04 > 0:57:07Literature. What we eat. What we drink.
0:57:07 > 0:57:12What is prohibited coming into the country that we might eat or drink.
0:57:12 > 0:57:15Absolutely everything we do is controlled by politics.
0:57:15 > 0:57:18It's impossible to say that sport isn't, or can't be.
0:57:18 > 0:57:20It must be. It always is.
0:57:20 > 0:57:23In fact, it's only when you live in a relatively free society that
0:57:23 > 0:57:25you don't notice it, isn't it?
0:57:26 > 0:57:28The luxury of not noticing it.
0:57:32 > 0:57:35Pushes him out on the off-side. He's caught. Caught and bowled.
0:57:37 > 0:57:39At second slip.
0:57:39 > 0:57:41He was one of those who'd had
0:57:41 > 0:57:43none of the booty until then.
0:57:43 > 0:57:45Massie's technique, bowling,
0:57:45 > 0:57:47sliding it across the right-hander,
0:57:47 > 0:57:49has worked again and this is
0:57:49 > 0:57:51a record that puts him on his own,
0:57:51 > 0:57:54taking 13 wickets in his first...
0:57:54 > 0:57:55COMMENTARY FADES